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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production,
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B
The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [00:22]
C
April is not here. My bad. That was the wrong button.
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B
How rude.
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C
Hello, friends. Welcome into the Tim and April show. I am Tim Whitaker.
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B
I am April Lajoy.
- [00:39]
C
Good to be with all of you. Hey, quick heads up just so people know. I'm not sure what happened, April, but substack did not happen on this live. I have an error that they cannot connect. So it's just YouTube today, so. Oh, it's the OG Crew.
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B
OG Crew.
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C
Maybe it's kind of fitting because it is our one year anniversary of starting this channel today. So happy one year.
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B
That was a really good segue.
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C
Thank you.
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B
That you just made.
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C
I'm trying to pick up, you know, your techniques. Anyway, it is. It's our one year old birthday.
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B
We're one happy one year to the Tim and April Show.
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C
We're walking kind of. We're still pooping in our pants, still barking sometimes. Hey, we're getting there. It's the life of a one year old. Okay. You have children, I have children. You know how this goes.
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B
Mm. Well, you know what, speaking of birthdays, Saturday is my birthday.
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C
Congratulations. Happy birthday to you.
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B
Thank you. Made it to another. I don't think you're supposed to ask a woman how old she is.
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C
Okay, okay.
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B
Just kidding. I will be 38, if you must know.
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C
Ooh, the big four O's are coming.
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B
I know it's just around the corner. But hey, for my birthday, if anyone wants to, you could buy my book. Where is it? Star spangled Jesus. As a happy birthday present to me.
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C
I love that. Do you want to tell people really quick a little caveat about today's show?
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B
Yes, go ahead. Yeah, actually, someone in the chat said, april, are you sick? You sound a little stuffy. Yes, I am. I am absolutely sick. Tim and I were supposed to pre record a show yesterday that I had to cancel because I was really rocking a fever hardcore and I am still sick. And to Tim's credit, Tim said, april, do you want to just take the day off? I will run the show for you. And I said, no, no, no, I can push through. I have done shows with COVID and I think this might be the flu, but I don't know because I did get my flu shot, but apparently the flu shot this year didn't cover like this other.
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C
Don't tell Maga that. Don't tell him that.
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B
I don't know. Okay, So I am a little more brain Foggy. So I'm going to be low energy, so I'll be channeling my inner Jeb Bush. So, you know, please clap every once in a while for me.
- [03:13]
C
Yes, absolutely. And I will be probably yapping a little bit more than usual to, you know, just make sure that it's not on April's shoulders, this show. So anyway, friends. Absolutely. Just carrying my heavy cross the bear, you know, as a white man in America. Oh, gosh. Anyway, friends, welcome into the show. Like I said, I am Tim Whitaker, That's April Ajoy. We have a pretty full show for you today. For some reason. Sorry to all of our substack audience that can't even hear what I'm saying, cannot connect to them. But for all of you on YouTube, welcome, please make sure to give this video a. Like, subscribe to the channel. Especially now that we're one year old. We can use all the subscriptions that we can get and all super chats get read live on the show. It's our way of saying thank you to all of our supporters because without your support, we cannot do this work. And also, I wanna say briefly that the New Evangelicals, the organization that produces this show, run by Melinda Hale, is doing these T shirts. Salt Melts ICE T shirts. And they're doing a charity where any of these shirts that are sold is going to an organization working in Minneapolis, Minnesota, directly with immigrant families affected by ice. I cannot give the name of that organization publicly because they face a lot of hate and backlash. So they asked us to keep their name private. But all the money, all the proceeds from this T shirt or hoodie, if you get it in that format, go right to ICE families, so. Or families who are being, sorry, immigrants who are being targeted by ice.
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B
Please clap.
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C
Ta da. Well, I think the first, the first thing we should mention that is just, I think for the show is that Prince Andrew has been arrested.
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B
Yeah. Please clap. That's actually great. No, I know. I woke up and I saw that. I was like, wow, what a. How does it feel to live in a country that actually holds their leaders accountable?
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C
It is, Yeah. I mean, yeah, let's be nice. Yeah. Meanwhile in America, Pam Bondi. Nuff said. It's crazy. Crazy as ever here.
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B
But the dow is over 50,000.
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C
Not anymore. It went back down. Did you see that?
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B
I did see that, actually.
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C
Also, I do want to point out. So I, I. One more thing, because I don't think as Americans, we realize, like, maybe how little we actually hold any politician, but in particular, in this case, Trump Accountable for his litany of various accusations or potential crimes. But I'm not sure if you saw this story. This is from Midas Touch. Former South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol has been sentenced to life in prison after a court found him guilty of leading an insurrection tied to his 2024 martial law declaration that triggered a constitutional crisis. A military raid on the National Assembly.
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B
Wow.
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C
That's what happens if you incite insurrection in other countries. It must be nice. Like, I really do think that one of America's biggest mistakes in its recent history was not prosecuting Trump and the people behind the stolen election narrative that led to a legitimate attempt to overthrow our democratic process. The fact that he was allowed back on the ballot, the fact that he was allowed to get reelected. Like, I don't understand. I don't understand. But here we are and we're reaping the effects. We're reaping the fruit of these actions.
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B
So, no, I know. I'm right there with you. The January 6th should have been the end. The end should have been the end. Done.
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C
People forget that that was the first time in our nation's history where the peaceful transfer of power did not happen. Think about that for a second. I mean, we had people breaking windows, blowing shofars, carrying Bibles, carrying Christian flags, smearing poop on the walls, hunting down Nancy Pelosi. They brought a noose to hang the vice President with. And we have an entire media apparatus that will tell you every January 6th. It was a mostly peaceful protest. It was greatly exaggerated and maybe Antifa was behind it and somehow that's all tolerated as well. Both sides. Well, you know, different perspective.
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B
Maybe we should go to D.C. and organize our own march and bring our own shofar and just name and claim the arrest of Donald Trump. I mean, you can play this game, you know.
