Episode Overview

Podcast: The Tim & April Show, by The New Evangelicals
Episode: 95. "MAGA Christians are losing it over CNN’s Christian Nationalism documentary"
Date: March 17, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

This episode responds to conservative commentator Ali Stuckey’s reaction to CNN’s upcoming documentary on Christian nationalism. Tim and April break down Ali’s arguments, analyze the definition and impact of Christian nationalism, discuss the right’s backlash to the documentary, and unpack broader issues including the myth of America as a Christian nation and the dynamics of gender roles in conservative Christianity.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Responding to Ali Stuckey’s Critiques (00:40–05:11)

• Ali’s Claim: "People somehow, inexplicably, would call me a Christian nationalist for literally no reason at all. But that is because people haven't actually tried to define it." (01:50, Ali Stuckey)
• Hosts' Rebuttal: Multiple books and articles exist defining Christian nationalism. April herself wrote a book on it; Tim references Andrew Whitehead’s academic work.
  • Quote: "In short, white Christian nationalism is a cultural framework asserting that civic life in the United States should be organized according to a particular form of conservative Christianity." (03:55, Tim quoting Whitehead)
• Ali’s Contradiction: She claims there's no definition, then proceeds to use CNN’s definition almost verbatim.
  • Quote: "Did I not just say that? Did Ali not answer her own critique from 30 seconds ago that... there's no definition. You just gave a definition, Ali." (06:51, Tim)

2. The Myth of America’s “Christian Nation” Founding (06:27–10:18)

• Ali’s Assertion: America has a Christian foundation, and believing otherwise is biased.
• Tim & April’s Rebuttal: Founders did not establish a Christian nation and included clear separation of church and state. The First Amendment, lack of religious tests for office, and varied beliefs of the founders (many were deists, not evangelicals) are cited as evidence.
  • Quote: "If the founders wanted a Christian nation, they would have made our Constitution incredibly Christian. It would have been incredibly clear about Jesus and the Bible and God, but they didn't." (08:00, Tim)

3. Neutrality and the False Dichotomy of Worldviews (10:36–12:55)

• Ali’s Argument: There’s no such thing as neutrality; a nation will be either Christian, Islamic, or secular progressive.
  • Quote: "I would be hard pressed to understand how a Christian could argue against that. I mean, there's no such thing as neutrality." (10:36, Ali)
• Hosts’ Response: Societies strive for neutrality and protection of rights regardless of belief. Ali projects an “all-or-nothing” mentality onto secularism and Islam; Tim and April prefer a secular society because it protects everyone’s rights, including Christians'.
  • Quote: "In a progressive secular world, they would have every right to still have their exact beliefs, to still worship exactly how they want to." (12:55, April)

4. “Legislating Morality” and Consistency (14:44–17:19)

• Ali’s Position: Every law legislates morality; Christian worldview should naturally inform law.
• Hosts' Critique: Christian nationalists are selective about where morality should be legislated (abortion, gender, etc.), but downplay it with guns, poverty, or racism.
  • Quote: "People say you can't legislate morality... They will say that when it comes to abortion... but when it comes to guns... We can't legislate that morality because sin will always be with us." (16:23, April)

5. “Persecution” & Freedom of Belief (17:21–19:33)

• Ali’s Claim: Christian conservatives are uniquely told not to bring their beliefs into public life.
• Hosts’ Response: Christians are not persecuted; the line is drawn when beliefs remove others’ rights.
  • Quote: "Your right to swing your fist stops where someone else's face begins." (17:38, Tim)
  • Quote: "No one's taking away their right to worship... it's literally like, hey, you need to stop being bullies to these groups of people." (19:13, April)

6. The Charlie Kirk Memorial and “True Christianity” (23:30–30:33)

• Ali’s Skepticism: Being called a Christian nationalist is a scare tactic; claims Charlie Kirk was a “moderate.”
• Hosts’ Pushback: Kirk’s own words and policies conflict with the idea of moderation; denying Christian nationalism is common among those actively spreading it.
  • Quote: "Charlie Kirk, the guy who wants the Civil Rights act repealed, a moderate..." (29:05, Tim)
  • Quote: "Their idea of leftists is literally just people who didn't vote for Trump." (30:21, April)

