86. Christian Nationalists Next Target: Marriage Equality

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Christian Nationalists Next Target: Marriage Equality"

The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals) – Episode 86
Release Date: February 10, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Main Theme:
This episode explores the growing Christian nationalist movement's renewed campaign to overturn marriage equality (Obergefell v. Hodges) and the broader implications for civil rights, family structures, and American democracy. Tim and April dissect a right-wing anti-marriage-equality video, connect its rhetoric to ongoing policy and cultural efforts, and share personal stories illustrating the real-world impact of these ideologies.

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1. Episode Overview

• Purpose: Address the coordinated campaign by Christian nationalists to roll back marriage equality, the use of "protecting children" rhetoric, and warn about the broader erosion of civil liberties.
• Tone: Conversational, impassioned, and evidence-based, rooted in both hosts’ Christian upbringings and commitment to justice and inclusion.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter and Segue (01:22–06:05)

• Weather Anecdotes: Tim and April exchange stories about extreme winter conditions and daily life ( humorous, relatable).
• Transition to Main Theme: Tim jokes, “I had no transition for this. Today on the show, we’re talking about overturning gay marriage. Speaking of cold – let’s talk about cold hearts.” (06:05)

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Breakdown of Anti-Marriage Equality Video (07:24–10:49)

• Hosts review a right-wing propaganda video calling for the reversal of marriage equality (“Obergefell”).
• Video’s Arguments:
  • Marriage as the “most basic institution.”
  • Claims same-sex marriage “harms children” by “redefining parenthood.”
  • Children do best with “a biological mother and father.”
  • Marriage policy should not “bestow public legitimacy” on “idiosyncratic romantic desires.”
• April (sarcastically): “Brought to you by the movement that is doing everything they can to stop trans kids from getting access to the healthcare that they need because they know better than the parents anyway.” (10:18)

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Debunking the “Protecting Children” Argument (11:21–15:56)

• Tim: Points out only ~14-15% of same-sex couples have children (12:40), undermining the narrative that marriage equality predominantly impacts children.
• Data & Studies:
  • Tim cites research: “Children of lesbian and gay parents do as well emotionally as their peers raised by heterosexual parents.” (San Diego State study, 14:10)
• April: Critiques hypocrisy—child welfare concerns ignore larger systemic issues (e.g., the foster care system).

Key Quote:
"If you looked at an emotionally stable, loving marriage between a man and a woman and an emotionally stable loving marriage between a gay couple or a lesbian couple, the data finds that those children are on the same playing field as far as their emotional fulfillment." — Tim (14:41)

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Conservative Hypocrisy & Biblical Contradictions (15:15–19:53)

• Tim: Calls out right-wing pundits for supporting Donald Trump despite his personal history (15:15).
• April: Highlights child abuse in Christian families and churches is ignored.
• Biblical Marriage?
  • Tim: “They’re going to appeal to the Bible…[but] if you just read the dang thing, four chapters in, a guy named Lamech takes two wives…King David has eight wives…” (18:00)
  • Multiple forms of marriage in scripture and history; the “one man, one woman” ideal is a recent construct.

Key Quote:
"This notion that one man, one woman in a committed, monogamous, loving relationship is the bedrock of all civilization is just not true." — Tim (18:46)

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Patriarchy and the Real Agenda (19:53–22:32)

• April: Argues that hostility toward queer people is really about protecting patriarchy and rigid gender roles.
• Tim: Notes the desire to revert to a 1950s-style society—loss of women’s independence, push for no-fault divorce repeal (Project 2025) (21:15–22:32).

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Project 2025, Heritage Foundation, and the “Pro-Family” Rhetoric (22:32–32:25)

• Hosts expose Christian nationalist think tanks’ goals (Project 2025, Heritage Foundation):
  • “Pro-family” is code for white, patriarchal, heterosexual family models.
  • Heritage Foundation’s “Saving America by Saving the Family” report advocates prescribed gender roles, marriage boot camps, financial incentives for “proper” marriages.
  • Tim: “The way you…create a society where families of all kinds can flourish is not by giving people $1,000. The way you do that is by making a society where people can earn a livable wage…” (30:07–32:25)
• April: “When you have gay couples, you automatically buck the patriarchy. Who’s the head of household in a gay relationship?” (20:47)

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Selective Concern for “The Family” and Dehumanization (33:09–35:33)

• Tim: Points out that right-wing “family” advocacy ignores immigrant families, separated by ICE and U.S. policy: “Does that include immigrants and their children?” (33:09)
• April: Emphasizes Christian nationalists do not see immigrants, queer people, or “the other” as truly human or deserving of rights: “They don’t view them as human. They don’t view them as equal…” (34:05)

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Proximity, Personal Stories, and Breaking the Stereotype (35:33–47:23)

• April shares her family’s experience as an LGBTQ family post-spouse coming out as non-binary.
  • Pushback from evangelicals who claim her marriage is “illegitimate.”
  • “Literally nothing changed when Beecher came out, except we got happier…” (38:37)
• Tim: Proximity shatters stereotypes—recounts how knowing real gay people changed his views (38:37–41:00).
  • “The proximity, the embodied proximity is what changed me…” (38:37)
• April recalls her first time interviewing gay dads (2012), her internal struggle between dogma and empathy, and the transformative power of humanizing contact:
  • “It’s really hard to demonize someone when you’re close enough to them to see the divine in them, to see God in them, to see their humanity.” (47:05)

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Empathy, Christian Teaching, and Gaslighting (47:23–49:03)

• April: Challenges the evangelical claim to “love your neighbor,” noting her current posture of radical inclusion causes others to accuse her of being “led astray by Satan” or having “toxic empathy.”
  • “Once I’ve left that dogma behind and now I’m actually loving people and caring about people, they dare tell me I’m being led astray…” (48:56)

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The Political Endgame & Next Steps (49:03–64:00)

• Tim: Draws parallels to civil rights struggles, noting that right-wing Christians used similar logic to fight desegregation.
  • “It’s the same spirit behind the logic…” (49:46)
• Warnings: Today marriage equality is under attack; tomorrow it could be women’s suffrage (the 19th Amendment). “Women’s suffrage is absolutely on the table.” (63:58)
• Action Call: Vote, get civically involved, decode ‘pro-family’ language, attend Pride, and defend the rights of marginalized communities.
• April: “Go to a pride parade this year.” (64:08)

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Affirming Faith & Interpretive Diversity (53:53–61:37)

• April: It’s one thing to believe personally in “one man, one woman”; it crosses into Christian nationalism when you seek to enforce it legally.
• Tim: Reminds listeners the Bible is not as clear as purported; using it as the basis for secular law is dangerous and exclusionary.
• Resources:
  • “Changing Our Minds” by David Gushee
  • “Marriage in the Bible: What do the Texts Say?” by Dr. Jennifer Byrd
  • The New Evangelicals podcast episode: “Why You Don’t Want a Biblical Marriage”

Key Quotes:

