59. The Christian Nationalist Value of Starving Families

Summary

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The Tim & April Show, Ep. 59

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals Network)
Episode Title: The Christian Nationalist Value of Starving Families
Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Theme: Unraveling the intersection of faith, politics, and culture—with a focus on Christian nationalism, SNAP (food stamp) benefits, government shutdown repercussions, and Christian hypocrisy around caring for the vulnerable.

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the looming crisis of 42 million Americans set to lose their SNAP (food stamp) benefits due to the government shutdown, analyzing the Christian nationalist rhetoric and political blame game behind it. Tim and April dig into misperceptions about welfare, hypocritical "Christian" policymaking, the real faces behind food insecurity, and why the U.S. safety net works as intended—against an ongoing background of wealth inequality. They call out political leaders for weaponizing faith, dissect misinformation, and discuss ongoing efforts (including their own mutual aid fund) to support families in need.

The episode also features discussions on Halloween controversies in Christian circles, “weird Christian” moments from evangelical influencers, and a candid look at evangelical disillusionment with MAGA politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: Surreal Headlines & Evangelical Irony

[02:00-03:59]

• April shares a live reaction to a headline: "Ted Cruz calls Marjorie Taylor Greene very liberal" for her recent pro-Israel stance.
• Tim points out the absurdity: “[03:53] The Onion couldn’t have written that kind of headline, right?”
• Both discuss how current evangelical figures occasionally support justice issues, but “it doesn’t make them liberal” and highlight the cognitive disconnect in conservative Christian rhetoric.

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2. Main Topic: SNAP Benefits, Government Shutdown, and Political Blame

[10:05-21:00]

• SNAP at Risk: 42 million (primarily children, elderly, and disabled) are about to lose food benefits due to the government shutdown.
• Political Spin: The USDA’s own website blames Senate Democrats, implying they prioritize health care for “illegal aliens” and “gender mutilation” over feeding hungry families—a dishonest, inflammatory framing by the Trump administration.
• Root of Shutdown: The shutdown is driven by GOP refusal to extend health insurance subsidies (Obamacare/Medicaid tax credits), risking sky-high insurance premiums and millions uninsured.
  • Tim: “As someone who uses the marketplace... with the subsidy, I can afford healthcare. Without it, I couldn’t.”
• Both hosts stress: Even with the subsidies, copays and medical debt remain a crisis. The U.S. could afford universal coverage but chooses not to.

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Christian Nationalist Hypocrisy

[16:33-18:38]

• April: “Day after day we hear ‘America is a Christian nation,’ but suddenly, when it’s about feeding the hungry, ‘that’s the church’s job, not the government.’”
• Tim: “Suddenly, you and I are the America First people in this conversation—please fund SNAP!”

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3. SNAP Myths & Data

[21:00-25:00]

• Myth Debunking:

  • “People on food stamps are lazy” is factually wrong.
  • Data: 2/3 of SNAP recipients are children, elderly, or disabled.
  • 79% of families receiving SNAP include at least one worker – people are working!
  • Most recipients pay into the system through taxes.

• Systemic Impact:

  • SNAP cuts hurt not just families, but also local stores and economies.
  • Medical debt and healthcare costs (from the loss of subsidies) will drive more families into bankruptcy.
  • Tim: “We have tons of money. We’re a very wealthy country. We just choose not to help people.”

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4. Intentionality Behind the Cuts & Economic Context

[25:12-31:30]

• Excerpting historian Heather Cox Richardson’s summary:
  • Cuts are planned, with devastating future SNAP benefit reductions already passed (“One Big Beautiful Bill Act”), timed to go into effect after midterm elections—deliberately delayed to avoid electoral consequences.
  • Medical bankruptcies are a top cause of overall bankruptcy.
  • Administrative decisions are intentionally making it easier for medical debt to ruin credit.
  • April: “If families are bankrupt and starving, they’re less likely to fight back.”
  • Tim: “Wealth distribution is off the charts. The top 1% have more than a third of all U.S. wealth; the bottom 50% have just 2%. The system is rigged.”

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5. Weaponized Propaganda & Us vs. Them

[31:43-33:00]

• Propaganda convinces low-income people to blame fellow poor people for being on SNAP, rather than blaming the ultra-wealthy who hoard wealth.
• Tim: “It’s really brilliant that these billionaires have convinced white evangelicals to be free advertisements for propaganda that hurts them.”

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6. Government Inaction, Lies, and SNAP Funding Reality

[37:16-44:11]

• Mike Johnson's Narrative: Blames Democrats for not passing the funding bill, claims “there’s no money for SNAP.”
  • Tim: Calls this a “lie through his teeth.” There's precedent for funding SNAP through contingency funds during shutdowns.
• Chuck Schumer’s Response [40:24-42:18]: Affirms there is sufficient contingency funding; Republicans are misrepresenting facts and misusing blame.
  • Schumer: “Johnson just lies… It is not illegal, and his own president has done it [during Trump admin shutdown].”
• Blocked Solutions:
  • Bills (even a GOP one from Josh Hawley, and another Senate Dem bill) to keep SNAP funded could pass with bipartisan support, but the House isn’t voting—allegedly to avoid voting to release the Jeffrey Epstein files.

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7. Community Action: Mutual Aid & TNE Support

[35:24, 51:54, 81:48]

• The New Evangelicals launches a mutual aid fund: A $100 grocery gift card for those impacted by SNAP cuts. Donations and applications via thenewevangelicals.com/support.
• “Your donation is tax deductible… There’s no administrative fee. It goes right to other people.”
• TNE Connect offers a private, free community for folks seeking support and resources.

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8. Evangelical Disillusionment: Quietly Quitting MAGA?

[54:18-62:44]

• Axios/Raw Story reports: “Large numbers of evangelicals and Catholic churches are quiet quitting President Donald Trump and leaving MAGA…”
  • April believes it: “A lot of everyday evangelicals are becoming more apolitical… as more ICE/cruelty videos surface, people are realizing Trump’s not a good person.”
  • Tim is skeptical: Polling (PRRI) still shows 76% of white evangelicals support Trump; systemic biases run deep.
• Both acknowledge change is incremental, but important.
  • Notable quote (April): “It is unrealistic to think you’ll get people from die-hard Republican to blue-no-matter-who overnight. But it’s a step.”

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9. Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• On Christian Hypocrisy

  • April: “[17:37] We hear ‘America is a Christian nation’… until suddenly, it’s about feeding the hungry—‘that’s not the government’s job, that’s the church’s job.’”
  • Tim: “[20:35] This is literally a program that benefits and helps the least of these… the people that Jesus told us to help.”

• On SNAP Realities

  • Tim: “[22:50] Two thirds of SNAP recipients are children, elderly, or disabled… And of the working adults, 79% are working.”
  • April: “[12:44] Some people’s premiums are going up from $400 to over $2,000 a month.”

• On Systemic Injustice

  • Tim: “[28:20] If the top 50% own 98% of the wealth, and the bottom 50% only owns 2%, something feels real weird about that… The system is rigged.”

• On Propaganda

  • Tim: “[31:43] It’s really brilliant that these billionaires have convinced white evangelicals… to be free mouthpieces for propaganda that hurts them.”

• On Quietly Quitting MAGA

  • April: “[55:10] The really loud MAGA Christians are the minority… everyday evangelicals might be more apolitical than we realize.”
  • Tim: “[56:42] I don’t want to shame people… But don’t misunderstand this article… There’s still a lot of work to do.”

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10. Weird Christian Corner & Halloween

[71:12-80:34]

• Kim Robinson (prophetess) claims a vision of Charlie Kirk riding horses with Jesus in heaven: Both hosts marvel at the earnestness and disconnect from reality.

  • April: “[74:15] I did a quick Google search… The only thing showing up is this lady talking about it.”
  • Tim: “[74:25] When you’re out of it, you’re like, that’s batshit crazy.”

• Jonathan Cahn on Halloween [76:54]:

  • “Sending your children out to celebrate a holiday that focuses on evil, darkness… and then get diabetes.”
  • Both hosts mock the alarmism: “Vandalism to diabetes pipeline!”
  • Tim provides “Mischief Night” context, explaining the origin of east coast Halloween pranking.

• Halloween in Their Homes: Both now enjoy Halloween with their kids without religious guilt.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Ted Cruz/Greene headline and evangelical absurdity | 02:00-03:59 | | SNAP benefits, shutdown, & government spin | 10:05-21:00 | | Myths about SNAP recipients, data discussion | 21:00-25:00 | | Economic context, wealth distribution | 25:12-31:30 | | Propaganda & evangelical buy-in | 31:43-33:00 | | Mike Johnson/Schumer: The blame game on SNAP | 37:16-44:11 | | Mutual aid fund announcement | 35:24, 51:54, 81:48 | | “Quiet quitting” MAGA & shifting evangelical support| 54:18-62:44 | | Weird Christian Corner | 71:12-80:34 | | Halloween debate in Christian circles | 80:12-81:46 |

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Memorable Moments & Signature Tone

• Wry, self-deprecating humor about their own former evangelical stances (“I too was taught ‘if you don’t work, you don’t eat’”).
• Real-time, unfiltered reactions to political absurdities (“The Onion couldn’t have written that”).
• Blunt condemnation of hypocrisy (“They’re literally going to let children starve so they don’t have to release the Epstein files” – April, [46:11]).
• Deep empathy and righteous anger for families harmed by Christian nationalist policies—balancing snark with genuine heartbreak.