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C
Yeah, absolutely. It's wild. So, anyway, speaking of, I have, I have no segue to this. I think we should get to our. One of our main stories today, which is about.
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B
The story just pisses me off and infuriates me.
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C
It should, it should. It should do all those things. It should do all those things. So I'll put up the. We'll get to that in a second. Where's the. This one? A baby, a two month old baby that was detained by ICE with his mother, contracted bronchitis while in ICE detention, was rushed to the hospital for not being able to breathe, was discharged and then promptly deported to Mexico with his family, including a 16 month old sister and his mom and dad. And that's the America we're living in currently, friends, this is where we are in America.
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B
Even beyond, like, just the inhumane acts that ICE is doing in who they're detaining. Something that isn't talked about a lot because it's. Anyway, it doesn't matter, but like, the inhumane conditions in a lot of these detention centers should, like, needs to be talked about more 100%. Like, beyond the no due process and the kidnapping of people and the terrorizing of children, like, once they're actually detained, they're, they're experiencing absolute terrible conditions.
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C
Yes, we have reports of worms in food. We have reports of mothers not being able to use the water to mix it with formula for their children. I mean, here, this is. We're living in a time where again, people are gonna look back and go, can you believe they allowed this? Can you believe this was accepted? Can you believe that we actually did this to people? I mean, we look back now, right April at Japanese internment camps, and we think, wow, what were we thinking back then? We look back at some of the horrors of this, of this empire and think to ourselves, what were they thinking? Friends, we are living through that right now. There are about 3,000 plus children detained by ICE, mostly in a facility in Dilley, Texas, and it is known for being a horrific facility. And by the way, this baby here, according to Representative Jacqueline Castro, he said that the child was so sick, he had been unresponsive in the last several hours, but was still discharged from the hospital anyway, and then the family was deported to Mexico with $190 to their name. Just dropped off.
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B
They were just left at the Mexican border. Yeah, yeah, this baby is sick and they just dropped him off with $190. That's it.
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C
That's right. That's right. And maybe to put this in perspective so folks can kind of grasp what that means, imagine you live in Texas and a government drops you off in New Jersey with $190 to your name, and your child's sick and says, okay, you're on your own. Good luck getting to Texas. You have no connections, you have no money, no way to pay for certain things. And you just have to figure it out. I mean, I just want to know, like, where's the pro life crowd? Where's Ali Stuckey? I mean, where is the crowd that will tell you the Democrats want to kill infants after they're born? Where, where's that crowd at the outrage of taking this two month old who was sick, contracted bronchitis while being detained and then was deported with his, with his family while still being sick. I just want to know where are they? Where's the outrage? You're not going to see it. You're not going to see it.
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B
I don't see how you can actually look at a baby, a sick baby and decide, yeah, they just need to be dropped off at the Mexican border. Like, I don't know the, I don't know what choices you have to make in life to get to the point where you don't care about that.
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C
I think this exposes what you and I talk about a lot, April, that it's not about a pro life ethic for all, right? It's not about family values for all. It's not about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all. It's always limited in the world of Christian nationalism and in a right wing conservatism. And it's always limited to their tribe, right? That two month old is not part of their tribe. That two month old is not like them. That two month old is born somewhere else. So that two month old isn't afforded the same dignity, right, that other babies are afforded who are born into the tribe. And I, I don't mean to make it over simplistic, but ultimately that's what's happening here because the right wing apparatus is built on tribalism, right? The, the trans people are ruining America, the immigrant is ruining America. The liberal is. It's always someone else, it's always someone on the outside. And I think what we're seeing is the fruit of that, where even now we can see. And this is not the first sign, right? Five year old Liam was, was taken with his father. Children are going to be targeted, of course, because they're not really seen as fully human. And again, is this not part of our history, right? When we said that Black people were 3/5 of a man, 3/5 of a human. This is, this is, there's a pattern here that we've been looking at, you know, for hundreds of years that's kind of in our DNA as a country. And I don't say that flippantly or, or joyfully. It's tragic. And here's the fruit of that, where that little image bearer, that little human being is sick and has dropped off with his family in Mexico somewhere with no money and said, good luck, good luck. All because we don't like you. They weren't criminals, they weren't breaking any laws, they weren't violent. They were a family of four with a 16 month and a two month old. And our government elected by white evangelicals says, you're no good, get the heck out of here.
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B
Right. And, but they, they claim, if you see in comment sections, they're saying, oh, no, it's just the worst of the worst. We're just deporting violent criminals.
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C
Yep, yep.
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B
And yet that's not by far, not even close to the majority of who this regime is deporting and detaining.
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C
Well, right. I mean, we have this headline too. This really goes along with it. Right. We just read today that the Trump administration, this is from the New York Times, gives ICE broader powers to detain legal refugees, citing security concerns. I, I don't know how you feel, April, but I feel like we keep shouting this stuff from the rooftops to folks, especially the moderates, where we keep on saying, it's not about illegal immigrants, it's not about undocumented immigrants, it's about brown skinned people in general. It doesn't matter if they're here legally or not. And we hear, no, no, no, they're just targeting, you know, the drug cartels. And now we have even more proof that the administration is intentionally giving federal agents the power to go after legal refugees. Meaning they're not here illegally, they're not undocumented. They're trying to go through the process legally. And now ICE has permission to detain them, citing the broad phrase security concerns. That can mean anything. This is where we are. This is where we are. That's why we're selling this shirt as evangelicals. Right. Like we need to do what we can. But it is. It's not about undocumented immigration. Right. It's about keeping a certain type of people out. That's why Trump allocated most of the refugee slots for the US Government to white Africaners, citing that there's a white genocide happening in Africa or South Africa, which is not true. It's about who they let in and who they want here and who they don't.
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B
I wanted to point out, too, a lot of these conditions are so bad that they had record numbers of people who died in ICE custody last year.
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C
Yes.
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B
32 people died in the agent's custody in 2025. And that's almost three times the number of deaths from the previous year. And that's according to the Guardian.