7. Gender Roles, Marriage, and Submission (31:47–47:50)

• Ali’s Position: Wives who submit to husbands are happier; submission is not about control but loving leadership.
• Hosts’ Experience: Both Tim and April reject hierarchical marriage; see it as unnecessary and dehumanizing. Point out the contradiction of Ali making a living while espousing homemaker roles for others.
  • Quote: "Trust me, bro, Ali is most likely the breadwinner in their house… She can thank feminism for that ability…" (32:38, Tim)
  • Quote: "The most outspoken women that are talking about submission don't actually submit to their husbands." (40:12, April)
• Abuse & Cover for Harm: Submission theology provides cover for abusers and has tangible negative impacts on women.
  • Quote: "It gives a lot of cover for abuse." (38:50, April)

8. What About Abuse in Conservative Spaces? (47:59–53:40)

• Ali’s Deflection: Abuse isn't caused by Ephesians 5 but by sin; pivots to critique of “foreign” practices (e.g., FGM).
• Hosts’ Rebuttal: Abuse and hierarchy are tied to these theologies; systemic abuse and lack of autonomy are frequent in conservative Christian communities.
  • Quote: "It's the interpretation of this passage that is causing the damage here." (48:21, Tim)
  • Quote: "Doug Wilson marries off predators. Doug Wilson's tribe has survivor stories…" (51:25, Tim)
  • Quote: "It's the way Ali says only… marriages that have this viewpoint are happy… that's not true." (53:26, April)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Definitions: “I got three books right here. Here's just three that talk about Christian nationalism. April, you wrote a book on it.” (02:05, Tim)
• On the Founding: "If the founders wanted a Christian nation... they didn't." (08:00, Tim)
• On Rights in Secular Society: “In a progressive secular world, they would have every right to still have their exact beliefs, to still worship exactly how they want…” (12:55, April)
• On Morality: “People say you can't legislate morality… but on the culture war issues, we can absolutely, absolutely legislate morality.” (16:53, Tim)
• On “True Christianity” Branding: "She has positioned her politics and her Christian nationalism as, quote unquote, true Christianity." (27:43, April)
• On Marriage Equality: "There's no power struggle… We. Let's do what works best for each of us." (36:24, April)
• On Submission Deflection: "Ali won't tell you the countless amounts of women who have suffered real abuse in these spaces under this BS theology." (34:54, Tim)
• On Doubling Down: "She told on herself; female submission can lead to abuse… which is why people like us speak against it." (52:56, April)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:50 - Ali Stuckey’s initial claim: Christian nationalism isn’t defined.
• 02:37 - April’s concise definition of Christian nationalism.
• 03:55 - Tim referencing academic work on Christian nationalism.
• 06:27 - Discussion on Doug Wilson and abuse allegations.
• 08:00 - Constitutional arguments against “Christian nation” myth.
• 10:36 - Ali’s argument against neutrality in government.
• 12:55 - April on rights in a secular society.
• 14:44 - “Legislating morality” inconsistencies.
• 17:38 - Tim on boundary of belief and others’ rights.
• 23:30–24:44 - Memorial service for Charlie Kirk and “true Christianity.”
• 27:43 - April on the “true Christianity” moniker.
• 29:05 - Tim on Charlie Kirk’s “moderation.”
• 31:47–33:23 - Gender roles and the “tradwife” segment.
• 36:24–41:49 - Egalitarian marriages; hosts’ personal examples.
• 47:59 - Ali attributing marital abuse to sin, not theology.
• 51:25 - Tim on evangelical abuse cover-ups.

Conclusion

Tim and April refute common Christian nationalist talking points, using research, personal experience, and historical context to dissect arguments made by Ali Stuckey and others on the religious right. They challenge misrepresentations about the founding of America, the nature of neutrality, and what submission in marriage actually produces. The episode delivers a strong call for justice-oriented, inclusive Christianity and draws clear lines between healthy expressions of faith and the exclusionary, sometimes harmful, ideologies taking root in Christian nationalist circles.

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