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- [00:00]
Danielle Gronich
My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Twitter terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be. To be.
- [00:36]
Tessa Zolli
Hey guys, welcome to the treatment room. As you may know, I'm your host, Tessa Zolli. I'm a licensed esthetician, acne specialist, and certified nutrition coach. But today is so special because we have two fellow health and acne experts with us, Danielle and Kaylee. I got to interview them a couple of years ago, but since then their brand has completely blown up. So, guys, welcome to the show. We would love to hear a little bit about you individually and the origin story of Clear Stem.
- [01:12]
Danielle Gronich
Tess, I first just wanted to thank you. Like, you're one of our OGs. You've been with us for so long, like we've just known you for so long and you brought us on your podcast early on and here we all are a few years later and it's always just really fun. Like any partners, including yourself, that we've just known for so long, it's always really fun just to see all the transitions and involvement and growth we all go through. So Danielle and I both follow you, we love you and it's just been really beautiful to see and we love these little fun check ins we get to have or like whether it's seeing you at events or podcasts or like catch ups or just seeing your life on social and this is just really fun. So thank you.
- [01:50]
Tessa Zolli
Thank you. I feel so cool that I get to say, I know you guys. I see you popping up on TikTok all the time. You guys are in Erewhon now. You are just doing so many awesome things and this is just such a unique example of a brand that's grown so organically.
- [02:07]
Kaylee
Thank you so much. We appreciate that. We work our asses off. Yes.
- [02:13]
Tessa Zolli
Imagine how many podcasts you do.
- [02:16]
Danielle Gronich
A lot.
- [02:17]
Kaylee
We've been on like well over 100 at this point. But it's great though to be with fellow acne specialists because there's so much information and the customer, like the client, the girl who's suffering with acne, like, she needs to know that people understand Her. And I don't mean to be exclusive of the men, too, but, you know, women struggle with acne progressively throughout their life. You know, it just recurs more for us too. So, like, having more people in their corner who understand them, like, is so exciting. So we're really pumped for this episode because we know you're a wealth of knowledge as well.
- [02:52]
Tessa Zolli
Thank you.
- [02:53]
Danielle Gronich
Yes.
- [02:53]
Tessa Zolli
I want to ask you guys, like, some high level questions that I know other estheticians listening might be thinking too. Yeah, yeah. And you guys have educated us so much as a community already. Like, seriously, I think we know a lot more about acne because of you guys, so. Yeah. Well, to start, just tell us a little bit for those who. Who aren't familiar about how Clear STEM started and both. Both of your backgrounds.
- [03:19]
Kaylee
Sure, sure. So I'm Danielle Gronich, the. The acne guru. I am the owner of San Diego Acne Clinic. I've had that clinic for over 10 years now. And basically I got into the acne world and became an acne specialist because of my own ongoing struggle. So acne, there's a genetic predisposition for those who are prone to breaking out. And it, you know, usually it's on, like, one side of the family, right? Like someone's mom or dad will have broken out. Well, both my parents broke out. Every adult in my family on both sides has, like, struggled with, like, grade four cystic acne, like, well into adulthood. So I never stood the chance. It got really bad for me when I went off to college. Basically, that's when I started wearing makeup. I got on a birth control. I was in the NuvaRing and that broke me out like crazy. So makeup, birth control, partying, shitty dorm food. Like, college was just like the perfect storm. My acne got insane and it was like grade four cystic acne on my face, neck, chest, back, you name it. Like, back of my thighs, like, literally everywhere. It's very debilitating. And at the time I was actually studying, I was going to go into pre med. I've always been fascinated with the human body. I studied genetics, biology, immunology, and come from, like, kind of a family of scientists, right? So I was just, like, obsessed. I, like, I wanted to be in medicine. And at the time, my acne was so bad, I was taking these classes and I would show up to my appointments with basic questions. Like, I notice when I eat this, my skin reacts like this. Could there be a correlation? And it's simple stuff. Like when I have dairy, I feel like my skin Breaks out or when I have alcohol, I feel like I break out. What could that be? Like, I'm talking basic questions. And that conversation was not welcome. And it's not. We don't want to, like, make, you know, any derms hearing this, feel bad. It was more just like they weren't allowed to have that conversation because there were no studies around it. So basically they were handcuffed to just writing me prescription after prescription after prescription. So I spent years on antibiotics, years on spironolactone, off and on. I spent, God, almost two years of my life on Accutane. Three separate rounds of Accutane, my acne would come right back every single time. Years and years on antibiotics. And when they don't work, you go to a stronger one. You try it longer. We switched my birth control a couple times. We all know how much. How fun that is. And, like, after three rounds of Accutane, my acne would come right back every single time. And I know now that it was because of poor clogging ingredients in the products I was using. And it was tied to a couple of things in my diet, particularly eggs. So, you know, basically, I'm 30 at this time, and the third round of Accutane has failed. And by the way, at that time, people were like, you should be growing out of it soon. And I'm like, well, clearly I'm not. So, you know, and that's a myth we can talk about later as well. So, yeah, I'm almost 30, just finished the third round of Accutane. My acne has come right back within a couple of months. And I was like, f this, I'll figure it out myself. So I was in the corporate world at the time. I was doing consulting, and I started looking for ways to access information to learn about my skills, skin. And you could only take classes. Like, you know, like, PCA has their classes and, like, educational stuff. I couldn't even sign up for anything unless I was an esthetician or in school. So I was like, okay, I will enroll in school. Whatever. Whatever it takes. So I enrolled in school at night. I had no plans to leave my career. But while I was in school, I realized that, like, treating acne and treating the skin was the medical profession I had always wanted but didn't know existed. Because. Because of my medication. Medication. Because of my medication situation and not being able to get anywhere to the root causes. That's what made me not want to go through with medical school. I was like, if this is our medical system, I don't want any part in this. So I was sad to pivot from what I thought was my dream career. But full circle, 10 years later, I was like, wow. Treating acne and having a skin clinic would be the medical profession I'd always kind of dreamed of. So it was a great moment just 10 years later. So I shadowed under all the top people in San Diego. I just became an intern again. I went from, you know, a six figure corporate job to becoming an unpaid intern just to learn and sponge everything I could. So I worked at a med spa for about a year and a half. I did all therapy. I helped with injectables, I helped, I did microneedling a ton. I did all the really advanced treatments and worked alongside nurses to learn a lot more about the esthetic industry. And then I worked at a few other places and, you know, did all the peels, did all the hydrafacial, did all the everything right. And then I started San Diego Acne Clinic. And I kept it simple. San Diego acne, that's all we do. We, I don't know, I don't have a waxer machine. I don't even have tweezers in the the place. Like all we do is fix acne, right? So as you can imagine, because of the name, the SEO was good. It grew really quickly. And because that was my focus, I became really, really, really an expert really quickly. So developed a intellectual property kind of checklist, like my IP checklist for what I felt mattered. And it was using principles from other lines that had been established. You know, shout out to Faith's reality. They were, they're a really, really good line and I still use them for a lot of my teenage clients. So there was some stuff that I felt was missing from that and some stuff that in my biology classes and some other things that I had learned over the years that I felt were more important and from my own education. So I tweaked everything and came up with my own checklist. And it wound up being incredibly effective. So about a year into that business, I met Kaylee as a patient and that's when, like the seeds of clear stem really got planted. So she can tell you more about her experience and what that was that we scaled.
