99. Debunking MAGA Claim that Conservative + Church = Best Mental Health

Summary

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The Tim & April Show, Ep. 99: Debunking the MAGA Claim that Conservative + Church = Best Mental Health

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)
Hosts: Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy
Date: March 31, 2026
Theme: Challenging the right-wing narrative that conservative churchgoers have superior mental health by examining the nuance behind recent statistics, personal stories, and the impact of church culture on mental wellness.

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Episode Overview

This episode responds to a surge of celebration among Christian nationalists and right-wing media over new mental health statistics: data showing that conservatives who attend church weekly are reportedly the least likely to be diagnosed with mental health conditions, while liberals who seldom attend church rank highest. Tim and April dissect this claim, exposing its flaws, discussing the stigmatization of mental health in conservative church cultures, and sharing their personal experiences to highlight the complexities hidden behind the numbers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Data and the Right-Wing Reaction

• [03:32] Tim introduces a widely circulated tweet by researcher Ryan Burge, highlighting data that shows “conservatives who attend church weekly are the least likely to have ever been diagnosed with a mental health condition.”
  • Notable Quote:
    • Tim [04:47]: “If you attend church weekly, that number drops for everyone… 8% of conservatives were told by a doctor or healthcare provider that they have a mental health condition.”
• Right-wing figures (e.g., Lila Rose, Ryan Visconti) are treating this as vindication that conservative Christianity ‘works’ for mental health.
• April immediately picks up on the critical qualifier: diagnosed.
  • April [05:28]: “They’re missing a key word, which is diagnosed.”

2. Satirical Comparisons Exposing the Flaw

• [06:44] – [08:02] April jokes about people who don’t visit the doctor being "least likely to be diagnosed" with physical health issues—or demons—illustrating the foolishness of surface interpretations.
  • April [07:46]: “People who don’t get tested for Covid—least likely to have Covid.”
• Tim: “Correlation does not always equal causation... and I think it’s a more compelling reason to why these stats happen compared to, ‘Jesus will set you free, just read the Bible and you’ll be good to go.’”

3. Personal Experiences with Mental Health and Church Culture

• [09:25] – [11:00] Tim describes his own mental health crisis, how church responses were inadequate, and recounts the pressure to treat scripture like magic spells.
  • Tim [09:12]: “I did read my Bible when I was having panic attacks...it did not work. It did not solve my problem of deep despair and panic attacks.”
• April shares her spouse Beecher’s struggle with gender dysphoria, being told to "pray away" mental distress, which only deepened depression and anxiety.
  • April [10:10]: “None of it worked. Yeah, none of it worked.”

4. Why the Stats are Misleading: Three Major Reasons

• [15:55] – [17:26] April outlines three core problems with the interpretation of the data:
  1. Ignorance is bliss: Less awareness of mental health issues (and external world problems) among conservative churchgoers.
  2. Stigma: Conservative churches actively stigmatize mental health, framing it as sin or spiritual weakness.
  3. Mislabeling: Mental health struggles are rebranded as “demonic attacks” or sinful behavior, rather than recognized as psychological conditions.
  • April [16:54]: “They do struggle with mental health, but they wouldn’t call it that.”

5. Anecdotes of Quiet Suffering and Church-Induced Anxiety

• April and Tim share stories of childhood and adolescent panic, fueled by rapture theology, fear of hell, and the constant suspicion of sinful thoughts.
  • April [18:36]: “I had an intense fear of being left behind from the rapture... clear on panic attack when I was 13...”
  • Tim [22:18]: “I remember... ‘what if when I die, I’m on the wrong side? I’m gonna burn in hell forever.’ I had a legit internal panic attack... I was so worried about not doing the wrong thing.”
• Describing how these experiences remain hidden because within these communities, admitting anxiety or fear is itself treated as a sign of sin or spiritual failing.

6. The Self-Fulfilling Trap: Striving for Transformation

• The hosts note a cycle where churchgoers are told that faith and Bible reading should ‘radically transform’ them, so if mental struggles persist, the blame rests on the individual for lacking faith or effort.
  • Tim [26:30]: “When you grow up hearing this, and you don’t feel radically transformed... it only makes it worse... like, what am I doing wrong?”
  • Religious community often means conformity, not real connection, leaving those who don’t “fit” feeling isolated and even more distressed.

7. Stigmatization, Demonization, and Inadequate ‘Counseling’

• Evangelical cultures are largely dismissive or pathologizing when it comes to mental health, discouraging therapy in favor of pastoral counseling or “deliverance.”
  • April [30:14]: “If you grow up in more charismatic spaces, mental health issues are classified as demons that need to be casted out.”
  • Tim [30:44]: “Greg Locke… said that if you had an autistic kid, that kid was demonic… Screw off, Greg.”

8. The Real Power of Healthy Religion

• [32:20] Tim cites research from Stanford anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann showing that healthy, loving religious communities can improve mental health outcomes:
  • Tim [34:20]: “The more that God is seen as judgmental and negative, the more mental health symptoms are reported. In contrast, people who represent their relationship with God as being loving and satisfying pray more and report fewer mental health symptoms.”
• Key: The effect depends on the quality of the religious environment and the image of God. Judgmental, punitive theology exacerbates distress; loving, open communities help.

