66. We're Gobbling Up that Mamdani & Trump Meeting

Summary

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The Tim & April Show – Episode 66: We're Gobbling Up that Mamdani & Trump Meeting

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Date: November 26, 2025
Theme: Unraveling Faith, Politics, and Culture from a Progressive Christian Lens

Episode Overview

In this special "Friendsgiving" live edition, Tim and April dive into the head-spinning political developments of the week—including the jaw-dropping meeting between newly elected NYC Mayor Zoran Mamdani and President Trump. As always, they bring a mix of humor, honesty, and deep reflection to dissecting seismic shifts on the American political and faith landscapes.

The hosts also cover the explosive reaction to Democratic lawmakers urging the military to resist illegal orders and Trump's authoritarian response. The second half features an extended Q&A with live audience questions on deconstruction, family, Christian music, Thanksgiving food, and more. They round it out by reviewing the "We Are Charlie Kirk" viral AI song and its cringeworthy cult of personality implications.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Quick Thanksgiving Life Update & Travel Chat

(03:16–10:50)

• Lighthearted banter: Tim and April riff about the exhaustion and anxiety of prepping for Thanksgiving travel with kids, family, and unpredictable weather.
• Relatability: “I thought that was only me… I can’t sleep in on weekends but I could sleep forever when the alarm goes off for kids or the gym.”
  — Tim (05:48)
• Parent struggles & family dynamics: Jokes about motherly weather warnings, kids vomiting on road trips, and the universal stress of holiday logistics.

2. Episode Theme: Faith, Fun, and… the News Is Wild

(04:36, 04:53)

• "Today's theme is brought to you by the letter F—for 'fun'!"
  — April

3. Main Event: Zoran Mamdani’s Meeting with President Trump

(11:22–20:10)

The Build-Up and Political History

• Both sides (MAGA and the left) had anticipated confrontation, as Mamdani had previously called Trump "a fascist," and Trump returned fire, calling Zoran "a communist."
• Trump and Mamdani share a shockingly cordial Oval Office press conference, leaving both MAGA world and left Twitter in disbelief.

Notable Moments and Quotes

• “My brain, look, we gotta live in the Matrix... this does not make sense.”
  — Tim (12:12)
• Reporter to Mamdani: "Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist?"
  Trump cuts in: "You could say yes, it's totally cool.” (13:09)

Both Sides Downplay Previous Attacks

• Trump: Praises Zoran, says "there's no difference in party... we want to help New York," calls him "a really great mayor." (14:07–14:45)
• Zoran: Focus on affordability and shared love for NYC, directly challenges Trump to his face on affordable housing, groceries, and rent.

Analysis:

• The hosts marvel at the surreal reversal: Trump, beloved by the anti-Muslim right, gets cozy with a Muslim socialist mayor.
• Social media’s take: The viral “turtleneck” moment and speculation on whether Zoran cast a charm over Trump (“It's giving... Michael Scott grew a goatee to match Ryan.” — Chat, 16:37)
• April notes: “Maybe we’ve been going about this all wrong. Maybe you just schmooze Trump all the way to the left!” (18:11)

4. Authoritarian Rhetoric: Democrats, the Military, and Trump

(22:27–38:20)

Democratic Lawmakers’ Video to the Military

• Several Democratic Senators/Representatives (all ex-military/CIA) post a viral video reminding military/intel officers they must refuse illegal orders:
  "You can refuse illegal orders... you must refuse illegal orders." (23:17)
• Background: Trump has been deploying federal troops over objections of local city officials.

Trump’s Extreme Response on Truth Social

• Trump (in all caps):
  "This is seditious behavior at the highest level. Each one of these traitors... should be arrested and put on trial. Their words cannot be allowed to stand. Seditious behavior, punishable by death." (30:54–31:48)
• Trump reposts memes: “Lock them up. Seditious behavior punishable by death. HANG THEM. George Washington would.”
• April: “That feels very, very pointed… this is a sitting president telling the American people—what happened to free speech?” (31:50)

Analysis

• Both hosts highlight the jaw-dropping hypocrisy compared to right-wing “free speech” talking points.
• Tim: “It’s a direct violation of the 1st Amendment… the lowest possible bar for presidential standards.”

5. Q&A: Deconstruction, Faith, and Fun

(41:39–63:07)

Key Questions & Bullet Insights

• How do you separate cultural Christianity from your personal spirituality?

  • April: “At the end of the day, my relationship with God is mine and my own. They (evangelicals) don’t get to claim Jesus for themselves.”
  • Tim: “Any religion can be used as a weapon of oppression or a tool for liberation… my allegiance is to Jesus, not to empire Christianity.” (42:44–43:54)

• Telling friends you no longer take the Bible literally:

  • “You can tell them whatever you want, but unless they want to be curious, they’re not going to believe you.” (45:23)
  • April: “Some people don’t need to know certain things. Protect your boundaries.”

• Why do evangelicals support Trump when he’s the opposite of what they espouse?

  • April: “If you are a logical person, you will never understand conservative MAGA Christians… it’s not logical. There’s a lot of indoctrination and cognitive dissonance.” (46:48)
  • Tim: “This is not a bug in the system, it’s the fruit of their theology… Trump is the culmination of the culture we grew up in.”

• Thanksgiving Food Debates: Stuffing vs. Dressing, Canned vs. Homemade Cranberry

  • April: “I call it dressing. I’m from Texas. That’s what we say!”
  • Tim: “It is stuffing! You literally stuff it in the turkey!” (48:02–48:50)

• Relationship to Worship/Christian Music

  • Tim: “There’s a lot of paradox… If the words we sang were lived out, they’d be powerful. But much of worship creates an emotional atmosphere that’s sold as the Spirit.” (52:19–54:29)
  • April: “I used to love it, but the industry is so manipulative and lacks nuance. Now, I know God can meet me at an Incubus concert, too!”
  • Both note the dissonance between the inclusivity songs purport and the exclusion churches often practice—especially regarding Christian nationalism and queer-affirming musicians.

• Trash TV, Relaxing, and Life after Exodus

  • April: “How do I relax? Fantasy novels. Trash TV—Vanderpump Rules, The Bachelor. Just mindless escapism!”
  • Tim: “Anything with Gordon Ramsay, Naked and Afraid… documentaries about Philly mobsters. I’m an unartistic person. Sorry, crafts aren’t for me.”

6. Weird Christian Bleep: ‘We are Charlie Kirk’ AI Song

(69:02–76:14)

• The hosts play and react (with a mix of awe, horror, and laughter) to the viral “We Are Charlie Kirk” AI-generated song, which has been unironically adopted by some far-right Christians as a martyr anthem.

• Memorable quote:
  “It’s just the way they've made him a saint, a martyr... It’s almost cheapening his murder, honestly, because they're making him into this person that he was just not.”
  — April (72:53)

• Tim: “Where are the songs for kids who die in mass shootings? Or the children in Gaza? The right only memorializes those who champion their cause, no matter how bigoted.”

• Follow-up: Memes have arisen, setting the AI song to scenes of “the good old days,” skewering the cult of personality and highlighting the ongoing dangers of Christian nationalism.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You could just say yes. It’s totally cool.”
  — Trump, when asked if Mamdani still thinks he’s a fascist (13:09)

• “If you are a logical person, you will never understand conservative MAGA Christians… it’s not logical.”
  — April (46:48)

• “Any religion can be used as a weapon of oppression or a tool for liberation.”
  — Tim (43:32)

• “That feels very, very pointed. Like, I don't feel that’s out of context.”
  — April, on Trump’s ‘seditious, punishable by death’ post (31:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Thanksgiving Banter & Travel: 03:16–10:50
• Friendsgiving Theme & Opening: 04:36, 04:53
• Mamdani/Trump Meeting Breakdown: 11:22–20:10
• Military/Lawmakers/Sedition Segment: 22:27–38:20
• Q&A – Deconstruction, Faith, and Family: 41:39–63:07
• Weird Christian Bleep (Charlie Kirk AI Song): 69:02–76:14

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Tone & Style

• Engaging, candid, and witty. The hosts weave pop-culture, dry humor, and passionate advocacy throughout, making complex issues accessible for listeners of any faith background.
• Occasionally irreverent, always inclusive—a signature of the Tim & April Show and The New Evangelicals’ ethos.

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For further info, listener engagement, and support resources, visit thenewevangelicals.com.

Remember: Giving Tuesday is coming up!

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End of summary.

Transcript

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Of myself when I was that age.

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That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

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It felt like I was the captain.

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Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how Good leads the way.

[A]

Hey, everyone, Melinda Hale here, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. I just want to take a moment to say thank you for listening to the Tim and April show.

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Thanks for being a part of this movement and for building a better path forward together. Foreign. This is the Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hi. Hello.

