← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
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B
Hello everyone, I am Tim Whitaker.
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A
I am April Ajoy.
- [00:27]
B
Welcome back to the Tim and April Show. We have quite the episode in store for you by the way. If you're new to the channel, welcome in. Please make sure to subscribe. Give this video a like if you're listening on podcast. Hello. Thank you so much. Make sure to give this episode a rating and a review. April, good to see you as always. How are you doing?
- [00:44]
A
You know, I'm doing great. We are recording this on a Tuesday. We are, we are recording this actually on the Tuesday that the rapture is supposed to be happening. And so far, clear skies, still here, still here. No sounds of trumpets.
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B
I do want to say though, I am a little bit bummed that MAGA was not raptured. I. I really was hoping, you know, if, if. Let's just say all the Christian nationalists got raptured, we'd get affordable health care done. We'd get gun control done. A, a quality education, paid family leave, livable wages. I mean, what a rapture, really. It might not be bad to be left behind. I'm just saying it might not be too bad.
- [01:27]
A
I've always, like, thought about first, for the record, I do not believe in the rapture like I once did anymore. Yeah, right. Anymore. But I do think, like, just based on the Bible, that if a rapture were to occur, I don't think mag is going up. I don't, I don't know that they're gonna make it. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like the radical leftists, the children, the marginalized, the immigrants, those are the ones that might, you know, like the biggest plot twist. Like I feel like I would enjoy just seeing MAGA being down on earth and watching all the people they condemned to hell get sucked up.
- [02:07]
B
But that would be a movie I'd watch. That's a TV show plot twist, right? Like this real devout Christian nationalist, like praying to God, thanking him that he's not like those other terrible woke people who just hate America and then plot twist. They're the ones left behind and they got to figure it out. I would watch that episode. I would, I would watch that.
- [02:29]
A
It's like that same logic. I don't know if you ever were told this whenever I was a single Christian and all the things like, you know, you just have to not want it because if you want it too much, God won't give it to you because it's become an idol and God will give it to you once you're content with, like, not wanting it. So it's like all the people that don't care about the rapture, God's like, yeah, I'll take you.
- [02:48]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I did try that logic. I was like, okay, just don't want sex and I'll get sex one day. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I couldn't stop. So I was a teenager. It was what it is. So anyway, listen, we have a today's episode. What we want to do is we know that there's a lot going on in culture. There's. The news cycle is nonstop. In fact, April and I always talk about how it's difficult to do an episode a week in advance because by the time the episode comes out, so much has happened. Today. We want to kind of give you all. I think we have a lot of new followers and listeners and a lot of you might not fully understand, like either a how to spot Christian nationalism or what even Christian nationalism is. So on this episode, we want to give you a kind of a primer of first off, what is Christian nationalism? Is it just. It's just. Is it just some made up term that, that people invented to just smear conservatives? Is there more going on there? And then we're gonna pull up three different clips and give you three different degrees of Christian nationalism, from like, very clear, I'm openly a Christian nationalist to the more subtle approaches that April and I would argue kind of radicalizes people, but very subvertly. And that's our goal today on this episode.
- [04:05]
A
Yeah. Cause you know, a lot more people are talking about Christian nationalism in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination. We just saw that memorial. And so if you watched our most. Our last live this past Thursday, we talked a lot about the Christian nationalism that was on display there. But yeah, so we just wanted to get back to the basics of what is it. If you are right wing or maga. There's this big push to say that Christian nationalism is a made up smear campaign by the left, that it doesn't actually exist, that what they call Christian nationalism is just Christianity. And so we want to tell you how that's not true and just give some basic definitions. But I just realized this is going to drop September 30th, which is the day that my paperback copy of my book releases. So I feel like you said I'm not good at promoting myself, but my book, Star Spangled Jesus, this is a hardcover. The paperback comes out today. So you can buy it. There's a little update in there from that. But let me give you some definitions of Christian nationalism. This is actually from a 90 minute presentation that I gave on Christian nationalism. This was before the election when we all had a little more hope.
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B
Remember those days?
- [05:21]
A
Yeah. So I first want to give out that. That there's no one definition of Christian nationalism because it can be a little different. And depending on who you are, it is different. There's varying degrees of Christian nationalism. You can perpetuate Christian nationalism when. Without subscribing to all of it. And there's like, there's more extreme people in it, there's less extreme it. So we're going to get into all that. But. So at a very basic level, Christian nationalism is a conflation of one's faith with a political ideology. But that's. I think that's too simple for what. What's happening in America.
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B
Yeah.
- [06:01]
A
So the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty defined Christian nationalism as this. It is the belief that America, that the American nation is defined by Christianity and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. So I think that's a very good definition. Here's a more fleshed out definition that I gave based on a bunch of people's definitions of Christian nationalism and my own experience being a Christian nationalism. So it is the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation, that God supernaturally blessed America, and that Christians should do whatever it takes to take the country back for God so that he will continue to bless us. It is the belief. The belief works to implement policy and laws that support this worldview only. Only being the. The key word. It is the elevation of one biblical interpretation to the detriment of all other beliefs. And an example of the policies that. That we see this happening in are all the anti LGBTQ laws, all the war on trans people book bans. You know, you see this war on quote, unquote, woke ideology and history, abortion and IVF bans, you know, the suppressing of access to birth control. And then Project 2025 is, is a great Christian nationalist playbook that is unfortunately happening before our eyes.
- [07:34]
B
I would also. Yeah, I think that that's a really good definition. I would. The only thing I would add is that. And you kind of explain this in the more fleshed out version, but it's obviously a very white Christian conservative perspective is what we're talking about here. It's not just Christianity. It's a very specific, you know, stream of it, and it is militant and it is here to take over. I think we've seen a lot of examples of Trump taking more and more power as, as a, as a government. Right. We've seen the Trump administration say they're going to start targeting left wing organizations in the wake of Tyler Kirk's assassination. Even though as of this recording, the government has said there's no link found between the shooters, you know, ideology and any kind of far left or left wing group. But that doesn't matter because this is really about taking power and control in government and in culture. And there's a idea called the Seven Mountain Mandate that kind of flushes this out. So. Yeah, I think though, that your definition is really succinct and really helpful for how we look at the political movement that's happening right now and what their act, what their actual motivation is underneath of it. Right. They're really good at dressing up what they're doing with like, propaganda and just things that are not true and making it seem like, hey, we're just, hey, look, no, this isn't, it's not what you think it is. But underneath of it, this is absolutely what animates it.
- [08:50]
A
Yeah. And, and even another aspect of this too. Like, you know, I feel like if you're a lay, a layperson, a layperson wouldn't even understand the term layperson. It's such a Christianese term. But like, to someone who didn't grow up in this world or didn't grow up religious at all, you might be asking why? Like what, what's the point? Like, why do we need to make the Christian. Why do, why does America need to be a Christian nation? It's separation of church and state. These people can just live their lives and their beliefs how they want. They're not being persecuted, blah, blah. So one, they believe they are being persecuted and then what, what just happened to Charlie Kirk is just, they've, they have equated that to being. He was killed because he's a Christian. So, so that's that. But also when you're in this world, you believe that God is good and that God has everything under control. So when bad things happen, like 911 or Hurricane Katrina or, you know, when any, any tragedy, that, that's just terrible that you can't fathom a good God allowing to happen, you have to then say, oh, God allowed that to happen because he saw the amount of sin that we had let into this country because we, we allowed gay marriage and we allowed abortion and we allowed all these quote unquote sinners. Into our country. And so God lifted his veil of protection over our nation and allowed these terrible things to happen. And so in order to get back to God's good graces, we need to get rid of all the bad sinners. And if they're not going to do it on their own, because we asked nicely, now we're going to outlaw all of these things. So that's kind of, that's why, that's the, why they, they feel the need to do it. There's also some like, mixed in ideas of, you know, wanting to save souls and keeping people from sinning so that they're more likely to accept Jesus and go to heaven. And, you know, if you have a Christian nation, you're more likely to spread the gospel and blah, blah, blah. But really it's just a, it's a, a quest for power at the end of the day.
