← The TreppWire Podcast: A Commercial Real Estate Show
The TreppWire Podcast: A Commercial Real Estate Show
363. WeWork CEO John Santora on the Power of Flexibility & Real Estate Cycles
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Welcome to the Tripwire podcast, the show where commercial real estate meets data and insights. This is a special guest podcast. I'm Hayley Keane with trep, a data modeling and analytics firm for the CMBS commercial real estate and CLO markets. I'm with Lonnie Hendry, Chief Product Officer. Today we're joined by John Santora, Chief executive officer of WeWork. John is leading the company's renewed focus on operational discipline, profitable growth and delivering flexible office solutions for today's workforce. He joined WeWork in June 2024 after a 47 year career at Cushman and Wakefield where he held senior leadership roles including Global coo, CEO of North America and Tri State Chairman. Widely regarded as one of the most experienced executives in global commercial real estate charter, John brings a deep understanding of occupier needs, landlord relationships and market dynamics to his role. He is now guiding WeWork through its next chapter as the company evolves to meet the demands of a hybrid workforce. John, we are so excited. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show.
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Thank you for having me. I'm excited as well.
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So let's start from the beginning here. You've had an incredible career in commercial real estate and a long run at Cushman and Wakefield, nearly five decades. How did you first get your start in this real estate world?
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Well, real estate was really happenstance to me because in 1977 when I was coming out of school, New York City, I always wanted to be a fireman. My father was a battalion chief, my brother was a captain, my brother in law was a fireman. So it's pretty much what I knew and where I wanted to go. But as I came out of school, New York City was going bankrupt, was on the verge of bankruptcy and they were laying off cops and firemen for, I think, and sanitation workers, I think, for the only time in history. So I knew that it was going to be a long run before I had was going to have the opportunity to join the fdny. So I took a summer job with Cushman Wakefield and 47 years later joined WeWork. It was a great run.
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C
Yeah, that's a great story. And you know, I have to say this. On every guest episode, we asked people how they got in commercial real estate and I can tell you, you continued the trend here of that kind of happened by happenstance, got into commercial real estate. It seems like nobody sought out to say, hey, I want to be a commercial real estate broker, I want to work in this business. But we end up finding ourselves Here. And as you mentioned, you know, 47 years at Cushman and Wakefield. Really incredible. And I know, I think you started there as a building engineer, is that correct, and then worked your way up.
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Yeah, my initial job was an engineer's helper, you know, in the, in the boiler room or engine room as we used to call it. And then ultimately, you know, I moved up into property management and running property management and then took it global. And when Bruce Mosler became CEO, he asked me to be our CEO. And you know, that was, you know, a great opportunity and from there, you know, continued at that level, either as the global CEO or running different operations.
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C
So let's, let's go back. You know, we're going to get to, we work because that's, that's where you're at now and you're leading some exciting, you know, changes there. But just to kind of set this stage, you know, over almost five decades in the commercial real estate space, what are the shifts that you've seen from when you started out to now? And then we'll kind of, we'll dovetail into how that impacts what you're doing here at WeWork. But it feels like the market is considerably different. Technology is now in part of the, of the process. There's a lot of things, hybrid work, et cetera. You know, what are some of the major shifts you've seen throughout your tenure?
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So you just named a whole bunch of them. But I mean, we think about it then even globalization, there were very few firms that had anything outside of, you know, their market. And you know, the banks always had a few, but most firms had a headquarters in New York and then maybe a couple other locations around, around the country. And real estate then was you pretty much, if you were a significant company, you owned your headquarters, right? And then you had some long term leases. And that was to, that was the way it took you through the ups and downs of markets today, you know, very different as we, you know, globalization data centers, you have all kinds of different dispersed operations, different, different needs in different locations around the world. But I think one of the important things is having gone through all the different cycles. You know, I think at this point in my life, when I look back and throughout the years, you could see it. Real estate is cyclical. Its down cycles may be driven by real estate itself, overbuilding, right. Or it may be driven by different economic conditions around the world, around the country. But whatever it is, it's a cycle. And you know, shortest cycle might be four years. The longest might be 10. But we know in that 10 year period something's going to happen. And I've lived through, through all of those and seen the, you know, the positives and the negatives that go with it. And I was talking to somebody the other day and there was a, there was a headline, I'm going to say middle of 2022. And it said in one of the industry papers here in New York and it said who would want to own a New York office building? And in the last three months there's probably been 15 out of traded hands. Right. Of significant scale. So, so we do know it, it goes through all those cycles and I, and I think now being at WeWork, learning, living those cycles, seeing what's gone on, helps me talk to the corporate real estate executives about how do they bring that flexibility into their portfolio and help to de risk during.