- [08:42]
Danielle Gronich
So when I met Danielle, this was, gosh, 10 years ago at this point point I had decided to get off birth control. I was working a full time corporate job. I've always been really passionate about health and wellness in general. Just with my own health issues I struggled with in high school and college. It just left Me always questioning what I was putting in my body. So after college I went back and went through a nutrition program, so became a published nutritionist, also became an integrative health practitioner as well. And I decided to get off birth control, get off the anti anxiety medication that I was on. And acne appeared shortly after. Within about six months my skin freaked out, my body freaked out, I was rapidly losing weight, I was losing hair, everything I ate made me sick. And then what felt like out of nowhere was bright red inflamed cystic acne of both sides of my cheek down my neck. And I'd never dealt with aggressive acne. I dealt with very standard teenage acne and like breaking out right before my period. So what we deem as quote normal in today's society, as we know and as we educate about clear stem, you don't have to have quote normal breakouts on a monthly basis. There's so much you can do to also mitigate that and be aware of with poor cloggers and understanding your body the week before your period and different things that you can do to help support your body. Which we educate a ton on. But of course I didn't know any of this and I also didn't know how to safely get off birth control. We also educate a ton about that which we can always jump into in this podcast of how to support detox pathways and making sure the lymphatic system is moving. It's really simple things. It doesn't even cost you anything to help properly get off birth control. It's more some, just some lifestyle shifts and things to be aware of. But of course this was over 10 years ago. I had no idea about any of this. Stories didn't exist on Instagram, videos didn't exist on Instagram, no one was talking about this. And at the time I was working a full time corporate job. I also had a podcast and a blog. I loved making very simple wellness things more digestible and accessible to people. I was in different networks of people, we were always talking about wellness things, what the importance of what you're putting in your body and the effects that it has. But I didn't feel like anyone was talking about this on a mass scale yet. So when I start going through all of this, you know, I'm just putting myself through self created protocols, right? I'm trying different diets, elimination diets, placebo diets, low fodmap. I did every single protocol detoxes you can possibly imagine. No change in my skin. I went the super super super what I thought. Holistic quote, clean route. We now know that clean doesn't mean acne safe. I was just googling things and seeing what I found on Pinterest at the time. And it was like, rub coconut oil all over your face, chop raw garlic in half and rub that on your breakouts. Which ended up actually burning my breakouts. I got like garlic burns on my face because the oil from it was so strong. I created so many like micro burns on my face from apple, like too harsh of apple, cider vinegar, lemon juice stained my face orange because of turmeric. Like, you name it. Then I was like, okay, we're not doing that. So then I just was like, I will just research and use anything that markets towards acne. So I tried everything in the clean space. I tried everything in the not so clean space, you name it, upwards from like drugstore things to $300 serums that would claim it would solve my acne. Absolutely nothing worked. When I felt like I had done everything was like, all right, I guess I have to go to the doctors. So I went to multiple primary care doctors because I kept expecting to hear another answer or expect expecting that one would connect with me and really hear what I was going through. Every doctor, I was made to feel like I was over exaggerating, like they, they didn't understand and see that I had pustules covering my face. And they said, just go back on birth control over and over and over again. And when I express that I didn't want to, I felt very bullied into going back on. This was just my experience. I know not every doctor is like that, but I, you know, we do hear from women a lot that they share the same experience. When I didn't want to do that, antibiotics was the answer. I was actually in one of my nutrition programs at the time. I'm like, this is so weird. Antibiotics is like contradicting every single thing that I'm learning about how to build up the gut and acne. So, like, this doesn't feel right. So then I start to go to multiple different dermatologists again, expecting to hear different answers. And because my acne was so severe, they weren't even going the spironolactone route. They were just jumping right to Accutane. And at first I didn't want to do it, and then it just kept getting worse. And I truly thought, I can't live like this. Like, when will this end? Every single thing that I've done has not helped it. And truly I felt like I had done everything. And so I was like, I guess, I guess I have to go on it. Like, I didn't want to leave the house. I was like packing on layers of makeup. I was not hanging out with friends and this had almost been a year at this point point. So I was like, okay, I guess I have to go on it. So I started the process. Anyone who's listening knows it takes 30 days to get on Accutane because you have to take those two pregnancy tests 30 days apart before we can officially go on it. So in that 30 day period of time, my mom is like begging me. She's like, please don't. Like, I know it's bad, I know it's bad, but please don't go on Accutane. Like, my mom's a chemist and she's really passionate about medication and you know when to use medication, when not to. She's definitely not extreme on either side, but she's very aware of effects that it has and she's just begging me not to go on it. And thank God. One last Google search above. San Diego Acne Clinic met with Danielle. We had a three hour session. The first I met her because the first hour and a half we dove in to and figured out all of my acne triggers. I had about 12 acne triggers going on. We outline all of these within Clearsome Education what Danielle was talking about earlier, her IP with San Diego Acne Clinic that she's developed. We scaled into Clear STEM to help the masses understand this as well. And if anyone listens to one of our master classes or goes through our quiz on our website or like watches any of our masterclass posts videos as well. We go through all of these as if we're one on one with you and we'll talk about some today. But basically I had no idea about poor clogging ingredients. I was using so many things that had pork, like ingredients like hair care, skin care, makeup, you name it. There were certain foods that I was eating that were even deemed healthy foods that were all triggering my acne. I was taking so many supplements and there's very specific supplements that can trigger acne. Again, we'll talk about all of these. We found all 12 going on. I eliminated all of them. I learned how to properly exfoliate. I had no idea about exfoliation or because for a while exfoliation was deemed evil due to really harsh products that a lot of us did as teenagers. I had no idea about healthy exfoliation and Danielle put me on four products and I removed all acne triggers. My skin was completely clear with no scar damage in two months. And that really inspired clear stem from there. Truly, we had everything that Danielle had learned through her clinic and we knew that we could create the products that could make the change in people's skin, but also provide the education to the masses that people just didn't have access to.
