91. MAGA Says Sharing Bible Verses is Woke Now

Summary

The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals) Episode 91: "MAGA Says Sharing Bible Verses is Woke Now" Date: March 3, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim and April dive into the latest culture war moment on (what they humorously still call) Twitter, where MAGA-aligned Christians have erupted with outrage after conservative theologian John Piper simply tweeted a Bible verse about loving immigrants. The episode dissects the irony and projection behind calling Piper “woke,” exposes the selective biblical interpretation at play, and unpacks how Christian nationalism’s kryptonite might just be… the Bible itself. The hosts bring their trademark blend of humor, honesty, and incisive critique to unravel faith, politics, and culture, especially where they disastrously interconnect.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Opening Banter: Growing Up Evangelical and Moral “Rules”

• [00:22–04:52]
  • Tim and April reminisce about the odd, often-legalistic cultural rules in evangelical circles—especially concerning fantasy TV like Game of Thrones. April recounts how as newlyweds, she and her spouse jokingly watched “Naked Thrones” to rationalize watching the “worldly” series as good evangelicals.
  • Notable Quote [03:25, April]:
    “Why don’t we just call it Naked Thrones? Because we’re married and we’ll just watch Game of Thrones naked. And whenever the nudity comes on the screen, we’ll just look at each other—”

2. Main Story: John Piper’s Bible Verse Sparks MAGA Fury

• [05:00–17:35]
  • John Piper, a legendary Reformed theologian, tweeted Leviticus 19:34 about loving the stranger and “sojourner.” No political context—just the verse and a generic reflection.
  • MAGA Twitter, including various Christian nationalist influencers—Ali Stuckey, Sean Foyt, Dale Partridge, Jack Posobiec, and others—explode into outrage, accusing Piper of being “woke” and weaponizing Scripture for leftist politics, especially immigration.
  • Notable Quote [17:03, Sean Foyt via April]:
    “Never imagined a theologian I once looked up to would become so unbelievably woke while weaponizing scripture to justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.”

Irony & Hypocrisy

• Tim and April highlight the irony: These figures often build their entire platform on being “biblical,” yet when a Bible verse makes them uncomfortable (and seems to support immigrant rights), they denounce it as leftist.
• [17:35, April]:
  “The kryptonite to Christian nationalism is the Bible. Especially the teachings of Jesus. But apparently even Leviticus can be woke...”

3. Selective Reading and Contextual Hypocrisy

• [18:20–21:01]
  • The hosts analyze how the same “biblical literalists” demand strict context and nuance only when the Bible contradicts their politics. April recounts Tim’s earlier debate with Ali Stuckey, where she invoked context to soften biblical passages on slavery—but refused to do the same for anti-LGBTQ clobber verses.
  • Notable Quote [18:43, Tim]:
    “She couldn't see how she selectively appeals to context and different forms of slavery in back then. So...suddenly the verses...translated to the word homosexual…is an emphatic, objective reality and we’re the ones twisting God’s word.”

4. John Piper’s Actual Theology: Conservative, Not “Woke”

• [21:10–26:02]
  • Tim unpacks Piper’s deep Reformed beliefs—Calvinism (TULIP), complementarianism, and spiritualizing of scripture. April and Tim clarify Piper is no progressive; he’s been criticized by MAGA types for not being sycophantic enough, but remains highly conservative.
  • They play clips from Piper’s teaching, including his “Coronavirus and Christ” view that COVID was God’s will to make people rely on Him.

5. Disturbing Clips: Submission & Abuse in Complementarianism

• [24:07–32:13]
  • The show pivots to the longstanding evangelical doctrine of female submission. Tim plays clips from Piper’s infamous “Ask Pastor John” series about abusive husbands, in which Piper disturbingly suggests women may be called to “endure perhaps being smacked one night and then she seeks help from the church.”
  • April compares this to Laurie Alexander’s (‘The Transformed Wife’) teachings, which analogize refusing COVID vaccines with refusing “anal sex”—showing the strange sexual preoccupations of this milieu.
  • Memorable Reactions [32:02, Tim/April]:
    Tim: “This is who Sean Foyt calls woke.”
    April: “Friends, endure the abuse for a season…maybe a smack or two.”

6. Weaponized Scripture: The MAGA Playbook

• [33:20–35:40]
  • Sean Foyt retaliates against Piper by quoting Isaiah 1:7 out of context to justify his own nativist politics. The hosts lampoon the hypocrisy—out-of-context Bible verses are fine as long as they support conservative power.
  • Tim notes data disproving the right’s anti-immigrant panic (undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes and commit fewer crimes than citizens), framing these reactions as pure projection and performance.

7. Ultimate Take: When Scripture Is “Woke,” Christian Nationalism Is Idolatry

• [36:35–38:13]

  • April contends that anyone who labels basic commands to love strangers as “leftist” is revealing their faith is primarily about ideology, not discipleship. Jesus’ teachings—helping the poor, the stranger, the powerless—were radical then and are radical now. Refusing them is spiritual and political idolatry.