• “If the Bible was clear, there wouldn’t be over 45,000 Christian denominations globally…” — April (61:08)
• “Most Americans...should not have to care what the Bible says because they don’t believe that the Bible should be shaping law, period.” — Tim (60:00)

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They want it overturned, and they created a video...why what someone else does in their personal life is so important...so dangerous…it must be barred...” – Tim (07:03)
• “This isn’t about protecting children, it’s about demonizing LGBTQ people and upholding patriarchy…Queerness is a direct threat.” – April (19:53)
• “[Project 2025]... wants no fault divorce eradicated from American society...Because that’s the world they’re trying to go back to in their mind.” – Tim (22:17)
• “Their concern for the family never seems to extend to immigrant children ripped from their parents, or marginalized communities.” – April (34:05)
• “You have to decode all of this language. You can’t assume that ‘family’ for them means family in your mind.” – Tim (35:05)
• “It’s really hard to demonize someone when you’re close enough to them to see the divine in them, to see God in them, to see their humanity.” – April (47:05)

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4. Important Timestamps

• 06:05 – Shift to the main topic: “Today on the show, we’re talking about overturning gay marriage…”
• 07:24–10:49 – Hosts review and analyze the anti-marriage-equality propaganda video
• 12:40 – Citing demographic statistics undermining “gay marriage harms kids” argument
• 18:00–19:53 – Challenging the “biblical marriage” myth with biblical examples
• 22:32–32:25 – Project 2025, “pro-family” rhetoric, Heritage Foundation’s document
• 33:09–35:33 – Exposing selective “pro-family” concern and dehumanization
• 38:37–41:00 – Tim and April share personal/proximity stories reshaping their thinking
• 47:05 – April’s key insight on proximity and empathy
• 49:46–53:53 – Political parallels, danger signals for civil rights
• 53:53–61:37 – Affirming Christianity, interpretive diversity, rejecting biblicist legalism
• 63:58 – Warning that women’s suffrage could be targeted next
• 64:08 – Closing action: “Go to a pride parade this year”

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5. Conclusion

• Call to Action:

  • Stay vigilant for ongoing threats to marriage equality and other civil liberties.
  • Get involved: vote, advocate, and support vulnerable communities.
  • Interpret “pro-family” rhetoric critically—recognize exclusionary goals.
  • Root resistance in love, empathy, and proximity, breaking down barriers of dehumanization.

• Final Thoughts:

  • The episode ends with encouragement to “err on the side of love; it won’t hurt you,” and practical steps to stand in solidarity with marginalized communities.

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This detailed summary offers a comprehensive guide to the episode’s argumentation, evidence, and emotional resonance—essential for those who want to understand the Christian nationalist agenda against marriage equality and how it is embedded in broader cultural, theological, and political battles.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production. My dad taught me a lot, including how easy it is to forget to cancel things. So I downloaded Experian, my bff. Big financial friend Experian could help me cancel my unused subscriptions and lower my bills, saving me hundreds a year. Get started with the Experian app today. Your big financial friends here to help you save smarter. Results will vary. Not all bills or subscriptions eligible. Savings not guaranteed. $631 a year average savings with one plus negotiations and one plus cancell paid membership with connected payment account required. See experian.com for details. Experian.

[B]

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[B]

Hello, friends. Welcome to the show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I am April Ajoy.

[B]

We got another great, fun, enjoyable, joyous show for you because our show is known for those things. Yeah, we're known for bringing the good news.

[A]

And I have to say I might be a wee bit still crazy because I am still crazy.

[B]

I cannot believe it's been almost two weeks and you are still snowed in.

[A]

My children are still no school.

[B]

Look, I am in New Jersey. We have not had a day above freezing in 10 days. My life is back to normal. It's been back to normal since like 13 days ago.

[A]

Would love for someone from New Jersey to come down here and clear out the road in my neighborhood. I mean, we did have to venture out a few days ago because we, we literally ran out of food. Well, we first, we first were like really nervous because we kept getting all these alerts on our neighborhood app. They were like, wreck on this. That, like, wreck on this road. And those are all like really close to us. We're like, we're not going out. So we walked like the mile and a half it took like through some back roads to our local Walgreens to just get like some soup.

[B]

You walked a mile and a half on the ice to get soup.

[A]

We did.

[B]

Is there. Honest question, is there no doordash? No grubhub? No. Honestly, instacart option?

[A]

There is, but they have to. I feel bad making people drive on ice to get to us. But also I. We don't ever use that. I don't think I've ever used doordash or grubhub, which maybe I should get with the times, but.

[B]

Well, no, I don't use it either. I think it's a total rip. I'm just saying. Desperate times, desperate measures.

[A]

I didn't think about it. No, we just, we took a day, we just walked to Walgreens and we brought little backpacks. We could put the groceries in our bag. I was like, we're like the Von Traps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like walking the mountains.

[B]

Little pilgrims, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Different incident.

[B]

But I will say on that note, really quick. So during Black Friday, Walmart had a deal where you got like their Walmart plus service for 50 bucks for the year, which includes free delivery. And now we get our groceries delivered from Walmart and it is wonderful. We just order on the app. It shows up. There's no delivery fee. Plus it's Walmart, so you can order other stuff too. You can order clothes, whatever you want. And I will say, because I'm very pragmatic, I'm not going to pay an upcharge for. For doordash to give me my Taco Bell order, you know, plus, plus the delivery fee, plus a tip. I'm not paying double the price. Right. I will go out and get it. It does, it does. But if, if you're going to give me free delivery for groceries, we will absolutely use that feature. And it's. It is wonderful.

[A]

So anyway, that sound like a nice, A nice little thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I will say today we get up to 34.

[B]

Proud of you.

[A]

So hopefully something will melt.

[B]

Cry with the climb in the ranks. That is T shirt weather.

[A]

Then it'll freeze again overnight, you know? It's so weird though. It was like, like zero degrees for a while. Like it was really cold. And then yesterday we went out and it was 29 and it actually felt warm. And I was like, oh, this actually feels nice. Well, it's warm. It's like in the 20s. I'm like, this is how northerners feel when they would come. Because I used to live in Florida. When they would come and visit Florida and it'd be like 50 and we're all freezing in like winter jackets and they're out in their shorts and a T shirt and thought they were crazy. But now I understand. When you're used to freezing temperature, then just slightly warmer feels like summer.

[B]

Have you seen there's a series on YouTube about living in the coldest place on the earth? Have you seen this video?

[A]

No.

[B]

It gets down to negative 65 degrees. Okay. They have to insulate their cars or else the metal will freeze. They have to. They have. Their outfits cost thousands of dollars. They have to wear reindeer boots. Oh, hold on. Let me look. No, no. Coldest place on earth. Where is it? Wait. Where people live. It's called Oi. Oh, sorry. Oan. That's the best way I can. I can. I can summarize. It's in the district of. Of. It's Russia. It's Russia. It gets down to negative 60. I mean, it's really worth watching on YouTube because they. They live their life like normal, but. Okay. To give you an example, they buy milk frozen. You buy it in a frozen block. You keep your food outside. You bring it in when you want to heat it up by chopping off a piece of milk and putting it in your coffee.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Wild.

