48. Columbine & Charlie Kirk: The Impact of Christian Martyrdom

Summary

The Tim & April Show

Podcast: The Tim & April Show
Host: The New Evangelicals
Episode 48: Columbine & Charlie Kirk: The Impact of Christian Martyrdom
Date: September 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy dive deep into the aftermath of the assassination of right-wing activist Charlie Kirk, exploring how narratives of Christian martyrdom are weaponized within evangelical and Christian nationalist circles. They critically trace the history and impact of martyrdom myth-making, from the mythologizing of Columbine’s Cassie Bernal to contemporary martyr narratives around culture war figures like Kirk. The episode analyzes how persecution complexes form, their relation to American evangelical culture, and the potential dangers of radicalization for the next generation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rapture Predictions and Evangelical Apocalypse Narratives

• (01:27–03:30) The hosts begin with tongue-in-cheek commentary on perennial rapture predictions, rooted in the annual convergence of apocalyptic prophecy chatter and Jewish holidays like Rosh Hashanah.
• April: “I'm in a bunch of Rapture Facebook groups just to keep an eye on them. It always goes on like red alert, high alert for rapture around this time ... They always think the rapture is going to come around a Jewish holiday.”
• Tim highlights the ongoing pattern of failed rapture predictions, recalling Harold Camping and mass paranoia stretching back to the ’80s.

Immediate Response to Charlie Kirk’s Assassination

• (05:09–07:50) Strong, unambiguous condemnation of the violent act:
  • April: “We are against gun violence no matter who is it is targeting.” (05:17)
  • Tim: “No one wants, no one in the circles that I operate in ... wants things like this to be happening in our country, period. Doesn't matter what they stand for.” (06:07)
• The hosts reflect on the predictably hyper-partisan reactions and politicization:
  • Tim: “As we saw people on the right immediately, like the second it happened, blamed the entire left for it, including our own president. So that certainly didn't help.” (07:05)
  • They stress that such violence “will only make things worse, like the temperature is only going to increase.”

The Martyrdom of Charlie Kirk & Dangers of Myth-Making

• (08:35–11:01) April draws a parallel to past Christian martyr lore, notably around Columbine:
  • “A lot of Christians ... are turning Charlie Kirk into a saint and ... a Christian martyr. Mark Driscoll ... posted a picture of Charlie Kirk... 'the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.'” (09:18)
  • The hosts relate how mythologizing Kirk as a martyr is “troubling and dangerous,” especially considering his deeply divisive rhetoric.
  • April warns of the ripple effect: young, impressionable people might “go back and probably watch Charlie Kirk's work with the view of this man was a saint ... [his] words, to be clear, are white supremacist, they're racist, they're misogynistic, they're hateful. It's the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus.” (09:35)

Gun Violence, Political Inaction, & Desensitization

• (10:47–13:19) The conversation contextualizes Kirk’s assassination within America’s overwhelming gun violence, drawing attention to mass shootings, government inaction, and ingrained gun culture:
  • Tim: “Our politicians could put in ... gun safety and gun regulation ... not about possession, it's about gun safety ... keeping guns out of the public that don't need to be held by the public.” (11:22)
  • April: “I do hope ... maybe we can get some gun reform even if it’s in the honor of Charlie Kirk.” (12:55)

The Columbine Myth and Its Radicalizing Impact

• (13:19–16:39) April and Tim recount the trajectory of the Cassie Bernal story after Columbine — the oft-repeated but debunked tale of a student saying ‘yes’ to believing in God before being shot.
  • April: “It was used as a tool to radicalize teenagers across America ... We were asked the call to action: 'What if someone held a gun to your head?’” (14:58)
  • Both recall wrestling as teens with whether they would “die for God” and the subsequent anxiety and guilt.

The Persecution Complex in Evangelical America

• (16:39–19:59) They contextualize the martyr narrative in America's privileged evangelical setting:
  • Tim: “We're being told this as like white suburban Americans. ... We actually built so much, so many of the institutions that are protecting and out shaping culture. And we're worried that we're going to be in a place where we might have to die for our faith.” (18:30)
  • April emphasizes that this complex “did not start in 1999 with Columbine. It exploded after that. But the idea that that American Christians were persecuted has been a thing forever.” (20:00)

Narratives of Persecution, Martyrdom, and Christian Nationalism

• (23:03–27:50)
  • The hosts detail propaganda mechanisms in evangelical circles, including highly selective storytelling, creation of martyrs, and conflation of “biblical truth” with nationalist ideology.
  • April: “What they're actually standing up for is Christian nationalism ... most people perpetuate Christian nationalism, but they think they're just being good Christians.” (27:25)

Division in Christian Traditions Over Martyrdom

• (27:50–32:15)
  • Tim acknowledges being surprised by how many “rank and file white evangelicals” adopted martyr language about Kirk.
  • The stark difference between white evangelical and black church responses is highlighted:
    • “...other groups that have been historically marginalized by the rhetoric ... were very honest about how [Kirk’s] rhetoric ... has affected the black community.” (29:04)
  • April points out the asymmetry in assigning collective blame to “the left” after violence.

Radicalization & the Aftermath of Kirk’s Murder

• (32:15–36:29)
  • Tim shares evidence that Turning Point USA is harnessing Kirk’s murder for recruitment and fundraising:
    • “Turning Point USA is mass texting teenagers ... going full grift ahead to raise money by targeting teens for their allowance money.” (33:08)
  • They discuss the rise of targeted harassment campaigns, e.g. “CharliesMurderers.com” (34:23), and the use of such events to rally the base and entrench the persecution narrative.

Evangelical Militarization & Spiritual Warfare Language

• (36:29–42:49)
  • Analysis of childhood songs, metaphors (“Lord’s army”), and “spiritual warfare” framing that conditions kids into combative worldviews.
  • Tim: “The entire world that we grew up in ... is incredibly militarized.”
  • April: “My biggest concern is that this is going to radicalize more teenagers to be violent Christian nationalists. Or maybe not violent, but at least militant.”

Theological Conditioning: Hell, Guilt, and Child Indoctrination

• (42:49–51:52)
  • Grappling with the psychological toll of constant messaging: “you deserve to die,” hell threats, and the compulsion to “die to self.” The hosts play a clip of Jackie Hill Perry telling children, “You deserve to die because you're a sinner.”
  • April: “When you are taught that you are inherently evil and you must die to yourself. And these things are said to children...” (43:19)
  • Tim: “Telling a child...that if they don't pray this prayer and repent of their sins and they're gonna burn in hell forever when they die...that's vile, man. That is vile.” (58:04)

Creation & Maintenance of the Persecution Mindset

• (51:52–54:11)
  • Tim and April stress the disconnect between reality (Christian domination of American society) and the persecution narrative:
    • “There are hundreds of small political activist organizations funded by billionaires that were white Evangelicals influence Congress to write laws in favor of them. Most of Congress is Christian. Most presidents are Christian.” (52:31)
  • April: “Jesus was hated because he called out religious hypocrites and was radically inclusive of people that those in power did not want to include.” (53:38)

Christian Nationalism, Martyrdom, and Radicalization—2025 and Beyond

• (54:11–59:45)
  • Tim draws the explicit connection between current martyr narratives and Christian nationalism’s appetite for power and even violence:
    • “Christian nationalism ... as a group are more likely to embrace political violence ... This is the evolution of the Christian nationalist ideal.”
  • April: “I think that Charlie Kirk might be made into the next Cassie Bernal—like this generation’s Cassie Bernal.” (38:23)
  • They lament how quickly empathy is demanded for their “side” while being withheld from others—a double standard observable in political and church discourse.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• April, on the dangers of Christian martyr narratives:
  “To conflate someone like Charlie as a saint, as this godly, good Christian martyr is going to have very negative ripple effects....” (09:35)

• Tim, on media and the manufacturing of persecution:
  “This space curates the content that its adherents hear and See, it’s all filtered through these selective gatekeepers.... all, all that matters is that the narrative is believed. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not.” (25:00; 31:09)

• April, on being radicalized as a child:
  “I remember being a kid laying in bed at night fantasizing about that exact same scenario happening and then trying to decide if I could say yes... And then I'd ask God to forgive me.” (15:04)

• Tim, on the weaponization of martyr narratives:
  “It is consistently in these spaces, empathy for me, not for thee. ... All of a sudden now the same people that they targeted every day, the trans agenda, the queer people, the black people, DEI hires—all of a sudden, how dare you not have empathy for this person?” (32:15)

• April, on the asymmetry of assigning blame:
  “Notice when it's a white Christian nationalist that shoots someone ... I didn’t hear any condemnation of that entire group. It was just a deranged individual.” (31:35)