• Notable Quote [36:35, April]:
  “If you can read a scripture and you immediately think this is woke and leftist and the person posting it has political motivations—that is just pure projection... It’s fine for them to post scripture out of context... But as soon as someone posts something that sounds a little bit woke—and newsflash, the teachings of Jesus are pretty left…maybe your faith is not actually about following Jesus, but it’s about making a certain political ideology your idol.”

8. Closing: The Real Message of Jesus

• [38:47–39:50]
  • Tim closes the episode reading the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). April quips, “I think you’ve got a political agenda.”
  • The show wraps on a note of both resigned laughter and challenge to listeners: Don’t let the Bible’s plain calls to justice be co-opted by nationalism or fear.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps and Attribution)

• [03:25, April Ajoy]: “Why don’t we just call it Naked Thrones? Because we’re married and we’ll just watch Game of Thrones naked. And whenever the nudity comes on the screen, we’ll just look at each other—”

• [07:12, Tim Whitaker, reading Piper’s tweet]: “‘Clap your hands, all peoples. Shout to God with loud songs of joy. For the Lord…’ That’s it. Okay, cool.”

• [09:10, Tim Whitaker]: “John Piper cites this about Sojourners, and suddenly John Piper’s a big dumb idiot who knows nothing about the Bible.”

• [17:03, Sean Foyt via April]: “Never imagined a theologian I once looked up to would become so unbelievably woke while weaponizing scripture to justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.”

• [17:35, April Ajoy]: “The kryptonite to Christian nationalism is the Bible. Especially the teachings of Jesus. But apparently even Leviticus can be woke, according to these people.”

• [18:43, Tim Whitaker]: “She couldn’t see how she selectively appeals to context and different forms of slavery in back then. So…suddenly the verses...translated to the word homosexual…is an emphatic, objective reality and we’re the ones twisting God’s word.”

• [32:02, Tim & April]: Tim: “This is who Sean Foyt calls woke.”
  April: “Friends, endure the abuse for a season…maybe a smack or two.”

• [36:35, April Ajoy]: “If you can read a scripture and you immediately think this is woke and leftist…that is just pure projection...maybe your faith is not actually about following Jesus, but it’s about making a certain political ideology your idol…”

• [39:50, Tim Whitaker]: “‘Blessed are the poor in spirit…Blessed are the meek…Blessed are the merciful’…Man, I don’t know, it sounds kind of woke and liberal.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:00] — Main segment begins: John Piper’s tweet
• [09:10] — Breakdown of conservative backlash
• [13:07] — Ironies of the MAGA reaction
• [17:03] — Sean Foyt calls John Piper “woke”
• [18:20] — Selective biblical literalism/context
• [22:52] — Piper’s Calvinism and his COVID theology
• [24:07–32:13] — Abusive submission: Piper and The Transformed Wife
• [33:20] — Weaponizing scripture for political ends
• [36:35] — “Woke” as projection and the dangers of Christian nationalism
• [38:47] — The Beatitudes and closing reflections

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Tone and Style

• Tone: Irreverent, sharp, compassionate, occasionally acerbic but always concerned with justice and truth over tribalism
• Language: Candid, occasionally playful, using inside-baseball evangelical references, with serious engagement with faith and practical theology

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Summary Takeaway

Tim and April’s discussion turns a Twitter schism over an Old Testament verse into a prism exposing the hollowness, hypocrisy, and idolatry at the heart of Christian nationalism. The episode’s throughline is clear: when even ancient calls to love the stranger are branded as “woke,” it’s proof that MAGA has become its own anti-biblical religion. The ultimate challenge? Return to the radical, inconvenient, boundary-breaking teachings of Jesus—even if it means getting called “woke” by the gatekeepers.

Transcript

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

You need to watch the Pit. It's fantastic.

[April Ajoy]

I've heard good things.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't do well with. With, like, Hospital Gore. You just kind of get through it. It's not over the top, but it's definitely. It's there.

[April Ajoy]

But this show is so good avid, like, Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon watcher, and that's. That stuff can be pretty gory, but there's something about, like, the realism of Hospital gore that is harder for me.

[Tim Whitaker]

I used to judge people like you, and I was a good evangelical for watching that stuff and compromising your faith for watching Game of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah, the Pit. Have you ever seen 24 Jack Bauer?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, but I never was an avid watcher. I saw a couple episodes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. So the Pit is one shift. Kind of like how 24 hours is 24 hours.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. That's cool. I'll say. It gives me.

[Tim Whitaker]

You should watch it.

[April Ajoy]

I should watch it. We're watching a lot of shows right now. There's a new Game of Thrones show called Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Do you watch that?