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C
Yeah, I think that's great perspective and I know for a lot of people that got in the real estate business after the great financial crisis, they felt like values only went up, cap rates only went down, rental rates only went up. And they had never experienced a cycle until we hit 2020. And to your point, the reality of the cyclical nature of our business started to come to fruition. And so it's great to hear from your perspective. I mean I think that's what, you know, differentiates or separates people in their, in their careers is how many cycles have you been through? They're not all the same. They're usually caused by slightly different factors. But the comparable. And I think to your point, we're definitely seeing a resurgence in office, especially in New York City. I know in the CMBS world we've seen about $25 billion worth of office origination this year in a large sum. About 14 billion of that has been in the New York City metro. And so there's been a huge resurgence of people wanting to be in offices, you know, acquiring, refinancing, et cetera, et cetera. So let's kick this off with some of the WeWork talk. You know, we're super excited to have you on. We, we've highlighted, we work in a lot of our shows. You guys have been in the headlines. Some good, some bad. We'll get to a little bit of both of those. But just, you know, we work filed for bankruptcy. They had the movie that came out, they had all this stuff. Is it a technology company, is it a real estate company? Like where do they fit? You come in and you kind of provide a stabilizing force, you know, give Us some perspective. You're sitting at Cushman and Wakefield. This opportunity presents itself like, what are you thinking when someone approaches you and says, hey, what do you think about becoming the CEO of WeWork?
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Yeah, that's right. So little taken aback on that one. And. And then I thought through it and said, is this the opportunity to, you know, revitalize a brand to help, you know, a great turnaround story? And then you go through, is it right for me? Can I do it? How would you go through it? And, you know, at the end of the day, I said, this is a real estate company. You lease space and you sublease it to your members and you provide some hospitality along the way and some technology. Right. So technology enables you, but you're a real estate business. So as I thought through that and I thought about what needed to be done, you know, I made the decision to take it through, take it on. And it's been really about a disciplined structure, very disciplined in how we move forward and whether or not we take any new leases, how we go about that. Let me just kind of roll back a little bit. The starting point was one of. I came in as we exited bankruptcy. Now, there was still a lot to be done, but we exited bankruptcy. We had no debt at that point. The debt was all cleared. We had, you know, we had cash on hand to be able to make the investments that we needed to make. So my first step was to, you know, assess the team, assess the market, the business, where it is, and how do we move forward. So did structural changes with the team. We also had to reset the size of the organization based upon the new portfolio and the way forward. Right. We're no longer a public company. We didn't need all the compliance that goes with that. And so we restructured the company from a people standpoint and move forward. Then we made sure, I made sure that every part of the process. So if we were going to sign a new member to a space that had to have a profitability aspect, like nothing was going to be, we're not taking things at a loss. You know, it's not. It's not how much space you own, it's how profitable it is and what you have. And then the second piece of that was going through meeting with the various landlords, corporate executives that we were working with and those that we wanted to work with and begin that process of polishing up a brand that created, in everyone's view, the coworking as we know it today. But the brand needed to be polished up.
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C
Yeah, I think, I mean, those are all things that needed to, to have happened. And I think, you know, just in our short conversation here, I mean, I can tell your demeanor and the way you approach things is perfectly suited for those conversations. And you obviously bring a lot of credibility to the table, having been in the business for almost 50 years to have those discussions. Because I think one of the challenges is once the narrative turns negative, right? You have the bankruptcy and other things. You know, you have landlords and other people that maybe look at something that they once viewed as super exciting in this kind of unconventional real estate, play with a negative lens. But I can say since you've taken over, it feels like, you know, you guys have done a really great job of turning that around. And just for some perspective, I mean, I don't have the exact numbers, but I think, you know, from what my research showed, you guys have about 550,000 members globally and, you know, produce still multiple billions in revenue through the business. Business model. So even with a reduced footprint, you guys are still a significant force in the market. So, you know, maybe walk us through how hybrid work and kind of shift from five days in the office to this new working style. Does that positively or negatively impact this co working environment? I mean, you guys are kind of non traditional as is. Does this new environment create more challenges for you or does it create more opportunity?