• Tim, on the formative impact of indoctrination:
  “Imagine being fed that story over and over and over again from age like 5 to like, 23 ... It’s incredibly compelling when you grow up in it. And that's all, you know. Incredibly.” (49:20)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:27 – Rapture prediction humor; context of “Rapture Day” in evangelical circles
• 05:09 – Reaction and condemnation of Charlie Kirk’s assassination
• 08:35 – Introduction of martyr narrative; Mark Driscoll quote and Tertullian reference
• 13:19 – The Columbine/Cassie Bernal martyr myth: impact on American evangelical youth
• 15:53 – “Would you die for your faith?” childhood anxiety and faith formation
• 27:50 – The selective narrative curation within Christian nationalism
• 33:08 – Turning Point USA’s fundraising and recruitment on Kirk’s death
• 34:23 – Harassment campaigns (CharliesMurderers.com) and “cancel culture” hypocrisy
• 42:49 – Clip: Jackie Hill Perry tells children “You deserve to die...”
• 51:52 – Enumeration of Christian privilege in America against the persecution narrative
• 58:04 – Tim: “That is vile, man. That is vile. I'm sorry, that's horrible.” (on hell threats to children)
• 66:51 – April on disillusionment and grief as evangelicals see their communities lionize Kirk
• 70:40 – Tim’s meeting with Charlie Kirk’s pastor and realization of deep differences
• 74:52 – Hope for deconstruction: new waves of people waking up to Christian nationalism

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Episode Takeaways

• The Myth of Christian Persecution: Despite evangelical dominance in American religious and political life, a mythology of marginalization and martyrdom is actively constructed and propagated.
• Martyr Narratives as a Tool of Power: Myth-making around figures like Cassie Bernal and Charlie Kirk serves to radicalize, militarize, and entrench the evangelical base, with increasingly nationalist overtones.
• Radicalization Risks: The weaponizing of martyrdom, apocalyptic rhetoric, and persecution complexes is likely to radicalize young people, either into militant activism or intense psychological trauma.
• Empathy & Hypocrisy: There’s a persistent double standard in empathy—extended to ingroup martyrs, denied to outgroup victims. Calls for unity and love are mostly one-sided.
• Encouragement to Listeners: Trust your instincts, don't let yourself be gaslit by communities weaponizing faith for power, and seek solidarity with those resisting Christian nationalism.

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Closing Note

Tim and April urge deconstructing listeners not to lose hope: there is a widening awareness of the dangers of Christian nationalism. They invite listeners to continue questioning, loving radically, and pursuing a compassionate, justice-oriented Christian faith.

Transcript

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new Evangelicals production at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.

[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. My name is April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I am Tim Whitaker, and we are.

[April Ajoy]

The Tim and April of the Tim and April Show. What is today? We are recording this the week before this airs. So this is going to air September 23rd? Yep, 2025. Which is the Rapture Day.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hey, congrats. Happy Rapture to you. You know what? It doesn't even matter that we're recording this. We are going to be sucked up into the clouds while everyone else is going to burn in hell because the.

[April Ajoy]

Rapture's happening unless we are left behind, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's true. So maybe we are still here and things are really bad.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know. But to be fair, it's a twofer. The Rapture is either going to be the 23rd or the 24th. So if you're still here watching this, do not fret. Tomorrow might be the Rapture could go either way. Yeah, we'll get into that in a little bit because there is actually like a lot of people prophesying and predicting that the Rapture is going to happen today and tomorrow. And we have more to say about that.

[Tim Whitaker]

We do. We do not. Our first rodeo friends. No, not our first time around this carousel. Many, many.

[April Ajoy]

I know we've survived a couple just since you and I have started hosting together. Yes, last year was Eclipse. Was survived that one. 2012 was a big one. I don't if you remember that one. Oh, yeah, Y2K. But I do every year around this time around August, September, the Rapture Talk. And I'm in a bunch of Rapture Facebook groups just to keep an eye on them. It always goes on like red alert, high alert for rapture around this time because they conflate it with the Feast of Trumpets and what is it? Rosh Hashanah. Is that the Jewish holiday? Hold on, make sure I'm saying that right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Good call, good call. Before things look real bad for us on this show.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, Rosh Hashanah, I think, yeah, I think I'm right. It's a Jewish holiday and they conflate. They always think the rapture is going to come around as Jewish holiday, which there's like always this conflation because of the biblical prophecies of Israel.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. Of course.

[April Ajoy]

Which is a whole other.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course the, the appropriation is like absurd. The cultural appropriation of Jewish like culture and like you know, just the understanding of their own text into the white evangelical rapture machine is, it is like it's, it's something to behold. I was going to say that the first rapture I ever survived was in my memory was Harold Camping's prediction. Remember Harold Camping? He had this real deep voice and talked like this on the radio and he would answer question about the Bible. He had very large ears. I remember that as a child. And yeah, he was someone who predicted the end of the world like multiple times and was wrong, but he was so convincing. Some people sold their entire, you know, like they, they sold their houses, all of their material possessions and Harold was wrong. Yeah, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Before that. Do you remember that book, 88 Reasons the Rapture Will Happen in 1988.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. I was born in 88, so thank God it didn't happen then.

[April Ajoy]

I was also born in 88.

[Tim Whitaker]

Anyway. Yeah, we survived a lot of raptures. That's all we're trying to tell you. I wouldn't be too worried about the next couple predictions. We're going to be okay. Most likely.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what we kind of wanted to talk about today, so we're. So we're recording this on a Monday. The Monday after Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And which to be clear, we weren't live last week because we had already scheduled to not be live.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

So we want to first of all fully condemn that violent. Yes, murder like we are against gun violence no matter who is it is targeting.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thousand percent. It's. This is, this isn't even like a question for us. Like we don't want people being assassinated on college campuses. We don't want children being mass slaughtered in schools. We don't want gun violence in this country. And as April and I have said many, many times, we have more guns than people. We want, like, we want realistic gun safety reform and our government refuses to do it despite us having a massive gun violence problem. And despite, I'll just say briefly, I think this is my first time on the team. On the team. Well, I talked about, about this on our live stream last Thursday, but as far as you and I talking about this, because Melinda was with me last week, you know, I'm someone, for those of you who don't know, that has followed Charlie very closely. I've met Charlie Kirk several times. I know several people on staff at Turning Point usa, and it wasn't even a question. I mean, I immediately, immediately texted who I knew, said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm thinking about you guys, praying for you guys, hoping for a full recovery. No one wants, no one in the circles that I operate in and the people, people that I would do work with wants things like this to be happening in our country, period. Doesn't matter what they stand for and it doesn't matter the motive. The motive of the shooter. I, I am. That is irrelevant to the reality of it's what happened to Charlie's unjustifiable and bad and wrong and it's fully condemned. I've talked about some of my thoughts about Charlie and about also what we're going to get into on my personal substack. People can read some of those thoughts if they want. But yeah, I mean, I'm with you, April. It is unjustifiable violence. And we also know that it will not solve anything. It will only make things, I think, worse, like the temperature is only going to increase in this culture. As we saw people on the right immediately, like the second it happened, blamed the entire left for it, including our own president. So that certainly didn't help.

[April Ajoy]

And that was before they even had.

[Tim Whitaker]

The shooter or knew anything about the shooter. We didn't even know what gender they were. We didn't know anything about them. Right. And so, no, these kinds of things does not help the cause that you and I are trying to push, which is a world of human flourishing for all of our neighbors, where our children and our friends and our political opponents are not assassinated. Just like how we talked about Melissa Hortman, right, when she was killed by the man who had Christian nationalist views and her husband was killed and their dog was killed. And we strongly condemn that kind of violence as well. It's the same thing with Charlie. So.

[April Ajoy]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it is looking like there might have been some more extreme, like Nick Fuentes Right wing stuff, maybe.

