95. MAGA Christians are losing it over CNN’s Christian Nationalism documentary

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: The Tim & April Show, by The New Evangelicals
Episode: 95. "MAGA Christians are losing it over CNN’s Christian Nationalism documentary"
Date: March 17, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

This episode responds to conservative commentator Ali Stuckey’s reaction to CNN’s upcoming documentary on Christian nationalism. Tim and April break down Ali’s arguments, analyze the definition and impact of Christian nationalism, discuss the right’s backlash to the documentary, and unpack broader issues including the myth of America as a Christian nation and the dynamics of gender roles in conservative Christianity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Responding to Ali Stuckey’s Critiques (00:40–05:11)

• Ali’s Claim: "People somehow, inexplicably, would call me a Christian nationalist for literally no reason at all. But that is because people haven't actually tried to define it." (01:50, Ali Stuckey)
• Hosts' Rebuttal: Multiple books and articles exist defining Christian nationalism. April herself wrote a book on it; Tim references Andrew Whitehead’s academic work.
  • Quote: "In short, white Christian nationalism is a cultural framework asserting that civic life in the United States should be organized according to a particular form of conservative Christianity." (03:55, Tim quoting Whitehead)
• Ali’s Contradiction: She claims there's no definition, then proceeds to use CNN’s definition almost verbatim.
  • Quote: "Did I not just say that? Did Ali not answer her own critique from 30 seconds ago that... there's no definition. You just gave a definition, Ali." (06:51, Tim)

2. The Myth of America’s “Christian Nation” Founding (06:27–10:18)

• Ali’s Assertion: America has a Christian foundation, and believing otherwise is biased.
• Tim & April’s Rebuttal: Founders did not establish a Christian nation and included clear separation of church and state. The First Amendment, lack of religious tests for office, and varied beliefs of the founders (many were deists, not evangelicals) are cited as evidence.
  • Quote: "If the founders wanted a Christian nation, they would have made our Constitution incredibly Christian. It would have been incredibly clear about Jesus and the Bible and God, but they didn't." (08:00, Tim)

3. Neutrality and the False Dichotomy of Worldviews (10:36–12:55)

• Ali’s Argument: There’s no such thing as neutrality; a nation will be either Christian, Islamic, or secular progressive.
  • Quote: "I would be hard pressed to understand how a Christian could argue against that. I mean, there's no such thing as neutrality." (10:36, Ali)
• Hosts’ Response: Societies strive for neutrality and protection of rights regardless of belief. Ali projects an “all-or-nothing” mentality onto secularism and Islam; Tim and April prefer a secular society because it protects everyone’s rights, including Christians'.
  • Quote: "In a progressive secular world, they would have every right to still have their exact beliefs, to still worship exactly how they want to." (12:55, April)

4. “Legislating Morality” and Consistency (14:44–17:19)

• Ali’s Position: Every law legislates morality; Christian worldview should naturally inform law.
• Hosts' Critique: Christian nationalists are selective about where morality should be legislated (abortion, gender, etc.), but downplay it with guns, poverty, or racism.
  • Quote: "People say you can't legislate morality... They will say that when it comes to abortion... but when it comes to guns... We can't legislate that morality because sin will always be with us." (16:23, April)

5. “Persecution” & Freedom of Belief (17:21–19:33)

• Ali’s Claim: Christian conservatives are uniquely told not to bring their beliefs into public life.
• Hosts’ Response: Christians are not persecuted; the line is drawn when beliefs remove others’ rights.
  • Quote: "Your right to swing your fist stops where someone else's face begins." (17:38, Tim)
  • Quote: "No one's taking away their right to worship... it's literally like, hey, you need to stop being bullies to these groups of people." (19:13, April)

6. The Charlie Kirk Memorial and “True Christianity” (23:30–30:33)

• Ali’s Skepticism: Being called a Christian nationalist is a scare tactic; claims Charlie Kirk was a “moderate.”
• Hosts’ Pushback: Kirk’s own words and policies conflict with the idea of moderation; denying Christian nationalism is common among those actively spreading it.
  • Quote: "Charlie Kirk, the guy who wants the Civil Rights act repealed, a moderate..." (29:05, Tim)
  • Quote: "Their idea of leftists is literally just people who didn't vote for Trump." (30:21, April)

7. Gender Roles, Marriage, and Submission (31:47–47:50)

• Ali’s Position: Wives who submit to husbands are happier; submission is not about control but loving leadership.
• Hosts’ Experience: Both Tim and April reject hierarchical marriage; see it as unnecessary and dehumanizing. Point out the contradiction of Ali making a living while espousing homemaker roles for others.
  • Quote: "Trust me, bro, Ali is most likely the breadwinner in their house… She can thank feminism for that ability…" (32:38, Tim)
  • Quote: "The most outspoken women that are talking about submission don't actually submit to their husbands." (40:12, April)
• Abuse & Cover for Harm: Submission theology provides cover for abusers and has tangible negative impacts on women.
  • Quote: "It gives a lot of cover for abuse." (38:50, April)