- [11:02]
B
Look, while we're here, while you were talking about that, it reminded me of this very iconic clip of Jerry Falwell, the founder of the Moral majority, talking about 9 11. I think this is a really good example of how Christian nationalists understand the world around them and who they blame for tragedy. So this is a real thing that he really said two days after 911 happened. Check this out.
- [11:27]
C
What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if in fact, if in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. Oh yeah, and I know I'll hear from them for this. But throwing God or successful help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, that the aclu, people for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America, I point the thing in their face and say, you helped this happen.
- [12:37]
B
So I think it's just worth pointing out that the aclu, all those groups fight for civil rights. So, so, so there's a lot of layers to his statement, but it does really, it does say very succinctly, kind of all the culture war enemies of the Christian nationalist right. Right. You know, it's the feminists for giving women more rights and autonomy. It's the abortionist for killing 40 million children, in Jerry Falwell's words. It's the gays and the lesbians for destroying the sanctity of marriage. It's. It's the ACLU and other civil rights groups. Right. That are opposing our way of life. And so the answer to tragedy is that, well, God is judging the nation for allowing those things to happen. And even though they wouldn't say things with the same exact language, the sentiment is the exact same. Whenever a real tragedy happens, whether it's hurricanes. Right. Or storms or other things, you always hear people start to hint at, well, we're under God's judgment for falling away from how God orchestrated our nation to be. That's all a code. It's all a dog whistle echoing back to all these culture war issues that they really think are demonic at its core.
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A
Yeah. I mean, John Hagee blamed Hurricane Katrina on the fact that New Orleans had recently held a pride parade.
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B
Right, exactly.
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A
So. So, like, this is nothing new. Like, what we're seeing happening today is not new. It's been happening for decades, really. I think the mo. The modern idea of Christian nationalism really kind of started in the 50s with Billy Graham. Even though Billy Graham later came out to condemn the marriage of the GOP and evangelicals, he initially got. Was very close to Dwight Eisenhower. They're the reason that Under God was added into the. The. The Pledge of Allegiance, like, until the 1950s, under God I pledge, you know, one nation under God, Under God was not in the pledge that was added in the 50s. And in God we Trust was not our nation's national motto also until the 50s.
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B
And that was not our currency either.
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A
Right? It was on some currency, but it wasn't on all of it until the 50s. Like, that was when they're like. Yes, but that just shows that, like. Like when I was growing up, I just believed that, you know, that probably George Washington had a in God we Trust bumper sticker on his horse, you know?
- [15:01]
B
Totally. Yeah. He. He just branded his horse with that, you know? Yeah. I don't know, but you're exactly right. You're exactly right.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah. So this is a relatively new thing. And in the 50s, it was during the Cold War, it was specifically to fight, quote, unquote, godless commun. Communism. So they were. The idea that the opposite of communism was to be Christian. So that's when they started really promoting God as this. This big fight, which is. Which is also just so wild to me to see how far we've come, because the, The. The Christian nationalists back then were very anti Russia.
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B
Yep.
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A
And just to see that is just a wild, you know, look.
- [15:42]
B
The. The heartbeat of Christian nationalism is always gonna be power and control. Right. However, they're able to utilize cultural moments for more power and more control they're gonna do. I think what makes our current moment new is not the motivation or the ideology behind it, but it's the fact that they have someone in the White House who has given them everything that they want and more. Right. The fact that, like Paula White, who is a prosperity gospel teacher who has major ties to the new episodic Reformation, a very Christian nationalist charismatic sect. The fact that she has an office in the. In the White House is a big deal. The fact that. That the Trump administration is courting evangelical pastors to come and worship at the White House and pray at the White House, the fact that so many of those people are embedded in the administration. Pete Hegseth. Right. Who's discipled by Doug Wilson, who is a blatant Christian nationalist. I think that's what makes today different than. Than the past. Right. I mean, even Reagan, as conservative as he was, didn't really embrace the kind of religious extremism that we're seeing now. And so what we're really witnessing is this is the future. This is the world that Christian nationalists want us to live under. Why do you think we are throwing people in concentration camps? Even people who have committed no crimes or who are. Who are in some cases even here legally. Right. Well, there's Christian nationalism. They are. It's incredibly xenophobic in nature. So all of these major breaking news stories that we're seeing usually are always rooted back to some kind of Christian nationalist idea or Agenda or Project 2025, which is kind of like the Christian nationalist playbook and manual. And that's why we feel the need to talk about this, because, frankly, a lot of people in media either don't know what's going on on the theological level, or they're just not talking about it. And April and I argue this is kind of key to what's happening right now. If you don't understand this, you're never going to fully be able to understand the Trump administration and why it's doing what it's doing.
- [17:39]
A
Absolutely. And before we get to our clips, I do want to point out to you that Christian Nationalism did not start in the 50s. I think that's kind of what started the modern version of Christian nationalism that we see today. But it's been going on since the beginning of this nation. I would argue, especially during the Civil War and slavery, the amount of Christians that use the Bible to justify owning people. And then you had Jim Crow and just there's a. There's a lot of racism beat in, built into Christian nationalism. Especially, like, if you look back, like, the Ku Klux Klan was an overtly Christian nationalist organization. Like, you had to be a white Protestant to be in the kkk.
- [18:17]
B
Absolutely.
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A
And that is something that is not really talked about a lot, like how Christian the KKK was.
- [18:22]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, the reality is you and I are Christians. And one thing we've learned is that Christianity, for a very long time, since really Constantine, has had a streak of militant, you know, violent imperialism. I mean, there's been movements all throughout our tradition that we reject, but they're still in the Christian house. And Christian nationalism in America is just participating in that stream of thinking. This idea that God has given us this land or this nation to conquer. I mean, this. You know, you can look at the doctrine of discovery. There's a whole world here that we can't get into. But this is the bottom line is this. What you're seeing today is not happening in a vacuum. It's not happening because someone just made it up the other day. It's not even happening because of Trump. Okay. It's always been underneath the surface. It's always been moving. It's always been there in Christian thinking. Now there is a leaf blower fanning the flames of this, and that's what we're witnessing today. I just think that's really important to mention.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah. Okay. So the first two clips we want to show you are examples of overt Christian nationalists. Like, these are people that would say they are Christian nationalists. So the first one is he's a pastor named Joel Webbin. We have played clips from him before, I would say, of the Christian nationalist, you know, spectrum, he's one of the more extreme ones. Like, he's not the most extreme, unfortunately, but he's still one of the more extreme ones. So.
- [19:49]
B
And he says the quiet parts out loud. Right. Sometimes people will dog whistle. Not Joel. He's just going to come out and say it. So here's a good example. This is overt Christian nationalist ideology on display. Here we go.
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D
To crush your. What does it look like to win? It's crushing your enemies. Rewarding your friends. What does it look like to crush your enemies? It depends on the category. It depends on your vocation. So when we say crush your enemies, I'm not saying that Christians in the middle of the night should dress up like Batman and be vigilantes and run around and kill their enemies. No one is saying that. You're not saying that. I'm not saying that. We're not saying that. What we're saying is you do it in all the capacities, staying in the various lanes that the Lord has assigned to us. So it means culturally. What does it mean culturally to crush your enemies? It means making leftist thought a complete pariah to where someone is ashamed, they are ashamed to publicly utter the views that the Lord hates, that God hates, like murdering babies and chopping off the genitals of children. Like leftists should be ashamed. And anyone who has said those things publicly in any serious position of power and media and all the. Absolutely, they should be crushed. Meaning what? That you privately, as a vigilante, should kill them? No, it means they lose their job, it means they lose their livelihood, they lose stock, they, they lose credibility. It means all those things. And if you are a civil magistrate and you have leverage and you have the role and the power to legislate legislating righteous laws, and so again, that's not vigilante, but that's now through the mechanism of the state legislating righteous laws that would have righteous consequences. As a private citizen, it means doing it culturally. It means utilizing social media. If you're a private citizen who owns a business, it means hiring the faithful, hard working Christians and in your church and not hiring leftists who hate you and who are going to demean your. That's what we're talking economically, we're talking socially, culturally, politically, in all these ways that are perfectly conducive with biblical standards. None of this is taking vengeance, an unrighteous, wicked vengeance, which ultimately that belongs to the Lord. He will get eternal vengeance by casting people into hell, those who hate him. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about all the mechanisms that are at our disposal and that are righteous to use. And in those ways, that's what we mean by crushing enemies and rewarding friends. This is perfectly conducive with Christian thought.
