84. Prophetic Lies: The Shawn Bolz and Bethel Church Scandal

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Tim & April Show – Episode 84

"Prophetic Lies: The Shawn Bolz and Bethel Church Scandal"

Date: February 3, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Guest: Promise Backland (“EveWasFramed”, ex-Bethel worship leader, author of Gospel of Lies)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode unpacks the recent scandal involving Shawn Bolz, Bethel Church (Redding, CA), alleged abuse, spiritual manipulation, and the failures of church leadership to address harms within charismatic/evangelical circles. Through a detailed discussion with insider Promise Backland, the hosts connect this scandal to larger problems with church accountability and the interconnectedness of faith, politics, and power in American evangelical contexts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Scandal Overview

• The episode immediately dives into the current scandal rocking the charismatic side of evangelical Christianity, specifically at Bethel Church, Redding, CA, and the wider New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) network.
• The issue connects to Christian nationalism and toxic charismatic leadership (see [03:28]).

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2. Who is Bethel Church & Its Influence

Guest Context: Promise Backland, ex-evangelical, grew up and led worship at Bethel’s Supernatural School of Ministry (BSSM), bringing insider insight ([04:10], [05:52]).

Core Points:

• Bethel is a global mega-ministry known for charismatic practices, “supernatural” focus, and massive worship music influence (“If you are in church and they're playing songs other than hymns, you're probably hearing Bethel music.” – Promise, [05:52])
• Key leaders: Bill Johnson (founder), family, and prominent worship leaders (e.g., Sean Feucht, Kari Jobe, Cody Carnes).
• Direct ties to right-wing politics; e.g., photos laying hands on Donald Trump, ties to NAR and other political activists ([06:00]–[08:28]).
• The church is known for extreme supernatural claims (miraculous healings, gold dust, “grave soaking,” resurrection attempts like “Wake Up Olive”; see [09:03], [10:35]), and lack of accountability for extraordinary beliefs and practices.

Notable quote:

“What you’re going to find is a pattern with Bethel: there isn’t accountability.” — Promise ([11:12])

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3. Shawn Bolz: The ‘Prophet’ at the Center of the Scandal

Background:

• Bolz rose to prominence for dramatic displays of “prophetic words,” often citing people’s private details during services/events (names, birthdays, addresses)—“magic show” performances that deeply impressed followers ([13:12]–[15:11]).
• Trained under Paul Cain (disgraced for sexual abuse and blackmail), platformed by Bethel and NAR leaders.
• Bolz’s reputation built especially after the Azusa Now stadium event ([14:17]).

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4. The Exposé: Mike Winger’s Video

Summary:

• Christian YouTuber Mike Winger releases a 6-hour investigative video uncovering two main issues ([16:06], [16:46], [18:25]):
  • Alleged fraud/data-mining: Bolz’s “prophetic” revelations were reportedly researched using social media/Facebook, not divinely received ([16:46]).
  • Sexual misconduct: At least 10 male former staffers accuse Bolz of sexually predatory behavior (nudity, masturbation, grooming, pattern spanning years) ([28:44]–[31:25]).
• Victims followed Bolz’s “prophecies,” sometimes at great personal risk (e.g., marriages, financial ruin).

Notable quote:

“There were people that got married based off of prophetic words that Sean gave... There were people that invested their finances and lost everything...” — Promise ([18:42])

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5. Failures in Accountability: Leadership Complicity & Cover-up

• Texts/recordings confirm key leaders (Bill Johnson, Chris Vallotton, Che Ahn, Stacy Campbell) knew of both the fake prophetic claims and sexual misconduct since at least 2019 ([32:22]–[35:08]).
• Despite knowledge and internal warnings, Bethel’s public actions continued to platform Bolz (e.g., Bill Johnson on TBN in 2023 endorsing Bolz), while actual victims were ignored ([35:42]).

Notable quote:

“It’s not just some, like, 'Oh, wow, it all comes out so sad.'... People knew and this could have been stopped.” — Promise ([33:34])

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6. Critique of Mike Winger’s Role & Internal Church Infighting

• Winger isn’t a charismatic/NAR insider; he represents a theologically opposed faction (cessationist, complementarian, Turning Point USA faith guest) ([20:02]–[23:18]).
• The investigation's impact comes partly because it reached the conservative evangelical audience who would ignore critiques from ‘heretics’ or progressives ([26:10]).
• The episode contextualizes Christian nationalist alliances even among warring evangelical camps.

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7. The Church's Response: Botched and belated

First Response:

• Chris Vallotton (Bethel ‘prophet’) gives a rambling, vague, defensive sermon, blaming the difficulty of church leadership, minimizing responsibility, and claiming impossible expectations ([44:53]–[48:46]).
• Massive backlash in real time: “It was kind of like that moment when the kid is like, ‘the emperor’s not wearing any clothes’. Everyone else felt freedom to say something.” – Promise ([47:44])

Second (Written) Response:

• Bethel releases a statement and second Sunday address by Dan Fairley (lead pastor), Bill Johnson (founder), and Vallotton.
• Public admission of massive mishandling, apologies for not acting sooner or more visibly; credits alumni pressure and viral exposure for forcing their hand ([49:38]–[51:30]).
• Timeline issues exposed: they corroborated sexual allegations and fraud back in 2019 but took no meaningful action ([53:01]–[54:53]).

Notable quote:

“Privately, they were kind of deplatforming him, but something needed to be said publicly... Sean was still speaking in other churches with his own ministry.” — Promise ([55:39]–[55:44])

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8. Wider Systemic Problems

Culture of Honor/Protection:

• “Touch not God’s anointed” is embedded—questioning leaders is taboo, facilitating impunity ([40:48]).
• Teachings on faith, healing, and obedience to leadership foster vulnerability in young, disillusioned, or desperate adherents ([42:26]).

Celebrity/Idolatry:

• Christian celebrity culture further shields abusive leaders and disables healthy skepticism ([68:32]–[70:14]).

Grift, Repentance, & Return:

• Evangelicalism is critiqued as highly lucrative, with cycles of abuse, forced breaks, and quick returns under the guise of repentance ([56:27], [76:17], [81:52]).

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9. Connections to Politics & Christian Nationalism

• Bethel/NAR leadership is directly involved in political movements, with Che Ahn running for office, and Bill Johnson/Bethel music figures active in national GOP arena ([59:20]–[61:19]).
• This theological worldview “primes” adherents to accept authoritarianism, excuse even Trump’s abuses, and ignore their own instincts for authoritarian loyalty ([65:26]).

Notable quote:

“There is a logic to all of this, and the Venn diagram between this in Church World and this in MAGA... it’s the same circle.” — Tim ([82:13])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• [05:52] “If you are in church and...they’re playing songs other than hymns, you’re probably hearing Bethel music.” — Promise
• [11:12] “What you’re going to find is a pattern with Bethel: there isn’t accountability.” — Promise
• [18:42] “He had called out, like, a Doris Rhodes in the crowd... And how random that is.” — Promise
• [18:42] “There were people that got married based off of prophetic words that Sean gave... There were people that invested their finances and lost everything... they were told that’s what you do. You’re supposed to believe the prophets.” — Promise
• [35:08] “It’s one thing if this guy was acting alone... but people knew and this could have been stopped.” — Promise
• [40:48] “This culture of honor... just creates a culture where there’s no accountability and nobody’s responsible for their own actions.” — Promise
• [47:44] “...It was kind of like that moment when the kid is like, ‘the emperor’s not wearing any clothes.’ Everyone else felt freedom to say something.” — Promise
• [74:00] “If Bethel Church wants to truly repent and take accountability for the harm... they should release all of us from our NDAs.” – William Matthews (via Promise)
• [82:13] “...The Venn diagram between this in Church World and this in MAGA... it’s the same circle.” — Tim

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Memorable or Emotional Segments

• Wake Up Olive story ([09:03]–[09:38]): Shows the confounding, dangerous mixture of spiritual fervor and loss of reality.
• Listener/Host Testimony of Harm ([69:37]–[72:14]): April recounts her own experience in Bethel-influenced meetings, left to feel responsible for her father's death because of Bethel’s theology.
• Victim Impact Story ([38:26]): Example of a woman, Jubilee Dawn, pushed into an abusive marriage due to Bolz’s “prophecy.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamps | |---|---|---| | Introduction & overview | [00:00] – [04:00] | | Bethel background, guests’ experience | [04:10] – [09:03] | | Bethel supernatural claims | [09:03] – [12:08] | | Shawn Bolz exposé begins | [13:00] – [16:06] | | Data-mining fraud explanation | [16:06] – [18:25] | | Sexual misconduct allegations | [28:44] – [33:25] | | Leadership knowledge & cover-up | [33:25] – [36:20] | | Mike Winger’s evangelical context | [20:02] – [23:18]; [26:10] | | Bethel’s (bad) first response | [44:53] – [48:53] | | Bethel’s written apology | [49:38] – [53:29] | | Implications for evangelical culture | [65:26] – [68:32] | | Celeb culture & emotional harm stories | [68:32] – [72:14] | | William Matthews NDA call-out | [74:00] | | Political connections (Che Ahn, etc.) | [59:20] – [62:36] | | Final: what’s next for Bolz/church | [77:07] – [84:16] |

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Tone & Language

The tone is direct, informal, and candid—equal parts insider, critical, traumatized, and dryly humorous. The hosts and guest maintain empathy for victims, righteous anger at leadership, and a skeptical/critical stance toward the structures enabling harm, while poking fun at evangelical quirks.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its highly informed, painfully honest examination of how charismatic churches (like Bethel) and star “prophets” utilize both spiritual manipulation and institutional power, leading to cycles of abuse, failed accountability, and ongoing harm. It ties these religious issues directly to political power in America, offering sobering insights for both insiders and outsiders to evangelical culture.

If you care about the intersections of faith, power, politics, and accountability, this is a must-listen (or must-read) episode.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[B]

Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April. I am April A joy.

[C]

I'm Tim Whitaker.

[B]

These pre recorded episodes are always weird because we don't have like a specific start time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're just like go ahead, you go.

[C]

I just say I'm recording start.

