← The Tim & April Show
Loading summary
Transcript170 lines
- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics, and culture.
- [00:23]
B
We are live.
- [00:24]
A
Oh, hello. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April show. I am April Ajoy.
- [00:29]
B
I am Tim Whitaker.
- [00:31]
A
We've got a great show for you today. It's gonna be talking about some really happy things.
- [00:38]
B
Well, this is a happy show. I think when our audience thinks of Tim and April, they think of happiness and butterflies and rainbows.
- [00:44]
A
Never talking about anything bad.
- [00:46]
B
Good news all the time. No bad. No bad. Yeah. So this will be a fun one, a real rivety one. Where do you want to start? How do we even intro?
- [01:00]
A
Let's just start with Sean Foyt, shall we?
- [01:04]
B
Okay, we can do that, I think.
- [01:06]
A
If you don't know who Shawn Floyd is, he is a worship leader that became pretty. I started. I first learned of him during the pandemic because he started when they were. When, you know, when we were supposed to stay home and social distance and not be in large groups being. Because Deadly virus.
- [01:28]
B
Yeah. Something about a pandemic. A global pandemic. No vaccine yet. Something like that. Yeah.
- [01:33]
A
So many people died. He was like, oh, this is Christian persecution. Because churches were being advised to not meet in person because again, global pandemic. And I have to say, too, as someone who lived in Tennessee at the time, like, no churches around us actually followed it. And we had Covid surges because they never followed it. They were very anti mask. They didn't social distance, like it was a thing. So like. Like, even the narrative they were pushing that, like they were forcing all churches to close, wasn't even true.
- [02:12]
B
That's funny, because in New Jersey, even the conservative churches, many of them closed down. Like my church at the time, which is an AG church, Assemblies of God, we shut down and followed all protocols. There were maybe one or two churches that were like. It was rumored we're flaunting the protocols, but in the Northeast, a lot of us did shut down.
- [02:30]
A
Well, that's good. Yeah, that's good.
- [02:32]
B
I thought so.
- [02:32]
A
I guess it just depends where you lived and who your governor was and who was pushing it. But anyway, they turned it into this whole Christian persecution narrative. And so Sean Foyt decided to do what he called worship protests. And so he started these large gatherings to have worship services.
- [02:50]
B
Yeah.
- [02:51]
A
In the. In the middle of COVID Did I
- [02:55]
B
ever tell you that this is how I got the idea for the new evangelicals?
- [03:01]
A
No.
- [03:01]
B
Because of Sean Foyt.
- [03:03]
A
No. Wow.
- [03:04]
B
No, it's true. It's true, because, like you, I was a musician in the church. I was a drummer. And it was 2020 when I first saw Sean Floyd doing these maskless protests. And again, I was still in church world. I was still pretty conservative. But I remember thinking to myself, this dude as a worship guy does not speak for me. Like, I am. I am outraged that this guy is going around the country flaunting restrictions during a global pandemic and then singing songs that I play in church. And I was so frustrated. It was like August of 2020. That's when I got the name the new evangelicals. I was like, we need something different. We need a new evangelical movement. We need new evangelicals. That's how I got the name from Sean Foyt. So without Sean Foight, there is no new evangelicals. Without new evangelicals, there is no Tim and April show. So I guess, in a weird way. Thank you, Sean. Thanks, Sean, for doing us a solid. But, yeah, no, he really was the reason, because, like you, I was following him then as well and was just absolutely flabbergasted that he was doing this.
- [04:06]
A
I think Rolling Stone called him Jesus Christ super spreader.
- [04:10]
B
They did.
- [04:11]
A
And then Sean Foyt turned that into T shirt merch that they. They sold.
- [04:16]
B
Yeah. And I think it's important for people to know that Sean comes from Bethel. Bethel is a church. For those of you who listen to our interview with Promise, we talked a lot, a lot about Bethel. It's. That's the same church. They do a lot of worship music. Sean comes out of that church long term. A while ago, he. He also. Did he run for congress in California. He had some kind of political bid. It totally failed.
- [04:39]
A
I think. So, yeah, he totally failed. Sounds familiar.
- [04:41]
B
So he was a pretty unknown. I mean, he was on a few songs, like on Bethel, but he was a pretty unknown worship guy. It wasn't until he started doing this that he started getting a lot of notoriety and fame.
- [04:54]
A
So he ran for the US House to represent California's third congressional district and lost in the primary in 2020.
- [05:02]
B
Okay, there you go. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. So that's John Foyt.
- [05:07]
A
Yes. Who's. Who's kind of going through his own scandal at the moment.
- [05:12]
B
He is, because context. Sean Voit's ministry exploded in wealth when he started this. This huge, you know, faith over fear, let us worship vibe. I think he went from like, $200,000, like, 5 million in one year.
- [05:28]
C
And.