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C
Yes. Not to mention, of course, we saw the very public fatal shootings of Renee Nicole Goode, Alex Peretti and several others. In fact, another woman was killed, Dr. Linda Davis, I believe her name is. I'll look it up really quick. Yeah. She was a teacher in Savannah, Georgia, and she was killed when a man who was fleeing ICE ran into her car and killed her. Look, that's still ice. ICE is terrorizing people. Of course they're gonna run. And now we have a woman who was killed because of that. For no reason. No reason whatsoever. It is. It is. I don't know. It's. It's Antichrist, I think is the best way I can put it politely.
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B
Yeah, I know. I know.
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C
This is where we are. And you're right. I think the number is. I think it's something like 93% have no violent criminal history, people who are being arrested, and, like, 65% have no criminal history at all who are being either detained or targeted by ice. Plus, we've all seen friends who are watching. We've all seen the videos. Right? We've all seen the videos of agents saying, well, you have an accent. We saw the video of the target employees being arrested. They're all US Citizens. We just. We can't tolerate the lies. We can't give in to the propaganda that this is about security or about protecting the border. It's not. It's not. That's just the ruse. That's the Trojan horse to maintain a culture that is dominated by white supremacy. Frankly, that's what it comes down to.
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B
Yeah. According to CBS news, less than 14% of those arrested by ICE have violent criminal records.
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C
There you go. There you go. And by the way, if you have a violent criminal. Criminal record, of course, like, I'm not. I think, April, what happens to you and me, right, is that we get pigeonholed into this. Well, you want open borders.
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D
You want.
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C
You want anyone to come here? Like, no one is saying that. I am all for secure borders and also a legitimate process for people to come here. Right. I'm all for that. I'm all for the government, you know, looking out for people who are going to do bad things. Of course. Of course we want that, but that's just not what this is. That's not what this is. It's something else entirely.
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B
Yeah. It's xenophobia. It's racism. It's a power trip.
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C
Ugh. Yeah, Absolutely. I'm so sorry that you're sick. I feel so bad that you're on this live with me. I'm sorry.
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B
I'm doing great. Please clap. Right.
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C
Oh, where's my folder? Oh, my goodness. Where'd it go? I pulled a folder for this video for our live about our next guest or our next topic. But it's okay. I can still do it.
- [18:53]
E
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- [19:25]
A
this episode is brought to you by Nespresso Introducing Vertuo up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense and taste in every single cup. With a 3 second start easy open lever and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo up exclusively@nespresso.com
- [19:52]
F
hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, Executive Director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus in real tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.
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C
So friends, another big story that dropped. There's a couple. There are three. The second one that we want to cover today is is this is this screenshot. Let's talk about Doug Wilson and Pete Hegseth for a minute now. We are on YouTube right now only, so I'm guessing most of the audience watching knows exactly who Pete Hegseth is and who Doug Wilson is. But just to give people the quick connection briefly, then I'll kind of go into what's going on here. Doug Wilson and I'll get into him in a minute is a pastor who co founded what's called the CREC Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. I believe something like that, and he's essentially a Christian supremacist. He wants the government to reflect his version of Christianity in law and in the Constitution. And one of his disciples is a guy you might have heard of named Pete Hegseth. And Pete Hegseth invited Doug Wilson to the Pentagon to preach at a church service that was held in the Pentagon for the military. That's the TLDR it was, right? Because I, I, I, I'm, I, I'm going to be blunt here. Doug is a racist, he's misogynist, he's homophobic, and he's a. He's honestly, he's a white nationalist. That's exactly what Doug is. And it is another example, April, that you and I and many others, by the way, there's the Sons of Patriarchy podcast. There's a account called Deconstruction Doulas that'll actually be featured on a CNN special finally featuring survivors of Doug Wilson and of Doug Wilson's tribe. But a lot of us have been yelling from the rooftops about people like Doug Wilson and people that are discipling folks like Pete Hegseth. And so I am really happy to see Doug Wilson get brought again to the public light. But also, I don't think people know how bad it is. And I want to play this clip that no one probably has heard before, but I have it. Here it is. I'm a little. I'm a little behind. I'm frazzled. I'm frazzled today.
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B
I know. I think there's just. It's been a day.
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C
It's been a day. It's okay. It's all right, friends.
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B
It's been a year, really.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. So I have been following. First off, I grew up evangelical and conservative and reformed, so I've known Doug Wilson for a long, long. That picture is real. That's Doug Wilson with the flamethrower. This dude likes fire. And I've known about Doug Wilson for a while. I've actually interviewed him before. Well, our podcast did. We'll get into that. But I want to play this clip. This is a small audio excerpt from Doug Wilson talking or preaching several days after 911 happened. And I want you to hear how he frames this, how he frames his statement. This is real. This is unedited audio. Just listen to this.
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D
If we do not see that God is in this because God is in everything. God dispensed this because God dispenses everything. If we don't see this, then everything we say downstream from that will blur into humanistic nonsense. And if you doubt what I say, I want you to consider what the true horror of this last week was. What was the worst event of this last week? It was not the collapse of the World Trade Towers. It was not the bombing of the Pentagon. The worst event of this last week happened in Washington, D.C. when a polytheistic worship service was organized in the National Cathedral and it was presided over by a lady bishop. It was this polytheistic worship service invoked the God of the Muslims and the Hindus and the Buddhists and who knows what else. And the leading evangelical spokesman was there and lent his approval, gave his approval to this. That.
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C
There you go. That is Doug Wilson in 2001 talking about the biggest issue in 911 or the most damaging part. It wasn't. It wasn't that the towers collapsing. It was the fact that a ecumenical prayer service happened in Congress and the fact that other religious groups were invited to participate. That was the biggest travesty during the week of 9 11. I. I just.
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B
I want.