[Tim Whitaker]

Sounds lame. I've never watched Game of Thrones in my life.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm a Christian. April, shut up.

[April Ajoy]

I love fantasy shows.

[Tim Whitaker]

People are gonna be surprised how you talk to me off the air.

[John Piper]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

As I said, shut up. Because you didn't watch, like, the biggest show ever when it was airing.

[Tim Whitaker]

I know. I felt like I was standing firm for Christ by not giving into the world.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. You know what's so funny? I don't know if I've ever told you this story. So Beecher. I met Beecher in film school. They were. Beecher's my spouse. For those who don't know, Beecher was there for film school. I was there for my journalism degree. But we linked up, you know? Like, I. I was on a lot of film sets. Doesn't matter. They're in film school. So they had already seen Game of Thrones because they were like. And I think only three seasons had been out at the time, so they were just watching all of the things. And I never had HBO because I was a good little evangelical girl. And I was broke college student, so I couldn' Afford hbo. Anyway, so fast forward. Beecher and I get married. Lord of the Rings are my favorite movies of all time. Like, I just love fantasy. And so I had always been intrigued by Game of Thrones. Because I was described to me as Lord of the Rings with sex. Right. And I'm like, sign me up. Yeah. I'm just saying, it was. I was intrigued.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And so Beer and I get married, and this is like, maybe month one after we got married, we're living in our little two bedroom apartment and we decide. I was like, you know what? I would really like to watch Game of Thrones. And I feel like now that we're married, it's okay if we're watching it together. And so how we justified it, we would do. We told ourselves, this is. This is so evangelical cringe. But we were like, you know what? Why don't we just call it Naked Thrones? Because we're married and we'll just watch Game of Thrones naked. And whenever the nudity comes on the screen, we'll just look at each other.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you want this on the air?

[April Ajoy]

We did that. Listen, we've already talked about this on our, like, our podcast, the Non Binary Marriage. We confess this already.

[Tim Whitaker]

You confess. I should have had the pad going for that. Wow.

[April Ajoy]

But I loved Game of Thrones. Like, it was. We eventually stopped. We eventually stopped doing that. We're like, this is stupid. We're fine.

[Tim Whitaker]

We still do it today. We still do it to be extra secure.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. Our children would die.

[Tim Whitaker]

Funny. Wow.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Cool.

[April Ajoy]

We were. I was a worship leader at church, too. That was. That was like how I justified it to myself.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hey, whatever. Hey, we all create the narratives, right? I. I totally understand that for sure. Okay, well, on that note, I'm trying to get over. Sorry. It's wild.

[April Ajoy]

It might be tmi. Listen, beat your nose. This is not a secret.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're all adults. Most of us grew up evangelical. We all have weird stories of things like that in our own translation, right? That would be like. You did that? It's like, yeah. That wasn't normal for you. It's like, no, but this was. And that's just as weird. So we all have our weird stuff.

[April Ajoy]

No, we kind of did it, like, tongue and cheek, too. Like, you know, like, we kind of knew it was weird, but why not? Like, if someone ask, we can just say, we do this.

[Tim Whitaker]

So fair. Fair. Well, welcome to the show, everyone. Tim and April, welcome in. Oh, by the way, comment if you want April to watch the pit. Just want to say, you should definitely leave a comment for April.

[April Ajoy]

Comment if you want Tim to watch Game of Thrones.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, wow. But you Expect me to watch your show.

[Tim Whitaker]

I do, I do. Because speaking of our topic today, male headship.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. No, our topic today, we changed it last minute because we both saw this happening on Twitter.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

[April Ajoy]

We'll just get into it. Welcome to the show. By the way, did we even do an official welcome?

[Tim Whitaker]

No, you were going to do it and then we got distracted.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, because you were like, oh, we're talking about this. We're going to record this. I want this to be on the show.

[Tim Whitaker]

You want the organic conversation, April. It's how people want. You know, the people are here to watch us talk and yap. Trying to give the people what what they want.

[April Ajoy]

Talking, yap. Well, speaking of yapping, there are a lot of maga Christians on Twitter, dead name for X, that are losing their minds right now. Losing it over something that is so stupid. Stupid like these they are telling on themselves. I'm so giddy, I literally laughed out loud because. Same John Piper. If you don't know who John Piper is, he is a conservative theologian, a pastor. He's written books, He's a Calvinist. So he's one of yours?

[Tim Whitaker]

He's one of mine, yeah. This dude's been around for a long time. I mean, yes. I think since like the 70s he's been doing this stuff, but he's been around. He's been around, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So John Piper did the cardinal sin of posting on Twitter.

[Tim Whitaker]

Should we just kind of go through. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Piper's Twitter. Okay. He's got how many followers he got? He's got almost a million.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ajoy]

Followers. Yeah. So he. He also runs the website desiring God, like that's his. And there are some doozies of articles which.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're going to show you a video or two in a minute.