8. What About Abuse in Conservative Spaces? (47:59–53:40)

• Ali’s Deflection: Abuse isn't caused by Ephesians 5 but by sin; pivots to critique of “foreign” practices (e.g., FGM).
• Hosts’ Rebuttal: Abuse and hierarchy are tied to these theologies; systemic abuse and lack of autonomy are frequent in conservative Christian communities.
  • Quote: "It's the interpretation of this passage that is causing the damage here." (48:21, Tim)
  • Quote: "Doug Wilson marries off predators. Doug Wilson's tribe has survivor stories…" (51:25, Tim)
  • Quote: "It's the way Ali says only… marriages that have this viewpoint are happy… that's not true." (53:26, April)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Definitions: “I got three books right here. Here's just three that talk about Christian nationalism. April, you wrote a book on it.” (02:05, Tim)
• On the Founding: "If the founders wanted a Christian nation... they didn't." (08:00, Tim)
• On Rights in Secular Society: “In a progressive secular world, they would have every right to still have their exact beliefs, to still worship exactly how they want…” (12:55, April)
• On Morality: “People say you can't legislate morality… but on the culture war issues, we can absolutely, absolutely legislate morality.” (16:53, Tim)
• On “True Christianity” Branding: "She has positioned her politics and her Christian nationalism as, quote unquote, true Christianity." (27:43, April)
• On Marriage Equality: "There's no power struggle… We. Let's do what works best for each of us." (36:24, April)
• On Submission Deflection: "Ali won't tell you the countless amounts of women who have suffered real abuse in these spaces under this BS theology." (34:54, Tim)
• On Doubling Down: "She told on herself; female submission can lead to abuse… which is why people like us speak against it." (52:56, April)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:50 - Ali Stuckey’s initial claim: Christian nationalism isn’t defined.
• 02:37 - April’s concise definition of Christian nationalism.
• 03:55 - Tim referencing academic work on Christian nationalism.
• 06:27 - Discussion on Doug Wilson and abuse allegations.
• 08:00 - Constitutional arguments against “Christian nation” myth.
• 10:36 - Ali’s argument against neutrality in government.
• 12:55 - April on rights in a secular society.
• 14:44 - “Legislating morality” inconsistencies.
• 17:38 - Tim on boundary of belief and others’ rights.
• 23:30–24:44 - Memorial service for Charlie Kirk and “true Christianity.”
• 27:43 - April on the “true Christianity” moniker.
• 29:05 - Tim on Charlie Kirk’s “moderation.”
• 31:47–33:23 - Gender roles and the “tradwife” segment.
• 36:24–41:49 - Egalitarian marriages; hosts’ personal examples.
• 47:59 - Ali attributing marital abuse to sin, not theology.
• 51:25 - Tim on evangelical abuse cover-ups.

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Conclusion

Tim and April refute common Christian nationalist talking points, using research, personal experience, and historical context to dissect arguments made by Ali Stuckey and others on the religious right. They challenge misrepresentations about the founding of America, the nature of neutrality, and what submission in marriage actually produces. The episode delivers a strong call for justice-oriented, inclusive Christianity and draws clear lines between healthy expressions of faith and the exclusionary, sometimes harmful, ideologies taking root in Christian nationalist circles.

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For further resources, visit The New Evangelicals community and podcast network.

Transcript

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Tim and April Show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

Then I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

And today we are covering those. You'll never guess, how do you say it? Whose name we shall not name or whose name shall not be named?

[April Ajoy]

She who should not be named.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you.

[April Ajoy]

Who shall not be named.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah. I don't watch enough Harry Potter if people can't tell by now. But we are talking about someone that I yap about, probably too much. Today we're covering the one and only Ali Stuckey because she continues to say unhinged things. So we have to cover it. I'm not asking for her to talk like this. We have no choice in the matter.

[April Ajoy]

We have to.

[Tim Whitaker]

We have to. Because she did a seven minute little excerpt from a longer episode about how CNN's upcoming documentary on Christian nationalism is embarrassing and unhinged. Which, by the way, this has been like a mantra of the right wing media blogosphere for a minute now, where a bunch of different people like Isabel Brown and others have come out saying, oh, CNN hates Christians. They're doing a documentary on how much Christianity is terrible and how evil it is, which of course is not the truth. They're doing a documentary on Christian nationalism. So I thought today, April, we could respond to the next smear campaign from Ali.

[April Ajoy]

Yes, I think we should do that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, roll the tape. Roll the tape. Make sure to, like this video. Subscribe to the channel. Let's get into it piece by piece. You know the drill. We'll pause throughout. Here we go.

[Ali Stuckey]

People somehow, inexplicably would call me a Christian nationalist for literally no reason at all. But that is because people haven't actually tried to define it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. Okay. Oh, my.

[April Ajoy]

For no reason at all.

[Tim Whitaker]

And people have not tried to define it. Lady, I got three books right here. Here's just three that talk about Christian nationalism. April, you wrote a book on it.

[April Ajoy]

April, let me ask you a question here. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Did you try to define Christian nationalism in your book?

[April Ajoy]

I did.

[Tim Whitaker]

You did.

[Melinda Hale]

But.

[Tim Whitaker]

But Ali, the truth teller has said no one has tried to define it. So I guess you're the liar here. I guess your book is a fraud.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Who knows? Yeah. You can't define it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Go ahead, April. How do you define Christian nationalism?

[April Ajoy]

Well, depending on who you ask, there are different definitions because not every Christian nationalist is the same. But generally speaking, it is a belief that America is a Christian nation. It needs to stay a Christian nation in order to keep God's blessing on our country. And it is a conflation of your theology with your political beliefs where, you know the phrase only true Christians vote Republican or, you know, whatever. Like, it's. It's. It's a. It's an elevation of one ideology, which in this case is usually evangelicalism, to the detriment of other ideologies, meaning no one else comes to the table. It is our way or the highway. We are the sole proprietors of truth.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And no one else has access to the truth that we have or that they believe they have. But there are other, like. There are a lot of other definitions that basically kind of say the same thing.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I'm thinking. Is it here. I mean, in Andrew Seidel. Not Andrew Seidel. In Andrew Whitehead's book, he says pretty much the same thing in his own, you know, academic term. But that. That's the idea. That is the idea 100%. I mean, I don't know. It's the idea that America's a Christian nation and should stay that way. But of course, the term Christian nation is defined by conservative Christian values. So everything that. Oh, here it is. Here it is. This is Andrew Whitehead here. In short, white Christian nationalism is a cultural framework asserting that civic life in the United States should be organized according to a particular form of conservative Christianity.

[April Ajoy]

Yup.

[Tim Whitaker]

Defined Ally. I wonder why people would call her a Christian nationalist given, I don't know, everything that she stands for and her claims about America being a Christian country.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, you want to roll that clip real quick?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Just to just say why people call Ally a Christian nationalist when she said, they call me a Christian nationalist for no reason at all. Okay, Ally, maybe it's because you say stuff like in this clip.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go.

[Ali Stuckey]

America is a Christian nation.

[Tim Whitaker]

H H. Interesting.

[Ali Stuckey]

America.

[Tim Whitaker]

Why would I be a Christian nationalist? Why. Why would they? Why? For some. For. For some. Some reason I can't fathom people call me a Christian nationalist. Okay, we're all. We're 11 seconds in, and we're like. We're just in the land of make believe already. But go ahead, Ally, continue.