[B]

We're here. Special live Tuesday, 12 o' clock Thanksgiving Friendsgiving edition. I don't know.

[A]

Friendsgiving giving friends.

[B]

Welcome in Friends. Welcome into the Tim April show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I am April Ajoy.

[B]

We are live right now and on YouTube and on Substack. Thank you so much for being here. Wow. We already have a super chat. That is so kind. All super chats will get read live on the air. Today is going to be a fun episode, Friends. Look, we are going to cover a few pieces of news. We gotta be consistent, okay, with our format. But, but, but, but yeah, look, it's a holiday weekend. We're all getting out of work a little bit earlier this week. And so April and I were talking. We're gonna do our first ever Q and A live on the air today. So if you have questions, whether you're a substack viewer or a YouTube viewer, drop them in the chat. We'll try and keep track of all of them. And our goal towards the end of this live will be to take a few minutes and answer any questions you might have. I'm assuming there are a lot of people on the sub stack side who might really not have grown up how you and I did, April, as conservative evangelical Christian nationalists and might have a lot of questions about that. So I can see substack chats. We are going to keep track of all that and we'll do our best to get into it later on. But yeah, welcome in friends. Good to have you here.

[A]

Yeah. And feel free to ask like non political questions too if you want.

[B]

Yes, please. That'd be great. Yeah. Fun, fun. Today's theme today. You know, this is like Sesame Street. Today's episode is brought to you by the letter F for fun. We're going to have fun today.

[A]

A. I don't remember how the song goes, but whatever that is, I do have to just like I'm just going to say up front, there I'm very tired. I. My brain. Okay. Literally, as we were prepping, I was having a hardest time focusing on probably a combination of stress. We're about to go out of town for Thanksgiving. I'll be with my in laws and which they're great.

[B]

Okay, cool, cool.

[A]

But I have not been able to sleep in like at all. Like over the weekend. I'll stay up later because I'll think, oh, I can sleep in because it's the weekend.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But then my body has been like waking up at 6:20 every day unable to sleep in. Except for the days that I have to wake up early. Like when I set my alarm for 6:40 to take my kids to school. I am awoken from a dead sleep. Like I could have slept in. I've, I, I don't know what's going on. I'm so annoyed.

[B]

I thought I that was only me because that is me to a freaking T. So almost every weekend now. We're really fortunate where my parents will take the kids from Saturday night to Sunday, like early afternoon, so Sarah and I will get a night to ourselves. We can do whatever we want and we can sleep in on Sunday. And whenever that happens, I am up at like 7:15, 7:30. I cannot fall back asleep. I end up just laying in my bed till like 9 o', clock, wishing I could sleep. But the days I have to be up for the gym or have to be up for the kids, I'm like, no, I can sleep forever. There's something subconscious in our brain that's doing that and it drives me crazy. But because I'm like, wait, we're on the wrong wavelength here. Okay? I should be able to wake up like easily for the gym and for my kids. And when I finally have permission to sleep in, I should be a zombie instead of the opposite.

[A]

I know it's been like, it's been a newer thing and I don't know, I don't know what's going on. We're getting old. Anyway. I'm just saying if I say some things that don't make sense, blame it on the lack of sleep.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And the world.

[B]

Are you traveling out of state?

[A]

Yeah, we're driving to Georgia. And like this, that's also been a whole stressor because it's supposed to rain all day today. We're literally leaving like as soon as I get off this life and wow.

[B]

Well, thanks for being here, April. Means a lot.

[A]

I don't know if this is like a universal mom, mother in law experience, but we for like the last week, both my mom and my mother in law, mom, if you're listening, I love you. We're like, I don't think you should travel on Tuesday. It's a big travel day and there's going to be rain the whole way. Rain the whole way. It's going to be dangerous, like nonstop from both sides. So Be sure is hearing it. I was hearing it. And initially we're like, we'll be fine. We've driven through rain before. So then we. So like we actually eventually though, they kind of wore us down. We're like, okay, fine, you know, we should be safe, blah, blah, blah. So we decide we're just going to leave really early Wednesday morning and we tell our kids they're so sad. And then all of a sudden my mother in law last night, she's like, well, it's actually just going to be light rain, so y' all should just come on. And of course Beecher has her on, on speakerphone and our kids hear it and they're like, yeah, like, well, shoot. I guess now we're driving through the rain. But because we had decided to go Wednesday, we didn't do any of the prep that we needed to do for the travel. So we thought we were going to have a chill night and instead we were up like packing and anyway, it's fine. Wait, wait, does your mom text you about weather? As if you don't have weather apps too.

[B]

Well, no, because my parents are like an hour and 15 minutes away from us, so it's not that bad. But okay, that, that sparked. Can we tell a quick story? I need to tell story that people have not told people about the time I visited my family, visited your family and, and what happened afterwards. So our we drove down to visit you guys in Kentucky. We have a three and a five year old. On the way down. We decided to split the trip up with an overnight stop at a hotel. So the kids weren't, weren't exhausted. Well, in the middle of the night in a hotel, our oldest wakes up like a zombie. Like G does one of these just like straight up and then just upchucks all over the bed. Okay. We're like, great, that's nice thinking. We're thinking maybe he's just tired, he's fatigued. A long day of travel. We end up hanging out with you guys. And on the last night, I guess little Tim had a bug and gave it to your kids. And we're all trying to sleep because we have to be up early. Your kids are puking Our youngest starts.

[A]

Puking and Sarah was puking too.

[B]

Everyone's puking your poor sheets. We're like, I felt so bad. I'm like, oh my God.

[A]

At like 1:00am it's like, it's fine.

[B]

Anyway, friends, well, listen, thanks for being here. If you're watching live on YouTube, please make sure to give this stream a like and subscribe to the channel. If you're watching on substack, give it some heart. I think you, you hit the heart button or something to make substack recognize our live or something. I don't know. Hit that heart button. It makes us feel good really quick. The new the Tim and April show is produced by the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit organization that I started in 2020. Now run by our executive director, Melinda Hale, it's a place for people to find hope after leaving Christian fundamentalism. We help people be empowered to reject Christian nationalism. And we are starting the preparations for Giving Tuesday because we're a nonprofit organization. So Giving Tuesday is coming around the corner, friends. Our goal is to raise $10,000 that will then be matched by an anonymous donor and making your donation worth double on Giving Tuesday. So Please consider donating www.thenewevangelicals.com Support is how you can do that. We'll have some great giveaways. We're doing some very cool tiers for certain donation amounts, including the potential to co co host the show with me in April at some point in the future. So stay tuned for that. Yeah. And all super chats get read live. Okay, so should we get to our main stories? Because I do see some questions coming in for our Q and A. I wanna make sure we're able to get to them.

[A]

Read our super chats so far just to get caught up on those.

[B]

This one has no chat, no comment. It just says $10 from Trachy. Mom. Thank you so much. We have this one. Can you read this one?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, I'll read it. From Lydia, Lydia Wasman. Hope you both have a lovely holiday with your families. Thank you for everything you do. It's such important work, especially in the world we're living in now. Thank you so much for that. And then of course, from Joseph Compton. Happy Thanksgiving. Same to you. Yeah, same to you.

[A]

Okay, should we just start off with something that broke the Internet and maybe broke some of our minds?

[B]

There we go. There's a little picture of it. What the hell?

[A]

Yeah. So Zoran Mamdani went to the White House to meet with President Trump. And I remember there was a lot of buildup to this meeting from both sides. But a lot of MAGA were like, trump's gonna get him. Trump's got his man. Who had true. And like. Because they had both. Trump had called him a communist and then Zoran had called him fascist. And there was a lot of bad blood. Yeah, there.

[B]

A lot.

[A]

But then they did this joint press conference from the Oval Office.

[B]

What is happening?

[A]

My timeline, it was like a love fest, mainly from Trump.

[B]

I. My, my brain, look, we live in. We gotta live in the Matrix. Like, this had to be an error code in the software of the matrix that we're all a part of, because this does not make sense. Like this picture I'm looking at of mom, Donnie and Trump. And Trump is smiling. They're shaking hands. What is happening in America in 2025? Marjorie Taylor Greene resigns. What is happening?

[A]

And that happened on the same day.

[B]

I can't keep track anymore.

[A]

Well, let's watch a few of these clips and then let's talk about it.

[B]

All right, here we go.

[A]

Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist?

[B]

I've spoken about that. You can just say. It's easier. It's easier than explaining it. I don't mind. I'm sorry, I got to pause there. Just that one clip. This reporter asks Mamdani if he thinks Trump is still a fascist. And Trump just says, you could say yes, it's totally cool.

[A]

That's fine now.