[Tim Whitaker]

So we are, we are recording this. Look, we're recording this a week before this is going to drop. So that's going to come out between these words. And then what I will say is that it seems like even the Republican governor of Utah has said that, like, it looks like this person was involved in like the, the deep Internet, like memeification culture. And so that being said, there's a who world there, there's black pill culture. We'll get into that in the future as we get more details. But yes, it does seem like there is general consensus that this person was deep online in some pretty dark corners of the web. And we'll see where that goes from there.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah. So we're not here to speculate on that specific incident, like terrible violent act. What we want to talk about, though, is something that has happened in the aftermath. There are a lot of Christians, evangelicals, Christian nationalists, maga, people that are turning Charlie Kirk into a saint and they are turning him into a Christian martyr. I'm sure if you're online at all, you've seen posts like these. Here's a perfect example. Mark Driscoll, a pastor, posted a picture of Charlie Kirk, as you can see, and he said the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. And he's quoting Tertullian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep. One of the church fathers.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yep. And so this is something that I find very troubling for a myriad of reasons. One is that when people say that Charlie Kirk died because he was just standing up for his faith is dangerous, because you're going to have a lot of young people who are impressionable who are now going to go back and probably watch Charlie Kirk's work with the view of this man was a saint. And Charlie Kirk's words, to be clear, are white supremacists. They're racist, they're misogynistic, they're hateful. It's the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus. And so to conflate someone like Charlie as a saint, as this godly, good Christian martyr is going to have very negative ripple effects. And so what we wanted to talk about is one, you know, maybe foresee what could come, but also go to the past because Charlie Kirk is not the first Christian martyr that we've had in America that has been. That started this really vast movement. I don't know if you remember the Columbine shooting in 1999 and in the aftermath of that, which it was a tragic thing. And really, that was. That's the first shooting that I remember knowing about.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Same as a young person.

[Tim Whitaker]

And it was very high profile.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, very high profile. And it was before, you know, I mean, we have school shootings all the time now. There was another school shooting the same day Charlie Kirk was murdered by a.

[Tim Whitaker]

16 year old that was radicalized online. I mean, even the police said he was into like Holocaust denial stuff, which usually indicates more like alt right, you know, situations. But yeah, I mean, I believe one of the students died, including the shooter. Horrible. I mean, we're so used to school shootings happening in this country that most don't make the news. I think year to date we have something like 45 to 50 school shootings so far in 2025. And again, it's something that our country tolerates because our politicians could change that our politicians could put in again, to be clear, because I know some people who don't like us will just assume we want all guns banned from America. No one that I know is advocating for that. In fact, I grew up in a gun owning family. I've shotguns myself. It's about gun safety and gun regulation and also keeping guns out of the public that don't need to be held by the public. There's no reason why high powered assault rifles should be a thing in America. But this gun culture that we've created has, is a culture of death. It's a culture of death and it's very frustrating to see our politicians look at the bullet wounds of children that get killed by these guns and then do nothing, do nothing about it. And I say that as someone who. April, I know that you also saw the video of Charlie's assassination. I didn't mean to see it. Someone sent it to me. I didn't know what I was in for. It was incredibly like, whoa, jarring. It's an instant imprint, permanent in my brain. I will not get that image out of my head. And then when that happened, I was just so aghast, I thought to myself, wait, politicians have seen this in children, in 5 year olds, in 10 year olds and 11 year olds, and they still haven't thought about federal gun safety reform. Are you kidding me? Are you joking? So, yeah, I just want to say, like, I'm with you on that. You know, it's abhorrent.

[April Ajoy]

They don't make kid sized bullets.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Ajoy]

Regular. I know, it's, it's very tragic. I will say, I do hope there, if there's a silver lining in this. I hope that we can maybe get some gun reform even if it's in the honor of Charlie Kirk, maybe we can get some bipartisan.

[Tim Whitaker]

If it saves a kid in school, I don't. I don't freaking care. Let's just do it, and then we can whine about it later on about. How about. About, like, the name of the bill or something. I don't care. But, yes, I'm with you. I'm with you. 100.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. So one thing I want to talk about is this martyrdom. So we. You and I grew up. We were kids when Columbine happened. I was 11, I believe, when it happened and what happened in the. In the aftermath. So if you don't know, let me. Let me paint the scene, because this was in 1999, so there might be some people that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, no, that can't be a thing. Everyone's my age. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

I know. So. So the Columbine shooting, the story that came out afterwards is there was a shooter that walked into this high school.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And Cassie Bernal was one of the girls who died. And the story went that he held a gun to her head and asked her, do you believe in God? Yes or no? And she said yes. And then he shot her.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

That's the story. Now, to be fair, it later came out that that is not what happened.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

He actually asked someone else, and that girl survived. That's neither here nor there. And here's. And I want to be clear, too. I don't believe the parents intentionally lied about this story because they wrote a book called she Said Yes. It became this whole movement. They were just basing it off of what they were told initially.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

Because initially that was the story. And by the time. The truth. I honestly didn't find out that it wasn't true until like maybe six years ago.

[Tim Whitaker]

Same. Like, it was very. It was recent for me. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And I was floored because I was just so convinced that that, that for real happened. Because the way it was. I don't know if weaponized is the right term, but the. The way it was used as a tool to radicalize teenagers across America.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

I mean, because. Because you had fly leaf wrote a song called Cassie.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Michael W. Smith wrote a song. It was like, this was your time. And I think it won, like, best song of the year, Devil Words whatever. Rebecca St. James wrote a song that was like, yes, I believe in God. Like, it was a. It was a movement. It became a thing. It was in chill. I remember hearing about. In kids church. I heard it about it in youth group. The. The amount of Times that it was the, the story was told to us and then we were asked the call to action. What if someone held a gun to your head?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Would you and asked you, do you believe in God? Would you say no and be ashamed of your God? And the Bible says, those who are ashamed of me, I'll be ashamed of them when it, when you go to heaven and then you go to hell, Right. Or will you say yes and die but go immediately to heaven?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And they basically were saying, like, if you would not say yes, you need to figure out why you would not and get your faith to a strong enough point where you were willing to die. Yep, that was the narrative. I remember being a kid laying in bed at night fantasizing about that exact same scenario happening and then trying to decide if I could say yes. I would say most of the time I was very strong in my faith and be like, I would say yes, I would die for God. But then there were also other moments where I'm like, but I'm so young, I want to live and I want to do this. And what if I said no? Maybe I would say no and then I would feel immediately guilty for even considering saying no. And then I'd ask God to forgive me.

[Tim Whitaker]

Same. I would read Jesus freak voice of the martyrs on the toilet and be like, can I do this? Like, can I be like one of these people, you know, who like, is dying for their faith and is so committed to it that even if they had a family, they would still be martyred? And I'm thinking to myself as like, you know, a 16 year old virgin. Like, I don't know, I really want to have sex one day. So like, I don't, I don't know how this works. You know, it's like these competing narratives of like, just wait till you get married, it's gonna be amazing. And also, would you die for Jesus tonight? Is your faith strong enough that you would just die and go right to heaven? And I'm like, I, I think it is, but what if it isn't? And then what if I say, what if I lie and then God judges me for that? Like, and then I thought, but here's how I justified it. I said, wait, hold on. Pragmatically though, this is like 16 year old Tim trying to like justify it, right? If I lie and say no, I'm not a Christian and my life is spared, but I save more souls from hell after that, that's got to count for something, right? Like, I want to stay on this Earth, so I can keep preaching the good news. So I think God will understand that if I just lie now and kind of get away, you know, get out, get out of this predicament. Yeah, I'll be okay. Because it was terrifying to be thinking about this and to be told that I had to prepare myself to be killed. The other piece of this I just really need to point out is that we're being told this as like white suburban Americans. No, like, yeah, I mean, look, I. Like we said earlier, none of what we're going to talk about when it comes to Charlie Kirk is about what happened to him. None of that is justifiable. Okay, let's be very clear. But also, Charlie Kirk was worth $12 million, had a huge real estate portfolio, ran one of the largest right wing conservative institutions in America, had the President of the United States of America on speed dial, was able to speak into his life to shape policy. I don't want it to. Charlie was not a persecuted Christian in America. He was not a martyr for his faith. Like he, he lived on the top upper crust of society, preaching a message that denigrated many of the people groups below him. Whether it was his abhorrent comments about black women or black pilots, or his comments about calling trans people an abomination or, or, or him talking about anything else that we can go down the list on telling Taylor Swift she better submit to her husband. Like, there's a whole litany of quotes. I mean, Charlie was someone who spoke all the time, was all over the place, over a billion views on this content. So I just kind of find it ironic that going back to us as kids, you know, here we are, like one of the safest places in the, in the world for Christians like us, because we actually built so much, so many of the institutions that are protecting and out shaping culture. And we're worried that we're going to be in a place where we might have to die for our faith. Like, you know, some radical leftist president like Obama is going to kick down our door one day and be like, are you a Christian? Are you a Christian, Tim? Because if you are, I'm going to kill you. Like, that's kind of like the, the image that you're given as a child in these spaces.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, I remember I saw a legit Facebook post before, before Joe Biden was inaugurated. So we're talking about Joe Biden, not, not even Obama. We're talking about Joe. And they were like, we. By, by year two of Joe Biden's presidency, it'll be illegal to worship God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes.

[April Ajoy]

Like the people genuinely believe this. And I want to be clear too. Like the the whole persecution martyr id like ideation did not start in 1999 with Columbine. It exploded after that. But the idea that that American Christians were persecuted has been a thing forever. Like I remember growing up and I mean my dad would talk about being in high school and how like you couldn't say the name of Jesus because they hate the name of Jesus. And like I was raised to believe that I was going to be persecuted for my faith. Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, Executive Director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

In real tangible ways.

