← The Tim & April Show
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You're listening to a new evangelicals production.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
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The Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Ajoy.
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I'm Tim Whitaker and I have the jitters.
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I know this is exciting because we're live as usual on our YouTube channel, but today for the first time, we are also streaming live on Lincoln Square Media substack. So hello to everyone. Hi at Lincoln Square.
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B
This is crazy.
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A
It is crazy if you don't know a little bit about us. For the new people that may be seeing us for the first time and being like, who on earth are these two people? We have a regular show called the Tim and April show on YouTube and on podcast where we usually try to talk about Christian nationalism. We try to decode it for people that didn't grow up in that world as Tim and I both did. Grew up in that it fully embraced it and left it behind. If you're interested in kind of hearing more about our particular stories and why we talk about what we do, we actually have it. It's episode two on our podcast, the Tim and April show or on YouTube if you go back seven months ago. It's called We Left Christian Nationalism and America Should Too. And that'll just give you kind of a brief overview because we don't have time to do that today because we have a jam packed.
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B
Jam packed. Oh my gosh, so much.
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I know. You could also follow us on our personal substacks. Your Tim Whitaker speaks. Yeah. Yep, yep. And I'm at aprilajoy. I also have a book somewhere called Star Spangled Jesus.
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B
Wait, wait, you don't have like, do you have a close up version of it?
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I do. I have this one here.
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There we go. Yeah.
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Star Spangled Jesus Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding a True Faith. And actually my paperback releases this coming Tuesday on September 30th.
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So super exciting. That's awesome.
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Anyway, you can learn more about us there.
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Awesome. Yeah, I love that. And so just a couple things about me. So you all know, first off, I produce this show in real time. So if you see me looking this way or over here, over here, I have all these screens up, trying to grab content as we're talking about stuff. I'm watching YouTube chat. I'm watching the substack chat. So I'm trying to keep my eye on everything while engaged with all of you.
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So.
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So my name is Tim Whitaker. I'm the founder of the New evangelicals. It's a 501C3 digital first nonprofit that is committed to exposing Christian nationalism and giving Christians a better path forward in their faith rooted in love, justice, and inclusivity. And they're the organization that produces this show. So we're under the TNE Media Network, and to our substack audience, you will see this happen pretty often. One of the things that we do on this show is we read all super chats that we get from YouTube live on the air. It's our way of saying thank you to all the folks who financially support us. As a nonprofit organization, this show is completely paywall free because of people being able to give donations or super chats like this, like Mikayla's, that says, finally catching y' all live. Howdy. Good to see you, Mikayla. Howdy. Hi. Yeah, exactly. So that's a little bit about me. We'll kind of dig into more about TNE kind of throughout the show because we have a ton of free resources, a ton of different spaces for you to engage with if you're interested. Especially for folks who are Christians who are really perplexed at the state of American Christianity. Let me just say that I understand. I grew up deeply embedded in that movement as a former homeschooler myself. And April has a similar journey, although we were kind of in different spaces in the evangelical tradition. And we're here to give you guys resources, places to go to help you find a better path forward in your faith, because shocker alert, you don't have to be a Christian nationalist to. To be a Christian. I know, I know I'm gonna blow some minds today, but it is very possible, dare I say, maybe even more faithful to the way of Jesus by leaving Christian nationalism behind. So that's my little spiel, and we'll get all into that today for sure. So thanks for being here. It's so great to be with all of you.
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A
Yeah. And for those who might be completely, you know, not religious or atheist or agnostic, just so you know, we are not here to try to convert anybody. We are Christians, but we call it Christian nationalism, and we believe that everybody's beliefs and values like is are valid. So.
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Yes, exactly.
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Former Christian agnostic. We have a lot of atheist friends that join us.
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So a lot.
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So this is not a bait and switch.
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Well, not yet. Right? I mean, secretly we're all praying for all of our atheist friends to convert. Right? Wink, wink. Now I'm just kidding. We're not doing that. We're just fooling around.
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Yeah. So I think we're just going to dive right in to our episode that.
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We bring our new audience right into the deep end, you know?
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A
I know. Because we have so many clips, so many clips that we're going to react to and kind of go through. So if you, if you are friends or know anyone that's like really conservative Christian maga, you might have seen people talk about how Charlie Kirk's memorial service was a revival, how it was the gospel spread and like, how could any Christian be against what happened during that memorial? Because it was all about Jesus. And yeah, they opened up with hours of worship music. Hours of. It was Chris Tomlin, it was Kerry Job Carnes and Cody Carnes and Brandon.
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Lake, like the biggest worship leader right now in America. Yeah. And by the way, we're not playing this audio because on YouTube we will get a copyright strike and we'll be demonetized. So I'm forced to not play the audio for this section. I'm sorry. But for those who know the Christian worship world, they're playing what a beautiful name. Um, and just keep that. I just want to say as we kind of tee up walking through this, this service, keep in mind that they opened up praising a Jesus who was a brown skinned immigrant who was born under the occupation of Empire. Just keep that in mind in the back of your head as we navigate what we're going to be watching.
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Okay. Before we get into these clips. So we started off with a bunch of worship music. Right. I do want to, I do want to acknowledge that if you only showed up for like those first, like the worship set and maybe even the first couple speakers, few speakers at this memorial, it did feel very, just normal Christian. Right. You're talking about Jesus, you're, you're saying holy, holy, holy is your name. You're talking about Jesus dying on the cross. Like it's, it's very typical Christian. And if that was all you saw, you would think, yeah, this is just kind of a Christian event. And I want to point out too, so we're going to go, we're going to show like the more Christiany side of things first because we do want to acknowledge like it was not all just political.
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Yes.
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And I think I, I want to make a point out because I think A lot of people that didn't grow up in this world, it's so obviously hypocritical to the teachings of Jesus. When you're on the outside of it and you can read, you know, what Jesus said objectively and compare that to the Trump administration regime that's happening and be like, those two don't go together.
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Right.
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But when you're in it, it's kind of like the frog in the boiling pot, Right. When you first go in, the water feels good, right? You go in, it's worship music. There's nothing to be alarmed by. You're just singing worship songs. And then you have a pastor that comes out and talks about Charlie's faith and how he loves his family. And we'll get on to that. But then slowly, as you see these clips, notice the dial gets turned up and by the end of it, we're full on partisan politics with God still sprinkled in throughout, which is enough to keep people thinking, yes, this is just Christian. And this is how you see so many people that have a. That are able to conflate the very partisan nationalist life that Charlie Kirk lived and say, oh, no, he was just a Christian martyr.
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Exactly. Also, I would love to know from the substack audience, because this is a brand new audience for us, how many of you grew up maybe in this kind of world or how many of you are not part of it. So if you're comfortable putting in the chat, if you grew up Christian or non Christian, it just helps us kind of, because one of the hard things is that there's so much. There's so many layers to the evangelical world. And April and I are just so used to code switching between the two worlds because we've been in both for so long now that sometimes we can say things that might go over some people's heads. So we'll do our best to kind of explain terms. And so we are seeing. I can see the chat. So if you have a question, we'll do our best to answer it. One thing I really want to highlight before we get started here is two very important things. First off, on this show, we. We are very committed to non dehumanization. As April and I have said many times, the killing of Charlie Kirk was unjustifiable. It was wrong, it was bad. We completely condemn it. In fact, a lot of my work entails going to Turning Point USA events to cover them. I've met Charlie Kirk several times. I've met people on staff at Turning Point usa, and my heart truly goes out to them. I mean, it is. On a human level, what happened to Charlie was horrible and unjustifiable. I also want to say that people, some people at this funeral were really mourning. We're going to see a few clips where it's like, very clear, you know, that, that, that, that, that, that, that so and so was really mourning the death of Charlie Kirk. Kirk left behind a wife, right? Erica Kirk. And while we have our critiques, she's still a human being who is mourning the loss of her husband. She has two young girls, E.T. cetera. So I just want to say that, that we can hold space for both things, right? We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can remember the humanity of the people that we are talking about, while also acknowledging that the bigger system they're a part of is really harmful to our neighbors and that there's a better path forward. So I just think that those two caveats are really important as we navigate what is really, in a way, a sensitive thing, because it does involve death and it involves a tragic assassination. We don't want to forget that and lose our own humanity. But we also have to be truth tellers and acknowledge how people are using this. Right. For the sake of more power and more control.
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All right, let's start off so the first speaker of the night. And we're. We have these in chronological order of when they came out on in the memorial service. So first up, we have Pastor Rob McCoy, who is Charlie Kirk's pastor. And so we just want to play the very clear Christiany part of this service.
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That's right. I. I've met Rob McCoy several times. He really is Charlie Kirk's pastor. And again, if you went to something, this, this is a pretty typical conservative evangelical message of, like, how they see the gospel. And that's important to understand. So I'm going to play this whole clip. It's a little longer, but I just think it's worth it. And then at the end, you're going to hear the switch. So just pay attention to that. Here we go. You're going to hear of what Charlie did, but I'm here today to tell you the why in what he did. The why brought him the courage. The why brought him the wisdom and the strength. The why is the one that Charlie wanted to welcome as the guest of honor. The guest of honor. His resume is long. He's the king of glory. He's the prince of peace. He's the savior of the world. He's the living God. He's The God of all mercy and grace. Mercy and grace. The total embodiment of love, the total embodiment of truth. And he's here today to call his children back to him from the thin veil of heaven. Charlie declares to all earthly powers and principalities who will gather here, they have come into the presence of the God of all creation. Charlie wanted his Savior to be the guest of honor. He wanted all of you to receive this gift from him. The why and what he did. Charlie was never afraid because he knew his life was secure in the hand of God. Jesus left the glory of heaven's throne for the humiliation of an earthly cross. He was fully tempted, yet was without sin. For those of you who struggle with the word sin, it's real simple. It's an archers term. Where the bullseye is and where the arrow lands, that's called the sin distance. How far you've fallen from perfection. And there are none righteous.