- [05:29]
B
And there have been a lot of questions about how Sean's been spending that money. Rolling Stones did an article on this and saying like, look, he's, he, he has now three properties. Like it just kind of felt weird. And there were a bunch of whistleblowers I think a year ago now that came out who worked for Sean Foit saying this dude is unethical, like he's not spending money correctly. Like there's a lot of shady stuff going on. And the newest story from March 12, according to the Roy's report, is that a donor is. Is now suing Sean Foyt for allegedly misspending $250,000. So what the article says is the owner of a California generator company is suing worship leader John Christopher Sean Foyt for fraud, alleging the musician took a quarter of a million dollar donation and used it to buy personal property. So according to Bray. Go ahead.
- [06:18]
A
Oh, I was just going to say this from the Rolling Stone article in they found that his ministry acquired two parsonages, one in Washington D.C. worth almost a million dollars and then one in san Juan Capistrano, California that he purchased in 2024 for $3.4 million. Then they also said Trinity foundation also identified nine homes personally owned by Sean Foyt registered in his real name, which is John Christopher Foyt. Why is real name apparently is not Sean? One in California, one in Montana and seven in Pennsylvania.
- [07:01]
B
Wow, that must be nice. Must be nice.
- [07:03]
A
According to Trinity foundation, and this is
- [07:07]
B
according to the report, like I said, FO has also been previously accused of financial risisManagement. Last year, nine people who worked for Sean signed a public statement accusing him of long standing misconduct, including embezzlement, wire fraud and failure to report income to the irs. Radio. Really quick. When you run a nonprofit, you have to be very careful with the money and how you spend it. In fact, as someone who unintentionally started a nonprofit, I can tell you that we would put, and we still do put our financial statement on our website so folks can see where the money goes. Because when someone donates to your org, there's a legal obligation to spend that money appropriately. Meaning you can't. Even though I was the sole employee for a long time of the org, I couldn't take donor money and use it for my own, you know, my own benefit. I had, I had a salary set by the board and that's all I could take. Well, the accusation with Sean is that essentially he's using the org as his personal piggy bank. So people are donating all this money under the pretense that they're Keeping the mission going, when in reality, a lot of that money is being used for several houses for personal, you know, personal use, et cetera. That is the accusation of Sean. Yeah.
- [08:17]
A
Yeah. I feel like I, I mean, I grew up in ministry, so I've heard so many behind the scenes things. And there, like the way, the way you'd hear pastors talk about, like, oh, we can just make it a ministry finance. I don't know. It. It led me. I literally made a joke one time I made a sketch with Beecher about being Christians that go on a honeymoon that were ministers where like, oh, if you tell someone Jesus loves, you can write it off. It's a ministry. It's been.
- [08:47]
B
Yeah, no, for sure. Because, I mean, look, I understand the temptation. You have a lot of money coming in, right? And you're like, whoa, this is more than I'm ever gonna have in my lifetime. Why not justify it for my own use? After all, I'm working for the ministry, right? I understand how someone can get there, but it's so improper. And that's why you have a board of directors. That's why nonprofits have to have accountability structures so people who are employed or who found the org can't just pillage it for their own personal use. Right. And it's frustrating because in this Christian world that you and I grew up in, there's such emphasis on virtue and on integrity and on holiness. Right. And on purity. So you assume that the people you're giving money to are good faith, that the money you are giving them is actually going to the expenses of that it takes to make the ministry happen. But over and over again, we see the opposite. Right. Sean for is one example among many of people who, who use these ministries as their own personal piggy bank to enrich themselves and paint this narrative to their audience that, oh, I'm in need of money to make this thing happen, when in reality they're using it for cars, for, for trips, for, you know, homes, et cetera.
- [10:03]
A
It's absolutely true. So the reason why we're telling you about Sean Foy, just to give you some context, is because he is currently doing a tour with Russell Brand.
- [10:16]
B
Ta da.
- [10:17]
A
Oh, my God, I can't. So. So our larger conversation is how right wing Christian evangelical circles are just like a, A hotbed for predators.
- [10:33]
B
It's a beehive, man. They just produce this, right?
- [10:36]
A
Like you go, so anyway, if you don't know who Russell Brand is, he is currently, currently. This is real time trial, like, currently going through trials in Britain, I think I saw that, I think the trial set sometime in the summer. But if you don't know, last year he was charged, he had five charges in the UK for sexual assault in Britain, including one and another of oral that he pled not guilty to. So that I don't think that trial, there's nothing been ruled upon. He's not been found guilty or innocent at this point. Then just this past December, he was charged with two additional charges of sexual assault, including one of from different women that just came out this past December that he recently also pled not guilty to. So he has multiple accusations and multiple charges against him in real time. He's not been found not guilty or guilty. He is currently going through trial from charges and accusations from multiple women.
- [11:46]
B
And the police have been working on this for a long time. And look, I don't know how the UK operates. I will just say that in my understanding in America, for the police to charge someone with crimes like this, they have to have a lot of evidence that supports their claim. They don't want to bring someone into trial and waste people's money and time. If there isn't a real case to be made. The fact that the police also added on additional charges, that's a lot of smoke. Okay. And we know statistically, not that it's impossible, but it's incredibly rare for someone to make up sexual assault allegations. The rate is like, I think it's like, I think it's like 3 or 4% of people claiming these, these crimes make them up. They're, it's very, very, very rare.