9. Living with New Awareness—A Bittersweet Trade-Off

• [39:43] – [41:54] April reflects on mental health “before and after” leaving conservative evangelicalism:
  • As an evangelical, she felt ignorance was comforting: “I was more ignorant to a lot of things and things that were actually scary, I could write off as it doesn’t matter because God is in control.”
  • Now, she feels healthier internally but is much more anxious about the real world.
    • April [41:10]: “That makes it a lot more scarier. So that brings me actual anxiety. But it’s anxiety over real things.”
  • Tim adds: “I feel it in some way…so much more at peace with who I am. I don’t struggle with this crazy anxiety around sin…but I’m also much more aware… and I feel the weight and the pressure to do everything I can to make the world a better place.”

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Notable Quotes

• April [07:46]: “People who never go to the doctor—least likely to be diagnosed with cancer.”
• Tim [09:12]: “I did sit at 4am in the morning on my couch, wide awake, thinking that I’m in literal hell while repeating the words of Jesus, be anxious for nothing. And I will tell you it did not work.”
• April [16:54]: “They actually do struggle with mental health, but they wouldn’t call it that... I actually did deal with a lot of anxiety when I was a conservative evangelical, but I thought it was just my sin nature.”
• Tim [26:30]: “When you grow up hearing [‘the teachings of Jesus Christ will radically transform your life’], and you don’t feel radically transformed... it only makes it worse as you’re like, wait, what am I doing wrong?”
• April [31:49]: “It lingers even when you deconstruct a lot of those beliefs, it’s still like, your body remembers.”
• Tim [34:20]: “…the more that God is seen as judgmental and negative, the more mental health symptoms are reported. In contrast, people who represent their relationship with God as being loving and satisfying pray more and report fewer mental health symptoms.”
• April [41:10]: “I would rather be anxious over things that you actually need to be anxious about.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:32 – 05:28: Introduction to Ryan Burge’s tweet and the mental health data
• 06:44 – 08:02: Satirical analogies highlight diagnosis vs. actual prevalence
• 09:25 – 11:00: Tim and April’s personal mental health stories from within evangelicalism
• 15:55 – 17:26: Three reasons the statistic is misleading
• 18:36 – 22:18: Life-shaping anxiety from rapture/hell teaching in adolescence
• 24:23 – 27:59: The cycle of guilt, striving, and unattainable spiritual transformation
• 30:14 – 31:29: Demonizing mental health and the dangers of ‘Christian counseling’
• 32:20 – 34:20: Citing research—when healthy religion helps, and when it harms
• 39:43 – 41:54: Reflecting on the bittersweet awareness and peace after deconstruction

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Recap & Main Takeaways

• The celebrated statistic does not prove that conservative Christianity uniquely produces better mental health; it reflects denial, stigma, and a lack of diagnosis—not an absence of suffering.
• Evangelical subculture substitutes shame, demonization, and unscientific beliefs for mental health care, often worsening distress.
• Positive religious environments do benefit mental health—but only when they foster love, belonging, honesty, and a compassionate vision of God.
• Leaving harmful church environments often results in better internal peace, but brings greater empathy and painful awareness of injustice, anxiety that is rooted in reality.

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Listener Invitation

• Tim & April invite listeners to share their own stories in the comments, noting that community and honest conversation are key to healing and positive mental health outcomes.

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For more info, visit The New Evangelicals

(End of Summary)

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

you're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[B]

You may begin.

[A]

Oh, damn. Hi, everybody. Oh, wait, can you hear that?

[B]

Yes, I can hear that.

[A]

Feature. We can hear that.

[B]

The second I hit record. Feature. Starts vacuuming.

[A]

Feature. Feature. Are we starting from the top?

[B]

Take, take two. Well, no, I'm definitely gonna leave some of that part in. I mean, that's hilarious. But we will restart again. So take two. Go.

[A]

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

Now, we have no noise, no background.

[B]

I love like just the second I hit record. Boop.

[A]

Did you see that?

[B]

No. What happened?

[A]

Beacher just shot a balloon at me.

[B]

What is. Is Beecher okay? What are you guys fighting? Are you guys going through a time? You want to talk about it?

[A]

Beecher's actually leaving for work now, but they heard me talking about them, so they.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

We're here.

[B]

We're here. Look, friends, welcome into the show. Please make sure to like this video. Subscribe to the channel. All the things we're going to hop right into the topic. I think, I think this is worth talking about, April, because some, some, I guess old news dropped, that got repurposed, and Christian nationalists and right wing media are freaking out about the slam dunk case they have against progressive Christians like you and me, who are apparently just suffering under the strain of anxiety and depression at extraordinary rates.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, yes, yes.