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Yeah, look, I think the hybrid model does create some more opportunity for us. It comes with its own challenges for anybody that owns real estate, right? How much do you need? How many people are actually going to be in the office? What do I build for? But I think today we look at, call it an average of three and a half days in the office. Many firms have gone and said it's five days. I think the Friday is always going to be a hybrid for people. I think it was before the pandemic, right? And even before the pandemic, there's not. People aren't in the office 100% of the time. We began to build space leading into the pandemic or, or from the early call it 2012 13, your building spaces is no longer one seat for one person, right? Because people are traveling. They are, they're, you know, they're on vacation, they're traveling, they're out sick or they're in conferences. So if you measured it back then, there weren't 100% of your staff in the office 100% of the time. So we began to build differently. We look today, and it's like I say, it's three and a half days. Some say it's five days in their offices, others say it's two days with, I think it settles out at that, three days, maybe it's four. It's going to depend on the type of firm the travel at the firm does. But I think the office is a grounding piece for brand, for learning, for mentoring, for creativity. And you need to have people in, but those spaces need to be exciting. So when we look at the hybrid for us, as people try to figure out what should the space look like, how much should we have, as everybody's still figuring out their model, remember their model and what their footprint will be, we have to get grounded in the fact that from 2020 to 2000, all at 23, 24 heads of real estate were doing the smart thing. They were subleasing their space if they could. But they also weren't renewing new leases, consolidating back into spaces because nobody was coming into the office or there was very little people returning to the office. So when the CEO wakes up one morning and says, you know what, I want everybody back, what happens? The heads of real estate turn around. I look at each other and hopefully and a whole bunch of them have called me, said, what can we do? Because we can be the fast solution before they get to their long term. Right. Having been in this business as long as, as long as I have, as long as others have. And you have a lease doesn't happen in three months. Today's leases take at least a year, 18 months by the time you find the space and you have, you know, the lawyers beat it up and back and forth and all of that. And then, and then you have the architects and then the engineers and you start to lay it out. The lease may be done in eight months or a year, but then the construction starts and that whole process. Most deals of any scale are going to take you a couple of years and of real scale, it's three years. So what do you do during the period of when people are coming back to the office and you're figuring out where your new offices are going to be or how you're going to add space to the process? So we become that gap one in our offices that we have, in the spaces that we have and then the model that we've now gone through, that's been talked about a lot, where we take down space specifically for a user and that is a short term lease. Usually it's a sublease, where we're taking over some sublease space. But we've done a number with landlords directly that matches the term that the member wants and we can usually get that done in a 60 to 90 day period. I was shocked that we could, but it is, it's. We work pretty fast when it comes to that. We limit the amount of changes that happen in a space like that. And our process for signing the lease, whether it's a lease or sublease, is much quicker because first of all we have 45 million square feet around the world. So we've done a lot of leases. We know what we need and we don't fight for all the other things that we don't really need. Right. A tenant going in, if it's a financial firm, all their lawyers, everybody's got to weigh in on it. Every, you know, from an insurance perspective, from all the, you know, it's a public entity, so there's other issues that they have to deal with. Everybody with a VP title wants to have a comment on what the color is going to be and what the brand's going to be and where do I sit and all that. We're getting it specifically for a short period of time to help this member out. So we do it really quick. The member only has to sign a membership agreement with us, which is a four page document. So that doesn't take long to happen. We sign the lease pretty quick and then we do whatever limited work you need for a couple year period of time. Yeah, sometimes it goes out to three or four years. We've had a few that are designed around five years. That's generally a little bit of a bigger build. But that all flows out of that hybrid model. Right. How do you help them in that interim period and then on a long term basis. I can talk about that when you're, when you're ready.