- [12:32]
A
Right.
- [12:32]
B
So you know, it's.
- [12:33]
A
Well, because so many, so many like people who are assaulted, victims, survivors are not believed. Even if you have evidence, you're not believed. And as we're seeing today, Russell Brand has made a new life for himself in these right wing political spaces. He's now touring with a worship leader, Sean Foyt, as this like redeemed saved man.
- [12:56]
B
Here. Here's the caption on Sean Foyt's own Instagram. A long haired missionary worship leader raised in the mountains of Montana, paired with a British movie actor, former hedonist, turned Holy Ghost revivalist. And now we're traveling across America together preaching Jesus, calling people to repentance, praying for the sick and baptizing hungry hearts in the presence of God. Proof that when Jesus transforms a life, he wastes nothing and he loves using the most unlikely people to spark revival. By the way, this sounds very chatgpt to me and there's a lot there's, there's several dashes. That is always kind of a telltale sign. But whatever, it is unreal. It's unreal that, that, that, that, that this is. Well, it's not unreal. It is very believable. Which makes it so discouraging. Right? It makes it so discouraging that a man being accused of financial impropriety with his ministry and a man who has several accusations and is facing trial of sexual assault are on tour together pretending that somehow they're representing holiness and revival and God and Jesus. And people are showing up to these events thinking these men are called by God to do this work. I should also note here, for Russell Brand is notorious for shape shifting into different spaces that give him clout and money and fame. He started out leftist. Okay.
- [14:14]
A
There's actually I, I was very conservative when I first knew of him and I did not like him because he was so left.
- [14:21]
B
Right. And there's a really good video on YouTube. I don't know who did I watch it a while ago that kind of chronicles his, his shift from left wing. Almost like, you know, kind of crunchy, you know, New age spirituality. Yeah. And then when the pandemic happened, and also she, she ties it back to just showing like, like how his view count was pretty low on YouTube. Then he did one video on the vaccine, just asking questions about it, and it shot up. And that was the beginning of him turning to, to more alt right. So he has this shift where he gets more views pushing anti conspiracy, anti vaccine conspiracies. Right. And then he moves from that into the religious space after the accusations of sexual assault come to fruition. And what, what is the church? What do evangelicals do? Well, we have to welcome him with open arms because. Grace. Because of grace. That's the excuse.
- [15:14]
C
Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or any. Anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor. Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can you can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.
- [16:26]
D
Hi, my name is Leanne. I live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm 65 years old and both my husband and I grew up in a fairly conservative evangelical church. But about 20 years ago we began to question some of the teachings in that church and we embarked on our own process of deconstruction and reconstruction, although it didn't have a name at the time. And we have recently started attending a wonderful church that is fully affirming and fully inclusive of our LGBTQ siblings in Christ. And we absolutely love it. It's the best faith experience of our lives. And I so appreciate Tim and the new Evangelicals team. I so appreciate the online resource and I have become a donor because I believe so strong in the really important work they're doing and I would encourage anyone listening to consider doing the same. Thank you.
- [17:29]
A
New Year, New Me. Cute. But how about New Year, New money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're going to crush start the year off right. Download the Experian app Based on FICO Score 8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details.
- [17:58]
B
Experian Lifelock how can I help?
- [18:02]
A
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
- [18:04]
B
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [18:08]
A
What do I do? My refund though.
- [18:10]
C
I'm freaking out.
- [18:10]
B
Don't worry, I can fix this. This lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.
- [18:17]
A
I'm so relieved.
- [18:18]
B
No problem.
- [18:19]
A
I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [18:21]
B
One in four was a fraud. Paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [18:34]
A
So the reason we want to point this out, like if it kind of helps explain how so many evangelicals are still supporting Donald Trump because, like, there's, There is a pattern of accepting abusive predators, harmful people into the fold. The one caveat with Trump that still honestly baffles me is that he's never once even kind of repented or shown an ounce of repentance. Like, when you grow up in the church, they'll. They often will say, like, it doesn't matter what you did, God can forgive the most heinous of crimes. Which is a very, you know, positive, uplifting message when you think you're terrible and awful. As a kid, like, I thought I was like, the worst person ever. Because they, they also teach that, like, all sins are equal in the eyes of God, except if you're gay.
- [19:30]
B
Right?
- [19:30]
A
That one was always worse.
- [19:32]
B
Stealing a Candy Bar from 711 and murder are the same before God, but if you're gay, you're out. That's it. Toast.
- [19:40]
A
So stupid. But, yeah, so anyway, and I don't. I mean, Russell Brand's pled not guilty, which I imagine. I don't know, it does. It doesn't seem there's repentance there. I'm sure he's gonna frame it as like a persecution.