[April Ajoy]

So if you scroll on his feed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

All he has pretty much are just Bible verses. He's got copy, paste Bible verse and then a little add on that is just like. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

For the podcast audience. Right. Seven hours ago, Piper tweets out, clap your hands, all peoples. Shout to God with loud songs of joy. For the Lord the most high is to be feared. A great king over all the earth. Psalm 47, 1, 2. Caption, O peoples, fear not finding the king of all the earth to be your joy. Okay, cool.

[April Ajoy]

19 hours ago, same thing. Psalm 46. And then he says, in the darkness of trouble, he will most surely be found. Reach out and there he is. Yeah, here's another one. Matthew 21:5.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep. Behold your king. Yep.

[April Ajoy]

February 25th. So he posts a Bible verse from Leviticus, and I'm just going to read you the whole verse, the entire tweet, what he included. Also he says, quote, you shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:34. Christians know the miserable bondage we were all in. That is the tweet. And honestly, his little ad on there. Christians know the miserable bondage we were all in. I don't know what he's talking about because Christians did not exist in this verse. Oh, I can answer that.

[Tim Whitaker]

I can answer that. So John Piper is a Calvinist. He's also an evangelical, so everything is hyper spiritualized for him.

[Tom]

So.

[Tim Whitaker]

So what he's saying is that we were foreigners to God. We were foreigners of God's kingdom spiritually. And so before we were in his mind, predestined and chosen by God to be saved, we were in miserable bondage to sin. Like to me, as a former Calvinist, I know exactly what he's saying here. I do not read this as political at all. For him, it's completely spiritual. There's no politics in his mind when he's saying this at all.

[April Ajoy]

So enter in maga Christians, they get

[Tim Whitaker]

so mad, so mad losing their mind over this verse. By the way, we need to say, I think it's Leviticus 20. Is the. Is one of the clobber verses where these MAGA people will insist that, quote, homosexuality is an abomination. They'll just take the verse and rip it and call it God's truth. John Piper cites this about Sojourners, and suddenly John Piper's a big dumb idiot who knows nothing about the Bible.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, they think that. Yeah, I saw. Some people are like, it is irresponsible to post this verse in this political climate.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, look at these responses. This guy named Jamie Bambrick, he, quote, tweets it me looking for where this verse says we need to lose billions in welfare fraud and let sexual assault gangs assault little girls. Like, what is this dude even talking about?

[April Ajoy]

No context.

[Tim Whitaker]

None, None. Just quote tweeting, yeah, our favorite personality, sucky, goes at it.

[Tom]

Oh, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

I will say to her credit at the top, she says, maybe we're all reading too much in this. But then she posts a novel on the importance of borders.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey, everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne we creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt seen or or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[Tom]

My name is Tom, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I donate to the New Evangelicals the Pentecostal Christian fundamentalism of my childhood insisted that I could not be both gay and Christian. For over a year and a half, I participated in an ex Gay Live in program that tried to rid me of my gayness. I left the group as a gay man and rejected my Christianity. But in time I could no more stop being Christian than I could stop being gay. The Jesus heart drew me back to Christian story and symbol. Embarrassingly, not until my mid-40s did the blatant obviousness of it all speak to my heart as if from a burning bush. I get to decide if I'm a follower of Jesus. No one else gets to decide that. For me, that realization was my true born again experience. The New Evangelicals welcomes all seekers, and they welcome questions. The fundamentalist idolatry of right belief and its arrogant adherence to a creed frozen in time eclipse the true Christian message. I support the New Evangelicals because they understand that it's tax season, and at

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[Tim Whitaker]

Now here's the ironic part. Let me tell you the ironic part about Ali's long I mean, this is like six paragraphs. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not going to read it you can imagine what she would say. Two things. One, the reason why she's softballing this is because John Piper is part of her theological tribe. John MacArthur and John Piper are like two of the greats of modern American Reformed theology. So this is her guy number two, I find it so wild that Ali Stuckey, who comes from a world where submission to men and husbands and women can't preach right, goes on a full on expose of her interpretation of scripture. As if we should trust Ali's version. Interpretation compared to what, John Piper's. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, at least John Piper has credentials. I mean, I think he's way off. At least he's like, he has an education in his tradition. Alice Duckey is just a commentator who knows nothing. And here she is, like, trying to correct Piper. Oh, my God, that's hilarious.

[April Ajoy]

Hilarious actually promotes, like, male headship and women, like, not being leaders. I will say Ali Bestecky also gets in hot water from a lot of conservative men who say that she shouldn't be talking about scripture because she's a woman.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So this guy, also, Josh Dawes, wrote a novel saying why this was inappropriate to post.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like even Jack Posobic. Jack Posobic.

[April Ajoy]

QAnon.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Q. And. And is a host of Charlie Kirk Show. He's one of the. He's one of the hosts. And he says sojourn means someone who stops by and shortly leaves. That's it.