[A]

I couldn't do it.

[B]

Wild. So I can't do it. Well, I had no transition for this. Today on the show, we're talking about overturning gay marriage. Speaking of cold. Good one. Let's talk about cold hearts. Yeah, that's great. Today we're talking about the thing that we have been warning people about for a long, long time on this show, because as two former conservative evangelical fundamentalists, we knew. April, it was only a matter of time before the right wing media pundits and, you know, fundies of the world built a coalition in a propaganda campaign to overturn Obergefell, which is the right that LGBTQ plus people have to get married to the partner that they love.

[A]

Marriage equality.

[B]

Yes. Marriage equality. Thank you. That's so much easier. I don't know why I was so wordy.

[A]

Right. Or people not.

[B]

I kind of. I don't know why I do that sometimes. But, yes, marriage equality. They want it overturned, and they created a video to tell you. You, the public, why. Why? What someone else does in their personal life is so important. They must. And so dangerous. It must. They must be barred from doing it. Shall we watch the video?

[A]

Let's watch this video.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Here we go. It's three minutes. We'll just play it in its entirety. Here we go. Marriage is actually the most basic institution of human civilization.

[A]

When Obergefell redefined marriage to include same sex couples. It was billed as a win for adult equality. In reality, it created inequality for children. It made our children less than. When you redefine marriage, you redefine parenthood. When you make mothers and fathers optional in parenthood law, children are harmed. We now have these trite phrases like love makes a family or all you need is just love. As long as your physical needs are met and someone is cheering you on, then apparently you'll grow up fine.

[B]

But the kids aren't fine. The kids haven't been fine for quite some time. You redefine marriage. You have just destroyed the house. You can put together a new house and claim it's the same. Children will know the difference. It harms children in virtually every way imaginable. We are prioritizing the fantasies of adults, no matter how earnestly those fantasies are felt, over the real needs and the.

[A]

Real good of children.

[B]

The data that we have says two things. Number one, children do best when they are raised in a home with married biological mom and dad. The other thing we know from research is that moms don't dad and dads don't mom. It's not enough to say kids just need loving parents because kids need a particular kind of parent. And parenting comes in two forms, moms and dads. When you look at social science, it says beyond a shadow of a doubt that children that grow up in a loving two parent biological home, mom and dad, those children will do best.

[A]

There is something primal about our relationship with the two people who gave us life.

[B]

Every single child, every single human being is the living embodiment of the relationship between exactly one man and one woman. It's a mother and a father that bring forth children into the world. And that's by design, because those children need a mother and a father.

[A]

There's two legitimate ways to unite a child to adults. The first one is biology. If you made the baby, that baby has a claim to you. The second pathway is adoption, where a child has suffered loss and a just society responds by placing them with parents who have undergone screening and vetting and background checks to as much as possible replicate the kind of protectiveness that a biological mother and father would offer the child. That's not what's happening today.

[B]

Marriage policy should be about the children. It's not about bestowing public policy legitimacy and conferring economic benefits when it comes to adults who have their own idiosyncratic romantic desires. That's not the purpose of marriage policy.

[A]

Redefining marriage robs Children of the natural right to their mother and father.

[B]

And it puts adult desires over children's needs. It has to stop. Children.

[A]

Children are greater. Children are greater.

[B]

Children are greater than equal. And it's time we fought for their rights. Brought to you by the movement that is doing everything they can to stop trans kids from getting access to the health care that they need because they know better than the parents anyway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow, that is. That's a doozy.

[A]

I.

[B]

So where do you start?

[A]

They. Albert Moeller. Was it Albert Moeller that shared it? I mean, a bunch of them shared.

[B]

It, but Ali Stuckey's in that. In that one. Lila Rose, for those who listening on podcast, it's a bunch of. Michael Knowles is in this video to who's who of right wing commentators and conservative influencers, essentially making the argument that somehow gay marriage harms children.

[A]

I want to. They also said one of them. Oops. Oh, one of them got taken down. Interesting that. Yeah, they. They were very clear in their post of it too, that their goal is to overturn Obergefell.

[B]

Right. I mean, there are so many layers to unpack here. The first thing I would say is, wait, what does that have to do with having kids? Many gay couples who get married don't have kids at all. So why would that affect, like, why does that need to be overturned to save the children? In theory, if you had this perspective and you were really concerned about the kids, wouldn't your goal to be to overhaul maybe the adoption industry or to overhaul, you know, maybe policies that. That would promote the values that you see for a family to be successful? Why would you overturn Obergefell when the reality is most queer couples don't have kids? Like, it seems like you're after the wrong thing. Unless. Unless, April, this is a Trojan horse to roll back civil rights for a particular people group based on your horrific and fundamentalist interpretation of an ancient collection of documents called the Bible. Unless that was your real goal here, then that makes more sense.

[A]

Yeah. According to a quick Google search, around about 14 to 15% of same sex couples have children in America.

[B]

Yeah. So not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. We also know from data that we pulled that about220,000 kids out of 74 million have, you know, a same sex couple who is raising them, you know, like their parents are two moms or two dads. So pretty rare. And also we have data because. Let me just back up for a second. White right wing evangelical fundamentalism will give you the veneer of data and Facts, but they often play fast and loose with the data. I don't know what studies they're referring to, but I can tell you a quick search on Google came up with several studies that had a similar response or similar conclusion that said children of same sex parents are emotionally healthy. And this study, this is, this is from San Diego State University researcher Gerald Causos. New study finds children of lesbian and gay parents do as well emotionally as their peers raised by heterosexual parents. Also, since they're so concerned about the kids, you could ask the kids of same sex parents, how do you feel? How do you, are you loved or do you feel emotionally healthy and fulfilled? And I, I would bet that a lot of them would say yes. Now obviously parents can be bad out of any kind of people group, right? There are bad Christian parents, there are bad atheist parents, there are bad old parents, bad young parents, there are bad straight parents, and there are bad gay parents. So we all accept that reality that people regardless of, of, of their, of those things can be bad parents. But if you looked at, at an emotionally stable, loving marriage between a man and a woman and an emotionally stable loving marriage between, you know, a gay couple or a lesbian couple, the data finds that those children are on the same playing field as far as their emotional fulfillment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So there's that.

[A]

Correct. Because yeah. And also they're completely ignoring the foster care system that, that is, could be very, very damaging and harmful to children. Like you can get the, the amount of stories of abusive foster moms or foster parents and going just from home to home, like it is much better for those kids to have any sort of parent like stability regardless of whether they're same sex or you know, heterosexual.

[B]

You know what cracks me up though? I love, I love how these, you know, these concerned theologians and pundits like your Ali Stuckeys and Al Mohlers, they're so concerned about, about children being raised by one mom and one dad as they simp for Donald Trump, the man who on his third marriage cheated on his then pregnant wife with an adult film star and then lied about it. Certainly Donald Trump doesn't embody any of the values they insist everyone else live by. But hey, hey, we don't need a pastor in chief, April. We need a commander in chief. And God bless Donald Trump.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

You just can't make this up. You cannot make this up. You just can't. There are plenty of bad parents in evangelicalism. No one critiques the system in those spaces.