- [22:21]
E
And I mean the kind of legal process thing I think is important. Right. You know, when people run around crushing their enemies literally through vigilantism, that does not lead to social comity, but it is entirely appropriate at some future point for the right to set up judicial tribunals to try people for crimes that took place in the past. You don't want to go whole hog and try millions of people. But this is basically. It would be similar to something like was done after World War II with the denazification program, where you basically examine the behavior of people in the past. You find particular malefactors and you've sentenced them to jail for some period of time or picking sugar beets in Saskatchewan, as I like to say. But that's a process of justice. I mean, the, the punishment of leftists is fundamentally a process of justice, not a process of political.
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D
You know, frequently it's not revenge, it's justice. What does it look.
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B
Well, it's not revenge, it's justice. I don't know. It sounds like a lot of revenge to me. We're going to go in the past and find people that we don't like and put them on, on, on, on on trial by tribunals that we set up because we're not vengeful people. We just want justice.
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A
And these are the people that want free, that are champions of free speech.
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B
Now, come on, give me a break.
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A
It also is just like the cognitive dissonance that you have to have to both say, like, we're not vengeful.
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B
Right.
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A
We just want justice, but we're going to take away your job, we're going to make sure you don't have any money. We're going to throw you in jail.
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B
And do all these things you out.
- [23:55]
A
Of culture just for having certain beliefs and for saying certain things that we think are evil.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah. And we should be so clear. Abortion is not murdering babies and no children are getting their genitals chopped off. We have to say that because the more you tolerate that kind of narrative, the more it becomes acceptable. Both of those things are not factually true. That's not what's happening. Right. The only way that you get to how they think about things is if you inhale the propaganda that this space espouses. I mean, we've looked up the data. I don't think there are any children in America who have had anything like that happen to them, period. In fact, if people want real data, I think the last number I saw was there were 900, I think teenagers in America between 2018 and like 2023 that got puberty blockers. 900. That's it.
- [24:46]
A
I know. It's one in 1,000 percentage.
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B
Right. It's. And it's not, it's not what they call genital mutilation. That's not what's happening here. Okay. It's totally different. And by the way, Joel, puberty blockers have been around for a very long time for people, um, it's nothing new. But yeah, I mean, this is, this is a good example of what we're talking about. Right. If they get the power that they want, they get the control that, that they want, they absolutely will put what they call leftist, which by the way, a very broad term, completely undefinable. It's only defined in their worldview. So if they like what you said, you're a leftist, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, like the word woke up. Right. What is woke? There's no definition, there's no working definition that they're operating from. It's a catch all for anything. They don't like, oh, you said it's beautiful outside and you like that the sun is shining and that you want to keep the planet healthy. You must be woke. Oh, you said this about Trump, that maybe you're concerned about his rhetoric. You must be woke. It's a catch all term. Same thing with this term leftist. It's a catch all term.
- [25:46]
A
Yeah, well, and I think too he was talking about, he, he mentions two things, right. He mentioned abortion and he mentions trans children. Neither of which are overtly condemned in the Bible.
- [26:04]
B
Yep.
- [26:04]
A
And in fact on the abortion, like trans issues are not mentioned at all in the Bible. The, what they use is the creation story. God created male and female. But even like the Jewish text, because that, that was their text first, let's be clear.
- [26:19]
B
Yeah.
- [26:19]
A
In the Hebrew Bible they interpret that to mean it was, it's a spectrum because God created night and day also. But sunsets and sunrises exist. So it's, it's pointing to two, two sides of a spectrum. Also the fact that intersex people exist and they are, the intersex people that are born with both parts to some degree are the exact same percentage as natural born redheads in the world. So if you've seen a redhead, you've seen an intersex person. So like they're, they're not going to show.
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B
You see the intersex person, right.
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A
And like that immediately debunks the idea that God only creates male and female. Like you just, you can't just ignore that 1 to 2% of the world's population. You can't just act like they don't exist, because they do. But then on the abortion topic, there's that, that scripture in Exodus where It says if you harm a pregnant woman and the baby dies, you have to be. You're fined. But if the woman dies, then it's eye for an eye and it's capital punishment, which has always been interpreted to mean that the woman's life has more value than the fetus. And if you are Jewish, you have a religious duty that if a woman's life is in danger, she must abort her baby to save her own life. Like that. That is. That is how Jewish people read that text.
- [27:40]
B
Right?
- [27:40]
A
So. But here's the thing. There is room to debate the morality of abortion from a biblical standpoint. But that's the thing. It's a debate. It's not clear. Like. Like they. Like they act like it is.
- [27:53]
B
No.
- [27:54]
A
So anyway.
- [27:55]
B
Yeah. 100.
- [28:01]
F
Hey, everyone. This is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism, and yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and. And we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and. And to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors together. I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.
- [29:12]
G
Hey there. My name is Christian from the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area, and I serve on the New Evangelicals board as one of the people who helps foster a community through zoom conversations, other online events outside of Facebook. And I'm super proud to be a donor and a supporter and a participant in the important conversations we're having as it feels like our faith in our country is being hijacked to become, well, in my opinion, less and less Christian, less and less like Jesus. So I love our T and E community. I also support Project Amplify because I Love seeing. I love hearing other smart, helpful, hopeful, educated voices being elevated to show that there's a better way forward for those who want to follow the life changing teachings of Jesus. I'm proud of the consistently kind, humanizing, respectful, and yet red flag raising content that TAE produces.
- [30:22]
B
So. So that is a clear cut case of just overt Christian nationalism. I mean, that, that ultimately is what many Christian nationalists, even the ones who aren't as loud as Joel, would tolerate in this society. Meaning if Joel got the power he wanted and started, you know, putting queer people or leftists on trial, you're not going to hear, I would argue, a huge outcry from the rank and file Christian nationalist. Right. You're just not. Because ultimately they're kind of cool with it because they hear an avalanche of propaganda all day through right wing media pundits that the left is destroying America, that the left is evil, that the left is chopping off the genitals of children, they're killing babies. Right. They hate America, they hate God. So that kind of animosity is baked into the pie. But Joel is the one saying the quiet part out loud. That's what's important here.
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A
Yeah, and I want to point out too, the left in America is like moderate compared to leftists of the world. Like, we don't have like a true left on that.
- [31:21]
B
Oh, it's ridiculous. The left in America is like, we want affordable health care. And the right's like, wow, you Marxist. It's like, dude, even in the uk, the right wing wants to keep their affordable health care. Like, like that. That's not really a debate in most countries that have it, you know, Right.
- [31:36]
A
They're so silly far right that they look at someone who's in the middle and they're like, you're a communist.
- [31:42]
B
Like, you want to tax billionaires. Are you insane? Oh boy. All right, the next person we're going to get to is Lance Wall. Now, now, Lance Wall. Now look, I mean, I would say he is, in a vote, an overt Christian nationalist. He just isn't as blunt as someone like Joel. This is someone who is the architect of the Seven Mountain Mandate. April and I have covered this on many other episodes, both on podcasts and YouTube. I've written subsequent on it. April has a whole book that covers this kind of stuff, Star Spangled Jesus. So we're not going to go into the details on this episode of the Seven Mountain Mandate, except to say that it is an ideology that teaches conservative Christians like Lance and his Christian nationalist crew have a Spiritual obligation to take over the seven mountains of culture to essentially shape the nation and turn it for God. That. That's the general idea.
- [32:32]
A
It's also like. Also known as, like, dominion theology, where Christians have to have dominion over the world.
- [32:38]
B
Right. Lance is a prolific speaker. He tours the world. He speak. He spoke at Turning Point America Fest last year in December. I mean, he is very prolific, and he's been around for a long time. He comes out of what's called the new Apostolic Reformation movement. It's a sect out of charismatic theology. Whole different discussion on that. We'll get into it in the future, but we've also covered it in the past. This is Lance. What's up?
- [33:00]
A
Yeah, I was just gonna say this clip was before the election.