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No, not one.
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We've all missed the mark, the bullseye. And we try to get to God by our efforts, but there is no effort that will bring us back into the presence of a righteous God. You see, the wages of sin is death. Charlie knew this. And at an early age he entrusted his life to the Savior of the world. Jesus came to this earth, was tempted in all ways, yet was without sin, was crucified upon a cross. His blood was poured out because blood must be shed for the remission of sins. And his death upon that cross was sufficient for all the world's sins, but only efficient for those who, like Charlie, would receive him as their Savior. Jesus has come to seek and save that which is lost. And I would say this to all of you. The Lord loves you. He wants to save you. He wants to give you a new life. He wants to cover the multitude of your sins by the blood he shed upon the cross. The Bible says if you believe in your heart and you confess with your tongue, Jesus is Lord, you will be saved to the glory of the Father. You see, Charlie looked at politics as an on ramp to Jesus. He knew if he could get all of you rowing in the streams of liberty, you'd come to its source. And that's the Lord. And there it is, There it is, there is, there is the subtle switch.
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The on ramp to Jesus.
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It's right there.
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And I also noticed too, like if you're not paying attention and you are not aware of the nationalism that has co opted so much of American evangelicalism, right? Historic like. And this is not a new thing, right? It has been subtly there for decades.
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Right?
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But. But he. He gives this very Jesusy message, right? That is a very typical pastoral gospel Jesus method.
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So many times. I've walked the aisle so many times after that, right? 100%.
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Right. And then right at the very end, politics was the on ramp to Jesus. Like, it's so subtle. Like if you blink, you miss it. Yeah, right.
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100%.
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And it's also interesting too, when you compare. Like, he brings up the Prince of Peace and later we're gonna hear from the Secretary of War.
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Right? Right, exactly. I mean, he's. This is why, I think, April, folks like you and I got to a point where we were like, wait, the math ain't mathing? Because you heard Rob McCoy, Jesus is the perfection of love and of grace and of mercy and forg all these things that, like, frankly, sound beautiful. Now, we could critique his theology. That's a whole different discussion, but for what it is. Like, okay, that's a nice message. But what follows after these kinds of pastoral folks on the stage are people who embrace the opposite values, right? It is a stark contrast between this God of love and mercy and forget this. And these politicians of war, of hatred, of enemy making, Right? It doesn't add up. And that's why we wanna start with this verse. This is how the event starts, right? You have this worship set with these beautifully orchestrated songs about how God's name is beautiful, Jesus is beautiful. Rob McCoy comes up, gives this pretty typical evangelical gospel message about a God who is loving. And then we move right to another person. His name is Frank Turek. Now again for the audience who knows this world, we all know who Frank Turek is. But for folks who are just joining us, maybe on Substack for the first time via Lincoln Square, which, by the way, hello, welcome in. It's so good to have you guys. Hopefully you find our show helpful as we help you decode Christian nationalism. Frank Turek is a very popular apologist in the evangelical world. Apologists are people who make a living trying to make a defense for the conservative evangelical faith. They go to universities, they go to college campuses, they go wherever to debate atheists or to talk to college kids. And Frank is one of the people who got really involved with Turning Point a few years ago. I've also met Frank Turek before at Turning Point USA's America Fest, and they had Frank speak. Now, I want to say one thing before I hit play, before this, before this clip, you should know that Frank describes that he was 25ft away from Charlie when he was Killed. And he was in the car when they tried to revive him. Now, I just want to say, on a human level, that's an incredibly traumatic experience to watch someone get shot in the neck and then bleed out in front of you who you considered a very good friend. We have to acknowledge that. So I have a lot of grace and empathy in that respect to Frank. In fact, I think that he should be probably going to therapy to process what just happened, because it's clearly a traumatic event. But they did have him speak. And here's a little clip of what he said after Rob McCoy spoke. Here we go. That play button. Now, I want you to know that Charlie right now is in heaven. Not because he was a great husband and father, not because he saved millions of kids out of darkness on college campuses, not because he changed minds and chased votes to save the country, not because he sacrificed himself for his savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his savior sacrificed himself for Charlie Kirk. So again, we could spend all day unpacking each of these clips. April, we could do a full.
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Charlie Kirk saved thousands from darkness.
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No, millions. Millions of kids from darkness.
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A
Like, he didn't. Like, Charlie Kirk was not going to these college campuses giving people the gospel, despite what they say he gave very partisan politics.
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B
Yes. And he debated 18 year olds.
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I mean, and here's the thing. We. We could show clip after clip after clip after clip.
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B
Oh, my gosh. Exactly.
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Charlie Kirk saying very harmful, bigoted things, Right?
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Yeah.
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A
A lot of these people, though, if they see those clips, they'll say, well, I was just taken out of context, as we have seen. But they see clips where he does say, like, I love God, I love Jesus, Jesus is my savior. Like, the. The two things coexist. Because when you are a Christian nationalist, whether you have that, whether you, like, claim that label or not, your political beliefs and your theology are so intertwined that you don't know where one begins and the other ends. They are one and the same. Which is why you can have a memorial event that is so political, as we're going to see.
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Yep.
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And so many Christians think that just the gospel was shed. I want to point out, too, something I thought. Do you have the flyer that. That turning point?
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Do I have the flyer?
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April?
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I'm a pro. Of course I do. Let me grab it.
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A
I found it very interesting that. So the turning point. This is the graphic, right? Turning point, the memorial, Remembering Charlie Kirk. Right. There's three photos on this flyer. You would think, since it's a memorial service, that the person being Memorialized. Their photo would be on here, but it's not. It's Erica Kirk, Donald Trump, and J.D. vance.
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Yep.
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And then. And look at everyone that's listed. You've Got Marco Rubio, JFK Jr. Pete Hegseth, Tulsi Gap. Everyone that's listed are all political pundits.
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Yep.
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The pastors are not listed on this flyer.
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Right.
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A
I just found that interesting. Well, I don't know.
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B
Okay, look, I don't. April, you know me. You and I have been friends for a long time. I don't like having to talk like this. But we have to ask the question. Where's Charlie's parents? They didn't speak at this event. Now, now, look, to be clear, a lot of things are possible. Perhaps Charlie's parents said, look, we don't want to be a part of the spectacle. We want to mourn our son in private. We don't want to become a public target. So we're going to say no. And that's. That is completely plausible. Okay. Completely plausible. But I just. I do wonder, like, where was his family in this? You know? So, again, it's just. It's hard to know, because the Turning Point's been doing this for a long time. Their Turning Point. America Fest production is a massive production. They know how to do events, they know how to stage things, they know how to do the pomp and circumstance. So it's just hard to know fact from fiction. It's hard to know what's legitimate and what isn't legitimate. And frankly, that's how propaganda works. Right. The reason why propaganda is successful is because there's usually a little bit of truth somewhere in the middle. Or somewhere in the middle of all of it. It's not pure bs. There's, like a hint of truth.
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A
Right.
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B
And then that gets used to false narrative. Exactly.
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A
Yeah, exactly. We do have another super chat that I want to get to before we.
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B
Goodness.
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A
Move on from Charlie. I don't know if you see that.
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B
Let me find it. Oh, I got it. Here it is.
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Charlie says, so I'm gay. Very similar story to April's brother. My mom tried convincing me Kirk didn't hate the gay community. I disagreed. She said I was the hateful one. Ever since I came out, she doesn't trust me. I'm so sorry, Charlie.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I also just want to point out, too, like, when you're in that world, you convince yourself that being hateful towards the gay community is actually being loving because it's hard truth. But that is a total other.
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B
Oh, my Gosh, Conversation. This is why we do this show every week, because we cover all these topics.
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A
Okay, so now do you have a ad?
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B
Yeah, well, I just have a promo stop. But before we move on, so we want to give you a few clips of just like the more Christian evangelical presentation that started out the event.
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A
We're moving on. This is where the, the, the dial gets turned way up. So next we have Stephen Miller.
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B
Wait, wait, wait, hold on. I have a question. You said that you pulled these clips chronologically. So after, after this whole worship side, the first political person was Stephen Miller.
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A
Well, no, no, there's people that we're not pulling. This is in chronological order based on who we're pulling. So I don't know who. Oh, you know what?
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B
I had that because, like, what a shift to go from Frank Turek being like the gospel to Stephen Miller.
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A
I had the order pulled up, but I forgot. I don't know who exactly was before Stephen Miller. There was like a few different ones kind of in the middle that spoke on Charlie Kirk's. Like, on a more personal level.
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B
I have two clips from Steven. Which one should I play first? The longer one or the you are nothing one? I mean, there's two.
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A
I don't remember. I don't know.
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B
Let's just go with the longer clip first. I mean, why not, right? Why not? I mean, yeah, listen, if we're going to join a new platform, let's just go right into the deep end. Yeah. What's up? Were you going to say something?
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A
Oh, no, I wasn't. Yeah, let's just go. Move on. Let's do it.
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B
All right, I'm coming. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Okay, here we go. So, yes, we all know Stephen Miller, right? We all know Stephen Miller. So again, keep in mind, friends, the first half. What a beautiful name of Jesus. A good and loving God, mercy, grace and forgiveness. And at the same event, honoring the life of Charlie Kirk. We got this guy and here's what he said. Here's a two minute clip. The storm whispers to the warrior.
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That.