- [16:26]
Kaylee
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- [16:58]
Tessa Zolli
What I love about your brand, you guys, is I feel like you took everything that was wrong about acne and how it was treated. There was lack of information, there wasn't good access to information or treatments. And you guys have created this amazing community. So much education, products, treatments. And I feel like what's interesting about today is that people have so much at their fingertips, whereas, like maybe our generation, we had nothing. We had to resort to the lemon on our face and all these DIY things. But what are you guys seeing today as like some of the big causes for acne?
- [17:42]
Kaylee
Well, there's a ton of them. So the vitamins that can cause acne, this is, this affects so many people. Like, I want to list off the triggers in proportion to how acne causing they are and how many people they're probably affecting. So number one topic is vitamins. Everyone's on some kind of supplement, whether it's your basic multi or you're into the more biohackery stuff. You know, you've got your creatine, your pre workout, your greens, your this, your probiotic. Like everyone's taking something. A lot of us are taking multiple things. So we're getting a lot of us. Too much B12. Too much B12 can. It does a couple things. It can spike testosterone and it creates like hormonal acne along the jaw, right where everyone will tell you this is the hormonal acne zone. But it is messing with your hormones, the vitamins you're taking. So yes, it's hormonal acne caused by vitamins. So B12 is the number one thing because the dosages that it comes in are astronomical. We see in a prenatal vitamin that had 275,000% RGV. That's obscene, right? And energy drinks like Celsius have a lot of it. Nootropics, focus gummies. Anything marketed as energy or marketed as focus or energy products has a shit ton of B12, pardon my French, but it's, it's astronomical dosage. And as with everything, the devil's in the dosage. So you don't want to be deficient in B12. And that is a legitimate issue for call it like vegans and vegetarians. So they'll need to supplement strategically, but knowing the dosage is critical. So number one thing, look at all of your greens powders, look at all of your energy stuff, any beverages that you're having throughout the day. B12 is added to a lot of things. So just look for your nutrition, look for that in your nutrition labels. We recommend that people stay under 400% RDV unless specifically advised by their doctor because they are, their blood work showed that they were deficient and then from there they can scale up. But if you start taking something that's like, you know, 5,000% RDV, which is the normal amount in like a B B complex supplement, a lot of people start breaking out. It'll be on the jaw, it'll be in the lower face where you would have a beard, and it'll go down the neck. It's very specific. It doesn't really affect the forehead too much, but it will get you along the jaw. The other one is biotin. So biotin is a micronutrient. We don't need a ton of it, but can stimulate keratinization. So extra keratin protein, which can clog our pores. It can also compete and deplete your vitamin B5, which is really important. So biotin is in a ton of the hair, skin and nails, gummies. If you take something for hair, skin and nails, it will have like 10,000% of biotin. That's where the problem is. If it's in your multi and it's only a couple hundred percent, you're okay. It's when you start taking it in supplement form that it's generally just too high of an amount. And you'll notice it because you'll get a lot of little bumps everywhere. Little bumps will appear on your arm, arm, little bumps just kind of coming on your face, your chest possibly, and it'll just be like death by a thousand little bumps. So that, that's biotin and then too much vitamin D, to be honest, and I know that's contradictory, most People are contradictory to what we're generally told for acne is what I mean. And most people generally are deficient because we're not getting enough sunshine. So we're always telling people, go, be outside, take your meetings walking, prioritize your sunshine. We even named our spf. You are Sunshine because like we're big on getting your vitamin D naturally. But when you take too much vitamin D, like you say your, your blood work comes back, you're deficient just like everyone else. Your doctor says take vitamin D, you start taking it. And if it's a standalone vitamin D, it generally has about 600 to 800% RDP. So it's six to eight times what you'd normally be getting in a day. And it's in supplement form, so it hits you very quickly. It's not like it's from your food where it's being steadily broken down. So that. And plus it's usually doesn't have the right CO factors like, like magnesium and vitamin K2. And what else does it need? It needs a couple other CO factors, but it generally doesn't have the, the things that you need to properly metabolize it. And it's in too much of a dose in one single shot. So if you. And it builds up in time because it's fat soluble. So when you have too much vitamin D, it can raise testosterone and mimic hormonal acne. And I see it in the goatee, like from the corners of your lips down. So excess vitamin D can give you cystic acne right on your chin where you'd have a goatee. So if you're noticing that, like, what the hell is this from? I don't have dairy. I don't know what this is from. Check to see if you're getting more than like 200% RDV in your vitamin D stuff. And you can test this all by eliminating it for a month. And then you see a reduction in inflammation and then you can be like, okay. Then you reintroduce it slowly at an appropriate dose and you can dose down or you can do it like every third day or what, what have you. Right. So getting your right dosage is, is the thing that we aim for people to do. The other one that can actually trigger hormonal acne is too much zinc. We see this every year during cold and flu season. I'm sure you can relate. During cold and flu season, everyone starts taking zinc. During COVID we all saw it too. And zinc in higher amounts can spike testosterone. And if it's A standalone zinc supplement, it generally has 3x what you would normally be getting. So getting it through your food, fantastic. Taking it in a standalone supplement, that's where it can be too much. And I see it break people out around the mouth. It's almost like this mustache acne. It's really, really strange. I don't know why it does it in those patterns, but I have seen it consistently thousands of times for the past decade. So those are the four that can break people out. Other ones can to like Ashwagandha if it's in too high of an amount, can for some people, can spike testosterone for some people. But the four that we mentioned, vitamin B12, vitamin, excess vitamin D, excess biotin and excess zinc, those are the ones that are getting people most of the time.