[B]

Okay, hold on. Can we just say one thing? Let's reverse the situation. Let's say it was. It was Harris in the presidential seat, and it was some Republican who got elected to mayor. And the. And the reporter says to this new mayor, do you think that Harris is a Marxist communist, socialist? And Harris is like, it's okay. You could just say it. Do you not think that would be all over Fox News right now? Benny Johnson, Al Stucky, every right wing commentator on the planet. My God, Harris finally admitted she's a Marxist communist. But when Trump does it, we just all laugh like it's no big deal. Why is your cat here. Anyway? I just had to point that out like that. Blatant. We know. If it was the opposite, it'd be all over the place. But when Trump says, yeah, I'm a fascist, he could say, yes, no big deal. No big deal. Anyway. Yeah, all right, we'll keep going.

[A]

I feel you.

[B]

How to get that. Get that off my chest. Great meeting. A really good, very productive meeting. We have one thing in common. We want this city of ours that we love to do very well. And I wanted to congratulate the mayor. He really ran an incredible race against a lot of smart people. I think you're going to have, hopefully, a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am. I will say, there's no difference in party. There's no difference in anything. And we're going to be helping him to make everybody's dream come true, having a strong and very safe New York. And congratulations, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you.

[A]

I appreciate it.

[B]

Please. I appreciated the meeting with the president, and as he said, it was a productive meeting focused on a place of shared admiration and love, which is New York City and the need to deliver affordability to New Yorkers, the 8.5 million people who call our city their home, who are struggling to afford life in the most expensive city in the United States of America. We spoke about rent. We spoke about groceries. We spoke about utilities. We spoke about the different ways in which people are being pushed out. And I appreciated the time with the President. I appreciated the conversation. I look forward to working together to deliver that affordability for New Yorkers. Wow. I mean, I. Who had that on their bingo card this year? Who had that on their bingo card?

[A]

Well, yeah, and they had even asked him, like, I don't remember what the question was, but, like, you said all these things about him. Do you still think that? And he was like, oh, no, he's a very rational. Just, like, praised him. Like, that's.

[B]

I know what. I don't even know what to say. Because don't forget this. Trump is representing all these people who are like, mamdani is a radical Islamist who wants to bring Sharia law to America. Rudy Giuliani post. The 911 thing is blaming Mamdani for that. I mean, like, blatant Islamophobia is happening. And then Trump has him at the White House, is like, yeah, this guy's great. I'm a big fan. Smiling. Which makes. I do gotta laugh because all these Christian nationalists, right, who are like, oh, Trump's gonna save America from the deep state and from the crazy radical Islamists like Momdani. And then it's like, well, there's Trump shaking hands. Like, no, actually, this guy's kind of great. I like him. They gotta be losing their mind over this.

[A]

No, I know. Did you go ahead and pull up the. The super chat we just saw? Because it's related. Cullen Dunham says, y' all see Trump's outfit the other day with the turtleneck mom Dummy wore the exact same one. It's giving. When Michael Ryan's. When Michael Scott grew goatee to match Ryan. Did you see that picture?

[B]

No. I'll find it. I'll find it.

[A]

Like, turtleneck sweater underneath the suit. And there's like an image of Zoron from, I don't know, a while back wearing, like almost the exact same thing. And it was shortly after this meeting.

[B]

Okay, hold on, I'm grabbing it. Give me one second, friends.

[A]

Kind of cute.

[B]

I'll pull it in. Okay. I think it is. Hold on.

[A]

I think it's never seen Trump wear this before. And then suddenly, after meeting. Yes.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, look at that.

[A]

Honestly, I saw a bunch of people that were like, is Zoron like a witch? Did he cast a spell on Trump? Like, what sort of magic went on in that meeting? From everything that I read about what was discussed, like, Zoran Mandani, like, he stood on business. Like, he basically said everything that he was his platform to Trump's face. And part of me thinks that because Donald Trump and a lot of people on maga, you know, that side, they only listen to Fox News, so they're getting a Zoran Mamdani version that's filtered through a very right wing propaganda lens. I'm sure Donald Trump, like, seeing him in the flesh and hearing what his actual policies and goals are, he was like, whoa, that's actually not evil.

[B]

You know, people are saying, People are saying, that is not the picture. That's not the picture.

[A]

That's not the picture.

[B]

Hang on.

[A]

That. Well, oh, of, of Zoron. Because there's a picture of Zoron wearing, like, almost identical, the same red.

[B]

Okay, I'll see if I could dig it up, but okay, it's fine.

[A]

It's funny enough, honestly, after this, part of me is like, maybe we've been going around about this the whole, like, wrong the whole time. Like, maybe we should have just been schmoozing Trump. Like, I feel like you could just go in and schmooze Trump all the way to the left.

[B]

If you're, if you're a social, if you're a narcissist, how do you, how do you win that person over? You just struck their ego, right? And kind of just nudge them. Yeah, Mom, Donnie did.

[A]

So I do have to say I made a little. I made a video with clips from the meeting of Trump. Like, there's like an image of Trump just looking up at Zoron, beaming the biggest smile I've ever seen on Trump's face. And so I took, like, those clips, put it together, and I put that Michael Blue Blay l is for the way you look at me. And I zoomed in on it and did all of the things. And it has, like 4 million views on Instagram right now.

[B]

So I love that you went viral. It's a great video. Congratulations. We all know that, that when you go viral, you make a lot of money. So congratulations on becoming a millionaire.

[A]

Yeah, I made zero dollars for it, but it was fun.

[B]

This is. I think this. This is the other picture people were mentioning. I think they were wearing the. The literal. The same color turtleneck, like, the same exact outfit. Oh, I love it here. I love it here. Yeah. Well, anyway, we had to put that out.

[A]

I. Yeah, you know, if. Good. Good for Imam Donnie for going in there and winning Trump over.

[B]

Yeah, no, for sure.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's you. It's so hard to make sense. Like, every time you and I talk about Christian nationalism and think, oh, like, here's the logic to it. Here's how fascism works, you know, it's like, wait, what? Like, Trump met with Mamdani and they got along and everything is cool. But then, of course, like, after that, Trump, like, starts talking about how he wants to hang traitors. So it's just like, what are we doing here? Like, what is going on? It's a bizarre place to be.

[A]

Yeah. Like, to be fair, Donald Trump is still terrible.

[B]

Still terrible, for sure.

[A]

Whatever. But. But it kind of. It. It tracks with what I've believed about Trump for a long time, and that's that he's not really a true Republican or conservative by your typical standards of what those policies typically are. Trump is. He's in it for Trump.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, like, he. He doesn't have any one firm belief system or firm way of thinking. He can easily be swayed, which is why it's so dangerous to have him meeting with all these dictators that can schmooze.

[B]

Exactly, Exactly. He has no foundational values. Right. He has no foundational set of core principles that guide his life besides me, me, me, me, me, me, more of me. And so I guess that's what Mom Don is appealing to here, to in that case, which is great. But also it's why someone like that should never be president, because you could be swayed by bad faith actors. Did you see. Did you see when Twitter recently let people see where accounts were made from, and it turned out like a bunch of major mecha accounts were all like, foreign actors or foreign made Accounts like it's, that kind of stuff is what we're talking about. Right. Like there's so much interference in the maga world to push people towards more fascist, fascistic or, you know, authoritarian tendencies. And because Trump is self centered and an egomaniac, he is more than happy to have the attention and given the power to do that. Right. It's wild.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know, Tim. That just sounds like a Russia, Russia, Russia hoax to me.

[B]

Yeah. Lock her up. Friends, if you excuse me, that coffee had the wrong bite pipe. Okay, friends, if you're just joining the live, welcome in all super chats. Get read Live giving Tuesdays. Coming up for the new evangelicals, please consider, consider supporting. Let's see, should we move on to our next story? We're trying to blow through these things, friends, to make room for our weird Christian bleep. It's a good one. And for Q and A. So the other thing that came up was, was this video that, that went viral. Some Democratic lawmakers made a video who are also former military members. And here's what they said in the video. I'm gonna thing and then we're gonna get into what Trump responded to or how he responded after this was posted.

[A]

I'm Senator Alyssa Slotkin.

[B]

Senator Mark Kelly. Representative Chris d'. Aluzio.

[A]

Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander. Representative Chrissy Houlihan.

[B]

Congressman Jason Crow. I was a captain in the United States Navy, Former CIA officer, former Navy, former paratrooper and Army Ranger, former intelligence.

[A]

Officer, former Air Force.

[B]

We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community. Community who take risks each day to keep Americans safe.

[A]

We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk.

[B]

This administration is pitting our uniform military.

[A]

And intelligence community professionals against American citizens like us.

[B]

You all swore an oath to protect.

[A]

And defend this Constitution.

[B]

Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

[A]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[B]

You must refuse illegal orders.

[A]

No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution.

[B]

We know this is hard and that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.

[A]

But whether you're serving in the CIA, the army or Navy, the Air Force.