[Melinda Hale]

Is.

[April Ajoy]

Piper didn't say anything about that? He's not talking about American politics, Nothing.

[Tim Whitaker]

Where's the one I love, though? Dale Partsridge.

[April Ajoy]

I call him Daldo because he's just. He's such an. I. I can't stand it. I've had so many run ins with this man. He says, I love Dr. Piper, but this folly must stop. Again, all he did was post the scripture verse.

[Tim Whitaker]

And here's. Here's the funny part. His first. His first statement to correlate these instructions to Israel with the circumstances facing America is simply irresponsible theology. Hey, Dale. I agree with you, which is why maybe we should stop relying on your interpretation of Old Testament law to govern the freaking nation. Maybe the verses about God. Sorry.

[April Ajoy]

No, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. You're good. Also, it's so funny because John Piper didn't say any of this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Exactly.

[April Ajoy]

They're getting triggered for no reason.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my. It's.

[Tom]

It's.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's just unbelievable. And then there's Justin Peters again. These are all, like, heavyweights of this Theological tribe. And he says, good grief, sojourners in the OT were subject to the same laws as Israel. Read through numbers 15. If a foreigner comes into another country illegally, he has by definition broken established laws. And what this has to do with spiritual bondage pre regeneration, I am not sure. Just completely reading into this, his own political bias. And by the way, if I was talking to Justin, I would say, hey, Justin, do you know that this administration is targeting legal immigrants, that they're targeting legal asylum seekers, legal refugees? Do you know that? Justin, this is not about quote unquote unique undocumented immigrants. Okay? It's not even about that. Frankly. Annoying. All right, where's the one though that really got us? Here it is. This is the one.

[April Ajoy]

Okay. Sean Foyt. He has done worship services at the White House, at the Capitol building. He's like openly Christian nationalist. He did worship protests during the global pandemic.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

He quote tweets John Piper's Bible verse and says, never imagined a theologian I once looked up to would become so unbelievably woke while weaponizing scripture to justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

[Tim Whitaker]

My God.

[April Ajoy]

God, imagine being Sean Foyt and accusing someone else of weaponizing scripture.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a knee slapper, April. It's a freaking knee slapper. I love, I love how the same people who are like, we are biblical Christians, we follow the word of God. John Piper just post a Bible verse. Sean Floyd, John Piper so woke. Like, what are you talking about? He just. It's. It's in the Bible, dude. It's in the Bible.

[April Ajoy]

But this is why you and I talk about so many times that the kryptonite to Christian nationalism is the Bible.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Especially the teachings of Jesus. But apparently even Leviticus can be woke, according to these people.

[Tim Whitaker]

As long as it's that verse. If it's about homosexuality or the. Or the perceived idea of that in Leviticus, well then it's just biblical, guys. It's biblical. We have to overturn a burger fell. But when we talk about the sojourner, well, that's not what we're talking about here. That's not what this is. He's woke. It's. This is the selective picking and choosing of what gets applied to the nation and what doesn't. And it just so happens that these so called biblical Christians have a theology that just miraculously lines up with everything that maga's doing. What are the odds? What are the odds?

[April Ajoy]

And notice how we take the Bible literally. Unless it's a verse that, you know, makes us feel convicted. Then suddenly, oh, well, you need to apply context to that. And we need to look at the culture of the time and we need to look at the definitions of this word and look at what like suddenly, suddenly they put on their thinking caps and use so like context.

[Tim Whitaker]

So when I debated Ali Stuckey on Jubilee, whatever a couple months ago, I used this exact tactic to get her into a corner where she essentially said that slavery in the Bible is not what we think of today. There's different types of slavery. Context matters. And I said to her, you're making the case for why we believe in queer inclusion because we don't believe, based on the cultural context that we know about, that homosexuality of today or same sex marriage is anything remotely similar to what, what the Bible is describing. And she couldn't see it. She couldn't see it. She couldn't see how she selectively appeals to context and different forms of slavery in back then. So when Paul says for slaves to obey their masters, it's not that bad. But suddenly the verses that are translated to the word homosexual, even though that isn't the original word in the, in the language somehow is an emphatic, objective reality and we're the ones twisting God's word.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, but also beyond the fact that they just got so triggered by a Bible verse. Literally triggered. That's it. Like if you're triggered by a Bible verse, I think that is a sign that you need to look inwardly maybe and figure out if you actually follow the book that you claim you follow. If you get this mad over a

[Tim Whitaker]

Bible verse or as we were taught, maybe the Holy Spirit's convicting you. Maybe you're just not as regenerate as you once thought. I mean, God's word will pierce through the hardest hearts, Right. It will convict people who are holding sinful ideals. Maybe Ali and Sean and Justin Peters. Maybe you're holding sinful beliefs and the Holy Spirit is pricking your conscience. Conscience.