[A]

Well, and not even to mention the amount of Child abuse that goes on in Christian families and churches from youth pastors. And pastors. And they're not looking at that and being like, well, they're harmed. So we should get rid of all pastors or take children away from all Christians. Like.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean we covered much higher in the other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's not even talking about religious trauma. And here's the thing. As parents, we're all phoning it in, you know, like we're all, we don't know what we're doing. We're doing the best that we can. We're figuring it out as we go. We're trying to do better than our parents did. We're probably overcompensating some. And I'm sure our kids, my kids are going to be in therapy one day venting about something that I did that even though I was. Do you know what I mean? Like, we're all.

[B]

You were. You're on YouTube too often with this guy named Tim, you know, so.

[A]

Yeah, like there's, there's no perfect parent out there by any means. But, but the idea that, oh well, children have to have a mom and a dad because that's perfect and children will grow up to be perfect, like, it's just, it's so idealistic. Like Michael knows in there was talking about the fantasies of parents. Like what they're talking about isn't one giant fantasy. Like a child grows up with a mom and a dad and suddenly has the parents perfect stability is going to grow up to be the perfect citizen we've ever seen. Like, it's so stupid.

[B]

It's also, when you examine this stuff, it just kind of falls apart. I would argue that especially Al Muller, who's the first person in that video. He is the president of the, of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Big name in that space.

[A]

We've had to bits of trouble.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of abuse. Right, yeah. But what they're gonna do is they're gonna appeal to the Bible. They're gonna say, look, the Bible lays out that marriage is between one man and one woman for life. And like, look, if you just read the dang thing, if you read four chapters into the first book, a guy named Lamech takes two wives. And there's no condemnation for this dude. There's none. And if you believe that Adam and Eve were the first two humans that we all descended from at some point, things are getting real weird and not very, not very one man, one woman for life scenario. Because how else do you repopulate the earth so it just. It falls apart. King David has eight wives, and the Bible says that God gave him those wives, so there's that. And we all know even from. Even from, like, yeah, King Solomon. And we even know throughout, like, the Middle Ages and why people got married to preserve bloodlines and preserve, you know, the royal line. This notion that one man, one woman in a committed, monogamous, loving relationship is the bedrock of all civilization is just not true. It's just not true. Many cultures today, not a lot, but many, as a norm, practice polygamy, and they're fine. They are living, they are existing, they have kids, etc. So this. This. This, like you said, April, it really is a fantasy, and it's a real oversimplification of. Of. Of the nature of what marriage has always been. And the reality is that it's always been done differently for different reasons. Right. I mean, for crying out loud, Jacob in the Bible sleeps with his two cousins who are both sisters, and takes them both as wives. And that's how the nation of Israel is born. Come on. Come on.

[A]

There's so many layers to this. Well, one, it's a hatred of queer people totally. And just wanting to take away their rights, but really, at the end of the day, it is. It's all based in the patriarchy. It's to uphold the patriarchy because men need submissive women to be in the home to serve the men, to raise the children. Like, they need women to fulfill that role so that men can go out and get the jobs and be the providers and do all the big, manly, manly things and protect the family. That. That. That. They. That's their fantasy.

[B]

And start the wars. And start the wars.

[A]

Right. Oh, so many.

[B]

Don't forget that.

[A]

Don't. Yeah.

[B]

Us men have a job to do. Start more wars.

[A]

Yes. So they need. At a basic level, they need women to be willing to fulfill those roles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you have gay couples, you automatically buck the patriarchy. Who's the head of household in a gay relationship?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who's the submissive?

[B]

Right.

[A]

1. It immediately falls on its head. So they have to get rid of that because they got to keep their. Their patriarchal fantasies in line. Like, at the end of the day, it's just because queerness is a very direct threat to the patriarchy.

[B]

Right. In a white Christian nationalist ethos, gender patriarchy hierarchies really matter. And so anything that upsets that hierarchical nature that they believe is God's order is automatically a problem. And being LGBTQ upsets the heteronormative world that they believe God has created. And so anything outside of this mythological belief that if every kid just had two parents, they're all going to turn out just fine. There's no problems. Right. Is therefore a threat to the system that the whole thing is built on. You're totally right, 100%. And by the way, a lot of these people want to go back to the 1950s where women couldn't divorce their partner if he was abusive, but women couldn't get a credit card, they couldn't have a career, they couldn't be financially independent. Right. They, the house, the house mortgage wasn't in their name, so they had no choice but to be part of a system or be in sometimes in marriages that were super abusive because they had nowhere else to go. That is the world. And by the way, Project 2025 actually says clearly they want no fault divorce eradicated from American society. They want it gone. That is the thing. Because that's, that's the world they're trying to go back to in their mind.

[A]

Yes. And I do think you brought up Project 2025, which is a great segue, because I was about to bring up. This is. This should not be a surprise to anybody that read Project 2025. One of their main points throughout the whole document was a focus on family. And of course, in their family, it's one man and one woman. And they even refer to the LGBTQ agenda. This is on page 291. This is on page 291 in Project 2025. It's a 900 plus page document, but they, they call it the Bullying LGBTQ plus agenda.

[B]

Imagine that is crazy.

[A]

Calling a group a very heavily scrutinized and marginalized and oppressed group that's just wanting equal rights, calling them bullying.

[B]

Meanwhile, who's the one introducing legislation all over the nation trying to remove the rights of those people? Who's trying to say that we have to overturn Obergefell? Right. Who's the bully? Who's the actual bully in this scenario? Because I'll tell you right now, there's no civil rights group that is actively introducing legislation to bar Al Mueller from not being able to. There's no legislation forcing Al Mohler to marry a gay couple. Right. That's not happening. There's no legislation forcing churches to close if they're not affirming. Yeah, exactly. It's the opposite.

[A]

Right. And, and, and we can. I could go off on Project 2025 because everyone, a lot of MAGA was like, Donald Trump doesn't know anything about that plan. That's not his plan. He says. Not his plan. That's not going to happen. It's happening.

[B]

Of course. Of course it is.

[A]

And one of. One of the big points in Project 2025 was getting rid of all DEI initiatives. And Donald Trump did that, like month one immediately. My name is Jaja. I'm from Waco, Texas, and I've been a listener of the TNE podcast for about a year now and have really appreciated the nuanced breakdown of current events, theology and politics that Tim and the TNE team provides. I am a donor and supporter of tne, not only because I hope to see Yalls work expanded and the information further shared, but also because I am a listener who is probably, like many of the listeners, a person who has oftentimes become disillusioned by the Christian Church in America and evangelicalism. And I have found a lot of encouragement and empathy from the work that Tandy does, and I'm excited to be able to continue supporting.

[B]

In fact, in Philadelphia, they removed a whole segment on the slaves that George Washington owned. Like, it's actually, they removed the whole. The whole exhibit in the name of, you know, this is woke history. Like, not. Not kidding you. So this is happening in real time, including in cities like mine. Yeah, absolutely right. You're completely spot on.

