← The Underworld Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript209 lines
- [00:01]
A
Carvana is so easy. Just a click and we've got ourselves a car.
- [00:05]
B
See so many cars.
- [00:07]
A
That's a clicktastic inventory. And check out the financing options, payments to fit our budget. I mean, that's Clickonomics101. Delivery to our door. Just a hop, skip and a click away. And bot no better feeling than when everything just clicks. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery Fees may apply. May 1957. Manhattan, 115 Central Park west, to be precise. A luxury building, the Luciano crime family, one of New York City's powerful five Mafia families, is undergoing a bit of in upheaval. Founded by the infamous Charles Lucky Luciano, one of the most powerful mobsters America has ever known, the family is now headed by Frank Costello. Costello isn't a street thug. He doesn't love violence and he doesn't really need it that much. He's got politicians, judges, cops and business leaders all in his pocket. They call him the prime minister of the underworld, a man who prefers influence over intimidation. But there's some people, even in his own family, who see things differently. Among them is Vito Genovese, who the family will later become named for. Genovese is a killer, a man who relishes bloodshed. He wants Costello out and of course thinks that he's the guy to replace him. I mean, he figures he would have actually already been boss if he didn't have to flee the country years ago to duck a murder charge. Since he's returned back stateside in 1945, he'd been building his own power base for exactly this moment. You see, in the ensuing decade.
- [01:44]
B
Check.
- [01:45]
A
Genovese, a capo, starts to create a family within a family so he can one day make a move on Costello. One of the youngsters in that family is a young bruiser by the name of Vincent Gigante, also known as Chin. A pro boxer turned utility man for the gangsters who ran his neighborhood of Greenwich Village. Genovese woos Gigante and his three hoodlum brothers into his faction by paying for their mom's surgery when they can't afford it. He sees something in the young Gigante at that point, just another goon trying to make his way up the underworld ladder and takes him under his wing, mentoring him as Gigante serves as a bodyguard and driver. And Gigante, he shows promise. A lot of promise. So when the time comes for Genovese to finally make his move on Costello, he's got just the guy. Even though he's only 29 years old, Costello probably should be more Careful. He's the boss of a mob family in New York, and people know where he lives, including the people in his own family. So when he gets out of a cab after leaving dinner with his wife and some friends early, he probably should have been looking over his shoulder at the black Cadillac that pulled up behind him. But he wasn't, so he doesn't see Chin stepping out of that Cadillac and following him into the fancy apartment building. Chin steps out of the shadows and points a.38 revolver at him, saying, quote, this is for you, Frank, before firing a shot that rips into Costello's head, spraying blood everywhere. Costello goes down. And Gigante, for whatever reason, he doesn't fire another shot. He turns and he runs. Costello survives. And even more shockingly, instead of going to war or issuing a death sentence for Chin, he decides he's just going to retire. And at 66 years old, he steps down as boss of arguably the most powerful organized crime group in America. At the time, he had seen the writing on the wall. He even refuses to identify Gigante at his attempted murder trial months later. And after that, they even become friends. Chin, though, this is his moment. He's going to rise through the ranks of the family, eventually becoming one of the most powerful mob bosses in American history. He's also going to become famous for something else. Wandering the streets of Grenwich Village in his bathrobe, mumbling to himself incoherently, sometimes even whipping it out and peeing on the street. All in one of the most elaborate acts in criminal defense history. And Costello, he won't be the only boss of a family that Vincent Gigate tries to take out. This is the underworld podc. Welcome back to the audio. And now, visual experience known as the Honorable Podcast, where two journalists, myself, Danny Gold, and my CO Sean Williams, bring you a new story of international organized crime. Every single week, we trade off hosting duties. We share some laughs. We learn things about Sean's domestic life that we don't really need to know. So, you know, we have. We have fun here. Sean, you've been actually hanging out with, like, crocodiles. There's a photo you sent me of you being rather inappropriate with a giant crocodile skull. What was. What's going on there, bud?
- [05:13]
B
That's just my straining face, which I do more and more these days thanks to my ill health. But, yeah, it was a. It was a 5.1-meter crocodile skull, which is like 40 kilos. I don't know, like 100 pounds. Luckily, I'm completely stacked, so I can handle it, but I was up in Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia, for a story about crocodiles for National Geographic, which is a very weird place.
- [05:35]
A
I mean, rogue adventure. Rogue adventure, yeah.