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C
I want. I want you all to let that sink in. That's how Doug views the world. It wasn't the deaths of thousands of people. It wasn't the people who jumped out of buildings, right, trying to. Because their option was to burn alive or just to, you know, unalive themselves. No, no, that was not the. That was not the big travesty. The big travesty was that there was a Buddhist and there was maybe a Muslim and there was a Christian, and they all came together and prayed. This is. Who is discipling the Secretary of Defense. I'm not calling him the Secretary of War. I refuse. This is the man we're talking about here. This is the man we're talking about. That's his own words. You gotta be kidding me. You gotta be kidding me.
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B
They really do just tell on themselves big time. It makes so clear the way that they're able to be okay with violence done in the name of their side and ideology as long as people committing that violence are praying to the God they want them to pray to.
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C
100%. I also want to point out that in. So Doug's denomination of churches, they abide by what's called the Westminster Confession. It's written in like 1614. It is essentially a confession that is very Calvinistic. I want to break that down really quick so folks understand this because it actually matters in. In Doug's worldview, God. And he even says this in his speech here, dispenses or ordains everything that comes to pass. So for Doug, 9 11. Was God ordained. Every action is God ordained. Okay? And it's predestined. And we have no. We have no ability to get outside of God's ordained path. Some people are saved by God to go to heaven. The others are left to their own devices and will burn in hell forever. That's how Doug sees the world. Well, this matters for injustice. Because if you think that injustice is God ordained and God's will, then it's not really injustice. Right? It's not really injustice. Now of course this stops for Doug once it affects him. The second Doug or Doug's tribe and has any gets any whiff of people pushing back or laws maybe keeping him in check, then it's persecution. Then we have to fight the government. But this is the excuse they're gonna use to keep things as the status quo. And I wanna tie this into one of Doug's most infamous quotes about slavery. I'm gonna read this whole quote word for word. This is from a book that he wrote with a known white supremacist at the time. It was called Slavery as it was. It was written in. What's the guy's name? It was written. He was the founder of the League of the South. Founder the league. Sorry, I'm just going to stuff real quick. What was his name? His name was. I don't have it here. Looks like. I will tell you though, that the League of the south was a. Was an organization that envisioned a godly nation run by angle celtics or white elite people that would establish a Christian theocratic state and politically dominate black people and other minorities. That's. That's who Doug co wrote this book with. Okay. And here's what he says on slavery. And again, I want you all to understand this is why I get so passionate about this and so does April, because this stuff matters. This is who's in our government. This is just who spoke at the Pentagon. This is the full. This is from Doug's own blog, quoting his own book. Now, April, I would usually have you read it, but I know you're not feeling well, so I'm gonna try. Wish me luck.
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B
Good luck.
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C
Here's Doug. Slavery as it existed in the south was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its predominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multiracial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world. The credit for this must go to the predominance of Christianity. The gospel enabled men who were distinct in nearly every way to live and work together, to be friends and often intimates. This happened to such an extent that moderns indoctrinated on civil rights propaganda would be thunderstruck to know the half of it. Slave life was to the slaves a life of plenty of simple pleasures of food, clothes, and good medical care. In spite of the evils contained in the system, we cannot overlook the benefits of slavery for both blacks and whites. Slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the war or since. That is who Pete Hegseth invites to speak at the Pentagon during Black History Month.
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B
It just connected to me that this happened during Black History Month. That's extra gross.
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C
And Doug Wilson, I know all this because I'm researching for a video, Doug Wilson, when, you know, Reverend Jesse Jackson just passed away last week and Doug Wilson did a video on that. And essentially what he says is, he says that the best thing we could do, and he uses the term for the blacks. That's his language of like, yeah, from last week, is to repeal the Civil Rights Act. That's what he says. Again, this man spoke at the Pentagon because Pete Hegseth, who runs the Pentagon, is a disciple of Doug Wilson.
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B
This is why we regularly talk about Christian nationalism and how it's not this fringe out there group that doesn't have any power. Like there is a very, they, they have a very real possibility of taking over and they are inching closer and closer to that now. I do think, I think some, the tides are changing a little bit, especially with this Epstein stuff. There are a lot of people that were MAGA that are waking up and that's going to take some of the, you know, wind out of the Christian nationalist sails. But there's even outside of Trump and Trump's not a Christian nationalist. He's just, he. Trump will latch onto whatever he believes will give him power.
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C
Right? That's right. He's opportunist.
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B
Right. But if when Trump goes away, Christian nationalism will still exist, the Doug Wilsons of the world will still exist and they will still be clawing their way to try to make America a Christian nation, not a Jesus following nation.
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C
No, no, no.
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B
Their idea of Christianity, which is patriarchal, very misogynistic, very white nationalist, and it is something that we shouldn't ignore.
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C
I agree. I think it's worth, if you're cool with it, April, just going through this video from cnn. It's about Three minutes long. Last year, CNN did an expose on Doug Wilson, which kind of got him thrust to the limelight, which, by the way, I'm all about. I think that you should expose these people for what they are in front of the American people. Because statistically, Most Americans, like 85 to 90% strongly disagree with Doug Wilson on almost everything. So by all means, please show the world who is behind the Trump administration. I want to play this for you guys. We can kind of pause as we need to just so you can hear Doug in his own words recently. This isn't back in the 90s or the 80s. This is like a couple months ago. Again, this is Pete Hegseth's pastor. Listen to this.
- [32:27]
D
Women are the kind of people that people come out of.
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G
So you just think they're meant to have babies. That's it. They're just a vessel.
- [32:34]
D
No, it doesn't take any talent to simply reproduce biologically the wife and mother.
- [32:40]
C
That's insane.
- [32:40]
D
Who is the chief executive of the home is entrusted with three or four
- [32:45]
C
or five eternal souls?
- [32:48]
G
I'm here as a working journalist and I'm a mom of three.
- [32:51]
D
Good for you.
- [32:51]
G
Is that an issue?
- [32:52]
D
No, no, it's not automatically an issue.
- [32:55]
G
Christchurch senior.