- [23:29]
Danielle Gronich
I do want to take a moment too just to talk about the zinc for a second because zinc is so, so important for skin health and you'll see a ton of content whether it's on TikTok or Instagram. And people will be creating content around saying here are the supplements for skin. Zinc is always listed in there. And here lies a bit of a contradictory problem. Like you google it too. What supplements are great for acne? Zinc is one of the first ones to come up, so it is important for skin health. But again, the devil is in the dosage. And where you can get the most benefits of zinc for your skin is actually through food sources rather than taking a standalone zinc supplement. Because just like vitamin D, zinc also needs cofactors. And just because you're deficient in zinc, it doesn't actually mean adding in more zinc is the proper thing to do. There's deeper reasons why beyond that. So we actually love, love, love pumpkin seed oil as a great source of both zinc and it has magnesium in it. And one of our most recent launches is our good seed supplement. It helps with estrogen support, it helps with obviously you getting the zinc in. It helps with immunity liver infection as well. Like a lot of people who go through our blood work testing for acne, we're always seeing underlying infections for acne. So it can be really supportive. But the pumpkin seed again has the zinc, it has those essential fatty acids, has vitamin E in it, it can help with blood sugar and lipid profiles. But that is an amazing, amazing way to get zinc in through that pumpkin seed oil. Again, we have it in our good seeds or you can get a standalone but you have to make sure it's cold pressed. But that can just be amazing for your skin rather than going to a standalone zinc supplement, which we are just not fans of in general. We don't think it's really supportive to the body in the best way possible.
- [25:27]
Kaylee
Yeah. And to Kayleigh's point, getting your blood work done. Everyone is already paying for their insurance. So a lot of people in the acne community have lost faith in the medical system for the same reasons I explained earlier. And they, like, don't trust going to their derm anymore because they're just getting thrown retin a and talking into Accutane and they're just like, that's not my solution. So a lot of people have just written off their health care as part of their. Their toolkit. I want to encourage people you're paying for your. Your health insurance. Get your blood work done, insist that they run micronutrient panels or whatever your doctor wants to call it, get your labs done so you can see exactly what vitamins you are actually deficient in and have them do it like, every six months. That is a fantastic springboard for understanding how to properly supplement, because zinc is important for skin, but only if you're deficient. If you're deficient, it throws off your progesterone and other things. But if you're not deficient and then you supplement, it's going to make it worse. And then you just think like, oh, my God, I'm just. I'm struggling so much that my only solution is Accutane. And then you just go down that rabbit hole and then the acne comes back because the root causes were never understood. So we're big proponents of blood work, whether it's with us or just getting it done through the insurance you're already paying for.
- [26:42]
Tessa Zolli
I feel like the supplements are so sneaky because a lot of people are taking them because they want to feel healthy, but there's such nuance with it, and I think we have to be a lot more careful with it than, you know, we kind of previously thought. Another one you mentioned, Danielle, is, is creatine. And I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts on that, because I think I've seen that becoming something that's really popular, especially for those who are into health and fitness. Are there any implications for acne?
- [27:16]
Kaylee
There are implications. Dosage and quality is everything. I think some people. So in my clinic, I definitely ask people if they have felt like it broke them out. And some people will say yes. And then I look at it and it's in a blend that has a bunch of other stuff, and the blend is suspect. So sourcing is really important. The blend overall, pure creatine I think is really helpful for people as long as they don't have pcos. I think some people can do it in a reasonable dosage and they may or may not break out from it. If you're already a high testosterone person or have like mild pcos, that's when I've seen it really break people out. Everyone's going to be a little different with creatine. I personally know that it's a, it's a possible trigger and I am so acne prone because how acne prone you are also matters with what you're willing to experience, experiment with. I know that it's probably going to break me out. I'm probably going to get cysts on my back if I do that and that's not worth it for me. So I have not personally tried it, but I do know that it's very hit or miss for people. But if you have pcos, it's definitely a miss.
- [28:20]
Danielle Gronich
Yeah, I do want to stay on the supplement conversation for just a second because I don't feel that we get to dive into this enough within the acne and skin care space. Acne is internal and external and we focused a lot of our efforts on the external with clear stem while educating about the internal. So we educate so much about the internal and then we have a lot of external products. A few years ago we launched our Mind Body Skin supplement. As you know, it really targets those six key internal areas as it relates to acne. And it's a natural alternative to choosing to go on prescription medication for your acne, acne or not. So someone doesn't want to do that, doesn't feel comfortable or frankly, they're tired, they've been on it for years, they want to get off, they want to get pregnant. It's an amazing alternative for people and to really support those, again, supporting those key internal areas of the body instead of muting things, suppressing things, covering things up, actually supporting for long term, long term change in people's skin this year, where you actually have some more supplements coming out as well that I'm, I'm so beyond proud of because Danielle and I have felt that's where the skincare industry historically has lacked. We've noticed that a lot of people try to claim one thing is causing their acne, it's this one bacteria and this one skincare is going to solve that one bacteria. And we see this, we see this everywhere across all categories. Acne is one thing and Our skincare is going to solve that one thing. As you know, and through all of our education, it's many things. And so we have so many incredible external products and this is our year to launch some more internal products supporting foundational health for people as it supports their acne journey, their skin, but of course, whole body health. Because as we know, acne is just a manifestation of what's going on internally for the body and pore clogging ingredients externally. But if we're not actually addressing those key foundational areas, our skin is never going to get clear. And when we clear our skin by supporting those foundations, we feel better, we sleep better, our moods are better, our periods are better, our cycles are better, we just feel better. Clear skin really does change everything because it's the journey that you go on to clear your skin, it's those changes that you're making internally and externally. So this year we do have some exciting things coming out that are supporting everything from, I mean we have the good seeds that are supporting like the estrogen metabolism and the immune system and blood sugar and liver. We have some more digestion related supplements that are coming out. We have a hair, skin and nail supplement that is biotin free and has some even more incredible internal ingredients that are really supportive for hair, hair, skin and nails. But I just, I'm really proud of what we're doing this year and making a moment of acne is internal and external and how that can truly change people's lives.