- [05:38]
B
Yeah. I mean, you know, you'd be unsurprised to learn that men who wrestle crocodiles for a living are, are quite fun to hang out with. So it was a pretty decent start to the year.
- [05:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, if you come to the States, just go to any part of Florida. I don't know if fun hanging out with seems a little euphemistic, but I feel like you, you still have a good time with them no matter what. And, you know, sometimes you can get a sick pair of boots.
- [05:59]
B
True, true. Or a leather bag or. Yeah, I didn't realize how much of these things are selling. Anyway, yeah, we'll look out for the story. It's pretty cool.
- [06:07]
A
Anyway, thank you to our pals at Spotify who graciously let us use their studio all the time. As always, bonus episodes@patreon.com Underworldpodcast or you can sign up right on Spotify or on iTunes merchunderworldpod.com for the T shirts and everything else, or you can email us@theworldpodcastmail.com for whatever you want. Tell us about your day, but especially reach out if you want to advertise with us or send us free stuff.
- [06:32]
B
Yeah, a quick bullet point from my end. I would like a duffel bag, running shoes. I need an E reader. I'd quite like an air rifle as well to kill that goddamn rabbit in my garden. That thing needs to go. Yeah, any of those. Thank you.
- [06:45]
A
I just like, like a Japanese heritage menswear company. Dude, we would just, we wouldn't even charge you. We just advertise it for free. Just send us nice denim, you know, make it. Yeah, make it happen. Speaking of guns and clothes, we are here to talk about Vincent Gigante, New York mobster legend. And just a quick note, two of the main sources for this episode are the Larry McShane book, the Life and crimes of mafia boss Vincent Gigante, Vincente Gigante. And the encyclopedic Five Families book by Selwyn Robb, which is just like a massive, massive book that goes into detail on all the five family stuff in New York. Definitely pick that up if you have like, if you want to read a thousand page book on the New York Mafia, which you might want to if you listen to this podcast. Vincent Chin Gigante is born in 1928 to parents who come over in 1921 from Napoli Dapoli. The family Settles in Granite Village, which back then was not filled with NYU nerds or fent tweakers and people trying to get you to go see a comedy show. Back then, it was still very, very Italian. And this is where kind of little Vinnie carves out his niche. This is his stomping grounds, Washington Square park, that whole area. Now, his nickname, Chin, it actually comes from his mother's pronunciation of Chin Censo, which is pronounced Chin Censo and means Vinnie or little Vincent in Italian. His friends, they just shorten it to Chin because, you know, there are like a million Vinnies running around lower Manhattan in the 1920s, 1930s. But the nickname, it actually sticks for life. He has four brothers, and three of them become involved in the life, while the youngest one becomes a priest, which feels like a very classic story from. From back then. Chin isn't the best student, so he drops out at 16 and starts racking up arrests for small time things. Fencing stolen goods, auto theft, arson, gambling and stuff like that. Actually, that's more like maybe medium time things, you know, like not entirely, not entirely small. If you're like setting fires and stealing cars, the charges result in small fines, so they're just dismissed entirely. Back then, it feels like you get away with a lot of. A lot of crime. Until the time he gets busted for being a runner on the Brooklyn College campus. That's someone who collects bets for the bookies or the numbers for, like, a larger gambling operation. In the 1940s, Chin gets into professional boxing, and he's. He's a solid fighter. He ends up with a pretty good record, 21 wins in 25 fights. He's got a good punch. They say good punch on that guy. He fights in mostly small clubs around the city as a light heavyweight. The Mafia back then is heavily involved in prize fights, and he's managed by Thomas, Tommy Ryan Eboli, who's a big player in the Luciano crime family, which in the late 40s is headed by the infamous Frank Costello.
- [09:20]
B
I'm actually thinking about getting back into boxing myself. Danny does it like one of those white collar gyms? Of course. Does it scream sort of cool ripped dad in his 40s, or does it just scream sad ripped dad in his 40s? I guess it could go.
- [09:34]
A
It's the best, best exercise and stress reliever there is, man. I got back into it recently. No, like, all the good gyms in New York are hard to come by, are super expensive, so it's a little, little touch and go. But yeah, dude, definitely, definitely. I mean, Everything you do at this point is just we, you know, not the.
- [09:52]
B
Yeah, nice.
- [09:52]
A
No, I think I, I. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I do it, dude. Learn how to play guitar. Why not buy a convertible? You deserve it, man. You work hard.