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You cannot withstand my strength. And the warrior whispers back, I am the storm. Erica is the storm. We are the storm. And our enemies cannot comprehend our strength, our determination, our resolve, our passion, our lineage and our legacy hails back to Athens, to Rome, to Philadelphia, to Monticello.
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A
Our ancestors built the cities.
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B
They produced the art and architecture. They built the industry. Erica stands on the shoulders of thousands of years of warriors, of women who raised up families, raised up city, raised up industry, raised up civilization who pulled us out of the caves and the darkness into the light. The light will defeat the dark. We will prevail over the forces of wickedness and evil. They cannot imagine what they have awakened. They cannot conceive of the army that they have arisen in all of us because we stand for what is good, what is virtuous, what is noble. And to those trying to incite violence against us, those trying to foment hatred against us, what do you have? You have nothing.
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A
You are nothing.
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B
You are wickedness. You are jealousy. You are envy. You are hatred. You are nothing. You can build nothing. You can produce, nothing. You can create nothing. We are the ones who build. We are the ones who create. We are the ones who lift up humanity. You thought you could kill Charlie Kirk. You have made him immortal. You have immortalized Charlie Kirk. And now millions will carry on his legacy. Can I say one thing briefly and I'll give it to you, April, because I saw some comments coming in of, I can't listen to this guy and listen. That's totally your prerogative. The reason why April and I share these clips is because for a long time, we watched a lot of people in media, including progressive media, really like, not highlight just the vitriol that was coming out of the Christian nationalist right. And we believe that we have to be truth tellers and we have to show people what's being said here, even if it's uncomfortable. So we don't do it for shock value. We do it because April and I know where this stuff comes from, because we grew up in the world. I wouldn't say that. Would say it as bluntly as what Stephen Miller just said, but as you can see, they were applauding it. And so we have to be able to show you this so you understand why April and I and so many others are so deeply concerned about this Trump administration. It's not hyperbole, it's not exaggeration. We're not trying to sound like talk radio hosts that the sky is falling when it's not. This is very real, and it has serious consequences, especially for our most marginalized neighbors, our immigrant neighbor, our queer neighbor, you know, our disabled neighbor, et cetera, our bipoc neighbor. It has major consequences.
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A
Yeah. And I also just want to point out, too, there's been a lot of people online that compared Stephen Miller's speech here as having very similar rhetoric and very similar words to an actual famous Nazi who gave a eulogy or another Nazi who was killed, Horst Wessel. So a Lot of people are saying that a lot like, what he said is very similar rhetoric.
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B
Same cadence.
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The storm is coming. Yeah. Same cadence by Joseph Goebbels, who was a Nazi in 1932. This is from Snopes via Yahoo News. This is. This is the Nazi speech. Ready, people? Rise up and storm break loose. You are the witnesses, the builders, the will bearers of our idea and our worldview. We the people have awakened. We have risen against oppression. 15 million people have joined in an army of revenge. You men, women, and comrades are the bearers, witnesses, builders, and finishers of this unique people's uprising. We have served the truth and only the truth. For 12 years, they have insulted and outlawed and slandered and persecuted us for.
- [29:29]
B
Some of our detractors who are like, you guys called Trump a Nazi. First off, we didn't exactly do that. But if you wonder why, we compare what happened in Germany to what's happening now. Do you understand, like, honest honesty, right? When Trump calls immigrants the poison in the blood of our society, and Hitler called Jews the same thing, and then we say, hey, I don't know. That's kind of concerning. We're not making this up. We're not exaggerating claims, right? We have Stephen Miller, who is behind the horrific, dehumanizing immigration raids that are tearing apart families. April, do you know that we're. That currently we lost track of 1800 immigrants that were put into the concentration camp known as Alligator Alcatraz. We can't find them. We don't know what the government did with them. We have no freaking idea. Okay? Stephen Miller is behind that. And here he is at Charlie Kirk's funeral echoing sentiments like our friend Jamar Tisby says, right? History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. He's echoing sentiments that we can find in Nazi Germany. And we're supposed to be like, oh, you know what, guys? It's not what you think. No. And also, everything he says about the truth and about hatred and violence, it's a confession. It's a confession because we know what Trump says. We know what his base says, and we know how. More importantly, we know how they act. We know how they act when it comes to our immigrant neighbor. We have seen the videos. We have seen the white supremacist rallies when Charlie Kirk died, marching through the streets, you know, chanting, you will not replace us, et cetera. Like, this is real. This is real. So to our detractors out there, we are giving you evidence. We're not just making stuff up. I don't even wanna be hyper partisan. I hate being hyper partisan. I grew up conservative, you know, it's not about that. But like, my God, we should be deeply concerned at the kind of rhetoric that we are now tolerating as a society that is spewed out like a fire hose from this administration. It is batshit crazy that we're dealing with this and people have the audacity to say the left wing is so violent when we know the actual data. Certainly people with left wing ideology can be violent. No one's disputing that. And of course we denounce it. But to make it seem like somehow all the hatred in America is due to this quote unquote left wing, which who the hell even knows who that is, by the way? It's such an ambiguous term when they're the ones who are saying this kind of stuff at funerals. And a crowd that an hour ago was praising a crucified Jesus under the empire, under the boot of the empire, right, who was a brown skinned immigrant, are now cheering. That kind of rhetoric has to make you wonder what kind of brainworm is in their head that thinks somehow this is congruent. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
- [32:13]
A
I know, I know.
- [32:14]
B
Sorry, end of rant.
- [32:15]
A
I had to get off my chest. It is. And point out too, like throughout the clips that we're going to show, there's often they say they did this. You wanted to silence Charlie Kirk. They're speaking in vague terms, as you know, assuming that this, an entire group of people assassinated Charlie Kirk when it was the responsibility of one person. One person. And can we point out to you, I don't know if you have the headline, but they still have, they don't have any evidence that directly links Tyler Robinson's motivations to any left wing ideology.
- [32:50]
B
100%, 100%, 100%. And by the way, even if it was April and I would have no problem condemning it, that's also a huge difference. Yeah. While we're here, let's just say this, if you don't mind. April. So I saw a lot of people. Well, the left is celebrating the murder of Kirk. First off, I'm sure on TikTok and on Twitter you can find people, real people who probably did that. Okay. And by the way, to be clear, April and I fully condemn it. But if you look at the politicians, if you do, if you do a like for like of major influencers on the right and politicians on the right and how they talked about Nancy Pelosi's husband being Attacked. Okay. If you look at the tweet of Laura Loomer cheering on Joe Biden's cancer diagnosis, saying, I hope she suffer, he suffers. And then compare that to people like AOC or Zoran Mamdani, a man that was attacked by Tucker Kirk mercilessly for being is a Muslim and, you know, conquering New York City. Zoran Mamdami tweeted out, political violence has no place in America and sent condolences to Charlie Kirk. So when you look at it from. From an equal perspective, not just some random accounts on the Internet, which anyone can do, you can find an account that will say anything to prove your point. But when you look at how the right and the left talk about political violence of their opponents, there is a stark difference. A stark difference. And so please miss me with this nonsense that, like left wing commentators and pundits and politicians were celebrating this. They absolutely were not hard. Stop.
- [34:21]
A
Yep. Nope, you're absolutely right. Should we move on?
- [34:27]
B
Why not? Why not?
- [34:30]
A
We have Tucker Carlson.
- [34:32]
B
Oh, Tucker, I pulled the wrong clip. I pulled Marco Rubio. My bad.
- [34:35]
A
Oh, we can do Marco Rubio. We can do Marco Rubio.
- [34:38]
B
Which one came first? I'm looking at our life.
- [34:40]
A
I wrote Marco Rubio both before and after Tucker, and I don't remember which one was right.
- [34:44]
B
Okay, well, it's fine. Let's play Marco Rubio.
- [34:47]
A
Just declare, but Marco Rubio. So we're going to go back to a little bit of the Christian stuff. So keep in mind, too, when you're in this world, you're like, you. You're brought in initially under the, in, like, influence of, like, this is just a Christian, this is a religion, this is faith, right? Then you go really nationalist. There's a little politics. But then you come back and you see someone like Marco Rubio who brings back some more soft Christianese language. Foreign. Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a.
- [35:29]
B
Faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist.
- [35:34]
A
Because we believe there is a better path forward.
- [35:37]
B
We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus.
- [35:46]
A
But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support.
- [35:51]
B
So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you.
- [35:58]
A
Would you consider becoming a donor?
- [36:00]
B
Even a gift of $5 makes a.
- [36:02]
A
Huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering.
- [36:07]
B
People to put their faith into action.
- [36:09]
A
By rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors.
- [36:15]
B
Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today.
- [36:21]
A
You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.
- [36:29]
B
All right, here we go. That we were all created, every single one of us, before the beginning of time by the hands of the God of the universe, an all powerful God who loved us and created us for the purpose of living with him in eternity. But then sin entered the world and separated us from our Creator. And so God took on the form of a man and came down and lived among us. And he suffered like men and he died like a man. But on the third day, he rose unlike any mortal man. And then, and to prove any doubters wrong, he ate with his disciples so they could see and they touched his wounds. He didn't rise as a ghost or as a spirit, but his flesh. And then he rose to the heaven, but he promised he would return. And he will. And when he returns, because he took on that death, because he carried that cross, we were freed from the sin that separated us from him. And when he returns, there will be a new heaven and a new earth and we will all be together. And we are going to have a great reunion there again with Charlie and all the people we love. Thank you and God bless you. Yeah.
- [37:43]
A
So I saw a lot of people actually pointing to this, Ali Beth Stuckey being one of them. A lot of more prominent Christians that showed Marco Rubio's pretty gospel centric speech. You know, you're talking about going to heaven.
- [37:58]
B
Yeah.