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Yeah. I think just the way you summarize that value add and seizing the opportunity is really great. I mean when you think of we work, most people probably don't think of them in that level of like corporate service to these larger institutions for that interim period where they need that transitional space. And you know, to your point, signing a four page document, you can get that through procurement pretty quickly versus the 18 to 24 month example you gave earlier on the full build out and leasing space. And so, you know, I think that's a, that's an interesting perspective and I think it's, it's kind of, you know, interesting in the sense that wework is just probably misunderstood more than anything else. I mean there was so much hoopla at the beginning of this disruptor and kind of this tech startup in real estate. And I think it's really interesting that you've identified that you guys are at your core a real estate company. You're tech enabled, but you're a real estate company. I think having that distinction really helps bring you back to the core value proposition that you guys have created. I know there's some hospitality components. I mean, if you've ever been into a WeWork so far, listeners, I mean, we work has done an exceptional job of building out very inviting spaces for people that come in, whether you're just getting a desk for a day or getting an office suite or you're renting a podcast studio. I mean, I've actually recorded one of our weekly podcast shows in one of your DC offices, rented a podcast studio, and it was a super easy plug and play. I was there for two hours. It was incredibly, you know, easy to procure. I went and plugged in, we recorded the show and I left. It was great. And so I'm a huge proponent. But give us some perspective on some of the hospitality component too. I know, looks like you guys have done some Ritz Carlton style training for your staff and just what is some of the perspective or the driver for those types of elements as well?
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So I think, as we step back, talked about the corporate side and helping and working with the corporates as they come in. But at our core, initially, a lot of our spaces are filled with that entrepreneur 1, 2, 5 people or the. Even the small local accounting firm or whatever it might be. And our hospitality component or our community teams help them in the process, from the welcoming, the checking them in, the coffee. And there's always an event at least three times a week. There's some kind of event going on this last couple of weeks. Painting pumpkins, candy events and, and that sort of thing. There's always something to engage people and bring people together. We think that's an important component of why you go to the office. Some of it's for the amenities which we provide based on the locations. Some are different POD studios and some and theaters and others and theater rooms and so forth. So different levels of amenities. But our community associates are, you know, they're, they're the lifeblood. They're the people that our 550,000 members meet every day when they walk in the office. So they've always been trained pretty well. But I wanted to take it up a notch and I. And in my C and W days, I used the Ritz Carlton leadership center for training, you know, some of our building engineers for really some of our high end clients and the security staff and the receptionists. So I thought that would be a good play here. And it, we kicked it off, let's say about three months ago and is working it through the system. We had three major meetings in our, in our global centers and now they're working through everyone at every level. Will, will go through the training and all those little. And the tricks and ways of handling challenges or just welcoming people and making them feel great that the Ritz does. When you go to one of their hotels, you know, they're sharing that. So it's been a, I think it's the start of a game changer and I think long term it will be a great move for us and for our teams. And as I say there were our community associates, many of those, it's their first job at a university. This is not all, it's a chance for them to learn more. They're not going to be a community associate forever. A handful of them will move up in our organization but it's another learning experience for them as they go get their next job.
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C
So yeah, I mean it's a great having worked in property management myself, I mean you guys kind of thread the needle between landlord, property manager, all in one and that hospitality staff of people signing people in and you know, helping them with their daily leases and explaining some of the events. That's almost like day to day hand to hand property management skills and those pay dividends regardless of where you work, you know, at any future endeavor because we're dealing with people, we're all in sales, right? I mean we, we learned that very early on. And so I think you're going to have massive success with that type training. And I think it's just another way to differentiate yourself in a competitive space. And so a couple of questions as we kind of wrap up here. I mean you guys have gone from hyper growth. I mean the square footage totals that you mentioned earlier, I mean that's nothing to sneeze at. I mean you guys are a major force in the office space ecosystem. Would you agree that you guys are in what we would consider like a cost conscious discipline operations form of your business now. I mean where do you see yourself? Are you still in a growth mode, just maybe not as growth mode or are you more in like how do we maximize, create efficiencies and really drive a more conscientious approach approach to the business?