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Resources & Calls to Action

• Mutual Aid Fund: thenewevangelicals.com/support
• TNE Connect community: thenewevangelicals.com/connect
• Book Club (Katherine Stewart’s "The Power Worshippers")
• Encouraged listeners to “like, subscribe, review” and join TNE Connect for resources and support.

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Conclusion

This episode is a powerful—and at times scathing—breakdown of how Christian nationalism is being used to justify policies that literally starve families, deepen economic inequality, and cut social supports in the U.S. Tim and April provide data, lived experience, and humor as they expose hypocrisy, push back against propaganda, and offer tangible solutions (mutual aid, community). They close with a laugh about Halloween culture wars and a heartfelt welcome to anyone quietly leaving MAGA, affirming: the work of justice happens one “brick” at a time—and all are welcome on the journey.

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Notable Quote to End On
April: “If people are willing to swallow that pill and realize they were causing harm… more power to them. That is tough. It is really hard to leave that world… because a lot of times that means losing everybody you’ve ever loved.” [64:43]

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Transcript

[April Lajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production.

[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Lajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Lajoy]

The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April A joy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I am Tim Whitaker.

[April Lajoy]

And we've got another full episode for you all today. Really just the covering, the snap benefits going out and the shutdown and maybe a couple weird Christian leaps this week.

[Tim Whitaker]

Everything Sucks. That should be the name of this show. Everything Sucks with Tim Whitaker and April the choice. Oh, my God.

[April Lajoy]

Can I tell you a weird thing? Literally, as the countdown was going down.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

I pulled open Facebook and from Huffington Post Politics. This is a real headline. Ted Cruz calls Marjorie Taylor Greene very liberal. Stop. It's right there.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, no.

[April Lajoy]

I just. I needed you to know because I saw. I was like, what that. Who?

[Tim Whitaker]

Ladies and gentlemen, that was not planned. That was not. That was an authentic moment between April and I. You are kidding me.

[April Lajoy]

No. This is his quote ready. What I found is that whenever an elective official decides they are going to turn on Israel and hate Israel, you will quickly see every other policy out of their mouth, become very, very liberal. And so suddenly, Marjorie is for massive government spending and taxes and open borders and amnesty.

[Tim Whitaker]

I. I don't even know how to respond to that.

[April Lajoy]

We're in the Upside Down.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a wild more and more delusion.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about. This article came out recently from Axios that talks about how some evangelicals are quietly quitting maga. I think you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene is on the right side of a few issues lately. Does not mean she's liberal. Does not mean she's liberal.

[Tim Whitaker]

She still said Jewish space lasers. She still talked at Nick Fuentes's event a couple years ago and doubled down on it. She still has espoused the great replacement theory. You know, whenever she says things that we agree with, she's agreeing with us. We're not agreeing with her.

[April Lajoy]

Exactly.

[Tim Whitaker]

There's a big difference there. So. But I, I truly am shocked. I just, I'm sorry.

[April Lajoy]

I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

I just have a guard like, like you. The Onion couldn't have written that kind of headline, right?

[April Lajoy]

No.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my goodness. Well, listen, friends, welcome into the show. I am Tim Whitaker. That's April Lajoy. If you're watching on Lincoln Square via substack, welcome in. We've been going live now for about, what, a little over a month in partnership with Lincoln Square on their substack. It's been so great. I can see all the comments if you're joining us on YouTube. Hello, friends. Good to see you. Please make sure to give this video a like and subscribe to the channel. We are really committed to doing this work and frankly, look, I don't want to toot our own horn, April, but I'm going to. You ain't going to find anything like the Tim and April show out there. There is no. I'm telling you because I, I, we do the research. There is no show that is covering Christian nationalism from the perspective of two former Christian nationalists and talking about politics and culture, exvangelical stuff, mainstream stuff. There's no, you ain't gonna find it anywhere else. So thank you for being here. It really means the world. Liking this video really helps get it out to new and new people and helps, you know, YouTube kind of push it. And again, if you're on substack, welcome in. We are reading the comments. We'd love to know what you think about the show as we get started. It's so good to have all of you. So. But yeah, April, I'm sorry, was not ready for that.

[April Lajoy]

I, I know. I didn't really. I had to share it. I saw it right before. I was like, oh, what is happening?

[Tim Whitaker]

Jeez Louise.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. And then, just FYI, he might have said this. I do have a little bit of a cold, so excuse the brain fog. Did you mention super chats? If you send in super chat, we'll read them on the air. We'll try to get to them. It might be a little delayed. We won't get them right Away. We'll try to find a nice little lull in the conversation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Lajoy]

Also, Happy Halloween. Tomorrow is Halloween.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't celebrate that demonic holiday. April, I'm a Christian. Hello. What kind of show do you think this is?

[April Lajoy]

Okay, well, I am a Christian that celebrates Halloween. As for me and my house, we will put a skeleton on our front porch.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you have any favorite, like, Halloweens that you dressed up for? Like, what are some of your favorite costumes that you've done?

[April Lajoy]

One time I dressed as bubble bath. Like, I made my own costume. I had like a laundry basket and I put a bunch of white and blue balloons in it and I had like a rubber ducky. And anyway, I went as bubble bath and I won my costume contest.

[Tim Whitaker]

Solid. Solid.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. What about you?

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, there's a side of me that not many people know about that is not on the Internet. But me and my friends, we really, we used to dress up a lot to go watch the Marvel Avengers movies. And I. So it's a long story, but in our friend group, it was a very tight friend group, very church oriented. We all gave each other different superhero names and no one could ever take that name once you were given that name. Okay, so my mind was the Hulk because I was 6 foot 4 and always like this really tall and doofy giant, and no one else was as tall as me in the group. So I have spray painted my body numerous times. Green, full green. Not with body paint. With like Walmart graffiti paint. That was the first time. And I have gone out in public with my friends as the Avengers many times for Halloween. My favorite one I did, I actually, I actually like this one so much, I printed out the picture and put it on my desk. It was when we all did Street Fighter and I was Zangief. Do you know what Zangief looks like?

[April Lajoy]

What, what noise did he make in Street Fighter? That's how I know them by like.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know.

[April Lajoy]

Like, I know them by the sounds they made.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, not that. I don't know. This is what Zangief looks like. This guy here. So, So I, I, I, I did indeed shave my chest hair into that little V. I did indeed wear this kind of vibe at one point. There's a picture of it on the Internet. It wasn't the Speedo. It was like super tight, like almost like wrestling pants. And I have pictures of me, like, doing his sign. Anyway, that was one of my all time favorites, probably. There was a bunch of us, we did the whole Street Fighter gamut so it was a good time. But those days are behind me now. I just watch my children dress up and I celebrate their. Their enjoyment. Yeah. Because our kids are three and five, this is the first year where they really got into Halloween. So our youngest one as Spider man and he's in, he's like, I'm Spider Man. I'm like, yeah, you are Spider Man. And our oldest, he dressed up as Lightning McQueen because he loves cars. Like, he's, he's obsessed with cars. So we got him a whole Lightning McQueen outfit that like, he essentially wears the car around like his waist and he has a little hat on. I don't share my children online, but. But it was one of those moments where I was like, I wish I could show people how freaking cute my kids are in these costumes.

[April Lajoy]

That's so cute. I. My favorite thing about Halloween right now is so we live in Lexington. We've moved here. Lexington is a Halloween town.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, love that for you.

[April Lajoy]

The neighborhoods go all out for Halloween decorations. And we're actually, we're ranked, I think by USA Today at the top 10 Halloween attractions because they. Every year they do a Halloween parade and at the end they do a zombie thriller parade. So anyone in the community that they want can go learn the thriller dance. And then it's just a parade of a bunch of different people that are dressed as Michael Jackson and then behind them is just a horde of zombies doing the Thriller dance.

[Tim Whitaker]

I love that. I love that.

[April Lajoy]

This year for the first time, my youngest joined me. So it was me, my 9 year old and my 6 year old and we were little zombies and it was so fun.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's adorable. There is something about as your kids get older, you can do more and more with them and it just like makes parenting all the more fun. So I'm really enjoying it.

[April Lajoy]

Yes. Yes, it was fun. Well, speaking of not fun.

[Tim Whitaker]

Jesus, why do we do this? Why do we torture ourselves? I guess we have to, right? We have to.

[April Lajoy]

So, yeah, like a wild hair right now because she. I think she's thinking about climbing my curtain. So if she does, I might have to.

[Tim Whitaker]

A very unhinged episode already. And we're just getting started.

[April Lajoy]

I know. I'm so sorry. Okay, so one thing that is actually really terrible that is happening, like for real, not joking around, is a lot of people, like 40 some million, 42 million, I think. Yeah. Are about to lose their SNAP benefits or food stamps that a lot of families, like millions of families rely on to eat. And that's going to run out November first because of this government shutdown. And now depending on what news source you watch or who you listen to, the re who is to blame for this is going to be different.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Lajoy]

Right. Like that's right. The literally the website for USDA has right at the top they're blaming Democrats for this. I don't know if you want to pull it up.

[Tim Whitaker]

I got it. It's hard to read, so I'm going to just read what it says verbatim.

[April Lajoy]

This is the official USDA website. Like gov website.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. This is not Breitbart or Oan's version. This is what the government is saying. All it's exclamation point. Senate Democrats have now voted 12 times to not fund the food stamp program, also known as a Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. Sn bottom line, the well has run dry at this time. There will be no benefits issued November 1st. We are approaching an inflection point for Senate Democrats. They can continue to hold out for health care for illegal aliens and gender mutilation procedures or reopen the government so mothers, babies and the most vulnerable among us can receive critical nutrition assistance. Then on the very, very bottom it says SNAP food restriction waivers. The Trump administration is leading bold reform to strengthen integrity and restore nutritional value within the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. That's on the website of the USDA government page.