[A]

Yeah. So. And. And a part of going along with this, earlier in January, the Heritage foundation, which is behind Project 2025.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They released a special report that is 168 pages long called Saving America by Saving the Family, a foundation for the next 250 years. So I want to. I think it's just important to highlight there's this new push that's going to talk about pro family initiatives. And when you hear pro family and wanting to protect the family and support families, like, that sounds great. That, like, there's nothing inherently wrong with being pro family. I'm pro family. I love family. Right, Right.

[B]

I'm very pro family.

[A]

Right. But when these conservatives and Christian nationalists and MAGA people are talking about pro family initiatives, what they really mean is white, heterosexual, patriarchal family designs. Because in this whole document, it is heavily. Women have specific female roles, men have specific male roles. Like gender roles are a huge thing. It's. It's about one man, one woman. It kind of reiterates a lot of what we saw in that family and in this. They're talking about wanting colleges to be. They even mentioned ring by Spring in here, which I think is funny. Do they really went to A Christian college.

[B]

No, but I know that term.

[A]

So here, this is a quote from it. Like, here it is. Yeah, yeah. They talk about. So if you didn't go to Christian colleges, there was this joke that all the women only go there to get married. Like literally, I've been in a chapel service that one of the chapel speakers got up and were like, hello, men and women, ladies, I know you're only here to get your Mrs. Degree, right? Like, that was just a running joke. It always pissed me off because I was actually there to get my degree. But. So this is from this, this new pro family doc that the Heritage foundation put out that's talking about. As long as American colleges and universities have access and influence over students, they should help to foster a campus culture that is more welcoming and conducive to marriage and family. There is already a ring by spring culture at conservative and religious colleges. Students on those campuses show that it is possible to focus on studies and be open to meeting their future spouse at the same time. So ring by spring was just that if you go to a Christian college, you're going to get engaged by spring.

[B]

Yeah. Because even Charlie Kirk referenced the Mrs. Degree when a, a girl, a young girl asked him about, you know, if, if she should go to college. That is. Again, I want to be clear. This isn't even like an ancient ideal. In many different cultures, women are providers for their family. They travel to get the food, they travel to get this idea of a domesticated wife who just stays at home. Cleaning is like a very modern Industrial revolution idea because the Industrial revolution changed how we worked. The idea of anyone going to a factory or going to an office is a brand new concept in human history. So this is not a biblical or even Christian ideal. This is incredibly capitalist. This is incredibly patriarchal. It's a very American ideal. And that's important to know.

[A]

Yes, they also are pitching in this document a marriage boot camp. Yes, they are cohabiting couples with children. Recruitment could be done through local nonprofits that would grant funds for marriage education. Or they're saying they. That a bride and groom or an upcoming bride and groom can go through these camps with a mentor. And they could, and they could provide wedding bonuses up to $5,000 if they get married and then continue to pay them money as long as they stay married. Like, like financial incentives to stay married. Which honestly I would take. I would take, take that. But I didn't need a financial carrot on a stick to stay married because I, I married who I was supposed to marry. You know, I don't know. It's, it's just weird.

[B]

I, I don't want to be a complainer because 5,000 sounds like a lot until you realize the cost of any modern day wedding. I know, like, thank you. So I guess I'll get a 5% discount on my current wedding ideal. And this is, this is the issue with this approach, which again, April, to be clear, right, you and I believe in creating a society where families of all kinds can flourish. The way you do that is not by giving people $1,000. The way you do that is by making a society where people can earn a livable wage, where you don't need two different parents working two or three jobs to cover the mortgage. Right? Where things are so expensive because the corporate billionaire class is squeezing the middle and lower class for every dime that they have. That's how you fix this stuff. You give people affordable health, which this country could do. We just choose. Choose not to. You give people the option to take family paid leave whenever they have a child that is covered by the government. That's what you do. You don't give people $5,000 and think, oh, we've done our job. Especially in a, in, in a society where things are so expensive that five grand just goes back to the billionaire class. Right? This is really a way just to continue to fund the upper class that has taken over America, bottom line. Because where's that 5,000 going to go? Not in your savings account. It's going to go towards food or formula or maybe your wedding or whatever else it might be. It goes back into the economy, back into the companies that are trying to get more money out of you. That's all this is. So it's not even like an effective way of dealing with the actual issues that you and I always say are like pro family issues. I don't know why Ali Sucky isn't, isn't on her bullhorn screaming for affordable healthcare and for top notch ob GYN care for women at no cost to them, especially pregnant ones. Why isn't, why isn't she talking about that? Because it's not about that for her. She doesn't care about that. You know, she cares about this mythological ideal where you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you go to church every Sunday, you sing a few hymns, your kids are perfect and essentially you live in like a Leave it to Beaver fantasy land. That's black and white.

[A]

It's.

[B]

They're not addressing the real issues. That's what bugs me so much. It Just, it just supports the status quo, which were not where no one in the middle or lower class is benefiting from at all by any stretch of the imagination.

[A]

Yeah, no, they just get so annoyed because I, we can see so clearly through what they're actually saying, you know, like, it's not about protecting children because I don't, I don't remember any gay couple in the Epstein files.

[B]

I'm not aware that I've seen in the 3 million.

[A]

You know, you know whose name a lot, though. Donald Trump.

[B]

38,000 times, if you're counting, by the way. And also, April, I'm sorry, if we're trying to keep kids with their moms and dads, does that include immigrants and their children? Does that include little, little Liam who was taken by federal agents away from his mother, who was detained with his dad in Texas, who got super sick? And by the way, the administration said that they're going to appeal the ruling by the judge that returned Liam back to his home. I wonder if, I wonder if. If Ali or Al Muller is concerned about those kids, the ones that are currently in detention centers screaming to be let out, you know, because it matters, right? Because kids are greater than. Kids are greater than. Right. Kids are, are what matters. All kids, Ally, or just some kids.

[A]

They, from the All Lives Matter people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Certainly not immigrant lives. And I do think that is a huge piece of this, is that they don't view immigrant or queer people, or honestly anyone that doesn't have the same beliefs as them. They don't view them as human. They don't view them as equal and deserving of rights, which is how they're able to be so cruel and support such cruel policies while putting out a 200 page document about the importance of the family and the importance of children to have parents while they cheer on ICE ripping families apart.

[B]

Yes. I mean, we have so many videos, even from when this all first started, of ICE going to courthouses, in one case ripping literal children out of their dad's arms. The kids are wailing. Not a peep from Ali Stuckey, not a peep from Al Moore. In fact, only a cheering on. Only a support of the good work that ICE is doing. And the reason why we say this is because it's important to know what they mean. You have to decode all of this language. You can't assume that family for them means family in your mind. No, no. They have a very specific version of the family. It's not, it's not the Muslim family, it's not the Hindu Family. It's not the atheist family because they're destroying the country. And it's definitely not the immigrant family. It is the conservative Christian mom and dad, two kids, white picket fence family that must be preserved at all costs. That's what it comes down to.