- [32:56]
C
I want to decode that really quick because Doug Wilson knows. He's talking to cnn. He's not going to come out. Yeah, of course it's an issue. If I had it my way, you'd be back at home where you belong. So he's, he's going to soft coat it. No, it's not inherently an issue, but that, that, that little clarification is loaded. Make no mistake, friends, if Doug Wilson gets the America he wants, this woman does not have a job. She is at home making as many babies as possible, taking care of the kids and cleaning the house, because that's her lot in life. That is what Doug Wilson believes about women. As you just heard a second ago. As you heard a second ago, it takes no talent to make a baby. Are you kidding me? And also, I can't keep it straight. Is birth and is life a miracle and is sacred and holy, or is it just something that happens biologically that takes absolutely no talent? Like, which one is it, Doug?
- [33:44]
B
Which one is it so really rich coming from the man, like the man's contribution in the whole bringing of life situation is laughable. Doug.
- [33:55]
C
I, I agree.
- [33:57]
B
No offense to the men.
- [33:59]
C
I thought you were gonna say. I thought you were gonna say. Just a few seconds. I'd be like. Hey, hey, April. April. All right. Let's be realistic here, you know, but no, you're absolutely correct.
- [34:06]
B
Be realistic. It's a. It's 15 seconds.
- [34:10]
C
No, but you're absolutely correct. And I. I wanna. I will say that when I watched Sarah give birth to both of our kids, and that completely. I said to Sarah, after she gave birth, I said, I. After watching what you just did, it blows my mind that there are people out there, especially men, who think that women are weak or are the weaker vessel. That is nonsense.
- [34:31]
B
For real?
- [34:32]
C
That is nonsense. That is crazy. It's crazy talk. But again, in Doug Wilson's world, here we are.
- [34:39]
B
It also always confused me when they would call women the weaker vessel. But it's men who have to have women cover up their shoulders or suddenly they just fall into lust, can't control themselves. They see a bony shoulder and suddenly they are losing their minds. Which one of those species sounds more like the weaker vessel?
- [35:04]
C
I have to walk around with horse blinders on just so I don't freak out over shoulders, you know?
- [35:09]
B
So stupid. I can't.
- [35:11]
G
Pastor Doug Wilson is the leader of a Christian nationalist movement that believes in a patriarchal society where men are dominant and women are expected to submit. Josh and Amy Prince, along with their four kids, moved from Washington state to Moscow, Idaho, where Wilson's movement is based. Do you see Amy as your equal?
- [35:32]
C
Yes and no. In the sense that we're both saved by grace. We're absolutely on equal footing, but we have very different purposes.
- [35:40]
G
God given, but do you see yourself as the head of the household, as the man?
- [35:46]
H
He is the head of our household, yes. And I do submit to him.
- [35:50]
G
So, like, moving here.
- [35:52]
H
I was just gonna say that.
- [35:53]
G
Your decision.
- [35:54]
H
Yes.
- [35:54]
C
That's a great example.
- [35:56]
G
Wilson says in his vision of a Christian society, women as individuals shouldn't be able to vote. His fellow pastors, Jared Longshore and Toby Sumter agree.
- [36:05]
D
In my ideal society, we would vote as households, and I would ordinarily be the one that would cast the vote, but I would cast the vote, having discussed it with my household.
- [36:15]
B
But what if there's a.
- [36:16]
G
Your wife doesn't want to vote for the same person as you.
- [36:19]
D
Right. Well, then that's a great opportunity for a good discussion.
- [36:22]
B
There are.
- [36:22]
C
Okay, well, we'll cut it right there. I think that is a great note to end on regarding how these men think a discussion is code for my way or the freaking highway. That's what this is.
- [36:34]
B
Here's why you're wrong and why we're going to do it my way.
- [36:38]
C
That's exactly correct. And by the way, if you're wondering if abuse is rampant in these spaces and women are abused by their spouses, you'd be correct because divorce is not an option. And don't forget, if in Doug's world, everything is ordained, who you marry was ordained by God. So the man is the head of the household. The woman has to submit. It's been ordained by God. To go against the church's authority is to go against God's authority, which is to be in rebellion to God. That's. That's the line of logic here that is used to keep women often in very unhealthy and sometimes violent marriages that end in real abuse. I mean legitimately, like harmful stuff that impacts them forever, all because of their, I would argue, horrific reading of the Bible and the outcomes that it produces.
- [37:28]
B
Yeah, it's. It's wild to me how much these men look like commanders in the Handmaid's Tale. Yeah, like, I know Handmaid's Tale is fiction, but they are. They. They look like commanders. I'm sorry, I just. And they act like them too.
- [37:50]
C
Did you see the recent clip from Doug that came out where he says that he is a friend of. And he uses the word, you know, pedophiles. Have you seen that clip?
- [38:00]
I
No.
- [38:01]
C
Yeah, he's being interviewed and he says that he's a friend of pedophiles because they're sinners.
- [38:04]
B
And he actually says that? Yes, verbatim.
- [38:07]
C
You know what? I don't care. I'm gonna look it up just so I can prove it to everyone. I wish I had it, but I forgot to pull.
- [38:16]
B
Surprise me nowadays, because I don't even understand the world we're living in. Did you see. We didn't even discuss this before the show, but did you see that weird official Health and Human Services video the government put out with Kid Rock and RFK Jr?
- [38:32]
C
Yes, I did. Yes, I do.
- [38:34]
B
Like a workout video. And RFK is doing a cold plunge and jeans.