[Ali Stuckey]

But of course, they're warning against it. So they've got a documentary that is called the Rise of Christian Nationalism, and it's apparently going to air in just a couple weeks. The CNN anchor behind the project, her name is Pamela Brown, she interviewed Douglas Wilson. Doug Wilson is an Idaho pastor in Moscow, Idaho. He identifies as a Christian nationalist and she said, quote, the response to that report was overwhelming and highlighted the need to better understand this movement working to redefine America as a Christian nation. So you can already kind of see the bias in their language there.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, pause. I. So far, Ali has not said anything about Doug Wilson. She hasn't mentioned his takes on slavery. She hasn't mentioned that he married off a known pedophile to a woman in his church and then he reoffended with the infant. She hasn't mentioned the obvious, that Doug Wilson is very, very outspoken against repealing the 19th amendment. So people like Alice Sucky can't vote. Suddenly, that's just ignored because Pamela Brown's probably a biased journalist.

[Ali Stuckey]

Wow.

[April Ajoy]

And if you wanted to learn more about Doug Wilson, our last week's episode last Tuesday, we did a deep dive, so you can go back and read all why he's problematic.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, all right, let's keep it going. Gosh.

[Ali Stuckey]

As if America doesn't have a Christian foundation, which of course it does. But she goes on to say, in the home, in a marriage, in schools, and in government. This journalist, Brown, defines Christian nationalism as an ideology rooted in the belief that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and that its laws and institutions should reflect Christian values.

[Tim Whitaker]

Did I not just say that? Did Ali not answer her own critique from 30 seconds ago that. That there's no definition. You just gave a definition. Ali. Sorry, I'm running for.

[April Ajoy]

I just can't believe it. You're fine. I do want to say she mentioned in her other video, I. I don't know if we played it, but she goes on to talk about. She claims there's proof that America was founded as a Christian nation. But the founding myth by Andrew Seidel, like, perfectly debunks that. If you want just a deep dive on. Yes, like, factually, I feel like, honestly, the whole America was founded as a Christian nation. You can find quotes from the Founding Fathers that do seem to say things along the lines that America is Christian. Like, they say very Christianese things, but there's also a lot of quotes from Founding Fathers that would say America is intended to be a separation of church and state and a secular society, and that there is no one religion. We have freedom for religion from religion, but not enforcing religion. And the fact that in the Constitution, you have a clear separation of church and state clause in there.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I mean, look, I don't want to boil it down and oversimplify it, but if the founders wanted a Christian nation, they would have made our Constitution incredibly Christian. It would have been incredibly clear about Jesus and the Bible and God, but they didn't. In fact, there's an amendment in there that says no religious test shall be given in order to hold office. It's explicitly the opposite of a Christian nation. So again, people can, people can have Christian beliefs and still create things that are not exclusively Christian. Right. You and I do this show, we talk about Christian nationalism. Right. I make music sometimes as a Christian, but my music isn't inherently always Christian. Same thing with a country. You can, you can be part of the founding committee of a country as a Christian and not want a Christian country. That is possible.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And in the very, in the First Amendment, you know, like the, the actual word separation of church and state do not, don't appear in the US Constitution. But like you said, no religious test. And then in the First Amendment, it says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. And if their intention was for America to be a Christian nation, that amendment would not be in there.

[Tim Whitaker]

And last thing that we need to point out, let's just say that, that Ali was right. Let's say most of the founders were Christians, which many of them were not. George Washington wasn't, you know, Thomas Jefferson, et cetera. Even if they were to think that the type of Christianity that they believe is what Ali believes is hilarious because modern evangelical fundamentalism in its current form didn't exist yet. It wasn't a thing. The version of Christianity that, that, that, that, that, that they would have believed in would have been radically different on many different levels compared to what Ali Stuckey believes. So just kind of point that out too. All right.

[April Ajoy]

I do think, just to push back slightly, I think George Washington was Anglican, so I do think, well, he was Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

I must have missed that. I'm sorry, I heard that he was.

[April Ajoy]

But I will say, like, there were plenty that were like deist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[April Ajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

He was Anglican. You're right.

[April Ajoy]

But they did still claim like, and that, and that's the thing, like, oh, every single US President has claimed some form of Christianity in our nation just because that's been, I guess, the socially acceptable religion in America.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

You know, especially coming from England where you have the monarchy and you have the Church of England. But we were trying to fight away from that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Thank you for the correction. That. That was my bad. I'm not sure where I heard that, so thank you.

[April Ajoy]

No, you're fine.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hashtag accountability.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, again, like, I, I would be hard pressed to understand how a Christian could argue against that. I mean, there's no such thing as neutrality. So it's either going to be Christianity, Islam, secular progressivism.

[Tim Whitaker]

That isn't true. No, that isn't true at all. Is a referee not neutral in a basketball game? Now, of course, every referee could be biased to a degree, but the job of them is to be as neutral as possible. Right. We can certainly aim for a government that allows people to worship freely, whatever that belief system is, and that it remains as neutral as possible. Of course humans are going to contaminate systems. No systems can be perfect with human intervention. I get all that, but the idea that you only have three options, Ali's version of Christianity, Islam or secular progressivism is ridiculous.

[April Ajoy]

Also, she just told on herself because what she just did there is projection. That's what the kids call projection. Because she's thinking that progressive secularism, what. Whatever that is. Because, like, there's no progressive Christians like us. But she says that that or Islam or Christianity. That what? That those groups would. Would basically be all or nothing. If it's not Christianity, we're going to be 100% Muslim. We're going to be 100% sec. Secular. Like that shows right there the way that they think, the way that they believe. Oh, well, if we don't take over the government, then Islam will.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Like there's the. There's no self awareness. It's a very black and white way of thinking. It's all or nothing. It's good or evil. And that alley is Christian nationalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And if I had, if that was. If those were the options, I would take progressive secularism in a heartbeat. Because you know why? We'd have affordable health care. We wouldn't be kidnapping our immigrant neighbors and throwing them into detention centers. We wouldn't be killing people in the streets. We wouldn't have a president who assaults women and is all over the Epstein files. You wouldn't have a world where people like Ali Stuckey are voting for policies that kill other people and celebrate when our country snipes people out of the water, you know, in international waters. Right. So I will take progressive secularism over Ali's Christianity and any day of the week.