[April Lajoy]

And like, let's just as a reminder, the reason why the government shut down is because they could not agree on a funding bill because Democrats wanted to extend certain insurance cuts. Because otherwise, as as it currently stands, based on what the Republicans have passed and want to pass is millions of Americans will lose their health insurance or their premiums will skyrocket so high that they can't afford it. And we've talked about this on in past episodes where we showed a graph of I think some people's premiums are going up from like 4 or $500 to over $2,000. That's a month.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Lajoy]

And that's just. And a lot of people can barely afford that 400, $500 premium. So Democrats are saying we have literally said we'll support this bill, but you need to extend the. The. I think it was from Obamacare.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

These tax incentives for so people can afford health insurance. And Republicans were like, no. So that's why it shut down.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want to be really clear these. Those are the only two things we're talking about here. The Democrats essentially said, we don't want you taking health care away from millions of people. We don't. We don't want cuts to Medicaid and we don't want the Obamacare subsidies to expire because health care will go off. That's it. That's the only two things we're talking about. And by the way, as someone who uses the marketplace to get my health care, because that's what I have to do when you go, it tells you the subsidy that you're eligible for. So I can see the cost of what I would pay out of pocket without these subsidies. Right. So this is, again, this, this helps working Americans. I am a working American with a family. It helps people like myself be able to afford health care. Now that's a whole different discussion. We can talk about how we are the world's richest nation with 3% of the world's population, we're the only like high wage nation in the world to not have some form of universal health care. That's a whole different discussion. But in this health scape that we call the American, you know, American economy, we have to rely on like these subsidies to cover the cost of what our health care would normally cost. And that still doesn't cover co pays and all kinds of hidden fees and deductibles help. Millions of millions of Americans still go into debt, medical debt, because of how our economy is set up to benefit certain types of people. So that's all in the background here. And look, April and I have plenty of beef with Democrats. Plenty of plenty. Yeah, but on this you're completely right. Why would we cut Medicaid or Medicare? And why would we stop these subsidies from, from, from or, or why would, why would, would we allow them to expire when they help people? And the response, right, is that the talking point has become Democrats want to fund health care for illegal aliens and they want to support gender mutilation. This is so, it's such, it's such nonsense. Propaganda, literally propaganda. When first off, let me just be clear as a, as someone who call me a radical leftist, but in the world's richest country, we should be able to cover health care for everyone inside of our borders, flat out. But let's just, let's play devil's advocate, okay? You're right. We shouldn't fund health care for, quote, unquote, illegal aliens. What a dehumanizing term. We're not doing that. What they're talking about is that hospitals by law are required to offer life saving support to anyone who walks inside of its space.

[April Lajoy]

Right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. They don't. If you come in having a heart attack, they don't have time to check your health care status or your, your, your, your legal status, they have to offer you life saving care. Essentially what this bill would do, it would cease to fund that kind of emergency care help for people. That's what they're talking about. So I guess in a weird way, if a quote unquote, illegal alien who's fully made in the image of God, fully deserving of dignity and respect, walks into a hospital and has a heart attack, yes, we should be able to offer them life saving care and the hospital should be reimbursed for that care. Mike Johnson essentially is saying no and then using that small, small thing to then paint the picture that Democrats want to give, quote, unquote, illegal aliens free health care. That's the reality.

[April Lajoy]

Can I just say too, that as someone who pays taxes, I want my taxes to go towards saving people's lives. I want my taxes to go towards helping other people pay for health care. I want my taxes to go towards feeding families who are hungry. I like that way better than having my taxes fund a genocide or have my taxes fund $40 billion to Argentina on a random bailout, right? Like, I don't even understand. Can I also just point out there's been something that irks me beyond no end. We hear day after day after day after day. This is a Christian nation. America was founded as a Christian nation. We need Christians to set the laws because only good morality can come from God. And we need a, a Christian government until suddenly it's feeding the hungry. And suddenly, well, that's not the government's job. That's the church's job. I'm sorry, are we a Christian nation like you've been saying for years? It's so infuriating.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course.

[April Lajoy]

So infuriating.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course. Suddenly you and I are the America first people in this conversation. It's like wild. Like, no, don't send 40 billion to Argentina. Please fund SNAP. Like, please ple. Can you please fund SNAP? So, so I, I think that's, that's really important to kind of just highlight right away that, like, this is very intentional. And we'll get into some of the details here. We have some clips we're going to play of Mike Johnson and, and Chuck Schumer, but maybe we should just kind of debunk some of the myths about Snap right away because I'm not sure about you, April, but as, as someone who grew up in conservative Christianity, right, I was taught early on that, hey, if you don't work, you don't eat this Comes right from the Bible, second Thessalonians, I think 3, 10.

[April Lajoy]

Now you gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

And to be clear, that scripture is so misused and out of context, the apostle Paul is talking to a church, he's not talking to the government. So again, it is funny, right, to hear these people be like, well, it's not the government's job to feed people. But then we can take second Thessalonians 3, 10, which is being said to a church, and suddenly that applies to the government. Right? Again, there is no logic here. So anyway, so I was taught, I'm not sure about you, but hey, essentially people on government welfare, government programs, they're just lazy. They just don't want to work. They are mooching off of society. And the Bible's clear, if you don't work, you don't eat. I'm curious, were you taught that too in your church upbringing?

[April Lajoy]

I was. And there was this idea that if you couldn't afford food, it's because you were lazy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? Right.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. And also this was a deep state plan by the Democrats to create a nanny state where we're all, you know, just beholden to them for their first, for some nefarious master plan of some kind of control. Again, I don't know what the control was for. I don't know what the Democrats agenda is to offer SNAP benefits besides saying, hey, people fall on hard times, we have tons of money, we're a very wealthy country, we should be able to have money set aside for those people. But apparently that's not what this is about. There's some political plot to put me on the, the government teat where I, I gotta just live on, live on it forever. It's, it's ridiculous.

[April Lajoy]

I know, I, I feel you. There's. The hypocrisy is so loud at this point.

[Tim Whitaker]

I. Oh God. I know.

[April Lajoy]

And, and I will say too, and I think you'll probably go through this, there are layers to these SNAP benefits beyond just families losing ability to eat, which is a tragedy of itself, but there's going to be ripple effects that we will get into as well.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, 100%. So just a few data points that I think is really important. First off, close to two thirds of SNAP recipients are children, elderly or disabled. Okay, let's just be really clear about this. Most people who get SNAP benefits, and by the way, it's not a lot of money. I'm not sure if you've seen the actual like table of what you're eligible for. It's a few hundred bucks a month at most for groceries, which is.

[April Lajoy]

And groceries are more expensive.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I'm not sure about you. We have, we're a family of four. We have two kids, three and five. So we are not exactly living with teenagers here. Our grocery budget probably per month is probably close to, I don't know, 800 bucks or something like that, because it's, it's like almost 160 bucks every time we go like once a week. And even then, it's like times where we have to go in between or we have to get, you know, paper towels, whatever. Like, it's, it's not exactly a cheap thing. Right. So I say this because the narrative is, oh, well, these are all lazy people. Well, that's not even true. Two thirds of SNAP recipients are children. Children. Think about that. Children. Or they are disabled or they are elderly. This is literally a program that benefits and helps the least of these, you know, the people that Jesus told us to help, the people that these Christian nationalists look over, despite the person that they claim to worship and follow directly, telling them that when you fed the hungry, you fed Christ. That when you took care of the sick, you healed Christ. That when you took, when you welcomed the immigrant or stranger, you welcomed Christ. Right. That's all out the window here. And it's so frustrating to see this and to see white evangelicals be in support of, of what's about to happen in this government really quick, then we'll move on. The other set that's very important is, is the working side. So out of people who do work, how does it break down? Well, according to. This is from the US Census Bureau, I believe the percentage of families with workers receiving Supplemental Nutrition Assistance program by family type, 79% of all families who get SNAP benefits include at least one worker. If you're a married couple, 83%. If you are a family with no spouse present, 76% have at least one worker. So people are working. And by the way, they're paying into the tax system. They should be eligible to get the benefits of this from the system that they pay into. So again, it's just this, this narrative that you and I were taught, and I would love to see in the comments too, either on substack or on YouTube if you, if you were taught this, this narrative that we were taught that people on food stamps are lazy, they're ripping off the system, they're mooching, they just don't want to work, et cetera. It just falls flat against the data, it just does because the, the majority of people are. They can't work. They're either elderly or they're disabled or they're children. And the ones who are working, abled adults, most do work and receive the benefit. It's wild.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wild that we're here.

[April Lajoy]

I know it's really frustrating and it's going to harm a lot of families. Like, it's just going to. I, I hope that they can come. So. Okay, do you want to pull up Heather Cox Richardson?

[Tim Whitaker]

We get that one now. Yeah, Real quick.

[April Lajoy]

We can go through that because I just want to kind of talk about there's more going on beyond.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah, good call.

[April Lajoy]

SNAP benefits going away. But then we're gonna get into the blame game that's been going around. If you only watch Fox News or only listen to MAGA talking heads, you would think that it is impossible for them to fun SNAP in a shutdown. And we will show you how they're just lying to you completely. Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Here you go. Do you want me to read these or you want to kind of prep us for this?