- [38:39]
C
Yeah. Okay, look, I. This is from a 31 minute long video. Maybe we'll try and put a link in here. Let me give the context to. This actually was in April 22, 2022. There's a. There's a very infamous story of Doug Wilson. I'm going to just make a very quick tldr. You can fact check me if you want, but I'm telling you it's true. Essentially, he married off a known pedophile to a woman in his church. The man's name is Steven Sitler. He was Facing a life sentence for saing a child. The judge allowed him to come out of that sentence to be supervised by Doug Wilson in the church. Doug Wilson married that man off to a woman in his church. They had a baby. And then Steven Sitler admitted. And I just trigger warning here. This is, you know, all the things. But he admitted to being stimulated by his infant. That's the best way I can say it. Sorry. That's true though. That's true. That's all true. And Doug Wilson is addressing this. And that's when he says that he's a friend of pedophiles. So I'm just letting you all know, like, you know, we wonder. The Epstein files. I can't believe it. Who are these men? Guys, there is something about. And April, you made this connection too, where you. Maybe it was you or someone else where you said that, like in your church you were sexualized as a young girl.
- [39:52]
B
I did make this connection.
- [39:53]
C
Okay. You want to riff on that?
- [39:55]
B
I do, I do. Yes. My bread and butter.
- [39:57]
H
Okay.
- [39:58]
B
The reason why you'll see a lot of these more conservative evangelicals, MAGA people that are not standing with Epstein survivors is because victim blaming is built into their ideology.
- [40:15]
C
Yeah.
- [40:15]
B
And I know this because as a child, I. As a female child especially, but raised in this world, I was told as a child young, like 8, 9, 10, that I needed to dress modestly so that grown men would not lust after me.
- [40:35]
C
Yeah.
- [40:36]
B
And that is a recurring teaching that is taught to young girls in these churches. And. And honestly, that's what pisses me off about the church saying, oh, drag queens are sexualizing children. When the church and purity culture and evangelicalism is what actually sexualized me as a child. I was 10 years old, living my life, and suddenly I'm told, you know what? You really need to wear a T shirt over that one piece so that the men don't lust after you. And then suddenly I'm feeling shame about my own body as a child. That is what is sexualizing children. Not Drag queen story hour.
- [41:16]
C
Yeah, no, well said. Someone in the chat said this. Rps, you know, pedophiles, irredeemable. I wanna. I wanna address this really quick. Look, I think that all people can get treatment and get help and that anyone can be redeemed. But the way you do that is not by marrying someone like that off to a woman in the church. You. They. There are. There are literal. And actually, I know one. Paul Horde. He's a friend of mine, friend of the show. Him and his brother Billy Horde do great work on disgust theory. It's great stuff. But Paul Horde's a psychologist and he actually talked to me about this, how there are ways to help people like that never reoffend again in society with psychology and with super. All these different things. Right. And also jail time. What you don't do is you don't just marry them off to a young woman in your church and assume that because now he's able to sleep with a woman, that somehow his problems are all fixed. That's my point. There's no real accountability in these systems. The same thing happened with John MacArthur. Right. Who has now passed away. There were great credible accusations that he covered up not one, but two men who abused their own children. And the story is, it's the same. It's the same pattern. Someone comes forward, they don't go to the police. They go to church leadership. Church leadership decides to handle it in house if they can, or they'll petition the government to. To let them handle it in house. Hey, we can help him. And they are not qualified to do so. And then that person re offends. So that's the difference here. I think that all people are made of the image of God. But my gosh, some people need way more help than others and need professionals to be in the mix, helping guidance on how we treat those kinds of people. That's what I'm trying to say here. So, yeah, anyway. Okay. Well, anyway, that's Doug Wilson. What a show. That's Doug Wilson. He spoke at the Pentagon the other day. He is in the mix now. And I do know, last thing I'll say about this is that CNN is airing a Christian nationalism special at 8 o', clock, a whole hour long video or presentation on Christian nationalism Sunday at 8:00 Eastern. And they're featuring Survivors of Christ Church. That's Doug Wilson's church. So props to CNN for doing this story. I think it's really going to be powerful. So make sure to tune into that because I think it's going to be really worth watching. I think that'll be really good.
- [43:38]
I
Hi, my name is Mary and I'm from Nashville, Tennessee, and I'm a monthly donor to the New Evangelicals. I'm really thankful for the work they're doing and I think that there is a really important job to continue. That's why I offer my support. Between the pandemic, Donald Trump, the dehumanization of the LGBTQ community, I just think we really need to reevaluate what we're Doing as a church, as evangelicals, as new evangelicals. So yeah, glad to be a part of this community and love the work.
- [44:22]
C
Okay, the last story we wanted to get to today from the week, man, it's been a busy week, is the James Talarico FCC controversy that's been going on. Have you seen what has happened there, April? Have you followed the news?
- [44:40]
B
Yeah, apparently the FCC said that they were thinking about, what was it?
- [44:50]
C
Equal time rule.
- [44:51]
B
Yeah, enforcing equal time rule for talk show hosts, which they historically have not done. And so cbs, wanting to be safe, decided to not air the interview with James Talarico on Stephen Colbert.
- [45:05]
C
That's right, that's correct, that's the story. And they then were forced to put it on YouTube. So. And I would play the clip, but I don't wanna get flagged by cbs, Cause who the heck knows? But Stephen Colbert essentially said that the FCC told CBS they're considering employing the equal time rule, which states that any qualified candidate who's running for election must receive equal time as their competitor. But there's always been an exemption for, for late night talk talk shows and other forms of media content. And Colbert said that they looked and in the six and they looked back through 60 years of records and I've never seen this act been enforced or been used in late night spaces. Okay, so the FCC says to cbs, hey, we're considering enforcing this. CBS being the cowards that they are, says okay, and then tells the Colbert show, hey, you can't air this interview on national TV. You got to put it on YouTube. That's what happened. That's the story which honestly I think was great, was great press for James Talarico. I think that interview has like 6 million views right now on YouTube, so. Which is way more by the way than late night, you know, shows usually get viewer wise. So I guess it worked out. But it's another example of how this government running on grievance policies is now using the power of the federal government to enforce their authoritarianism. Because I'm not sure about you April, but I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh. And every day that man, he didn't call it the media, he called it the drive by media, the drive by the mainstream media. They're lying to you. The entire apparatus is built on this like grievance that CBS and NBC and ABC are left wing, which by the way, as like a leftist myself, is kind of hilarious because they're really not. But I think that this is just another example of how we always say that Christian nationalism, when it gets the power that it wants, it's always going to use it in a way where it benefits them at the expense of anyone else who gets in their way. Right. Because they're never going to go to Fox News or and go to one of their late late night shows and go, hey, Fox, we might enforce the equal time rule here because we only see you promoting a lot of right wing candidates. Right. They're never going to do that. They're going after Colbert, they're going after Jimmy Kimmel. People that they see as enemies of the administration.