[B]

Your vigilance is critical.

[A]

And know that we have your back. Because now more than ever, the American people need you. We need you to stand up for.

[B]

Our laws, our Constitution, and who we are as Americans. Don't give up don't give up. Don't give up.

[A]

Don't give up the ship.

[B]

Okay. I mean, powerful video. Powerful.

[A]

Yeah. Good. Good for them. I honestly wondered that when we had Amy McGrath on. She was former military Marine from a long time ago, but it was a few months when we had her on over the summer. But we had asked her, like, can the military refuse unlawful orders? And she was like, yes. In fact, they should.

[B]

Yeah. It's her duty to do that. Yeah. Which is great. I mean, look, we need to understand that it is unprecedented for the federal government to be using the military in the way that this regime is doing it. There have always been times throughout American history where the National Guard was called in during, you know, really intense times. That's. That's not an unprecedented thing. What's unprecedented is that the federal government is sending these troops into cities against the wishes of the people in charge of those cities. Right. So Trump is literally sending in federal troops to Los Angeles or Chicago in the name of trying to stop crime, quote, unquote, or to stop illegal immigration, quote, unquote, against the wishes of the mayors and governors of those cities and states. That's the weaponization. Right. Of our military for political purposes. So having these lawmakers who are also former military, you know, personnel, say this, I think is really powerful. And by the way, I mean, that's. That's what. You swear an oath to the Constitution. Right. You don't swear an oath to the sitting president. You swear an oath to upholding the laws of America and the Constitution. And we've seen time and time again due process being violated right at the hands of these people, either ICE agents, other federal agents, or the military. So I think what they're doing is, first off, it's perfectly legal to say that. And number two, it's a great reminder that if you're in the military, you do not have to comply with illegal orders. You should resist tyranny. That's key. But, of course, Trump didn't like that, did he, April?

[A]

Oh, no, no, not like that at all. I mean, they were very clear in saying illegal orders.

[B]

Illegal, Right, Right. Meaning not lawful. Like, you know, right.

[A]

Against the law, against the Constitution.

[B]

When our government is working in a healthy way, the three branches are supposed to have a tug of war, and. And no one branch should be able to dominate over America, and that includes the President. The President has checks and balances. Trump and his regime, especially because of things like Project 2025, have worked really hard in the past nine months to erode as many of those checks and balances as possible, whether it's blatantly defying court orders or it's. It's having Elon Musk gut government institutions with money that was already appropriated by Congress to be spent on those programs like usaid. There's been all these different attacks on our system. And so I think it's really important that this is said so Trump.

[A]

Can I just say. Can I just say, yes, I were president, right. And someone from an opposing party made a video that said, hey, you don't need to listen to unlawful orders. I feel like my response from like a strategic standpoint would be to say, I agree, you shouldn't listen to illegal orders, because that would be illegal. And good thing. Everything that I say is legal, Especially.

[B]

Coming from the party of law and order. Right. I mean, isn't Trump the one who was saying law and order?

[A]

Yeah, I feel like that would be the best response slammed on someone who wasn't doing anything shady.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. It's kind of like when you find out that you're in the files, suddenly you change your mind on the Epstein files. From release, release, release to what files? The Democratic hoax. Right.

[A]

Hi, my name is Ashley and I live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I am a TNA donor because I believe wholeheartedly in the work that they're doing. Growing up, the word Republican was synonymous with Christian. It was implied that to be a Christian, you had to vote a certain way. But around 2015, 2016, I started waking up and noticing the harmful us versus them mentality in our country. The harmful rhetoric from people like Trump or Sean Foyt, for example, just did not match up with the Jesus I knew and had been taught about for, you know, almost 30 years. At that point, I'd say that was the catalyst for me to really just examine my faith. Tne content, I believe it inspires us to be a better and more loving neighbor to the people around us. And that is what I believe Christianity is about.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Hey, friends, Tim here. Real quick. I wanna let you know that Giving Tuesday is coming up and I wanna give you a little heads up because this year we're really gonna need your help. The new evangelicals is evolving under Melinda Hale's leadership. 2026 is going to be a groundbreaking year, releasing more resources, content and community spaces than we ever had before. Our goal is to raise $10,000 on Giving Tuesday, which will then be matched by an anonymous donor for a grand total of $20,000. This funding is essential so we can enter 2026 strong. More than ever, people need to be empowered to reject Christian nationalism and boldly advocate for their neighbors rooted in the way. So stay tuned, check your email, check our socials, and be ready. Giving Tuesday is right around the corner and we can't do this work without you. All right, back to the episode. Okay, so Trump went on Truth Social. This was the first thing he said. Do you want to read these in your Trump voice? You do it so well.

[A]

I'd love to. It's called seditious behavior at the highest level. Each one of these traitors to our country should be arrested and put on trial. Their words cannot be allowed to stand. We won't have a country anymore. An example must be set. President djt, I love how he signs off. He signs all his. He's like such a. Oh, God.

[B]

I mean, he just sounds like an angry little teenager.

[A]

It's like those people that quote themselves. Like, they'll post something in quotes and then at the end put their name as if we can't see that they're the one posting it.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so first he says that, then he keeps going. Then he says this one.

[A]

Another one. Seditious behavior punishable by death.

[B]

I mean, that's crazy.

[A]

That feels very, very pointed. Like, I don't feel that out of context.

[B]

Right. This is a sitting president telling the American people that what These Democratic lawmakers said is seditious behavior that is punishable by death. What happened to free speech? Hmm? What happened to. What happened to. No, no free speech. Hey, hey, hey. And by the way, if you're going to argue the free speech piece, one can make an argument easily that your speech being restricted on social media is not government interference. But a sitting president telling you that your words amount to seditious behavior punishable by death is a direct violation of the First Amendment. Because Trump is not a private citizen. He's representing the most powerful office in our. In our government, and he's saying that what those people said is punishable by death. It's a, it's a blatant violation of their First Amendment right. But you're not going to hear that from the right wing media world who insists that because they got banned on Twitter for saying, you know, words about Hitler and the N word and whatever else, somehow their speech is under attack. But these lawmakers. No, no, no. Yeah, I agree. Retweet. Yeah. Trump, this behavior, it's just wild. It's wild.

[A]

I got to say, he, he, this really got under his skin because he went on, like, a reposting meme situation. He did like, remember your oath. And then it's him, like, in an American flag cape, like he's a superhero. I mean, there's a bunch like that, too.

[B]

Yeah, this is the other one that really got me. I mean, this one is bad, too. If you want to read it, you can. April, it's up to you.

[A]

Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So he's retweeting the video here or the article about the video, and it says, this is really bad and dangerous to our country. Their words cannot be allowed to say, stand seditious behavior from traitors. Lock them up. President djt, I don't know if he meant to put question marks there.

[B]

Yeah, lock them up.

[A]

Lock them up.

[B]

The one that got me was this. He retweeted someone who said, hang them. George Washington Wood. How are these not calls for violence?

[A]

They are calls for violence.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

So he. So Trump went and clarified because he did get pushback, and it said bipartisan pushback. So. But I didn't, I didn't see a ton of Republicans. Anyway, so Trump on Friday, this past Friday, he went on Brian Kilmeade's radio show. And for context, Brian Kilmeade is the same Fox News host that basically said you could. You should just kill homeless people by lethal injection.

[B]

He's that dude.

[A]

That guy. So. Oh, my gosh by the way, he never faced any consequence for saying that on Fox News. He's just still there. Fox News.

[B]

Brian Kilmeade apologizes after saying US should just kill mentally ill homeless people by lethal injection. That's the headline. He still is a job at Fox News, FYI.

[A]

Yeah, so he went on his radio show. So Trump on Friday went on his show and he said he was not saying that they should kill Democrats, quote, not threatening death. And then he said, trying to clarify, he said, in the old days, if you said a thing like that, that was punishable by death. And then he said the president denied that he threatened the members of Congress, saying, quote, I think they're in serious trouble. I would say they are in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trou trouble. In the old days, it was death that was seditious behavior.

[B]

I cannot believe millions of Americans hear this man talk and go, yeah, that guy's coherent. He's saying he's mentally stable. What? Can you repeat that one more time? I need to hear that word salad one more time.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yes. Hold on. I gotta go back to it. He said, in the old days, if you said a thing like that, that was punishable by death. I think he's talking about Democrats now. I think they're in serious trouble. I would say they're in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trouble. In the old days, it was death that was seditious behavior.

[B]

What? What? This is how MAGA has operated. This is how Trump has operated since the beginning.

[A]

Remember?

[B]

Oh, well, that's just alternative facts. Remember that statement? Alternative facts. That doesn't exist. Oh, fake news.

[A]

We should kill them. I'm just saying if we lived in a different time, we should kill them.