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, I just thought this was really good because you had mentioned medical debt earlier too, and she gets into that. So if you don't follow, Heather Cox Richardson, she is a historian and she, she's great. She kind of lays out what's happening in our nation just very matter of factly. It's not sensationalized, but it is just sometimes hard to read because it's just truthful. Okay. So she says the loss of SNAP benefits will hit not only the 42 million Americans who depend on them, but. But also the stores that accept EBT cards, which is how people pay for their snack, for their food.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Lajoy]

At the same time, the cost of health care insurance premium is soaring because of the expiration of the premium tax credits, which is kind of what triggered the shutdown. Medical debt is central to throwing families into bankruptcy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I believe it's one of the biggest reasons. It's like, it's at least top five reasons people end up in bankruptcy is because of medical debt. Think about that for a second.

[April Lajoy]

It's so expensive. And it's one thing like you have to get like, if you are going to die or get this surgery, you're going to get the surgery no matter how much it's going to cost you. And a lot of times it costs you way more than you can afford.

[Tim Whitaker]

And again, we have to emphasize it does not have to be this way. This is not like, oh, we don't have the money to do this? We absolutely do. We're just choosing not to. It's wild. Okay, next slide. Okay. This is crazy.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or the cfpb, which under President Joe Biden tried to remove medical debt from credit reports, yesterday published a rule to make sure states cannot stop companies from including such debt on credit reports. And you know who made that decision?

[Tim Whitaker]

Who?

[April Lajoy]

Russell Watt, one of the. One of the authors of Project 2025.

[Tim Whitaker]

Ding, ding, ding. This is what we tried to warn people about when, when we saw Project 2025, when we tried to tell you about. About Russell Vault. This is exactly what we're talking about. Again, this is intentional. Everything you're seeing that's happening with snap, benefits being cut, health care premiums going up, medical debt now being added to. To your. Your credit report is intentional because they want to break the system down and then they want to remake it into their Christian nationalist white supremacist utopia. And that's not hyperbole. That is what is happening. Keep that in mind.

[April Lajoy]

And if families are bankrupt and starving and desperate, they're less likely to fight back or they're less likely to have the energy to realize how terrible this administration is because they are literally just trying to survive.

[Tim Whitaker]

You are just. Exactly. You're just too distracted.

[April Lajoy]

Okay, so Heather Cox Richardson continues.

[Tim Whitaker]

So.

[April Lajoy]

So just as the government stops addressing food insecurity and as healthcare costs skyrocket, the administration permits credit reporting agencies to put medical debt back onto people's credit scores, even if state laws say they can't. This is happening as higher costs, economic uncertainty and increased use of AI mean hiring is slow and jobs are disappearing across the economy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Amazon's laying off like 30,000 workers right before the holidays. Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Next slide, the Republicans budget reconciliation bill of July. The law they call the One Big Beautiful Bill act cut more than $1 trillion from Medicaid and made dramatic changes to SNAP, including cuts of $187 billion from SNAP over 10 years. Crucially, the Republicans designed those cuts to go into effect after the 2026 midterm elections. We've talked about this before.

[Tim Whitaker]

Diabolical.

[April Lajoy]

These cut people, families are going to suffer from that big beautiful bill which we warned people about when it was being voted on. And they are diabolically not putting those cuts into place until after the midterms when. When people have already voted, which in some way, like a part of me is glad because that's a little let. Like the suffering is postponed a little bit. But also. Yeah, it's just so deceptive.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Lajoy]

But their refusal to extend the premium tax credits and in the government shutdown has given Americans an early taste of what those changes will mean.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's it. The end.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, but you're absolutely correct. I, I can we also point out, and this is, this is tied to something bigger, wealth distribution and how it's been happening over the past couple decades. I have a couple graphs here that I think is just really worth pointing out. This is the income gains at the, this is a chart for those who can't see it of just the different income gain income gains among different percentiles. Regarding the, you know, top 1%, next 19%, middle 60% and bottom 20%. This chart shows a clear direction that the top 1% have drastically increased their income while the the next 19, 60 and 20. Sure, we've seen gains which you would want to see as inflation rises, but not nearly enough to keep up with inflation, as we all know and not anywhere near a competitive rate as the top 1%. That's a huge piece. The other big thing is US wealth distribution. Again, you know, I don't, it's so weird. Like you become, I'm not sure about you, but I did not set out to become a bleeding heart liberal, so to speak. According to some, some of my, you know, friends and family who I love dearly. I just started reading data and I was like, wait a second. If the top 50% own 98% of the US wealth and the bottom 50 only owns 2%, something feels real weird about that. I don't care how hard you're working, how many jobs you're working, that disparity is a massive. And it breaks down even more. The top 1%, that's 1.3 million households own $49.2 trillion. That's a third of all U.S. wealth. And you can even break it down even further. About half of that 49 trillion is owned by the top 0.1%. So 136,000 households own 40. About what, 20, is that like 28? I can't do math today. Something like that 28% or a trillion dollars of wealth. And then as you go down, the bottom 20% only own 2% of the wealth. The middle owns 67% but that's representing 66.2 million households. Okay. Compared to 1.3 of the top 1% and the bottom 50% owns are 66.6 million households and they only own 2%. Something is wrong. Like again, this is so beyond free markets and capitalism and well if you have a good idea, you can make it. There is something. The system is rigged in a way where a very select few amount of people are hoarding the majority of America's wealth. And guess what? It ain't trickling down. It ain't working. I'm not feeling it. Are you feeling it? I don't think any one of us is feeling it, but we're watching Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, and these billionaires and their corporations suck up trillions of dollars from the working class. Right? Most of these Americans are employed and they're working and they're making poverty wages. The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation in the past, like, couple decades. The last time it was raised, it was raised federally was 2009 to get ready a whopping $7.25 an hour. That's the federal US minimum wage right now in America. Is that a joke?

[April Lajoy]

You know, the propaganda is working when people in the bottom 50% are more upset with fellow people in the bottom 50% for being on SNAP than they are the top 1% that's hoarding all of that wealth.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, I, this is fresh on my mind because I just finished typing up a substack post about this exact thing, and I said in, in the post, I said, it's really brilliant that these billionaires have convinced white evangelicals who supposedly worship an unhoused poor immigrant named Jesus to essentially become free advertisements or free, you know, mouthpieces for their propaganda that actually hurts them. That's what, that's what's so insidious. Right. Many, many white people are middle and lower class, and they still believe this lie, that SNAP benefits are the real problem with America. It's not the corporate subsidies. It's not the fact that we have a major wealth gap disparity that has been intentionally designed by people in government. Right. They don't see it. They think that, that, that some person down the street who gets like 200 bucks a month in SNAP benefits is the problem with America.

[April Lajoy]

I know. It's the Upside Down.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Lajoy]

Holy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, it's. I believe that as a former conservative evangelical. Guilty as charged. Like, I espouse that nonsense. It's crazy. It's.

[April Lajoy]

Well, speaking of nonsense, you want to play this video by Mike Johnson?

[Tim Whitaker]

I love your segues. You're so good at it. That's how we work so well together. I'm like, where do we go? Not to fear. April's gonna pull us right back into where we need to be. So.

[April Lajoy]

This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. If you're shopping while working, eating, or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers, do they get the brands they love, savings and cash back. And you can get it, too. Stack sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing savings. It's easy to use and you get cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. The brands you love pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers, and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R A K u t e n rakuten.com hey everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Actually, while I'm doing that, can I just make an announcement about our mutual aid fund? Before I forget that.

[April Lajoy]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Because we're going to do this. So, friends, a lot of you know this, maybe some of you don't, but this show is produced by the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit organization that I founded, now being led by the wonderful Melinda Hale as our executive director. And. And she had a really great idea to start A mutual aid fund for people who are going to be affected by these SNAP cuts. So two things I want to bring up really briefly. First off, where is it we are doing a mutual aid fund where if you are someone who is being impacted by SNAP benefits being cut, you can apply to get a $100 grocery gift card. You can go to thenewevangelicals.com support you scroll down a little bit until you see this text here on the screen. Hit apply, follow through and we'll do our best to fulfill that request. If you are someone who maybe has some money and you want to help support this mutual aid fund, go to the same link thenewevangelicals.com support go down on the left hand side. You'll see this little screen here. Choose your designation for tne mutual aid. Make a donation and that money will go to someone in need who is feeling the effects of these SNAP benefits. As a nonprofit, all donations are tax deductible. Um, and that's what makes not only this show but all of our resources and spaces completely paywall free. And in particular your donation, if you choose to, will be used for the mutual aid fund. So we're really trying to help people where we can as well and do our part despite being so infuriated that this MAGA Christian nationalist government is intentionally doing this to the least of these. So like I said, thenewevangelicals.com support if you want to apply to be a recipient of the mutual aid fund or if you want to donate and help us fund the mutual aid fund.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, and I do think that should be an append comment on YouTube. If you're on YouTube.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's also in our description as well.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Lajoy]

Mike Johnson.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mike Johnson. Okay, here's a, here's a little clip and we'll get into it on Saturday. This gets very real. SNAP benefits will stop flowing to all those who need it. You're talking about tens of millions of Americans at risk of going hungry if the Senate Democrats can continue the scam it instead of taking simple vote to fund the government, which Senate Democrats have now had more than a dozen opportunities to do. Democrat attorneys general are suing the federal government to try to compel SNAP benefits to flow despite the government being closed and despite the fact that there is.

[April Lajoy]

No money to do that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Congress hasn't authorized that. The contingency fund for that was something they batted down when the Democrats decided.

[April Lajoy]

To vote against the CR and shut the government.

[Tim Whitaker]

For Democrats, there's a much easier option on the Table.