[April Ajoy]

One would think. One would think.

[Tim Whitaker]

One would think. But man, we are outside of that.

[April Ajoy]

The fact that they are attacking John Piper as woke is actually so idiotic because John Piper now, he's not as maga as a lot of people. He has come out. He kind of. When it came out against Trump, was it in 2020, he didn't exactly come out against him. He gave a very wishy washy of like, I understand how a Christian could not vote for him, sort of. I don't know if you remember that article or not.

[Tim Whitaker]

I do.

[April Ajoy]

He's Also not one of the most problematic, but is also problematic. He's very misogynistic, complementarian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

And by no definition is John Piper woke up.

[Tim Whitaker]

So here's how I would define John Piper. John Piper is someone who I would argue holds to his own convictions better than John MacArthur or these other folks do, because he has not been very political at all through the Trump administration. He's even critiqued some things when you know, here or there lightly, because he knows his audience. But he's not this, like, MAGA sycophant. However, the theology that John preaches is one of the foundational theologies that leads to MAGA type outcomes. Okay, so John Piper is a Calvinist. And the TLDR is that Calvinism believes that you are predestined by God to be saved. They use an acronym called tulip. T stands for total depravity. You are dead in your sins as a person. You're spiritually dead. You can't be woken back up on your own because can dead people come back to life? Unless you're Christ. No, of course not. U stands for unconditional election. That once you are chosen by God, it's unconditional. It will happen. L stands for limited atonement. The work of Christ on the cross only applies to the elect. I stands for irresistible grace. Once you are called by God and his grace is given to you, you cannot resist it. And then P stands for perseverance of the saints. Once you're saved, you're always saved. Okay, that's what tulip is. And this is a man who during COVID I have a little clip here we'll play. And then we're gonna play the real Doozy. This is just kind of how he talked about COVID Let me play this for you. A little short from his book, Coronavirus in Christ, which, by the way, I read it through the entirety in 2020. Here's a little. A little snippet.

[April Ajoy]

Unironically?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, unironically. Well, no, sorry, that's not true. I wasn't as far along the path as I am now. But I was curious, but also didn't really believe John at this point. But I wanted to hear how he was gonna frame it. So that's how I would say this

[John Piper]

life threatening experience was to make us rely not on ourselves, but on God who raises the dead. 2nd Corinthians 1.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is Covid he's talking about.

[John Piper]

This is the message of the coronavirus. Stop relying on yourselves and turn to God.

[Tim Whitaker]

There you go, friends that's the message of the coronavirus. Now again, John believes that everything is. Every single action that happens in the world was ordained by God. So the coronavirus was predestined and ordained by God to happen. The question is why? In John's theology. So this is his answer. Because we're relying too much on ourselves and not enough on God.

[April Ajoy]

That's how woke up God sent coronavirus in order to get us to rely on him.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Now this is this clip that we're going to get into. And by the way, please make sure you give this video a.

[April Ajoy]

Like someone who's not a Calvinist. I am familiar with this clip.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, we'll play this along. Maybe April. We'll pause if we need to. So this is a couple years ago. This is over a decade ago. And he does this series Ask Pastor John. People offer questions, he gives responses. Here we go. Here's a question he got.

[John Piper]

What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser? Oh, my. Part of that answer is clearly going to depend on what kind of abuse we're dealing with here, how serious this is. Is her life in danger?

[Tim Whitaker]

We're running off to a bad start. I just want to say that out loud. The answer is you leave. You know, like you leave, you get help entertaining what kind of abuse. We're already in the deep end, but we're just getting started.

[John Piper]

Yeah, this verbal unkindness. I'm not sure what the person who asked the question had in mind. So let me just talk about maybe different kinds. A woman's submission to her husband is rooted in the word of God calling her to be. For the Lord's sake.

[Tom]

Sake.

[John Piper]

For the Lord's sake. Submissive to him. Which means she always has a higher allegiance, namely to Christ. And therefore Christ's word governs her life. And Christ has many words besides be submissive. Be submissive is not an absolute because her Lord has other things to tell her. So that if the husband tells her something that contradicts what the Lord tells her, then she's got a crisis there of to whom do I submit now? And clearly she submits to Jesus, above the Lord. I mean, above her husband.

[Tim Whitaker]

What? I'm confused. Are you confused? Like, how does this work? I'm just trying to think about, like John's point here.

[April Ajoy]

I guess he's trying to say if a husband tells his wife to do something that he would deem sinful, that the wife then is in crisis on whether or not she obeys the Bible by obeying her husband.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Or disobeys her husband to not do the sin. It's like the. The mental gymnastics here. I don't know. Are you familiar with Laurie Alexander?

[John Piper]

No.

[April Ajoy]

He's a transformed wife.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yes, I am familiar with her. The account that's so bad you wonder if it's satire. But it's not that account.