- [33:04]
B
Okay, so this. This is 2024. Then here we go.
- [33:08]
H
And what you're seeing now is a real Jezebel. You're gonna see a lot of people saying that. It doesn't. You know, it's like. It's like Pentecostal 101. When you've got somebody operating in manipulation, intimidation, and domination, especially when it's in a female role trying to emasculate a man who is standing up for truth, you're dealing with the Jezebel spirit. So with Kamala, you have a Jezebel spirit, a characteristic in the Bible that is the personification of intimidation, seduction, domination, and manipulation. Four strains. What was accomplished was she can look presidential, and that's. We'll go to this later. That's the seduction of what I would say is witchcraft. That's the manipulation of imagery that creates an impression contrary to the truth, but it seduces you into seeing it. So that's. So that spirit, that occult spirit, I believe is operating honor and through her, similar to with Obama, that there's a kind of an angel of light charisma. You can see it at the dnc. And so when you're up against that, the good news is, if we're going to go full tilt Pentecostal, Jezebel may be the Spirit you're up against, but. But then Trump has like an Elijah mantle on him, probably from the intercession of a million Christians. Fortunately, if you got a Jezebel, you have an Elijah. So we have to double down in intercessory prayer in the warfare mode of Pentecostals. We also have to come together in higher unity. I'm distressed by the division that exists in the church. All fault lines are showing up now. Scattered scandals and incrimination. We need to close ranks and actually begin to get in a superlative agreement over what we believe. We're hearing God say he wants to manifest because this election's coming five days after Halloween, another high holy day for all the Satanist crazy people. So we've got to literally. I'm in a place of fasting and prayer now because I'm saying we've got to lean into this thing because the Elijah mantle can break the spell of witchcraft off America. God can tear the veil, and unless that veil is torn, we have a lot working against us.
- [35:28]
A
Whoo. So I'm pretty sure he was. That this was after the debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. What you have here is some veiled misogyny and racism, where he admits that both Kamala Harris and Barack Obama make sense. They're good talkers, they're good speakers. They can get you to like them.
- [35:56]
B
Right.
- [35:57]
A
And instead of him saying that's because they're good at their jobs or they know what they're saying, he has to say it's because of the demonic forces and the witchcraft working within them.
- [36:09]
B
So this is really important for the audience to understand. For Lance Wall now and his charismatic theology, they really believe that they are in a constant spiritual war against the forces of good and evil, which is why you hear this talk about demonic and the Jezebel spirit versus the Elijah mantle. This is all painting the picture of whose side are you on? Are you on the side of God or on the side of Satan? So for Lance, all of this, his job is to eventually is to essentially convince his audience that Trump and the Maga movement are the ones that are sanctioned by God and that are called by God to save America from the deep evil demonic forces of. Of the left and of secularism, et cetera. Right. And by the way, this is not a grift for Lance. Like, he really believes this. In fact, in the new Apostolic Reformation, they believe that they have the ability and power to pray at specific physical locations around the world that have unique spiritual strongholds over them. And that if they pray and they agree, which you heard them talk a lot about agreement and, you know, and that kind of stuff, if they agree in the spiritual world and they intercede on behalf of America or whatever the location is, God will answer their prayer. They actually. And this is Matthew Taylor's book, the Violent Ticket by Force, who talks about this, they actually believe that they have the ability to have God move on their behalf if enough of them pray and intercede for victory. That's why they're so big on intercessory prayer and on getting people to mobilize by the masses. Right. To do things. This is why many of them were praying on January 6th. Many of them were actually on the Capitol grounds. So what you just heard was kind of a very classic expression of how they're gonna paint their opponents versus their, you know, their. Their allies. And notice too, how upside down this is because Trump is the one who lies. Right? Trump is the one who consistently does not tell the truth. And yet Lance uses the spiritual language and the Bible to paint him as someone that God has chosen to tell the truth. But Harris is seducing people. Notice also that sexual overtone used for Harris. Right. She's seducing people to think that she's qualified, even though she actually is quite qualified. She's actually quite brilliant in a lot of ways.
- [38:31]
A
More often than Donald Trump.
- [38:32]
B
Yeah. And tells the truth much more often than Donald Trump. Right. But the spiritual language, the way that Lance is able to use the Bible, which again, many evangelicals have a very high respect for, they see the Bible as the final authority on truth and on all matters of Christian living. If Lance can convince his audience that the Bible justifies their political position, it makes it unmovable, even in the face of truth. That's why, friends, when you try and talk to maybe your MAGA neighbor or your family member, either over text message or in person, and you give them data, that's why it bounces off of them, because they're not looking for data, they're looking for narrative. Right? These are narrative driven ideas, not data driven ones. So I'm not saying you're wasting your time, but. But you're not gonna change their mind by giving them stats or by proving that Trump told a lie, because in their mind, he's chosen by God. So whatever you tell me, you must be on the side of the enemy now because you're telling me the lies about Trump. That's how that worldview works.
- [39:29]
A
Right? Because even if what they are taught to not believe what they see, if what they see goes against what they've been taught 100%. Because, like, notice too, he even admits, like, oh, yeah, Kamala is a good speaker. And, and, and a lot of people are liking her. And he can't say it's because she's saying things that make sense, it's. No, it's because she's seducing you because she has a Jezebel spirit. And so how that's Christian nationalism, if you can't tell is that you're Conflating actual politicians with characters from the Bible that are good or bad. And you're labeling the people that you don't like as bad characters from the Bible and labeling people that you do, like Donald Trump, who has the mantle of Elijah.
- [40:14]
B
Right. It's ridiculous.
- [40:15]
A
It's just like the serial adulterer. Sorry, we don't. We've talked about that.
- [40:19]
B
And just to be clear, that is a very uniquely Christian nationalist thing. You're not going to find progressive Christians, even moderate Christians, who are taking Bible characters and comparing political figures to those people. There was no one in my orbit who was like, you know, Joe Biden's like a King David. He's a King David. Joe Biden is our Moses, and Harris is like our Esther. Like, no one in our world did that because we don't conflate the two. Because guess what? We don't think that our leaders are anointed by God or are perfect or are somehow, you know, have a divine mandate to save America. Our worldview is completely different, which is probably why we're way more likely to critique our own leaders. I mean, you and I critique Biden often for the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians. Right. You're not going to see that happen with Trump. If you look at the news today, for example, I'm not sure if you know, this April, but you know, Alligator Alcatraz, that whole situation. Well, you know that they can't find, like, two thirds of the immigrants that were there. They're. They're just gone. They are gone. We can't. The government won't tell us where they are. They just. They just disappear. All I know is that they just disappeared. Like, we don't know where they are or where they came from. You're never going to see the right hold Trump accountable for that for two reasons. Number one, because they see immigrants as less than human. And number two, they're never going to condemn their dear leader who's been chosen by God. Because touch not God. Not touch not God's anointed. That's a verse in the Bible that they use. So the framework for how they operate is completely different from how more progressive. I would argue even moderate Christians are going to look at their political figures. Yeah, that's really important here.
- [42:02]
A
No, you're absolutely right. So the two examples we just showed you are very overt examples of Christian nationalism that I would say even a lot of maybe more moderate Christian nationalists would disagree with. They might say that's extreme. I don't agree with that. So this next One we're going to show you, I think, is a little more insidious. So this is actually a sermon from the pulpit. And I need people to know who did not come from this world. Because if you. If you. If you're not born religious, you know you didn't grow up in this world at all. It can be like, how are these people so blind? How do they not see exactly. That, like, who they're supporting is the opposite of the teachings of Jesus in their own book? This next example is why. So this. This sermon was also before the election. This. His name is Pastor Jordan Easley. He is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Cleveland, Tennessee. So it's a very small town, but it's the largest church in this small town. They have a few thousand members. So most people have no idea who this person is.
- [43:08]
B
Right.