[April Ajoy]

And what Ali and people in this camp fail to either understand or they're just lying about, is that in a progressive secular world, they would have every right to still have their exact beliefs, to still worship exactly how they want to.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

So they just. Unlike in her ideal Christianity, where they are actively taking rights away from immigrants, whether they're birthright citizens or people that are trying to go through the system correctly. Because as we've pointed out many times, there are plenty, so many people that have been arrested and detained and deported by ICE that were doing things legally the right way, or they're taking. The way they're taking rights away from trans people, the way they're taking rights away from women, the way they're taking rights away from, gosh, so many different groups. Like, if you just look at the

[Tim Whitaker]

way they're erasing black history.

[April Ajoy]

Yes. Like, yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

It wasn't secular progressivism that stormed the Capitol on January 6th. It wasn't secular progressivism that erased the driver's licenses of thousands of trans folks in Kansas overnight. So, yes, Ali, if those are the three options, I'm gonna pick progressive secular secularism for the win.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay?

[Ali Stuckey]

Now, I do think that we should have religious liberty. I don't think we should force people to worship a certain way, to pray a certain way, or to be Christian. But if a worldview always has to inform law, because it does, every law speaks to a moral truth. People say, you can't legislate morality. Of course you do. Every piece of legislation is a form of morality. And our worldview is going to be reflected like Jesus is king can't be compartmentalized. Just like the Muslim doesn't believe that their belief should be compartmentalized, certainly the secular progressive doesn't believe that their belief about gender or abortion should be compartmentalized.

[Tim Whitaker]

These are. These are false beliefs, dichotomies. Because the belief that Christ is king is an exclusive Christian belief. Believing that trans people deserve universal rights is not an exclusively. Like. It's not an exclusive belief. Like, like me and Kasum. Rashid Kasum is Muslim, I'm a Christian, and Andrew Seidel, who's an atheist. Right. The three of us can come together and find the value that our trans neighbors deserve the right to dignity in this country. Right?

[April Ajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Me saying Christ is king excludes the other two.

[April Ajoy]

Right. I want to point out two contradictions that she just made.

[Ali Stuckey]

Go ahead.

[April Ajoy]

One, she said that now I don't believe we should force our beliefs on other. And she still believes in religious freedom. She says that. But then she does want to force trans people back into closets. She wants to based on her belief, that is forcing your beliefs on other people. Because actually, if you look at science and facts, like gender dysphoria is a scientific, like, real thing that happens for trans people. And it's. It's. So anyway, so one, she like and this is, this is the sneaky part about Christian nationalists is they will say, we don't want to force our beliefs. Like, we're not going to force you to be Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

We.

[April Ajoy]

We're just going to legislate our beliefs so that you can technically not believe like us. But you have to obey.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. You're going to be forced to still follow us.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, right. It's. It's a fine. It's a distinction that is slippery.

[Tim Whitaker]

Distinction without a difference. Right, right.

[April Ajoy]

Like, the second thing, the second thing is she said we legislate morality all the time. People say you can't legislate morality, but you can legislate morality. They will say that when it comes to abortion, when it comes to trans people, but when it comes to guns.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Guns don't kill people. It's a sin problem. There's nothing we can do about all the school shootings and the mass shootings. We can't legislate that morality because sin will always be with us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. The poor will always be with us. We can't legislate child hunger. We can't legislate fair taxes on the billionaire class that is killing the middle and lower class. No, no, no. That, that's a church issue. But on the culture war issues, we can absolutely, absolutely legislate morality. Yeah. 100%.

[April Ajoy]

Right. And they'll say the same thing when it comes to racism, too. There's nothing they can do about systemic racism because it's a heart issue. People just need Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Great. Well said.

[Ali Stuckey]

They're bringing the fullness of their belief system into the voting booth, into their PTA meetings, into the city council, into their classrooms, into every public sphere that they occupy. And Christian conservatives and Christian conservatives alone are told you can't do that.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's not true. What, what we're telling you is that your right to swing your fist stops where someone else's face begins. In America, Ali Stuckey is allowed to believe whatever she wants. She can believe horrible things about other people groups. She can believe that immigrants are evil, that trans people shouldn't exist. She can believe that and, and not be arrested. What you can't do is then tell a trans person, because of my belief, you now are not able to drive in Kansas. You are not. You are now not able to get access to gender affirming care, which we know scientifically will reduce your risk of, of. Of. Of unaliving ideation. Right. That's the difference that Ali can't. Because in Ali's worldview, as we know, Ali Ali. Whoa. I'm so sorry, April.

[Matthew Taylor]

As former.

[Tim Whitaker]

Forgive me. I. I repent. I repent. As former Christian nationalists, what they. What the. The way the worldview works is, your belief is that everyone else must submit to your beliefs. That's the core belief here, Right? The belief isn't that I have a conviction that I'm not going to throw onto you. The belief is I have a conviction that you must adhere to. That's why. And by the way, that conviction that you must adhere to usually has to do with taking away someone else's rights in the name of my horrific biblical interpretation. Right? So that's what we're talking about here. And that's why Ali and people like her get so much flack, because they're constantly fighting against the rights of other people who they've deemed less than human in their mind because of how they read the Bible.

[Melinda Hale]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

No one's taking away their right to worship. No one's taking away. No one, like their ability to believe what they want. As you said, it's literally like, hey, you need to stop being bullies to these groups of people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Ajoy]

And they take that as like, our rights are being taken away. Like, that alone is just them telling on themselves.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. 100%.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day, we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors together. I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[Leanne]

Hi, my name is Leanne. I live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm 65 years old and both my husband and I grew up in a fairly conservative evangelical church. But about 20 years ago we began to question some of the teachings in that church and we embarked on our own process of deconstruction and reconstruction, although it didn't have a name at the time, and we have recently started attending a wonderful church that is fully affirming and fully inclusive of our LGBTQ siblings in Christ. And we absolutely love it. It's the best faith experience of our lives and I so appreciate Tim and the New Evangelicals team. I so appreciate the online resource and I have become a donor because I believe so strongly in the really important work they're doing and I would encourage anyone listening to consider doing the same. Thank you.

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Ali Stuckey]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]. Well, this journalist pointed to the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service is a time of, quote, unprecedented alignment between Christian nationalists and the Trump administration.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's true.

[Ali Stuckey]

Here she is saying that sorry, Charlie

[Documentary Narrator]

Kirk, a conservative activist and prominent Christian nationalist, was assassinated. It became a rallying call for those who believed in his message.

[Tim Whitaker]

It did.