- [37:59]
A
Which is very like Christianity, especially evangelical.
- [38:03]
B
Yeah.
- [38:03]
A
101.
- [38:03]
B
Yeah.
- [38:04]
A
Very, very evangelical.
- [38:05]
B
Right.
- [38:06]
A
And pointing to this saying, like, how amazing is it that the Secretary of State just gave the gospel message to millions of people on national tv and they were, you know, they're celebrating, right. Because they're saying, well, look, we have our Christian nation. We did it, right? Christianity, you know, like it. This is what we left England for, you know, like controlling religion.
- [38:37]
B
Right.
- [38:38]
A
Which is what's happening here. Because you have to know what it's like. Okay. If you were a Christian, it seems good on paper that you would have a Christian nation. Right. Because Jesus, the teachings of Jesus are good. And you believe that all morality and goodness comes from your God.
- [38:53]
B
Right.
- [38:54]
A
But what is not said is that Christian nationalism promotes a very narrow fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture. It is. It is one idea of Christianity, and it completely ignores the vast diversity within the Christian tradition. And they would say, too, that people like you and I are not Christians, that we don't. We don't. We don't get to be part of this Christian nation because our beliefs don't line up with what they believe.
- [39:25]
B
Yes.
- [39:25]
A
And so it's very harmful because you're going to get a lot of people who don't know better because they have a very shallow understanding of the Scripture and they have a very shallow understanding of politics in general.
- [39:37]
B
Yes.
- [39:38]
A
That are going to get sucked into this world thinking, oh, my gosh, this is so good because we are saving so souls for God. Because when you're in this world, there's nothing more important than saving a soul from hell.
- [39:50]
B
From hell.
- [39:51]
A
From hell.
- [39:52]
B
People are going to burn in hell forever if we don't save them.
- [39:54]
A
They believe if you do not share their exact beliefs, that when you die, you will burn in hell.
- [40:00]
B
That's forever. That's right.
- [40:02]
A
So you're getting all these people in to think like, oh, my gosh, this is such a great thing. We're saving souls. But what they're not saying is, like, you're bringing people in that's harming everybody else that doesn't believe what you say. This, like, this world is not good for most marginalized groups. It's pretty. It's not good for women, as we'll see. There's some patriarchal stuff that's coming down, too. It's not good for queer people. It's not good for immigrants. It's not good for pretty much any person of color, anyone who's not a white Christian or at least does not subscribe to that ideology. It's not good for them.
- [40:42]
B
That's right. Because this world, those statements about those theological statements come loaded with political presuppositions. Right. So that's why it's kind of like a Trojan horse. Because here's the thing, as a Christian, I can get behind the idea that Christ died on the cross and rose again. Like, yeah, that's a pretty common orthodox Christian belief among the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Protestants. Like, yeah, I would totally acknowledge that. But they have a very different understanding of the implications of what that means. And that's the difference. Right. That's why we can hear them and go, okay, yeah, this is pretty decent theologically, but Then we realize. Right. But for them, this is tied to a white centric, conservative ideology, politically, that says we can't allow people who are gay to flourish in society. We have to kick all the immigrants out. It tolerates white supremacist talking points, including platforming people who retired to white supremacist groups at Charlie Kirk's funeral, which we'll get into in a little bit. So, like, that's the thing is it's loaded with all this other kind of, I would argue, cultural baggage. Even though what they'll say is that they're not tied to culture, they're just preaching the gospel. That's a lie. Because the reality is all of us come from a culture. We all have a world that shapes how we understand the Bible and how we understand theology, salvation. That's why Christians have been arguing over this for so long. It's not nearly as clear as these people make it. And these folks are so militant in their beliefs that they literally believe that God has given them a special divine mandate to rule over America so God can bless it and then be a light to the other nations. They really believe that. This is why we call it Christian supremacy. It's not just about having personal theological beliefs or, you know, loving the. Your neighbor or taking care of the hungry and the poor. No, no, no. This is about power and control. This whole event was, in my opinion, a victory lap for Christian nationalists. Look, we've taken over government. We have people in the government espousing not just our theology, but also our politics. In the name of God. We've done the thing. And that's why people like April and I, many others, are so deeply concerned, because they wanted this for a long time, and they finally got it. And what we saw on Sunday was that victory lap, in my opinion.
- [43:06]
A
Yeah, and I. And I disagree with you slightly on the victory lap situation, because to me, I think I do. Like. I mean, I think in some ways, it's a. They're showing off. Like, look what we've done. But to me, like, think about it. Trump's approval ratings are as low as, like, any recent president that we've seen. He still has the Epstein list coming down.
- [43:25]
B
Oh, my God. I know.
- [43:26]
A
Like, to me, they are using Charlie Kirk to grab onto the power that they want to have but do not have yet. And I think a perfect example of what Trump is, what Trump just tried to do to Jimmy Kimmel. You have the fcc who basically said, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Get rid of Jimmy Kimmel.
- [43:45]
B
Right.
- [43:46]
A
The people said no and boycotted and canceled their subscriptions and brought him back. So. Which, I mean, which was after the fact. But I think it's twofold. I think there's a little bit of victory in there. But I think they did it because they are trying to use this moment to gain as much power as possible. Because generally speaking, the majority of people do not subscribe to these extreme views.
- [44:10]
B
That's right. They're in the minority. Yeah. Roughly. What is it? About 30% of Americans hold some form of Christian nationalist beliefs, according to PRRI. So that means that 70% of us, the majority of, would reject, you know, how PRI measures what a Christian nationalist is. So, yeah, they're definitely in the minority.
- [44:25]
A
I think it could be both. And.
- [44:28]
B
But you're always the peacemaker, April.
- [44:32]
A
I'm just trying to give us some hope.
- [44:33]
B
No, for sure. Which I appreciate. Speaking of hope, I had bad news. I can't find this Tucker Carlson clip. I'm not sure if I pulled it. Do you happen to have the link again? I can grab it real quick.
- [44:44]
A
I sent you a bunch. I gotta find out.
- [44:46]
B
I don't know which one it is. This is. We pulled a lot of clips, so I might have missed this one.
- [44:50]
A
No, not that one.
- [44:51]
B
Well, while April is doing that, let me just say again, friends, thank you so much for being here. Welcome in. If you're just joining on Substack for the first time, I'm Tim. That is April. This is the Tim and April Show. We go live every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern and we release a prerecorded podcast episode and YouTube video every Tuesday. So you can follow us on YouTube or on podcasts. And you can also catch us here with Lincoln Square right here on their sub stack. It's great to have you. We have almost 700 people watching this live on Substack. That is unbelievable. And almost 500 on YouTube. So that is still looking for it.
- [45:24]
A
But did you pull the guy that would. That used to work for Turning Point. That said, this is a revival.
- [45:29]
B
I have that. I know.
- [45:31]
A
I don't remember where he was in the order because I just play him. Yeah, go ahead and play him while I look for this.
- [45:39]
B
I can do that.
- [45:40]
A
He kind of says the quiet part out loud.
- [45:41]
B
No, he really does. He really does. Yeah. Okay, here we go. Let me pull up my screen here. Little clip for people. Oh, also, if you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to give this video a. Like, it really helps get it out to more people. It Does a lot of it does us a lot of favors. So thank you. Here we go. Oh, my goodness. Charlie's having some serious heavenly FOMO right now. Look at this. You have no idea how much Charlie Kirk wants a bullhorn down here right now. He always. He always said to me, if we could just figure out how to bring the Holy Spirit into a Trump rally. Think you've done it. My name is Tyler Boyer. I was. I was the CEO of Turning Point USA and now the CEO of Turning Point Action. You may know me from the Charlie Kirk show or our weekly podcast, Thought Crime with Charlie, Jack, Blake and Andrew, but I'm also the longest tenured employee at Turning Point. I met my friend Charlie in 2014. We connected when Turning Point USA was just in its infancy, sharing the vision for what the conservative movement should be. Charlie was just a kid then. I was a little older. We had a lot in common. I didn't like rhinos. He didn't like rhinos. I was the youngest guy at Tea Party meetings. He was the youngest guy at Tea Party meetings. There you go. Little clip from him. Yeah, it's a Trump rally. He said it right there.
- [47:15]
A
I mean, it felt like a Trump rally. And let's have. There was a lot of Christianity that was plastered during Trump rallies as well.
- [47:24]
B
Oh, so much. Okay, you gave me the clip. Perfect.
- [47:26]
A
I texted it to you.
- [47:28]
B
I got it.
- [47:29]
A
Cool.
- [47:29]
B
I just play this right on the Internet. Like, I'll just play it straight through the browser. It's not a big deal.
- [47:32]
A
Okay.
- [47:33]
B
Yeah, listen, we had a lot of clips to juggle.
- [47:37]
A
Apologies.
- [47:37]
B
I don't think I pulled so many. Yeah, I know. I'm looking at two different chats live, two different feeds live. It's all good, though.
- [47:44]
A
There's a lot.
- [47:44]
B
Okay. It's all right. All right, so here is. This is Tucker Carlson speaking. He got some flack for this. So let's hear what he has. Jerusalem. And I'll back it up here. Ultimately, he was a Christian evangelist, and it actually reminds me of my favorite story ever. So it's about 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem and Jesus shows up and he starts talking about the people in power and he starts doing the worst thing that you can do, which is telling the truth about people. And they hate it, and they just go bonkers. They hate it and they become obsessed with making him stop. This guy's got to stop talking. We've got to shut this guy up. And I can just sort of picture the scene in a lamp lit room with a bunch of guys Sitting around eating hummus, thinking about, what do we do about this guy telling the truth about us? We must make him stop talking. And there's always one guy with the bright idea. And I could just hear him say, I've got an idea. Why don't we just kill him? That'll shut him up. That'll fix the problem. That laugh is so bizarre, so weird. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. Everything is inverted. Ultimately, he was a Christian evangelist.