[April Lajoy]

Just go do your job and fully.

[Tim Whitaker]

Fund all these programs and all these categories of people by voting for the cr. That's it. You don't have to do anything for Republicans. Just do your job for your constituents.

[April Lajoy]

If they vote for that bill that he's talking about, millions of Americans lose health insurance.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. And I love him saying there is no money for it. There's no money. We just don't have the money. Sorry, guys. Can we give 40 billion to Argentina during the shutdown? Sure. Can we find money?

[April Lajoy]

They don't have the money.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can we find money to fund ice? Sure.

[April Lajoy]

Oh my gosh.

[Tim Whitaker]

We can do that. But. Oh, wait. Pay SNAP benefits. Guys, I'm sorry, We, we, as the world's richest nation with the biggest military budget in the world, we just cannot find a few billion dollars to fund it. We're broke. What can I say?

[April Lajoy]

We're broke.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, did you know, April, that the deficit, the deficit is skyrocketing under Trump right now? It is. It's like hundreds of billions of dollars like a month. It's something crazy. It is so wild hearing about fiscal responsibility and how we can't be in crazy debt and then these same people adding on to our national debt in like a record setting amount. I'll look it up to fact check that as we're going on to our next point. But, but that's the thing that we didn't mention that needs to be said during this conversation.

[April Lajoy]

Well, Republicans, historically speaking speaking, have been about balancing the budget and, and lowering spending. Like that was what they railed against Obama for. And then I'm pretty sure Trump ended up spending more than like increase the debt more than Obama did.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. It's crazy. Um, anyway, yeah, so Mike Johnson says, hey, it's. I'm going to summarize it. It's the Democrats faults. They, they won't pass this funding bill that we have ready to go. We have no money for SNAP benefits. It's all their fault. But Chuck Schumer, who is kind of mid for me, actually came out swinging on this one. So I think it props for where. Where props are due. And I want to play this response by Chuck. It's about maybe a minute and a half here. He kind of goes through the whole thing as reporters ask him this question. I think it's a very compelling series of answers. So check this out.

[April Lajoy]

Perspective of the dispute on whether USDA contingency funds can be used for snap.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is not. Wait a minute.

[April Lajoy]

Excuse me.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is not a dispute.

[April Lajoy]

It Is fact.

[Tim Whitaker]

They can use it. And the Republicans say it, okay, but.

[April Lajoy]

There'S, you know, only 5 or 6 billion, and that cost 8 billion monthly just to administer. I mean, if anything, it would only last.

[Tim Whitaker]

It does not cost 5 or 6 billion to administer. There's enough money to start feeding people right away. Six billion's a lot of money. And they're using it for other things. 20 billion for Argentina, hundreds of millions for Kristi Noem's plane. Who are we kidding here? Yes.

[April Lajoy]

Once it runs out, it only lasts two, three weeks. Your Democrats fold.

[Tim Whitaker]

Then the bottom line is they can fund it, just as in 2019, just as in other shutdowns for a long period of time.

[April Lajoy]

They also the contingency fund, which is $6 billion, which gets you nearly a month. Three weeks runs out, then they can pass Senator Lujan or Senator Hawley's bill, both of which we support. We know that there'll be 60 votes for that. Why aren't they calling it up? They're not calling it up because the.

[Tim Whitaker]

House isn't here to pass it.

[April Lajoy]

That's the way it works. The House would have to come here. They probably would have to vote on the Epstein file. But they're choosing to let kids go hungry instead of having to vote on the Epstein files.

[Tim Whitaker]

There's no doubt about it.

[April Lajoy]

They, they have been out for six weeks on vacation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Just think if they have all this money for Argentina and all this money for other things, they have enough money to keep funding snap and they know it. And I just want to say what Lujan said. Johnson just lies. He lied about on immigration, on the undocumented. He's lying about this. He just outright lies, plain and simple. It is not illegal, and his own president has done it.

[April Lajoy]

There was a shutdown and Trump's first term that they were able to still fund SNAP because there's a contingency fund for that. And Republicans are lying that they can't use it for that, because they can.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want to. I want to cite the Hill here and read this. This is from a source here. So according to Representative Rosa Deloro out of Connecticut, the. The contingency funding that we set aside for SNAP is not optional spending. It is required by law. The senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee told reporters in the Capitol. We appropriated that money for this purpose. The White House must spend it. She added, and what they are doing right now, blocking these funds from going out is illegal. The U.S. department of Agriculture, which oversees SNAP, you know, the same webpage that's now blaming Democrats for this had initially said that the administration is legally obligated to pay SNAP benefits in the event of a shutdown. But last week, the department reversed course, saying the contingency fund is reserved for emergencies like natural disasters, not the current shutdown, which it blamed on Democrats. In that light, the agency said it's not withholding the money that would be illegal, but spending it. So, I mean, again, like this, this part is true. Even the USDA admitted we have to spend this money. Congress appropriated this money to be spent for a time like this. This administration is refusing to do that. And Mike Johnson's out here lying through his teeth trying to pretend that there isn't any kind of money or there's no creative ways. Right. To figure it out. These are the same people who have folks who are saying on camera, like Steve Bannon, we're working on Trump being able to run for a third term. They are creative when they want to be. They will figure out things when they want to. They will work around the system. They will figure out loopholes when they want to. If they wanted SNAP fully funded, they would make it happen. They're choosing not to. Full stop.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. Because as Klobuchar mentioned in that clip, there are two bills that have been proposed that can cover SNAP during the shutdown. One was introduced by Luhan, and one was actually introduced by Republican Josh Hawley. This is crazy, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Because Josh Hawley is the guy who gave the fist pump to the January 6th insurrectionists. This is a Christian nationalist. Okay. Make no mistake. But go ahead, April. Sorry, I didn't interrupt, but this shocked me.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. So Josh Hawley has put together the Keep SNAP funded Act of 2025 that would fund the food aid program for states across the country until the government shutdown ends. And then I think Luhan Lujan's bill is basically similar, only it would also cover wic, which is like health insurance for women, infants and children and some food stuff. And then I think Luhan's bill also would have the federal government reimburse states that covered it on their own. I think those are the main two differences in the bill. But as you heard her say they would did Democrats would support either of those bills.

[Tim Whitaker]

Democrats support Josh Hawley's bill.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. Why are they not bringing people in to vote on this bill? I think Amy Klobuchar said it perfectly. The frickin Epstein files.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep, yep. They've been withholding this vote for a long time. Was it Mike Johnson trying to, like, with. Trying to not confirm? Was it A senator or a congressperson, I think from Arizona that was like elected or something like that. And because if that actually, if she got confirmed, it was enough votes to bring that bill that would release the Epstein files to the floor and get passed. Right. And so this is a, this is.

[April Lajoy]

Crazy because they have enough votes now, as soon as the House comes back into session, they have enough votes to release all of the Epstein files.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, the ones that there's something.

[April Lajoy]

Damning in that for them to be. They're literally going to let children starve so that they don't have to release the Epstein files. And honestly, there's a piece of me, I don't know how you feel. There's a piece of me that's worried that they may not ever come back.

[Tim Whitaker]

What, SNAP benefits?

[April Lajoy]

No, the shutdown. Like they might. They're going to prolong this for as long as possible.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think I. They have, they have every incentive to. Right, let's think about the data. Christian nationalists are not in the majority. They're in the minority. Christian nationalists do not believe in democratic norms. They don't believe in doing the will of the people broadly. They believe in their high control version of Christian supremacy. That where they have a divine calling to rule over America. Any chance they have to chip away at America's institutions and systems that they think are secular or are woke or are evil or are demonic, they are going to do. And as you and I said a couple minutes ago, we grew up in this world, we heard it often, right, that government handouts create nanny states in our Marxists and are terrible. So I'm not, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they want to prolong this because they want these systems to be gutted. Again, like we have to understand, this is not a bug. This is a feature of Christian nationalism. They don't want people on any kind of government help. They don't want to rein in big business. They don't care that the ultra rich are only getting richer. That's all part of the plan for them. That's all part of the plan. And when it comes to protecting children, they don't give a shit. Because look at the Epstein files, right? We have a situation where one of the most famous and prolific pedophiles of our generation of our lifetime, arguably, who had all kinds of ties to all kinds of people, right? Had journals, notebooks, diaries, birthday guest books. Our commander in chief was best friends with that man at one point and we know him.

[April Lajoy]

A birthday note of exactly. Of a naked woman that's right.

[Tim Whitaker]

And we. We know from Trump's own Pam Bondi that he is in the files. Okay, now, to be clear, I don't care if Kamala Harris is in the files, if Joe Biden's in the files. I don't care if John freaking Stewart from the Daily Shows in the files. Release the freaking files, because I don't give a crap about what you believe or who you are, what side of the aisle you're on. If you're in these files and there's damning evidence about you, I want to know. But for these Christian nationalists, they don't think about that because it's not about integrity. It's not about values. It's about power and control. And they know if they release these files and Trump is in them in some damning way, it could be damaging. Not to their base. Look, April, let's not get it twisted. White evangelicals are gonna support Trump no matter what, and we know that. We know that even from current data. Right. New polling has come out, so 76% of white evangelicals support the job that Trump has been doing over the past six months. And white Catholics and Protestants are not far behind. And that's with people knowing that he's in the Epstein files, even though they haven't been released. So that part's not going to change. But to the general population or, you know, the general populace, it's absolutely going to be a damning indictment on who Trump is. So, yeah, there's a lot of incentive for them to prolong this, to not bring anything to the House floor to vote on, because there's a lot of shit in his closet that they're hiding.