[B]

Right. But to be clear, I just want, you know, to be emphatic. That's not what this says. Seditious behavior punishable by death does not say back in the olden days. Nor does reposting hang them. George Washington would. Nor does saying that this is seditious behavior at the highest level. Each one of these traitors to our country should be arrested and put on trial. That does not say what Trump just said that he was saying. And this is, this is the insanity we have to live in, where we are used to a president lying so much that it doesn't even make like, like, like small news headlines to see someone blatantly lie about what he tweeted out a few days ago.

[A]

That's how.

[B]

That's how low the bar is for. For our president. And by the way, it only applies to Trump, right? It didn't apply to Biden. The standard was not that low. It wouldn't apply to Harris. It didn't apply to. To Obama. It only applies to Trump. Only Trump can be this ridiculous. This.

[A]

And the way that they so blatantly reframe what the Democrats actually said, like the way that MAGA Trump administration has talked about it, is that the Democrats were calling for the military to disobey orders. They didn't say disobey orders. They said disobey illegal orders. Illegal orders. If you're not making illegal orders, you have nothing to worry about. But he is weaponizing the military against American citizens. Like, that is something that is already happening, so.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, God. Why? Okay, Happy. This is supposed to be a happy, fun episode.

[A]

Happy, happy.

[B]

Let's just move on, okay? We all saw. We all know what happened. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really quick. I want to promote something briefly. Tne Connect. So if you're looking for a place to connect with people off of the algorithms of Meta and Instagram, the New Evangelicals has our own private community space with free resources, its own social media feed. You can go to thenewevangelicals.com/connect to join. There is no cost, friends. Okay? This is not a paid ad. There's no cost to joining or being a part of our community. Okay? It's totally paywall free. Go to thenew evangelicals.com connect to join. It's a great space. It's quiet. There's about 4,000 people in that group. We have all kinds of free resources, regional chats, everything. So go ahead and check it out.

[A]

Yes. Should we. Let's get caught up on our super chats.

[B]

Oh, God. Okay, let's see. Here we go.

[A]

Thank you all for the super chats, by the way.

[B]

Thank you from Deanna. Us millennials have to be good at gentle parenting, conservative baby boomers. This is what Zoron did to Trump. Yes, that's a great point. Cinder, you're the best. I am scared silly, but your words make a lot of sense. Greetings from Finland. Love these lives. Hey, I've been to Finland. I spent a month in Rovaniemi.

[A]

Oh, that's so cool. I've never been to Finland, but one of my besties promise. Eva Frame, who was on here, she is in Finland right now.

[B]

Is she now a citizen of Finland? I know that she was applying for it, right?

[A]

Yeah, I think I Think she got it. I will say her husband's from there.

[B]

I was there a long time ago, but I really loved being there for the month. I was very north, like close to the Arctic Circle, but I really enjoyed my time. And then last one from Ark Radish. Greetings from Shiny and Happy to Matt, Matt and Mad Pipeline.

[A]

Hi, friend.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

He was in Shiny, Happy People season one.

[B]

Oh, cool. So awesome. Last one. Silly idea. Allah. The Hank and John podcast. Tim and April make a bet, and if April wins, the title of the show gets changed to the April and Tim show.

[A]

We could change that on our graphics. It'd be hard to change on the socials.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[A]

That'd be fun.

[B]

Yeah, it would be a good time. Okay, so let's see here.

[A]

Yeah, let's just go to the Q and A.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do we have questions?

[B]

We have a bunch. We have a bunch friends, if you want to throw in a Q and A in substack, I'm looking at the comments here. I'll try and get to it. I also asked the producer on the substack side to text me questions. So if you see some my friend, please text them to me. But, yeah, this is the first time we've ever done this before. A live Q and A. And this. Honestly, it's kind of cool to hear from the audience what questions are on their mind, because you don't always know, like, who you're speaking to. Right. I don't know how much people know about our tradition that we grew up in or how much they have or how deep they were in the weeds along with us. So let's see here. I'll pull up a few that I'll grab. Okay. I'll be looking for a few good ones. Okay, let's do this one. I'll put it in the. I'll bring it up on chat. Ah, I'm going to put it here. I'm going to grab it. Wait, where'd it go? Tim and April, how do you separate cultural Christianity from your personal spirituality slash relationship with God as part of your deconstruction? Or is that part of the whole journey?

[A]

Good question. How do we separate it? I like to look at the global church, too, to realize that's not all Christianity. And in fact, it's a very small minority of Christianity. And then at the end of the day, my relationship with God and my spiritual life is mine and my own. And I think it. I think I kind of come more full circle. Like there was a while there Where I was like, screw it all. I don't want anything to do with it. Like, I even considered dropping the Christian label because, like, even though I love Jesus and all that, I just, I hated what, how that is associated, especially in America. But I don't know, I kind of came to a conclusion of, no, I'm not going to let this small minority in the history of the Christian tradition ruin what has been so dear in my life. And they don't get to claim it. It's mine too, and I'm not going to let them have it.

[B]

100 agree. I often say that you and I, April, grew up in this basement that was dark and damp and moldy. And we didn't know that above us was an entire house of Christian thought of all different kinds of rooms and traditions. And when we got above ground, it was like, oh, my God, I thought that there was a. Just a desert wasteland up here. Turns out there are so many other rooms to explore. Look, I mean, the reality is this. Any religion can be used as a weapon of oppression or a tool for liberation. And we're certainly, as you know, April, we're not ignorant to the reality that white Christian nationalism is posing or the danger it is to society. However, there's a long tradition of Christianity that has been opposed to the Christianity of empire, you know, the black liberation theology and tradition led by people like MLK and, you know, James cone, et cetera. So that same thing, like, there's a separation for me of like, this is personal, but my allegiance is to Jesus. You know, it's not to even Christianity in that sense. Right. It's to the way of Christ, which means I have to love my enemies and fight for the liberation of the oppressed. It just comes down to that for me personally.

[A]

Yeah, I concur. Do you have another question?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Thank you for the questions.

[B]

Thank you. Let's do a fun one. What are your 4 favorite all time movies? Can't watch anything else for the rest of your life? Go ahead, April. I already know your answer to three of them.

[A]

Okay. Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Rings, Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers, Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, and the fourth movie, Dumb and Dumber.

[B]

Oh, that's a solid one. Okay. I'm a huge Mighty Ducks fan. I could watch that trilogy forever. Mighty Ducks 1, 2 and 3 D2 is the best one, obviously. Also, I'm going to say for me, Hot Rod. Hot Rod is a movie I can watch. It's a classic. I'm Saying classic. Where do you get off? Fun fact. Sarah and I actually bonded over that movie. That's how we first met. I dropped. I was like, yeah, cool beans. She was like, cool beans. I'm like, yeah, cool beans. That's how we kind of started talking a little bit.

[A]

So that's adorable.

[B]

That's a fun one. Okay, let's see here. I'm looking through. How do I tell my best friend I no longer believe in the Bible as literal history?

[A]

I. I don't know. I don't. I think that's so hard because I don't know your relationship with that person. Yeah, you know.

[B]

I can answer this one.

[A]

Say it or don't say it. Yeah, go ahead, take it.

[B]

Yeah. Look, here's the reality. I'm assuming that your friend is conservative, evangelical. You can tell them whatever you want, but unless they want to be curious, they're not going to believe you, you know, So I would just be honest. Like, look, here's how I view the Bible. Now, you can take it or leave it. Unfortunately for some people who grew up like us, when you tell people who you think are your friends those things, they think that you have become a liberal or that you become a heretic, and they will start to distance yourself from you. Themselves from you. So I would just say be aware of the potential risks that you're taking when you tell someone that you know.

[A]

Right. Also also know, like, that some people don't need to know certain things. Like if you. You don't have to tell them to 100%.

[B]

Okay, I'm looking through this. I'm looking through substack here to see if we have. Okay, here's one. This is actually a good one. Then we'll get to some more fun ones. We answer this all the time. How can. This is from Carol. Thanks, Carol, for watching on Subsect. By the way, how can conservatives, especially evangelical Christians, support Trump? He's everything you purport to be against. Yes, that is true, Carol. You wrote a whole book on this.

[A]

And indoctrination.

[B]

You wrote a whole book on this, didn't you?

[A]

Yeah, I did. It's called Star Spangled Jesus.

[B]

What a small one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Leaving Christian Nationalism and finding a True Faith. Here's the thing. If you are a logical person, like, if you like to use logic to come to what you believe, you will never understand, like conservative MAGA Christians.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there's a lot. It doesn't make sense. It's not logical. You kind of have to just accept that there's A lot of indoctrination and a lot of cognitive dissonance that they are constantly holding. And I'm saying this as someone who used to hold all these same beliefs and just know it does. It doesn't make sense. I can give you a lot of reasons of how we justified things. They're not going to make sense 100%.