- [49:00]
A
Here he is comparing Charlie Kirk to Jesus, and there were other people that were comparing him as, like, the sacrifice that he gave, as if he chose to be murdered. Like, can we just, like, take a step back from this? Like, a lot of people are calling him a Christian martyr, despite the fact that what he promoted wasn't really Christianity, it was extreme right wing politics. But this guy, Charlie Kirk, was a podcaster and he went and argued with college students.
- [49:33]
B
Yep.
- [49:34]
A
For a living. Many, and I would say a lot of those arguments were in bad faith. But regardless, they rolled out the red carpet. You have every single, like, the majority of Trump's cabinet was not only there, but spoke. This was televised nationally. And I can't recall a time where this type of celebration, as someone being a saint, like, person happened. And, and like, I, I want to give some grace mainly for the family, because there's real grief right here when you lose someone that you love. And I'm not discounting especially that way. Right. But they are making Charlie Kirk something that he was not.
- [50:21]
B
Right. Right.
- [50:23]
A
It's just so wild. To me, I do hope, like, if there's a silver lining in this, like, obviously the people that are Christian nationalists, which, to be clear, most people who are Christian nationalists don't think that they are. They think they're just being good Christians because of their pastors and Fox News and Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson and all these people tell them.
- [50:40]
B
Right.
- [50:40]
A
But if you're not in that world, I do feel like this was kind of a wake up call for a lot of people to realize how Christian nationalism has taken over our government.
- [50:53]
B
It's not. I mean, yes, I completely concur with what you just said. I think it's really important to recognize that Charlie was not preaching the gospel. Charlie was trying to tie gun violence back to gangs. That was the last thing he was talking about. And trans people. And look, again, I say this as someone who has met Charlie, and on a human level, I completely empathize with his family and I completely reject his killing. It's Uncalled for. It's horrible. It's terrible. All the things. I'm never going to celebrate that. But also, we have to be truth tellers. Which, by the way, Tucker makes this comment that when people are told the truth about them, they get angry. I thought about how angry the right gets when we compare them to other movements in history that have done really bad things with evidence. Right? When we start talking about how, well, I don't know, Stephen Miller's speech kind of echoes, like, you know, the sentiments that someone else in Nazi Germany gave. Oh, how dare you. How dare you talk about that. How dare you make that comparison? Well, we're telling the truth. Like, again, we're taking Stephen's words. We're. We're comparing them to a speech given by someone in Nazi Germany. We're seeing the parallels. And then you're mad at us for telling you the truth. You're mad at us for telling you the truth about your movement. You're mad at us when we say, I don't know, guys. Trump is kind of divisive as he says over and over again that Democrats are the enemy of the state, that he hates his opponents, as we're gonna see in a few minutes, right? As he calls people ugly and gross, as he brags about sexually assaulting women, as he's found liable of sexually assaulting women. Suddenly we can't tell that kind of truth, Right? We're just disparaging God's anointed. So. So all the words that Tucker uses, this whole movement that will say things like that, they never mean. It's a. They never mean. Well, that also applies to us. And last thing I have to say, they make a living telling tropes about other minority groups. Charlie repeated the racist trope that black people commit more crime, which was debunked by, By Will Garris, by Garrison Williams over. I think that's his last name over at Mother Jones. That is completely factually incorrect, especially when you realize that over 55% of all exonerations are from. Are by our. Our black people, right? So there's a whole mantra there. So they actually don't even tell the truth. They consistently tell lies about their opponents. Immigrants are invading the country. They're criminals. They're horrible. They're. They're, you know, Mexico sending us their rapists and their drug. And their drug lords, right? That's a. Trans people want to destroy women in women's sports. That's a lie. So they actually make a whole living lying about their opponents and Passing it off as truth. The Bible says something about that. April. The Apostle Paul says they traded the truth for a lie and that is exactly what this movement has done.
- [53:38]
A
So, yeah, Matthew 15, 8, 98 says, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. I also want to point out too, that in 1930s Germany, the vast majority of the German Evangelical church overwhelmingly supported Hitler.
- [53:54]
B
Yes, we cannot forget that.
- [53:56]
A
So we have two more super chats that came through. Oh, did we? Did we read Joseph Compton, the fourth super chat? I don't think we did.
- [54:03]
B
No, we did not. Oh, wait, there's three that came in.
- [54:06]
A
Oh, okay.
- [54:07]
B
Okay. One from Deanna. I can read this one to all the new folks watching. Welcome to the fight against Christian nationalism. Many of us would be happy to answer questions over in the app. She's Are they referring to TNE Connect? You can join for free thenewevangelicals.com connect then we have one from Joseph Compton.
- [54:24]
A
And it says, this is blasphemous. I'm disappointed that these people truly think they're reaching people for Christ. All they're doing is creating folks with jacked up faith.
- [54:32]
B
And the last one from Dulc Dogan. What a name. Tucker. Adding in hummus comment felt calculated. Also, sorry for the things. Oh, sorry for the thumbs down. My thumb missed the thumbs up. No problem, dog. We forgive you. It's all good. Yes. Yeah, no, you're all good. Thanks for the super chat.
- [54:51]
A
Means praise the Lord if you do not grow and grow up Christian.
- [54:54]
B
Thank you for the translation. Hey, I did not. You have a couple other clips here. I didn't pull all of these. I just forgot, frankly. Why don't we go right down to JD Vance and then we can get into Erica and Trump. Because we're. We're over an hour here and we can be here all day.
- [55:06]
A
I just want to also point out Pete Hegseth. He went very Christian nationalism in his speech as well. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he alluded to like a revival coming or him being a. Anyway, he did that. And then Trump Jr goes on to say, we're not the people who suppress free speech. If you say something we don't agree with, we don't silence you. Which is just ironic considering what just happened. Jimmy Kimmel, Trump.
- [55:32]
B
Every day is like, we're going to sue this person. Can't say this. I'm mad. I'm going to take my press corps credentials. And then his son's like, we are the party of free Speech like get I can you. Do you think we're stupid?
- [55:44]
A
We're not going to play those clips just for sake of time. We're already. We just have so much to get to.
- [55:49]
B
They're on the Internet, so. All right, all right, let's play this clip then from J.D. vance. Sorry, friends, the show must go on. Oh, thank you for the two super chats. Appreciate this. That just came in from. I can't read this name. Let's see.
- [56:07]
A
APIs Las Louis. Louis A Pisla Sluy.
- [56:12]
B
Yeah. Oh, we are gonna play this clip from Benny Johnson, since you won't be getting to Benny Johnson. I want to live in a country where the evil are terrified and where the good and the faithful and the moral people of our nation can live in peace, debate in peace and disagree in peace. Yeah, we have that clip. We will play it. Let's get to JD Vance real quick and then we'll.
- [56:28]
A
One more too. Another one that says when. When MAGA and Christian nationalists call for peaceful debate, they mean debate among themselves after everyone else has been outnumbered and driven underground.
- [56:39]
B
Yeah, 100%. No, you're right. You're absolutely correct. As we're seeing with Kimmel. All right, let's keep it going. Here we go. Here is J.D. vancey's little line. Wow, he's really loving his attention. It's a long one.
- [57:00]
A
Wild.
- [57:04]
B
You know, I can't help but think that they tried to silence my friend Charlie Kirk. They tried to silence our dear friend Charlie Kirk. And today, tonight, we speak with Charlie and for Charlie, louder than ever. The evil murderer who took Charlie from us expected us to have a funeral today. And instead, my friends, we have had a revival in celebration of Charlie Kirk and of his Lord Jesus Christ. There you go again.
- [57:47]
A
Very clear conflation by the vice president. Yeah, that's inflating the celebration, which I. You can. It's a memorial service. Celebrate your friend. That's great. But they are conflating that with a revival. A revival? Do they know what a revival is? I mean, to them, they, the, the. The way that they're able to grab power from this, probably they. They do see as a revival. But like Charlie Kirk, this. The stuff that he said, just about black people alone.
- [58:24]
B
Right.
- [58:24]
A
Would be enough for me to never celebrate him as a Christian martyr.
- [58:29]
B
Right. Like, I, I don't get it. Okay, look, April, we could. We have like a thousand clips. Why don't we do this? Let's pull. Let's just. I want the audience to understand. Erica. Let's do The Erica clip and we'll do Trump and then we'll kind of move on to our, our last segment for the day.
- [58:43]
A
Okay.
- [58:43]
B
Does that sound good?
- [58:44]
A
We have a few things planned, but.
- [58:46]
B
But we're just way behind.
- [58:48]
A
Jam packed. Yeah.
- [58:49]
B
One thing I do want to say really quickly again, friends, if you're just joining in from the. From substack. Hi. The Tim and April show is happening here in partnership with Lincoln Square every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern. We also stream to YouTube and the new Evangelicals is the nonprofit organization that produces this show. I also wanna make a quick announcement. We have a new podcast coming out called. Well, I'll just play the little trailer that we have here. We have three shows that the New Evangelicals produces. The New Evangelicals Podcast, which I host, that's more about interviewing scholars and people at the forefront of culture, theology and politics. The Tiffany April show, which we get to do every week live and also do a prerecorded release every Tuesday. We have a brand new show coming out that will be a monthly show and here is the trailer for it.
- [59:41]
A
If you've ever wondered how you could put your faith into action, well, the new Evangelicals brand new show Advocacy Hour is for you. I'm Melinda Hale, executive director of tne, and each week I'll be joined by my co host for Rebecca Thomas, TME's board president, to spotlight ways that you.