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So as I said, we're at about 45 million square feet around the world between our, a couple of our affiliates and, and in our platform at some, that's about a third or maybe more on the downside from what it was at its peak. So about a third of the portfolio, maybe slightly more, was negotiated out during the bankruptcy process. We think this is the right footprint for us. There will be some ads in key markets. We just took down Toronto is really on fire and we just took down a new lease there at One University Place in addition to the five floors that we already have there. And it's almost full. We haven't even finished the build out yet and it's almost full. We took a couple of new leases here in New York because New York is about 90% in occupancy. And you know what happens when you hit 90%. There's not a lot of room to move people around or growth opportunities. And it's usually the toughest space that you have left, right? So hard to rent, hard to get people to use it. You got to give it at a discount. So we've taken a few spaces down here and we're, and we will do that in key markets around the world as needed. But the analysis that goes into that, you know, on how likely we fill it up, how long is it going to take, what, you know, what's the cost going to be, what's the market conditions? Just, just as any developer or any owner would be leasing their space, we go through that same discipline process. And then, you know, then when we look at where our business is today, we've got a lot of things going on. So we have the, as I said, those small entrepreneurs, the regional firms and then the, the larger enterprise clients. But we do it in our traditional co working locations. We have, you know, we have on demand. So if somebody who is not even a member or, or is a member, but they just take it every once in a while they need an office and they come in, they book that online. We have the all access, which is a big piece. You know, it's a significant revenue driver for us where somebody gets a black car, as you probably did, you can drop into DC or our podcasting, I'm selling here, a podcasting location in Chicago on Green street. And you can go anywhere in the world with that black heart, right? That costs you anywhere from 3 to 400 bucks a month. And then we have all this enterprise stuff. So we have the things we've taken down, as I said, some subleases or some small short term Direct leases, sometimes in hundreds of thousands of square feet for like, like 47 of the Fortune 100 sits in our spaces. But we've also started to do some five years, ground up, build, full build out for some clients. Part of that is we'll put the capital up and amortize it over. Generally, even if it's a five year deal, we'll probably amortize it over three years. But it makes sense for them because it's a different conversation when they go into the CFO and say, oh, I need five, six, seven million dollars to build out the space. And the CFO says, and research needs this and that building. They need another 10 million and everything else. So it's sunk capital in real estate as a tenant, you never get that capital back. It's gone. So if you can read that payment out over three years or five years, the CFO is a whole lot happier about you taking that space. And we have a mechanism to do that. So we have all those different things going on and different ways of continuing to grow our business and fill our existing spaces and expand outside of those under those specific conditions. Right. A specific build out that's for five years or three years, or you know, the Amazon one that everybody's read about, multiple locations, anywhere from two to four year takedown.
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C
It's great to hear how you guys have pivoted and still stayed true. I mean, some of those things were core value add for you guys in the beginning. Is having the ability to take space down and build it out now maybe a little extravagant at some of those locations, looking back, you know, But I think you guys still, you know, as you've described here, and Amazon is an example, I mean, that's a home run story for both sides of the equation and it's great. So, you know, maybe two more questions and then we'll let Hayley close. You hit on one of my talking points earlier when you said you had to go into landlords and you kind of had to reframe, you know, what wework was going to be under your leadership. How have those conversations been and is the reception positive now when you come into some of these new opportunities? Like you talked about Toronto, when you go and sit down with the building owner, are they excited about having WeWork expand or enter their space? Or what do those conversations look like since you've taken over for one way.
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A
It was a different conversation from the start because many of them that I walked into, I had relationships, had met them before, had worked with them, worked with them before. On their real estate. And I also know, and they know that these are tough conversations, right? But every landlord has been in that same conversation with their banker, right? Or whoever's funding them. So, yeah, you can say you let us down. You didn't do this. It's. Look, all right, it's a cycle. We're disciplined now. We're starting out with no debt. We both been through this before. We've both been in that hot seat. And here's why I think you should give us a chance. You know, a lot of them were with us. A lot of them appreciated the way that we left space. We helped some of the members as we left make direct deals with the landlords and so forth. So there wasn't a. And I give the team here great credit because there wasn't a crash and burn when they left. But, yeah, look, again, it's important to have those relationships. I'm a believer that the first time you sit down with somebody, if it's about a crisis, boy, you got a deep hole to dig out. But if you've got a relationship and you've been through some, you've met the person before, they know who you are, you've built some credibility and trust. When you have that crisis, you can usually work through it. So that's the way I approached it. But, yeah, there were some that were really tough. There's no question about it. And partially because the old wework put them in financial troubles with their building. But a lot of them, respect, again, I had a level of respect and relationship with them. They respected our, you know, our major shareholder or major owner anantiority and what he's done. And the fact that we were entering and could show a financial statement that had no debt and doing, you know, 202.3 billion in revenue, 2.4 billion in revenue. It's nothing to sneeze at.