- [31:21]
Tessa Zolli
I love to hear that you guys are kind of bridging this, this gap for people because I know so many of my clients want to take supplements but they're scared, they're like, well, is this gonna have some crazy percentage? And they kind of get afraid of everything. So for you guys who've kind of created products that are so safe for acne prone people to be coming out with supplements, I think that is going to be a big hit.
- [31:47]
Kaylee
Thank you. We don't launch anything unless we're very sure that it is necessary to supplement with like for example, you notice we didn't make an Omega 3. You should be getting that through your diet. High quality olive oil, wild caught fish, you know, so like we're, we're really strategic with that. So thank you for, thank you for acknowledging that, you know, there's that saying you can't be everything to everyone. We agree and we just want to be everything to the acne community. So that's what drives our formulation and product launches.
- [32:17]
Tessa Zolli
Very cool. So on the, on the note of food. I would love to explore nutrition a little bit and, and talk some more about that. I feel like, you know, certain trends have come back, such as there's a big, like, raw dairy push right now.
- [32:34]
Kaylee
A topical comment. I am just like, alone. I mean, I wound up majoring in sociology when I pitted pivoted away from medicine. So I think it's so funny how things catch on and how, like, people quickly absorb them into their identity. And it's like you're in this raw milk camp and you have to fight for it. And it's like, dude, you're talking about milk. Calm down. Like, I find it hilarious just like, as an observer. But so raw milk, okay, sure, everything has pros and cons. It, there's cons for a reason. It can have a lot of bacteria. It can be unsafe for certain people if they have certain immune predispositions. It still has insulin, like growth factor hormone. The IGF1 hormone is still present. It's there, and that's the hormone that breaks us out. For those listening, if you're not familiar with the dairy acne connection, it has something called IGF1 and it's an all dairy. Even if it's lactose free, the hormone in it breaks us out around our chin pretty much in the same area ish that excess vitamin D does. It's like right where we'd have a goatee. It's like the number one cause of chin acne is dairy. Raw or conventional, it doesn't matter. The animal, though, does matter. So sheep's milk actually has the lowest amount of IGF1. So if we have cheese, we go for sheep's milk. Cheese raw is better than pasteurized, generally. But sourcing and what the animal was eating, I believe is the number one thing.
- [33:59]
Danielle Gronich
I, I love this sociology comment on this because as we know, Instagram and social media in general is an algorithm. And creators need to make money. And so creators that people have looked up to for so long will kind of pick a certain number of categories each time to talk about over and over and over again, because that gets them, whether it's the most sales or the most engagement or gets them known for something, so they can claim that as kind of. They introduce that to the social media world. Right. So it's just really important for everyone to have that in the back of their head. We do know firsthand that sometimes people are talking about doing things every single day and they're not. Or if raw milk is, quote, responsible for their skin glowing and their hair growing Wrong. They're doing a lot of other things too.
- [34:49]
Kaylee
Like, they really, really are.
- [34:50]
Danielle Gronich
I promise you. We see it firsthand. It's not just that one thing. And again, if you are sensitive to dairy and it breaks you out and you don't feel good having it, it. Just because someone else is drinking it every single day and it, quote, made their hair grow really long or, quote, made their skin glow doesn't mean that it's going to be the right fit for you. There are some people that just are not sensitive to those things. Maybe they're sensitive to other things, but it's really just good to look at it through that lens of social media is very curated and there is intentions behind it. And just remember to think for yourself and take a step away from social sometimes and do what feels right and good for you.
- [35:33]
Tessa Zolli
Kayleigh, I also want to ask you, as somebody who has a lot of nutrition background, have you ever run into an issue with your clients of, well, kind of balancing the everything in moderation conversation with somebody who has a specific health goal? They want to get their skin clear, but they're kind of hearing this messaging that that everything's okay in moderation. If you nix things out, it's restrictive. How do you feel about that?
- [36:03]
Danielle Gronich
I used to deal with this all the time. I, I don't see clients one on one anymore. But in the very beginning I did, and this was my biggest challenge. Because you can't move in and live with your clients. And by God, I wanted to. I'm like, if you just, if I just move in with you, I can like, throw out what's in your fridge. I can like, make your food, no joke. I'm like, I used it for all my clients in San Diego. I would do fridge and pantry, clean outs. And that was always so much better. And I could, like, be in person with them. This was really hard. So I think there's a difference between restrictive and discipline. I, you know, eating disorders are real and so many women struggle with them. And sometimes when we're removing things from diet and saying, quote, we can't have them right now, it, it is real, that it can trigger eating disorder qualities for people, that eating disorder struggles. For people who have dealt with that in the past, that is real. But I do think there's a reframe that needs to happen. And it is not restrictive. It is discipline. It is personal mastery. It is having a singular goal that you're working towards and for a period of time, giving everything you have to that goal, knowing that once you get to that goal. I do believe in moderation. There is. There's a lot that I've brought back into my diet that for years I chose to eliminate for the sake of discipline and getting to my singular goal of getting my health back on track, getting my skin clear, feeling good inside my own body. So it's important to have that reframe and know that you can bring things back in in moderation. But typically, when you are struggling with aggressive acne or really serious health concerns, I do really believe you need to be disciplined and remove things. We see it all the time, especially with pore cloggers. We'll see people remove everything except their favorite blush and bronzer. And they know it has pore cloggers in it. And they'll come to us and they'll be like, I'm still breaking out right here. And it's literally right where they put the blush and bronzer. They're like, I've removed everything with pore cloggers. And then I ask them again, have you? Like, well, I kept my favorite bronzer because I can't give that up. And they're literally breaking out exactly where the bronzer is. So that's where discipline comes into play. It's the same with dairy. Dairy and eggs are really big acne triggers. And I do believe you have to be disciplined for a period of time and fully, fully remove them so you can get everything out of your body. Get yourself on the right track. And then when you feel really good and you're at a great, stable point, feel free to introduce some of those back in and see how you feel. I promise that you'll notice an actual difference. But when you're just always living in moderation while you're trying to heal again, this is key. While you're trying to heal, you won't actually know what works and what doesn't work, because that tiny bit of moderation will still keep hitting you. It's like moderation of smoking cigarettes. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, but I'm only having one a day. It's like, okay, but you're still having that one a day. Like, let's get it out. Let's get yourself to a baseline. Then you can slowly introduce things in. Then we can talk about some more moderation. But I don't think it's restrictive. Again, it's discipline to get to a certain goal. You hit that goal, feel free to bring back in that moderation and see how you feel.