[B]

I agree also, and I mean this sincerely. If you're really curious, read April's book. You can tune into the show, of course, but there's also other books that are really helpful. Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Dumay is really good. It just kind of helps you understand how we got here. And the sad reality is that this is. This is the fruit of a certain kind of Christian theology. It's not a bug. And I think, at least for me, I'm not sure about you, April. In the beginning, I was like, oh, my God, there's a bug in the system. Something went wrong with Trump. Now I realize that Trump was simply the fruit of the theology that I was a part of my entire life. So I think that. I think that that's worth noting. Okay, let's do a fun one. This is from Juliana Massey. Do you prefer canned or homemade cranberry sauce? I prefer canned also. Do you call it stuffing or dressing? Who calls it dressing? Happy Thanksgiving. I'm thankful to find this community, April.

[A]

I call it dressing.

[B]

Ew. Why? It's not dressing, though. It's stuffing. You literally stuff it in the turkey. Stuffing.

[A]

No, that's like the stuff in the. And you bake it separately and you eat it with the turkey.

[B]

Yeah, but like. But you don't know. Ranch is dressing. Ranch dressing.

[A]

No, dressing all the way. You. I think dressing is a more Southern thing. Yeah. Someone in the comments says the south calls it dressing.

[B]

Okay. Thumbs up for stuffing. Thumbs down for dressing.

[A]

Down.

[B]

Fine. I'll be. I'll be the martyr here. Thumbs down for stuffing. Thumbs up for dressing. I'm looking at substack and at the YouTube chat, so let me know, because I have always called it stuffing. I've never called a dressing my entire life.

[A]

No, it is dressing. It is dressing. And I'm from Texas. I grew up calling it dressing.

[B]

That's weird.

[A]

And this is. Oh, what about. What? Did you answer the cranberry question?

[B]

I'm not a big cranberry person.

[A]

Honestly. Same. I don't ever eat it.

[B]

All right, look.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Wait. What's your favorite Thanksgiving, like, food?

[A]

Okay. It's not really an official Thanksgiving food, but it's my favorite that my family made. It's like a cheesy hash brown casserole with corn flakes on top. And it is absolutely delicious.

[B]

Okay. Dressing. Whatever you say. I am a Mac and cheese snob. I love Mac and cheese. I could live off it if it didn't kill me eventually. But I'm a huge Mac and cheese. And honestly, I do like good stuffing. I'm a fan of good stuffing. So, yeah. Personally. Okay, let's see. These are fun. How many more we got? We got a bunch.

[A]

We have a lot. There's a bunch that Cassidy, she's been keeping track from our YouTube.

[B]

Wow. She's on it. 66% of YouTube chat says stuffing. How did she calculate that? Cassidy, thank you. It feels good to be right. Feels good to be right. It feels good to be right.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Okay, this is a fun one. If you. Oh, there's a pole running. I can't see the poll. That's what it is. If you could do. Yeah, well, on my program, I guess I can't. I can just see very basic chats.

[A]

It's fine. I love it.

[B]

If you could add any fun feature, example, water slide, library, et cetera, to your house for free, what would it be?

[A]

Movie theater.

[B]

So the kid in me always wanted a water slide because. Did you ever see the movie Blank Check as a child?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, can we just talk about how predatory that movie actually is with the FBI agent kissing the 11 year old on the lips?

[A]

Oh, well, it's been a long time since I've seen it.

[B]

No, I rewatched it the other day. Now, look, I will say as a kid.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because I like. What? Look, I like to reminisce about my youth in my childhood. And we have Disney plus and so, you know, heavyweights, Mighty Ducks, Blank Check. They're all on there. So why Angels in the Outfield? I watched that one recently. Why not exactly.

[A]

See, see?

[B]

And also, I have kids. Anyway, so I will say that Blank Check gave me the first idea. First off, of how far a million dollars supposedly goes. That was crazy. But I always wanted a water slide in my house. Going into a pool. Yeah. Yeah. That's my dream scenario.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. Can I.

[B]

You weren't listening to me. What were you reading? I know.

[A]

I was reading a question from Cassidy. I was moving on. You said a water slide, did you not? Is that what you said?

[B]

That's what I said. That's what I said.

[A]

I heard you. And I like water slides, too. When Beecher and I went on our honeymoon. We went to Jamaica. And one of the excursions that we went on was like, to this water slide on top of this mountain with the pool. And there was like zip lines, like all these other stuff. And so Beecher and I, there were a bunch of kids and families there. And we were on our honeymoon, mind you, and we spent probably an hour just doing the water slide. And when I tell you, we were the only adults doing this water slide. But I love water slides, too.

[B]

I love that. I'm a huge fan.

[A]

Here's a good question, because I think I'm curious of your response too. What is your relation? This is from Megan. What is your relationship with worship slash Christian music now after deconstruction?

[B]

It's so complicated. So you want. Okay, I'll answer this first and then you can. So I used to be a professional drummer, and I was in the worship space for a lot of years. I have a lot of GoPro footage of me singing or drumming to these songs, and I'm really torn. I do not have a coherent answer on this. I realize there's a lot of paradox here. On one hand, as a musician, I loved playing in those spaces. I mean, even now I'm using my in ear molds that I use as a musician. Like I was in a very professional space. The music is fun to drum to. It's dynamic. And frankly, if the words that we sang were actually being lived out, I think they're really powerful. So that's on one hand. On the other hand, I was responsible for creating an atmosphere of convincing people that the Holy Spirit was showing up in magical ways when it was really how the music was designed to invoke a sense of awe and wonder. And so here's the thing. All music is manipulative, right? Like, we listen to songs to manipulate our emotions, make us feel certain ways. What felt tricky about it was when I was told or when people were telling others, this is the Holy Spirit, this is God, right? Well, no, it's a chord buildup. It's my tom, it's my cymbal swelling. And that's not wrong to think about that and then to be in awe with the words you're singing. Last thing I'll say about this, and I'll get your thoughts. When I deconstructed all that, I went to a church that was queer affirming. That was also very high production. And they. They did a worship set and there was a bunch of folks who were queer on the stage. A trans man And a married gay couple. And they were singing these songs I grew up singing in church. And it was really powerful for me to see them singing songs about God's unconditional love and inclusivity that actually meant. Or that was actually being lived out in a way that I never saw before. I think that was one of my. One of my biggest hangups. Right. You sing these songs about God's unconditional love, then you find out that. That the church is kicking out your gay neighbor. So I go back and forth, honestly.

[A]

Yeah. I think it depends on the worship songs, too. Like, there are some songs that I will still cry if I hear them because it reminds me of. There's, like, sentimental things to it, and it reminds me of. This song really got me through this really hard time in my life. And I can hold reverence for that, despite. In some ways, too. I think it's like separating the art from the artist. Because there's some very Christian nationalist artists that have created songs that I used to love, you know, and still probably would it. I don't know. I. So for me, to me, I think that I don't like the way that. It's like, the way that they position Christian music, and a lot of evangelicals do. This is like, if you're a good Christian, you have to only listen to Christian music. Like, that's the only way God can speak to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For me now, like, I still think that I can have spiritual experiences with music because it is a very powerful thing. I have just broadened my music. Like, I think God can speak to me through an Incubus concert, too, you know, like, which actually happened when I was in college. I was like, whoa, the Holy Spirit is here at this Incubus concert. And then, you know, and maybe that's just music, I don't know. But I just think. I just don't think I need to limit it to Christian music. And in fact, I think those can be so manipulative that, I don't know. I also have conflicted feelings on it, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[B]

I'll also add this. I'm very frustrated watching the modern CCM contemporary Christian music industry pump out all these songs about revival while the administration that they voted for is arresting their immigrant neighbor. Like, Brandon likes a good example of this. Like, screw that dude. Brandon Lake is this huge megastar worship guy. Didn't he see a Charlie Kirk's funeral service? Along with, like, Carrie Job, a bunch of other big names.

[A]

Chris Tomlin.

[B]

Yeah, Chris. Like, how Dare you sing songs to a brown skinned immigrant Jewish person who grew up in modern day Palestine named Jesus while supporting politics and regimes that are bombing kids in Gaza and that are arresting and kidnapping brown skinned people in America for no damn reason. That's where I get aggravated. Like, it's so. Their view of revival is so pathetic. They think that if they can get people into a stadium to sing their songs, which by the way, they get paid to do, and if they'll raise their hand out of emotion that they want to be a Christian, somehow revival has come to America. That is bullshit. It's bullshit. So that stuff makes me really aggravated.