[A]

I'm always like fixing my hair.

[B]

Anyway, welcome to the show. We. I think we just dive right into it because we're gonna take a break from the abuse of our government to talk about the abuse of the church.

[C]

That was good. There's a. You know, it's proof that you have a master's in journalism. It's obvious because you do this all the time. You have these amazing little segues. Brilliant. I agree.

[B]

Well, well, thank you, thank you.

[C]

From one abuse to the other.

[B]

Yeah. And honestly we used to talk about this stuff more when we did the recap before we started our own show. We would kind of talk about news in the Christian world and then honestly there's just so much news in general. Who's got the time? But we got the time today.

[C]

We did.

[B]

And we are joined by a very special guest who is going to be our expert, maybe our European correspondent if you will because she is coming to us from Finland.

[C]

International.

[B]

International correspondent.

[C]

Our senior international correspondent.

[B]

Senior international correspondent.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah, we're. We welcome. Promise Backland. She is an ex evangelical content creator and she is the author of the upcoming book Gospel of and you can pre order it now. She's also been on the show before because she co hosted with me when Tim was out last August.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Also you might know that was fun except for the.

[A]

Except the freezing activity. Yeah.

[B]

The live kept shutting off. She. What was I gonna say about you? I was just about to say something about you. Oh, you might know her too. As Eve was framed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because that is just your.

[A]

That was my thing. Yeah. Thanks guys so much for having me. That was such a incredible introduction and I love that now I'm your senior correspondent. International senior correspondent all the way. Probably the most official title I've ever held in my life. So here I am.

[C]

Amazing. Amazing.

[B]

So we are actually here to talk about. Now if you did not grow up religious at all, you have no idea who any of these people are or what we are talking about. But if you are in Christian circles, you've probably heard of this big scandal that is happening in the more charismatic side of the evangelical American Bubble, which we've talked about some, if you remember us talking about the new Apostolic Reformation, the NAR and Christian nationalism. There is a direct connection between this scandal that we're going to talk about and the NAR in Christian nationalism. So it's not completely unrelated to what we normally discuss.

[C]

And I recommend if people don't know who the NAR is, to go back to our January 6 episode with Matthew Taylor to kind of get the primer, because we don't have time to kind of go into the weeds on the NAR and this episode because there's so much. So you might be a little bit lost. So I recommend going back either on YouTube or on podcasts and checking that one out, because it will help you kind of make sense of why we're talking about this. And also, I mean, I would argue the gravity of what's happening currently in that world.

[B]

Yeah. And so we invited Promise on, because one, she's been making videos about this because the church that's kind of at the center of this scandal is Bethel Church out of Reading, California. And Promise used to be a worship leader at Bethel.

[A]

I was a worship leader at their school of ministry, which is called bssm, because obviously that's a really good thing to call your school of ministry. It stands for Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry. So, yeah, that's where I was at. And then my family has been, like, very involved with a lot of these leaders, including Sean Boltz, that we're going to talk about.

[C]

So, Promise, I will say that I'm a little bit jealous in a way, because as a professional drummer who played a lot of worship in the church, you know, playing at Bethel was like the place to play. It was at our elevation for me. So, you know, know, I followed, like, David Whitworth, who's a drummer, I think, still over there, and some other people. So I figured that you were all just rich and making tons of money leading worship for Bethel, so I'm surprised you gave up that lucrative gig.

[A]

Right? Yeah. No, I mean, there. It's funny. I was actually, you know, talking to some of the Bethel worship team people in the Bethel music, which they are making a lot of money, like, a lot of money over there. And so now people are like, you left to make money, and that's why you speak out. I'm like, no, I promise you, I would be actually comfortable if I had stayed on there. They're doing okay.

[B]

Yeah, no kidding. So Bethel Promised, would you like to just kind of give us an overview of Bethel, kind of like Their beliefs. Because you and I come from the similar world and that you and I were both charismatic. Bethel's very charismatic. But I feel like Bethel is even.

[C]

Up.

[B]

Yeah, it's a. It's a little more intense than the Pentecostal world that I came from. So if you want to just kind of give an overview of the kind of stuff you might encounter at Bethel.

[C]

Yeah, just like, like who Bethel is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Bethel. So they, they're a massive church and ministry. I think they have about 10,000 members in Reading, California. But then they also have obviously like online campuses all over the world. They have schools of ministry all over the world. And then they have Bethel music. If you are in church and you're, you know, they're playing songs other than hymns, you're probably hearing Bethel music. Unless they've decided. Decided specifically to ban Bethel music. So they are. Whether or not you know it, you probably have been exposed to them in some way or another. Another thing, you know, they are responsible for leaders like Sean Foyt. He came out of there. Yeah. And they are the ones that you'll also see in a lot of the pictures, especially in 2016, but also from 2020 in the white House laying hands on, praying for Donald Trump. They are oftentimes the whispering ear talking to people that are working with Trump. So they matter a lot behind the scenes. Even though, like you said, they're kind of this more niche group that's fully believes in healing and prophetic gifts, which I'm sure we're going to get into soon. And a bunch of other stuff. I mean it's called the supernatural school of ministry. So if it's supernatural, they believe in it. And to the point that it's. Yes, there's the picture.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

You'll see. So the lady in the red and then her husband right there smiling. That is Bill Johnson's son and daughter in law. So Bill Johnson is the guy that started Bethel Church and then a bunch of the. In fact, I actually used to lead worship with one of the guys in that picture that was my co leader.

[C]

There's Chris Akilila. That's crazy that he's there.

[A]

Chris Kilala Killallah. Sorry.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All of those guys in there, like half.

[B]

And there's Sean Freud too.

[C]

Yep, there's Sean to the right here.

[A]

Isn't that Carrie Jobe right there behind?

[B]

Kerry Jobe came from my alma mater, Dallas Baptist University.

[C]

For people who might not know who are outside the bubble, Kerry Jobe and her husband. I'm Breaking on his name. What's his name?

[B]

Is it Cody Karnes?

[C]

Yeah. And. And Brian Johnson and Jen. These are maybe like arguably four of the biggest, most influential names in the modern worship music industry with the songs that they've written and produced. So these are not just like some no name randos from a church. These are like heavy hitters who have immense sway. In fact, Kerry Jobe and Cody played at Charlie Kirk's funeral. They led worship there. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To give people some perspective.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So that's, that's Bethel. And they. The thing that's important to know too is that behind the scenes they are heavily involved in a lot of the other ministries, especially across the US the NAR type ministries. There's a lot of crossover that happens, whether publicly or just like that's who's all hanging out together. So it. They definitely don't exist in a vacuum.

[B]

And, and I just want to say too Bethel, they are. The stuff that they believe in is like, as long as you have enough faith, God will heal you.

[A]

They.

[B]

Do you remember the whole Wake Up Olive thing that happened back in.

[A]

Yeah, that happened right after I left. So that was like 2017, I think it was in 2017, 2018. A lot of my friends were involved in that, some of my family members and I remember watching that just like, oh my God, that would. I would have been part of that 24 hour worship team.

[C]

If you have a story behind there, most people might not know what we're talking about.

[A]

Wake Up Olive was one of the worship leaders there. Her daughter was, I think two and a half and just didn't wake up from a nap one day. It was really tragic.

[B]

It was sids.

[C]

It was horrible.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And so, but they, somebody told them that they should believe for her resurrection. And so they chose to keep her body in the morgue for I think it was three, four days. And they hosted 24, seven prayer and fasting and stuff at the church, which largely the students were doing to pray that she would be resurrected. They called it Wake Up Olive. The little girl's name was Olive. And it was really wild to watch and really heartbreaking because you see how like this family's grief, which grief never makes. It's always wild and crazy, but it was so taken advantage of and twisted and, and then of course then they, they still claim like, well, she's still like she was a seed, you know, for future healings for other people and resurrections and all that. So they still like find a way to twist It. But I watched a lot of people get negatively impacted by that because then it brought on this other weird layer of grief.

[C]

A couple other things I think they were known for, too, and this is. I was not in this world a whole lot, but I remember hearing about apparently gold dust coming from the ceiling as a sign of. Of the anointing, or I guess angels. I don't know. Maybe you can. You can explain that. And were they also the church that claimed someone's teeth became gold, or is that a different church? It's kind of hard to keep.

[A]

That happened all the time. No, that totally happened there. It happened. I mean, grave. So that was like, oh, grave soaking. The grave soaking was one of the things that they kind of, like, said wasn't really part of them, but it was their students going around laying on people's graves, saying that they were taking on the mantle of that person, like.

[B]

Soaking up the anointing.

[A]

What you're going to find is a pattern with Bethel is that there isn't accountability. And so you do have these stories of these crazy things, because they don't. They're just like, well, we. We're okay to disagree. And so people can be here teaching different things. And maybe the leaders agree and maybe they don't, but it's good to expose everybody. But then they don't follow up with like, hey, actually, this is a problem and this is harmful. But, yeah, the. The glory dust was totally a thing. There was also clouds, which, interestingly enough, coincided with when the air conditioning was coming on and stuff. There's people that have gone undercover and investigated all of this, tested the glitter. It's craft glitter. But, yes, they fully believe in that stuff. And I kept thinking when I was a kid, I would pray, God, please don't give me a gold tooth, because I thought that that would look weird on me, and I didn't want one, and I was afraid that it would happen. So that's my trauma.

[C]

Well, God answered your prayer, I guess we could say, right? I'm assuming no gold.

[A]

That's obviously why I don't have one now.

[C]

I think it's important. The reason why I think it's really key that you're highlighting this is because a lot of these folks who believe this stuff are embedded in our government now. You know, when you have people like Paula White and others who are kind of tied into this world, more broadly speaking, you're going to have people who believe in these things and believe that they're real and also believe the political ideals that this World holds of the other, of people being demonic or certain demonic strongholds being in certain places. And there's a real level of, I think, fervor. Right. And, and like zealotry that by the way, I was a part of too my own, you know, space in evangelicalism. But it's, we're not just talking about again, a random church down the street. These people have a lot of political power right now and that's why it really matters for sure.