[Matthew Taylor]

Memorial service was one of the most potent examples of this shift in our culture that we're experiencing right now Where a large segment of American Christians are being activated by these ideas, radicalized by these ideas that say that they are the persecuted ones and that they need to stand up for Christians rights.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay, so Glenn Beck on there. I was also there at that memorial. It was an incredible day. I don't think Charlie called himself a Christian nationalist. Maybe I could be wrong by that. But people who threw out this moniker, it really is a scare tactic. It's to say Ali Stuckey or Charlie Kirk. They're. They're not just Christians, they're a radical form of Christian. Actually. That's right. Should not be supportive of it. If you listen to them, you're extreme too. This whole idea to say that true Christianity is only true genuine Jesus, like Christianity if it's private and you vote progressive is so dumb.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so, so dumb. How do we.

[April Ajoy]

What a comeback.

[Tim Whitaker]

Alley, I'm trying to be polite here. First off that the person on that screen who was talking, his name is Matthew Taylor. He's a friend of the show, a good personal friend. He wrote a great book, the Violent Ticket by Force. He knows his stuff. This man is a deeply well respected scholar who tracks this stuff and is very nuanced about it. So I recommend reading his book. Before you take Ally here at her word the idea, I find it so funny that she even just said Jesus like Christianity. And my question to her is, have you read the Red. Have you read the words of Jesus, Alley? Like have you read the words of Jesus? Have you read any of them? Because what Allie will say is she'll go, of course I have. But a lot of his commands are for the church, not for the government. And then she'll move from the words of Jesus to Romans 13, the apostle Paul or somewhere in the Hebrew Bible to justify how the government should act. But even then that's a very selective interpretation of what she is doing with the Bible. Right, Right. And frankly, anyone who knows even a drop of Christian history will tell you that the fundamentalist expression that Ali's a part of is extreme. It comes out of radical fundamentalism in the early 20th century. There's a whole movement about this and it is anti intellectual for a reason. There's a reason why it's not in scholarship.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, and I want to point out too, she said, I don't believe Charlie ever called himself a Christian nationalist. I did not call myself a Christian nationalist when I was 100% a Christian nationalist because I do think that is a tricky. That is one of the harder reasons that makes it difficult to stop Christian nationalism is to call it out and is because you have people like Charlie Kirk before he died, like Ali Beth Stuckey, who claim that even though what they are perpetuating is Christian nationalism, they wrap it in a true Christianity package. Which is why it's so funny to me that she just accused progressives of using the true Christianity moniker when literally that is Ali's entire platform. She has positioned her politics and her Christian nationalism as quote, unquote, true Christianity. Now, there are different sects of Christian nationalism. There are people that would openly call themselves Christian nationalists, like Doug Wilson, and typically they are a little more, they are a little more extreme because one, they call to repeal the 19th amendment, they call for heretics to be imprisoned, like in Stephen Wolf atheists book and atheists. Right. So there is a more extreme version that is overtly Christian nationalist. The alleys of the world, though, in some ways I think are more dangerous because these are the people that are in everyday white evangelical churches that are pushing Christian nationalists but wrapping it in quote, unquote, biblical truth.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And so that's what gets the masses, why white evangelicals are still have the largest percentage of their group that still supports Donald Trump after every single atrocity. It's how you get that because people are supporting Trump in the name of what they think is Christianity. They believe God wants them to support Trump, but really what they're doing is perpetuating Christian nationalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right, 100%. And also all of their issues are all based on other people groups that don't affect their lives at all. They're all worried about trans people, they're worried about immigrants and abortion, things that, that, that, that do not affect, things that, that do not require change in their own life. They're never going to talk about greed, they're not going to talk about systemic abuse. They're not going to talk about, you know, sex abuse in the church. Right. No, it's always something else out there. It's always built on, on this resentment politic in this culture war issue.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, dumb.

[Ali Stuckey]

If you intertwine your faith with your politics, which again every single person of every faith or non faith does, then you are seen as some kind of extremist. And yes, Charlie did believe in the gospel and he talked about that wherever he went. But Charlie was actually like a very big tent guy, a lot more than I am, by the way. And so if they are calling Charlie, who is immoderate in a lot of ways,

[Tim Whitaker]

Charlie Kirk, the guy who wants the Civil Rights act repealed, a Moderate Charlie Kirk, the person who said black women don't have the same. The brain power to do certain jobs and that they stole those jobs away from white women. That's, that's the moderate position in the modern gop.

[April Ajoy]

I think the only reason she's saying he was a moderate is because I, to Charlie's credit, he did call out Trump on the Epstein files like a few weeks before he was murdered.

[Tim Whitaker]

Did he? Did he?

[April Ajoy]

He did.

[Tim Whitaker]

He did.

[April Ajoy]

And then Trump called him and told him to back off and he kind of did.

[Tim Whitaker]

I can't. Ali, the moderate. What she's saying is that in evangelical terms, Turning Point USA is quite ecumenical, meaning they're bringing Doug Wilson and Lance Wall now to the same table. In fact, I just saw a picture of Mark Driscoll, Doug Wilson, Frank Turek, who's an apologist, and Rob McCoy at the same event, all speaking. Those are all very four different theological convictions that historically would never get along. So I, I think that's what she means by moderate. But just hearing her use the word moderate and Charlie Kirk in the same sentence is truly laughable. It's. It's laughable.

[April Ajoy]

They don't actually know the definitions of what it means to be.

[Tim Whitaker]

No.

[April Ajoy]

Moderate or leftist. No, they, they will. Like they call their idea of leftists is literally just people who didn't vote for Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Exactly.

[April Ajoy]

That's it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait, wait, was it Ted Cruz who called Marjorie Taylor Greener leftists a while ago when she defected from Trump?

[April Ajoy]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Like their ideas of the like, anyone who is not aligned with their, like, politics. Exactly. Is a raging leftist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, because this is what they do is they redefine reality. AOC isn't even a real leftist compared to many parts of the world. She's like a moderate progressive comparatively. You go to countries in Europe and check out what they're doing for the leftist party. AOC is tame, but in this world, Joe Biden was the radical Marxist that almost cost us the country, according to Ali Stuckey. And Trump is just the God fearing, moderate, people pleasing, ecumenical president that's just bringing us together. Oh my God. It's the land of delusion. Delusion.