- [09:59]
B
Yeah, okay, I'll buy a convertible. I've got a bike.
- [10:03]
A
Yeah, sure. By the early 1950s, detectives working organized crime in the city classified Chin as someone working their way up the ladder of a CR of the crime families. More of a wannabe who serves as a muscle for loan shark and gambling operations than like a leader at this point. They also though they think he's a hitman. That's kind of right where the cold open happens. And we left it with Chin shooting Costello, the boss of the family, in, in the head. But it turns out that Chin only grazes Costello. He survives and wasn't really all that hurt. It's like that time Cameron got shot. I think they were trying to steal his lambo in, like, D.C. and he just drove himself to the hospital.
- [10:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking that, you know, it was amazing that he batted number six for Australia after all that as well. Are we talking about the same guy?
- [10:43]
A
One of these cricket jokes that I'm just never gonna understand, huh?
- [10:47]
B
We gotta keep Australians listening. Come on.
- [10:49]
A
There is a dedicated audience of people who get those, like, understand what you're talking about and, like, leave comments. And I respect that. They do. I mean, I don't. And 95% of people listening don't, but the 5% that do, I think they really. So, yeah, but yeah, still. Still not good for him to shoot the boss of a family in the head. So he goes on the run, and while it technically is a failed hit, it actually gets the job done because Costello retires from the mob, leaving Vito Genovese as the boss of the family. Hence, the new family name being the Genovese crime family. And that's the one that sticks to this day. Chin turns up three months after the shooting to turn himself into the police. He gets booked for attempted murder. However, he immediately makes $100,000 bail, which, I don't know, whatever that is in 1957. It's a lot of money, so obviously Genovese must have paid for it. And not only that, but Genovese gets him one of the most expensive and best defense lawyers in the city. So Chin goes to trial in the spring of 1958, and Costello's doorman, who witnessed the entire incident, he fingers Chin as the shooter. But Costello is called to testify next, and he says he can't identify Chin. You know, it's like still the days of Omerto, like old school Mafia stuff where you kept your mouth shut. Unlike now, where he'd probably, like, get called out for it on like, a Mafiosos podcast or do an entire series about it. When the trial concludes in the courtroom, Chin apparently goes over to Costello and gives him a sincere thanks a lot, Frank. So it's looking pretty good for Chin, right? He does the hit, even though not successfully, for his mentor, and his mentor becomes boss afterwards. And Costello has no hard feelings about the attempted hit. So much so that apparently, years after the hit, Costello's lawyer walks into his apartment and he's eating dinner with Vincent Chin Gigante. So it's kind of like, you know, those guys know how to. Knew how to put grudges in the past.
- [12:34]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [12:35]
A
A lot of. Yeah, I mean, maybe not all the time, but, like, that's. To forgive a guy who shot you in the head is pretty, you know, it's pretty. Maybe he reached enlightenment or something. Like, that's pretty. It shows how to turn the other cheek. So good. Good for Frank Costello. So Chin is priming. Priming to have a good Mafia career. But within three months, he and Genovese get arrested along with 35 other mob guys and an international narcotics conspiracy. Benavaci is indicted as the ringleader, and Chin is charged as the Prince, as his principal aide, for importing mass quantities of drugs from Europe, Cuba, Mexico and Puerto Rico into the States with the help of the Sicilian Mafia.
- [13:12]
B
So would that be heroin via, like, the French Connection at this point, or weed or what would it, what would it be?
- [13:18]
A
I believe it's heroin sort of under the umbrella of the French Connection. Uh huh.
- [13:22]
B
Okay.
- [13:23]
A
But I feel like it was. If it was straight up French Connection, it would be the Corsicans, right? Not the Sicilian Mobile.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah, but I think there were. There were some crossover.
- [13:30]
A
They did work together, right?