[A]

Yes, it's, it's more than just this like interesting story and like, haha, look, evangelicals are being hypocritical again.

[B]

It's.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It actually impacts everybody all the time unfortunately right now in the US So.

[C]

Who is Sean Bowles? Yeah. What's going on with this?

[B]

Our story focuses on Sean Bowles.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So what happened is Mike Winger just put out a, I think actually a really well done kind of investigative, almost six hour long video where he lays out a lot of accusations toward Sean Boltz and brings together people that have been talking about this for years, but just didn't get enough traction on, you know, the things they were trying to talk about. And so who Sean Boltz is is this prophetic figure. They would call him prophet that. I think he trained under this guy named Paul Kane who interestingly enough was found to be essaying his employees and blackmailing them and stuff. But he was Sean Boltz's mentor and all that. And Sean was known for this prophetic gift where he would show up at churches or conferences or whatever and he would know the names of people, he would know their addresses, he would know their phone numbers, all these details about them. Then he would deliver some word from the Lord and people would really take him seriously because it was like this incredible magic show. How could he know these things? So a lot of leaders like Bill Johnson from Bethel started inviting him to all their stuff and they really platformed him and he grew a massive following from that. The main place that he got platformed, where things started taking off for him was Azusa. Now I don't know if you guys remember that happening. It was the big stadium thing. I don't remember when this was, but I was there. And Sean shows up and calls these people up out of the crowd and it's this miraculous thing. And he knows all these details and their names and their address and their number and what country they're from and all this stuff. And so people were freaking out and started following him. And he, he has still a very large platform because of that.

[C]

Okay, that's good to know. This is a picture of Sean. I think I have it pulled up here. I'll grab that real quick. It is.

[B]

That is a.

[C]

This guy.

[A]

There we go.

[C]

That's Sean, right?

[A]

Yeah. And he also has, like, I said, books. He's got a lot of, I guess, like, what would you call it, like a class you can purchase or things where it teaches you how to hear from God. And obviously his marketing for that is posting these clips of him getting these incredible prophetic words for people. And he's made. It seems he's made millions doing that based off of what we've heard reported and stuff, so. So he's built this large platform. He's had that going for him. I don't know if you guys want me to get into what happened and what came out with. With the video, but that's. That's who Sean is.

[C]

Should I give. Okay, April, Sorry.

[B]

I was gonna say. What were you gonna say?

[C]

No, you go first. I'm listening.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say, would it be.

[B]

Would it make sense to explain what happened and then show the clips of what Sean was doing? Or should we show what Sean was doing and then explain what happened?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I can give an intro for the clip if you want, because I think the clip is, like, really just a perfect example. Example. So in the video, Mike lays out that the first allegation, I guess is what we should call it, is that Sean was what they call data mining all of his prophetic words. He. It's interesting. His prophetic gifting, like, really took off in 2013, which Mike points out, is when the Facebook search engine, like, changes so that you can find all these things. And so there's tons of pieces of evidence like this, but this is one of the pieces of evidence that Sean was getting the information for people off of. Off of the Internet, whether that's Facebook or just searching in general.

[C]

Here we go. And how she's like your best friend, and I feel like God's just saying that everything that she prayed for and has prayed for is going to still come for the family. And I feel like the Lord's saying, you're going to start to see the manifestation of what you prayed for. You're going to start to see the reality. I wrote down January 27th. That's her birthday. Is there. Is there. I saw Psalm 105 over your family and read that later on. But did she or you ever live on a 105, like slaughterhouse or 105 something or does that make sense? For some reason, I saw the word slaughterhouse, but it wasn't bad. I know. It was a weird. It's a weird. I took the risk because he just tried to call out her address. He got it wrong, and now he's trying to recover everything else. Felt like it was, you know, connected to God. But I just. Just, you know, maybe. Maybe research that a little bit. If it's. If. If I miss that part, it's not a big deal. I just want to remind you guys, it was Sean Bowles idea for us to research that a little bit and research it. We did. Actually, it was Matthew Hartke who researched this. And I don't know if anybody before him did or not. He's the first I know of who researched this and posted it online. And he showed that there is actually a Doris Rhodes who lives on 105 Slaughterhouse, who lives in the same area as the other Doris Rhodes in the same areas as this. This event and everything, or where her Facebook says she lives. Excuse me. So there you go.

[A]

So he had called out, like, a Doris Rhodes in the crowd and then proceeds to go on and say, like, oh, does slaughterhouse mean something to you? Which is hilarious, because what a terrible prophetic word to get if that's not a. Actually, the street you live on is the word slaughterhouse.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And how random that is.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. So that's just one of many pieces of evidence that he was getting this information off of the Internet. And there's also another video that Mike put out recently about another prophet that I grew up around, Bob Hartley, and his son came forward revealing that he was doing the same thing. This is a pervasive issue. Yeah, of course they're going on like. Like, that's. To me, that's obvious. But when you're there, when you're in it, I'm sure you guys remember, like, you're primed for this stuff. You want to believe it, and you want to believe that God is, like, seeing you and talking to you. And so somebody says your address. You don't think, like, okay, is that really God? You're like, oh, that's the coolest thing ever. And now whatever they say next, like, I can't wait for this. What? What is it? And so what came out and what they talk about in the video is there were people that got married based off of prophetic words that Sean gave, like, that. There were people that invested their finances and lost everything they had based off of prophetic words from Sean. And like, sure, we can have the talk of should you actually make choices based off of prophetic words. But it doesn't matter. They were taught to. They were told that that's what you do. You follow through on what God tells you and you're supposed to believe the prophets. And you had Bill Johnson and Chris Ballatin and Cheon and all of these, you know, big names in the apostolic world saying, yes, trust him, he's great. We endorse his book. So people listen.

[B]

Should we explain who Mike Winger is in all of this?

[C]

Yeah, I didn't know the right time to drop that gem, but might be a good time because people might be thinking, oh, like, who's this Mike Winger guy? Sounds like a real, you know, top tier person I should follow. I don't recommend that. I will say that obviously this video is really important and Mike is a really good researcher. So I'm not taking away from this video that Mike put out that is actually bringing what seems like some really bad stuff to the light that was hidden by Bethel and other leaders in the NAR network, which we'll get into. So what I'm going to say here is separate from this, right, Anyone at any point can do things that are good, despite maybe some broader perspectives that you might not find helpful. So Mike Winger, and we've talked about this before April, but you know, we think about like evangelicalism is kind of separated into two, like main factions. You kind of people who believe that speaking in tongues and gifts of the spirit, more charismatic theology is, is happen, women can be leaders in church kind of vibe. Then you have like your other side that believes none of that is for today, like the charismatic gifts don't exist for today. Women should not be in leadership. And just broadly speaking, we can call them like charismatics and reformed type of people. Doug Wilson's a Christian nationalist, more in the reform camp, et cetera. Mike Winger, from everything I can tell, and I followed him for a little bit, now tends to lean more in that camp. They're more. He's more in the camp of like, the gifts don't exist for today, but women should not be pastors in church, etc. And in that world, despite there being a political unification around who they vote for and what policies they advocate for, there's actually a lot of infighting internally. And a lot of these people in the reform space, Mike Wingers, Alisa Childers, another name, Melissa Dougherty is another name and several others continually point out the bad theology of like especially hyper charismatic or NAR type of people. So here's the thing. I think what Mike did obviously is good and I encourage him to keep doing that. I would also encourage him not to overhear this, to take a look at his own tradition and maybe do some of the research on, oh, I don't know, John MacArthur. Right. Who had credible accusations of him covering up two pastors on his staff who sa their own children. Like, there's no six hour video from Mike on John MacArthur when that came out. Right. And so I think it's important to know that. I also think for our audience sake, just for us to do our due diligence, people should know that Mike is definitely someone. I have a graph here who will hang out with Turning Point usa. He was there at the last big America Fest. He was featured on the podcast For Turning Point USA's faith podcast called Strong Church. The guy on the left in this picture is Lucas Miles. He's the TP USA faith director. He wrote a book. Oh, I just happen to have it right here actually called Pagan Threat that is all about how we are. We are. It's just. It is what you think it is. I mean, it is confronting America's godless uprising. Yeah, pretty much. And how, you know, witchcraft and paganism is growing in America. So Mike is not. If you look at his content, you're not going to find anything like what April and I do or what Promise does in her own content. This is still someone in the Christian nationalist world doing some infighting and calling out what is a bad thing. That's the best way I can sum it up briefly.

[A]

Yeah, I think that was well said. I don't know. I learned about Mike Winger for the first time from these videos because this has been my hyper fixation the last couple of weeks is honestly being excited that these things are being exposed that I've been frustrated about for years because I was around it all and. But I'm learning. In fact, I went and saw like some of his most recent videos are like responses to my friends on TikTok and stuff. So I'm like, oh, like if we met in any other circumstance, we would not be on the same team. But on this issue, I'm thrilled that somebody from that world is doing that. But like you said. Yeah, keep up that energy, be consistent also. Yeah, there was none of his criticisms against these people is about their Christian nationalism. So that's not the issue. It's the like, well, theologically I disagree and like, hey, this abuse sucks. But yeah, there's other, like, there's all kinds of Stuff, So. And it's. I know he says this in the video. Like, it's wild that he's the one having to make this video. Like, somebody from the nar world should have made this video and should have done this. And some of them were, but they just didn't have an audience. But, yeah, the whole. It's so interesting, like, where you draw lines when it's like, okay, thank you. You're doing this thing. We want to help get the word out there, but, like, we also don't want to promote the very thing we're, you know, speaking out against, like, Christian nationalism. Hi, my name is Emily. I'm from Cocoa, Florida, and I decided to donate and follow the nube evangelical page because I believe in the work that they're doing. I think it's important to create a healthy environment where people are comfortable asking hard questions about, you know, their existence and their religion. And I'm spiritual, but not religious. But I do believe there's, like, a fundamental truth. There is a fundamental reality where we all come from, where the universe comes from. Totally agree that there's something going on. You know what I mean? But beyond that, I don't know. I don't have the answers. And to me, that's given me a lot of freedom to kind of explore my humanity how I want, instead of being bogged down by the fear tactics of Christianity and them telling me that I'm wrong for simply having human experiences and human feelings and wanting to explore those. So, yeah, it's. We keep talking about it. If people are getting upset about it, that means we got to keep talking about it. Let's bridge the divide, communicate. Let's try to reduce our misunderstandings of each other and just all come together to realize we're all human. We're all here on this earth together. And instead of fighting about which religion is right, maybe we could come together to make the world we live on a better place. Why can't we make heaven on Earth? Why are we all waiting to get off of Earth?