[B]

Okay. Okay, so, so here's the thing. This, this, this tweet went out by Ryan Burge, but about two weeks ago. And by the way, Ryan Burge does great work. So this is, this is no shade against Ryan. Like, he's a. Is it, is the term. Sociologist. Yeah, researcher. He does data points. He wrote a new book. Like, he does great work. So he dropped this tweet and he said, conservatives who attend church weekly are the least likely to have ever been diagnosed with a mental health condition. Liberals who have low attendance are the most likely to have a diagnosis. And it's all the graphs of, like, how it breaks down between liberal, moderate, and conservatives and how often they attend religious services and then how often or the percentage of. Of. Of a doctor or healthcare provider telling them that they have a mental health condition. Okay, so for example, if you, if you're not seeing this because you're listening on podcast, 28% of liberals who never attend church say that, yes, a doctor or healthcare provider has given me a mental health. What did I say?

[A]

I think you said 20. You might have said 28. 28.

[B]

And then 22% of moderates, and then 15% of conservatives. Now if you attend church weekly, that number drops for everyone, 15% for liberals. It goes up for moderates, in this case, 16% for moderates. Then 8% of conservatives were told by a doctor or healthcare provider that they have a mental health condition. And so, as you can imagine, you know, people started doing their little victory lap, like, here's Lila Rose. New data shows conservative leaning Christians who attend church weekly are the least likely to report a mental health diagnosis. The teachings of Jesus Christ will radically transform your life for the better. Okay.

[A]

Also, they're missing a key word, which is diagnosed.

[B]

April, don't spoil it.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

The other one I want to read is from Ryan Visconti. Ryan Visconti is a. I would say he's like a charismatic, new apostolic reformation type of person. And he's a pastor. His church did the worship at America Fest. His worship band. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually met the guitarist when I was there. And he says in response to this take from Ryan Burge, what is obvious. I'll take stats I didn't need, but love to see for 500, Alex. And then Smiley face. So this is. So they're.

[A]

They're looking at this like a slam dunk. Like, you stupid libs with your stupid libs. Mental health problems.

[B]

Well, don't forget, I'm not sure about you, April, but I grew up on talk radio, and Michael Savage would always say that liberalism is a mental disorder. That was his big thing. He would say liberalism is a mental disorder. So that's kind of in the air of these spaces where they think that liberals are, like, you know, just mentally unwell. And so this data point apparently reinforces that belief.

[A]

I. I have so many thoughts on this.

[B]

Go ahead, April.

[A]

So many thoughts. Well, first, I would like to tell you another study.

[B]

Oh, go ahead.

[A]

That I'm making up in real time, but I'm pretty sure real. Okay, but did you know that people who do not attend church at all. We'll say liberals. Sure. Liberals who do not attend church. I think just people who don't attend church at all are the least likely to be possessed by a demon.

[B]

What? No.

[A]

Least likely to have demons.

[B]

No way. Are you sure?

[A]

Maybe the least likely to be told they have demons.

[B]

Mm. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Also. Also people who never go to the doctor. Least likely to be diagnosed with cancer.

[B]

Get out of here.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

okay.

[A]

People who don't get tested for Covid. Least likely to have Covid.

[B]

True, true. That.

[A]

Or be diagnosed.

[B]

Yeah. Or with, like, I guess with anything. Right. If you're not diagnosed with a heart condition, you just don't have it. You're not going to report. Yeah, you're there, just not there. High cholesterol. Poof. Goes away because you never got tested for it.

[A]

Which I think, like, falls into that phrase, ignorance is bliss. Right?

[B]

I think it does. And I think it's worth saying that obviously correlation does not always equal causation. Okay. We know that. And this can go either way. Certainly, April and I are not here to say that what we're gonna. Our rebuttal to this is definitely the answer, but I think it's a more compelling reason to why these stats happen compared to. Jesus will set you free. Just read the Bible and you'll be good to go. Cause I can tell you, April, as someone who went through a legitimate mental health crisis almost now, a decade ago, I'm not sure if I ever told you that story, but I went through a major. My brain broke. I didn't know what happened to me. Whoa. Moment for almost two years. I will tell you that as a good evangelical Christian who was devoted to, to the Christian conservative way of thinking, I did read my Bible when I was, when I was having panic attacks. I did sit at 4am in the morning on my couch, wide awake, thinking that I'm in literal hell while repeating the words of Jesus, be anxious for nothing. And I will tell you it did not work. It did not work. It did not. It did not solve my problem of deep despair and panic attacks.

[A]

Yeah, well, and that's very similar to my spouse, Beecher. They were, they were dealing with, they were suppressing themselves. They are out non binary now and they had always struggled with gender dysphoria, but did not know that. They were just told, you know, those desires are demonic and you just need to pray them away. But which that led to be pretty. Getting depressed and having the same kind of panic attacks and a very mental crisis like went to a very dark place and they were just told, read your Bible fast. You know, memorize scripture, go to church, pray more. None of it worked. Yeah, none of it worked.