- [19:55]
B
Here's, here's, here's my thing I am with you about. For a long time, April, I also wondered about the Trump repentance thing, but as I thought about it more, it actually tracks. Because think about it. Mark Driscoll, who burned down several churches, right? Figuratively, he has not repented for his abuse, for his narcissism. There is an entire podcast series devoted to Mark Driscoll that still chops tops the Christian podcast charts several years later. Okay? That. That's how in depth it was.
- [20:23]
A
The rise and fall of Mars Hill, if you want.
- [20:26]
B
Mark has never repented.
- [20:28]
C
Never.
- [20:28]
B
Right. Sean Foy isn't repenting from. From his accusations of financial misconduct. Right? Why would Russell Brand repent for sexual assault? Why? What? Why? Why? All he has to do is say, I'm a changed man. All he has to do is say, I receive Christ as my Lord and Savior. He doesn't have to show any remorse. He doesn't have to show any accountability, any responsibility. As long as he says the right things and he's. And he's a celebrity, well, that's another win for the kingdom, right? Because you, April, you know, you and I, we. Whenever we saw a celebrity become a Christian, we're like, ah, one more on our side, right? One more on team.
- [21:07]
A
On team Jesus, right? We don't have many options. To brag about our side.
- [21:13]
B
Is it Kevin Sorbo from God's Not Dead? Like, he's like our top guy.
- [21:17]
A
Oh, man.
- [21:19]
B
Roseanne Bar. I mean, we're not really. We're not really swinging for the top tier here.
- [21:23]
A
You know, Kid Rock is another one who.
- [21:26]
B
Yes.
- [21:27]
A
Like, now he's supposedly become a Christian, even though he's still singing his old songs. And they're like, oh, what a changed, beautiful man.
- [21:36]
B
It really is cheap grace. Like, there's this. There's this concept by DJ Bonhoeffer called cheap grace. And this idea of it's grace that costs you nothing, you know? And that's what this is like. As long as you say the right things in the culture war conversation, it doesn't matter how many accusations that are credible you have of sexual assault. It doesn't matter because you're being used by God and touch not God's anointed. Right. This is.
- [21:59]
A
This.
- [21:59]
B
This is the Trump thing. Trump is all over the Epstein files. Trump was BFF with the pedophile. Trump has credible accusations from a witness that he assaulted her as a child. It doesn't matter to evangelicals. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because God has his hand on Trump.
- [22:14]
A
I think the first time I realized that the way that we just blanket forgive people, if they just act like, oh, I'm a Christian now. God forgave me, then like, oh, well, if God forgave you, then we need to forgive you and just move on. No accountability. I saw unironically back when. Did you watch that Jeffrey Dahmer show on Netflix?
- [22:38]
B
This was just enough to hate it. I was like, no, I didn't actually
- [22:42]
A
watch it because I'm like, I don't like the. I don't know, the idea of watching someone who was so, like, off, like,
- [22:49]
B
accountable, and I felt weird glorifying someone like that through media.
- [22:53]
A
Yeah.
- [22:53]
B
I was like, no, thank you.
- [22:54]
A
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't actually watch it, but a lot of people were watching it, and a lot of people were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer at the time. And if you don't know who he is, he was a serial killer who ate people. Yeah, that. Like that.
- [23:06]
B
The worst of the worst.
- [23:07]
A
I mean, he was in prison, allegedly. He said the Sinner's prayer while he was in prison and became a Christian. And so I. I think he died in prison. Right. Hold on. Let me. Let me.
- [23:21]
B
I can't fact check. Yes.
- [23:23]
A
Yeah, he died a while ago. He was beaten to death by a fellow Inmate, according to the AI Overview. And I don't always trust AI, but that's what it says. Anyway. He. He did die in prison in the 90s, so he'd been long dead when this came out. But the rumor has it is that he became a Christian while he was in prison. And I kid you not, I saw during the. When everyone was talking about Jeffrey Dahmer because of the series, I saw a Christian girl influencer. I don't remember her name because it just showed up organically. I made a video about it. At the time, she was selling T shirts that said Scandalous Grace on it. And she made this long post that was basically, she got the idea from Jeffrey Dahmer because Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven now because he asked God to forgive him, and that is the scandal of grace. And made this whole elaborate thing about how great God is because he forgave the horrors of Jeffrey Dahmer and that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven. And, like, literally was making money off of exploiting this idea of. Anyway, it was just. It really grossed me out. And I was like, I don't think, like, yes, God could forgive. Like, I believe everybody is capable of changing for the better, but I feel like we should have some lines, right? Like, I. I don't want to go to a heaven if there's a Jeffrey Dahmer up there.