[Ali Stuckey]

If they are calling him a Christian nationalist, then you're all Christian nationalists too. So just get over your fear of being called that. Browntown is skeptical. As she described a church community where women taught to submit to their husbands claimed they were living fulfilling live satnine.

[Documentary Narrator]

Well, Pastor Wilson leads a growing network of conservative Christian churches and preaches a strict Biblical interpretation of various issues. His followers are taught to follow specific gender roles where wives submit to their husbands and make being a mother and homemaker their primary role, while the husband acts as the head of the household and makes the executive decisions for the family. For my upcoming documentary, I embedded with a tight knit conservative church community in southeast Texas that belongs to Wilson's network of churches. The women there told me they're flourishing and their role as submissive wives.

[April Ajoy]

She's shocked. Shocked.

[Ali Stuckey]

I tell you. I love how she said embedded. Like she went as a spy. Like, did she pretend to be a trad wife too, just so they would talk to her? Yeah, wives who submit to our husbands, I would say, are much happier than wives who don't.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, well, that's first off. Let's just, let's say the quiet part out loud. Trust me, bro, Ally is most likely the breadwinner in their house. Ali is not primarily a homemaker or a mother. She is a conservative pundit who makes a good chunk of money, who writes books on the bestseller list, which, by the way, she can thank feminism for that ability. She can thank early feminists, first wave, second wave feminists for her ability to get on camera and make a ton of money to selling the fraud to other women that their plot in life is to be good submissive wives and mothers to their husbands while she's out here. Right. Getting the attention from her husband, away from her husband, making more money probably than her husband. It's so frustrating to watch that. Right.

[April Ajoy]

Did you watch the CNN special?

[Tim Whitaker]

It didn't come out yet. It got delayed again.

[April Ajoy]

It didn't come out yet.

[Tim Whitaker]

It got delayed twice. Now it's coming out March 22nd. Yes, I've been following it. It's been very frustrating.

[April Ajoy]

I was just. Okay. But I'm pretty sure they interview women who come from Doug Wilson churches that were abused.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. That's right. There's an account called Deconstruction Doulas. It's some women from there I think. Isn't. Isn't Tia Levings also who I've had on the new evangelicals podcast? Isn't she from the Doug Wilson like, like world as well? She's a survivor, I believe that she went to.

[April Ajoy]

And her husband, like, followed his teachings.

[Tim Whitaker]

And again, notice how Ally doesn't talk about the case of Steven Sitler, which Doug Wilson still defends. Doug Wilson married that man off, who was a known child abuser, who was, was at one point sentenced to life in prison but was out, was able to Come out on. On. On parole under the church's care. They. He married off that man to a woman after only their second date in the church. They went on two dates. He married her off and did it.

[April Ajoy]

Did it. Did they have kids?

[Tim Whitaker]

They had one kid. And trigger warning mentions of child abuse here. Steven reoffended with his infant, and now. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Ali won't tell you that. Ali is never going to tell you the countless amounts of women who have suffered real abuse in these spaces under this BS theology that men are somehow supreme and therefore have to be in charge of women because they're just too dumb to function without them.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Ali Stuckey]

Oof.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what she's saying. And this is also why she probably will, at some point in the future, maybe over the next five years, come out and support Doug's position on moving from individual voting, AKA women's suffrage, to a one vote per family type of scenario. Mark my words, Ali will start embracing that the next five years. You heard it here on the show.

[Ali Stuckey]

Wow.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's my prophet. That's my prophetic word.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay, who's happy in, like, a power struggle? But by the way, also those of us who believe in Ephesians 5.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, April.

[April Ajoy]

What power struggle?

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you have one?

[April Ajoy]

No.

[Tim Whitaker]

Me either.

[April Ajoy]

We are. We are partners. We are equals. There's no power struggle. If we have a disagreement, we talk it out like adults.

[Tim Whitaker]

I. I don't want to toot my own horn here, but we're gonna hit 10 years married in July. And like me and Sarah always say, we have a freaking great relationship. And it's quite equitable. Quite equitable. We have different roles that we both agree to. Generally speaking, she doesn't want to deal with the bills. Okay, I'll pay the bills, but I scoop up the floor and clean the kitchen that night. We just give and take, and we agreed on them. There's no lording over.

[April Ajoy]

Beacher and I will be married 12 years in June, and we like beer, does the majority of the cooking because I don't like to cook, and they like to cook, and I always clean the kitchen after. Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

It's. It's just like. There's no power struggle. We're like, great. We. Let's do what works best for each of us and sacrifice when we need to.

[Tim Whitaker]

I just can't fathom this way of living. I mean, even when I was a conservative evangelical, the idea of my wife submitting to me made me so ick. Like I told Sarah when we first started dating, I'm like, look, if you ever drop the S word in front of me, I'm going to vomit. I always hated it. I always hated the notion, now that I've been married, I told. I can't fathom thinking that I'm in charge of my household, and my wife and kids just submit to me.

[Ali Stuckey]

Ew.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, Gross. I remember I never bought into that either. As a girl that grew up in evangelical spaces, I will say my dad was pretty feminist when it came to me, and he used to tell me to start my career first so that, like, before I got married, so that I wouldn't have to play second fiddle to a husband, literally was what my dad would tell me. So I had, like, my dad, like, really empowering me at home and then churches telling me, when you get married, you're going to have to submit to your husband. And I remember being young and kind of looking around at the. The boys that were in youth group or whatever and thinking that it was so stupid that if I married, like, no offense, but you just. There were just people that I knew I was probably smarter than. And I remember thinking how stupid it was that if I married one of those guys that suddenly their word would matter more than mine just because I had a vagina and I never bought it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. Look, this might sound controversial, but hear me out. My issue with what Ali said is not the fact that, like, maybe in some marriages, that's what both people want. You know, maybe there's a scenario where the wife's like, hey, I want to just follow your lead. I want to submit to you. And they're like, okay, that sounds great. I mean, do your thing. The problem is that Ali's selling it as the only way to have a healthy marriage. And statistically, often that type of dynamic does not work out. I'm not saying it can't work out for some people. I'm not saying that there aren't people who have that dynamic who are truly both happy. And that's fine. Like, it's your marriage, not mine. I don't care. But what Ali's doing is she's selling this narrative that the only way to have a healthy marriage is if a woman submits to her husband. Right? And that is just a bunch of hogwash. It's a bunch of b freaking S all the way.