[B]

Well, it turns out that maybe the Bible isn't like a magic book. It's not like, you know, a book of spells where you just say the right words and poof, magically, whatever issue you have just goes away. Right. And also I think that a lot of this, like, you know, victory lapping that they're doing, these, you know, Christian nationalist types, they really think that first off, liberals or moderates who are Christian don't read the Bible, or they think that, you know, that somehow we're just like not truly in the word, how they are. And therefore, that's why we have higher rates of being diagnosed with mental health conditions. It cannot be April. It cannot be that we see a doctor and that we also want robust health care around mental health issues that we might be suffering from. It can't be that. It's got to be that we just don't read the Bible enough.

[C]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But Building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or any. Anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[D]

Hi, my name is Emily. I'm from Cocoa, Florida, and I decided to donate and follow the NUVE Evangelical page because I believe in the work that they're doing. I think it's important to create a healthy environment where people are comfortable asking hard questions about, you know, their existence and their religion. And I'm spiritual, but not religious. But I do believe there's, like a fundamental truth. There is a fundamental reality where we all come from, where the universe comes from. Totally agree that there's something going on. You know what I mean? But beyond that, I don't know. I don't have the answers. And to me, that's given me a lot of freedom to kind of explore my humanity how I want, instead of being bogged down by the fear tactics of Christianity and them telling me that I'm wrong for simply having human experiences and human feelings and wanting to explore those. So, yeah, it's. We keep talking about it. If people are getting upset about it, that means we got to keep talking about it. Let's bridge the divide, communicate. Let's try to reduce our misunderstandings of each other and just all come together to realize we're all human. We're all here on this earth together. And instead of fighting about which religion is right, maybe we could come together to make the world we live on a better place. Why can't we make heaven on earth? Why are we all waiting to get off of earth?

[A]

Well, oh, my God. So there's. There are really multiple layers to this, because one, I think if you are aware at all at what's going on in this world, not, not like a conservative propaganda. Aware, like actually aware of what's happening in Iran, what's happening with our. Our immigrant neighbors, what's happening to our queer neighbors. If you have any sort of awareness, that's going to lead to anxiety.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, that's going to lead to. To sadness, and. Which is why they're demonizing empathy.

[B]

I was going to say, if you're going to have toxic empathy, you're going to feel some things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Kind of feel some emotions around what's going on.

[A]

Right. So. So there's. So there's that. So in that regard, I do think they are. They. A lot of conservative evangelicals are ignorant to a lot of the travesties that are happening. Same thing with climate change, which is like our bigger winter is coming problem that we can't even focus on right now because of so many other wild things that are happening. But I remember being conservative evangelical and literally not caring at all about climate change because I either one, didn't believe in it, depending on the day, thought it was just a liberal hoax, which a lot of them do believe. Or two, even if it was true, it doesn't matter because I believed in the Rapture and that Jesus was just going to come back and literally it wouldn't matter because God was gonna destroy the earth and build a new one anyway. So why waste our time caring for the Earth?

[B]

Do you remember back in the day when you and I were just Internet friends, we did a video on Ali Stuckey about this? Remember that skit that we did? Remember that she said that? Oh, my gosh, that's a deep cut. I gotta see if I can find it. But I mean, that was a couple of years ago. We did a skit on Ali Stuckey saying exactly that thing like, God's in control. God is sovereign all over all the seasons. So whatever's going to happen is going to happen. Of course, they don't really mean that because the second something doesn't go their way, suddenly they're under attack. They have to fight like hell to, you know, to fight for their rights. So they only believe that God's sovereign whenever it suits them. The second it affects them negatively, all of a sudden it's out of control. They're out of control. They have to restore order back to America.

[A]

Yeah. They got to legislate their version of morality. They got to take over the government. They got to storm the Capitol. Yeah, totally. The other thing. So, okay, I think there are three components to why this graph is misleading. And, and this is not to say that I do think there is some truth that going to church can help your mental health in the sense that if you, if you actually have, like, a healthy community and you have a healthy view of God, that can help your mental health. That. That is.

[B]

Yes, there's data on that that we'll get into for sure. Yeah.

[A]

So that's not to disregard that. But I think the overarch, like the overarching point that they're trying to make is incredibly misleading for three reason. Three reasons. One, ignorance is bliss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's number one. Two, they stigmatize mental health. They. Which. Which we'll get into. And I want to get my third point before I pull a Rick Perry and don't remember my third point.

[B]

Yeah, do that.

[A]

Do you remember that? Okay. The third point is that they actually, I think, do struggle with mental health, but they wouldn't call it that totally. They would call it a demonic attack or a satanic attack or they don't even realize that they're struggling with. With, like, help. Mental health issues. Like, for example, I actually did deal with a lot of anxiety when I was a conservative evangelical, but I thought it was just my sin nature.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Right. Like, I.

[B]

Look. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

No, go ahead, go ahead.