- [47:33]
B
Right. Which is a sign of fascism.
- [47:35]
C
Big time.
- [47:36]
B
Boo on CBS for caving ahead of time, too. Like, the way they're bending over for this administration is gross.
- [47:46]
C
Well, this isn't the first time. Right. They killed that story on the, on the El Salvador prisons, like last minute. Right. They just canned it. So, yeah. This is not the first time this has happened. But the interview, I watched it yesterday with Talarico was great. And I think that, I guess the silver lining is that these stories that go mega viral hopefully are waking Americans up to what is going on and why we should be gravely concerned and why the midterms matter more than ever now, you know, And I mean that sincerely. So. Yeah.
- [48:15]
B
And props to Colbert for just like going he's on air on CBS and calling out cbs. Yes, for bending the knee.
- [48:24]
C
But also his show's being canceled, so I guess he has nothing to lose, you know, which is great. I mean, dude, go out. If you're going to go down, go down swinging and take whoever you can with you.
- [48:32]
B
You know, I have to say, early voting is going on in Texas right now and I do not envy the people that have to choose between James Talarico and Jasmine Crockett because I think they're both great.
- [48:43]
C
Yep. Either way, Texas has a great nominee on their hands, so I'm rooting for both of them. Yeah. Okay. Well, shall we get to our final segment?
- [48:55]
B
Please. We Christian
- [49:03]
C
friends, thanks so much for hanging in there with us. I know it's been a kind of a different show than usual with April not feeling well and our stream not working 100%. But thanks for being here and hanging out with us as we kind of recap the news. It really means the world. This is a doozy.
- [49:19]
B
Let me just tell you the last. This one just showed up for me on my feed organically.
- [49:26]
C
Okay. For those listening on podcast, this is a mom with her child. They're making some kind of food. Also, the mom is wearing one of these, like, Maga Make America healthy again shirts. So that's also in the mix. And I will let this play. Here we go.
- [49:44]
H
Proverbs actually has two verses. That's part of my reason for homeschooling. Proverbs 13:20. Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise. It's a companion. What's a companion? Friend, do you know who would fools be? People who just don't know the Bible anymore. They have a lot of immaturity in their life. I'm going to show you someone that the Bible says is a fool. Go look at Proverbs 22:15. Paul is bound up in the heart of a child.
- [50:12]
I
But the
- [50:15]
H
folly, that's foolishness. So who does the Bible say has a lot of foolishness in their heart? Child. Children.
- [50:20]
B
Oh, dear.
- [50:24]
H
If foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, why would I send you to public school where you'd be surrounded by foolish children all day? Do you see that? Yeah. But if instead we kept you home and we grew you in wisdom and we had you around people who I trust to be wise, don't you think then you will grow up and be wise?
- [50:43]
D
Yeah.
- [50:44]
H
So do you see how Proverbs gives us a reason to homeschool?
- [50:48]
B
Just don't send your children to school, Period.
- [50:51]
D
Period.
- [50:53]
H
Do you think that means you should never be around children? No. No. But there's a difference between being around them here and there and having it be all day, every day. School would be all day, every day. Some people will say, well, if you don't send your kid to school, they'll never learn how to be social and be around other people. Do you have any problem talking to people? You're the most unshy child. Oh, yeah. The reason for that is you don't have to go be around a bunch of kids to learn how to socialize. You can learn how to socialize being around adults, being around your family. There's many ways to learn how to socialize. So do you see why who you hang out with is important? Important. We want to make sure that you're hanging out with wise people. Yeah.
- [51:37]
B
The way she just face plan, like, shoved that kid's face away from her.
- [51:44]
C
Her shirt says make America great, Healthy, safe, affordable, godly. Again, none of which Trump is doing.
- [51:51]
B
Yeah, I just want to point that out.
- [51:53]
C
It's definitely not affordable, that's for sure. Look, I. I want to take this one on first, because I am a homeschooler. I was a former homeschooler. I was homeschooled until ninth grade. And then I went to a very small private school where I graduated top five in my class out of six students in my senior year. And three of them were Korean boarding school students. Okay. So I had a very unique school upbringing, and I was both in the
- [52:15]
B
top five and the bottom five.
- [52:17]
C
Okay, all right. Can we just look at the top five? I was both a winner and a loser at the same time. So here's what I will say. As a homeschooler, I would say that the social aspect is more dependent on the nature of the child and their family environment than being homeschooled or public school. I had no problem socializing as a kid, but also I went to church a lot, so I had social circles I could operate in. However, as a parent now, I could never imagine telling my child that they are just foolish, period. Like, I just find that so denigrating to my kids. Not that my kids can't make unwise decisions. I mean, they're kids. But to like reinforce that notion that you're just a foolish child, it's just not a healthy long term. It just isn't.
- [53:09]
B
No. And the thing is, the reason why children, Children are not foolish. Children are children.
- [53:18]
C
Yeah.
- [53:19]
B
Children are learning. They're. They're developing. Like they, they only know what they know. And so are they immature. I think they're children. Right. The Bible compares fools to acting like children because they're talking about adults that act like children are foolish, not that children are foolish. It's.
- [53:41]
C
So
- [53:44]
B
I was also homeschooled until seventh grade, and then I went to a small public school, and then I was homeschooled again. And then I went to a huge public school and then I went to private Christian school. So I have literally, I've tried all the education, all the flavors, and I. There is. You learn so much socially by going to school and being around other kids. Like, learning how to socialize with peers is invaluable, in my opinion. And that's not to dis homeschooling. Like, I think, I think it's great if, if you have a valid reason to homeschool your child, great. Like, do it. Do what's best for your family. What, what annoys me is when homeschooling people, homeschoolers, dis public school. As if you're just going to be surrounded by like, fools. And her definition of what a fool is too was like, they don't know the Bible.