[April Ajoy]

As a nonprofit organization, not only do.

[Tim Whitaker]

We offer thought provoking podcasts, but on.

[April Ajoy]

Our new app and online platform TNE.

[Tim Whitaker]

Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with.

[April Ajoy]

Like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement.

[Tim Whitaker]

So if what we're doing has been.

[April Ajoy]

Helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thanks for being a part of the movement. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info and if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply the number one selling.

[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

See for [e-mail] this is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers.

[Tim Whitaker]

We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kathy and Andrew.

[April Ajoy]

I got to sit in the driver's seat.

[Tim Whitaker]

I grew up in an aviation family, and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.

[April Ajoy]

Of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot.

[Tim Whitaker]

These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

[April Ajoy]

It felt like I was the captain.

[Tim Whitaker]

Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way. So I went to a turning point. USA Pastor Summit. Had to be two, two and a half years ago. It was small, couple people, a lot of pastors, including Charlie's pastor, Rob McCoy. And I'm telling you, I'm sitting in the room listening to pastors talk because Biden was president. And they're really talking and they're serious that they're really concerned that Joe Biden might throw them in prison. And I'm like, do you guys hear yourself?

[April Ajoy]

Like, Joe Biden, who is a very strong Christian himself.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah. A very strong, committed Catholic. You're worried that his administration is going to throw you in prison just for speaking like, no, that's not how this works. But they really believed it. And I remember thinking to myself, like, wow, guys, it is like 20. It's 2023. It's 2022. That's never been a thing in America. No president, no administration has targeted Christians. However, one thing that I think we should point out and then we can move on to maybe the radicalization piece of this as kids, is that one of the really important pieces to remember? Because I know that some folks out there might be like, I don't get it, Tim. How can so many churches, like, do this whole memorial of Charlie and like, this martyrdom thing when he preached things that were just so antithetical to the words of Jesus? Right. And I think it's important to remember that this space curates the content that its adherents hear and See, it's all filtered through these selective gatekeepers, okay? And so that's really important as we're thinking about kind of all of this, because the reality is that this space teaches people inside of it that. That Joe Biden was targeting Christians. And what the. What the. What they'll do is they'll give a few examples that sound on the surface through their very. Through their very twisted lens like, that's the case, but it's really not. For example, there was a story about a couple pro life activists who got arrested under the Biden administration. And the way that a lot of people framed it was like, these were just peaceful protesters just praying outside abortion clinics, and the evil DOJ supported by Joe Biden arrested them. That. That's like, how. It's. That that's the narrative inside of this, like, white evangelical house, right? But the reality was these people broke laws. They broke into the abortion clinic, they ran over a nurse and hurt her, and one of the women had fetuses in her house. Like, the story is crazy, but you would never know that if all your information is filtered through, like, this gatekeeper world, that. That feeds you selective pieces of truth to fit a certain narrative, which I.

[April Ajoy]

Think is a very important note, because it is something that we see today. People will claim Christian persecution. I mean, they do it all the time. Sean Voight claimed it because he break. Breaks laws, and then they call him out for. And he's like, no, no, I mean, persecuted for my faith. So it. It is. It is the fallback. So you have people who are not actually preaching the. The teachings of Jesus. They're not teaching to love your neighbor, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, take care of the poor, the widow, the orphan, you know, fight for the marginalized, feed the hungry. Like, they're not teaching those things. They don't notice how they never get, quote, unquote persecuted or the Beatitudes or the Sermon on the Mount. Right, right, right. What they're doing is they'll say something racist. They'll incite, you know, a bunch of hate towards an entire community, towards immigrants, towards trans people. And then people call them out for it, like, and maybe call them a bigot because the shoe fits. And then suddenly it's like, nope, you're just saying that because I'm standing up for biblical truth. But when they say biblical truth, it sounds good. If you're in the. In group, it sounds like, yeah, we're just standing up for God's truth. We're just standing up for the word of God. But what they're actually standing up for is Christian nationalism is oppression. They're standing up for conservative policies. And because Christian nationalism is so sneaky, they don't see what they're actually preaching is nationalistic ideologies and not the teachings of Jesus. Because American evangelicalism and Christian nationalism have become so interconnected that most people perpetuate Christian nationalism, but they think they're just being good Christians.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. And that is why, in a way, Charlie Kirk was a martyr of Christian nationalism. Right. Like, I can see how that's your lens. If your lens is this Christian nationalist ideology, Charlie Kirk is one of your saints. Right. And so, like, I can see that now. But I will tell you, April, I'm not sure for you, as someone who tracks this stuff and is used to seeing it everywhere. I was surprised by how many of the rank and file white evangelicals that I either still knew or have known shared, like, that kind of language around Charlie. I was genuinely surprised. I was like, wow. Like, people that I thought had no awareness at all of what was going on are like, you know, charlie Kirk, a hero. And I'm like, okay, interesting. And I, at the same time, other church traditions, mainly the black church, the way that they talked about this. Right. Was of course, they deplored the violence. Again, Charlie should never have been shot, should never have been murdered. That goes without saying. And also, we're very honest about how his rhetoric and what he stood for has affected the black community in America. Right. And so we really do have, like, like, like two different Christian traditions in America that are looking at the same situation from two different vantage points. On one side, the Christian nationalist, white evangelical world's like, this is one of our heroes, which I think is very telling. And meanwhile, other groups that have been historically marginalized by the rhetoric and legislation put into place by white conservative evangelicals are like, this guy was one of the loudest voices that fueled our oppression and hatred towards us. In fact, when this shooting happened, HBCUs, historically black college universities were targeted with bomb threats, even though the shooter is white. I know, right? So, like, it's been very interesting. This is, I have to say this. It's been very interesting, April, seeing the response, seeing white neo Nazis marching in the street in honor of Charlie, seeing my pastor that I used to know also share the words of Charlie and, like, you know, venerate him as, like, a hero. I just think that's very telling for, like, the spaces that he either helped build or was swimming in. And I think it does feed into this persecution complex. And my both of our concerns is that is that this tragic, unjustifiable situation will now be used as a rallying cry to further radicalize people to fight the demonic left, which is what they're told to fight already. But now there's proof. Now see what the left has done. Even if there is no evidence as of this recording of that being the thing. Right? As of this recording, we have no evidence that this was like a far left, you know, antifa operative. Right. Now most of it points in a different direction. But again, that's before this is a week old friends, so keep that in mind. Right? But it doesn't matter because in Christian nationalism, truth is subservient to power, meaning the narrative is what matters. And all, all that matters is that is that the narrative is believed. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. That's why the entire right wing media world immediately pinned this whole thing on the left without any evidence. Right? And it just, it fuels the Christian persecution complex because they're taught every day in the churches that they attend that the radical evil left is going to destroy the country and hates them. And now this will be used as the proof that that is true, whether it's actually true or not.

[April Ajoy]

Absolutely. And it is very telling too how they are quick to blame entire groups of people. Like when you're blaming the left, you're blaming half the country. Because when they say radical leftist, they're including like moderate liberals.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like I don't know who that is. Right.

[April Ajoy]

Left of them, like, right. They're not radical. Like so they blame the entire country, which then will incite more violence. I mean I was terrified that first day or two because especially having like a trans spouse. And they immediately started talking about how the shooter was trans with zero evidence. Like they were so eager to hate on trans people or to hate on some other group. But notice when it's a white Christian nationalist that shoots someone like Melissa Hortman. I didn't hear a lot of, I didn't hear any condemnation of that entire group. Nope. It was, it was just a deranged individual.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. And Trump, to be very clear, Trump didn't speak out against with about Hortman. Charlie Kirk never mentioned Melissa Hortman. I checked his Twitter. Like they. It is I. Maybe we're off the beaten path here. But just lastly, I guess it is consistently in these spaces, empathy for me, not for thee. Right? The same people who preach toxic empathy, the same people who said empathy is a made up word. Word which Charlie, by the way, said in the clip that it's a new age word that he doesn't like. All of a sudden now the same people that they targeted every day, the trans agenda, the queer people, the black people, DEI hires all of a sudden, how dare you not have empathy for this person? Right? And so it's a very insidious loop that I'm sure we'll unpack, you know, in the future. There's. There's more to talk about on that angle, but I don't know. I mean, I just think that it's worth noting that our bottom line for this is that this assassination, I unfortunately believe, will only radicalize more white evangelicals to get more involved, whether it's. It's going. I mean, I read that there were 32,000 applications for Turning Point USA chapters after this massive flux of donations. Turning Point is fundra off of this. In fact, we got this, we got this message the other day. April, this is from our friend Kasem Rashid. He says that Turning Point USA is mass texting teenagers. My minor teen son is getting bombarded. Despite opting out of one text scam, TPUSA will text with another text scam. They're going full grift ahead to raise money by targeting teens for their allowance money. An absurd attempt to grift and indoctrinate. And the text reads, the Turning Point USA family. Charlie Kirk gave everything his mission lives on. Watch this powerful tribute now. And the other text reads, from Erica Kirk. I refuse to let the movement Charlie built die. It will only grow stronger, bolder and louder. Join me. There's a link to Go ahead and donate. So that's the play. The play is. Look what happened. It's bad. Of course, April and I agree. But the difference is how is how we see like the aftermath, essentially, you know, well.