[C]

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. I do think, as I was processing what you were saying, Promise. I do think, in a way, it's actually good that a Mike Winger type did this video, because if. If you did this video or if me and April did this video, the people who need to listen to it would not listen to it. Right. We're reprobates. We are. We are. We're heretics. We are bad people because we think that our gay neighbors should have full rights, you know, around the world. So it probably wouldn't have landed the way that it lands because Mike did it because he has so much clout with that conservative evangelical world.

[A]

I totally agree. And he's even having trouble being taken seriously by the people in the even more niche part of the charismatic world because they don't think that he's, you know, whatever kind of supernatural enough for them. So it goes both ways. Yeah. And like, I've left some comments on some of the stuff saying like, that I went to BSSM and all this, and then people like, well, I just went to your profile. I saw you're an atheist, so nothing you're saying about this matters. And it's like, okay, see, you just get dismissed for it. So. And I also. I do want to say something I really appreciated that Mike did in this video is he made it clear over and over, first of all, he didn't monetize the video, which part of me was like, damn, I wish you would have so that you could have, like, donated that towards something for the victims. But he did say throughout the video over and over again, if you are a victim, not only of Sean Boltz, but of any of this kind of stuff, and you want to get counseling, now, here's what I'm concerned about. Do you get to, like, can you go to a therapist, or does it have to be their counselor? He did say that they. His ministry would be willing to pay for counseling, therapy, whatever. And if they get to choose the source of that, then I think that's amazing. That is what people should do that are uncovering this stuff is they should be offering, like, care for the victims. Because we also see a lot of people that will come out and expose this stuff and then like, okay, they don't care about the victims at the end of the day. So that was a good sign that I'm. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt on that. I think that's cool that he did that.

[C]

Absolutely. I'm with you. So where do you want to go from here, April?

[B]

Well, he has other allegations against him, so I guess let's. He's been accused of these things for years. Right. And that not just spiritual abuse, but also some sexual assault allegations. Correct?

[A]

Right. So people have known about a lot of this. Most of it, I think since 2019 is the really scary and sad part. And most of the scandal is surrounding the fact that people knew and didn't do anything. But the other half, so, you know, the prophetic words were fraud. And then, oh, my light just died. Sorry about that.

[C]

That's okay.

[A]

It's probably just gonna be dark. We still see you now. Just sit and then sit in the dark. So the other allegations that came out was, I think at least 10 guys that have worked for Sean in the past over different periods of time have come forward and shared their stories that are all extremely similar. And one of them I actually knew put out his own video detailing everything. And he worked for Sean for, like, seven or eight years. And what Sean would do is he had a pattern of. He would have somebody travel with him to go speak at a conference or do whatever he's doing. He would have them share a hotel room with him and say that it was for budget issues, and he would refuse to wear clothes. That would be how he would start off. He just wanted to walk around naked and was like, what. That's what dudes do. Like, locker room kind of vibes is how he was trying to, you know, paint it. And then he would. I don't know if I should say, like, trigger. Trigger warning, I guess, for people about this, because we are talking about essay. He would. So that was, like, how he would start grooming them, and then he would masturbate in front of them and act like that was totally fine and normal and. And tell them, like, things like, well, that's just how you have to relax and stuff. And if they would say that they had a problem, he would tell them that they were, like, being religious about it and, oh, my God, just on and on and on, like, showering in front of all kinds. I can't remember the exact details, of course, this is all alleged or whatever, but all of these stories are matching each other. And Mike is, you know, willing to put his neck out saying that these things happened. And like I said, one of the victims put out his own whole long video, and he details it and even dealt with some lawsuits because of it and ended up winning them, but. Or at least not losing them. Something like that. But yeah. So he was grooming these guys and trying to have these, like, sexual interactions. One of the guys even said that, like, one time he. He. Sean got in the car with him and started masturbating in the car in front of him and acting like, that's totally normal, like, that is crazy. And tried to pass it off as like a religious spirit kind of thing, which is like, I'm sorry, I'm an atheist. I hang out with a lot of atheists. We're not. We don't consider ourselves, most of us don't consider us ourselves, spiritual. Nobody is getting in a car and like touching themselves or exposing. Like, that's not a religious spirit thing. That's literally essaying somebody that's sexually harassing somebody. So it's.

[C]

I just want to corroborate what you're saying. I found a summary of like Mike's six hour long video. And in the video he does say he talked to several victims. And pretty much what you said is true. You know, walking around naked in front of Ben, it was masturbating in front of them. It was saying that I'm a prophet, I need a release. Like just really gross, icky things. And honestly, you know, I'm thinking about now Ravi Zacharias, right?

[B]

Yeah, I was just thinking of him, right?

[C]

His accusations, what he would say to his victims was very similar. Like it's, you know, it's hard doing this work kind of vibe. And I'm thinking also about Michael Tate. A lot of the same vibes around what he would do with young men, some of which who are underage at the time. Same kind of profile, right? We're just playing around, we're just naked. Then we get into more and more sexual territory over and over again. So there's definitely a pattern, it seems like with these men in leadership or in spiritual authority who have like this predatory side of them that kind of comes out over time.

[A]

And Mike Bickle from International House of Prayer was also part of like Sean's whole group and who Sean would go hang out with. And Mike Bickle was doing that same thing, using his quote, prophetic gifting to tell women that God told him they were going to marry him one day. So they needed to go ahead and be like, building some kind of intimacy and that's how he would groom them. Then there was another prophetic leader back during like Paul Kane's days, Bob Jones, who like one time gave a prophetic word to these, to this mom and daughter that he was supposed to like, touch their breasts and every, like in the prophetic word and molested them and like, wow, has this whole thing. So this is a. And they all have been, you know, under each other's covering or mentoring each other or ministering together, and they're doing the exact same stuff over and over again. So it's, it's Already gross. I think the. The prophetic fraud. It's already gross. The, like, what he's doing to other people. But then he. The way they all mix it together is really, really messed up because that's. That's religious abuse and every other kind of abuse combined.

[B]

I think Ravi Zacharias, too, told one of his victims that if she told anyone, she'd be responsible for millions of souls going to hell.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And that's the underlying thing. Like, I remember even being told this stuff about nothing this serious, but other things like, well, we don't want to say that about that leader because it's actually, you know, putting a mark, putting a stain on the entire body of Christ when we do that. And you have to protect Jesus reputation. Like, that's something that needed to be protected. And that is what I think was the central theme of Mike's whole video is the really big scandal that came out. In that video, he had screenshots of text messages. He had voice recordings of different leaders, like Patricia King, or not Patricia King, sorry, Stacy Campbell. She's one of the prophetic people in that world. Text messages from Chris Valatin revealing at different times across the years that they've all known. All of these leaders have known. Sean has been a problem. He's been like this pebble in their shoe that they're trying to keep under wraps this whole time. And that's what's really, really sick. Like, it's one thing that this guy was just acting alone and nobody knew. And wow, it all comes out so sad. That's already terrible. But people knew and this could have been stopped. They. They quietly de. Platformed him in some ways. But then Bill Johnson in 2023, this is years after everybody's known, after Bill has talked to one of the victims and the victim has told his story and they had what he thought was, like, this nice time together. Bill then still chooses to go on tbn, sit next to Sean and speak highly of Sean's character and endorse his book. So this isn't just some, like, oh.

[B]

When you say they knew, are you saying they knew about the. Like the fake prophetic words or about the assault allegations or both?

[A]

They knew about both. From what. From what we can tell. And I think Chris even says. Actually, I think Chris said the last thing he said was he can't really remember, but the timeline. Yes, I know from the victims that they had been telling them these things. So there are. There are at least some period. There is at least some period of time where they knew about both and. And still continued to do nothing about it, essentially.

[C]

And I think it's worth more of that. Yeah, I think it's worth highlighting that we're not talking about, like, you know, hey, this guy was kind of mean to me one day. Okay. You know, we're talking about, like, serious accusations of abuse. Even if they were fabricated, you still need to treat them as the real thing and do an investigation and do the right thing to make sure that this person is either telling the truth or lying. And of course, statistically, we know like, 95% of people who come forward with abuse allegations are not lying. The number of people who fabricate it is so low. Right. And so I think that's what makes this so disturbing is that, wow, sorry.

[B]

I didn't know my volume.

[C]

I am not going to edit that far now. We got to keep it.

[B]

That was the Holy Spirit.

[C]

That's funny. But, you know, these are real sexual abuse allegations are some of the most heinous things that could happen to another human being. Right. They are. This is not like minor stuff. This is not trivial stuff. It's not, hey, we had a disagreement, and Sean said the wrong thing at the wrong time. This is like violating someone in one of the worst ways on top of right, them. Sean having credible accusations that he is faking his prophetic gift that people like Bill Johnson and many others believe is a real thing. So the fact that they knew that there were serious allegations from numerous people and still publicly at least, presented Sean as like, hey, he's great. No problems here. That's, That's. That's what is. So it's. It's both believable and yet unbelievable at the same exact time, if that makes sense.

[B]

I want, I want to point out, too, if you're not from this world, you may not think that the spiritual, like the faking of the prophetic word is that egregious because, like, what harm could really come from that? Because you should be smarter. But I just want to say, like, when you're in this world, like Promise mentioned earlier, you're taught to take what someone says from the pulpit as the word of God. And then you're taught too not to touch God's anointed. You don't question what the authority of God through the pastor is saying to you. And just to show the level of trauma that that can cause, there's a girl online, I'm mutuals with her. Her name's Jubilee dawn, and she's one of the victims of the fake Prophetic words that Sean gave. Sean told her. Then I guess they were just dating at the time, told her ex husband that he was supposed to marry her, that God was giving Jubilee to her ex husband, and her ex husband ended up being super abusive, almost killing her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, like, there. There's, like, long. Even beyond the actual assault that Sean did himself, allegedly.