- [54:44]
C
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. I mean, look, I think homeschooling could be great. Especially for neurodivergent kids. Absolutely. Because you can create your own kind of rhythm for them. Right. So that I think there's a beautiful thing. And homeschooling can be a viable option. So it's not about denigrating homeschoolers, but when you're an evangelical fundamentalist and you're a reason for homeschooling is because like you just said, you know, you don't want your kid to be indoctrinated by the world because they don't follow the Bible. How you do that is setting your kid up for failure because one day they're going to wake up and they're going to meet friends outside of your bubble. Maybe it's at their first job that isn't, you know, that is in the secular world. At some point, sooner or later they're going to encounter people different than them and that's going to mess up the cute little bubble that you built for them where everything is simple and easy and binary and you're the good guys and they're the bad guys and then you won't be equipped to have that conversation. Right. I think there's something really healthy about if your kid goes to any kind of school with other kids. You're navigating coming of age stories with them as a parent, right. You're navigating the beautiful parts and the painful parts. Right. Things that I don't want my kid to have to face, but they're going to face no matter what. So I want to be there to walk it through with them at this age instead of being 18, 19, 20 and who knows, right. So anyway, it's just very. It's annoying.
- [56:08]
B
It is annoying. Honestly, it's a little triggering too because I feel bad for those kids because they are currently being indoctrinated by their parents into this right wing, probably Christian nationalist worldview. And they're being taught that they have the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and they should never go anywhere else to learn anything else because anything outside of their belief system is dangerous. Anyone that they meet outside of their belief system is dangerous. And so they are teaching those children to fear the other. And one day that kid's going to grow up just as you said, and meet somebody that's different and their worldview will collapse.
- [56:56]
C
Here's a proverb. Scorners delight in their scorning and fools hate knowledge. There you go. Like, come on, mom, you can do it.
- [57:08]
B
Not to mention like I most like, and I'm sure there are exceptions to this world but, but I would imagine most of these, like, really right wing moms that are homeschooling their kids, they probably don't have the credentials to actually teach their kids what those kids need to be taught. I know I wouldn't, I didn't go to school to be a teacher. Like, I don't have an educational degree. Like, even if I wanted to homeschool my kids, Like, I know that sending my kids to a, to a school where there are teachers who actually got degrees in this, who are actually trained to teach children, I know they're going to get a better education from them than from me.
- [57:49]
C
Yep, 100%. I'm, you know, props to my mom because she realized when I hit ninth grade, she's like, I can't teach you algebra. You have to go somewhere to get taught how to do algebra. You know, and so I appreciate that. Right. Even with our, so our son Tim, he's five, he's on the spectrum. He's, he's autistic. And thank God that our public school system has an amazing, robust team working with him in all different ways to help him get, get what he needs. Me and my wife could never be fully equipped to handle and give him what he needs because we're not professional educators who are trained in how to handle neurodivergent kids. Right. But we're working with them to make sure that at home he gets what he needs and at school he gets what he needs. So there is a way to make it a beautiful partnership because shocker alert. One thing I learned having a kid in public school for the first time is that turns out teachers actually like kids a lot of the times. In fact, sometimes educators go into education because they want to help kids learn. They actually enjoy it, which is, you know, kind of the opposite of what we hear from right wing media that, you know, these teachers are trying to groom kids and they hate students and they're trying to indoctrinate them. In our experience, that couldn't be further from the truth. These teachers are working overtime with our son to help him make sure that he has what he needs, you know, to, to handle the classroom environment.
- [59:04]
B
Right.
- [59:05]
C
It's, it's, it's wonderful.
- [59:06]
B
We can't afford to have Kleenex in the class. Like, we've got to donate Kleenex boxes to them. Like, they're not making time to indoctrinate your children.
- [59:14]
C
Right, right, right. Yeah, exactly.
- [59:17]
B
They don't have the bandwidth for that.
- [59:19]
C
Exactly. They're, they're too busy asking you for number two pencils. Anyway. All right, friends. Well, listen, thanks again so much for being here. Please make sure to give this video a. Like, subscribe to the channel. Oh, big announcement. We forgot to say this. April, we will not be dropping an episode Tuesday because we're going live Tuesday night to live stream the State of the Union address so you don't have to watch it alone. Okay. We will be with you. We will be maybe drinking, who knows? But we will be on the air with you live watching Trump's. I think this is his first address under this. Under this term, I believe. So that will be happening. You'll find it on YouTube. We're trying to make it happen on substack as well.
- [60:03]
B
So he did some sort of address?
- [60:05]
C
Yeah, but it wasn't like an official one.
- [60:06]
B
It was. Yeah, but he, like, called it randomly so bad. So, like, it was like a State of the Union. But it was. It was weird to do it before his first year.
- [60:16]
C
April, is this possible? You're the bingo card.
- [60:19]
B
Bingo card.
- [60:19]
C
What do you think?
- [60:20]
B
I mean, yeah, I could probably make some bingo cards for the State of the Union if that's what the people want.
- [60:26]
C
The people have spoken. So we will see you all Tuesday. What. What time is. Whatever time it starts?
- [60:31]
B
I think it starts at 9 Eastern. It's gonna be a late night.
- [60:35]
C
Never mind. Change of plans. We're not going to do that.
- [60:39]
B
No, we'll be there. We'll be tired and cranky.
- [60:43]
C
Yes. Together. You will not be alone. All right, friends. Hey, thanks for hanging in there. I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [60:49]
B
I'm April.
- [60:50]
D
Ajoy.
- [60:50]
C
See ya. Feel better, April.
- [60:52]
B
Thank you,
- [61:01]
D
Sam.