[A]

And I just want to point out too, that when my spouse came out, so I'm married to Beecher, when we got married, I'll give you, I'll give you the Cliff Notes version, we got married. We were both still very evangelical conservative, cisgender, heterosexual, identifying individuals. So we get married and gosh, how long has it been? Several. A few years ago now, Beecher came out non binary. I had always known about their gender dysphoria since dating. We didn't know what it was called, but I knew about it. Right? So they come out and this was not like a we are going to wake up one day and decide that we're a queer couple now. This was years in the making. Through tears, through 12 step groups, through fasting, through. I literally laid hands on my spouse to try to cast the demons out of them because that's what we were told that this was. And eventually we're like, maybe you're just born this way and it's okay. And so we prayed about it. We were still going to church, we went to therapy and we read our Bibles and we both felt an immense peace, like a sacred, immense peace from God. I would say that it was just okay, that it was just who Beecher was. And as soon as we accepted that, our marriage got so much better. And we have two kids and our kids are really like, they're the happiest kids.

[B]

Like, they are. I met them. They're, they're just little balls of energy. 20. They're little. They're characters, man. Your kids are characters.

[A]

They are characters. They are, they are so cute.

[B]

And I, they're adorable.

[A]

I think we just got really fortunate to just have really happy kids. Like, I don't, yeah, I don't think it's our parenting. Like, we just, we hit the jackpot when it comes to just really adorable, amazing kids. But regardless, whenever I talk about our story online, I, I've gotten pushback from so many people in this conservative world that say my, I'm not actually married, that like, I can't, that our marriage is illegitimate. Because Beecher identifies non binary now. But in their own, like, like in their mind, they only think about genitals. Right? So even based on their criteria of what a male and a female is, we Think fit that, right? And they're still trying to, like the amount of comments of people being like, those poor children, those poor children being raised, like, in such a terrible home. Like, I get DMS and comments like this often anytime I talk about this happening. And it's just so far removed from the actual reality of what our family is like. We're. We're just a normal family. I don't know what to tell you. And they're trying to demonize us. Us, like we're some kind of predators or. I. I don't like, literally nothing changed when Beecher came out, except we got happier, right?

[B]

This is, this is why one of the things that I've. That was part of my upbringing, right, was that there was no proximity to the people groups that I was taught were the enemy. So when I was taught that gay people were incredibly immoral and they were abominations, right, I never was introduced to an actual gay person. I was just told about them. So in my mind I had this characterization that gay people as a group were predators and terrible and vile and wanted to sleep with me, et cetera. And then when I was 18 and worked at Starbucks and I worked with my first ever gay person, right? That proximity in a very short time completely clashed with the mirage about this person that I was given. And frankly, he was one of the first people that really got me thinking about. I'm not sure if this is like, if this is an honest take about gay people, right? But the proximity, the embodied proximity is what changed me. And that's why Ali and all these other folks are never gonna have a couple like you and Beecher on the show, right? Because you ruin the propaganda that somehow if someone's non binary or gay or not anything but not straight and conservative. Because if you're a liberal, it's also a problem. Your kids are just being abused all day. Meanwhile, in their own circles, in particular, Alvy Stuckey, who I always had a bone to pick with, she promotes a man who protected two different men on his staff who sa their own children. John MacArthur, one of the biggest, most prolific pastors in that world, had two pastors on his staff. And we have evidence that John knew about the abuse on both counts. One of the men is still in prison today, serving his time. John shamed the woman of the man because she left her husband. Sorry, the wife of the man, John Gray, because she left her husband over abuse. At the time, she didn't know that it was sexual abuse of the children. She thought it was just physical. MacArthur went public and shamed her for that. And somehow we're supposed to believe that Ali Stuckey has a moral compass that, that the whole world should follow when it comes to marriage and the safety of children? You gotta be kidding me. Like, it's, it's ridiculous.

[A]

Yeah. And that's, and that just further proves to me, obviously, I, like, I, I feel like I have first hand experience of knowing how they lie about who you are. And they say it with such confidence, you know, and, and so when you're in that world and you don't know any queer people because you are intentionally siloed from them, you are intentionally warned that those people are dangerous and that Satan will use them to try to get you off the right track. So you are taught to have your guard up anytime you come in contact with someone who's gay or trans or, you know, queer in any way. So you have these defense, these defense mechanisms up so that you can never actually just see a happy couple.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're taught like, and, and if you do see a happy couple and your brain registers it as, oh, this is a happy couple, you're taught, well, Satan comes as an angel of light. And you can't trust what you're seeing because we know what the Bible says. And this literally happened to me when in 2012, before I ever met Beecher, before I was married, I was single evangelical. I was interning at the NBC affiliate in Dallas, Fort Worth. And my very first interview that I had as an intern as like a 22 year old was or. No, it was 24. Doesn't matter. Do you remember in 2012 there is a huge scandal because JCPenney featured two gay dads in their Father's Day catalog?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like Ellen had them on. I think it was like, it was a huge scandal because obviously, so 2012, this is before Obergefell was ruled on. So this was three years before marriage equality passed. And it was my first interview to go and interview these two gay dads. And I'm against gay marriage at this point. Right. I am a die hard conservative evangelical who. Yes, those are the two. Yes, yes, I went and interviewed them. Not on camera. I was an intern. So I just, I was off camera and like. But I asked them the questions. And so I had like my official professional questions. Right. But in the back of my head I had like the real questions that I was gonna ask.

[B]

Right, the real questions. The hard hitting questions.

[A]

Yeah. The leftist liberal media likes to portray gay people as normal. But I'm gonna expose the truth. And so I was gonna. Literally, I was planning to ask, like, well, don't you think a child should. Is better to grow up with a male with a mom and a dad?

[B]

Like, I was literally, essentially. You were like. You were like journalist Megan Basham as a. As an intern, you know?

[A]

Yes. Yes. So I. I go in there, like, armed and ready. Like, my heart is pounding because I'm, like, going into the belly of the beast, right? I'm behind enemy lines. I am a Christian, and these are gay people. And I know what I've heard about gay people.

[B]

You've been trained for this moment, April. You've been trained for this moment.

[A]

Yeah, there is. There is a demon somewhere in this room. Like, rather, whether oppressed or possessed, I wasn't sure, but I knew there were demons involved.

[B]

But it's definitely not me. I'm not the demon in this situation.

[A]

Right? So. So I go in there. They had a beautiful home. They had their kids pictures on the walls. And these kids looked happy. Like, they look like they were all smiling. I remember. And I remember clocking it, like, thinking, satan comes as an angel of light. I'm not falling for it. Like, I'm, like, going through my guardrails all the way in. And they start. They start talking to me. And they were so kind. I. Like, they were so. And I'm just an intern. Like, they could have easily just treated me like, ish. Like, they were doing interviews, like, national interviews, right? And here I come, just a little intern with the local news. And they were so nice. And I remember, like, saying little things. Like, I would mention church, and I'd mention God, and. And one of them mentioned, I think that he went to a Christian college or mentioned church. And I remember I was floored. I was like, no, no, you should be foaming at the mouth now, because I mentioned Jesus. And you're just being like, oh, yeah, I went to so and so church, and I was like.