[A]

The, like, the, like.

[B]

Jubilee almost died from a prophetic word.

[A]

That she believed was from God.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

He was doing this everywhere. Well, and it's also come out, like, people with finances, things like that were happening when he was giving words. And here's what I know about all of those guys, too. They all need funding because they want more money. And so what they often do is they will, like, you know, they hear about some wealthy couple that started showing up at church, and suddenly God has a lot of words for them. I can only imagine, like, there's no way. If Sean was doing this to your average person, there's no way he, like, he did it to Bill Johnson himself. He, like, went and found his. Bill Johnson's deceased father's, like, past address information and, like, wow, pretended like God revealed to him how to get to his house and all this stuff and gave Bill this word that deeply impacted Bill, which I think is part of why Bill couldn't let go of the situation because it was personal to him. But I can only imagine what has happened that we don't know. There's no way that wasn't used to coerce other people into other things, too. Not just sa. But, yeah, it's wild how many people knew and didn't do anything. But that's part of the culture. Bethel has this teaching. It's this whole culture of honor that they talk about. And it's what you were saying, April. The whole thing is touch not thine anointed. We have to be giving honor to those around us. So we don't, like, find. They always say, like, dig out the gold and call out the gold in somebody. So even if you hate 99% of what they said, like, find the 1% of something that, like, which in theory sounds nice. And that's a good thing to use with, like, safe people and trusted people. But, like, they put students in a room and say, like, hey, we trust this guy. Here he is. And then you're, like, taught to call out the gold and just, you know, not say anything about the other 99% of trash that just came out of his mouth or the fact that maybe he was abusing somebody or something. Like that. So this culture of honor, actually what it does is just create a culture where there's no accountability and nobody's responsible for their own actions.

[C]

Yep. Yeah. I mean, I have found that there are broadly two types of people that really get involved in this world. And I say this as someone who was involved in this world. Either you're very, you're naturally a very passionate person, very zealous person, and you're, you tend to be like a young adult looking for what's next in my life. And there are these systems or non accredited universities. Right. Like there's master's commission, there's BSSM and many others that kind of get you into this world to like, you know, help you find what God has for you and those people. When you're 18, 19, 20, you are primed for seeing the people in authority as like untouchable and also just flawless. Right. You, you don't have the brain aware, the mental awareness yet to be able to decipher when things are really unhealthy or not. The other type of person I see a lot is people who are really desperate for help. And I say this as someone as well, who at one point had a really serious mental health crisis. And when I was going through it, I was looking to people, spiritual leaders, pastors, to give me anything to help, like just soothe the pain that I was going through mentally. And I, you know, that was pretty minor compared to what other, what many other folks go, go through, whether it's a physical thing or whatever else it could be. So you have people who are at the, at the bottom, you. Right, they are, they are primed for gripping onto anything that they can to find healing and help. And they walk right into the arms of these people who know how to manipulate them to get what they want out of them, earn their trust, and then, you know, either get all their money or whatever else it might be. And so there's, there's a, I think a common type of person that tends to gravitate to these spaces. And when they do, it's like feeding, you know, it's like feeding the sharks, frankly. I think in a lot of ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So absolutely. Okay. So these allegations had been known by a lot of people at Bethel for years. Mike Winger makes this video. When did he, when did this come out?

[A]

Nine days ago?

[B]

Yeah, it came out nine days ago. It has a million views on YouTube. So like, this is a big deal in these evangelical circles. So tell us now you've, you know, everything. So just give us the tea, unfortunately, on what has happened.

[A]

Yeah, it's such a, like, random thing to know about. And finally I'm like, oh, I can make use of this useless information that I had to, like, live with. It's something I can, like, finally, because my. My parents actually have been one of the ones, like, calling these people out and trying to bring attention to this and. And even going on to tell Chris and Bill that they need to do something on it. So it's like, the one thing I've been able to bond with them about is this is our common value, is caring about victims and stuff. So anyways, yes, I watched all of it. So that came out a couple days later. It's Sunday. We're all wondering, what is Bethel gonna do? So that night, Sunday night, they said that Chris was gonna speak. And here's what you have to know about, like, Bethel's culture in general. What I have noticed. I'll just say this is my personal opinion that I think a lot of people would agree with, is that Bill never does the dirty work. He is just, like, this nice, like, father, like, guy that's just so kind and compassionate. He makes you feel seen and heard, and just, like, you know, he does a great job just being passive. And Chris is always sent out to do his dirty work. So Chris, like, as soon as I heard that Chris is going to be speaking, I'm like, why Bill should be addressing this? Bill was the last one to publicly endorse him. Bill is the, like, the guy in all of this that really platformed him. But Chris comes out, and I saw a message, tell us who Chris was. Chris Valentin is basically, like, the prophet at Bethel. Him and Bill are the main guys behind Bethel.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And April and I were bonding over. We both have had purity week with Christ, Chris Valentin in the past. Chris believes, like, just to give you an idea, Chris believes that your hymen can be restored and your purity can be restored in that way. So he will, like, pray, things like that before marriage. God can make you a physical virgin.

[B]

Again for your husband.

[A]

Yes. So that's what we're dealing with here. But so Chris comes out this week, and Chris is the kind of. Like, as you can imagine, Chris is the kind of guy that just, like, he kind of externally processes everything. And it was the most atrocious response. Like, if you were a PR person, you would be watching this. Like, this is literally the opposite of every single thing you should say and do. I don't know if this is this clip from it that you were Gonna play or did it? Okay, yeah, yeah, you wanna play it? And then we can. Yeah, let's just play it.

[B]

We can talk about it.

[C]

All right, here we go. Something happens in church that's wrong, but it's not illegal. People have this idea that if you're Bill Johnson or Chris Valentin and you confront somebody, they're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm never going to do that again. And what if you confront someone and they say, I didn't do that? I don't have investigators. I don't have a court system that figures out that the person that says they're innocent isn't innocent. I have no process. I have me talking to them, and they go, I didn't do it. Well, Joanne says, you did. Well, I didn't. Okay, now what do I do? Well, five people said, you did it. They said, I did it. This isn't. There's no. I. I don't. I think there's, like, this idea that, like, leaders, spiritual leaders, have some sort of authority that they can press people into. And you go, we can't go to our church. If you do that. Great. There's 3,000 other churches I can go to. Are you following me?

[A]

And.

[C]

And there. And there's just, like, this idea that when you confront somebody, they're going to repent. And then if they don't, you should tell everybody. And by the way, you can't just tell the church, but. Because you're going to tell the whole world that the church has this major flaw. The people you're trying to lead to Christ, you're going to say, don't trust churches because they are made up of really broken people. 1 Timothy 5, 20. For those who persist. All right, well, let him. We can stop there.

[A]

Also, he opens the message with this whole, like, laying out how many people attend Bethel, how he doesn't even recognize most of the people at church on Sundays, how there's, like, millions. And he's like. And I don't know, like, is Jesus gonna. You know, am I gonna one day be like, oh, I was responsible for all these people? Like, I don't, you know, pastoring at this in this day and age, in the modern age is so difficult. He makes a brilliant case for not having megachurches.

[C]

Exactly. Hello. This has been my beef for decades now. Even when I was a fundamentalist, I'm like, this system is broken.

[A]

Yes. And that's the whole. And he says it there. He admits what I was saying earlier. They don't want to shine a light on the fact that they have an actual systemic issue. People shouldn't trust the church. Are you kidding me? Like, and they should be warned. He's making a great case for it the whole time. But he goes on, shares this horrific message.

[C]

Wow, that is horrible. I mean, that is bad. That's bad.

[A]

It's so bad. April, did you watch more or you saw that clip?

[B]

I just saw that clip. I don't know what else he said.

[A]

That's pretty much it. I mean, he goes into stories. The other thing is the whole. Also, I was watching this live, and so I'm sitting there looking at all the comments coming in, and I was so relieved because all of the comments were like, chris, I love you, but, like, I watched you guys for years, or I'm an alumni, but this is awful. Like, everybody finally got it. And it was kind of like that moment when the kid is like, the emperor's not wearing any clothes. And everybody else felt freedom to say something. Everybody was like, this is bullshit. This is not right. This is not how you address this. And there was almost nobody defending it because it was so bad. He goes on to make a case for how basically we should feel bad for abusers because they were abused in the past. And okay, cool. This is not the time to make. He was like, I was once a broken man. And so we have to cover for people and just excuse after excuse after excuse. So that happened. And the response was, so. I mean, everyone was like this. We won't settle for this. So I don't know if you want to go to the next part, but.

[B]

Yeah, go to the next part.

[C]

What's the next part?

[A]

So Bethel. Bethel then said, hey, we hear you guys. We are gonna have Dan Fairley, who is the lead pastor now. Like, he's the actual, like, day to day pastor.

[B]

So Bill Johnson passed it to Dan.

[A]

Yes. Bill is still, I guess, like the father of the house. I guess is the lingo they're using, maybe. And then Chris is like the prophet, and then Dan is like the pastor. So Dan barely.

[B]

Big house.

[A]

I mean, how that's stuck in my head now. Dan and Chris and Bill all put together like a letter each, basically. And so on this past Sunday, which I also watched live, it's like the most church I've attended in a long time.

[B]

They.

[A]

They went through and it was basically them kind of reading the letter. I've read the letter. I listened to the whole thing. It's. There's nothing. There's nothing unique to the message that wasn't in the statement, other than they were crying and when they were giving this message and Dan basically says, like, hey, we messed up. We handled this completely wrong.

[B]

Did we pull up a letter and.

[A]

Read some of it? Yeah, I can pull some of.

[C]

Boom.

[A]

Let me pull up my.

[B]

So they released this as a statement, too, after the service. So this is the second Sunday after Mike Winger's video posted, correct?