[April Lajoy]

I mean, here's the thing. If I was innocent, and if my name was in the files as a innocent person, I would want them released. Just saying.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course. Hey, friends, while you're here, thanks again for tuning in live. It really means the world. We love going live. It's so much fun. If you are watching on YouTube, please, please make sure to give this video a like, it costs you absolutely nothing, and it will help get it out to more people on YouTube. If you're on Substack and you're watching. First off, hello. We are a little bit newer to the Lincoln Square media family, as we are being now broadcast on their substack. Please give. You give this video a heart. Is that what you do on substack? You hit the little heart button, Hearts fly up like crazy. If you can do that, that would be great. If you want to restack this post. Yeah. Is that the language these days? Restack, I believe that would be awesome. And of course, if you're listening on podcasts tomorrow on or on Friday, make sure to follow the show and give this episode a rating and a review. All those things really help get this kind of stuff out to more and more people. And frankly, April and I are very passionate about helping people understand Christian nationalism and how it is behind so much of what's happening in our politics today. We go live every Thursday at 12 o' clock Eastern and we release a pre recorded episode and every Tuesday on podcasts and YouTube so you can find us on all of those channels. Last thing I want to just reiterate is that we are doing a mutual aid fund with the New Evangelicals, the organization that sponsors and produces this show. Melinda Hale, our executive director, had a great idea to start a mutual aid fund for people who are going to be losing benefits, SNAP benefits when they run out. So what you can do is if you want to help be a part of this and actually fund the. The mutual aid fund. You can go to thenewevangelicals.com support, tap on the donate button, choose your, your designation for TNE mutual aid, make a donation. It's tax deductible, of course, and that will go to funding it. If you want to apply, you can go to the same website, thenewevangelicals.com support, click on apply here. Just scroll down until you see this text that's on the screen. The Mutual aid fund. And we will get back to you as soon as we can. We want to do our part to love our neighbors as much as we're able to by helping them in times where a Christian nationalist regime is intentionally targeting the least of these. Which is why we do this work. We fully stand against it.

[April Lajoy]

Absolutely. That was a.

[Tim Whitaker]

But I did it.

[April Lajoy]

That was a mouthful. Well, there. Oh, do you want to go to commercial?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Is that where they're at?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Okay, let's take a little break. We'll take a little break and we'll come back in a few minutes. If I had the right button here. Is it this one? I don't know. Without doubt.

[April Lajoy]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne. We're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real tangible ways as a nonprofit organization, not Only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement. Hi, my name is Taniska and I'm from Denver, Colorado. I'm also a really proud T and E donor. But what brought me to TNE is the ability to be in a space where I can ask good, hard questions about my faith and not feel judged and also feel spurred on to ask even more questions and to sit in my own maybe discomfort and also to make space for nuance. So I love TNA and I'm proud to be a supporter.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, we're back.

[April Lajoy]

That was a good commercial. That's the first time I've watched that all the way through.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow, that's rude. I only been playing for the past month. Yeah, same, same. Yeah, it's a good commercial. Melinda got that together and had someone edit it. It came out really good. It was kind of her vision. And yeah, it's. It's, you know, we're celebrating five years of the new evangelicals this year. I started the organization really by accident in December of 2020. It's been a very cool journey and I really enjoy doing the work with the team. I love doing the Tim and April show. It's honestly a privilege to do it, you know, so. Been life changing.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, well, yeah, go support the new evangelicals. How about we talk about some old evangelicals? There was this.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sorry, I got, I. I got to take the show more seriously. I will not laugh anymore at your segues because they're just so good. They're so good.

[April Lajoy]

No, Well, I kind of laugh too, because old is in like former, not old as an age, but maybe that too. I don't know. So there is this Axios article. Well, this is not Axios, but Axios released it initially. I think that says that some evangelicals are quietly quitting maga.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Yep. According to Raw Story, I think they kind of like reposted this. Large numbers of evangelicals and Catholic churches are quiet quitting President Donald Trump and leaving maga, hoping to avoid isolating people who are still devotees but are descent are distancing themselves from The President's aggressive immigration policies and remarks according to Axios. Hmm. Do you believe this? I gotta ask, do you believe this?

[April Lajoy]

I do. I actually really do.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, tell me more.

[April Lajoy]

Okay, I think one the really loud MAGA supporters right now, like, I don't know if you've seen the videos of some MAGA Christians literally just kind of making fun of people that are on SNAP and losing it and being really condescending about it. I think, okay, well, they, they're there, but I do think the loudest MAGA Christians are the minority in this movement. I think your average everyday evangelical might be a little more apolitical than we realize. You know, they vote Republican because they're always been told to vote Republican, but I don't know how aware they are. But I think as more and more of these terrible ICE videos are out there, of them just kidnapping people off the streets and in school pickup lines and, you know, beating up on women and the elderly. As more and more of those videos surface and I see like at least one video a day, and that's without me looking for it, I think more and more people are going to quietly realize, okay, I don't think Trump's a good person.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, can I play bad cop here? Yeah, I, I don't like talking like this. I have a hard time buying that this will make any real dent long term. First off, we, we do have data on this. I mean, we, we do know. Is it. Did I pull it up? But I did. Maybe I'll pull up the slide.

[April Lajoy]

Was it the. This is it 73% of white evangelicals still.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes.

[April Lajoy]

I mean, but, but that is down from 81% that it was earlier in the year.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so 5. A 5% drop.

[April Lajoy]

Okay, math, 73 and 81.

[Tim Whitaker]

76. It's 76. Oh, okay, I'm sorry. Look, I, I'm, I tend to be a numbers guy. Let me pull up the, the actual data thing. I have it right here. Just drag this bad boy. Boop. There it is. So look, this is from pri. I trust the reporting. I've had them. I've had people from, from their org on the show. They really track Christian nationalism really well. White evangelical Protestants, 76% strongly or somewhat approve of the job Donald Trump is doing as president. Now maybe we can split hairs and say, well, which part strongly approves versus somewhat approves? Look, it doesn't matter because it's, it's along racial lines. It is white evangelical Protestants at 76%. White mainline, not evangelical Protestants at 57%. Tied with white Catholics with 57%. Hispanic Protestants, 50%, they're split. But Hispanic Catholics only, 28%. Black Protestants, 22%. And then of course, along the Christian nationalist line, adherence of Christian nationalism, 77%. I, I, I, I don't not want to have hope, and I always want to have an open arm to people who want to change their mind. Okay, don't misunderstand me. I don't want to shame people. I've changed my mind. You've changed your mind. People who are watching this live stream have changed their mind. That's the way you change society, right? Is that you do shift people's perspectives on things. I don't want to downplay that. I want to celebrate any glimmer of hope that we can get. But I also need people to not be fooled into thinking that, that because someone doesn't like Trump, that means that suddenly they would vote differently than they normally vote. You and I know how deeply embedded you were taught that the only way to vote as a Christian is to vote for a Republican. That's the only way. I mean, even when, look, when I was, when Trump, to give people a personal example of this, when the leaked Hollywood Access tapes came out of Trump bragging about grabbing women, I voted third party, knowing it wouldn't make an impact. I couldn't vote for Hillary. Still, it was so ingrained in my psyche that I couldn't vote for a Democrat, clearly. But I can't vote for the guy bragging about grabbing women. So I guess I'll go a third party. And so I'm just saying, like, don't misunderstand this article as a sign of, like, well, maybe, maybe next time, you know, all these white evangelicals will have a come to Jesus moment. There's still a lot of work to do to undermine the systems and perspectives and propaganda that they hear day in and day out about why the Democrats are evil. They're Marxists, they hate America, they hate God, they hate you. I mean, this is what you're taught, because I was taught this by Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, et cetera.

[April Lajoy]

So, yeah, but it's a good step. We need people to lose. Stop supporting Trump first. Like, it is unrealistic to think that in a short period of time you can get people from being die hard Republican and Trump supporters to being blue, no matter who. You know what I mean? Like, that's a, they're not going to, there's so much indoctrination to go from that to where we are today. It took US years to unlearn so much indoctrination, but we still did it. And I, I don't like, I think we take the small wins where we can. Is that, is it a huge number going from 81% to 76%?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

No. But that's still 5% of white evangelicals that are no longer drinking the Kool Aid and believe that Donald Trump is some sort of savior. And that 5% is still in that community with the other 76%. And a lot of times it takes someone, you know to tell you something as opposed to hearing it from, you know, me and you on a YouTube show or hearing it from some Democrat. So I, I think. Is it going to change everything tomorrow? No. Is it a step in the right direction?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, I think that's fair. I think this is my own bias coming out. It's my own cynicism coming out. And frankly, there is something, I'm sure someone in the chat will give me the official term, but there is something about when you were the thing that you now despise, you tend to be much harsher towards that thing, right? Like, I was that person who was all in, in these different ways. And so I think that there's kind of a self projection too, of my own disappointment in myself and just like, how I was duped by this stuff that you end up, like, projecting it on other people or other people groups. And so I, I, I, I want to hold space for that, for that. April, because you're right. I mean, progress takes time. It's not overnight. And you're correct. I mean, even when I started the new evangelicals, I wasn't fully affirming yet. I was on the path. But there was these verses in the back of my head that, that would come up, like, well, the Bible says this, like, like, like, like my heart was there, right? My heart was fully affirming. But the brain had to get rewired because I had these Bible verses that popped up that were like, no, you can't really be fully affirming because this Bible verse, right? And that took time to undo. At the same time, I think this, like, sense of injustice that I see is so great, especially now watching what ICE is doing over and over. I mean, it's just wild to me, like, what is happening. The fact that it's already normalized in what, eight months, nine months, that our military is being used against citizens, that ICE is being funded to the max and just dropping in on schools and churches and busting out car windows, no due process no Miranda rights being read, racially being profiled, including American citizens being arrested and hurt and victimized. I think I just have a lot of resentment and anger at my tradition that taught me to have empathy for my neighbor. I mean, again, even my conservative upbringing taught me that Hitler was bad.