[B]

Like someone on a vampire, right? You're supposed to burn when I say these words. Yeah.

[A]

Like, so. Like, they were just. They were just so normal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember, like, I get through the interview, and my heart's pounding, and I remember just, like, I did not feel good about asking them these gotcha questions because they were just so. Like, their kindness disarmed me, and so I left. And I remember on the drive home, repenting, like, and asking God to forgive me, but that I wasn't bold enough to ask them. But, like, deep down, I also didn't feel right about it, like, it was. It was one of those moments where the. My. The theology in my head was in direct conflict with my instincts, which. Which honestly, what I would say, the Holy Spirit was telling me, like, I do think the sacred was pulling me to be kind to them and to see the. Their humanity. But the theology that I was indoctrinated with was telling me to hate them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they were at odds. And honestly, I'm really glad. I'm proud of myself that in that moment I went with the sacred and I went with my heart over the dogma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that interaction stuck with me for a really long time. And when I was driving away, I just convinced myself that I had just been deceived by Satan, even though deep down I knew that probably wasn't true. But I didn't know how to reconcile those two things. And I do think that happens so often, which I. Which is when you get close enough. I wrote this in my book. It's one of my favorite lines. But it's really hard to demonize someone when you're close enough to them to see the divine in them, to see God in them, to see their humanity. And that is why so many churches and evangelicals demonize queer people and demonize the other and demonize immigrants. They don't want you to get close enough to them to see that they are image bearers, too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because when you see that there are image bearers too, you can't hate them. Sorry. It's just. It just really, it's upsetting because I don't. These are the same people that my entire life taught me to love my neighbor and to love my enemy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Period. And the moment that I decide to actually do that, because I was not loving all my neighbors when I was evangelical, I thought I was. I had convinced myself that I was, but I had wrapped my hatred in this faux love and this tough love rapper. And once I've left that dogma behind and now I'm actually loving people and caring about people, they dare tell me that I'm being led astray of Satan, that I have toxic empathy. Like, I don't. I don't know how to convince people to care about others. And it's. It's increasingly disheartening to just realize how little these people that claim the love of Christ actually love, because they don't. They love their people. They don't love anybody else, but they try to gaslight us all, that somehow they're the ones with true love, because true love.

[B]

Will hold you accountable Unless you're Trump.

[A]

Unless you're Trump.

[B]

Unless you're John McCarthy.

[A]

They literally voted for, like, a judge, found him liable for rape. He has 34. Honest. Oh, and can we just say, too.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

These people, these same people, talk about what's legal and illegal. Illegal aliens, illegal people, illegal immigration when they voted for a felon. You can't talk about what is illegal when you voted for a man who repeatedly broke the law. And that's just the ones that he got convicted on. Like, who knows how many laws is he breaking right now as president?

[B]

Yeah, I'm convinced. This is why we need a movement in American politics. Not the Democrats, they are absolutely useless right now, but we need a movement in politics that is willing to be very careful and wise, but also willing to put some really effective laws in place that just say, look, you can whine and scream and complain all you want, but this is how it's going to be. It doesn't affect you at all. If you don't want to see gay people, don't turn your TV on and live in the hole. You know, but these people have a right to exist, period. Because it's the same thing. It's the same spirit behind the civil rights movement. Right. The segregationists use the same line of thinking to make sure that, that black people do not have the same rights as white people. If you read any book on this, one really good book is called the Bible Told Them so by J. Russell Hawkins. It's the same spirit. Now, obviously it's different, different ideals, and it's a different category of people, but the, the spirit behind the logic behind it is, is exactly the same. And I just don't think there's anything that you could say or do that is going to convince the leaders of this stuff, your Ali Stuckeys, your Al Mohlers, your Lila Roses, to change their mind, because, frankly, the money is too good, the power is too good, the influence is too good. Right. But you're absolutely correct, April. I mean, look, the other night, last night actually, from this recording, I went to a local meeting in a church. 500 people showed up to learn about how to resist ice in their neighborhoods. It was really powerful. And they had several different immigrants who were business owners speak. And even for me, as someone who covers this work in my studio alone with a camera separating me from a lot of those kinds of people, it was like, really powerful and really hit me in a different way, listening to someone who is right in front of me share their story about how, quote, this is her words. They're being hunted worse than rats. That's what she said. And I'm listening to this and I'm like, Like, wow. Like, here I. You're right. I'm looking at a fellow image bearer who is just trying to survive, who is literally crying every night, worried that at one point ICE is going to invade her business, arrest her, and take her away from her kids for the crime of just existing here. Another person who's a teacher shared journal entries from her students who are terrified that, you know, if they're at school, they're gonna. They're gonna. They're gonna come home to an empty house. And when you hear those stories in person, it. There's something. I don't know what it is. It just hits you differently than even doing this work and seeing it on Instagram. Right? And so that's why you're never gonna see that world ever highlight the people that. That they're condemning. Because once you do that, it's borderline impossible, unless you're really a narcissist or a sociopath, to deny the humanity of the person in front of you. That. That one more thing about this, I think that is what was so weird about how I grew up, in a way. My dad, God bless him, we're listening to talk radio all the time about the problem of the illegal criminal or illegal alien. But then at the same time, we'd be learning Spanish on the job site to talk to the cleaners on the job site. Right. Like, even his own embodiment with those people was different than the thoughts he had about what Sean Hannity was saying on the radio. Because embodiment changes, proximity changes how you view this stuff, and, you know, to kind of bring a full circle. That's why, you know, we're so adamant about fighting against this stuff, because it's dehumanization. It puts people into a vacuum. It makes you think that they're demonic or that. That they're just ghouls and that they're just evil people. And the reality is that that's just not the case. That's just not the case at all.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's not the case. And I think I want to make a distinction here in case. I do think we still have some people that maybe still be evangelical that might even still hold to a one man, one woman idea of marriage. And I just want to say there's nothing inherently wrong with having that belief. Like, I am. I'm of the mind that you can't really help what you believe. You believe what you believe based on a lot of different things. And it's one thing to be like, I will not personally be in a gay marriage because I don't believe it's right and that you have every right to believe that we have a freedom of religion. You can believe what you want to believe. It. It becomes Christian nationalism. When you make videos like we watched earlier, when you are then saying, like, well, that goes against my belief. So nobody can have a gay marriage because you can't do that, because I don't believe it's right. That is when it becomes nationalism. That is when it is taking over to. To a harmful level. I also just want to say the Bible is not clear on this issue. Like, there are clobber verses. If we want to get in theology, I don't want to get into it a lot, but there. There are a lot of books that you can read. I would. I remember being shocked that there was actually a biblical interpretation for being lgbtq affirming that they, like, they have scripture to back up their position. And I. I was never taught it. And I kind of came to the point where there are verses to support an unaffirming position too. I'm not gonna deny that. But there's no one consensus if you read the Bible objectively. And I just want to say I would encourage you to just do some research, read an affirming position. Because I ended up. So my brother came out to me as gay in 2015, shortly after Obergefell was ruled on. And I went down this journey because I was like, okay, well, I obviously know that what I believed about gayness. Queer was wrong. Like, I believed you could not be born gay, that you chose to be gay because of demons or Satan or whatever. I knew that was wrong because my brother knew since middle school. He grew up in the same homophobic world as I did. And there's no way someone's gonna choose that and. And everything that goes along with that demonization. So I just woke up one day and realized there are verses to support this side, and there are verses to support this side, and I just chose to err on the side of love, on the side of compassion, because I do feel like that's kind of what Christ embodied at the end of the day. He regularly chose love and people over the law, which is why the religious leaders of his day hated him, because he wouldn't. He didn't follow the law, and because of people, you know, he broke the Sabbath to heal someone. Like, so. So I Just decided to err on the side of love and become affirming without the full theological confidence at the time. And ever since then, I just. I feel so much peace being on this side of it. I don't know why I'm blurry, but. Oh, there we go. My glasses were making me not blurry.