[April Ajoy]

And it's just so dangerous the way they are painting anyone who ever was against Charlie Kirk as an evildoer as somehow the reason. You know, like I.

[Tim Whitaker]

There's a website, Charlie's Murderers dot com. They are literally. Look, I got April. I don't know, maybe, maybe we don't get to all of our content today regarding the rapture and stuff. Or maybe we do, I don't know. But I just. While we're here, it's just worth pointing out that it's very odd and weird to see people say Charlie died for freedom of speech. Right? He believed in good faith debate and free speech. And to watch that same group of people then say aren't look we're going to target people who have said things that we don't like about Charlie to get them fired. Like, I'm sorry, I thought, I thought that the right decried cancel culture. I thought it was the right that was like free speech, absolutist. You should not be punished, you know, by losing your job for things that you say that might even be hateful. Right. Whenever a racist person says something, loses his job. Oh my goodness, how. This is, this is too far. This is government overreach. Whatever it is. It's cancel culture. It's the mob, right? It's the woke mob. They literally built a website where they have over 30,000 submissions and they're sharing information about people who they say are saying things that are bad about Charlie in hopes that they get a targeted hate campaign. 30 When Melissa Hortman was murdered by a Christian nationalist. I'm not aware of any such campaign on the quote, unquote, left. Oh, you know what? Let's. Let's go ahead and build a database of 30,000 or more names of people that we think incited this violence so we can cancel them. It's just not a thing. It never happened. It's bizarre to say the least.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and that feeds into, it just feeds into the persecution complex too, because they're basically saying that us calling out hate speech as hate speech is hate speech.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Which is not like, that's like if you, if someone says something racist and you say, hey, this is racist, that's not hateful.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

That's just pointing out a fact. And I, and I really do think if the overwhelming majority of evangelicals right now were not trying to make a saint out of Charlie Kirk, you wouldn't be seeing as many people posting his very racist and hateful quotes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

Because like, my biggest concern is that this is going to radicalize more teenagers to be violent Christian nationalists. Or maybe not violent, but at least like militant. Because it's built in the ideology. Not. I mean, and not just the martyr talk. Like the idea of like, did you grow up with that song I may.

[Tim Whitaker]

Never march in the infantry. Right. In the cavalry. Shoot the artillery. Yeah. Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And it's like, I'm in the Lord's army. Like, that's the song we sang in kids church.

[Tim Whitaker]

Absolutely.

[April Ajoy]

There was this design, like you are called. And I understand, I understand the importance of purpose that people feel when they believe they are living a life bigger than their own and the need to the militant language. We're in a spiritual battle. This is a spiritual war.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

And whose side are you on where it's very black and white. You're either on God's side or you're on the evil satanic side.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. You're on the enemy side.

[April Ajoy]

No, in between.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Ajoy]

And when you genuinely believe that, and especially when you're taught it from a young age, radicalized teenagers turn into radicalized adults. And I will say this. We talked to Danny Rocca a month or so ago about Shiny Happy People. So the newest season of Shiny Happy People, season two, it's called A Teenage Holy War. If you want to see what you're.

[Tim Whitaker]

On, by the way.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Which I know I am in it. But if you want to see the ramifications of what it looks like to radicalize teenagers and what those, those adults either turn into radicalized adults or very traumatized adults and sometimes both. But go watch that because that paints a very clear picture of what I like. I think that Charlie Kirk might be made into the next Cassie Bernal like this generation's Cassie Bernal.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

And there's someone who left that.

[Tim Whitaker]

More than that. More than that. By the way, I mean the NFL gave moments of silence like the Yankee Stadium gave moment of silence. Our own government flew his casket back on Air Force Two, which is infinitely more than they did for Melissa Hortman. I mean, infinitely. Trump wouldn't even call Governor Waltz waltz when Melissa Hortman was murdered. Think about that. Think about that. The President of the United States gave a four minute speech from the Oval Office memorializing Charlie, blaming the radical left for all of it. And then on 9 11, JD Vance didn't go to a 911 memorial service. He went to get the casket of Charlie Kirk and bring it back on Air Force Two. Okay. So I think it's way bigger than Cassidy because there's a whole political element of this that is tied into it as well, you know.

[April Ajoy]

Right. And that, and that is the scarier part of this with Cassie, the emphasis was just on belief in God. Just will you stand up for your belief in God? And then slowly over time it turned into will you stand up for your these conservative policies that we have now equated as biblical truth? And that's what we're going to see today. That that's where this is turning into. It's not just about belief in God. It's about belief and all of these very right wings positions that they have equated with being positions of God.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. This is anyone who listens to our show or to my Content or your content. Or reads your book, Star Spangled Jesus, which I think is a copy of.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah. And actually, I meant to say this at the top, but this is a paperback version. Look, it's so. It's so little. But I have a paperback version coming out September 30th, so you can pre order it or get it wherever. There is a little bit of an update at the front that I wrote in the spring.

[Tim Whitaker]

Awesome.

[April Ajoy]

But, yeah, so I say that because.

[Tim Whitaker]

Anyone who listens to our content knows what I'm going to say here. This is Christian nationalism, like Christian nationalism, is built on power and control, and that we have data on this. Christian nationalists as a group are more likely to embrace political violence when necessary. Hello, January 6th. Don't forget again, this is why I get so frustrated. And by the way, my political enemies not dictate my values. Okay. Meaning I'm still going to extend empathy to the. To the family and people who are really hurting who either worked with Charlie or who were married to Charlie, whatever. Of course, that goes without saying. I'm going to also condemn the violence very openly. Okay. But our political opponents do not do that when it's. When it's reversed. In fact, Donald Trump pardoned every single January 6th insurrectionist. They don't just say nothing. They actually embrace the violence if they feel like it's justifiable. Right. Don't forget, thousands of people stormed our Capitol with Trump flags, Bibles, and a noose to hang the vice president with.

[April Ajoy]

And Jesus flags, too.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. And Jesus flags and the appeal to heaven flags. And our current sitting president did a blanket pardon of every single January 6th. So this is the evolution of the Christian nationalist ideal, which is we need to be in cultural and political power. We have to be the ones making all the rules, and everyone else must assimilate into this. It's built on white nationalism. It's built on white supremacy, and it will embrace violence if it feels like it's necessary to accomplish the mission. And that's why a lot of the language we hear in churches, especially if you're in, like, the new apostolic, reformation, charismatic space, you hear about military language and weapon language and war language all the time. People would give prophecies about how Trump needed to be a Jehu. Well, Jehu in the Bible is a violent king who beheads people, including people's children. And we have prophecies from, like, Jonathan Cahn and Lance Wall News saying Trump needs to be a Jehu to slay the, you know, Vice President Harris in her campaign that it's not a far. It's not a big leap to go from the language to believing. I have to really do things like this, you know, so the entire world that we grew up in, April is incredibly militarized. And then that makes it normal. Then you combine that with the gun culture, right? You're just used to guns around all the time. Not just hunting rifles or pistols, but like, you know, AR15s or whatever. However you want to. However you want to imagine it. And you can see how it's recipe for real disaster, right?

[April Ajoy]

And then you just combine it with a lot of the baked in evangelical theology too, like belief in hell, original sin even, where you are taught that you are inherently evil and you must die to yourself. And these things are said to children. Like, we have a clip of Jackie Hill Perry. And this was just from this year. She was speaking to a group of children. It was her Easter message. And she tells them that they deserve to die.

[Tim Whitaker]

Listen to this. This is wild. This is wild.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, Okay. I have a very specific question. Do we know what today is?

[Tim Whitaker]

Who wrote something today?

[April Ajoy]

Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, what does that mean? Why is it important that he wrote.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, so that mean he defeated sin and what?

[Tim Whitaker]

Dad, dad, you deserve to die because you are sinner. Okay. But Jesus love you so much that.

[April Ajoy]

He died for you. And you hear that, kid? Well, that was a lot.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. The candy is just.