[A]

Yeah. And it feels very performative because I agree with you. And there's a lot of lyrics that really bother me. Like we still, we go to church, we go to a Methodist church. And for the most part the songs that they sing are not terrible. But every once in a while we'll be singing a song that like, I just disagree with the lyrics. It's just, I think that that's the problem with a lot of Christian music and really Christian movies too, is that it wraps everything up in this perfect. Like, God can fix everything. God is always good. I'm never fail. Like, he never fails. I've never. There's never a battle that I could face that I can't handle. And like, I just feel like it falls so flat and can be so tone deaf when we're looking at the world around us. Because Christian art lacks nuance. It's very black and white. It's very like, this is evil and this is good. And as long as you're following Jesus, good things are going to happen. Like it's going to be wrapped up in this perfectly packaged bow gift, whatever. And there's just, there's not a lot of depth to the music.

[B]

If, if the audience will just, you know, give us a minute to flesh this out. Because we don't talk about this a lot. But both April and I were former worship people. So while we're on the topic, modern day white worship music does not know how to really lament. It doesn't know how to really get into the dark night of the soul. All of these songs about how God always comes through for you. Tell it to the person who lost their dad to cancer. Like, that's what I don't get, right? Like we're given like, almost like this toxic positivity of like, well, God's still good. You know, the person who lost their parent in that freak car accident. The person who was assaulted by their spouse who was a pastor at that church, isn't going to think God is good for putting them in that situation or for taking their parent away. But the church has no answer to that because in their mind, their view of God, God can never be, God can never let you down. Have you read the Psalms? God does let people down in the Psalms. Like, it's okay to think, God, where the hell are you? So I think that, you know, as I, as I, as I reflect on my own journey with this, there was no real space to truly lament hard times and ask, where is God in this? And given permission to be mad at God when God did not show up, like, how I was taught, he would show up. It was always put on me. I didn't pray hard enough, I didn't worship hard enough. I'm not believing enough, right? Instead of saying, no, this is bullshit. Like, no, no, I, I'm defaulting on my mortgage. Where's God? Where, Right? That kind of stuff. So I think that's, that's an important piece to me too.

[A]

Toxic positivity, too. Where, like, even, like, going to church, you put on this smile, you always are like, well, God is good. Even if, like, you are going through. I don't know, it's just kind of living in denial. And I, I, I was that girl whose dad died. Like, my dad died of cancer back in 2011. And he was diagnosed from diagnosis to passing was four months. And we were Pentecostal and it was like this really freak situation. And when he died, I had a lot of fellow Christians telling me, like, oh, well, like it could never be God's fault, right? You, he just didn't heal your dad because you didn't have enough faith. He just didn't heal your dad because you were living in sin or had some sort of unresolved sin, or your dad was living in, out of God's will because he was a pastor instead of an evangelist. All, all of those things were said to me or, you know, God did heal your dad. You shouldn't be sad because he got his ultimate healing in heaven and you're gonna get to see him one day. And there's no reason to be sad because he, he's not sad anymore. And it's just like, it's just the gaslighting. It's, it's, that was like the first, Honestly, that was the start of my deconstruction, only I didn't know it yet because I was, I was just so over, like, I should be allowed to Mourn my dad. And I was like, I even had friends were like, I don't really know how to be around you. Like, I don't know what to say to you because I was. I was just sad. And I'm like, I'm just sad. Like, just be with me. I don't know.

[B]

Like, just be a presence in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing that.

[A]

Anyway, I don't know how we got on that.

[B]

Yeah, okay, we got. Let's do maybe one or two more, then we'll get into our weird Christian bleep. How's that sound?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So. So someone has asked us a few times, hey, Tim, didn't you write a book? When's it coming out? The book is not coming out. The book is not happening. But I do have a full manuscript. So if you're a publisher, give me a call because I do have a book that's ready to go.

[A]

Shameless Plug.

[B]

Shameless. Yeah, that's my Shameless plug for my book. That is not coming out. And then someone on substack. Let's see. Apparently they've been asking a lot of food questions. That's always a good time. Oh, the question I have here. What's your view on sweet potato casserole and is it better with marshmallows or chopped pecans? Lots of food related questions.

[A]

For some reason you say pecan and not pecan.

[B]

You know what? I can't pronounce almost anything, so you're probably. You probably say things better. You're probably right. I'm probably wrong. Let's just say. Let's just put it that way.

[A]

Well, no, I think that's a pretty common debate.

[B]

Pecan or caramel? Or caramel.

[A]

It's not pecan.

[B]

Pecan.

[A]

Wait, what was the question? Sweet potato casserole. I'm kind of indifferent on sweet potato casserole, if I'm being honest.

[B]

Okay, me too. But I will say my mom and now Sarah. They make a mean sweet potato casserole because they do a layer of brown sugar and then marshmallows. It is so good. I'm not a nut person. Like, pecans are not my thing, you know? Not my thing.

[A]

Because we are. Charlie.

[B]

Hey, hey. Don't, don't. Do not give away what's coming. They're gonna stop watching April. Jesus, That's so funny.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

Let's do one or two more friends last, last couple minutes here. Any questions you have, let us know. We'll try and answer a few.

[A]

Yeah, and we're not gonna be able to get to everyone. And we're. We apologize. Apologize in advance or in retrospect?

[B]

We love you all. We love you all, truly. Okay, someone. What arts and crafts do you like to do? My grandma's hobby is crochet.

[A]

Can I just say, I am not a domesticated person. I have never been like that domesticated wife. But I do like to do puzzles. I don't think that's a craft, but.

[B]

I'm the most unartistic person you're ever gonna meet when it comes to, like, painting or drawing or crocheting. I'm terrible at that. So I don't really have any favorite crafts. I don't know, April, for you, how do you relax? I really don't. I define myself either doom scrolling all day or, like, it's just hard to really turn off. I think, for me, anyway, I'm working on it.

[A]

I like to relax by either reading a fantasy novel and just disassociating hardcore.

[B]

Good call.

[A]

Or I like to just binge watch trash tv.

[B]

Me too. Me too. I love trash tv. Oh, it's such a problem.

[A]

Wait, I've been watching Vanderpump Rules. Have you ever watched that?

[B]

No.

[A]

Vanderpump Rules. My. Some of my friends have watched it all. So I'm watching it, like, years after this stuff has happened, but it's just like a mindless. Like, you just see people. Like, I don't know how anyone lives the way that these people live. And, like, I don't mean that in a judgy way. I mean that in, like. I just grew up from such a different world that it's like, blows my mind that there's people out there like this.

[B]

Okay. I'll have to check it out. It's like. It's like a reality show.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's trashy. It's trash tv. And I used to love watching Jersey Shore. Did you ever watch Jersey Shore?

[B]

No. I live in New Jersey. Okay. Every time I tell people from out of state, I'm from New Jersey. Oh, like the Jersey Shore? No. Okay. They are a fluke in the system. Most New Jersey people do not like them and are not like them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I never watched that show.

[A]

That's fair. And I've watched, like, most seasons of the Bachelor, like, from Inception. Like, I watched the very first season and then I stopped for a bit because it's literally the same thing where it's like, is he here for the right reasons? He's not here for the right reasons.

[B]

It's like the same make out, make out, drama, repeat. So I, Sarah and I love Naked and Afraid. We watch all of those.

[A]

I've never seen that.

[B]

It's like a survival show, but they're naked. It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's honestly insane.

[A]

I would be so scared that something was going to crawl up one of my holes.

[B]

I'm gripping that. That's going to be a new clip for the show.

[A]

That's honestly my biggest fear, watching, like, I don't think I can watch it out of, like, that fear alone.

[B]

I can't believe you just said that.

[A]

Is that not a normal fear? I felt like that was a very normal thing to think.

[B]

It's a normal fear. It's just the way that you said it, that was just, like, so blunt. I mean, to be fair, I think that does happen at times for anyone involved. You know, you can get, like, certain things. But, yeah, that just really caught me off guard. So we watched that. I watched Hell's Kitchen. Anything with Gordon Ramsay, I'm gonna watch. Like, not even a question. And I love a good documentary. Like, I just watched one on the Philadelphia mob because I live right outside of Philly, so there's a whole docuseries on Netflix about how brutal the Philadelphia mob was and how the FBI brought them to justice. I love that kind of stuff.

[A]

Oh, I like, I feel like I just need to clarify. I also enjoy highbrow TV as well. I'm currently watching Pluribus. Are you watching that?

[B]

No. Should I watch it? I've heard good things.

[A]

Okay. Pilot episode. One of the best pilots I've ever seen.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

Seriously.

[B]

Better than the morning show. Are you watching the morning show?

[A]

I am watching the morning show. It's kind of lost me a little bit this season.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

I feel like they're, like, throwing stuff in there, like, just to be dramatic at this point, and they've kind of lost the plot.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Oh, can I just tell you fun fact. I used to actually do a movie review podcast where I would just review TV shows and movies. Like my very first podcast ever. That was what I did. So I can talk movies. Also, Beecher's a filmmaker and teach, teaches movies, and so we dissect this stuff all the time. So I do watch, you know, good content, too.