- [39:23]
Kaylee
Yeah. And the whole Thing is not about like a forever. No. It's about strategic elimination tests so that you can gather data. If someone's not in the headspace where they can change their behavior for six weeks, they're not in the headspace to really tackle that health condition. Condition timing is everything. If you are overwhelmed with other things, maybe you're going through a job change or you're a student and you're like studying for the, you know, the LSAT or you have some like, crazy thing that you're in at that moment that might not be the right time to start a disciplined health journey. But if you start to work with a functional medicine doctor or an endocrinologist or anyone who actually knows their stuff, doing elimination tests with food is what you can expect. So that's what we coach people too. If you think if you don't know if eggs are breaking you out, go cold turkey for six to eight weeks, no eggs, then you purposefully have them back. Go have a few omelets, like back to back, or some scrambles or some quiche, whatever.
- [40:17]
Danielle Gronich
Right.
- [40:18]
Kaylee
Introduce it on purpose so that you get the data and then from there you know what your moderation looks like. So that's, I think, where a lot of food suggestions go awry is because it's not. Not framed in an elimination test sort of way. And it just feels like this forever thing that you can't do anymore and no one's going to respond to that. So, yeah, strategic elimination test is the same way to go.
- [40:40]
Danielle Gronich
Yeah. This is a lot of things that you don't see properly educated about on very clickbaity videos. For instance, this morning on Social, I saw a video talking about oxalates and like, that's a big topic of conversation right now. And inflammation, everything. Yes, exactly. And so the short clip of the video was people that think tea is better than coffee. And this whole video was like, tea is over 100 milligrams of oxalate and coffee barely has any. It has two. So coffee is better. Blah, blah. What it didn't. What it failed to mention is it's mainly black tea. That's really high. Herbal tea is not. And so it completely failed to mention this whole category. So of course I'm like, like, I love to just see what people are saying. They're reading the comments. And now people are afraid of tea in the comments. And it, like, it made me really sad because people are producing this clickbaity information and having these, like, really strong viewpoints on certain things with a lack of explanation. Understanding, adding context, adding a time period, adding a dosage. Like, there's so much that's missed because short, short form, clicky, fast content is prioritized on Instagram. So the longer form content that takes longer to explain but actually helps people that are listening develop critical thinking, help actually understand the subject that isn't pushed and prioritized on Instagram. So we're being fed this con, this content that is almost blocking our ability to have critical thinking and helping us actually learn. And we're just fed these sound bites. And. Which is why, like, Tessa, I'm so happy you have this podcast. And it's why Danielle and I go on so many podcasts, because this is our ability to help people not to forget the critical thinking and not to forget the scientific method when it comes to things. And in adding, again, context, time period, dosage around everything, because that's how we can better society and that's how we can truly change people's lives.
- [42:43]
Tessa Zolli
I think something that's also really tricky for people with food is they're not removing poor clogging products and they might not be treating their acne as proactively as they need to. So they might just look at the food and they're like, well, I took out dairy and I still have acne. So it's like, it's not worth it. But like you guys said, like, having a finite time where you're removing those triggers, you're kind of doing the right protocol at one time. Otherwise it is just. It's very difficult because the pores are overburdened and there's so much going on at once.
- [43:23]
Kaylee
Yep. Acne is both internal and external. We're like the first brand to really try to reinforce that for people. Acne is both internal and external. Anyone who tells you different doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. And, you know, topicals don't always solve everything. You can be doing everything perfectly with your skin care, but if you're still having whey protein every morning, you're still going to get cystic acne a lot of the time. And you'll think it's hormonal, and then you start on spironolactone and then you go down that. So it's like acne is both internal and external. And getting that concept really downloaded for people is so helpful because if you're just changing one thing at a time to see if it works and you're not thinking about it holistically, like internal and external, you'll Never get anywhere. And it's, that's when it becomes maddening and that's when people just resort to Accutane.
- [44:14]
Tessa Zolli
Yes, the protein. That's such a good point too. Everyone's really focused on a high protein diet. So most of the snacks and things they're seeing are whey, protein bars, a lot of milk products, stuff like that. What about your guys's like favorite Go to acne. Friendly meals, snacks, desserts. The listeners could try.
- [44:33]
Kaylee
Oh, I'm hungry right now. So this question is awesome.
- [44:37]
Tessa Zolli
She's like, I know what I'm getting.
- [44:38]
Danielle Gronich
Danielle, the most fun breakfast eaters.
- [44:42]
Kaylee
Yeah, I'm obsessed with chia seed pudding with the like Cocoa June or some sort of like cashew yogurt. Something with like not a lot of sugar, but it doesn't need to be tasteless. There's the harmless harvest one. There's Coco June. There's the Forager brand. There's a lot of really, really good dairy free yogurts that are still cultured. So you get the benefits of that. Just that with a bunch of chia seeds and then make it in bulk. And then every morning it's a blank canvas. You can add salt and cinnamon, you can add mint and berries, you can add maple syrup, you can throw some ground flax in there and it's just like the possibilities are endless. So chia seed pudding is great and chia seeds in general are fantastic for nearly everybody. The omegas, the fiber, all that good stuff and then savory breakfast. Kaylee eats like steak for breakfast most of the time. She'll tell you more of her recipes.
- [45:34]
Danielle Gronich
I'm a big leftovers for breakfast person. So this morning I had short rib for breakfast because I had short rib last night and I had it left over. Also Danielle and I have this favorite place in San Diego, El Pescadores. And Danielle, I went and got the grab locks the other day. So like yesterday I had like thick cut grab locks for breakfast. If I don't have any proper leftovers, I typically eat a raw bar. They make my stomach feel so good and like it's nice and dense and protein. I'll eat that. And then I, I do always have like some coconut yogurt in the fridge too. I'll sometimes make like a little protein shake. I make mine really simple. I'll just use like especially in the morning because I'm honestly trying to get away from. In the past I used to put a ton of fruit in my smoothies. And as we know, in order to release the proper digestive enzymes in our saliva. We do have to chew. So I try to just do like protein powder, water, and then like cacao nibs, like something where I'm kind of chewing a bit with my smoothie to like get that saliva activated. But leftovers for breakfast are my favorite. So steak, short ribs, salmon, like you name it. Chicken sausage. Like, I'm eating it.