- [13:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [13:32]
A
So I assume it's. It's. It's that similar sort of sort of action. In 1959, Chin and Genovese get convicted. Genovese gets sent into 15 years, and he eventually dies in prison. And Chin gets sentenced to seven years and sent to Lewisburg. Chin would have gotten a longer sentence, but the judge got a bunch of letters from residents of Greenwich Village in Little Italy talking about Chin's good character, even though the prosecutors heavily question how real these letters actually are, considering a lot of mention of Chin's work with underprivileged youth, which he didn't. He just didn't do, like, there was no such work. Is there like a. I mean, there's a social services Minneapolis joke there, but I like to think that I'm above that, you know, like, we're. We're weeks. We're weeks past it. I feel like it was right away, maybe you make that joke, you lean in. But I think right now, like, we can do better. So Chin heads off to Lewisburg, where he gets, like, he's a model inmate, doesn't get in trouble and just does his time good enough to get paroled around five years or so, and then he's back on the street. The Genovese family, while Chin is locked up, it's overseen by, like, a panel of sorts. I guess a panel might be the wrong word. Like a number of high ranking guys, which includes his former boxing manager, Thomas Eboli. And also, this is very important during this time, the family provides seed capital to Morris Levy to start a record label. And this is very important because Morris Levy is the basis of the Hesh character in the Sopranos. And that's just, you know, we need to know that and appreciate that, you know, it is a hit. This is not a hit. All that. Although I still kind of think that Visiting Day kind of did rock like, they were right for the time. I don't know if everyone else feels the same way. When Chin gets out, him and Levy become close associates, and Chin and the fellows are always hanging out at the record label offices.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah. Also, Jerry Adler, RIP he died in August, I think it was. And Sopranos, I keep forgetting that it first aired in 1999, which is. It's quite depressing, really. Feels like it was yesterday in my head. I don't know.
- [15:28]
A
They had a bad movie like, two years ago that was close to yesterday.
- [15:31]
B
Oh, was it bad? I didn't even want to watch it because I assumed it was going to be bad.
- [15:34]
A
It was not. It was medium. It was not good. They could have done a lot, a lot better. But why no spin offs, you know? Like, Game of Thrones is on its, like, second spinoff starting next week. We have no Soprano spinoffs?
- [15:46]
B
Yeah. That's nuts, man. There's like a million characters. You could do a. You could do anything.
- [15:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, anything. The Artie Buco spinoff alone would win every award possible. Like, I want to know how he's doing 20 years later. Anyway, okay, Chin is released. He's bumped up to capo for a crew operating at a Greenwich Village. With his mafia career on the rise, Chin moves his family, wife and kids to the Jersey burbs of old Tappan, New Jersey. And much like Johnny Sack, when he comes to Jersey, Chin does, in fact stick his beak in when, in 1969, he's indicted on charges of bribing the entire old Tappan police force, which sounds like a lot, but it's only five people. To be fair, he wanted the cops to kind of let him know and give him a heads up about possible surveillance and investigations by other law enforcement agencies like the feds, the police force. They all end up getting fired. But Chin has got something up his sleeve, something that's gonna become, like, the stuff of mafia legend and basically become his calling card for decades. When Chin first learns he's being investigated for bribery, he starts going to shrinks, right? He hits up the nuthouse. So by the time he's indicted, his lawyers have a whole, like, record and plenty of letters from psychiatrists saying that Chin's off his rocker, even a candidate for electroshock treatment. So I actually think. I think they should actually bring back electroshock treatment. Like, I don't know how you can. You can go on social media right now, like, look at people, what they're doing and saying, and be like, actually, it's good. Society did away with electroshock treatment. Like, maybe that's what we're. That's what we're missing right now.
- [17:13]
B
Yeah, bring back electroshock. I mean, another one of those hot takes that make us way richer. Slavery is great. Tiger woods is bad at golf.
- [17:19]
A
Oh, well, that's. These are very. Come on. These are. That's very, very. Relax.
- [17:24]
B
But do we not do electric therapy? Do we not. I don't know.
- [17:28]
A
They might. I feel like. Oh, you know who does it? That guy. The guy who's obsessed with being immortal and aging backwards.
- [17:36]
B
Brian Johnson.
- [17:36]
A
Brian. Brian Johnson.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah.
- [17:38]
A
But he does it on his genitals. On his manhood.
- [17:42]
B
Yeah.
- [17:42]
A
To. To increase his nighttime excitement.
- [17:47]
B
Good. Good for him.
- [17:48]
A
That's a trick. That's a. That's a real thing. I'm not making. This isn't, like, me making it up. Like, he was sharing the data. He was doing it.
- [17:56]
B
He shocked God.
- [17:57]
A
That was his electoral shock. He claims it works. I'm just saying, you know, I. I think I would.
- [18:02]
B
I would suggest there's a causation and correlation problem there, but, yeah, sure. Why not lean into. Bring back electroshock therapy on. On your penis. Let's do that without getting.