[April Ajoy]

Cuz we love you, but it ain't got nothing to do with it. Okay?

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's what you deserve to die. Wow, that was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot.

[April Ajoy]

Yes. So much with children. Like, and then also, like, think about all the media that we had. A thing that comes to mind is the. The bunny episode of. With VeggieTales.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes.

[April Ajoy]

Like which. Which follows the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Of course, it's all with veggies. And it's about. Instead of bowing down to the statue, it's singing. It's bowing down and singing this bunny song. And you know what? And in. In it, they. They, the, you know, the main characters agree that they would rather be thrown into a fiery furnace than sing the song. And obviously that's based on an actual Bible story, you know, and they don't actually die. They. They get rescued. But the lesson is you need to be willing to die because you need to stand up for what's right for. For the truth. And like, as a parent, you know, and. And we're always taught that God's love for us is more than we can even imagine. Like our own love for our own children, Right? As a parent, if someone ever went up to my kids and put a gun to their head and asked them, do you love your parents? Yes or no? And if you say yes, I'm going to shoot you. I want my kids to lie. I want them to say no. I don't want them to die with honor for me. I want them to. I would rather them live.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. 100%.

[April Ajoy]

I'm Robin Carlene. I live in Point Pleasant, New Jersey, and I'm a proud monthly supporter of T and E. I grew up in the evangelical community, and the church was very much a part of my identity. It is still painful to have lost that community and even more painful to see how the evangelical movement has become defined by political agendas and warped theology. This is one of the reasons why I really admire Tim's work in the new evangelicals. He has the ability to kind of expose these really unsettling issues and address his adversaries with love, candor and an open mind. I think I really have to say I was taken when he went out to the Asbury revival and reported from there. That was a moment where I decided that this is someone with integrity that I wanted to support. I also met Tim up in person at a Quaker meeting in North Jersey and what can I say? Deep respect for a fellow Jersey boy who really showed humanity in a very small setting, not just large ones. Tim, thanks for being the loving hand and compassionate heart of Christ in a world of angry tongues and warped minds. Peace.

[Tim Whitaker]

Recently we asked some people about sharing their New York Times accounts.

[April Ajoy]

My name is Dana. I am a subscriber to the New York Times, but my husband isn't and it would be really nice to be able to share a recipe or an article or compete with him in wordle or connections. Thank you. Dana.

[Tim Whitaker]

We heard you introducing the New York Times Family subscription. One subscription, up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out [e-mail] family see Oklahoma City like never before. There's more to discover and even more to explore. Dozens of districts to fit every move. Shopping and dining. Did we mention the food? This city's waiting for you to embrace it. So plan your next trip@Visit okc.com yeah, look, it's what we're really describing. I don't know the makeup of our audience. I don't know how many folks are like, you know, have our experience versus are like, wow, you guys had a really interesting childhood. I'm not sure what the makeup of that is. It's just really hard to, like. It's hard to understand that way of thinking unless you grew up in it like we did. It's really interesting when you're just taught from the beginning how this whole thing fits, right? You're evil and wicked. You can't trust your intuition, so. So trust your pastors to give you the truth of God's word. Okay, That's. That's like piece one of this, right? Okay. So you believe what your pastor says. Okay, well, the Bible's clear on A, B, C, D and E issues. Okay. Now, what if I told you that we live in a country where there are people who hate you, they hate you for what you believe. Now, already the premise is already kind of flawed because what they're talking about is bigotry. They're talking about control. They're talking about power, right? Erasing abortion rights, you know, overturning gay marriage, that kind of stuff. Bringing prayer, quote, unquote, back to public schools. Even though kids can pray in public schools, they just can't be forced to go and pray and be led by teachers, right? Which makes sense because people have had different beliefs. All those things are baked into this pie. And if you don't live this way, and if you don't try and save your friends, you might burn in hell one day. Like hell is on the other end of this life.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. So. So not only are you under attack here, you're also dealing with this huge threat of hell. If you don't pray this prayer and follow Jesus the way that you're being taught to, because this space is not about exploration, even inside the Christian tradition. I'm not sure about you, April, but not only was I taught that Catholics probably weren't even really Christian, even my charismatic churches that we passed probably were demonically influenced because I grew up in a more cessationist background, right? So, like, even the, you know, it was so insular, it was like this super thin slice of the Christian pie is the only true way of being Christian. And so you have this system that is built around these culture war issues that determine someone's salvation status. And if you don't adhere to them the way that you're taught to, you're in danger of hell. You're probably being influenced by the enemy, AKA Satan. Right? And you also now are partnering with your political enemy that wants to destroy America. Now, imagine being fed that story over and over and over again from age like 5 to like, 23. And you're taught it in a myriad of different ways. You're given media, you're given books, you're given theologians, you're given influencers, you're given music, you're giving. You name it. That all reinforce that foundational narrative in a myriad of different ways. It's incredibly compelling when you grow up in it. And that's all, you know. Incredibly.

[April Ajoy]

And I was even taught, just from a pragmatic standpoint, less about being ashamed of God, but just that if you say no and live. But you. You betrayed your God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

You would go to hell. And so it would be better to die and go to heaven because hell is eternal torture forever.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Which is a very powerful force of control. I mean, it's a powerful motivator. So there's a lot of things that go into this persecution American complex that we have. And I do want to be clear. There are true stories of Christians being martyred. Historically, they still happen overseas in other countries. And so a lot of times they will use real stories of actual Christian persecution, but conflate it with what happens here in America. And there's just no conflation. Like, there's no comparison. There's no Christian persecution here in America.

[Tim Whitaker]

Especially white evangelical persecution. Okay, guys, just think about it for a second. There's an entire mega church industry where pastors make millions of dollars. There's an entire evangelical Christian publishing industry. There's a movie industry. There's a music industry where hits regularly top the charts. Okay? There. There are hundreds of small political activist organizations funded by billionaires that were white. Evangelicals influence Congress to write laws in favor of them. Most of Congress is Christian. Most presidents are Christian.

[April Ajoy]

I think every single president has claimed some form of belief in a Christian God, like we.

[Tim Whitaker]

Your faith is. There are 330,000 churches in America. Okay? Muslims represent 2% of the population. And we're taught that. That. That we're under imminent attack and the threat of a radical Muslim invasion that's going to take over America. Like, we're taught that, as it's. Of course, first off, it's. It's Islamophobic, number one. But number two, it's just not true. Like, it's just not factually true.

[April Ajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

And so it's really unbelievable to watch the most privileged people in America. Right. Cry the loudest about their rights being taken away, which all that really means is that their privilege is being taken away. Right. If we advocate for our queer neighbors to have just the right to get married and be legally recognized by the state. That is too much of an infringement for the white Christian nationalists. Just the thought that someone else has the same access to the same marital rights that they do in this society is persecution in their minds. Think about that.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and I want to explain why. Why too? Because they, they're one. Jesus said, blessed are the persecuted. And also, if you follow me, the world will hate you as it hated me. So they take those words and like so anytime they get any sort of pushback, they wear it like a badge of honor. Well, I'm just being hated like Jesus was. But Jesus was hated because he called out religious hypocrites and was radically inclusive of people that those in power did not want to include 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

What's the gospel he preached? I've come to bring good news to the poor, to liberate the oppressed. That is the opposite. It is the polar opposite of what white Christian nationalism preaches. So is the idea about being hated the same? Sure, but the reasons are on the complex, complete opposite sides. Jesus was a Jewish man born under the occupation of empire. Okay? Charlie Kirk was a man on the very top of empire, shaping the policies of empire, profiting off of empire, and then using that power and privilege to further marginalize already marginalized people. They're complete opposites. Like the motivation, the actions, the beliefs, the teachings are completely on the opposite sides of the spectrum. If Jesus was alive today, he'd be in a concentration camp built by this MAGA administration that's doing it apparently in the name of God. Have you ever realized that, like if Jesus. Okay, look, if the claim that Jesus, Jesus is alive and that Charlie is in heaven is true, Charlie Kirk is meaning a brown skinned Middle Eastern man named Jesus right now. Not a white man, not a white conservative. He's meeting a brown skinned Middle Eastern Jewish man right now. It goes against everything that Charlie and the MAGA world pushed and the narratives they pushed about humanity, immigration, etc. And that's not being hateful, that's telling the truth. And I, like, like we said a thousand times, I'll say it every couple of minutes so people really get it. Of course we condemn what happened to Charlie. It's unjustifiable, obviously. And also the words of Charlie stand for what they are. That's his legacy. I'm not misquoting him. I track, I track his stuff for a living. This is what he said about people, about immigrants, calling them third worlders who are destroying cities. Even though factually that's not true, it is what it is.