- [59:56]
B
Can actively show up in the world advocating for justice, equity and compassion. We'll highlight faith based and secular organizations.
- [60:04]
A
Movements and individuals working to build a better path forward. We'll share honest conversations, inspiring stories and practical ways that you can make a difference. So join us once a month, starting September 30th on podcasts and YouTube for encouragement, awareness and how to put your faith into action.
- [60:33]
B
Boom. Super exciting. So TNE Advocacy Hour will happen once a month on both podcasts and YouTube. And the focus of this show is to help you be tied into people who are doing great work on the ground. So a big, a big question we get is what do I do? How do I get involved? Where are the organizations out there that are doing good work? And T and E Advocacy Hour is the podcast hosted by our executive director, Melinda Hale and our board president, Rebecca Thomas, interviewing people who are doing that work so you can get plugged in that will drop the first episode this Monday on podcast and on YouTube. So very, very exciting stuff. Yeah. All right, let's, let's get to Erica Kirk real quick and then we'll get ready to wrap this thing up. Friends, the whole reason we're wanted to devote the whole episode to this is because there's so many layers that are just so important for you to understand, because the evangelical industrial complex, as we call it, is very complicated, and it's not simple, and we have to give you the nuance and the layers. And we're trying to demonstrate how this world merges a certain type of theology with a certain type of nationalism and what it looks like when you're actually a part of that. April and I grew up in that world. Many people watching this grew up in that world. But for folks who didn't, it looks so obvious. It looks so at odds with itself. But when you grow up in it, you're given these frameworks that smooth out the inconsistencies and tell you that you're worshiping a God who died for you, but also wants you to take vengeance on your enemies. And somehow that is congruent with Christian teaching. So usually during our show, we cover a bunch of different topics. Like, you know, even this week, there were so many other news stories that we wanted to get to, but given how big the funeral of Kirk was, we devoted our whole life to it. But in the future, we definitely cover several news stories, not just one.
- [62:19]
A
Just FYI, like, we're not even getting to the whole. That weird Tylenol thing exactly what happened at the UN Maybe next week.
- [62:27]
B
I do think it's worth just pointing out briefly. I mean, you know, just kind of showing you guys this is how they had her walk out. And again, like, I want to hold space for two things. Erica is a real human being who is mourning the loss of her husband. Absolutely. And also, I don't know why you have sparklers going off as you walk out as the widow of this person. I just, like, I'm trying to wrestle with, like, the. The visual versus the reality of what she's going through. But here's what it looked like live for the whole world to see. I. I don't know, April. I just feel like it's odd.
- [63:14]
A
It's just a little odd. It's odd, but this is the same type of people. Like, this group also are those mega churches that have, like, Jesus flying in on a zip line for the, you know, the Easter service, and, you know, like, the idea of having this very performative The. The. The lights, the smoke machines, the pyrotechnics, like, that's just part of this world. It's like shiny Jesus.
- [63:37]
B
Yeah.
- [63:37]
A
You know, and I want to point out, too, something that is like, it deeply held within evangelicalism is they put so much more precedence on belief and what you say you believe versus what you actually do. And we talk about this a lot. It's how you're able to welcome someone like Russell Brand as this new Christian who has active, like, rape charges against him in England right now. But because he said the prayer and is this Christian now, he's welcomed in these circles. So it's, they value belief so much more than actual action, which is, which is why you have people that can look at this. And like, a lot of these people said the right things, right? They're saying the Jesusy things. So it doesn't matter that they're actually terrorizing immigrants every day.
- [64:23]
B
You know, I'm, I, I don't disagree. But also I think that there has been an evolution of where it's not just the belief, it is the right action. And the right action are, is maga. So not only do you have to say, because here's the thing, you and I, if we were talking to a Christian nationalist, theologically, we probably agree with many of the claims they would make, right? Christ dying on the cross rising again, maybe the virgin birth Trinity. Yeah, of course. But it's tied to these actions that are maga. Like, oh, but you also support queer rights. Oh, we're not a real Christian. It's like, wait, that's not in, like, any of the creeds. That's not, that's not a prerequisite to being a true Christian or not. So there is this, like, different kind of action that tolerates or accepts the fact that Jack Pose Beck, who we can't, we don't have time for, spoke at this event. Jack Pose Beck was the man behind Pizzagate. The conspiracy theory that there was a child sex trafficking ring at a pizza shop in Washington, D.C. that Hillary Clinton was running that caused a man to show up with a gun to that pizza shop to shoot off a lockdown, only to discover there was no basement to begin with. You know, that man can be platformed here as a good Christian patriot because he embraces maga. Therefore, he has this political ideology that gives him the street cred that they see as true Christian or not. So I think that is important.
- [65:37]
A
I want to point out one more thing. I've seen a few people in this comment section and then other places too, that were pointing out, why is she wearing white at a funeral? So I don't know particularly why she's wearing white, but I want to just say something. In this evangelical world, when Someone who's a Christian that you deem as one of yours dies, you almost are taught not to mourn them. You celebrate their life because you don't need to mourn them because they are in heaven. There's a lot of toxic positivity within evangelicalism because a sad Christian is not a good testimony. Because your entire point of living is. Is to be a good witness to people that you can save because you want to save their souls. Like when my dad died, we had a celebration of life service and we asked everyone to wear red because that was my dad's favorite color. And so we didn't want to wear black because we're not in mourning. We're celebrating someone because there's nothing sad about someone dying if they were a Christian because they got to go to heaven.
- [66:37]
B
Right.
- [66:37]
A
So. And I. So I don't know the reason why she particularly chose to wear white other than you could be the bride of Christ, which represents the church. You know, maybe her just trying to be more angelic. It could been a very well thought out thing, which I'm sure it was thought out. I don't know her particular reason, but wearing something other than black in evangelical at funeral services is a normal thing.
- [67:01]
B
Yep. Agreed. Now, this is about a three minute clip. Does it include the clip that you shared? Does it have her forgiving the shooters? Is that all on here?
- [67:09]
A
I know I sent both. Both to you.
- [67:11]
B
Okay, let's just play this for a little bit and see what she says.
- [67:14]
A
Yeah. Charlie passionately wanted to reach and save.
- [67:20]
B
The lost boys of the West. That is so loaded.
- [67:24]
A
The young men who feel like they have no direction, no purpose, no faith, and no reason to live. The men wasting their lives on distractions and the men consumed with resentment, anger, and hate. Charlie wanted to help them. He wanted them to have a home with Turning Point usa. And when he went onto campus, he.
- [67:51]
B
Was looking to show them a better path.
- [67:55]
A
And a better life that was right there for the taking. He wanted to show them that my husband, Charlie, he wanted to save.
- [68:15]
B
Young men.
- [68:18]
A
Just like the one who took his life. That young man, that young man on the cross, our Savior said, father, forgive them, for they not know what they do.
- [68:58]
B
That man.
- [69:01]
A
That young man. I forgive him.
- [69:20]
B
Can I. Can I pause you for a second? And can we just. We have to talk about this. We do. And I want to be as tactful as humanly possible, because again, we don't believe in dehumanization. And I want to hold space for Erica, that she is really, truly Grieving the loss of her husband. Right. That is a huge, life altering situation. But we have to say. I have to say two things. A lot of people pulled this clip and were like, look like there's nothing more Christ like than this. And by the way, I would agree on the surface that forgiving one's enemies is a powerful thing. I absolutely believe that it is moving. Absolutely. And the part of me that understands Christian nationalism and how they utilize this stuff and what they really mean does not see this as an, as a real forgiveness for two reasons. Number one, the organization that she is now running is focused on dehumanizing other people. It doesn't practice forgiving of enemies. In fact, it wages war on their enemies. Even Charlie has said that his message to the left is that they're going to outraise them, they're going to outfund them. There can only be one winner. They're the invaders and they're the true Americans. So the whole apparatus of the Turning Point USA machine is built on there's an evil demonic left that is coming for you and we have to defeat them. But the second thing, and this has not been talked about nearly enough. Okay. And you can call me cynical for saying this, but I think there's evidence that that proves my point. If this, if the man who shot him was a black man, was a transgendered person, was an immigrant, I don't think this would be the speech. I think Erica would use it as more proof that these people are evil and demonic. Look at how they utilized the horrible death of Lake and Riley, killed by an undocumented immigrant, as proof that we had to get all the immigrants out of the country. There was no forgiveness for Lake and Riley's murderer. It was only hatred and used to spin a broader narrative that these immigrants hate people. And so I think we have to. And you and I talk about this a lot. There is a whiteness below this. And I think because this is a white young man, the same person that Charlie's trying to reach, it's easier to offer this forgiveness as opposed to being a trans person, an immigrant, or any of the other things or types of people that Turning Point wages war on Hard Stop. And we have to call that out because this is a very selective forgiveness. Right? This is a very selective use of empathy and it has to be acknowledged.
- [71:47]
A
I also wanna point out too, there is a Twitter account called Smash Bails Balls B A L. Yes, I know who they are.
- [71:55]
B
Yes, they're terrible.
- [71:57]
A
So they tweeted after this. It is Completely biblical to forgive a murderer and still seek the death penalty.
- [72:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, this is. How is that forgiveness? I mean, you know, our friend Shane Claiborne over at Red Letter Christians, they advocate for abolishing the death penalty because they're Christians, because Jesus was killed by the death penalty. So we as Christians want to oppose those things. So, anyway, this is a much bigger conversation and we'll unpack it in further shows. Absolutely. But I just think we had to point that out. Maybe Erica really does forgive this person. And if she does, I'm really happy to hear that. But don't think that somehow this is Turning Point USA or the Mega Apparatus, you know, having a change of heart in general. Because it's not. Because right after this happened.