- [24:56]
B
Look, let's. Let's just say. Just say that at the end of his life, Jeffrey Dahmer truly was so sorry and repentant for what he did. That's still not a reason to glorify him. Like, the consequences. Is that the consequence? Is that right? Why would we. Why would we make an icon out of someone who created so much hell on earth for his victims? Right. Even if he was sorry before he died, that doesn't excuse or erase, like, his actions that were some of the most depraved actions in human history. Right. To sell merch or to try and sell it as Scandalous Grace Again, it's a reinforcement in this white evangelicalism of, like, as long as you pray this prayer, and as long as you're not gay, it doesn't matter what you've done. You're good. It's wild.
- [25:46]
A
It's also weird to me. I'm literally just thinking out loud right now because this is. This thought just popped in my head. But it was so odd. Like, when we would have guest speakers come into church or youth group, or we would have, like, testimony night. Yeah, the testimonies that always got the Biggest applause and like that were like, became the heroes of the faith that got platforms really quickly were the people who had done like terrible things, right? Or, or like just got caught up in like this really quote unquote terrible lifestyle that they condemn all the time. But like, it was like the worse your past was, the more likely you were to be celebrated in the church. And I remember I was relatively a good kid now. I still felt terrible about myself because I was told I was inherently evil and disgusting.
- [26:35]
B
Right.
- [26:35]
A
But I was a good kid. And I almost remember feeling kind of envious of these people with these really elaborate testimonies. And I always thought it was a little weird how we celebrated the people that did the really, really bad things that we were none of us were supposed to do. But they got all these accolades and like praise at the end of the day, which in a way was kind of encouraging people go, be that prodigal son. Come back. You get your testimony and then you get the book deal and you get all the speaking engagements and like all this stuff. But then they didn't reward the people that actually followed all the rules their whole life because that was boring.
- [27:11]
B
I legit thought it was just me.
- [27:15]
A
You thought that way too?
- [27:16]
B
Yes. Cause I was the good kid following all the rules. I had no story. I've never to this day even been drunk in my life. Okay, like, true story. And I remember thinking like, I guess my story isn't that important or powerful because I've just always been a decent kid who, you know, gets anxious whenever he lusts after someone. That was like the extent of like, you know, like my worst sin ever was that I was a 15 year old teenager. You know, I always thought, yeah, because you're right. You would hear these people be like, I spent years in the drug world. I, I sold so much cocaine, I did so many.
- [27:52]
A
I was in jail.
- [27:53]
B
I slept with women like crazy. Than God redeemed me. Amen. This guy's amazing. I'm like, well, I guess my story sucks. You know, I grew up in church and I've been a, I, I went through the Awana program with flying colors. I was a sword drill champion. Yeah. You know, it's like I would feel guilty. Like, I guess I have to go and do some hard crime.
- [28:16]
A
I would almost feel guilty for not being bad enough.
- [28:19]
B
Right.
- [28:21]
A
But then I would feel guilty for thinking that because I'm like, no, that's. Then it's like, oh, my flesh, I don't need it, I don't need that. Like the
- [28:30]
B
how prideful. How prideful of me to want this kind of attention.
- [28:34]
A
There's a reason I haven't said it until now.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah. I legit had to say same thoughts over and over again as a kid. That's so funny. I really thought it was just me. I thought it was just me. Wow.
- [28:47]
A
And to be clear, like, I, I fully believe that people can change. And I do think there is something beautiful about redemption and, you know, becoming a better person. Because at the end of the day, you know, we all are just trying to be better people. But I do think the way evangelical churches just accepts with open arms people that have done really egregious things. I mean, we, we talked recently too, about Robert Morris.
- [29:14]
B
Yeah.
- [29:15]
A
Megachurch pastor in Texas, was one of Trump's spiritual advisors in his first term. Was just convicted of assaulting a 12 year old back when he was in his 20s.
- [29:26]
B
Yeah. In like the 80s.
- [29:29]
A
Yeah. So he, I think he's still serving his prison sentence, but then it was
- [29:33]
B
like a six month sentence. It's pretty light.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah, it was a slap on the wrist. But another pastor went and visited him in jail and made this whole long post about how God forgives. And he was so honored to be with Robert Morris.
- [29:45]
B
Landon shot. Landon shot. Pastor of mercy culture.
- [29:48]
A
Right. And he downplayed everything that had happened for years.
- [29:52]
B
That is what. Okay, look, I'm going to say something that's going to shock you. I actually agree with Franklin Graham on something. Franklin Graham in the 90s when he was writing a letter about Bill Clinton having an affair in the White House. He brings up in his letter that people will often cite David and how David was a man after God's own heart and how God forgave David. But Franklin Graham goes on to say in that open letter to Clinton, but there were still major consequences for David after he sexually assaulted Bathsheba. I mean, he says had an affair, but it was sexual assault. And he talks about how David's life after that was never the same. There were permanent consequences for his actions. His kingdom was never what it was, et cetera. I agree with that. Robert Morris sure can be repentant, but there are still massive permanent consequences someone like that should have for assaulting. I'm using that word because of YouTube. We all know what the other word I'm thinking is. You know, our word.
- [30:48]
A
I accidentally said the word earlier when I was out.
- [30:51]
B
Don't worry, I made it. I made a little, A little time.