- [43:08]
A
And this is not to single him out. We're using him as an example of sermons that are given in thousands and thousands of churches every single Sunday throughout our nation. So you have people that will go and listen to him speak. And because this is not overt Christian nationalism, and it is. It is hidden with the idea that what he's speaking is just biblical truth, then that's how people get sucked into Christian nationalism. And that's how people can look at someone like Charlie Kirk and say he was just persecuted because he was such a good Christian. What he. He just spread the gospel. He was just known for spreading, for teaching Jesus when what he actually taught was Christian nationalism. And it's sermons like what we're about to show you that. That give people that mindset. They. They are indoctrinated week after week after week with this more subtle.
- [44:02]
B
That's right.
- [44:02]
A
Approach. So this is a longer clip. It's like three minutes long. So we can, like, stop throughout it.
- [44:07]
B
I think we should stop throughout it because there's some things that we should point out also, in case it's not clear. Do not harass this pastor. Do not send the church any nasty emails. Like, we are not those kinds of people. This is not that kind of channel. And we strongly condemn that. So please do not do that. Like, do not be mean to these folks. Okay? We're just doing this for education.
- [44:25]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's over a year old, too. We're using it just as an example.
- [44:28]
B
That's right.
- [44:29]
A
He's not the only pastor, by any means, that does sermons like this.
- [44:34]
B
Here we go.
- [44:35]
I
But not only is truth life changing, let me give you one more fact about truth. Are you ready? Truth is under Attack. Chuck Colson once said that it is the cultural crisis of our time. John MacArthur says it's a frontal assault on the very person and character of God. Josh McDowell says it's the last step on the road to anarchy.
- [44:58]
B
Really quick, he's quoting all evangelical fundamentalist pastors or apologetics or apologists. Just so you know, Sean McDowell or Josh McDowell, John MacArthur. These are all people who are like, legends and the white evangelical world, just so the audience knows.
- [45:16]
A
Yeah.
- [45:17]
I
Pope John Paul II says it's undermining the very foundation of all morality. You say, Jordan, what are these prominent leaders talking about? Let me tell you. They're talking about how our evil world is attacking the truth of God's word. Hey, you and I live in a day where political correctness is king and truth is being silenced by the muzzle of. Of tolerance. Hey, the world's on a mission right now to teach tolerance to the people on planet Earth. Do you believe that today? Shake your head if you agree. Hey, you look from elementary school classrooms to PhD seminars, and people are bombarding people with this idea of tolerance, and they're bombarding our kids right now on YouTube, on TikTok, through liberal media outlets. I'm just telling you, there is an army of people that have. Are attacking our kids with this idea of tolerance.
- [46:09]
A
Pause for a second.
- [46:10]
B
Yeah, so much here.
- [46:11]
A
I just want to point out. Notice how he throws in very subtly, he says in schools, on TikTok. Liberal media.
- [46:20]
B
Liberal. Yep. Liberal media.
- [46:22]
A
Like that. That word. Right. Like the way that they talk about. They equate liberal with this, like, almost satanic evil side of things.
- [46:32]
B
Exactly. Right. And. And tolerance. Right. That he's setting this up as, like, tolerance is somehow a bad thing.
- [46:39]
A
And.
- [46:39]
B
And also he said earlier the truth of God's word. So for him, what I'm hearing him say is that the book in his hands, the English Protestant Bible, with a very complicated history of how we even have that version that had tons of hands in the process of interpreting, translating, editing, correcting, trying to find manuscripts that maybe didn't match up, making hard decisions. That book is God's word. It's a very subtle thing because we take it for granted, but there's a conflation of absolute truth, and that truth being found in the book that he holds in his hands. And more than that, the interpretation of the book that he holds in his hands. Right. And so that's the setup is that, well, okay, so God's word, the Bible, is true. The world is attacking Christianity with things like tolerance and Liberal outlets like TikTok, apparently. Right. Are promoting that to our kids to take them away from the truth. That's the setup we're dealing with right now.
- [47:46]
A
He also mentioned political correctness.
- [47:49]
B
Yes. Now imagine growing up as a teenager in this space and hearing this kind of message reinforced in your worship music and in the books that you read, in the movies that you find, in the church sermons that you hear, in the parachurch ministries that you're a part of. This is said over and over again in a million different ways to reinforce this narrative both overtly and subtly. Keep that in mind.
- [48:12]
I
You grow up like many of us do. You're being told right now heterosexuals ought to be tolerant of homosexuality. You're being told that pro lifers ought to be tolerant of abortion. You're being told that Christians ought to be tolerant of all forms of immorality.
- [48:27]
B
Stop right there. Notice, remember earlier we played Jerry Falwell's clip of him going after the abortionists. Right. And the homosexuals. It's the same stuff. It's the same packaging that the Moral Majority laid out back in the 80s and 90s, just updated with modern language and this duality that if you're straight, you're told you have to tolerate gay people, as if that's inherently a bad thing in a pluralistic society with 300 million people inside of it, ruled not by the Bible, but by the Constitution.
- [49:00]
A
Right, Right.
- [49:00]
B
Because to date, there are no LGBTQ plus groups trying to force legislation down the throats of Bible believing Christians, so to speak, and forcing them to perform gay weddings or forcing them to leave their straight marriages and marry someone of the same sex or to undergo a gender affirming surgery. That's not what's happening. It's actually the opposite. It's the opposite, but for the.
- [49:25]
A
Because even in the passing of gay marriage, religious exemptions are built into that law.
- [49:32]
B
Yes, exactly. But for this pastor, even the reality of those people having rights and being maybe publicized and being accepted in media and. And in culture is a bridge too far. That's what's really happening here underneath all these words.
- [49:47]
A
And it's interesting, too. He's not even complaining about, like, that they need to be affirming or supportive or agreeing with it. He's saying it's bad that you just have to be tolerant.
- [49:59]
B
Right. Just tolerant.
- [50:00]
A
Just letting them exist. Right.
- [50:02]
B
By the way, tolerance doesn't mean you're comfortable. I mean, I tolerate a lot in my everyday life when I take out the stinky trash, I tolerate that smell to throw it in the trash. Right? And I'm just saying, like, tolerate doesn't mean you have to do anything but just simply allow them to be. That's all. Like, you don't have to agree with it, but you have to allow it in a secular society. Okay, we'll keep moving.
- [50:23]
I
When we stand for the truth, what are we called? We're called ignorant. We're called intolerant. We're called arrogant. We're called bigots and zealots and extremists. And why? Because we believe in the word of God.
- [50:35]
B
See the conflation there, audience, between truth and the word of God. Truth and bigotry. Right? Truth and ultimately hate that word. Truth is doing so much heavy lifting here. So much heavy lifting, and it's tying it back to the Bible. And really what it is is this interpretation of the Bible that's really key to understand. I would argue, April, that's maybe the linchpin of all of this. Right? Is conflating the word truth with what. What. What they say God's word says about these culture war issues.
- [51:04]
A
Yep.
- [51:04]
I
Okay, I want you to hear me say this today. I believe the greatest enemy of truth is tolerance. The greatest enemy of truth.
- [51:14]
B
Wow.
- [51:14]
I
Is tolerance. Have you noticed that tolerance is only being pushed in areas related to the Bible? Culture's not coming after the areas that have nothing to do with the word of God. But if the word of God says it, it's in the eye of the bullseye. Hey, there's no room for tolerance in. I mean, I think about today.
- [51:33]
A
Pause it for a second.
- [51:34]
B
Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, say it, April. Say it.
- [51:37]
A
He's about to give a very stupid analogy that we talked about before. But I just. The greatest enemy of truth is tolerance. I just don't think he. I think he failed his antonym quizzes.
- [51:56]
B
He was probably homeschooled. Like me.
- [51:58]
A
Yeah. And me.
- [52:00]
B
Just kidding. Listen, hold on. I'm just kidding. People who homeschool were just making a joke. Okay, don't get my DMs. I was homeschooled. That's why I make.
- [52:06]
A
We were homeschooled, too. We can joke about being home.
- [52:08]
B
Just going around.
- [52:10]
A
This is. This is the insidious part of it all, because he's got this fancy little PowerPoint going on behind him, and he is framing this. This whole diatribe that is really going against what marginalized people totally like, especially queer people and then women. Really, those two things, like, notice, too. He's like, did you notice whenever people go after what. What they're going after is things that are in the Bible only.
- [52:41]
B
Right?