[April Ajoy]

And it gives a lot of COVID for abuse.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally. Totally. And it's dehumanizing. All right, let's keep it going, because

[Ali Stuckey]

we believe in the authority and inerrancy of God's word.

[Tim Whitaker]

We also know those of us who

[Ali Stuckey]

live in these marriages with our husbands that we respect and love so much, that submission isn't some scary word. Like, it's not like your husband ruling over you with an.

[Tim Whitaker]

I have a question for Ellie. If her husband came to her today and was like, you know what? I want you to give up all of your career. I want you to stop writing. I want you just to be at home with the kids and do nothing else, do you think Ali would be like, yes, sir, Absolutely. I submit to my husband. I submit. I submit to his will and leadership. Do you think she really would?

[April Ajoy]

No. You know what? It's so funny to me, too. A lot of the women, and I know women personally, like pastors wives that have shared, you know, the umbrella graphic that Bill Gothard made famous, which is basically the order of hierarchy, which is Christ, then husbands, then the wife, then the children. That's like the order, the. The hierarchy of a biblical family. I know. I know women, like, I feel like the most outspoken women that are talking about submission don't actually submit to their husbands.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

Like, I know for a fact, I saw. I knew a pastor's wife who was. I'm not going to say how I know this, but I just know who would share that graphic and was over the top on female submission to husbands. And she was. You know that joke where it's like, yeah, the. The man is the head, but the wife is the neck and she controls the head. It was 100% a relationship like that.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, you know, it's easy for Allie to say while she's making millions of dollars doing what she wants. I submit to my husband. Okay. Would you really, though? Like, when push came to shove, if he woke up one day and was like, I don't want you doing this anymore. Cancel everything. You're done. Would she be like, well, you're in charge, not me? No, she would not be like that. No. Which, by the way, good for her.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Good for her.

[April Ajoy]

Like, if. If gender roles were reversed, I wouldn't want to Beecher submitting to me either. Like, that feels gross. Like, have a backbone and tell me your opinion. Like, I want to know what you think because I love you and I know I'm not the boss here. Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

I have children that I have to manage in, like, you know, and they have to lead them. Right. I don't want a child attitude in my. In my partner. I don't want to leave my partner. And like, Baby them. Like, no, be a human being, right? Be. Be your own person who can do your own stuff. We'll work together, right? And we'll come to our agreements on how our marriage should work. But I have. I have a 5 and a 3 year old. If I want to deal with, you know, with like, people who just follow me, whatever, after whatever I say, you

[April Ajoy]

know, like, it is also just really dehumanizing for women.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally, totally.

[April Ajoy]

To be told that even if you're right and like, you believe in your full heart that you're a right in an argument, it doesn't matter. You have to submit to whatever the husband says. Like, your opinion actually doesn't matter at the end of the day. And that. That is so dehumanizing. And I can tell you too, like, as a woman who grew up in these churches, the amount of times that in hindsight I knew I was right in an argument. But some Theo bro. Bro brought up, you know, the Timothy verse where, like, women must be silent to just silence me. Like, that happened so often and it was so dehumanizing. Like, I don't. I don't know. It's just. It's not a fun position to be in where. Where a bunch of men just immediate. And it doesn't have to be your husband. There are, There are more extreme beliefs that believe no woman can speak out because they're a woman. And like, your Doug Wilsons fall into that camp.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I mean, if it was fun to be in that position, wouldn't the men want to jump at being the ones under someone else's submission? Right? Like, there's a reason why the men who say this stuff don't want to be on the opposite end of that, of that dynamic. Right? Because everyone knows that when you're lorded over by a tyrant, it's not fun at all. When your autonomy is taken away from you and someone else is calling the shots in your life, it's not fun at all.

[April Ajoy]

One time I actually flip flopped. I gender swapped the umbrella graphic and I posted it on Twitter. But I didn't say I was joking. I just said, this is the biblical hierarchy, Men, you must submit to your wives. And the men lost their minds.

[Tim Whitaker]

No way. Really? Really.

[April Ajoy]

It was really fun. I just started responding to them in the exact same way that men would respond to me. And so I would be like, listen, one day you have a Jezebel spirit, and one day I hope the Lord will convict you to do the right thing. Know your role, brother.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's so funny. Right, let's keep it going.

[Ali Stuckey]

Your fist. It's certainly not having opinions or not having a voice or not having a personality. Like, it is your husband loving you and cherishing you and taking up this mantle of making the very difficult leadership decisions for your family that I am so glad every day I. I don't have to make.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, what, though?

[Ali Stuckey]

Why? Hold on.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, my question is, what decisions? What decisions are so life or death in the family that you're just so glad you don't have to make them? Is it like choosing, like, you know, what credit card to order? Is it like, what health care plan to get? Like, what is it? Give me an example of a moment where you're like, thank God that's my husband's job to make that decision. Like, how. How serious are we talking about? Like, if we're going to get, you know, Mac and cheese, Kraft brand or like, store brand? Like, what decisions are we making that are so crazy that poor Ali just can't handle it or doesn't want to, really? Am I missing something here?

[April Ajoy]

And if it's a really big decision, I would want my opinion to be heard.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my gosh. I could not fathom. Imagine, I mean, could you imagine if, like, you came home and Beatrice was like, hey, I made a life changing decision for our family and it was in the best interest of the family, so just follow my lead on this? That'd be, like, so weird.

[April Ajoy]

I'd be so pissed. I'd be like, why would you did this without even talking to me? What are you doing exactly? Or if I did, like, I would. I would never do that to Beecher either.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my God.

[April Ajoy]

That's also equally weird.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my gosh. Anyway. Okay. Just weird.

[Ali Stuckey]

And so it's actually like a wonderful relief for women to have this leader and to have this ultimate decision maker. Especially when you're in a healthy marriage where your husband respects your wisdom and respects you and you talk through things together and you really do have just like this wonderful love and friendship.

[Tim Whitaker]

And it's okay that that's not submission. Submission. When I think of submission, I think of like an arm bar where, like, you're gonna. I'm gonna force you at some point to do what I want you to do. That's what submission means.

[Ali Stuckey]

This is.