- [30:54]
A
I know. Sorry. Literally, as I said, I was like, oh, I didn't mean to say that censor.
- [30:58]
B
But my point is that, you know, Robert Morris can in theory be forgiven, but still have major consequences. Like, hey, the actions. You, you violated the sacred dignity of another human being who was a child in one of the worst ways possible as a fellow image bearer. The consequences for that is that you are not fit to lead other people in, in any kind of spiritual capacity. That's a very reasonable consequence. Despite him being quote, unquote forgiven. Right? For that action, that's still a very reasonable consequence. But instead, Robert Morris hides that egregious sin. He becomes the megachurch pastor of one of the largest churches in America, becomes Trump's spiritual advisor and buries it. Then thanks to the resilience of the survivor for finally gets the attention brought to him about what he did. Then he resigns and now he's charged and Landon shots like, hey, God forgave him. It's all good. Like, what, what a testimony of mercy. What do you mean? He was unrepentant for two and a half decades.
- [32:05]
A
His sin found him out very rich, very rich.
- [32:10]
B
And his sin found him out there. There's permanent consequences for that. Permanent. And the consequences you are disbarred by from ever leading in any kind of church capacity. You can't even be on the freaking parking lot team, bro. You can attend and go home. The end.
- [32:25]
A
Which is why it's so wild to me that Russell Brand is automatically given a platform in these spaces while he's currently, currently undergoing trial for like, violating other people.
- [32:41]
B
Right?
- [32:41]
A
Like in a, in such a, such an egregious, terrible way. Like at a minimum, at a minimum, wait until he's, you see if he's convicted or not. You know, like he's currently on in trial.
- [32:57]
B
Here's what I'll say and I, I want your thoughts on this too. I think that one of the things that we can do in the more progressive space is that we can also create binaries of either something is innocent or it's, or it's the worst thing imaginable. Like there's no scale, right? Sexual abuse is one of the worst things you can do. Now, financial abuse is also bad, but it's not the same thing as sexual abuse. The consequences are infinitely different. Right? And so we have to be, we have to be realistic here, right? We're talking about, in Russell Brand's case and Robert Morris's case, examples of violating someone else's humanity in a permanent, lasting way that, that will always be in their mind some way somehow that's a different consequence. Right. That I think than like, you know, whatever else we might think is like, you know, problematic. Right. Like maybe. Maybe there's a pastor who has. Who has an anger issue. Sure. Consequences, absolutely. But we're not talking about that here. We're not talking about, you know, pastor so and so said a bad word or he got too angry one day. We're talking about actual sexual abuse and the fact that Sean Foy contort Russell Brand while he's going through trial facing not one, but several credible accusations of violating the dignity of a fellow image bearer. And Sean's theology teaches him that what he's doing is a. Okay. That is a bankrupt. I would argue demonic theology that only enables more chaos and destruction in the world. It's absurd. It's a freaking cert.
- [34:28]
A
And the comments that are cheering them on, like, really just like it infuriates me. I just gotta be honest about that. Yeah.
- [34:38]
B
I love this for y'.
- [34:39]
A
All.
- [34:39]
B
Praise God. Oh, yay. This is the Jesus way. Love this so much. Best duo ever. It's like, what are you guys talking about? Oh, my God.
- [34:49]
A
Like, I don't, I don't, like, I don't even know what else to say at this point. Like, you just have people that are willing to platform people that. You don't know that they've changed. You don't know that they're better people. And like, at a minimum, you shouldn't have a platform. And let's not even talk about the celebrity culture that goes on in church spaces and evangelical spaces. Like, there is a decent chance that there will be. That he could. He could do it again with the thousand percent. The, the women that are going to be starstruck, that are going to be put in compromising situations that he's going to then exploit. Exploit. Could allegedly. I don't know. I just saying, like, I don't. I would not trust. I wouldn't trust anyone around him.
- [35:37]
B
No, I wouldn't trust him. I wouldn't trust Carl Lentz. I don't care. I don't care about his redemption tour. I would not trust Carl Len in leadership ever again. Or with. With. With a woman alone ever again. Right. And why? Because again. And also because the risk is too great. Right. Like, what's, what's the worst case for Russell Brand? It's that he's not allowed to be in leadership. What's the worst case for one of his potential victims? Everlasting permanent scarring and having to work through that for the rest of their life. The ratio of cost to benefit greatly favors Russell Brand and not any potential victim that he could be with. Right. If he has that many credible allegations, enough for the police to bring a case against him. Right. Why would anyone in leadership in the church trust him with leadership around females, around women? Why? That's like a recipe for freaking disaster. Because you're right, that celebrity culture that we've all been a part of. Right. Exists anywhere also in the church. When I meet one of my heroes, so to speak, it's a different, I think, like that they're just infallible. Right. These are just, they're inherently good people. There's an immediate power imbalance between that. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's really wild, man. It's wild to watch over and over. And somehow millions of white evangelicals, like, haven't gotten the hint yet. Like for some reason they just can't see the pattern. They cannot see the pattern of big time leader after big time leader having major, major abuse scandals. I mean, most recently, Greg Laurie. Greg Laurie has a class action lawsuit against him. Greg Laurie is the founder of Harvest Ministries. I believe he's a big Christian nationalist guy. Now does work with Turning Point usa. A class action lawsuit was just filed against him and his church for hiding abuse.