- [72:37]
A
Well, I want to say she also goes on in that speech to say, we cannot drive out hate with hate. We have to drive it out with love. So. And I will give her some grace as a widow.
- [72:48]
B
Yes.
- [72:48]
A
I know people say it looked performative. Some people said she looked like she was crying but didn't have tears. Like, I, I understand all of that. I'm going to give her grace as a grieving person, regardless of her intent. Because I don't know what her intent is in this moment.
- [73:03]
B
Right.
- [73:03]
A
What she said, though, I agree with.
- [73:05]
B
Yes.
- [73:06]
A
And I do hope people will take on to that. As you know, she's the new CEO of Turning Point, despite pushing a narrative that women should stay home and raise babies. So there's some irony there. But I hope that she takes that message and will actually act that out. Right. Because actions speak louder than words and it'll be interesting to see what happens as we move forward. I don't know, do you want to keep playing or do you want to move on to what Donald Trump says?
- [73:35]
B
Let's move on. I mean, here's just really quick. Erica did say this about the women men dynamic. I think it's really important to highlight here. It's just for a.
- [73:42]
A
Please be a leader worth following.
- [73:45]
B
Stuck in the men here.
- [73:45]
A
Your wife is not your servant. Your wife is not your employee. Your wife is not your slave. She is your helper. You are not rivals. You are one flesh working together for.
- [74:04]
B
The glory of God. Okay, really, just briefly, friends, I know we're getting close on time here. I know it's been a long live. Thank you for hanging in. We have so many people watching. It means the world. I don't want to belabor the point, but we have to hammer this home. So for a couple of things. First off, Charlie Kirk recently told Taylor Swift that she has to submit to her husband. Okay, so even Charlie wouldn't have, well, didn't espouse publicly that kind of view. And also, people in the farther right wing world were quite pissed at Erica for talking about the. The husband, wife dynamic in such a, I don't know, maybe a. A like, moderate way. So here's. Here's just a few tweets that. That we pulled from the Internet. Paul Elam says even in the midst of such a solemn event, Erica Kirk had to lecture the world's men as though they were all bullies and tyrants in their homes. And at this point, my money says she's likely to lead Turning Point right into a ditch. Sorry to even say, but commitment to the truth prevails here. Women are not designed to lead. One more comment I'll bring up here. Erica Kirk pushing out the same old feminist lies right now. Your wife is not your servant. Listen, I get your grieving and I'm sorry for your loss, but can you not be a worldly bitch spreading lies like everyone else? So, and honestly, this is the world that Erica's inhabiting. Doug Wilson, who Charlie Kirk has at his events, strongly believes that women are designed to make babies and make sandwiches. Erica flies in the face of what even Ali Stuckey would preach about a woman being primarily at home. She has several degrees. She's well educated, she's worth a lot of money. She's the opposite of the message that Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA were giving women.
- [75:42]
A
Yeah, we have a couple more super chats too. I don't want to forget them. I know. Which, thank you all so much. We have one from Michaela who said not to condone Erica's actions, but not being allowed to truly grieve has to take a toll on her.
- [75:57]
B
Agreed.
- [75:58]
A
I do agree with that. And I wanted to point out, too, she posted a video like the day after it happened. That was a completely different vibe than this speech here.
- [76:06]
B
Oh, yes, yes.
- [76:08]
A
We don't have time.
- [76:09]
B
Deanna Much says, oh, there's a donor matching fundraiser. Thank you for reminding me, Deanna. Tne right now has an anonymous donor who will match up to $2,500 in donations. So if you want to donate, you can go to thenew evangelicals.com donate to do that. That'd be so helpful. Again, it makes this show possible as well as all. As well as all of our other resources. And then Joseph Compton says, Erica Kirk is scary. Her eyes have malice in them. I know she's a grieving widow, but look at her eyes. And then the last one we have here from CV Clown. Again, wouldn't Charlie be insulted at the empathy? I don't disagree.
- [76:43]
A
Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, Executive Director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a.
- [76:51]
B
Part of our community.
- [76:52]
A
At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus.
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B
In real, tangible ways.
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A
As a nonprofit organization, not only do.
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We offer thought provoking podcasts, but on.
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A
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Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with.
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A
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- [77:16]
B
So if what we're doing has been.
- [77:17]
A
Helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE.
- [77:24]
B
Connect or make a donation.
- [77:26]
A
Your support means the world to us.
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B
Thanks for being a part of the movement and Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
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A
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Cue the emu music.
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By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts recently we asked some people about sharing their New York Times accounts.
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A
My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access the New York Times. Each day we compete for who gets to do connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day.
- [78:20]
B
And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day.
- [78:22]
A
And he's like, I know, I just couldn't resist. You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails. I really think our well being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this Kayla.
- [78:37]
B
We heard you introducing the New York Times Family Subscription. One subscription, up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more@nytimes.com family.
- [78:50]
A
Hi, my name is Ashley and I live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I'm a TNE donor because I believe wholeheartedly in the work that they're doing. Growing up, the word Republican was synonymous with Christian. It was implied that to be a Christian you had to vote a certain way. But around 2015, 2016, I started waking up and noticing the harmful us versus them mentality in our country, the harmful rhetoric from people like Trump or Sean Foyt, for example, just did not match up with the Jesus I knew and had been taught about for, you know, almost 30 years at that point. I'd say that was the catalyst for me to really just examine my faith. Tne content, I believe it inspires us to be a better and more loving neighbor to the people around us. And that is what I believe Christianity is about.
- [80:00]
B
Okay, let's play the final clip and then we're gonna move on to our, our, our fun segment. I know that this is a dark show today, but we have a fun segment, okay? We have fun on this show. I promise. We have fun. So last clip we wanted to play. I think it's really just, it's really worth highlighting here after Erica Kirk forgives her husband and I'm sorry, her husband's murderer and all this stuff. Donald Trump, the, the, the Messiah, the Messiah of the right wing Christian nationalist world, right? The man that has been chosen by God is Osiris, has an Elijah anointing, as Lance Walnut would say, a King David, right? This guy, he's found in the Bible. God has anointed Trump to save America. He embodies biblical godly principles. This man hops up at a memorial of Charlie Kirk full of Christian worship, Christian pastors, gospel messages. Remember, this is revival and says this a missionary with a noble spirit. So much great purpose. He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them.
- [81:07]
A
That's where I disagreed with Charlie.
- [81:10]
B
I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry, I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can talk to me and the whole group and maybe they can convince me that that's not right. But I can't stand my opponent, okay?
- [81:27]
A
He just gave permission to everybody there to hate his opponent. And he made it clear who his opponent is. He says throughout his speech, he brings up radical leftists, left wing lunatics. So there's no questioning who he hates. He hates half of the country and he just commissioned to every Christian watching this who is being told this is a Christian revival. To hate those who persecute you, to hate your enemies, to hate those that you don't like.
- [81:59]
B
And the crowd laughs. The same crowd worshiping a brown skinned immigrant man killed under the oppression of empire, who by the way, lived in modern day Palestine, the place that our taxpayer money is going to bomb children in, right? They worship that man with these, this pompous worship event full of smoke and haze and high production. And then their messiah in chief that white evangelicals voted for at a margin of 8 to 1, because 80% of white evangelicals voted for. This man says, I hate my enemies. And the crowd laughs and cheers. And somehow, April, you and I are false Christians for rejecting this version of Christian thinking, this perverted Antichrist gospel that isn't good news for the poor or for the widow, but is good news for the rich and powerful. Somehow we are on the wrong side of all of this. You have to be joking. You have to be kidding me. Charlie. Kirk and Turning Point had a professor's watch list that sent professors death threats. People would find them on these watch lists for preaching radical Marxism and they would get death threats.
- [83:13]
A
And so these people were not preaching radical Marxism.
- [83:16]
B
And even if they were, it's academia. They're allowed to write free speech. Right, guys? Right, Right. Right. Donald Trump Jr. We don't want to silence people for having speech. Okay, interesting. So we have to be so real here, so for real, that this is a defunct Antichrist movement that is built on power and control and hatred, not just of their own neighbors, but of their political enemies as well. Hard. Stop. And it's built on dehumanization, and it's built on lies. It's built on propaganda, and it's baptized in Christian iconography and Christian evangelical worship rituals. It is bankrupt. And I say this as a former white evangelical. White American evangelicalism is bankrupt. It has nothing to offer the world that is good. It is. It's moldy. Its foundation is rotten. It is a whitewashed tomb. But it wants to control everyone. And I think we have to be aware of what's going on. All these things are calculated. No doubt about it. There's a billionaire class funding this stuff. There are tons of organizations funding this. And our neighbors are really under threat. There's just no way, no other way to explain it. And we have to be aware.
- [84:27]
A
So I wanna be very clear. One thing that I found that actually can work for some people in this world is when you actually use the teachings of Jesus as a contrast to who they're supporting. This is from the book of Matthew. This is Matthew 25. Okay? These are the words of Jesus. Okay?
- [84:48]
B
Not Marx. Not Karl Marx. The words of Jesus.
- [84:50]
A
Right? Not Karl Marx. Jesus said. Hold on, I lost it. Where'd it go? Yeah. Okay. Depart from me, you are a curse into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. And they will answer, lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison and did not help you? Then Jesus said, truly, I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. And it is clear if Jesus were to come back to earth today, this MAGA movement, this Christian nationalist movement would deport Jesus, would send Jesus to a Salvadoran prison, would send him to Alligator Alcatraz, to a concentration camp, would take away his access to food, would throw him in prison like it is the exact opposite of everything Jesus taught. And these people dare use the name of Jesus for their political power. There is one group of people that Jesus consistently called out that he was angry with and that was religious hypocrites. And everyone that we just played, and I'll say maybe with the exception of Erica in this instant because she's grieving, but everyone that we just played would have been the people that Jesus called out as religious hypocrites.