[April Ajoy]

Another. We'll get. Let's get to the Rapture stuff and then we'll call it a day. But another. So Rapture ideology, pre millennialism, you know, in, in times eschatology, if you will, also has a martyr complex involved. So in, in the midst of putting all this fear into teens, they talk. Which, which I will say, I don't know that the Rapture is as mainstream as it was when I was growing up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I don't know.

[April Ajoy]

I mean, I think a lot of people believe in it, but it does it like it's left behind. Books and movies were huge in the 90s and 2000s, and I mean, they still do make left behind movies, so that's still a thing. And a lot of people still believe in the rapture, right? 100%, but it just doesn't seem to be saturating the culture like it did before.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like the God's not dead narrative is kind of what's like the old school left behind narrative now, you know.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, but. But the Rapture belief is still a huge belief in this world.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

And so part of the motivators to stand up for your faith and to be strong in your faith, to be a martyr if it comes, is so that you're not left behind. You don't want to be left behind from the Rapture because of the Great Tribulation and all the horrors that are going to happen when you are left behind. But I was always taught of like, but hey, if you mess up and you accidentally get left behind, then you need to be prepared to die because you will be a martyr in the great Tribulation, specifically death by guillotine. And I once thought I was actually left behind and legitimately was like, preparing myself as a 13 year old to get my head chopped off, was trying to convince myself it's okay, a quick little pain will be worth going to heaven as opposed to going to hell with the mark of the beast and like all that stuff.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's, you know, the farther I get away from that worldview, the clearer I see the indoctrination and the high control that all these elements serve. Right. I mean, think about that, April. You were 13, truly ready to be guillotined because you were a conservative white Christian in America. Like, that is wild. That's wild. And I shared the sense of, I mean, I was there, you know, in my own way. I was in the more, like I said, reform space. So it wasn't as prevalent, but it was still a thing. I mean, persecution was was incoming no matter what. And yeah, those things, I mean, it's wild to say now because we don't know what happens when we die. We don't know. We have beliefs about it. But the idea of, like, no, when you die, if you haven't prayed this prayer the right way and if you don't believe the right things that we give you, you're going to burn in hell forever. That is outlandish. That's, I mean, I'm going to say something extreme, but that's in my opinion, that's child abuse telling a child that, in my opinion, that is child abuse telling an 8 year old when, when, you know why? Because as a parent, there's that trust that's built, right? Like, you know, I have a 3 and a 5 year old. If I tell them something, they just believe me. Like if I say, yeah, this, you know, the sky is blue, the grass is green, they don't question it. That, that, that belief is now a new part of how they understand the world. Telling a child at age like 6 or 7 that if they don't pray this prayer and repent of their sins and they're gonna burn in hell forever when they die. And you know, hell was like a hot oven where you're just in pain and agony. And to make that a formative belief of how you understand reality, it's, that's vile, man. That is vile. I'm sorry, that's horrible.

[April Ajoy]

But the parents also believe it. And the parents, the parents don't. Like, they don't want their children to burn alive.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm not saying it's intentional, to be clear. I'm with you.

[April Ajoy]

It's a vicious cycle. No, I agree, it is. I think that's why so many of us that grew up in that world have problems with anxiety today. Because you, you could never fully enjoy life. You could never fully enjoy the new friends that you were making. Because if they weren't Christian, then you had an obligation to then save them from going to hell. You know, and not even, and even when you were a good Christian, like I was a really good kid and I was terrified, like, oh, I flirted with that boy. Was that lust. Was that last. Do I need to, do I need to ask God to forgive me? Am I going to go to hell if I don't? You're like, you're constantly second guessing your own salvation because, I mean, even though I was taught that once you say the prayer, you're good, right, you also could potentially lose it. So you might just Want to keep saying the prayer just in case.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. Because it's this weird both and right. It's this weird paradox of, look, God's grace covers all sin. Like just repent in your good. And then it's a lifetime of, well, are you really saved though? Because you're, where's the fruit? Your fruit should look like if you're a true believer, you know, I want.

[April Ajoy]

To be lukewarm or God spit you out of his mouth.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. And look, let me be so clear. I, I actually in a way agree with the logic of your fruit should dictate, you know, or be proof of like your allegiance to Christ or your salvation. But all of those words that I just said have radically different meanings now than when they did as a white evangelical. Right? Like for me, I'm like, yes, where is your fruit of the spirit? Where's your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness? Where is your, you know, allegiance to the crucified way of Jesus, who died in a non violent way, who advocated for liberation of the poor? That matters to me as a Christian. I wonder, you know, how someone can look at the words of Jesus and go, you know what? We should crucify our enemies instead of loving them. Right. So I agree with the sentiment, but the, the outworking of that worldview produces the complete opposite fruit of what I think we see in the red letters, especially if not in the, in the New Testament and even parts of the Hebrew Bible itself. But yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I'm, you know, one of the moments that really woke me up to this, it was not that long ago, maybe seven, eight years ago. Me and my brother were driving somewhere and my brother made a comment because he wasn't a Christian at the time, and he said something like, you know, well, I guess I just wasn't predestined to go to heaven. I thought to myself, is that what my heaven's gonna be like? So I'm gonna be in heaven forever and my brother will be burning in hell forever because he was predestined to. And somehow I'm supposed to enjoy heaven. That doesn't. Something isn't, I don't know what's not right with that yet, but like something wasn't right in my gut about that. But when you're taught, don't believe your intuition, don't believe your feelings, don't believe your gut, you can see how that logic is so self defeating because once you have that intuition of I don't know, I don't know, that feels off Wait, I can't trust that though, because it's inherently wicked. So I have to trust what my pastor says about these Bible verses and believe that even as my own intuition is like, that is not right. Something is wrong with that belief. I have to suppress that, you know?

[April Ajoy]

Right. And that goes back to Jackie Hill Perry telling those kids they deserve to die. When you're taught that your natural instincts, like you just existing, is deserving of eternal hellfire.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

Then you're obviously like going to doubt any thought that you have. Like, you're, you're conditioned to do that because you don't want to go to hell. And you're taught that, oh, I'm evil, I'm disgusting, I'm, you know, what's that book that was like, you're not enough and that's okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Ally Sucky's book.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah. Like, what a degrading thing to teach people and to teach kids. It's, it really is. That's why we wanted to talk about this because, yes. There. I don't know about you. Like, I got a lot of pushback this week from Christians and I, and then I, and I saw it, I witnessed it online too. Right. Of a lot of these Christians who are mad at people who are basically just sharing quotes that Charlie Kirk said. Right. And they're like, how dare you speak ill of the dead? You know how, like, he was a great man of God. He just spoke gospel truth. I can't tell you how many people I saw that were like, he just spoke gospel truth.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And there were like a couple moments where I just kind of felt like I was going crazy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

Right. Because like, I, I've just. Like you, I have tracked Charlie Kirk. We've, we've responded to a bunch of his videos over the last year or two. I, we, I know for a fact that he was a very divisive person and he spread a lot of hateful ideologies that harmed a lot of marginalized groups. Like, I know that. And then I'm also seeing people who claim to follow Jesus conflate him with this hero of the faith. He was just standing up for gospel truth. And anytime I would feel gaslit, I would just go back and read the teachings of Jesus. Specifically, do you remember the Bible verse where he says, they will know you're my disciples by how you love one another?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Charlie Kirk and a lot of Christian nationalists and maga Christians and very right wing Christians are not known for how they love one another.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And just look at the calls to take up arms, metaphorically. You know, there's a lot of talk about we're in a spiritual battle. The evildoers, they are demonizing us. Even we would fall into who they deem, quote, unquote, evildoers.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Which is not what Jesus would have done. Jesus told Peter, lay down your weapon, turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Even if you believe that it was the entire left that is responsible for this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. That's right.

[April Ajoy]

The response for someone who follows Christ is to try to bring unity, to try to bring people together, and to try to, like, have empathy and to love those who do not love you. And I think that's where I. I struggle as someone who does have empathy and does want to love my enemies. Even though I know someone like Charlie Kirk would not have empathy for me if the role were reversed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

I still want to have empathy for him. I don't want to lose my humanity in this. And it's just very, very, very hard. And I think a lot of. A lot of Christians this week are waking up to realizing how many friends and churches that they know are actually support white supremacy and bigotry or at least tolerate it in some way.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And that is a very isolating experience. It can be very disillusioned. Illusion. What's the word? Disillusion, whatever.

[Tim Whitaker]

Disillusioned, yes.