- [37:24]
A
H. And then you have like the Southern Baptist Convention and all of the. The COVID up of sexual abuse that literally like the FBI investigated a few years ago. Like, it's, it's not, it's a very. It's a recurring theme because you have, you have a system that protects, that protects the people in power. And in your eyes, they can do no wrong because of that verse. Do not touch. God's anointed.
- [37:49]
B
Exactly. So the lawsuit against Greg Laurie and the church essentially has allegations of covering up human trafficking, sexual human trafficking that happened in a Romanian, I think, orphanage or somewhere that the church was overseeing. There's a pattern. Again, it's all alleged pattern of hush money. The complaint alleges the systemic practice of buying silence. Evidence scrubbing. In 2018, the same year that Lori praised sex offender HarvardGerd who worked in Romania and likened him to Moses, Harvest leadership allegedly purged its digital archives and video library to remove all evidence of Havsgard's extensive fundraising and ministry work. There's false fundraising and they also allege a soft landing for sex abusers. Quote, despite receiving definitive proof of Habs guards pedophilia in 2004, the consolidated complaint alleges that Harvest leadership abdicated their fiduciary and moral Responsibility by allowing him to remain in his position for four more years to avoid a fundraising scandal. Okay, that's the newest one. Newest one.
- [38:58]
A
There's that phrase I heard this a lot growing up that I think feeds into this idea that God doesn't call the qualified. He qualifies the called. Basically meaning, like, it doesn't matter what this person's been accused of or convicted of or what their past is. It doesn't matter if they don't have a degree in theological studies or they didn't go to seminary. None of that matters. But because you don't have to be qualified if God calls you. And there's no way to checkmate whether or not what, like, what someone said God told them is true or not. I mean, we.
- [39:39]
B
100%.
- [39:40]
A
We can, we can. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, you're taught, like, never question what someone says God told them to do because you don't want to hurt their faith, and you don't want to hurt someone else's faith who might believe it. And. And so you're basically taught that if you have doubts about what someone said God told them or that God called them to do something, you're basically kind of told like, oh, that's just because, like, you're not praying. Right. And you're like, you're being a Debbie Downer or you're trying to hurt the church or you're trying to hurt this person's testimony. So you're literally taught to shut up if you have doubts about it. And all that does is encourage everybody, like, well, no one's saying anything, so this must be of God.
- [40:18]
B
Right? Right. I think it's important to reiterate that we're not looking for perfect systems. They don't exist. Right. We're asking for accountable ones. Any system, any organized anything, whether it's a business or it's a church or it's a other religious institution, is going to have people in it who are going to do bad things. Conflict happens all the time in work, right? There are moments in anyone's life where you made an oopsie, you said the wrong thing, you did the wrong thing, whatever. But there is always a path, right, of like, hey, I have to own that. I'm really sorry. I want to keep moving forward. We're not talking about, like, just normal human interactions where conflict happens. We're talking about issues of major abuse that are not the norm in society. Right? And those systems covering up and protecting too often the person who does the abuse at the Expense of the victim who was abused. Right. And what happens is that there's no system. There's no way for true accountability to happen, because these mega church structures are built with this, like, head honcho who hears from God mentality. How dare we even critique or come against God's anointed one? Because if we do, the whole ministry will fall apart. When you build mega church, everything on one person's personality and that person turns out to be predatory, you have every incentive to cover that up. Because think about in your mind all the souls you're saving for the kingdom. Think about all the people that you're helping every day, all the poor people who are being fed through your food bank. We don't want that to go away. Right. So the system is set up by default to protect the person who is the draw that keeps the system going. That's why I'm so against megachurch culture in particular, because it's inherently an unaccountable system.
- [42:06]
A
Think about Ravi Zacharias.
- [42:09]
B
Totally.
- [42:10]
A
Who was found to have lots of victims of sexual abuse. And the. In the report that came out, I mean, after he had passed, that he. One girl claimed that he told her that if she were to tell anybody, she would be responsible for the loss of millions of souls. So I think, like, agreed, like, I do think there's nuance there. People can be redeemed. But to put those people that did these egregious things to other people, like abuse, assault, those things, to put them in a. In a position of spiritual authority where then now you're having people who have a predatory past that are. That people now look at as. As almost a vessel of God.
- [42:59]
B
Yep.
- [43:00]
A
Like, it's. It's a sp. It's extra egregious because you do have a lot of people that are. I don't. I don't know that gullible is the right word, but that are. Are trained to believe without questioning.
- [43:14]
B
Yep.
- [43:16]
A
That. That is extra egregious.