- [46:45]
Kaylee
Yeah.
- [46:45]
Tessa Zolli
Amazing.
- [46:46]
Kaylee
Another one I've been doing lately is organic. So a lot of people are like, well, if I can't eat eggs, what do I eat? Organic bacon, organic sausage. All of that is still very much in the chat. I eat, eat bacon like three or four times a week. I try to do the. The organic one from the farmers market or just the highest quality one available. So, yeah, that. And then this breakfast, organic chicken sausage that has like maple in it. I saute a little bit of that with arugula and then a little bit of maple syrup in it and some salt. It's insane.
- [47:14]
Danielle Gronich
Oh, my God.
- [47:15]
Kaylee
Savory, sweet, delicious. Yeah. So if you're a bacon lover, good news for you. Eggs are out, bacon's in.
- [47:24]
Tessa Zolli
What about somebody who has a sweet tooth?
- [47:27]
Danielle Gronich
I love, I mean, Danielle's like the coconut. Coconut yogurt. If you can do sheep's milk yogurt. And again, this is after you've done the proper elimination with dairy. You feel good. See how your body does react on the sheep's milk yogurt since it is the least triggering and it's high in protein. So just see how you are on that maybe a few days a week. But. But coconut yogurt's great. Chia seeds. You can mix a really quality protein powder into your yogurt to give it some more protein as well. We love like a pea based or a pumpkin seed based or a hemp based. Everyone's body's a little different of what they feel best on. Some people like can't do pee or can't do hemp and so just try them out, see what works best for you and then throw some fruit on top. Like, I don't like. We still love fruit. Danielle and I love green apples in the morning for digestion as well. So we are so pro fruit. Like, I. I was gonna do a story on this, guys. This is so funny, but, like, I'm like back into bananas. I don't know when I got out, but bananas are so good and I feel like they got demonized from being too high in sugar. And I'm like, I don't care. Bananas are so good. And they actually help fill me up a little bit when it's, like, loaded with stuff. So, like, I'm eating bananas with cashew butter and feeling great.
- [48:44]
Kaylee
Yeah, that's a good time to take your probiotic, too. I do that. Like, a little bit on the greener side. That's a really good prebiotic. So, yeah, a greenish banana and probiotics. So good for you.
- [48:55]
Danielle Gronich
So good.
- [48:56]
Tessa Zolli
Green apple with cashew butter. It's. It tastes like a caramel apple.
- [49:00]
Danielle Gronich
So good.
- [49:01]
Kaylee
Cashew butter is one of the best nut butters. So almond butter is actually just Omega 6. It has a lot of protein in it, but it's kind of like, like just Omega 6. Like, there's not a ton of benefits in that. But cashew butter and macadamia butter are legit. Like, super good brain fuel, super healthy fats. The. God, what is it? It's the nut butter from Trader Joe's that doesn't have peanuts. That one's also delicious. But, yeah, cashew butter is legit.
- [49:29]
Tessa Zolli
So I did want to make sure I talked a little bit about your guys's acne lab test test and. And what that entails, because I feel like something I'm hearing often from clients is they try to get their hormones tested. It comes back normal. What is different about your test?
- [49:49]
Danielle Gronich
Yeah. So, yeah, when you go to the doctors and you get your nutri, like your panels run and then they come back and they're like, everything's fine. And you're like, everything's not fine. Really. Their optimal ranges are very different than our optimal ranges. So when you go to a standard doctor practice, they're evaluating you on, based on the average American. So that will always change. And the sicker that Greater America gets, the more that those normal ranges are based on that average, sicker American. And so if you are genuinely a little bit healthier than the average sicker American, you're just going to be told that you're normal. So it's not your optimal ranges. It's the average of America optimal ranges. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to be compared to the rest of America. I want to be compared to me. Like, I want to know what my optimal ranges are for me, so I can always optimize my own body. So the way that we run our blood work, you can go on our website. It's our acne lab test. You order it, you type in your zip code. It connects you with your local lab corp quest, whatever your local blood work facility is, you get it done. It gets sent, signed off by a doctor on the RUPA Labs team that we partner with. You get your results back. Those first results are still the normal results you get back from the doctor because again we, we partner with RUPA Labs, they have doctors there, our acne lab specialists then take that so you will have the originals. And then they take that and they create new optimal ranges. And these are the optimal, optimal ranges based on you and feeling good in your own body, like feeling phenomenal in your own body. So ours are expanded in a very different way. And so they're going to be looking at it through a brand new lens of optimal ranges and give you results based on that. It has been transformative for people. I mean, we have everyone who just struggles with, quote, your average acne. Every once in a while we have people that just want to understand their bodies a little bit more. And then we have people who have been struggling with acne for decades, like they are in their 30s and 40s, 50s even, and they are thinking, I have to live with acne the rest of my life. I just have to assume this as part of my personality because nothing is going to change. And they take our acne lab tests and we put them on a protocol and they see that they've had an underlying infection for over 10 years. Like you can have these micro underlying infections that don't manifest in, quote, being sick, they manifest in acne, in joint pain, in sinus issues and bloating issues like manifest differently for everyone. And it has been so incredible to see these people who thought they had to live with acne for the rest of their lives and finally figuring out what it is when people's toxic overload in their body, their picture a bucket. And it eventually, that toxic overload eventually starts spilling over. When that happens, we gotta empty out that toxic load and we have to see what's contributing to it. So our acne lab panel can show people what is contributing to their toxic load and bring awareness to their own body. It is, it is truly changing lives. And it makes me so emotional when I log in because we have a membership that's attached to it. So everything, everyone that goes to our acne lab panel, they're automatically entered into our membership where they're, there's videos that break down even more explanations to all the markers we're testing on and what optimal ranges really mean. We have a chat group where everyone in the membership can share resources, they can be really supportive to each other going through different protocols. We have weekly Office hours with all of our Acme lab specialists where people can just hop on and ask questions. And then we have opportunities for people to book one on ones and do additional testings as well. And it is just so beautiful to see people really understand their own body because not only are they helping themselves, but they're helping the future generations and their friends and their family members and their children if they have children. And just providing this new awareness on what we're doing every single day and the effects it has on our body and the contribution it has to our toxic overload to when it starts spilling out, it manifests into a lot of different diseases.