[B]

But I thought it was my contacts. It's like, oh, no, no, these are.

[A]

Just blue light glasses. Because I look at screens all day.

[B]

No, I'm sorry. I thought it was my contacts that are making you blurry.

[A]

Well, I personally thought my glasses were fogging up and I'm like, anyway, anyway, it doesn't matter. Just err on the side of love. It won't hurt you. And I would be shocked. I just kind of decided to. If I get to heaven one day and God's like, sorry, you just loved too much, I will just. I will take that. I will own that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, a good book on this would be Changing Our Minds by David Gushey. And also the book Marriage in the Bible. What do the texts say by Dr. Jennifer Byrd. That's a more scholarly approach, academic, this topic. You can also check out the new Evangelicals podcast. I interviewed Dr. Jennifer Bird about this. It's called why youy Don't Want a Biblical Marriage. It's a really good interview. I also think, for. Maybe one thing that we don't say often enough is that it's okay to not give the Bible the same authoritative weight that you were told to give it. The Bible is a complicated collection of ancient documents. We have none of the original autographs or, or, or the, you know, the firsthand writings. There's a lot of editing that's gone on throughout the ages. That doesn't mean that there isn't truth or wisdom or goodness or beauty in the book or in the collection of books, or that the four gospel accounts aren't our best source for what Jesus taught. Okay, all that is there. But also, men wrote these passages, and then other men ascribed authority to these passages as being God inspired. And then other people agree with that and then tell you that the Bible is therefore God inspired. But that's a choice. You can choose to believe that or not even when. Because I know. I know what someone's thinking. Well, the Bible says all scriptures. God breathed well when the Apostle Paul wrote that, which he probably didn't even write it. But whoever wrote that wasn't talking about the New Testament. It wasn't completed yet. Right. So even that argument falls apart. So what I'm saying is that if you are someone, if you're an individual and you're like, look, the Bible means a lot to me, that's great, believe whatever you want about the Bible, but we should not be basing our laws in a secular society with 300 million other people, many of which do not hold your views. We should not base laws on your interpretation of an ancient collection of documents that has been debated since the beginning of its formation. For crying out loud. The Christian tradition can't even agree on what books go in the Bible. The Catholic Bible has the Apocrypha, the Eastern Orthodox Bible changes depending on what church you're going to, then you have Protestant Bible. So I just think that we should keep that in mind for most Americans. They don't care and they shouldn't have to care about what the Bible says because they don't believe that the Bible should be shaping law, period. So whatever Al Mohler and Ali Seki thinks that the Bible says, fine, but keep it out of the discourse where most of us say, actually we reject your interpretation. And the data shows that same sex relationships and children raised in those relationships can be just as healthy as heterosexual counterparts. And there is no good reason why those people should not be given the same access to legal benefits that heterosexuals get access to. Bottom line, if you don't like that, don't get married to a person of the same sex. Just move about with your life. Turn off Disney, I don't care. But it's still not your place to make those laws.

[A]

Agreed. And also Tim and I are Christians.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we don't interpret the Bible the same way that these people interpret it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the idea that like, oh, the Bible's. The Bible is not clear. If the Bible was clear, there wouldn't be over 45000 Christian denominations globally currently.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it's, it's, it's, I think, a fool's errand to try and make it seem like you have the right interpretation of, of the Bible and no one else does. It. It's just, it's, it's honestly, it's, it's stupidity. You're just not taking the tradition seriously, in my opinion.

[A]

Anyway, if there's a silver lining, I do think they're gonna, they're going to try to overturn Obergefell, but I don't see how they logistically do that.

[B]

That really with our, with the Supreme Court and the fact that they control, I think, Congress. You don't think it's possible there are.

[A]

So many people already married with children. What are they going to do? Take all the children away from them and, and make them all divorce? Like I'm saying, like, it's a logistical nightmare.

[B]

Your question is valid. I put nothing past these people.

[A]

I know I'm saying they're definitely going to try, but I just don't think they've thought it through. It's so. It's just, just stupid. Also, like, they should just learn too. Like they overturned Roe to, to get rid of abortion or to lower the abortion rate. The national average has gone up in the years since Roe has been overturned. They don't like these people's policies, don't do the thing that they want to happen.

[B]

Yeah. Except for give them more power and control. Right. That's what it comes down to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Last thing I think we should mention, and you know, I think we're kind of at time here, is that April and I and many others have been warning people for a while that a burger fell's on the table and a lot of, a lot of people out there pooh poohed us. Oh, you're being ridiculous. That's never gonna happen. So now that you've seen this, please believe April and I when we tell you what's next on the docket is the 19th amendment. They want women's suffrage revoked. And I know what you're saying. Oh, Tim, that's in the Constitution. They couldn't do that. Are you kidding me? Do you think these people give a damn about the Constitution, what it says? Trump, on his first day in office, signed an executive order overriding the Constitution's birthright citizenship clause. They do not care about the Constitution. They will do whatever they can to either amend it or to ignore it or to eradicate parts that they don't like. So make no mistake now, audience, women's suffrage is absolutely on the table. All the more reason to vote in the midterms. All the more reason to work with your, with your states and your, you know, your senators and congressmen to make sure that the 19th Amendment is protected at all costs because it is a target for the Christian nationalist right. Not even a question.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, I agree. We gotta, we gotta stand up, go to. Go to a pride parade this year.

[B]

Yeah, do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, on that happy note, thanks for being here, friends. Make sure to give this video a like, I guess. Subscribe to the channel if you're listening on podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please make sure to give this episode a rating and a review. It really helps us. And as we always say, we go live every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern, covering what happened in the news that week, both on YouTube and on Substack. So, yeah, thanks for being here. It means the world.

[A]

Yes, thank you.

[B]

Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

Still, let me go in and be stuck in my house more.

[B]

All right, well, I'll try this again. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I'm April. Enjoy.

[B]

See you later.