- [18:12]
A
Yeah, I was trying. Not. How do we move on from this. How do I just start talking about Vincent?
- [18:15]
B
Yeah. Mad, crazy Vinny Chin. I don't know, Just. Just die.
- [18:20]
A
The whole crazy act. The whole crazy act, it actually works. The judge buys it, and Chin is deemed unfit to stand trial. The judge concludes that the police officers were just taking bribes from a paranoid resident who fantasized that he was being persecuted by the law. I mean, this is. This is like a solid move right here, you know, the insanity plea, but actually, like building up to it, getting it verified. And. And it works for. For a while. For a long time, actually. As we're Gonna see, in 1969, Vito Genovese dies in jail and a different mobster takes over as boss. He doesn't last long. He's indicted and in 1970, then Eboli, the former boxing manager, he takes over as official boss of the Genovese crime family. Looking to cement his leadership over his rivals, he allegedly takes a $4 million loan from the boss of bosses, Carlo Gambino, head of the Gambino crime family, to start a drug trafficking ring. The story goes that Gambino, working with another Genovese bigwig, actually wants to take out Eboli. And when he couldn't pay him back after the debt, they have grounds to kill him, which they do in 1972.
- [19:18]
B
So you just start a tech startup. You don't do this stuff you tell. You get to tell folks you're a serial entrepreneur. If you fail, you get to write a book about how noble your failure is. You just make more money. It's great. Do that, don't do any of this stuff.
- [19:31]
A
This. I don't know if there was much of a tech industry in 1961, to be honest with you.
- [19:36]
B
There's different sort of tech, hello, IBM. But yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true.
- [19:42]
A
The guy who takes over is Philly Benny Squint Lombardo. And he's described by a high ranking Genovese member as an extremely protective man who wanted to stay in the background and keep the heat off himself. So the opposite of like the Instagram your crimes kind of guy. He delegates a lot of his power to underbosses and even allows others to front for him and attend commission meetings as like the representative of the Genovese family. This is where the Genovese family kind of cements their reputation by investigators as like the most secretive Mafia family and the most sophisticated one, with some even referring to them as like the Ivy League of the Mafia. And it's the. That secrecy and use of Front bosses that, you know, has us even to this day not knowing if there was a boss or a ruling panel when Vito Genovese goes to jail. Anyway, the boxing manager rubout works out well for Chin because his base of operations was Greenwich Village. So Chin inherits his gambling operations, which back then is like a multi million dollar operation. His territory extends all the way from the Battery, which is like way downtown, up to 14th Street. We're talking hundreds of thousands of people living there, maybe even not probably hundred thousand, I wouldn't say millions at that point. And any bookie operating needs permission from him and to pay a cut. With some going up to 50% of their profits, Chin also becomes the point person of the Genovese family in dealing with the other mob family. So like a, like a diplomat of sorts. He's even dealing with the so called Concrete Club, which is when for the families basically form this thing that has control over the entire concrete business in New York City through bid rigging, like which companies get the jobs, and in return, they get a 2% kickback for every contract that goes out, which is like an incredible amount of money. Think about all the concrete that gets poured in New York City, which is like just an insane amount of money going through that. My dear listeners, it is a new year, colder days. This is the moment when your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. And if you're craving a winter reset, you need some new material. You need some new stuff to look good. Start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design, and enduring quality. So you stay warm, you look sharp, you look good, and you feel your best all season long. They've got everything you need. They've got the Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede jackets, and outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and still look good. And it's super, super affordable. The outerwear is especially impressive, right? Think down jackets, wool coats, Italian leather outerwear that keeps you warm when it's actually cold. And each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. They cut out the middlemen, so you save on price. You know, I got the. Let me see the Mongolian cashmere sweater right here. And this thing, I mean, this thing wears great, wears better than, like, stuff that I paid four times the price for. You know, it doesn't like, you know, if they drop a fortune on it, it still looks good. And it's basically better than, like the much more expensive stuff, especially for Cashmere, right? It's ridiculously soft, it doesn't break the bank, and I look great in it. I'm not gonna lie to you guys. I look fantastic. So refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quints.comworld for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e1.com/ Underworld. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Underworld u n d E R W O R L D Chin may be sort of inspired by his new boss's sense of self protection. He starts making frequent but like short stays in insane asylums, especially when there's word of pending mob indictments of the Genovese family coming down. In fact, Chin also really amps up his crazy routine, right. He's seen occasionally shuffling through the streets of Greenwich Village, sometimes with his priest brother or a different mafioso guy walking with him in a bathrobe and worn out pajamas. On occasion, he even takes out a schwants and just starts peeing in the middle of the sidewalk. Which is actually what a lot of people do right now in Greenwich Village.