- [52:42]
A
Which is ridiculous. I don't even know where he's like, getting that from. He's. He's just, like, using a bunch of buzzwords and using the word truth so loosely. But. But every single person that is sitting in that audience hearing their pastor say this to them is reaffirming what they're already taught. This is what we call confirmation bias. He is confirming everybody's bias in there. And earlier, when he said, and when we stand up for truth, we're called intolerant, we're called bigots. So now all of the people that have said racist things that week on Facebook where someone said, hey, that's pretty bigoted, now they're feeling, oh, badge of honor. I'm not actually a racist or a bigot. I was just standing for biblical truth.
- [53:26]
B
I'm persecuted. Now I'm under attack. I'm under attack. Also, can we just say this line? The greatest enemy of truth is tolerance Perfectly demonstrates how Trump is accepted in these spaces. Because Trump is not a truth teller. He's a liar. But in this framework, that's not the biggest enemy of truth. Tolerance is. And if Trump is one thing, he is intolerant. He is quite intolerant. So you can see how this definition or this little limerick here fully reinforces the ideology of what Trump is doing. Right? Because it's not about the lies. It's about the tolerance versus intolerance. And the last thing I have to say is that it is so frustrating hearing people use this word truth when they believed latent lies, even about the Bible. You know what? The Bible talks about much more than an ancient understanding of same sex sex, which, by the way, usually has much more to do with power dynamics than it does loving monogamous relationships. It has a lot more to say about how we treat the poor in a society and the oppressed. It has a lot to say about rich business owners who hoard their wealth and withhold wages from their workers. Yet that's not what this guy's talking about. Is he somehow in God? In his version of the truth of God's word, those verses are omitted. They don't really count for today. He's never going to critique the billionaire class because this comes from a capitalistic understanding of the Bible. The book, the Bible. What's the book called? Oh, One Nation Under God by Kevin Cruz demonstrates how this kind of has all happened. But, like, let's just be so clear. This man is not just reading the Bible plainly. He's not just telling the quote, unquote truth of God's word. He. He is picking and choosing because he's part of a larger culture war framework. He's picking and choosing specific culture war issues that he's passionate about and making the Bible be much louder on them than it actually is, period. He's actually telling a lie. But in his worldview, the greatest enemy of truth is not a lie. So that's okay. It's tolerance, which he cannot be. And here we are. Here we are. That's how the logic works.
- [55:34]
A
I don't know if he's going to set this up again, but he's about to talk about. He's giving an analogy about music.
- [55:40]
B
Can't wait.
- [55:41]
I
Hey, there's no room for tolerance in music. I mean, I think about today, if someone in our orchestra earlier today decided that they were going to play the song at twice the tempo of everybody else, you know what would happen? Yilda would have freaked. He would have called a timeout and been like, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that, man. It's sheet music. We're all going to play the same notes.
- [56:04]
B
Right?
- [56:05]
I
He wouldn't try to convince the rest of the players to just accept that person's interpretation of the tempo. He would have said, no, no, no, we're in this together. This is what it says. This is what we are going to do. There's no room for tolerance in music.
- [56:20]
B
Okay, hold on. I am a professional musician. Okay, I need to talk about this for a second. And you also, April, are a musician as well. We both know that songs get rearranged and they get tweaked and they get reinterpreted all the time, including in Church World. You know how many versions of what a Beautiful Name I've done? You know how many vamps I've done? How many just the drums I've done? How many? All right, big hits here, I've done. Like, that's the whole point of music, is that you're able to rearrange it. What he's talking about is not being on the same page during a live performance. And that is not the same thing as this idea that you can't. That. That music is not tolerant. Music is flexible and adaptive. It's art. It changes all the time.
- [57:04]
A
Right. I actually think he accidentally gave a very good analogy for what Christian nationalism is. Christian nationalism says, hey, we play this song and only this song, and we only play it this way. And if you don't play this song, exactly how we play it, then you can't be in our band and you are outcast and you're not a true musician.
- [57:28]
B
Exactly.
- [57:29]
A
What Christian nationalism does is it ignores the fact that not only do more songs exist out there, but there are other genres of music that are still very valid forms of music and art. But Christian nationalist says, no, that's not true music because you're not playing what we're telling you to play.
- [57:49]
B
That's exactly right. No, that is a perfect. You're spot on there. I just think about how crappy of a musician I'd be if I only listened to one genre of music and said this is the only way to play music. I would be the worst possible musician ever. I would never get called for gigs. I would have no wider understanding. Also, I would have no humility. Right. Because one thing you learn as a musician is that the more experience you get, the more you realize how little you actually know and how other genres of music have so much to teach you about the world and culture and understanding. Right? But this is a worldview that is inherently intolerant of that because they have their one note song that they insist is the objective truth of all the world. And anyone who goes outside of their one note white ass, boring ass song. Right, Is somehow chords repeat. Literally. It is four fricking chords tops at 72 bpm. Okay? And you cannot change it.
- [58:46]
A
You're absolutely the bridge of oceans 52 times.
- [58:49]
B
I'm triggered. I'm triggered. That's all it is. It's just oceans over and over. Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's a great. A great point.
- [58:57]
I
Room for tolerance in the area of most things. And yet Christians are being told when it comes to things like morality and righteousness and personal holiness, that we ought to be the ones to compromise what we believe and be tolerant to the culture we find ourselves bs.
- [59:14]
A
No one's telling you you can't believe what you believe.
- [59:17]
B
No one. No one. You can. Unless what you believe is to take over other people's rights and to hit them in the face with it, then you can't do that. If your belief is I have right to swing my fist right into your face and you have to just sit there and take it. Okay, you got me there. Checkmate. Checkmate. You're right, you can't do that. But if what your claim is, is that you can't even think in your head certain things that we don't like, you are delusional. You're delusional. You're Delusional. Also, can we just say that American culture reflects evangelicalism strongly. Like they have their own worship industry, their own book industry, their own movie industry. Most people in Congress and in the government are Christian. There are 300,000 churches in America. If you drive down almost anywhere, you'll see crosses and Christian ads. Cross Call 1855 Truth for Truth about whatever it is. How many billboards we are. Yeah, we are. We are totally drowning in this person's culture and it's still not enough for him because other people are allowed to live their lives and love who they want outside of this man's one note paradigm.
- [60:26]
A
Yep.
- [60:27]
B
Like the gall of these people. This dude honestly probably makes a good living doing this and he's still not content.
- [60:34]
A
This one, this one actually infuriates me more than the Joel Webbins and the Lance Wallnaus of the world because of how covert this is, because of how like, for people that. Cause he's, he's probably speaking to people that only watch Fox News.
- [60:54]
B
That's right.
- [60:54]
A
Listen to K. Love that. You know, only listen to Christian media and music and movies. And they only listen to sources that reaffirm what they already believe. And now they have their pastor telling them, yes, this narrow view that you have that actually excludes a lot of people and wants to take rights away from people, that's actually biblical truth. You're on God's side and so you're just reinforcing all these people to keep believing what they're doing, to keep voting for people that, that want to push this Christian nationalist agenda, all thinking that they're doing the good Christian thing because they're taught, don't listen to people outside of me. And if, when you're in this world too, like you brought up a good point earlier about Trump and saying don't touch God's anointed, that is something that you're taught about pastors. Pastors are viewed as this authority figure. They can speak for God. So you don't question what they say because it's almost like hearing directly from God through them.
- [61:57]
B
That's right.
- [61:57]
A
And so you're just indoctrinating further people. And that's why I still have empathy for a lot of people that are sitting in those pews because they don't know any better to a degree. And they're taught that. It's so frustrating to me because yes, they're grown ass adults, they could easily go and look for information and get out of it. But when your whole community is based on you believing these things, and it's good for morality. Now, when you feel like, oh, my gosh, look at us, we're on God's side, we have a good Christian duty to get rid of those evil leftists and that liberal media. And, like, it's, it really brings this kind of camaraderie that you're in. You are living a life that is bigger than you, that you have a great purpose, that is to squash evil. Like, I, I can empathize with that because I've, I came from that world. I also believed that. But it's also so infuriating because it's, it causes so much harm. And this is how I really. This is a huge reason why Trump won. Like, the reason why we have the second Trump administration is because of pastors like this who give sermons like this week after week after week, and people don't. Are ignorant enough to just believe it.