[B]

I was gonna say that. That, you know, similar to you looking back with the language I have now, I. I had anxiety my whole life. I mean, I. This is. This is an embarrassing story, but I've said it on the air before. My first kiss when I was 17, I was so anxious, I threw up after it. I literally threw up after my first kiss. I had so much anxiety about sitting and about, like, you know, going too far. I would. I mean, I had serious, like, physical manifestations of anxiety from early teenagers, teenage years all the way through, you know, my late 20s until I got the, The. The awareness or the, the education to call it what it was. Until then. I would call it my flesh. I would call it my sin nature. I would call it, you know, temptation. I would call it maybe, you know, like the enemy, whatever. I, I would use different language to describe the same thing. But I sure as heck wasn't going to some secular mental health therapist. I can only maybe go to a Christian counselor at most. That's like the most extreme, you know, a Christian counselor. There was no. No secular psychology in my language, in my world at all.

[A]

Well, yeah. And you have. I had an intense fear of being left behind from the rapture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would never admit that, because as soon as you admit it, then your youth pastor, your Sunday school teacher, your parents are like, well, what sin is in your life that would make you think you'd be left behind and you don't want to. And there was no sin. I was like, 12, you know, like. And I Had a clear on panic attack when I was 13 years old when I legit thought I was left behind because I couldn't find my family. I was on AOL instant messenger for like for too long. And my parents, my whole family with my dog went on a walk. And I've shared this story before but they didn't tell me and I suddenly I realized the house was quiet and I, I called for my parents, I called for my brothers. No one answered. I went into my parents room and there was folded clothes on their bed because my, I think my mom was doing laundry. But if you know, left behind Lore, you leave your clothes behind when you get raptured. So I thought oh no, I, that I think that's laundry. But I, who knows. And then I looked in the garage, the cars were still there, my mom's purse was still on the counter. I start going into a full on panic attack and I, I go outside, I call for them. I cannot find them. They had gone for on a long walk. But I'm literally like trying to convince myself as a 13 year old that dying by guillotine won't be that bad because it'll be quick and I can handle it and I can go to the military store. Like I'm literally planning it out and I am on, I am just trying to not have a full on panic. Like I'm trying to hold back tears because I'm like I cannot cry. I have to focus on survival.

[B]

And you're 13.

[A]

I was 13. Legit going through that. And then I do eventually find my family. They were like a mile away. They had just gone on a walk and they may have, they probably even said april, we're going on a walk. And I was just so into, you know, I was probably flirting with some boy from school on aim and I

[B]

literally thought the good old days.

[A]

I know I literally thought that I was left behind because I was quote unquote lusting after this boy. Which really was just like innocent flirting. Flirting.

[B]

Right. You would say lol a lot, you know. Exactly right.

[A]

And like I wasn't surprised. I was like of course I deserve to be left behind. I'm so disgusting and I'm so worthless. Which goes back to the whole original sin doctrine which also leads to terrible mental health if you think you're just disgusting and inherently evil when you're a kid. But let me just tell you, I, I usually tell that story in like a laughing matter because it is kind of funny and ridiculous. Especially now that I know how ridiculous belief in the rapture is. So I was interviewed for Shiny Happy People Season 2. And there was a point where I tell this story because they were. They were asking about just beliefs and, like, as a teenager in evangelical youth culture. And I started crying so hard reliving it, and they were asking me, like, well, how did that feel? And I, Like, I was so scared. And I remember calling Beecher afterwards, and I was like, I am so embarrassed that I cried so hard telling that story. But it just made me realize how traumatizing that actually was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was never. And I never told a soul until, like, I was a whole adult and could laugh about it because it was embarrassing. And I didn't. I didn't trust anyone to not be like, oh, what sin is in your life that would make you think that. So, like, there's so many things also fear of hell that you weren't. You weren't supposed to be scared of. But they were always like, well, you might want to say the sinner's prayer one more time just in case.

[B]

Deep fear about that. I mean, I remember. I remember driving home one. I was in my mid-20s, and it just kind of hit me. I was like, what if when I die, I'm on the wrong side? I'm gonna burn in hell forever. And I had, like, a legit. I didn't know what to call it at the time. I had, like a legit internal panic attack the whole way home. I was just like, my. I was sick to my stomach. I had so much fear. I was petrified that. Because, you know, when you hit, like, at least for me, when I hit my. My early 20s, my mid-20s, that's when you first start realizing that, like, you know, you're on. You're on a journey and that one day you're not going to be here. It's like your first taste of, like, mortality, Right? You start to realize, like, okay, you're not a teenager. You're not early 20s. Like, you're moving through life, right? And so I'm driving, and it just kind of hit me that one day I'm going to die. And I'm like, wait, okay, no matter what, this is going to happen one day. I'm not going to be here. What if when I die, I end up in hell forever? And the I. It was like, such a dark feeling. But, yeah, I mean, I had a lot of panic over that. A ton. I had panic over everything. I mean, everything. I was so worried about being holy and so worried about not doing the wrong thing. And if God would be mad at me. And I knew that there was grace, but also I knew about God's wrath, right? And certainly, like, you know, God had to, at some point, you know, be tired of me making the same mistakes over and over again. No matter how much I prayed or worshiped or read the Bible, something must have been wrong with me because you hear all these other stories. You hear the stories of, you know, I had a hard life. I, I was a, I was a violent person. I, I did a lot of drugs. And one day I met God and my chains just fell off. And I never went back to that lifestyle ever again. I'm hearing that and I'm like, that sounds great. I, I, I messed up every single day. I keep lusting, I can't stop. But this guy could be a drug addict and just stop because he prayed the right thing. Like, what am I missing? Like, you just have all these different comparisons, right? All that adds up into a world where you are so tense, but also you're kind of like, it's a weird, like, tug of war because you'll, what happens is you'll go to a church service, you'll have this mountaintop experience they call it, right? With God.