- [86:32]
B
I mean, I. Look, if our understanding of heaven and hell is correct, Charlie Kirk is in conversation with a brown skinned Jesus right now. And I think Jesus is asking him, so what were you doing down there, bro? Like, I don't get it. Like, why did you hate people from the area that I came to earth in? Right? Because we believe as Christians that God was incarnate in the human form through Jesus. So what is God like? The Christian answer to that is Jesus. God is like Jesus. That's the physical manifestation of God on earth. And I just think that, like, Charlie is probably overwhelmed by a radical kind of love that makes him look at his own life and legacy and think to himself, like, I was so full of animosity towards my neighbors, people made in the image of God. And I didn't see what I see now. If, if this is all happening how we hope it does, right? I hope that Charlie is repentant and that Charlie is learning to love instead of hate. And I don't say that, you know, just willy nilly, like, oh, I'm just throwing out words. Like, Charlie espoused a doctrine that hated his neighbors, the ones who weren't like him, they were a threat to his, to his worldview, et cetera. So anyway, I don't know, I mean, we don't want to, you know, belabor the point. But I just think it was really important to highlight the funeral service and kind of give you guys the understanding of what we're actually looking at here and kind of what fuels some of this movement and how it functions. I think. I think that's really important.
- [87:59]
A
Yeah. So, okay, so for the people on Linked Square's substack, we have a segment we do every week called Weird Christian Shit.
- [88:07]
B
Oh, I was definitely the stinger.
- [88:08]
A
Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
- [88:09]
B
Okay.
- [88:10]
A
Weird Christian.
- [88:15]
B
Nice.
- [88:16]
A
A little bit of fun every week. Yeah. We bring a video that's usually not political. It's just weird. There's a lot of weird stuff that happens in evangelicalism as two people who come from that world. So this week, if you've been living under a rock, you might have missed it, but the Rapture was a huge talking point. A lot of people believe that Jesus was coming back this week to Rapture Christians, which is different from the second coming. The Rapture is this belief that came up from a guy named John Nelson Darby. We're not going to go into it, but basically it's a belief that a trumpet's going to sound and all the current Christians are going to get sucked up into the sky to go to heaven without dying and escape all human suffering that is about to come with the Great Tribulation and the Antichrist and all of that. But a lot of people genuinely believe this. We talked about it. Was it last week or two weeks ago that there's a guy named Brother Joshua who said he received a vision that Jesus told him he was going to come back on September 23rd or September 24th here today, September 25th, we're all still here, which is really.
- [89:16]
B
Can I just say, it's tragic. I wish that MAGA got Raptured. Think about. Think about all the things that we can get done. We can get affordable health care done. Gun control could be done. We have a quality education, paid family leave. I mean, there's just so many things that we could get done immediately. So I was praying for it. I was. I was back in my Awana days. For those of you who know what that is, I was repludging my purity by pulling out my purity ring, whatever it took to get that Rapture going, but it didn't work.
- [89:41]
A
So I know sometimes I would pray God would delay the Rapture so that I could have sex on my wedding night.
- [89:46]
B
Story of my life. April. From, like, age, like 13 when I got married, it's like, please just don't come back.
- [89:51]
A
But Then feel really guilty for praying that I was like, oh, my fleshly desires are more important than God's plan. Forgive me, Lord. Anyway, a lot of. A lot of Christians, like, it was all over TikTok. If you're on TikTok, even, like, the Guardian even released an article about it that I was interviewed for.
- [90:11]
B
Humble brag.
- [90:13]
A
Humble brag. Okay, so there's a lot of videos. We narrowed it down to this one. This lady, she was telling people how she was prepping her house for the Rapture, so she bought a bunch of Bibles for those that are listening on podcasts later. You can't see it, so we'll just. We'll play this. This is one of.
- [90:29]
B
This is real, right? This is real.
- [90:30]
A
This is real. She's not satire. For real. Okay, yeah.
- [90:33]
B
Okay, here we go. Let it play.
- [90:36]
A
Hey, guys. All right. What did I do today to prepare my home for the people that are left behind? Let me show you. I got these at the Dollar Tree. I just wrote these on here, like, little notes. I also bookmarked some scriptures. There's the scriptures for you. And I wrote this in every single one of the books. So hopefully these books end up in the hands of people who will need them. All right, see you tomorrow. Can you go back? Can we pause on her note? Yeah, I want to read it.
- [91:22]
B
We're going to have to. We have to pause. Which one? What? Okay. Can you read that?
- [91:27]
A
Well, I don't know. Do you want to read that one or the one on the front?
- [91:29]
B
Oh, sorry. There's just so many notes to read. There's a lot. Let me see if I can find it like that.
- [91:36]
A
I can't read it. It's kind of blurry on my end.
- [91:39]
B
Yeah, too bad, because you're a much better reader than I am. Jesus loves you. It's not too late. Take this Bible. Find other believers that are left behind. Do not take the mark in hand or forehead. So she's referring to the mark of the beast.
- [91:55]
A
Yes.
- [91:56]
B
Yeah, yeah. Shara says in a super chat, wasn't there a series called Left behind about this? Oh, we're all triggered. Was there ever. Was there ever. Was there ever? I mean, that's a. We, we, we. Look, if you want to know about the Rapture, go to our YouTube channel or podcast. We did. We've done deep dives on that on that particular event, but, yes, it's absolutely a thing. And then here's the inside of the note. To whoever finds the Bible, Jesus is still calling you even now. Pray this to be saved. Lord Jesus, I confess I'm a sinner. I believe you died for my sins and rose again. I trust you as my Savior. Forgive me. Come into my heart and guide me. Amen. Believe this in your heart and you will be saved. Romans 10, 9, hold fast, seek God, stay safe and find hope in these pages.
- [92:41]
A
Heart.
- [92:41]
B
Melissa, look, this is what we call cheap salvation. This is cheap grace, okay? Becoming a follower of Jesus is not just praying some magic words and boom, automatically, supernaturally, you're going to go to heaven. It's about radical allegiance to the way of Jesus. That's what it means to be a Christ follower. And this kind of theology is, I'm just going to be honest, is absolute horseshit. Like it's made up, it's recent, it is not historic, it is white evangelical. Pray this prayer, sign this card so we can brag about how many souls we save for the kingdom, but there's nothing behind it. D.J. bonhoeffer calls this cheap grace. That's what this is. It is absolutely a mockery of true Christian conversion. Hard stop.
- [93:20]
A
Yeah. I do want to point out though that this is a well intentioned thing to do, that she is at least thinking of the people that are left behind. And in this belief, people who are left behind are not Christians. But they have the option to get saved and start the underground church during the Great Tribulation. They just have to refuse the mark of the beast. Because if you get the mark of the beast, you are. Your soul is forever, then damned to hell when you die. Which you have to take the mark of the beast in order to sell or buy food. And there's this whole narrative that if you. That they go and hunt people who have not taken the mark of the beast and kill them with the guillotine.
- [93:55]
B
Yes. And I just want to say to all of the non evangelicals out there, it's bad theology, okay? The Bible doesn't teach this. The guy who made this up literally fell off a horse and his head and then created this theology. John Nelson Darby, look it up. It is brand new theology. It's not historic. So this whole reading of Revelation in these verses, it's a complete bastardization of what is actually going on in the narrative of the Scriptures. For a different discussion. But wow, April, we did it.
- [94:20]
A
We did it.
- [94:21]
B
Wow.
- [94:21]
A
Oh, we have another super chat.
- [94:23]
B
Okay, we'll see that and then we'll wrap it up.
- [94:25]
A
Says Lemon character moving his head from left to right with his mouth wide open and red hearts in his eyes.
- [94:31]
B
Oh, I think it's like an emoji that didn't play. That's my guess is that. Yeah, I was like, who are we talking about here? Who's loving character?
- [94:39]
A
I was like living character. I don't know what that is, but I'm on a live. So we're gonna be cool about it.
- [94:44]
B
Friends, thank you so much. That's funny. Thank you so much for being here. To everyone who's watching on Lincoln Square, thank you so much for tuning in. Almost 860 people are watching on Lincoln Square. Almost 500 on YouTube. That's by far our biggest show ever. We do this every Thursday, 12 o' clock Eastern. You can catch the stream live on either YouTube or on Lincoln Square substack. This will be saved so you can reference it later on. I just can't thank you enough. We love doing this work. The New Evangelicals is the nonprofit that makes all this possible. If you want to support the show, you can do super chats. You can donate to the organization. If you want to support us as individuals. Both of us are on substack. I keep all of my content on substack completely paywall free. But paid subscribers do make this work possible as we write about Christian nationalism, write about more of the nuances of what's going on. So we are totally committed to doing this work for as long as we're able to financially. And your support means the world. So thanks for being here. It was a really great show. A lot of fun. We'll be doing this again.
- [95:40]
A
This one did go longer than usual. We try to keep it around an hour 15. But today was a long show and we didn't even get to everything. I will say this coming Tuesday, we're releasing an episode where we're going to give some examples of overt versus covert Christian nationalism that you can spot in the wild. So if you want to subscribe to our YouTube channel, it'll be there and it'll be on podcast as well.
- [96:03]
B
Awesome. You can follow me at. Tim Whitaker speaks on all socials. And that's at aprilajoy. On your socials. I think that's all we got. We all good, April?
- [96:11]
A
Yeah, I think so. Congrats for making it through another rapture.
- [96:15]
B
I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [96:17]
A
I'm April. Ajoy. See ya, Sam.