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C
Yeah, I agree. And I think it's, you know, your experience as a practitioner in the space has to resonate with people. And as you mentioned, you know, a lot of these building owners have found themselves on the other end of that spectrum as well. I mean, we see it every day, we track the markets, and, you know, you have a really strong real estate capital firm that owns some assets that one day they're making a headline because they're giving the keys back, and the next day they're announcing that they're launching a new fund. And it just is part of the cycle, you know. And so I think, you know, you providing a strategic vision on the Go forward basis and kind of resetting, you know, where you're a debt free firm looking for new opportunities. I'm excited and I think I'm leaving our conversation today with a new appreciation for just what wework is going to continue to offer to the commercial real estate space broadly. I mean, I think, think it was like anything else in life. Sometimes headlines and everything else only, you know, exploit 1 or 2% of a value prop or they find the things that are eccentric and they highlight those. But the foundation of what you've outlined today is one of a real estate company that provides a solution for an identified need in the marketplace. I mean it's, there's no question that there's a need for your guys service and you know, it's exciting. So I guess last question for me is just, just you know, coming in, you know, having spent your entire career at Cushman and Wakefield, has this rejuvenated you at a level that you maybe were unexpected or is this something where you're like, I thought I was going to give it three or four years and that's still what I'm going to do. Or do you see yourself sitting here in the next 10 years doing the same thing?
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A
I'm excited by it. I get to deal with a lot of people that I knew in an industry that I know and that I love and, and I, and I'm working with a bunch of really talented young professionals here. So that's energizing in itself. So yeah, I don't know how long I'll run, but I know that I'm still enjoying it. I'm still first one in the office at, you know, quarter to seven in the morning, seven o'. Clock. And you know, if I didn't, if I didn't wake up with a smile and happy to, to get here, that might be the time that it's, you know, I decide it's enough. But right now I'm having a blast.
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C
Yeah. And it comes through in the way you describe it. So I, it wouldn't be a typical guest podcast if I didn't say last question and then add one more. So I have one more question. You talked about your affinity for the fire department and your family with roots there. Have they all gotten okay with you spending 50 years of your career in the real estate space or they still give you a hard time for not going down that path?
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A
Well, my dad passed away a while back, but yeah, you know, there was a point where it did click to him and I think it was probably the first time, you know, in New York City, they where the real estate industry is incredibly charitable. And I think the first time I was honored and at one of these dinners, and I think it kind of clicked on him like the kid did. Okay.
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C
Yeah.
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But, yeah, I sit on the fire department board today, the foundation board, and we raised lots of money for the FDNY and their training and smoke detectors for 100,000 people each year. So I've given back in my way.
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C
That's great. That's great, John.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Thank you so much, John. This has been such an interesting episode and mean, it's just clear how much you've done for our commercial real estate industry at large. I think our listeners will have a nice look at WeWork's evolution here today and then also some perspective on the future of where you see real estate going. So I usually let our guests close with a last piece of commentary, whether that's about where you see the future of WeWork going or your broader view of commercial real estate. Give us your final take here.
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A
I'll give you two. One, broader view of real estate is. Yeah, again, it's cyclical. The move first is always to the best assets. Those assets today have to have lots of amenities. So we'll see, we'll continue to see, I think basic amenities or some standard amenities in each of the buildings going forward. And I think the great cities will return and go through their bumps and bruises. Right. And some of them have really been down, but, but I look at San Francisco the way it's been bouncing back of recent. Right. So they'll be back. They are great cities for lots of reasons. Talent, location and infrastructure. I think from our perspective, we'll continue to invest back in our spaces. Some of them are old and really need that refresh. We're spending about 80 to $100 million a year to update them and we'll continue to do that. I see that on into the future, both in its, you know, the furnishings and finishings and the paint and carpet, but also the technology we have in it. And I think that's important for any firm is to continue to invest back in your. In your product. So, yeah, close with both of those.
- [33:26]
B
And thank you again, John. This was an excellent podcast. If you want to learn more about WeWork, visit their website, find them on LinkedIn or send us a note and we will connect you with the WeWork team. They've been. Been so open and willing to just chat and that's what you heard today on this episode with you, John So thank you again. And with that, we'll close this special podcast. Thank you, John, for joining us today.
- [33:48]
A
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
- [33:50]
B
Join us later this week as we look at what's happened during the week and how it may be impacting you. If you have a question or a comment, send an email to podcastruck.com until then, visit trek.com for more info and subscribe to the TrapWire podcast with your favorite provider. Thank you for listening and stay well.
- [34:08]
C
All right.