[April Lajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

No. Or that, like, we need to love our neighbor as herself. I think I wrestle with that part.

[April Lajoy]

Frankly, and I think that's fair. I mean, I. I'm angry at fellow Christians very often. It's. It's hard to not be angry. It's. It's honestly hard to be aware in the world right now and not be angry, because there are so many injustices happening at the same time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

That. It's. It's hard to even know where to put that energy. But, you know, I think people can change. You and I changed. It took time. And as much as it's frustrating that it took them this long and this many terrible things Trump's done to get to this point, I'm going to say welcome. Welcome to the resistance. We need everyone that we can get, even if it's small. And the reason why I think they're quietly quitting, too, and we've pointed this out, is that a lot of times, your whole community, your livelihood, when you're in this world, is dependent on you holding those same beliefs. And in Christian nationalism and white evangelicalism, your political ideology and your theology are so intertwined that they become one and the same. So if you start questioning political things and Trump, everything else is open to also being questioned. And so you get demonized if you say these things out loud because suddenly, oh, you're on the slippery slope. You ask too many questions, you're going to wake up, you know, a radical leftist and, you know, an atheist going to hell.

[Tim Whitaker]

And, you know, I'm not an atheist.

[April Lajoy]

But I am left, you know, So, I mean, yeah, there's some truth to the slippery slope, because once you pull the string, everything that you believe that actually doesn't make sense and goes against the teachings of Jesus unravels.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

You know, and it's. That's hard for some people to swallow. And I'm just. If people are willing to swallow that pill and to realize that they were, you know, causing harm that whole time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

More power to them, because that. That is tough. It is really hard to leave that world.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

When you are indoctrinated, and especially from birth, like as a child and every loved one, you know, your parents, your pastors, your teachers, sometimes you're homeschooled like everybody you've ever met, believes the exact same things you do. It is hard to leave that world because a lot of times that means losing everybody you've ever loved.

[Tim Whitaker]

Ask us how we know. Yeah, maybe I can read this briefly. I. I'm not going to say who, but someone that I really respect, a very prominent figure in Christianity, texted me today, and I'm going to read a little segment of what he said. I think it actually applies to this. And maybe we can play that Kirk Cameron video. That might actually be good news. But he said again, I'm keeping him anonymous because I haven't gotten permission to share this publicly. He said in part of a message to me this morning, my father once said, it is the job of each generation to do good in the time God has allotted with the gifts they have been given, to place one brick, not multiple bricks, upon the unfinished cathedral of human flourishing. If you choose to do good with the time and gifts you have been given, seven generations from now, a generation will live who looks back to say thank you. I think that's really encouraging because I think a lot of us now, April, I know you feel this too, especially because we've been really honored and privileged to be given a more public platform. Right. Than most other people, where we get to talk to thousands of people and our words are in their ears. But even for folks who don't have that, there is something about. Your job is to place one brick, not multiple, upon the unfinished cathedral of human flourishing. That kind of takes pressure off of me. I'm sure it takes it off of you and people out there like, okay, your job is not to save the entire world. You can't. It's impossible. But how do you contribute to the unfinished cathedral of human flourishing? How do you place one brick on that cathedral? And then how do I rely on my neighbor to place their brick and their brick and their brick? And I think that was just really encouraging to hear from this person, and I want to share it with all of you today. So kind of goes back to what you're saying, April. You know, we have to hold space, and it takes time.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, it does take time.

[Tim Whitaker]

So, speaking of time.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, speaking of time. Let's. Let's take up more time. So Kirk Cameron, who I used to have a crush on when he was Mike Seaver.

[Tim Whitaker]

You did not.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, when he was a teenager on growing paints. He was so cute. I was a kid.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, Well, I, I'm, I, I'm a very straight man. So I, it's just not My thing, you know? But I'm glad that he's okay.

[April Lajoy]

Did you ever watch Growing Pains?

[Tim Whitaker]

No. I watched Family Matters. I watched Home Improvement. Didn't really watch. Oh, Step by Step. Didn't really watch Growing Pains.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, I watched this tube. I. Oh, I loved Growing Pains. You know, Leonardo DiCaprio was also on Growing Pains.

[Tim Whitaker]

No.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

I had no idea. Okay.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. Anyway, Kirk Cameron's come a long way from the rebel Mike Seaver. He once played.

[Tim Whitaker]

He really. He really has.

[April Lajoy]

So he. His sister is Cameron Candace Burr, who's also kind of. The thing about these two is they're very conservative, Christian, and I would say Christian nationalists. I don't think either of them would claim that label, but they've definitely been in the. We need to put God in our governments. Oh.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, Kirk's big thing is touring school libraries to get Drag Queen Story Hour dismantled. I mean, he's very much in the Christian nationalist orbit, for sure.

[April Lajoy]

Yes. So. But we're going to play this video of him kind of calling out Trump, so.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. All right, here we go. Let's do what Kirk has to say. President Trump says he's sending the National Guard to stop violent crime, protect federal agents, and defend cities that seem out of control. He even said that he might invoke the Insurrection Act. That's kind of ironic, right? Remember January 6th, they called that an insurrection. But that Insurrection act is a law that allows a president to deploy the military here on American soil. And it's a power that is extreme. It's meant for true emergencies, like rebellion, like invasion or anarchy, not just everyday unrest. We need to think about tomorrow. If one president can decide who is a threat, what happens when the next president decides that you are? What if a future president, a far left president, declares that Christians, homeschoolers, and conservative voices are domestic extremists, would we have any moral ground left to stand on when those same powers are turned on us?

[April Lajoy]

I mean, I would disagree that they already don't have any moral ground to stand on, but, yes, his point stands. I mean, that's what we've been saying, too. Like, if they can do this to immigrants and not give them any due process and they're just arresting protesters without any due process, they can do that to anybody.

[Tim Whitaker]

A hundred percent. It is, of course, interesting to hear Kirk talk about how, you know a far left president, as if. As if we even ever had a far left president. It's funny, but, I mean, yeah, the chances of them being labeled, that would be unlikely, but he's the principal is right. Hey, if you're gonna use the government in extreme ways, what happens when someone who is not your ally politically does the same thing? Now, April, I really hope that you and I have the moral fortitude and clarity to call that out. If we ever had a president who was on the quote, unquote, left, do what Trump is doing, right? Because we want to care about not turning the military on citizens. We want to care about free speech and stuff. So that's my hope for sure. But Kirk is right, you know, I wouldn't want to vote for someone who would want to do that. That's why I don't like Trump. But maybe it's what you were talking about. It's a little crack in the door. Right? So how do we kind of. Okay, great, we agree. So how do we help Trump get reined in a little bit? Because we don't want this happening with another president in four or eight years from now. That's a good point.

[April Lajoy]

Right, right. You're totally right. Well, do we want to get to our favorite segment?

[Tim Whitaker]

We need to laugh. We need to laugh. Are we doing. Are we going to do the. The twofer? We have to. We have to.

[April Lajoy]

Sure. Yeah, we'll do the twofer.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right. All right.

[April Lajoy]

Let me get the segment for you today.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait, do I have the button where the screen's all messed up? I got it. No, I got it. This should be it.

[April Lajoy]

We Christian. I love that little jingle.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're gonna go Halloween first or not Halloween first?

[April Lajoy]

I don't know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's go non Halloween.

[April Lajoy]

Okay. Yeah. Let's end on Halloween since tomorrow.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, boy. I. I don't know what to say to some of these. This just. It's okay. So this is. Okay, I'm gonna take a second here, because if you're watching maybe on substack, you might have no idea that this exists. And, April, you can fill in the blanks here. There is a segment of Christianity that is called charismatic or something Pentecostal.

[April Lajoy]

My background. If you have any questions, I can answer it for you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Long story short, part of what some people in Pentecostalism believe is that they can, you know, get visions from God. They can see things in the spirit world. There are, like, these different kinds of prophets that some of them make a lot of money touring the US Speaking on behalf of God and giving prophecies to people. This is one of these people. Her name is Kim Robinson, and she's talking on the Elijah Stream, a very Pentecostal channel, which we've pulled from before.

[April Lajoy]

And they have doozies on that show.

[Tim Whitaker]

They do. And this is one of them. This is one of them. I'm gonna play it with no context for the podcast audience, so they have no clue what's coming. I'm just gonna play it and then we will respond.

[April Lajoy]

This morning, when I was praying and going over my notes and, you know, and encounter and, you know, reading this, the Lord showed me that. He showed me Charlie in heaven.

[Tim Whitaker]

Charlie Kirk.

[April Lajoy]

And like I said, I don't know anything about Charlie, so I hope somebody puts in the chat or lets me know if, you know, if this is, you know, what you know about him. But I saw Charlie this morning riding on a horse with Jesus, and Jesus has given him, like, a horse ranch. He has a ranch and he has all these animals. And I just feel like Charlie loved horses. And right now with this, this morning, you know, he was on his, he was on these horses and he was riding in his horse ranch with Jesus. And I'm just like, isn't that amazing?

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. Okay.