[A]

Yes. So this is basically like, hey, Chris just gave his message. So they say, here's some of the highlights. We are clear that we're not responsible for Sean's sin. He is. But we are equally clear that we are responsible for our sins, actions, and inactions after the fact. They go on to say, you know, the truth is we have hurt and scared people because we did not tell the truth enough early enough, long enough, or loud enough. And this is a just criticism. Our hearts are grieved and embarrassed when we sin or mess up publicly as we have. It's important to take the responsibility publicly, blah, blah, blah. So that's. That's all great. And he. They actually say in there, we want to especially thank our alumni. By God's grace, there are 18,000 of them all over the earth and many right here in the church. Frankly, it was their communication and agitation. And since then, 18 months ago, and since that drew our attention back and subsequently other national voices to the necessity of finally and appropriately addressing this. So basically, after that Mike Winger video, everybody just kind of came out saying, like, yes, you have to address this. You have to address this. And I. You know, they credited a lot of the alumni for pushing that as well. So it's like when they gave the gold thing. Yeah, that's what they teach.

[C]

They say in the statement, they were calling us to live up to what we taught them, calling out the gold in us. There it is. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

[A]

So they say that. And then Chris, who I actually feel a little bit bad for as somebody who, like, knew, you know, not new, but, you know, was around these people and his family is friends with them and stuff in that, again, like I said, he goes out. He's the guy that just always has his foot in his mouth and has had to make so many public apologies at this point. He's not afraid of. Yeah, he's not afraid of confrontation. He just says stuff. And he doesn't really. Like, that's already an issue. But then, so Chris gets up there very tearfully, you know, appears genuine to me, and says conveniently that the morning after he gave that message, he had an encounter with God and Realized that everything he said was not coming from the right place, like, no kidding, and apologizes and goes. This whole letter, he goes in to say, like, what they knew. When he says, shortly after the sexual allegations, some European church leaders came forward with evidence that Sean was using social media to get information for false words of knowledge. Danny and I then began reviewing his allegations along with the 14 evidence given to us regarding the integrity of Sean's prophetic ministry. And he says, Danny and I began a series of additional confrontations. I flew down to LA to confront Sean with my findings. He denied the allegations. You know, so he goes through and lists out the process. And that other guy I told you about that made his whole video, his name is Jeremy Boutroux, who's one of Sean's victims. He confirms all of this because he was working for Sean at the time and says, yeah, Chris flew in, they had a private meeting, all of that.

[C]

But this is. It says earlier that this is 20, 2019. And shortly after. Right, because in the first statement from Chris, he says, In 2019, allegations of sexual harassment came to us through a former member on Sean's team. Danny confronted Sean on this. He denied wrongdoing. After further investigation, which included speaking to three of Sean's former team members, the accusations were corroborated and showed that this was. Was a culture within Sean's team. So this is 2019 though, right? I'm not misreading that. This is almost six years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So Chris is saying that they had corroboration, which is different than what he said in that first clip of, like, well, anyone can come to me and say.

[B]

Earlier in the previous statement, what. Why did he say 18 months ago?

[A]

I'm not sure what happened then. I don't know. If some people started meeting with them, then I don't know what that part is about. Also, I do want to clarify something. The message that Chris. Chris gave that Sunday evening, the first thing that we heard from Bethel, he never said, this is about Sean. This is about the Mike Winger video. He kept it very vague, which I already thought was. I was like, okay, I already know this is going to be a load of BS because either confront the thing head on or don't talk about it at all. Because now what you're doing is covering even more. You don't want other people that don't know about it to go look it up. So you're not saying what you're speaking to. But then he. He confirms that is what the message was about by putting out this apology for the message.

[C]

I just don't know how if you have three of this person's team members corroborate what someone else said, how that is not immediate grounds for, like, dismissal for cutting off ties for public exposure. Like, what in his mind made him think, well, because he says later on that he gave Sean kind of, like a final warning that if he doesn't confess his sin, it would be far worse than repenting and doing the right thing. And I'm like, well, didn't that happen in 2019 or shortly after it, according to your own statement?

[A]

Right, right. No, none of it makes sense. And that's why I still don't think we're getting the whole. And I don't think we ever will get the whole, you know, story in that. There's clearly a fear behind publicly saying something because they. They privately hold people to stop going on his podcast. They privately told people to, like, pull his books. They, you know, and then still 2023, after all of that, you know, Bill goes on to endorse his book on tbn. But so privately, they were. They were kind of deplatforming him, but they. Something needed to be said publicly. Somebody needed to step forward and say, look, these are the things that have come out, and therefore, we don't feel comfortable endorsing anything this guy does anymore. And you shouldn't trust him either, because.

[B]

Sean was still speaking in other churches with his own ministry. Yeah.

[A]

And he still has a large. He was going on tbn. He was going around doing stuff. And I did. You know, I've heard that a lot of people have been threatened with lawsuits on Sean's end. And I don't know if that's the fear, but also, it can't be like, Chris Valatin drives, like, I can't remember if it's a Lamborghini. Something along those lines, Bill. And like, these people have. Geez, they have been highly favored and blessed by God. So.

[C]

And they tell us we deconstructed just so we can get rich and famous.

[A]

Right. Great. Also, yeah. Meanwhile, I'm like, cool. I need to, like, maybe pretend I got. I reconverted so people will start giving me money again.

[C]

Seriously. I'm like, yeah, there is a grift here of the prodigal son returning back to the fold that I probably could pull off.

[B]

The problem is, though, we can't just return to evangelicalism. We have to return to our Republicanism or it's not going to count.

[A]

I got a call turning Point and be like, hey, guys, I Could reconvert on stage.

[C]

No, no lie. Promise. No lie.

[A]

Michael Knowles could bring me back to the Lord and debate.

[B]

I could just be like, you would make so much money. Promise.

[C]

April and I have joked that, like, there is such a grift there to be. Like, I, I, I went woke and I came back. Here's the full story. It's like you would get paraded around that circuit make. I mean, look at freaking Riley Gaines for crying loud. It's ridiculous.

[B]

I honestly, I spend so much time. I mean, unless I'm angry if I just do like a quick little video sometimes I, I misspeak. But I'm like, so, like, paranoid that I'm gonna say something wrong. And if I do say something wrong.

[A]

I, like, pin a comment.

[B]

Like, I know, like, I meant to say this word. I said, like, I'm so hyper focused on, like, I don't want to say anything that is untrue that I could, like, I physically could not, like, lie. Like, I was literally just here thinking, how can someone do what Sean did? Like, how can you be so diabolical to know that you're lying and deceiving and manipulating so many, like, innocent people?

[A]

No, it's wild. Except it made a lot more sense to me when I listened to that guy, Jeremy Boutroux. He has a whole video where he kind of lays out what it was like being around Sean and his wife for seven years. And they sound like horrible people. I mean, just Sean is a jerk. Making racist jokes all the time, just being like a general ass to everybody. His wife was one of the, like, was the CIO CEO, something like that, and didn't work at all. Would just show up to get a check and then just like, spent all the money. And also, this is wild. This, this person says that when they started running out of money, Sean. And Sean ended up selling his, like, multimillion dollar home to one of the founders or of like two Black Lives Matter, but didn't want anybody to find out because he's like, obviously like, spoken out against it because he's hypocrisy is just wild.

[C]

Rich.

[A]

I just got a picture sent to me, an Instagram screenshot, April, I sent it to you, and it is Sean Boltz and his wife and a couple of others and Sean Foyt and his wife from just a month ago hanging out together for Christmas.

[C]

Text that to me, April.

[B]

I'll put it up. I'll send it to you right now.

[C]

It looks like Sean. Either I'm blocked by Sean or his profile is gone. I can't tell on Instagram.

[A]

He blocked me. Chris Valentin also blocked me, which I don't know why that was. Apparently I was blocked a long time ago. Maybe that was like a preemptive block because I've never spoken about him before, but.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And also to connect it to the modern Christian nationalism, too, we've mentioned Chaon. So Chaeyeon is running for governor of.

[A]

California, and Cheyenne is a lead pastor at or was. Or the. He started H Rock Church in Pasadena.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Big voice.

[C]

He's like. He's one of the NAR leaders right now. He's like, maybe one of the top three. Three or four, in my opinion, from what I understand.

[B]

Yes. And to just connect this. So Julie Royes, who also reports on a lot of church abuse, she. She wrote an article based on all of Mike Winger's findings and I think did a few additional digging, and she found an old podcast where Chayan was on with. On Sean Bull's podcast. And in it, Sean Bulls basically says that Cheon was his apostle. So, like, that he was. Or that he was under the authority, the spiritual authority of Cheon. And then Cheon during his governor. I don't know if his announcement, but it was some official governor thing. Do you have that video, Tim?

[C]

Yeah. Let me grab it. I have right here.

[B]

He says that Bill Johnson of Bethel is his pastor.

[C]

Here's the audio.

[B]

These levels. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

By the way, for those who don't know, I believe in accountability. We need to hold people in government accountable. And I think Bill Jones is my pastor. He is my apostle. And I just want to just really thank him for taking time out of his busy schedule. He's been gone almost the whole year. But he came from Dallas. It was at Brother Copeland's conference, and he cut his message short. He was supposed to. Did he say Brother Copeland? Kenneth.

[A]

Yes, as in Kenneth Copeland.

[B]

Another level of Delulu.

[A]

It's all in her mind.

[C]

And also, Bill Johnson during the 2020 election came out and said, of course the election was stolen. I had the video of him saying that. So Bill Johnson was a huge election denier, fully involved with all this.

[B]

He was also. And I made a clip of this, he was one of the people that was hinting to not take the COVID vaccine because of what that could mean for the end times. He said something from the pulpit along the lines of, now, I'm not saying that the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast, but I am saying it's a dress rehearsal for what is to Come. It was something along those lines.

[C]

Here's. By the way, here's the picture that you talked about.

[A]

Yeah. So Sean Foyt, I assume you guys have talked about him before. So that's Sean Boltz with the woman in the leopard cheetah print, whatever shirt that is. And this is just from. I think, December 15th is what this person says that sent me this. It's a screenshot from Instagram Stories. And that's Sean Foyt, who's the one, like, going around doing all the, like, let's all, you know, get Covid and sing about Jesus together and then call it persecution when people say, hey, maybe don't do that.