[A]

Very highly emotional.

[B]

Totally. Worship is great. You're so committed. How could you do the bad things that you do, Tim? But you're never going back to it, right? Super powerful. And the language is, God met us. God met us in this moment. The Holy Spirit impacted me. And then you go home and the next day or the day after, you fall back into whatever sin you think that you're, you're struggling with. And then you get all depressed thinking, wait, I swore that God met me on Sunday. How come I'm back in this rut on Tuesday? That creates a really weird mental health structure where you have these high highs and low lows, right?

[A]

And then you just feel that much more disgusting. And it almost confirms what you're being told about how you're inherently evil. And you're like, oh, I'm so gross. Like, I can't believe I wanted to watch Power Rangers again. You know, like, yeah, like, it's so, but also not even beyond just like fear of hell and fear of rapture. You second guess every single thought that you have because you're told that everything's either black or white, right? It's either of God or it is of Satan and evil. And so anytime I have a thought or an idea of something that I was going to do, I would question is that from God, is that from the devil or is that from me? And even if it was from me, since my flesh is inherently sinful, that's basically the devil, right? And so it's just like the mental yes, like exhaustion that you're constantly in, having to second guess every little thing. And you're, you're taught to not trust your own instincts. So you have, you're like told to basically squash yourself, who you are, every single day to fit into this cookie cutter version of what the evangelical church tells you is holy and godly. And it is so after years and years and years of being in that it really is debilitating. Like it is so paralyzing to who you are, you don't realize the mental hold it is having on you until you leave.

[B]

Exactly. In fact, I want to pull up this one from, from Lila again. So here's what she says at the end of this tweet where she talks about, you know, the, the data, the teachings of Jesus Christ will radically transform your life for the better. When you grow up in a world where you hear this kind of stuff and it's in context of things like this, of lower mental health or a lower diagnosis of mental health conditions. When you're a teenager or a young adult and you're doing this, you're reading the Bible, you believe the teachings and you don't feel radically transformed. You don't feel like it's working. Like how Lila or whatever other influencer is out there that's telling you this. When you feel like it's not working, it only makes it worse as you're like, wait, what am I doing wrong? Like, they haven't radically transformed me. Like, what am I missing? I keep, I keep. I have the same cycles over and over. So it just adds to the level of like confusion and despair. And the answer to that, again, not in every church, but the general theme you're going to find in the evangelical culture that you and I were a part of on either side of the charismatic or cessationist tracks, right? Is, well, you have to try harder. You know, are. I was taught, well, read, read your Bible more. Are, are you memorizing more scripture? I'm assuming April for you, maybe a part of it was, well, you have to pursue the Holy Spirit more. Like, are, are, are you really worshiping enough? Are you really in communication with God throughout the day? Are you living a spirit filled life? Right, but either way it's strive more. But then you're told that it's not by works that you're saved. It's by the grace of God.

[A]

It's the way by. Right.

[B]

So you're just like, wait, what is going on? Like, do I have to work harder or do I have to like, just pray in prayer and trust that God saved me? Like, what is it? You know?

[A]

Oh my God. The amount of times I was told like, you can't lose your salvation. We were not Baptist. We did not believe in eternal security. So they were like, well, no, we did a little bit. They're like, you can't lose your salvation because God has grace. But you, you might, you can lose your salvation.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Because I was like, dad. Well, dad or my youth pastor, I don't know who I asked. I was like, what if I do a sin right before the rapture? And they're like, I think God will have enough grace to cover that. But don't sin just in case he doesn't. And I'm like, that feels like that's not something to be so chill about. Like, what do you mean?

[B]

I mean, so I grew up more Calvinist. So, you know, you're taught that like God has predestined you so you can never lose your salvation. At the same time, how do you know that God predestined you? Like, what if God's playing an elaborate trick where you think that you're saved only to die? It turns out that you were never predestined. Right, okay, so for the audience out there who maybe didn't grow up this way, now maybe you understand why when we see people parade these stats around, we're not exactly like, yeah, guys, because your ideology works so well. No, because you don't have language for like typical mental health diagnoses. That actually is quite common. It's very. Again, not every church. There are plenty of people in the church world who will talk about anxiety and depression. And some might even recommend seeing a professional. Thank God for those churches. Like, if you're in a church that does that, great for you, but for many of us, no, Lang, depression doesn't exist. Go outside and touch grass. Anxiety. You're not trusting God enough. You know, whatever other issue you're having, it's an issue that God can fix. And again, if you need help, your pastor can counsel you. Right? Your pastor's the counselor or, or this, this Christian counselor in the church who has some kind of certification from some no name institution that certified them as a counselor. No professional help. For real. But. But you were sold the illusion that you had mental health professionals in the church.