[April Lajoy]

One time I dreamed that I played basketball with a chicken. Just thought we were just saying weird dreams we've had.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I had a dream that I missed our live stream and you were mad at me. Remember I told you that off air?

[April Lajoy]

I do remember that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I hope that's more likely to be true, though. I, I can't say I know Charlie Kirk personally. I have met him, but as someone who followed his work and did shake his hand, riding horses never came up in the conversation, as far as I know.

[April Lajoy]

I did a quick Google search.

[Tim Whitaker]

Not a horse rancher.

[April Lajoy]

Charlie Kirk rode horses. And the only thing showing up is this lady talking about it. So I, I don't, I don't know.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, I, I think what makes this so difficult is that this woman is so sincere. She's almost crying. Like, she almost has tears coming down her face because she really believes that she was given a vision of Charlie Kirk riding horses with Jesus. But when and when you're in it, when you're in that world, that's so believable. When you're out of it, you're like, that is batshit crazy. Like, that is wild. That is. I have so many questions. I have. So, so was Jesus white? What? Where do horses, where do horses exist? Exist?

[April Lajoy]

We were spiritual and meaning into everything. Our dreams. Like, you would overthink everything. Like, is this from God? God? But we were also very hypersensitive to demons. Any. Everything was also demonic too. Like, yeah, it's a really exhausting way to live. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Speaking of demonic, that was my attempt.

[April Lajoy]

We do have. We do have a couple super chats we should get to before we forget. And then we have one more weird Christian beep for you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sarah from Tofu Evangelicals wonder why people leave the church while championing these policies that hurt all the folks Jesus told us to help. Crazy. Absolutely. Thank you so much for the super chat.

[April Lajoy]

Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

And from. You don't need to know my name. I am a Christian that grew up in the UMC United Methodist Church. I have. I have an identity crisis in 2016 and became evangelical, but you've helped me deconstruct from that. Ty, thank you so much. That's super, super kind. Oh, one more came in. Joseph Compton. Oh, my gosh. I remember seeing this clip. Charlie Kirk's not. Not where these people think he is. How can anyone think you can act like this and go to heaven? Well, that's for a different discussion, but I understand that. But yeah, so that was the first clip that we wanted to share. Now, speaking of. Everything is demonic. This guy name is Jonathan Cahn. He's written a lot of books about, like, numerology and, you know, the mark of the beast. And this is the dude. This is the guy who gave the prophecy that Donald Trump is a Jehu and Harris will be slaughtered by Jehu. So Jehu in the Bible is a king the. That essentially slaughters his enemies, including their children and their wives. And Jonathan Cahn gave a prophecy that Trump was a modern Je. Who. I covered this with Matthew Taylor on the new Evangelicals podcast. You can go back and watch it on our tne podcast channel. But that's who this is for context. And he's talking about Halloween. I wonder if he'll be okay.

[April Lajoy]

Lovely.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's find out.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're sending your children out to celebrate a holiday that focuses on evil, darkness, witches and spirits. Death. To likely dress up as evil creatures, go to the houses of strangers, commit extortion or vandalism and then get diabetes.

[April Lajoy]

What?

[Tim Whitaker]

Vandalism to diabetes pipeline.

[April Lajoy]

I don't know how many kids show up to your door and just commit extortion. What are you talking about?

[Tim Whitaker]

You don't hear the extortion in that. Trick or treat, you know?

[April Lajoy]

Oh, I guess the trick if they choose. Trick.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, extortion. And they get robbed. That's. That's. That's the trick. I'm gonna rob you unless you give me a treat and then get diabetes. What? What?

[April Lajoy]

Because they eat candy?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is. This is A short clip. Can we hear it one more time? Because it's just a doozy stretch here. Yeah. You're sending your children out to celebrate a holiday that focuses on evil, darkness, witches, spirits, death, to likely dress up as evil creatures, go to the houses of strangers, commit extortion or vandalism, and then get diabetes.

[April Lajoy]

Now, honestly, this sounds like a personal story. I feel like Jonathan Cahn had some kind of weird Halloween night where someone committed extortion on him and. Okay, maybe he got diabetes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait a second. Hold on.

[April Lajoy]

Somehow, I don't know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hold on, hold on. I. I just made a major connection.

[April Lajoy]

Oh, hold on.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think I understand if this is correct. Yes. Okay, okay, okay, okay. I. I have a theory here. This is. This is deep east coast lore. I'm gonna give people. Okay.

[April Lajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Jonathan Khan grew up in New York, North Jersey, in Wayne. New Jersey. New Jersey, my state, is one of the few areas that has Mischief Night. Do you have Mischief Night, April, where you are?

[April Lajoy]

No.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you know what Mischief Night is?

[April Lajoy]

I have no idea what that is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. All right, buckle up. We got another hour. No, I'm just kidding. Mischief Night is. Is. Is a very. It's a night before Halloween where kids do pranks on houses. You might TP a house or you might, like, do some kind of, like, mischief. Okay. It's a thing that happens in the East Coast. Now, I will say these days it's very rare. Like, I mean, it never doesn't happen in my neck of the woods anyway anymore. But Jonathan Cahn could be referring to Mischief Night as the vandalism part, because that does happen. Really? People will do things sometimes more extreme that could be considered that, of course, again, very rare. But, yes, Mischief Night is a thing. Yes. And in Michigan, they call it Devil's Night. Yes, this. This is like a very unique thing, only in certain parts of the country. And I did hear that Jonathan Khan grew up in New Jersey, so I had to look that up. That is the thing. Yep.

[April Lajoy]

Interesting.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Still doesn't explain the extortion, though.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, it doesn't. I'm trying to do my due diligence here, you know, to, like, really understand.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, well, that gave some context. Can I just say, as a former Pentecostal, I mean, I don't know if you ever stop being Pentecostal. I could be a little woo woo sometimes, but as someone who was raised Pentecostal and was very fundy and evangelical.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

I'm so glad that I don't have to get in the annual debate on whether or Not Christians can celebrate Halloween.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Lajoy]

Like, it was always so exhausting. I'm just so excited that I can just, for my kids, we can just go celebrate Halloween. And it's just not even a thing. Like, oh, no, is a demon going to come through the skeleton in my neighbor's lawn?

[Tim Whitaker]

My kids dressed up as Spider man and Lightning McQueen. So I wouldn't call that exactly demonic.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, this is the graph that I always share with people. So there's an article from Medium. It says, what do you call the night before Halloween? The majority of the US which is labeled red, says, I have no word for this. Then there's New Jersey in blue Mischief Night. And then you have a little piece in Michigan that is Devil's Night. So, like I said, this is a very unique thing. And I'm probably being way too charitable to Jonathan Khan at this point, like, overly charitable, but I do think that's what that is. And I have a chat here from someone in South Jersey. Hey, I'm also in south jersey. Hello. Ms. Chip night is legend. Yeah. So there's. The east coast has a lot of lore, man. There's a lot of New Jersey. Lord. Yeah, I can be here all day. Well, I learned New Jersey.

[April Lajoy]

I have never heard of that. I was too busy going to hallelujah night.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, well, we. We just had harvest festivals here. Now it's tr. Right, That's. That. That's all the rage. So anyway, friends, I mean, wow, what an episode. April, we covered a lot of ground as always, and we're going to end, what, maybe 40 minutes, 20 minutes earlier than usual, so that's good. Yeah, I know you're. Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Look at us. Look at us. I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Friends, if you are looking for a place to land and a place to call home, maybe you're like me in April, trying to find a better path forward. I really recommend joining TNE Connect. It's our private community that you can access either on the Internet via web browser or its own app on Apple, the Apple Store, or Google Play Store. It's totally free to join. There's a lot of people in there. I think 4,000 right now. And we have tons of free resources that we do. Theology 101, private conversations. We start our book club tonight. We're going through Kathryn Stewart's book, Money Lies in God. Okay. Katherine Stewart is the best. We're going through her book. And you can get all of this on TNE Connect. You go to the new evangelicals.com connect. You sign up. It is totally Free. Everything the new evangelicals does, everything is paywall free. So everything inside the app is paywall free. This is not a paid ad. This is not an ad to get you to pay for something you can sign up. It's totally free. It's a great place to find like minded people. The app and the website are really well done and, and we're only building out more things for 2026, so I'm super pumped about that. Last thing I do want to reiterate before we get ready to sign off is we are doing a mutual aid fund for people who are struggling with SNAP benefits being SNAP benefits being taken away from them. You can go to the newevangelicals.comsupport to sign up to get a $100 grocery gift card or if you want to help be part of the funding of this, you can go to the same website thenewevangelicals.com support and then choose to designate a donation to the mutual aid fund. All of those donations will go to helping people in need. There's no administrative fee. There's no nothing off the top that that tne takes. It goes right to other people. And your donation is tax deductible because we are a nonprofit. So please keep that stuff in mind. We exist to help people find a better path forward in their faith and this show is one of the many ways that we do it. So yeah, that's all I got for this one.

[April Lajoy]

All right, well join us again next Thursday or you can catch our pre recorded episodes that we do every. We'll drop Every Tuesday on YouTube or podcast. Give us a like, give us a review if you like us go like us review us on Spotify or Apple and like our subscribe on YouTube. Whatever. I'm losing my words now. I think it's time to leave.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. If you're watching on Substack, let Lincoln Square people know you like the show. That helps us know that. That this audience is a big fan. So. All right, well April, you feel better. And I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Lajoy]

Thank you. And I'm April A joy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Goodbye. Happy Halloween.

[April Lajoy]

Happy Halloween.