- [63:18]
B
I. Yeah, I mean, this is why 80% of white evangelicals voted for Trump, because according to them, the biggest enemy of truth is not lies, it's tolerance. I, I have to say one thing about this pastor, and I don't know his background. There's either one of two things happening here. Either this pastor is incredibly ignorant of the Christian tradition beyond his little four walls of fundamentalism, and he's essentially passing his ignorance on to his congregation, or he knows better and he's lying to them. There's no other. There's no other option in my mind. And either way, it's bad because that means he's either. He's either either not qualified to do what he's doing, or he's blatantly not telling them the full picture. He's not explaining to them how the Bible is a really complicated collection of texts, and to assume that it's. It's giving universal, objective morality is batshit crazy. Just read the damn thing. Like, just read Genesis and you will see a very complicated picture of quote, unquote morality. Like, I don't know, Lamech taking two wives, or Jacob marrying his first cousins who are both sisters at different points in their life and giving them both children and God bringing the nation of Israel through. One of those lines like, that doesn't sound very biblical to me as far as his idea of marriage and sexuality. Like, just read the. Read the Bible. Read the Bible. Oh, God, it's so frustrating. Okay, let's finish this guy's analogy. He's almost so.
- [64:39]
A
I, I wanted to see. Oh, gosh, he. Sorry. I'm trying to look at his background. I Want to see if he has a. Like, a seminary degree.
- [64:48]
B
There's. Oh, my God. I hope.
- [64:50]
A
Jordan is a graduate of Dallas Baptist University, and he went on to receive his master's of Christian studies from Union University. So I. We share an alma mater because I graduated from DBU also.
- [65:03]
B
It's just ridiculous. Like, this guy should know better.
- [65:05]
A
I. I want to say, though, I think it's. I think it's a combination of both. I think at some point, a lot of these pastors might know better or might hear like, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't be doing this. Yeah, but you can all. You can say things so often that you eventually believe it yourself.
- [65:25]
B
Totally.
- [65:26]
A
And especially in this world. Like, look. Look at the people that are getting book deals right now. Toxic empathy. Ali Beth Stuckey, like, demonizing it. Like, they're all politically motivated. Like, those are the books that cell. Those are the. The ministries that take off that. That are speaking into this culture war. And so you almost have this pressure from all of his other pastor friends to do that. And also, if he were to come out and say, you know, hey, leftists are people too. Or Lib. Like, you can be like. Or if he. Like, if he doesn't say anything, like, he's up, he's at risk of losing his livelihood.
- [66:03]
B
Oh, totally.
- [66:04]
A
When you're in this world, your beliefs are directly attached to whether or not you still have a job. Like, if he were tomorrow against Christian nationalism, he's done. He loses his ministry. You know what I mean? Like, there's a.
- [66:18]
B
Because the people who he taught, he trained them to look out for a wolf in sheep's clothing. And now he's the wolf. Now he became the liberal. He went woke. Now he's the new target.
- [66:31]
A
And I want to point out, too, look at Meg Basham. She wrote this book, Shepherds for Sale. The entire point of her book is to point to, quote, unquote, liberal pastors who are wolfs in sheep's clothing.
- [66:42]
B
But really, she's the liberal drift.
- [66:44]
A
She called out, actually, a lot of very conservative pastors, but because they just didn't support Trump, they were, like, liberal. They were the enemy. Like, there's.
- [66:54]
B
He went after Gavin Ortland, who's like, a very conservative Protestant apologist for talking about, like, the importance of president preserving the planet. And she's like, oh, my God, he's woke. It's like that. That's not a Preserving the planets, Meg. We only got one of these things, okay? There aren't other planets for us to go to. Like, it's biblical, dude.
- [67:11]
A
But there is a. There is an entire force of, of, you know, the people that hate cancel culture of this group of people like Meg Basham, Ali Bestucky. They will send their millions of followers to go after any Christian that they deem not Christian enough that they think has a liberal drift. And really how they know that is if they don't fully support Donald Trump, that has become the new litmus test for being a true Christian. And even though Jordan Easley, in this little speech, he doesn't say Trump at all, he doesn't say Democrat, he doesn't say Republican. Right? So that's how it can just, like, sneak in. But. But you know what he's saying, Everybody in their knows, you don't have to like. It reminds me in 2016, 2015, the week before the 2016 election, it was. No, it was the Sunday before the Tuesday that we voted in 2015. So it was the 2016 election between Hillary and Donald Trump. I was sitting in a church in Dalton, Georgia, which is Marjorie Taylor Greene's district, mind you. And by the way, I left this church after this because I was so pissed. But the pastor got up and he said, here at this church, we don't tell you who to vote for. We don't endorse candidates. But what we will tell you is you need, as Christians, we need to vote for biblical values, which is pro life, pro Israel, anti gay, any, like, a pro Second Amendment, because we have to defend ourselves as Christians for Christian persecution. Like, he listed everything that clearly pointed to Donald Trump. Everyone in there knew exactly who he was talking about. Everyone cheered, everybody.
- [68:56]
B
It's like, when you. Dude, in my church, before I got. I got kicked out of it, they used to have pamphlets on the seat. We're just trying to compare the two candidates, you know, and who has a more biblical worldview. And it was like, obviously was so lopsided. It was more. It was more biased than a fricking carnival game. Like, it was so weird.
- [69:15]
A
I feel like I saw one that was Joe Biden versus Trump in 2020. And it was like, Joe Biden murders babies.
- [69:22]
B
Exactly.
- [69:23]
A
Donald Trump was like, saves babies. Which one?
- [69:28]
B
Yes. Joe Biden wants to tax you into oblivion. Donald Trump wants you to have more money in your pocket. It's. It's just, like, so clear. Anyway, all right, let's finish. Let's finish this, this clip out, and then we'll wrap up here. Friends, if this is helpful, let us know. We read all the comments, even if we can't respond to them. Please make sure to give this video a. Like, subscribe to the channel. We're trying to hit 10,000 subs by the end of hopefully October, so that'd be so helpful. Thank you very much. All right, here we go.
- [69:55]
I
I believe when it comes to things like heaven and hell and homosexuality and marriage and abortion and pornography and idolatry, and I go on and on and on when it comes to making a distinction between right and wrong, what we should believe and how we should think and what we should do and how we should live. I don't see this word of God being tolerant. I see the word of God being truth and the truth that we.
- [70:18]
B
I'm sorry. Heaven and hell. For real. Like, dude, heaven and hell. The Christian tradition has three major schisms about heaven and hell. And this guy's like, nah, the Bible's clear. Like, it's just so disingenuous. That's what gets me. It's so. It's bullshit. We have. I have to say it. It is such bullshit that he's saying this stuff so emphatically. It's just not.
- [70:46]
A
That's actually a dog whistle for Christian nationalism saying, the Bible is clear. The Bible is not clear. If the Bible were clear, there would not be over 45,000 current Christian denominations.
- [70:57]
B
Three major schisms with different Bibles, by the way. Different Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Bibles are all different with different books. I'm just saying, like, they, they. They share a common core, but they have different books inside of them. Give me a break. Okay, sorry. Now I'm ranting. I'll stop.
- [71:15]
I
Belief is under attack.
- [71:17]
B
I hear a pad.
- [71:19]
I
The devil's working hard, y'.
- [71:20]
A
All, that manipulation.
- [71:22]
I
He's working hard to convince the devil, like you people that you love, that we ought to reject truth.
- [71:28]
B
Notice how he inserts the devil here. Before it was just liberal, and it was. You're being attacked. Now it's the devil. So you can easily make the connection between liberal and devil. And that's all by design. It's all by design. Why?
- [71:41]
I
Because if you reject the reality of truth, you in essence are reject. Rejecting the reality of God.