[A]

Yeah, or in my case, if you go. If you grow up, more charismatic spaces meant, like, legit mental health, like, issues are just classified as demons that need to be casted out. Like anxiety, just a demon. Depression, just a demon. And we've even seen, like, Greg Locke for. For instance, he went off and said that if you were. Had an autistic kid, that kid was demonic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, so harmful. And like, as a parent of an.

[B]

Of an autistic child, I have very dehumanizing words for that, man. I mean, like, screw off, Greg. Screw off.

[A]

And not if you were queer, like, gay, or like, any capacity. I almost, like, double that totally. Because then you're told, like. Because I. I don't know if your churches were like this, but basically premarital sex was like, the worst thing you can do. Oh, wait, no. Actually being gay, that's the worst thing you could ever do. Like, even though you can't help whether you're gay or not because you're just born that way. So like, the. The mental, like, the way that it makes you feel worthless, because when you're taught you're worthless, you're taught your best day is a filthy rag to God.

[B]

It means nothing. It means nothing.

[A]

Right? Like, you at your best is still disgusting.

[B]

It's the dirt. Just rub it in.

[A]

Yeah. And when you grow up believing that about yourself, like, that is so hard to unlearn. Like, I can't tell you even to this day, it is hard for me to trust my own instincts. I've gotten a lot better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like. And like, I have so. And I just have anxiety in general. One, because of the state of the world, which. That's a. That's a whole other thing. But, like, even just like, the way I second guess, is my alarm set? I'll check it like, 12 times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To make. Even though I know it's set, it's like the. The fear. I have such a fear of doing something wrong because of how I was raised.

[B]

100%.

[A]

It lingers even when you deconstruct a lot of those beliefs, it's still like, your body remembers.

[B]

Yes. Yes, 100%. So here's the thing, though, and I think. Here's the nuance that is worth covering in this episode is that mental health outcomes actually can be positively impacted by healthy religiosity. In fact, there's a lot of data, and I don't mean Christian data, I mean secular data, research that shows healthy religiosity actually does increase mental health outcomes. So there is something to be said for people having ritual, for people having community. Because think about what healthy religion will offer, right? Healthy religion offers, first off, a sense of purpose. It offers a sense of something bigger than yourself. It offers a sense of belonging. It offers a sense of rhythm and ritual, right? It offers a sense of the transcendent and in a healthy environment. It offers the idea that there's a God who loves you deeply and cares about you. Right? Like that's a. Those are positive things. Those are all things that humans really benefit from. And so we're definitely not saying that religion as a whole is, is inherently bad. In fact, I think, April, I'm not sure about you, but every now and then I get like, I get the atheists on my channel who will comment, like, all religion is bs. This is just all fairy tale stuff. And honestly, I understand why they would say that given our current cultural moment. But it's frankly such an ignorant take on the idea of religion in general because it's so much more complicated than that. And so I wanted to, I wanted to pull this up, actually. This is from. Okay, here it is. So. So this is an article from November 13, 2020 from the Stanford Report. Religious faith can lead to positive mental health benefits, writes Stanford anthropologist. And this is from Tanya Lorman. And she says something down here. I think it's so important, she says. This research has repeatedly shown that people of faith faith report feeling better and healthier. One of the most striking findings in social epidemiology, Lorman notes, is that religious involvement with God is better for your body in terms of immune functions and reducing loneliness. One explanation of this, she writes, is that for those with an intense faith, God becomes a social relationship. MRI results indicate that in terms of brain function, talking to God resembles conversing with a friend. That makes a lot of sense. But the nature of that relationship is also key in terms of health. The more that God is seen as judgmental and negative, the more mental health symptoms are reported. In contrast, people who represent their relationship with God as being loving and satisfying pray more and report fewer mental health symptoms. The data suggests that when it's a good relationship, it's better for the body. According to Lohrman, so or Luhrmann. So that's important, right? Like, it's not about just being religious, it's about what kind of God have you made in your head? What kind of version of God do you communicate with if you're talking to a God that is going to burn most of the most of humanity to hell forever? Because God is just and loving. And also God saves you by grace, but also you have to strive harder. And also God loves you, but also hates your sin, you're going to create this contract of God that is incredibly judgmental and focused on every little action that you do in a judgmental way. That's not going to help your mental health outcomes. Add that, Add, add to that a culture that will not talk about mental health. And I understand how people in these spaces don't report mental health health problems, because where are you going to report it to? Right. So I think that that's a very important point of the conversation. Healthy views of God are positive for mental health outcomes, but negative views of God have the inverse effect.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's important too, like a lot of these evangelical churches that talk about community and building community, I think if you can find genuine community that is really good for your mental health, regardless of whether it's religious community or not. But so many of these churches, actually, what they mean is conformity. And so if you are someone that falls outside what the church deems, quote, unquote, normal, it is actually a very lonely, it can be very lonely and isolating experience to be going to small groups and all these churches and seeing all these other people appear like they're, like everything's working for them, that they've got it all figured out, that God clearly loves them because they're being blessed and they're being, you know, they seem to have it all together. And then inwardly you are just dying and you feel even worse because the thing that you struggle with, no one, either no one talks about or it's demonized. And you have no place to actually be real and vulnerable because of how it, like, mental health is just stigmatized and literally demonized.