[April Ajoy]

This is literally what I was talking about earlier in the episode. The way that they do semantics. Like the fine line, right? She's now saying, you have this conversation

[Ali Stuckey]

together,

[April Ajoy]

but she's still saying, at the end of the day, the husband makes the Decision. Well, like, it's not. Like, that's still. If you. If I go into a debate. Right. Or an argument, and I know that no matter what I say or what facts I bring or how right I am, that Beecher is going to do what they're going to do regardless of what I say.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And. And whatever they decide, if it goes, if it's the opposite of what I want, I just have to be okay with that. That's. That's not having a conversation together because one person coming in as unequal. Right? Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Yeah. It's so slippery. By the way, Doug Wilson does not believe that, to be clear. Like, Doug Wilson doesn't believe in this kind of conversational approach. He believes that in his words. Again, this is gross. But, you know, women are just to submit and open their garden, and men are to plant and colonize. I mean, that's what he believes.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And she's making basically the same argument as what she made earlier, where she said, we're not trying to flip, force anybody to be Christian. We're just trying to force you to follow our laws.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

You know, like, we're not. You can have a conversation, but you still have to sub. Like, it's just the f. The way she's just dancing around this line to make it sound better than what it actually is 100% did the day.

[Ali Stuckey]

Like, he is the one who bears the responsibility for the spiritual formation of our family, who makes the decisions for a family. It's a good thing. Of course, these women are thriving.

[April Ajoy]

They feel. They feel happy.

[Ali Stuckey]

Like, they feel relieved by that. Can you, of course, have, like, a really mean husband who is abusive in a variety of ways? Of course, but that happens. This. It's not Ephesians 5 that is causing that. It is in nature that is causing that. And as we just saw, like, I'm

[Tim Whitaker]

much imagine saying, wives, submit to your husband, and then being like, well, it wasn't that Bible verse that caused that problem of the man lording over his wife and abusing her. It was sin. Like, dude, no, it's the. It's the interpretation of this passage that is causing the damage here. Oh, gosh.

[Ali Stuckey]

More interested to hear about the views of women that these Middle Eastern migrants that we have been importing into our country and into the West. Like, how does that affect marriage? Like, how about a little expose on some of the female genital mutilation that's happening in places like Minneapolis because of the high concentration of Somalians there? Like, if we want to talk about how women are treated. Maybe not like loving Christian marriages where they're making sourdough to try to find some kind of hidden Handmaid's tale narrative going on here. It's really.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, can I just say something about this? First off, I have no clue what she's talking about with the Somali immigrants and gender whatever she called mutilation. Whatever. A couple things. Number one, there is no distinction between Ali's version or Doug Wilson's version of men being in charge of their women and extreme factions of other religious groups that do the same thing. Okay. Like you can find extremists like this in any tradition, Islam, Christianity, et cetera, that have the same thing where the women essentially is underneath the authority of man. She is the property of man. And it's just so funny hearing Ali try to paint this like disparaging picture of people in other countries who maybe have the same rhetoric and same ideals, but they get it from, from a different path. Then tried to separate the distinction between her version of female submission and their version.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I did a quick Google search and it looks like Fox News reported in February that there was a Minnesota based survivor that said there is female genital mutilation happening in some communities. I mean, and I have heard that in some forms. But the. What Ali isn't under, like understanding is that when you take a woman's autonomy away, it, it leads to extreme cases like that. Like that. That's, that's where that goes in all that.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's the whole point. Okay, let's just say, because I do know that in parts of the world this is like a very common practice of like doing this to women.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Terrible. And it comes from the idea that women are under the authority of man.

[April Ajoy]

Like that women have no rights. I have heard evangelical pastors either never talk about female pleasure. It's always about the importance of pleasing your husband. And I've even heard some people say that like women don't, don't need to orgasm. That or it's not really a thing. Like it's not important for women to have pleasure in that way. And like that's an evangelical spaces that's not as extreme as, you know, the genital mutilation that she's talking about. But like if you're not. And not having an orgasm is not having an orgasm.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, you know what is pretty freaking extreme? What's freaking extreme is her pastor, John MacArthur, shaming a woman publicly because she would leave her abusive husband. What's extreme is John Piper saying that as we covered that a woman might have to endure a smack or two and then go to the church. So don't. This is this. This is. First off, we are not. Ali is not Somali. Ali is not Muslim. Ali has no business that people will handle that shit. Ali has to handle her own stuff. Ali has to handle her own stuff. And it's always gonna be a deflection. Well, it's not us. Look at them. No, have a look in your own house. Doug Wilson marries off predators. Doug Wilson's tribe has stories. Survivors who have come forward about women being spanked by their husbands, about women not having access to the checkbook and not having anywhere to go experiencing marital sexual abuse. That. Oh, no, no, ignore that. Think about this alleged story from Fox News about this one story of what happened to a Somali immigrant in Minnesota and see that as the major pressing issue that you have to think about right this second. And don't worry about Doug Wilson and what's happening here.

[April Ajoy]

That's what's going on. I feel like what she just did, too, is. Is really telling because one, she was just talking about how great submission is for a woman to do to a man.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And then she kind of pivots. She's like, but hey, we're at least not as bad as these people that do this with female submission.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Which is. Is weird that she would even jump to. To show an example of really awful female submission when she was just talking about how great it is 100%. Like, she. She tell. She told herself, like, female submission can lead to abuse and these terrible things, which is why people like us speak against it. And again, like you said earlier, if that's how you want to form your marriage and you can be happy and healthy that way and no one's being abused, fine, great. Knock yourself out.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do your thing.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

It's. It's the way Ali says only women or like, only marriages that have this viewpoint are happy and like, this is the only way to have a good godly marriage. Because that's not true.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's not true. It's not true. It's just a bunch of hogwash. So anyway, friends, we want to come on and talk about this briefly and kind of respond to the. The latest. The latest comments about this upcoming documentary and just all. Everything, everything that you just saw. Please make sure to give this video a like. Subscribe to the channel. If you're looking for a better path forward in faith, please make sure to check out the New Evangelicals, the organization that produces this show. We have all kinds of free resources. Tne Connect is a great community space. We have an Instagram account, two other podcasts, the new Evangelicals Podcast, which I host. An advocacy hour which is hosted by Melinda Hale, our executive director, and Rebecca Thomas, our board president. Interviewing amazing people talking about all, all, all, all kinds of all parts of life and just ways to put your faith into action. So, yeah, I think that's all I got for now. How about you?

[April Ajoy]

Woohoo.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, we'll see you all next time. See ya.