[B]

Well, thank you for clarifying that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we all know why you're not gonna go on Naked and Afraid anytime soon, so thank you for also clarifying that. Okay, we're gonna get into our weird Christian Bleep in just a second here. Just a reminder, friends, that the New Evangelicals is the organization that sponsors and produces this show. Giving Tuesday is coming up. And as a nonprofit organization, we are trying to raise $10,000 for Giving Tuesday, which will be matched by an anonymous donor, equaling or totaling $20,000. This money is what makes this show and all of the other resources and media offerings completely accessible to people like you. So if you love the work of the Tim and April show, maybe you're in tne Connect. Maybe you listen to the Advocacy Hour or the new Evangelicals podcast. Giving Tuesday is a huge day for you to show support for the organization. And of course, all donations are tax deductible. Just a heads up on that. Okay. Should we try and get to where should we.

[A]

Yes, do that. But let's read our super chats real quick. I think a couple came in.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Get caught up.

[B]

Sorry, sorry. We have two. Here you go. Can you read that?

[A]

Yes. From Joseph Compton. Most people don't have the right frame of mind about going to church. They wear a mask instead of allowing people to pray for them. Completely agree. And this one super chat from Kid Doctor 13 fantasy novels for the win. I love fantasy novels so much.

[B]

All right, let's get into it.

[A]

We Christian shit.

[B]

Now, I do not say this often, but there's a good chance because we're going to play this video, YouTube will flag us and then demonetize this episode. So truly, any super chats will really help make up for that loss. But we had to share this. It's too good. Do you want to tee it up, April?

[A]

Yes. There is this video. The one we're going to play is the original. It's an AI video and an AI song.

[B]

You don't even know what you're in for.

[A]

You live on the Internet at all. I sang it a little bit earlier. It is an earworm. It has been stuck in my head for 48 hours. The song is called we are Charlie Kirk. It. It started off at. Someone posted this unironically. I've seen people also sing versions of this song or make videos to this song unironically, you know, because we've talked about Charlie Kirk and the whole martyrdom there and the. The problems with that. So there are those. But now the song's kind of taken on new life and people are just making really funny videos because it's AI. The song's AI and it's so serious. So serious.

[B]

Can I. Can I just play it?

[A]

Yeah. So if you're listening on podcasts, right? J.D. vance is singing the song.

[B]

Like an AI version of J.D. vance.

[A]

Yeah, an AI J.D. vance is singing it.

[B]

Honestly, though, you don't even need the visual. Once you hear the audio, you might swerve off the road. So just. Just drive safe if you're listening on podcast. Okay, here we go. Friends, without further ado, Charlie Kirk may have testified to.

[A]

That's the wrong video, wrong guy.

[B]

All that build up for nothing. I pulled the wrong one.

[A]

We can watch that video another time.

[B]

Another time. There's no time. Hold on. I hit the wrong one. My bad, guys. All that build up for nothing. Okay, this makes more sense. Okay, friends, here, here we go. Without further ado, we are Charlie Curb. We carry the flame we'll night for the gospel we'll honor his name we are Jolly Kirk his courage, our own together unbroken we'll make heaven known the battle is raging the darkness will fall we rise with the spirit we answer the call the truth is eternal the cross is our God With God as our captain we march side by side we are jolly curved we carry the flame. Enough. Enough.

[A]

I have walked around for the last two days on and off and literally preparing for this show. I couldn't stop.

[B]

You wouldn't stop yapping during pretty. Look, I. I hate that we are, like, cringing at a song made after a dead person. But, like, they are. These songs are so. This whole thing is so cringe. Like, this is a terrible AI rendition of a song. It just.

[A]

It's just the way that they have made him into this saint, martyr, like, person. I. Honestly, to me, it feels like it's almost cheapening his murder totally because, like, which is awful. We've condemned that multiple, multiple times.

[B]

Multiple times.

[A]

They're making him into this person that he was just not. And it's weird. Like, I can't imagine anyone else dying where someone would have made. I mean, of course, AI is relatively new, but I. I literally was trying to think, like, who else would have been like, we are. I mean, if Donald Trump died, they'd probably do, we are Donald Trump.

[B]

How about all the kids who die because of mass shootings in schools? Where's the songs for them? Like, it just. Look, no one is saying. Well, I should be clear. We're not saying, certainly that would happen to Charlie Kirk was somehow good or that he deserved it. No, that's not what we're saying. But what we are saying is it's very interesting to see what this mag, who this MAGA world memorializes and who they tend to just not give a shit about. Right. They're not singing songs or writing songs about the kids in Gaza that our tax dollars are. Are funding the genocide of. They're not singing songs about the kids lost to gun violence because we live in a dystopian nightmare. They're writing songs about a man who said if he sees a black pilot, his first thought is, boy, I hope he's qualified. They're singing songs about a black man, about a man who said that some black women don't have the brain power to have the jobs that they hold or prowling blacks. Or said that trans people are a middle finger to God. That's who they. Who said that he regrets that the Civil Rights act was passed. That's who they memorialize.

[A]

Well, and they started saying, we are Charlie Kirk. Like, well, before this AI totally video. Like, there's videos all over of people saying, we are Charlie Kirk. I am Charlie Kirk.

[B]

Yes. Which is kind of. I mean, telling, dude, you know? Yeah, it's just. It's very telling. It's very telling.

[A]

No, it is. Yeah.

[B]

Can I just play my favorite? Because obviously this song has been memed really hard. Can I just play my favorite meme that I found that has made me laugh so hard?

[A]

Yeah, please do.

[B]

This is the one I got.

[A]

If there's text, read it for a podcast audience.

[B]

Yeah. So the caption is. It says, me dropping off my grandkids in 2065.

[A]

And so he's in a car. He's about to roll up the window and play the song, and you're. Yeah.

[B]

All right, you kids have fun now. I'll just be waiting in the car listening to the music from my youth until y' all are ready. But I first saw that usually those kinds of. Of videos, like, it plays, like, some kind of, like, you know, emo song, like, Taking back Sunday. So when it played that one, I. I lost it. I was like, oh, my God, I'm dying. But anyway, I love meme culture song.

[A]

It's. I'm. It's very. It's very catchy, though. It's. I have not gotten it out of my head.

[B]

Well, dude, you know that AI topped the charts on Christian music, right? They're having a whole debate about, you know, if. If Christian songs can be. Can. Can be. Should. Should that, written by AI should top the charts because they're made by soulless entities that don't have a spirit inside of them.

[A]

AI can't sing Christian songs because they don't have a spirit.

[B]

Again, it's so interesting watching people now care about AI when it affects their industry. Like, where were you over the past couple of years? Like, we've all been concerned about AI guys, but now that it affects you, now that someone, now that AI is topping your charts and affecting your life, suddenly, you know, I actually like on.

[A]

My list of concerns, which is a lot, by the way. AI is definitely on there. But hell yeah, I have always, well before I thought that AI was going to be what it is today. I have always said please and thank you to my, my Google and my Alexa. Like I'm just like, you know, if AI does ever take over, they're going to know that I was one of the friendly humans.

[B]

Have you heard, do you, have you ever used like the ChatGPT audio feature, like the conversation where you can talk to it and it talks back to you? The voice, like the default voice is. It's, it has like, it has a tone to it that is like this thing sounds a little like. It's just the way she talks. It's a female voice.

[A]

It's scary.

[B]

It's actually very interesting.

[A]

I'm like, I think I've seen this. What is it? Film before. Like iRobot. Hello.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Anyway, anyway, friends, well listen, we are obviously we're off for the, for Thursday because of the holiday, but we are dropping a little Thanksgiving episode where we get all sappy and see how much we love you guys and are so grateful for all of you.

[A]

We tell the origins of how the Tim and April show came to be.

[B]

Yeah, so that's going to drop on Thursday on podcast and on YouTube. If you're a substack listener and want to hear it, please go to our podcast, the Tim and April show or our YouTube channel so you can watch or listen to it because it's not going to be a live episode, it's a pre record. But honestly, in case you don't listen to it, to be very clear, April and I truly are so grateful for all of the people who tune into our lives, who give super chats, who are in the comments and I just want to also highlight a special shout out to the folks over at Lincoln Square Media for getting us on their network and also for the audience there. It's been really cool meeting and seeing comments from different people of different walks of life who would not normally encounter our content. So we're really grateful that we are partnering with them and really grateful that you on the substack side are here showing up. It really means the world. It's a huge privilege that April and I get to do this, and we don't take it lightly. So thank you so much.

[A]

Completely agree. And with that, we are church.

[B]

No, Stop. Stop it. You ruined. We're done. Goodbye.

[A]

Have you gospel, Sam?