- [54:11]
Tessa Zolli
That is probably so relieving for people to see like concrete answers on a lab test, especially when they haven't gotten it. And I feel like even for Estes, that's a really good resource if you're getting any like mystery clients where you're like, we just can't figure this out and you want to dig deeper. Possibly having them do the acne lab test, I think could be amazing. Are there any, like unusual findings you guys have seen, like, aside from infections or if you want to talk a little bit about that, any common threads.
- [54:41]
Kaylee
Things that don't get identified during conventional lab work is what we're picking up. It's things like Candida, heavy metals, possible parasite infection. Those two things are often related, by the way. Understanding the interplay between the markers. Like if one marker is off, okay, where does, what's the corresponding marker to give us more clues as to what, what's really going on. So it's the, it's not just getting blood work done. It's the interpretation and the accounting for all of the things that Western medicine does not account for. And then we also test for like digestion, like, like some people just have digestive issues where it's not necessarily their microbiome, it's their digestive enzymes. Like if they're on a high protein diet, because everyone is now, but they're perhaps not breaking proteins down that well. Like they need enzymes. So we look at things at the granular level almost the way like a tradition Chinese medicine. I'm almost from that framework where it's like the inverse of conventional Western medicine. You know, it's taking that knowledge and it goes through a set of Western doctors as well. But then our lab experts review it with the lens of like micro infections. Yeast, candida, mold toxicity, a possible parasite, heavy metals, like all the other things. And then even the small things, like, hey, your digestion is just A little bit off, off, eat a little bit less meat, maybe add some vitamin, add some supplements to help, like break down your meat and then see how that goes. So it's like very logical things that are just addressing the functions of the body as they should be looked at instead of just being like, well, it's normal. If you're still unhappy, you can just take the batteries out of the smoke alarm by going on some meds.
- [56:23]
Danielle Gronich
I don't want to overwhelm anyone by saying what I'm about to say, because when it comes to the protocol protocols, yes, they're different, but there are a lot of very similarities. Like these things I'm about to list off are very interconnected. So it doesn't mean that each one of these Things adds on 10 things for you to do. Our protocols are very simple, very straight to the point. It's typically a few really niche supplements we have people take. And by really niche, I mean like black cumin seed oil, pumpkin seed oil, PC, sodium butyrate, tudka. I think like, like things that you're not typically finding because you really should be taking some of these things in relation to a protocol. Some are going to take every day, but some are good only like in timestamps of three months at a time. But trends that we typically see show up on the acne lab panel are, I mentioned chronic infection already, but immune system dysregulation, inflammation, stress on the body, surprise, surprise. Inability to properly balance your own blood sugar and high insulin levels, bacteria, fungus, yeast. Danielle had mentioned the parasites and heavy metals. That's a really big one that shows up. And then two really consistent ones that we see on most panels is liver stress and kidney stress gas. Both of those are so important for our hormones. And the kidneys are kind of like the air filter of the home as well. And so if the air filter is clogged up, things can't flow through properly. So a lot of our recommendations, beyond just some of the supplement protocols that we recommend, it's a lot of lifestyle things and it's really like easy shifts for things. So it is drinking water with lemon in the morning before you have your caffeine, it's moving and getting your lymphatic system going. So whether that's jumping jacks or rebounding or jumping walking in general, but getting that lymphatic system moving, it's making sure that you're getting enough protein in the morning, it's making sure that you're sweating and having regular bowel movements as well. So Again, all of these things.
- [58:42]
Kaylee
Yeah, we're big on pooping.
- [58:43]
Danielle Gronich
We're big. We are big on it. We gotta get that out. So a lot of it are just really simple shifts that actually don't cost anything, but we aren't making the connection by not doing these things. The effect that can have on our body. And so the protocols are actually simpler than people would imagine. Even though it can feel sometimes overwhelming seeing everything. I'm so proud of our team with the way they guide everyone through it makes it really easy. Create simple protocols that are really achievable for people and then having that support system in our membership as well.
- [59:19]
Kaylee
Yeah. And we just started offering the GI mapping test and the. And the Dutch test. Yeah, those are very hard. I know they're very hard to get, but they're.
- [59:29]
Tessa Zolli
So I want to do all of these.
- [59:31]
Kaylee
Yeah, you can't properly understand your estrogen unless you do a Dutch test. Bottom line, blood work will not get you there. So, yeah, we're really excited to start offering that for people.
- [59:41]
Tessa Zolli
Amazing. Well, we might have to do a part two sometime, but I just want to thank you guys so much for your time for coming on, for all you do. For all of us who've struggled with acne, it's seriously amazing. And we're also thankful for you. What is next for Clear Stem and where can we find you both?
- [60:02]
Kaylee
What is next for us? How would you answer that?
- [60:05]
Danielle Gronich
I would say, okay, there's some really fun things coming this year. So we mentioned the internal. So we do have some more internal launches that we have coming this year to support those internal areas as it relates to acne and skin health. We have some new branding that we have coming second half of the year that we're so beyond proud of. It is beyond, beyond stunning, and it adds a little more of a systematic approach to our products and where to start and what's going to help you the most. And so we have some new color coding come out, some new categories coming out. So just adding more clarity, because when we. When we started Clear stem, we had one product and then we had four, and now we almost have 20. So we realized a real. A strong need for just adding more clarity for people on where to start for what they're struggling with. Because, again, one of our biggest missions is to help relieve the suffering and those who are struggling with acne. And we never want to contribute to the overwhelm. And with all of our products, we noticed a need for helping to simplify things for everyone. So you'll see that coming second half of the year too.
- [61:14]
Tessa Zolli
You guys do such a great job of putting out the info, but making it digestible for, you know, your average consumer. And I know us girls love a little color coded moment, so that'll be so fun always.
- [61:27]
Danielle Gronich
And for more of all of our education, you can find us across all social channels at Clearstem Skincare. And then our website, clearstem.com is also stocked full of information from our blogs to our masterclass recordings. Always recommend taking the skin quiz first because not only does it help give product recommendations, but it's actually going to give lifestyle recommendations. Like it's going to really dive into some things we talked about on this podcast as a helpful resource for everyone.
- [61:56]
Tessa Zolli
Thank you guys so much for your time. Thank you all for listening and hope to have you back soon.
- [62:03]
Kaylee
Thank you, thank you.