[C]

And also, he had a huge eruption, and people on his team came out and essentially said that this guy's misusing funds and, like, not being ethical with how he handles his money. It was a huge thing. It was actual, like, report that came out. So he's another one who has credible accusations of him missing out together.

[A]

That should tell you a lot.

[C]

The grift is so real. But promise, let me ask you this, because I think people might be. And I honestly go back and forth. Do you think you're Sean Foyt type or you're Chris Valentin type? Do you think that they are really sincere in what they believe and see all of their wealth as a sign of God's blessing? Or do they really. Are they really grifting people and think, yeah, I know this is all bs, but, hey, it makes me a lot of money? Like, what's your read on that?

[A]

It's so hard to say. I play that game all the time where I look back on these leaders that I was, like, in green rooms with, or, like, see Peter Wagner, like, teaching me how to order a steak the proper way and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, which ones of these do I think are really sincere? Because there are some that I know. Like, I'm like, there's enough things here where I think this person was like, me, where they sincerely believed, and then they kind of, like, lied to themselves about some stuff along the way to keep the narrative going.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I. I gotta think somebody like Chris, to me at least, has come across that way because he's been so genuinely, like, wrong outwardly, too, that I feel like I don't think he's good at hiding. It's kind of the messier ones where I'm like, I don't think you're that good at hiding if you weren't sincere about this. Like, yeah, he's like the type that will come out and be like, I doubting that God exists, and I'm like, having a mental breakdown over it and stuff like that. But you're like, Sean Boltz. That's somebody polished and manipulative and. And you know where I would. I. Obviously, I can't read his mind. If I had to guess, if I had to, like, place bets one way or the other. I don't think he believes this. He. There. He can't possibly. If he's getting his, like, blatantly going. Getting his words. It's one thing for a guy to stand up and say, God told me this. And it's like a dream he had that he just, like, puts a narrative to. It's another for you to go out and seek information, write it down, and then say that God told it to you when you got it off of your cell phone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So you know, you're lying at that point.

[A]

Yeah. At that point, we're dealing with somebody who's really, like, going out of their way to lie and manipulate to people. And once somebody is a liar in that way, it's really hard to trust that anything, even their, like, innermost intentions are genuine. And to me, Sean Foyt and the little bit of interactions I've ever had with him come also has that, like, it's. I just call it slimy. It's like this slimy. Like, you know, like your intuition where you're like, I don't think I really trust that person. Or, like, it doesn't. This is not just about, like, somebody in religious spaces. Like, I've met other people, and, like, they seem kind of grifty, and they seem like, I just don't trust this and this not getting a good vibe. And I would put Sean Foyt in that category of, like, this seems to be a calculated. Like, this person is not just lying to themselves. They're. They're making choices to lie to others along the way.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

The name Sean does not have a good track record.02. Yeah.

[A]

Depending on how you look at it. Yeah.

[C]

I think, you know, one of the reasons why it's really important that we bring this up is because I know in April, we get this a lot, especially whenever we go live on the sub sex side. Right. People who didn't grow up in this world, they're like, I don't get it. How do. How do these Christians vote for Trump? How do you support, you know, someone who is an adjudicated, you know, sexual assault person? And all these Other things. And this is how, this is how, like, because a lot of people are in this world, that primes them for the belief that the person in authority over them has been anointed by God and touched, not God's anointed. And that is an easy, it's not a far jump or leap to make from my pastor is speaking on behalf of God to, oh, my pastor told me that this person is going to save America. So I have to overlook even my maybe, maybe my own intuition of what I think about him, but still vote for him because this is the guy that my pastor tells me is good for the country. That's how it happens. And then there's a right wing media world that reinforces that propaganda 24 7. We're watching that happen with what happened in Minneapolis a few weeks ago with Alex Peretti being killed. April, you and I covered Ali Stuckey and how she gaslights her audience all day to not believe what's in front of them. So that's kind of, in my opinion, how the connection works of you have people who are just primed to believe. Don't trust what's in front of you. Trust what the people in authority are telling you.

[B]

Right. You're also not, not just taught not to trust your own eyes, but not to trust your own instincts. Because we are all inherently evil, born into sin. And we can't trust like even our most basic natural human desire because that is sinful.

[C]

Like your empathy. Don't trust your empathy.

[A]

Crazy. Well, another way that this works so well in the NRA is because it's not like, like they won't even say, like all of them will. They'll be like, that's something. Like we're not part of that or whatever it is. Yes. Thank you, Nar. Thanks. The other, not the narrative.

[B]

Different, different problem.

[A]

The nra. So these, this new apostolic reformation group, all of these like apostles and prophets and everything, the way that they also end up getting really successful is that they're like this multi headed monster where they can work together and platform each other and build their own platforms that way. And then as soon as you have this guy like Sean Boltz, then they can just be like, oh, like whack a mole. Like, well, he's not. We're actually not like that. He just was hanging out like he.

[C]

Was never on staff here. He was never in leadership here.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And they can all say that about each other. So it's, it always works to their benefit when they're on. Like when somebody's looking good. And they have them come on and they switch. They trade platforms, and you come speak at my church, I'll speak at yours. You come on my show, I'll come on yours. And then they can easily just dismiss that person and be like, oh, well, we never. Like, we weren't really associated with them.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so that's how. Because they don't actually have an accountability system or an actual hierarchy, which is really funny because there's also a lot of behind the scenes, like, competitiveness and jealousy issues that go on there, which leads to all these, like, you know, fractures and then people finally willing to expose things.

[C]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

I want to point out, too, like, the. The celebrity Christian culture, too. Like, even beyond just viewing these people as spiritual authorities, there is some serious fangirling that goes on. Like, I personally have issues with Bethel for. Because shortly after my dad died of cancer, I was at Regent University, which is Pat Robertson School, and they had some fire night. I don't remember what it was called, but fire was in the title. Well, there was a fire tunnel, but it was. No, it was called, like, embrace the Fire. It wasn't inquire the fire, but anyway, it doesn't matter. Fire desire, something like that. And Bill Johnson was speaking, and I actually had never heard of Bill Johnson before because I'd heard of Bethel, but I'm not from Reading. I didn't watch you have Bill stuff, so I didn't know who he was. I was standing in line to go to this service because I was, like, desperate for, like, a. Just a new interaction with God because my dad had just died. And I was feeling like I was in this.

[A]

The.

[B]

The dark night of the soul, as a lot of pastors would say it, right? And I was just like, I just need a fresh touch from God. So I go to this thing, desperate and grieving, and I'm in line, and this man and a couple other, like, big guys in suits literally brush, like, right in front of me and, like, kind of brushes my shoulder. And I had no idea who they were. And then the woman behind me was like, oh, my gosh. You brush shoulders with Bill Johnson. I was like, oh, cool. Oh, my God. And she was like, I would never wash that shoulder. And I remember being like, this is weird. I have no idea who that is.

[A]

Touch his cloak.

[C]

Touch the head of his cloak.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And the pre culture is huge.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then that just takes when you're fangirling beyond the spiritual, like, side of it, when you are looking up to Someone in a parasocial sort of way, your guard is already not to where it would be when they say something to you. You're already not going to be acting and like listening to your own instincts. But he gets up and he says something like paraphrasing. Cause it was a long service, but ended up being a healing service, which is not what you wanna go to. When your dad just died of cancer and you already had Christians telling you, well, your dad only died because God. Cause you didn't have enough faith or because you had some sort of unresolved sin. And basically that was the message that was said that night, was that God always wants to heal you. And if God doesn't heal you, it's because of something you're doing wrong in your life. And I remember being so pissed just like being in that service. And then he brought up his team and they went down the line. Just to give you an example of the stuff that they do at Bethel, he brought up his team and he went down the line. He was like, what ailment are you feeling? And he gave him the mic. They say, I'm sitting. Someone has a problem in their right elbow. And then Bill would be like, okay, does anyone here have pain in their right elbow? And then like five people stand up, he's like, okay, everyone around those five people, lay hands on them. And we're going to pray that the pain, pain and the right elbow goes away. And they did this for so many different ailments. And there were several times where he'd be like, okay, who here is healed? After the prayer. And if no one raised their hand, he's like, all right, we're gonna pray again. And he would do it like three or four times. And then by the end, if no one still raised their hand, he'd be like, okay, well, who feels that maybe God started a movement or something? And then someone would raise their hand and they would move on. And to tell you, I was livid. Like, honestly, the Pentecostal beliefs were the first thing that I started deconstructing because I knew that I could not have had more faith for God to heal my dad.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And then God just didn't. So I'm like, well, that's wrong. I know that's not always true.

[C]

Right, well.

[A]

And the wild thing, Bill's wife just died of cancer a couple of years ago that their whole church was praying for her healing. His son has been deaf his entire life. And they've pray. I was there all the time when he was, you Know, they're praying for him and stuff. So these people. The cognitive dissonance is insane. And there's always a reason, there's always a story, and it's everybody else's fault. Except for, of course, it wasn't his wife's fault. Of course it's not his son's fault that he, you know, that they didn't get their healing.

[B]

And to be fair, that sermon was years before his wife.

[C]

Well, it's also.

[A]

But he's still preaching that. So, like, that's how, like, with Olive and everything. So that's still happening. The celebrity culture thing is fully happening there. That's part of my deconstruction, is I was, you know, leading worship at the school, had only been doing that for a few months. I had people coming up asking me to sign their Bible. Like, I actually have a video of one of them coming up to ask me to, like, pray, to, like, give them my mantle. And at the time, I was doubting that a God exists at all. And I'm like, and yet you. Your discernment is so off that you can't even tell that I'm faking every single moment of this. You know? Right.

[C]

Wow, wow, wow. Well, I guess I told you I.

[B]

Was gonna get triggered on this episode.

[C]

No. I mean, yeah. This is deeply personal.

[A]

I would, too, if I were you. That's awesome.