[John Piper]

Right.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

She has posted me before as like. As a warning of like, don't become Jezebel's. Like my picture.

[Tim Whitaker]

End up watching Game of Thrones.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. I mean, fair. But in 2021, I think it was when the COVID vaccine had come out, someone had asked her if, honestly, maybe. Maybe we should just keep watching this and I'll actually find the video to play because it's hilarious. We'll come back to it.

[John Piper]

And the reason she's submitting to her husband is because of her prior superior, submission to the Lord. So if this man, for example, is calling her to engage in abusive acts, willingly, group sex or something really weird, bizarre, harmful, that clearly would be sin.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's the example, I think so.

[John Piper]

I really think this is possible. Possible. It's kind of paradoxical. She's not going to go there. I'm just saying. No, she's not going to do what Jesus would disapprove, even though the husband is asking her to do it. She's going to say, however, something like, honey, I want so much to follow you as my leader. God calls me to do that, and I would love to do that. It would be. Be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sorry, I got to pause. It's so weird that he uses that example of group sex and then gives this example of how to approach your husband if he wants you to do that. It'd be so sweet to follow your leadership.

[April Ajoy]

The video I just texted you of Lori, she does something very similar. Like the way that their minds automatically go to. To sexual things should be studied because I don't know why that's where you would go on a question about abuse.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you want me to share this video, this clip now?

[April Ajoy]

Sure, why not? I've teased it already.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah, you have.

[April Ajoy]

It just. It just reminded me of this because I. So if you. So Lori, she's. She has a transformed wife. She is huge about female submission. She doesn't believe girls should go to college. She doesn't believe women should have careers, they should stay home. And so she gets a lot of questions, similar to John Piper from Women on, you know, certain aspects of their marriage. So she was asked by a woman whether, like, I guess, her husband wanted her to get the coronavirus vaccine. And if you remember, the COVID vaccine, there were so many conspiracies around it, and they were saying, this is like the mark of the beast. This is government population control. It's going to kill you in 12 to 18 months. Like, there were a lot of people in this conservative Christian world that were very anti COVID vaccine. So she gets this question, and this

[Tim Whitaker]

is her response, all right, the dumbest question on the face of the planet, but here we go.

[Lori (Transformed Wife)]

And she feels all the things I mentioned previously that it would be sinful for her to take it because she believes that they're completely wrong and harmful. This is my only. My own opinion about that. I would say, no, she wouldn't need to take it. And the reason I say that is because I tell women that they do not have to have anal sex with their husbands because that's harmful. They don't need to submit to fear, things that are harmful to them. If a husband.

[Tim Whitaker]

What that.

[April Ajoy]

Why do their minds go there?

[Tim Whitaker]

Why?

[April Ajoy]

She said a wife does not have to take the COVID vaccine because she would tell her she doesn't have to do anal sex. How, How. Why do they make these connections? I did make the joke that I think is one of my better jokes that I've ever made.

[Tim Whitaker]

Go ahead.

[April Ajoy]

That, that, that. That's two jabs that Lori won't take. Sorry, It's a. It's. I'm not serious today. It's fine.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, I'm going to leave. Yeah, I'm going to leave it there. I'll leave people to fill in blanks on their own. Okay, back to John Piper talking about, what's a woman to do? She's being abused. It depends on the. On the kind of abuse. And if your husband wants you to participate in group sex, you should approach him by saying, I so want to follow your leadership into this, but I can't. That's where we left off. Here we go against. You don't even know what's coming. I'm just. We're setting you guys up for the bomb drop.

[John Piper]

And so then she would say, but if you ask me to do this, require this of me, then I can't. I can't go there. Now, that's one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it's not requiring her to sin, but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures Perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church. I mean, every time I deal with somebody in this, I find the ultimate solution under God in the church.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my. This is who Sean Foyt calls woke.

[April Ajoy]

Friends, endure the abuse for a season. You know what?

[Tim Whitaker]

Maybe a smack or two.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I mean, listen, John is kind of enduring some smacks right now on Twitter. And to you, John, I say, just endure the abuse. Just endure it.

[Tim Whitaker]

And then he. Then he does the classic pivot, then go to the church. As if, especially his kind of church, is going to be supportive of a woman enduring that kind of abuse. And we know this because his BFF, John MacArthur, back in the day. We have examples of what happens when women who are being abused go to the church. They're taught to suffer for Christ. They're taught that. Go back to your husband. And then when you leave your husband, as is, as is the case with Eileen Gray, you're then publicly shamed for at the front of the church by the lead pastor. That's a true story. John MacArthur publicly shamed Eileen Gray when she left her husband over abuse. Turns out he was also saing their children. He's now serving prison time for that. So going to the church is like. It's like the fox in the henhouse. I mean, just feed the chickens to the fox directly. That is not the place to go to if you're being abused. But Sean anyway thinks that Piper is woke up.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, Joel Webbin, he also, quote, tweeted John Piper and called him a leftist.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, I gotta go find that Joel