[B]

100%. 100%. I would imagine many people who are listening to this are like, yes and amen. I think, I think a lot of our audience is exvangelical or grew up similar to how we did April. And like, it is the damage that world does again when it's not done in a healthy way. I'm sure people can write in and say, hey, my church actually deals with mental health really positively. That's great. And we're not talking about those churches. We're talking about this culture that really suppresses, frankly, normal human behavior and puts this God veneer over it, where this God figure is judging you for everything. And things that are normal are inherently sinful and things that, you know, and mental health struggles that again, are quite common become These taboos that you just have to ignore and pray harder about or confide in your pastor slightly so he'll give you more verses to meditate on. And if that doesn't work, you're doing something wrong. Right. It's not us, it's not our theology, it's you. Something's wrong with you. That creates a very dark cycle, frankly. And I think when people then deconstruct, so to speak, and then they get kicked out of their churches because they're too liberal and it's, it really compounds. Right. Because you just wonder, like, wait, I was doing everything the best I could. I came to different conclusions about certain issues regarding politics maybe or culture war issues. You guys kicked me out. Now what do I do with this? Now what do I do with this horrible version of Christianity that I've been given alone, apart from community, excommunicated. Now what? Right? It creates really negative outcomes.

[A]

Yeah. And even beyond mental health. Like I remember, I. So I grew up more charismatic and we believed in faith healing and all that stuff. And my dad died of cancer when I was in my early 20s. And I went to see Bill Johnson of Bethel speak, like probably six months after my dad had died, which I totally believed that he would, that God was going to heal my dad, and then he didn't. And basically it was this teaching of if God didn't give you your healing, it's because of something wrong you did. And that is just so. That is such a damaging way to live and to think. Like, it's just so. It's so harmful in so many ways.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I think that's good enough. I don't think we need to belabor the point. I think that we had to respond to that, though. I mean, I'm not going to let these Christian nationalists get away with spinning this data as like somehow a win for their side when they.

[A]

I want to make one. Can I make one last point?

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

I do think it's your show. Well, it's your show too.

[B]

It's our show.

[A]

It's our show. I think that I feel like some things have kind of flip flopped. Like in many ways I. In some ways I was happier when I was conservative evangelical because I was just more ignorant to a lot of things and things that I, that were actually, were actually scary, I could write off as it doesn't matter because God is in control. But I was internally struggling, but I wasn't aware of how much I was struggling because you're not taught any language for that. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas now internally, I'm actually at a much happier, healthier place. Like, I feel more internal peace, like, in my personal life. Like, I, like, my mental health is a lot better in regards to, like, I don't believe I'm inherently evil and that. That alone changes a lot for the better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's a little bit of a trade off and that now I'm much more aware of a lot of the actual scary things that are happening in the world. And I can't just say, you know, like, I, like, I obviously, I believe in God, but I don't. I mean, not to get a theological point, but I. I just can't say, like, oh, it doesn't matter because God's gonna fix it.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Like, I believe that we are responsible.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

For fixing our own problems in. In a lot of cases. And so that makes it a lot more scarier. So that. That brings me actual anxiety. But it's anxiety over real things.

[B]

Right. Like, the responsibility is on us now. It's not on. On this, on this God figure who we can't see or touch. Right. It's. It's almost like we're the answer to our own prayers. Right. Like, we keep praying, God, do something. Do something. Do something about. About gun control. And I feel like God's like, go ahead. Like, do something about gun control. Like, you guys have the power to stop these things. Right? So, yes, I feel the same way where it is. I feel it in some way. So much more at peace with who I am. I don't struggle with, like, this crazy anxiety around sin. That's not a thing. But I'm also much more aware of what's happening. I feel the weight and the pressure to do everything I can with the one life I have to make the world a better place, especially in the face of Christian fascism. Right. So I'm with you 100%, which I

[A]

would rather be anxious over things that you actually need to be anxious about.

[B]

Yeah, totally, totally, totally. All right, friends. Well, hey, thanks so much for tuning in. We'd love your thoughts in the comments if you have experienced a similar version of the Christian faith that we did. So make sure to leave a comment there and subscribe to the channel. I think we're close to 15,000 subs. I think we're getting there. We're on the path. So nice. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. If you're listening on podcast, please make sure to give this episode a rating and a review. We will see you all on Thursday. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Lajoy. Goodbye now.