[April Ajoy]

And there's a grief that comes with that. But I want to say, if you're feeling that way, don't let them gaslight you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

You're not alone. You know, we'll just. There. You trust those instincts. Your instincts are right.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. I think you said it really well. I don't really have anything else to add to that. I. I share your sentiments 100%. In many ways, it kind of feels like 2016 all over again, where you're like, are you guys, like, seeing the same stuff I'm seeing? Are you reading the same words I'm reading? Are you hearing the same talks I'm hearing from this person? Right. It's just. It's very jarring. I also think it's another, like, apocalyptic moment, like another revealing of, oh, this was way. This was way deeper than I thought. And I say that as someone who, again, tracks this stuff for a living, I was like, wow, I didn't realize how many just rank and file people that I knew or have known. And we're all in on this kind of talk and don't understand it to be problematic as a Christian. That's what I think. I still have Always wrestled with. I mean, this is one of the first things I'll tell this story, then maybe we can wrap. But the first time I ever went to Turning Points America Fest, it was three years ago. Now I've been to three of them. Huge event, right? Tens of thousands of people. I'm in the belly of the beast, so to speak. And I end up being introduced to Rob McCoy, who is Charlie Kirk's pastor. And I'm like, wow, this is really great. And we start talking. We're very cordial. Of course, I'm very honest. Look, I'm here because I'm on the opposite side of this, but I'm a Christian. And I ask him, I say, can you help me? I said, honestly, Pastor Rob, I wanted to respect him. I didn't want him to be thinking that I'm a bad faith actor. I said, pastor Rob, can I ask you a question? It's in good faith, I promise. It's a good faith question. I want to understand. And he said, sure. I said, okay. Help me understand how you and I both believe that it's our job to follow the teachings of Jesus, right? The loving, your enemy, turning the other cheek, blessed are the meek, et cetera. How do you and I both agree there? But then at events like this, where there's so much dehumanization and so much enemy making and calls to destroy the other side and, you know, demonization, like, how do you see it? Because I look at this and I go, I don't really understand how that's congruent with the red letters. And I was so excited to hear his answer because I've had that question in my head, and I always wanted to find someone. Like, I always wanted to find an answer straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. You know, not from, like, a pundit, not from, like, an Internet clip, but, like a real conversation. So how can people vote for a guy who embraces all these things that I don't understand? And his answer was that he gave me, like, a short sphere, you know, a short talk where he went through seven points of how Trump is a good godly man, how he's a good businessman, how he's a good family man. I'm just. I'm, like, literally listening to him truly aghast in my head. I'm like, oh, it's the same thing I've heard from, like, people on the Internet. Like, there actually is no deeper logic to this. You're just. You kind of sidestepped all of the points of Jesus and just gave me like this pro Trump, prepackaged speech. And again, he was super kind and he was super sincere. I thanked him for the answer and I let it go. But that was the moment I knew. I'm like, yeah, I think we actually are on two very different paths, worshiping two very different Jesuses. Because if that's the guy who's discipling Charlie, if that's his answer, I had nothing to add to that. But besides, to say that we're just at odds, we're at odds. This isn't an interpretation difference. This is just fundamentally, we see the world incredibly differently. And, you know, I wrestle with that because I always want to hold that hope that people can repent and turn and go the other way. Like how you and I did April. Right. You and I grew up in those spaces. We embraced that and we went the other way. And at the same time, I'm just not hopeful because for decades, people in white evangelical spaces have been brainwashed by a very potent combination of evangelical fundamentalism in the theological realm and right wing authoritarian politics. Yeah, they, and they've been merged. And that's two very high control ways of thinking that have now combined to make a very powerful stew that is very hard to escape if you don't, if you're not really curious. And I think most white evangelicals are just not curious enough to think outside of their own walls. And they're just content. And that's all I can say.

[April Ajoy]

And they don't have to think about it. They've got, they have that white privilege. They don't need to think about the plight of black Americans or indigenous people or immigrants. It doesn't affect them.

[Tim Whitaker]

It gives them a sense of meaning, gives them a sense of mission, a purpose. They have community. They, they, they, they, they are taught every day that, that, that they are right. They're, that they're on the right side of everything. They're not taught to ever examine their own beliefs or be critical or to think twice about people who are in power over them. It's just, why, why would you leave that? It's comfortable as hell, you know, and if you're really good, you can make a lot of money doing it. Like, I'm sure, April, you and I have had, I've had the thought, I'm like, you know, if I ever was a bad faith actor, man, I could just go over to Rumble and make a killing. Like, I could just go, I can go full on MAGA and make a killing in those spaces. And I'll tell you now, I am not making a killing in this space like that. That's okay. It's not about that. But, like, you know, the money is there, the notoriety is there, the spaces are there.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Must be great. Anyway.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Yeah. I just. I want to point out a couple of things. One is that I do think it is telling. For me, anyway, I don't think they would see it this way, but they would. They would not call us Christians. We are. We are here. And we're blasphemers and they assume the worst about us. Right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Where you and I, like, we. We're committed to none. Dehumanizing. Like, we don't dehumanize people. We also try to. Like. I feel like we understand the Christian nationalist, because we were once that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And a lot of. I would say the majority of people that get caught up in this world are not inherently bad people, which is a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. They're heavily indoctrinated. They're very ignorant. There. There are a lot of things. But. But we try to make sense space to understand where they're coming from because it is easier to converse with someone and to eventually, hopefully change their mind if you understand where they're coming from. So there's a level of grace that we hold for them. Not. Not that they even deserve it, but we. There are people that had grace for us when we changed, and I think we should have grace for them as they change. The second point that I want to make, I do feel like there's a lot of grief happening right now, and a lot of people are scared, and I think rightfully so. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of hope. But I have seen several people online and some people that have messaged me personally that maybe weren't fully aware of Christian nationalism up until this point that now are. And so even though a lot of people on the right are saying Charlie Kirk was this big awakening for a lot of people to be more radicalized, I do think that's true. But a lot of other people are waking up, too, just to see the conflation of nationalism and the Christian faith in America. And I think we're going to see, and I've said this this whole year, we're going to see another big wave of deconstruction. Like, I really do believe that. And that gives me hope that. That there will be people who thought they were following the teachings of Jesus and when they realize what their pastor is teaching them is not of Christ. They will leave.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. And hopefully we could be there to help catch them and walk them through a very disorienting time that you and I both have.

[April Ajoy]

Welcome to the fight against Christian nationalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

Welcome to the resistance.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, we have cookies.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

I don't have a cookie. I would love a cookie.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, we have a lot of coffee and, you know, some solidarity, you know, I mean. Yeah, that's great. Well, listen, I mean, hopefully this was helpful for people to kind of understand some of the dynamics that are underpinning, you know, just how the church, the white evangelical church, is thinking about Charlie, you know, and his legacy versus how other people are. And like we said, obviously, it's unjustifiable thing, and we condemn it as well, with the school shootings that happened that day and the death of Melissa Hortman. And we hope that something will give where our politicians finally wake up and think about gun reform. Seriously, that will. That will minimize the amount of deaths that we see that are just unjustifiable instead of increasing them. So that's the goal.

[April Ajoy]

In honor of today being another Rapture Day, can we just play Brother Joshua's video real quick so people can hear the prediction? It's not very long.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Today or tomorrow, y'.

[Tim Whitaker]

All. I think it's this one.

[April Ajoy]

Rapture.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go. All right, here we go.

[April Ajoy]

Brother Joshua.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let me pull it up on my screen.

[April Ajoy]

He had a vision where he met Jesus, and so he's saying what Jesus told him.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go. Appeared in front of me and told me on the 23rd and the 24th of the Feast of Trumpets in September 2025, I will come to take my church. There you go.

[April Ajoy]

You know what? We played this clip when Janice Legata was. Was guest hosting with me when you were gone, and she was like, I hope it happens. And I. I want to just acknowledge what she said and just say, you know what? I think I actually also hope it happens.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. And, Janice, if you're listening, I'm so sorry it didn't happen. Maybe next time. Well, friends, thank you so much for being here. It means the world. We would love your thoughts. You can drop a comment below. Make sure to subscribe to the YouTube channel. Give this video a. Like, if you don't always catch us on YouTube. This also goes to our podcast, so you can listen to us on podcasts. You can give our show a rating and review. A review there. But, yeah, that's all I got for this one. How about you, April?

[April Ajoy]

Anything else yeah, no, I. I think we're good. Oh, also, if you have not let us left us a review on Apple, we've got a couple, like, one stars lately of people saying that we're heretics and blasphemers. So if you want to, like, counteract that, that would be cool. That'd be so nice, you know, four or five stars. Whatever. Whatever. You feel led to give, it takes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Feel led to let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart and be a cheerful giver.

[April Ajoy]

Yes. Smile as you rate us. Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you. All right, friends, catch y' all next time. See you later.

[April Ajoy]

Bye.