[April Ajoy]

Webbin, who was just on a show with Nick Fuentes saying that, yeah, a piistic Joel Webman is pretty openly sexist and racist. Like, has said terribly racist and sexist

[Tim Whitaker]

things and anti Semitic. He's the whole nine. That's so funny. He's always been a leftist. And then. Okay, and then here's Sean Foy again then, fighting fire with fire by quoting his own Bible verse. Your country is desolate. Your city's burned with fire. Your fields are being stripped by foreigners. Right before you laid waste, as when overthrown by strangers. Isaiah 1 through 7 or 1:7. Christians have been warned about the miserable, miserable bondage that comes with illegal immigration. Notice. Okay, this is a great example, friends, of how this works. Notice how John's verse is subordinate to Sean's verse. That feeds, at least out of context anyway, that feeds his narrative of today with his view of illegal immigration. Right. Do you think that Justin Peters is gonna. Where is he? Where's Justin Peters is gonna then, is then gonna re quote, you know, Sean Foy and take him a task for using Isaiah 1, verse 7 out of context? No, of course not. Of course not. Do you think that Dale, Dale Partridge will do that when he said to correlate these instructions to Israel with the circumstances facing America is simply irresponsible theology? No.

[April Ajoy]

Right. When they do it all the time to support their politics all the freaking time.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is how it works. This is why so many of us are so out of this space. Because it's so obvious what they're doing. It's like Sean just made the point for us. He just made the point. He takes Isaiah chapter 1, verse 7 and then uses it as a rebuttal to John Piper's verse in Leviticus to prove that modern undocumented immigration is destroying the country. When we had the data that shows undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in the tax system. They actually help societies and they are half as likely as as their native born counterpart to commit crimes.

[April Ajoy]

I know. Not to mention all of the like terror that ice is raining down on American neighborhoods and they've killed now two American citizens that were caught on video that we watched.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And they are more outraged by John Piper posting a Bible verse than they are about the actual violence that the Trump administration is causing.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Ajoy]

To not just immigrants, but American citizens.

[Tim Whitaker]

100% little five year old Liam Detention Center. The six month old who was deported back to Mexico with her family with no money to their name. Right. Those people are. It's fine, it's great. But John Piper just cites the Bible with no commentary on political issues, suddenly John Piper is a woke leftist

[April Ajoy]

which they tell on themselves big time. If you can read a scripture and you immediately think this is woke and leftist and the person po like sharing it is leftist and has political motivations that is just pure projection based on the way you use scripture and your political motivations. Like the fact like they. That that to me is them just admitting openly that they don't follow the Bible, that they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. They follow very cherry picked verses that they. It's fine for them to post scriptures out of context and use it as literal and fact based to support their conservative MAGA agenda.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

But as soon as someone posts something that sounds a little bit woke and news flash, the teachings of Jesus are pretty left. They are progressive. They were progressive for its time, they're progressive today. And it's why the religious leaders of the time hated Jesus, like maybe if, if scripture triggers you that much, maybe you're doing it wrong. Maybe your faith is not actually about following Jesus, but it's about making a certain political ideology your idol, which the Bible also speaks about. And you don't see them, they. You see them talking about idols. When it comes to secular music, Taylor Swift, like things that people just find enjoyment out of, and they've never once thought that maybe their allegiance to a serial adulterer named Donald Trump, that that's an idol is just mind boggling to me.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, Alex Stuckey had the audacity to tell parents not to let their kids listen to Taylor Swift as she simps for an adjudicated rapist. A man who, who paints vivid, grotesque images of blood running down the aisles, talking about people who have died while their families are in the room. That's the dude that we should follow. But Taylor Swift is ruining America. She's ruining her kids. I think, April, maybe we should just end on a few teachings of Jesus. I mean, I have a couple verses here and we could just do an A and B. Okay, let's. Yeah, let me just read a few and then we can wrap up here.

[Tom]

The.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is from the teachings of Jesus. Matthew 5. Okay, here's what it says. Jesus is teaching the crowds. He says, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness. Righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Man, I don't know, it sounds kind of woken liberal Meek.

[April Ajoy]

Yikes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yikes. Merciful.

[April Ajoy]

I think you've got a political agenda.

[Tim Whitaker]

It sounds that way. It sounds that way. So anyway, friends, well listen, thanks so much for tuning in as always. Please make sure to leave a like or like this video and leave a comment. We. We read all the comments. It helps us out so much. And we will see you live on Thursday, 12 o' clock Eastern.

[April Ajoy]

That we will.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[LifeLock Announcer]

See you.

[April Ajoy]

Stay safe out there.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, watch out for John Piper and his voc.

[April Ajoy]

Don't get triggered by random Bible verse.

[Tom]

Sa.