- [71:49]
B
Okay, there you go. I mean, that last piece, I think, is really good also for the audience who's watching or listening on podcast. On his screen, he has six statements. Truth is objective. Truth is universal. Truth is absolute. Truth is eternal. Truth is life giving. Truth is under attack. Now, all six of these statements, I think, are actually false, which is what's so hilarious, besides being objective. But this idea of truth being universal, that that is true. But the categories he's, he's applying truth to are not universal. Categories like even how we understand marriage has changed throughout human history. Why we get married, what marriage actually is and what it isn't has all changed. All of it has changed. Abortion, the perspective on that has changed recently, by the way. Right? Heaven and hell are not universal understandings or beliefs because we can't pray, prove one over the other. That's not the same thing as saying the earth is round, not flat. Because we can objectively prove why it's that way. We can measure the earth. We can go to outer space now. Right? These are category conflations. Theology, morality, philosophy are very slippery, complicated conversations and not nearly as universal as one wants to make them compared to science and data and mathematics. Right. Things that we can actually prove. It's just, it's a complete equivocation in a conflation of two very different categories, in my opinion.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah, no, I, I will stop there. I agree.
- [73:29]
F
Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community at tme, creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt safe, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.
- [74:16]
B
Experian is your big financial friend, helping you explore credit card offers with confidence. Some cards are labeled no Ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. See experian.com for details. Applying for cards labeled no Ding decline won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved.
- [74:36]
A
How long have we been going? We've been going an hour.
- [74:38]
B
April. We. Oh, we're at like an hour and 10, I think. Hour and yeah, hour and 11. We always. Oh, and you wanted to get to. You want to do the.
- [74:46]
A
I know Iird a weird Christian beep for you to watch.
- [74:49]
B
Can we do it quick?
- [74:51]
A
Yeah, I think we can I just feel like you would appreciate this as a ex Calvinist.
- [74:55]
B
We're. We're. We're trying to add more of these because we have so many clips to share. So here we go.
- [75:01]
A
Christian.
- [75:03]
B
All right, Today's Weird Christian, I have not seen. Should I just hit play?
- [75:07]
A
Let me explain who these people are real quick.
- [75:09]
B
Yeah, do that.
- [75:10]
A
They are. Oh, no.
- [75:11]
B
Come back.
- [75:12]
A
I lost it. Hold on. They. This is from a site. They're called Free Thinking Ministries. They're an apologetic.
- [75:21]
B
Apologetics. I was gonna say it's gotta be apologetics. It's got free thinking again. Oxymoron, but okay. Free Thinking Ministries. Here we go.
- [75:32]
J
I argue not for Tulip, but for Trump. And that P stands for Perseverance of Free Saints. I'll give the whole thing Trump total depravity. I affirm that much. There's not one aspect of my existence that's not infected with sin. R. Resistible grace. It's resistible, but it's amazing grace.
- [75:54]
A
You.
- [75:55]
J
Unlimited atonement, Jesus, Life, death, and resurrection is powerful enough to save every single human on the planet. It is not just limited to a few. But not everybody experiences that. How do we make sense of that? Well, m. Middle knowledge of the elect. God knows who would and who will freely choose to reject his love and grace into the infinite future. P. Perseverance of free saints. God knows who will persevere into the infinite future.
- [76:23]
A
Wow, that middle knowledge of. What did he say? Middle knowledge of something.
- [76:29]
B
I'll pull it up.
- [76:30]
A
That felt like. Of all.
- [76:32]
B
Middle knowledge of the elect. Wow. This is.
- [76:34]
A
What does middle knowledge mean? I've never heard that.
- [76:37]
B
I just feel like he's a Lord of the Rings fan. It was like Middle Earth, Middle. Middle knowledge, Middle owls. I mean, okay, yeah, I am an ex Calvinist, which. It's a whole thing. Tulip theology. And this guy made Trump the. This is so bad. It's not even good. It's just bad. Total depravity, resistible grace. Okay, so essentially what this guy is saying is he's no longer a Calvinist. He believes, like, in some form of free will, and he tied it back to the letters of Trump. God. God, get me out of here. This is like, the worst part.
- [77:06]
A
He is reformed, though. I looked at the comments, and there were quite a few reformed people that were like, no, this is a misrepresentation of what we believe as Reformed.
- [77:13]
B
I always say that. They always. As a reformed. As a. As a previous Reformed bro. They always say that. You know why? Because their points are untenable they for, for, for the Calvinists out there in America, they believe that God has preordained every single action that shall come to pass, even the really bad ones. But somehow God is not responsible for sin. And God still should get the glory that he deserves. And, and he will do that by saving a small portion of what they call the elect to go to heaven while damning the rest for hell. And this is a good, just loving God. And then when you say that, they go, I swear, if there's a Calvinist listening, they're gonna text me or they'll put in the comments. You're misrepresenting our theology. No, I am not. As someone who used to hold those views, R.C. sproul, you're like godfather of this modern evangelical reform nonsense says there is not one rogue molecule. So if God is predetermining all of his actions, God is on the hook for all the actions that they are predetermining. This is like very common sense logic, but they will tell you it's not. Anyway, it's a whole thing. It's for a different discussion, different episode.
- [78:22]
A
Anyway, I thought you someone that turned Tulip into Trump.
- [78:27]
B
Jesus, My God. Well, okay, just tying it together. That's another example of how this stuff is reinforced all day, right? So like it's a joke, right? It's kind of funny, but it still reinforces that like Trump is our dude, that like Trump is the one that God's using. And so you go to church and hear sermons like what we just heard. You go online and see videos like that that you're laughing at. Maybe you read an author who then is giving the justification for why Trump is a good guy or why the liberal agenda is bad, or why abortion is bad, or why gay marriage is bad. It all feeds in to this worldview. And last thing I'll say on this and we'll wrap up. When you're a white evangelical, everything is approved by other gatekeepers. You're never gonna hear someone who is outside of the bubble or not approved by them. So you're never gonna get a true understanding of any of the culture war talking points, right? You're never gonna get the actual data that non affirming theology kills. It actually, actually hurts people who are queer. You're never gonna get, you're never gonna get the data that abortion is much more complicated than just killing a child in the womb, because that's not what's going on, right? You're never going to get the information about immigration or about the Second Amendment or about gun violence. You're never going to get that. You're just going to get a reinforcement of why these perspectives are correct and why that evil world out there is bad.
- [79:44]
A
Can we compare the Trump to the actual tulip real quick? Because some of them were the same.
- [79:50]
B
Because some of them are the same.
- [79:51]
A
Like total depravity. Yeah. Unconditional election.
- [79:56]
B
Election.
- [79:57]
A
Limited atonement.
- [79:58]
B
Atonement. Irresistible grace. Perseverance of the same. Yeah.
- [80:02]
A
So he had. Or the T.
- [80:05]
B
He changed. He changed irresistible grace to resistible grace. That was like. That was the. More what he might call it, like an Arminian position where you can say no to God's calling. So under tulip theology, irresistible grace means that once God calls you, you cannot resist the call of God. It's irresistible. So when God taps you on the head and goes, I'm gonna elect you to be saved, or I'm gonna save you now. You have no choice. You've been predetermined to accept.
- [80:32]
A
It was his you the same. What was his you?
- [80:35]
B
Unlimited atonement. That's very different. Limited atonement.
- [80:38]
A
The U is the belief is unconditional Election.
- [80:41]
B
Right. And the I is the L is limited atonement. Limited atonement means that in this view, Christ only died for the elect. So the crucifixion, the penalty for our sins being paid, only applies to those who were elected. He's saying unlimited atonement. So God's Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all the sins of the world. So that's a very different perspective for sure.
- [81:04]
A
Interesting.
- [81:05]
B
Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
- [81:07]
A
There you have it.
- [81:08]
B
There you have it. Well, this was a fun episode. A jovial one, as always. Yeah, a little bit of joy.
- [81:18]
A
A witness of joy. Hopefully now you can spot some Christian nationalism, both overtly and the more insidious, covertly Christian nationalism.
- [81:29]
B
That's right.
- [81:29]
A
Yay.
- [81:30]
B
Yay, friends, thanks so much for being here again. Give this video a Like, subscribe to the channel. We go live every Thursday right here on YouTube and now also on substack via LinkedIn media square or LinkedIn square media. So make sure to follow us over there as well. I think that's all I got. How about you? You done?
- [81:46]
A
I am done. Have a great week, everybody.
- [81:49]
B
All right, See y.