[C]

100%. I mean, it makes complete sense. I guess we'll. We'll keep our tabs on how this all shakes out. It will be interesting to see if. If the redemption arc ever happens. You know, the class.

[B]

Can we share?

[C]

He's restored to ministry arc, but with, like, no actual accountability.

[B]

Real quick, can we read William Matthews tweet?

[A]

Oh, yes. I just retweeted. Reposted that because, yeah, William Matthews was.

[B]

He was a worship leader at Bethel for a while, right?

[A]

So.

[B]

So he tweeted out. I sent you the link, Tim, if you want to pull it up. But he said if Bethel Church wants to truly repent and take accountability for the harm that they have caused, then they should release all of us from our NDAs.

[C]

Ooh, shots fired.

[A]

And, like, why. Why does a church have NDAs? Like, imagine Jesus. Imagine Jesus is, like, so glad to have you in my house. Just sign this real quick, because we have some trade secrets.

[B]

We know all of the 12 discovery.

[C]

Signed NDAs, except for Judas, obviously.

[B]

Yeah, he just broke his NDA.

[A]

So wild.

[C]

We'll see. I mean, look, anything can happen. But I would just say that the track record in evangelicalism Broadly speaking, is not promising. I mean, look at Todd MacArthur.

[A]

Bentley. Yeah, John MacArthur. Todd Bentley.

[C]

Yeah. John MacArthur. I mean, these allegations are real. Julia Royce has all the receipts. And when he died a year ago, I mean, people, I think, maybe including Mike, definitely Ali Stuckey. What a gospel hero. What a man of God, his legacy. I'm like, this dude says that slavery can be great if you have the right master. This guy covered up for his pastors. This guy said, yeah, yeah, I have that video of him saying that. And this is who they're celebrating. So I just. I don't have a lot of hope. Unfortunately, after doing this for five plus years, you know, Bethel or any one of these institutions or even networks is going to really do a deep, hard look in the mirror and really reform, like, how they operate, because it's too lucrative. The money is there, the power is there. They have access to the President. Their worship leaders are getting sent to the White House to pray over Trump. In their mind, God has. God has positioned them for such a time as this, right? God has given them an anointing to speak truth to power in their mind. Why would they ever change that if one guy who wasn't even on their staff did some bad things one time? That's probably how they're thinking about it internally, in my opinion.

[A]

I agree. And I. I think that the Sean thing has kind of thrown a wrench in all of this for them, because typically when this happens, eventually, like, the guy that is being accused will be like, well, yeah, but I'm just, like, struggling in my walk and all this stuff. And they'll, like, confess and. And then they'll, you know, like you said, reform them and put them back in ministry somewhere else. Mike Bickle is trying to be back in ministry right now as we. It's crazy. And. And. But people are like, yeah, but they repented. And with Sean. Sean won't confess to anything. Like, he. So far, I don't know if we wanted to, like before, I don't know if you guys were wrapping up, but there was. There is that one email that's leaked that people think Sean sent out, which is kind of the close. That's all we've heard from Sean in all of this.

[C]

I don't know that.

[B]

Hold on. You sent it to me?

[A]

I sent it to you. I can.

[B]

I need to give you Tim's number.

[A]

Do I?

[C]

Oh, well, while April's doing that, I just want to reinforce what you're saying here. Promise. Because I also think about. Oh, my gosh, I'M blanking on his name. He has the mustache and he's a messianic Jewish person. And he had not, Not. No, not, not.

[B]

Oh, Khan. Jonathan Cahn.

[C]

Not Jonathan Cahn. The other one.

[A]

The fact that there's so many that we can sit here naming.

[C]

He was platformed at Mercy Culture recently. He had incredible accusations that he grabbed a woman's butt, that he was, again, harassing employees. And he's back to ministry. He's back to ministry. Like, no big deal. Paraded around the charismatic circuit as just not a big issue. Michael Brown. Michael Brown. Michael Brown.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's no big deal.

[C]

Yeah. Michael Brown. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And oftentimes those are some of the, like, less sinister. Like I said, like, there's the guys that are just, like, messy and, like, kind of, kind of mildly creepy and weird. And then you have the, like, sinister, like, planning out, like, layers and layers. It's all bad, but it just shows, like, how. How deep this all goes.

[C]

Yep, Yep.

[A]

Do you want me to read this email that is going around?

[B]

Sure. And to be clear, I looked it up and Sean Bull's his Twitter account private. And as far as I can tell, he's made no public statement since all this has come out.

[C]

Let me grab the email up here that April sent me.

[A]

So this email is saying, supposedly this email went out. Like, we don't know to how many, but some people on his email list, and it says, hello, friends. In recent days, renewed attention has surfaced from my life, around my life and ministry, much of it revisiting matters first addressed years ago. Since 2019, I have been in a serious, ongoing process of personal growth and accountability, supported by counseling, pastoral care, professional guidance, my family, and leadership oversight. This work has been real, sustained and important to me. I won't engage in online narratives or speculation. What I can say is that I have been intentional about pursuing growth, accountability, and health in my life. Given the current climate, I've decided to step back from public ministry leadership and enter a season of sabbatical so this work can continue with care and integrity. I'm thankful for those who walked this journey with us and ask for GR and privacy in this season. Everything about this is insane.

[C]

Insane.

[A]

First of all, like, you have. You have people accusing you of sa and you're like, I've been really working on my personal growth.

[B]

Like, oh, my gosh.

[A]

Also, what I want to know what pastors, I guess, is Sean Foyt, like, giving him therapy? Like, is that, like, right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Right. Mike Bake support group for these people.

[B]

And to clarify, we, we. This is just what peop. A few people online have said they got an email from Sean, right? So it's not like we don't fully.

[A]

We don't know for sure, but it does sound like I would, it would be really interesting if that was falsified because I don't know why somebody would make this. This sounds like what, this is what Sean has said in 2019. Apparently they put something on their website that was like things were doing, like, they didn't actually say what they were addressing, but they were like new changes we're going to be making. And it was like, Sean will no longer give or we will no longer give prophetic words, including people's names and, you know, addresses public, like, things like that. So, like, they've kind of subtly done little things over the years. But also now he's going to enter a season of sabbatical, which what backs that up is, like you said, April, everything's going, getting privated. Nothing new is being posted, right? So this is what I think. He's going to back away publicly for however long he thinks he needs until it dies down, and then he's going to put his foot back in the water and try to come out and do stuff. And I think he's going to pick a new grift. I think he's going to pick a new topic or like, even something outside of, like, religion. I think he's going to come back because this is what grifters do. They cannot stay away. They will do whatever they can to come back around.

[C]

I think you're completely correct, 100%. I think he dips himself back in the water.

[B]

Essential oils, who knows?

[C]

I mean, you think about, you think, look, there's nothing. It's not a far leap to go from this world to, like, the, you know, kind of like new age, you know, you have the power within you kind of vibe. Like, it's an easy, it's not a far jump, in my opinion. And I think you're totally right. Promise. Because we've seen this pattern over and over again, right? Someone gets called out, they don't admit to any wrongdoing. They say that, that, that, hey, I, I, I, Please respect my privacy at this time. They go away, we all forget about them. And then in like a year, we see, oh, this person's speaking again. Oh, their podcast is back. Oh, they're on the podcast circuit talking about how bad their affair was and how much they've learned from it. Carl Lentz. Right. Like at some. Some way they are going to come back in some form.

[A]

Rebrand.

[C]

They always do. They always.

[A]

Can we agree that the three of us will have a reunion? Well, again, in general we should, but like if Sean like decides to come back out again, can we be the first ones to be like hello, 100%. Let's not let it be you again here.

[C]

100%. No. Yeah, this is.

[A]

Remind everybody of what of Sean's background.

[C]

But again, think about the parallels to the people in right wing maga. Right. This happens in those spaces too. I mean look at Matt Gates. Matt Gaetz at one point was gonna be with the attorney general. I mean the guy had like credible. The house. Yeah, the house did a report saying we have credible accusations that this man, you know, r worded a child, an underage person. And that man was on. That man was speaking at Turning Point USA events after those accusations came out to college kids. He did a college kid event. So this is, you know, you have to see the parallels here. There is a logic to all of this and the Venn diagram between this in Church World and this in maga. It's the same circle. It's the same circle.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's the same routine. They all do the same thing. It's the same culture and bounce around and repeat.

[B]

So.

[A]

So we'll, we'll keep being here.

[B]

Thank you, Promise for joining us. Can you tell everybody where they can find you and how they can get your book?

[A]

Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. This was, this was fun. You know, not the subject matter necessarily, but it was a great conversation. Yeah. I am at Evewasframed on YouTube, Facebook, TikTok for now Instagram and my book you can pre order. I don't have like one major link for that yet, but I know it's on Amazon and I think if you just search Gospel of Lies Promise Backland, it'll come up. Especially if you're international. There's other websites that are carrying it already for pre order and that really helps because this book, the Gospel of Lies, I talk a lot about like Christian nationalism and all of a lot of what we've said here. And it will go like April's, it'll go in the religious section. And so people will like when they're going and looking at religious books, they will see that promise background and the pre orders are what kind of communicate to the bookstores that you know, that they should go ahead and have it and put it on the shelves.

[B]

And I highly recommend if you want to learn more about just Christian nationalism in general, like yes, Promise is an atheist, but we agree on like 99.9% of things except for the existence of a God and that's fine. We can disagree on that, but our shared values are super important. And she also grew up in this Christian nationalist world. Like someone in her family has written books on the Seven Mountain Mandate, so she knows what she's talking about and is a great resource for learning more about this too. So highly recommend you follow her.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[C]

Awesome. Thanks for coming on Promise. It was really great friends. Thanks so much for being here. It means the world. Make sure to like this video. Subscribe if you're watching it on YouTube, if you if you're listening on podcast. If you could do April and I a favor, if you can make sure that you're subscribed to the show and give us a rating and a review. It also really helps us out. So thanks so much. I'm sure we'll do this again. Promise. It was really great. That's all I got. April, are we good?

[B]

I think we're good. Until next time. Woo.

[A]

Thanks guys.

[C]

Sam.