- [43:18]
B
Like 100.
- [43:19]
A
I don't know. Yeah.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah. The story of Robert Zacharias is one of the worst ones because someone came forward and said, hey, this person has been abusing me. This person has been, like, using, like, spiritual abuse tactics to gain, you know, essentially, you know, self pictures I've sent this person. Right. And no one believed them. No one believed her. No one on. No one took her seriously. Then when he died, they found out that not only was she telling the truth, but there were many other women, mostly masseuses, because he owned a lot of massage Parlors because he had a really bad back. And his whole thing was that whenever I travel, my back is really bad, so I get a lot of massages. So he owns some different, like companies. And also he had a misuse travel with him whenever he traveled. That was all a ruse and a cover to exploit women when they gave him massages. And that was all discovered after he died. After he died. Right. And like you said, there were witnesses, people who were abused, saying, whenever I thought about going forward, Ravi would tell me that if I do this, millions of souls hang in the balance. Wow. I mean, that's diabolical. That is dial. That. That is. That's vile stuff. That's vile.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah. And you wonder why more people don't come forward. Because they just platform these men. There's like hardly any accountability totally for. And, and then the, the women or the survivors, they get villainized. They're the problem. They're the ones trying to hurt a ministry. They're the ones trying to harm lost souls and keep them from going to heaven.
- [44:53]
B
And like, that's the case of Eileen Gray. John MacArthur. Right. Eileen Gray was married to one of John MacArthur's pastors on his staff. John Gray, I believe was his name. He was physically abusing both Eileen and her kids. She went to staff, to the church first, not to the police. John MacArthur. And the elders said, stay with your husband. And you went through a suffer, like how Christ suffered for a little while. Eventually, she refused. She left him. John MacArthur publicly shamed Eileen Gray from the pulpit under the pretense of church discipline and excommunicated her from the church. Turned out later on, John Gray was not just physically, but also was sexually abusing his children. He's currently serving time in prison for that exact thing as we speak. And John MacArthur never acknowledged, never repented for what he did to Eileen Gray. She was the victim. Her kids were victims. She suffered. She was excommunicated when the, when she need. When she needed the church most. The guy on staff was hailed as a hero. Even today, John MacArthur. We have emails of John MacArthur corresponding with John Gray in prison because John Gray runs a prison ministry there. Why would any woman want to come forward and admit that, that, that, that, that they're being abused when that is a too common situation, right, where the man's protected, the woman's kicked out.
- [46:18]
A
It's like, it's just like the, like the good old boys club. They just pat each other on the back. They keep elevating each other. Even the people that that platformed Mark Driscoll after all of his abuses came out. It's really just infuriating. But I do think it shows how it's not that difficult for an evangelical to go from the world that they are in to supporting someone like Donald Trump. It's not that big of a leap.
- [46:50]
B
100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. We do this to kind of help you understand why. I think a lot of us see it, but we're always kind of perplexed, like, what's the logic here? What's the framework? This is the framework. This is the connection, how you go from church world to celebrating Trump and calling him a good God fearing man. Because it's the same logic applied to a politician that they believe God has chosen to save the country even though he's doing the complete opposite, you know?
- [47:15]
A
Yeah, I think it's important. Justify the means.
- [47:17]
B
Yeah. I think it's also worth pointing out this is why the new evangelicals exist. Right? We help people find a better path forward in faith and find ways above ground, so to speak, out of the basement with free resources and scholarship and all. I mean, the. There's a TNE podcast, there's Advocacy Hour, there's this show. So there are organizations like TNE who are doing the work to try and help people discover that you can. There are very healthy, robust, justice oriented ways of being Christian. Right. That do not exist in spaces not where flawed people don't exist. Of course, broken people are everywhere, but where hopefully systems are a little more accountable than what we see in white evangelicalism. Goodness, anyway. Well, I think that's pretty good for now. I feel pretty content.
- [48:01]
A
Yeah.
- [48:02]
B
Talking about it.
- [48:02]
A
I mean, I don't feel content in the state of the world, but I feel content in the state of this episode.
- [48:07]
B
Thank you for clarifying. That's exactly what I meant to. To say. So I'm not content with the state of things, but this episode, I feel like we have reached the end. So. Oh my goodness. Friends, please make sure to leave a comment if you're watching this on YouTube and make sure to like this video. Subscribe to the channel if you're watching. If you're listening on podcast, thank you so much. Please make sure to leave us a rating and a review. If you are looking for a community, please check out TNE Connect. It's our private space for the new evangelicals with thousands of people, amazing resources, It's a great spot. You can go to the newevangelicals.com connect and of course make sure to follow tne on Instagram so you can keep up to date with all of the offerings. And there are many, so. All right, well, this was. I'm glad we did this episode. I'll just. I'll leave it like that.
- [48:51]
A
Me too.
- [48:52]
B
Cool. I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [48:54]
A
I'm April. A joy.
- [48:55]
B
See ya.
- [48:56]
A
Bye, Sam.