- [23:55]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say that, that, that sounds pretty par for the course from what I've seen out there.
- [24:00]
A
Yeah, definitely. A lot more, A lot more regular, but not regular from like, you know, a mafia boss. It's very, that's a very new thing for him to do. And this thing like what he's doing, it always sounds really silly when you used to read about Vinny Di Chin Gigante, but it, it works like it legitimately works. He's continuously getting out of grand jury investigations and other types of investigations before they even get going. Because his shtick is so good, he often fools the government strengths to, to add to like the testimony of his own, which I think is like really maybe the assumption was that like mob guys are so concerned with their image and like presenting this like debonair or kind of like put together tough guy thing that like anyone doing that is probably doing it for real. I don't know. But it's insane to me that it actually works. Yeah, but some of the feds, they, they really start thinking that he's just like loco in the cocoa, just completely nuts. To quote Selwyn Rob in the Five Families book, Chin's strategy was more successful than he realized. He was unaware that his insanity charade had pulled the wool over the eyes of numerous FBI, state and city investigators. They considered Vincent Chin Gigante a comical mafia Sideshow. Some were uncertain about his mental state. Others thought he was legitimately loony. None recognized how much power the strange man from Sullivan street actually wielded in the Genovese family. At that point, Chin is operating out of a social club down on Sullivan street in Little Italy, where the front windows are completely blacked out. Inside, several signs are hanging on the wall. One that is placed above the payphone says, quote, loose lips sink ships. And one says, the enemy is listening. And another sign says, tough guys don't squeal. And finally, don't talk. This place is bugged. It's very, like, a very live laugh, love. Like, when you're at, like, a terrible boutique hotel in, like, Chicago with the worst slogans ever framed in the wall about, like, living life on your own. I don't know your own rules, or whatever it is, you know? Or it's like when you set your. Your phone screen to say, like, don't call her. Even. Even the mob needs reminders. Sometimes I love.
- [26:01]
B
I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food or stuff like this.
- [26:05]
A
Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty. That's.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah, that's good.
- [26:07]
A
That's good. Should we make that. Should we make that our merch?
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, why not?
- [26:11]
A
Yeah, that. At the front of T shirts on the back. The Idol podcast. That's a good. I haven't actually heard that one. That's. That's pretty.
- [26:16]
B
I would hang that. Yeah. Is it gin o' clock or move over coffee? This is a job for Prosecco, that kind of thing. Yeah. I've got loads of these. We could go on forever, you know?
- [26:26]
A
You know. You know a lot of these. Are there any. Can you show us your room right now? Are there any?
- [26:31]
B
No, but it's covered in them. I've actually got some new tattoos as well, but I'll leave them for the next episode. Yeah.
- [26:37]
A
As. As Chin becomes more prominent in the family, he also comes up with a new rule that is you never, ever say his name in conversation, ever. If you want to refer to him, you either point at your chin or make the letter C. Just. Just like in Bompton, you know, there's actually, like, a Michael Franzese Jr or Michael Franzese clip fucking Franzese Jr, Michael Franzese clip of him talking about this how, like, you couldn't see it and, like, if you got caught, like, Chin would be fear. Like, there would be consequences to pay. He also becomes, like, very infamous for never saying anything on wiretaps, sometimes even just whistling into the phone to annoy Investigators. He has the social club checked for bugs monthly. And if sensitive Mafia business needs to be discussed, there's a sliding door that leads to an apartment building where it all takes place. Chin also sleeps mostly during the day, starting his day at 5pm with the thinking being that if the FBI works, the FBI will work way less on the midnight shift. So it's safe to say that, like, if he was alive today, he would just be disgusted by, like, all the podcasts and Instagramming. Your crime generation, you know, this is not a. Chin was not built for this world.
- [27:44]
B
Does he. Does this guy have a family? Kids? I feel like all these mob bosses have, like, six kids, and they work from, like, dusk till dawn. I don't know. It's like, undersold, man. Like, part of this life is that you're going to be a crap dad, but I don't know. Have you got a Sopranos quote for that as well?
- [28:00]
A
I'm sure somewhere, but that's a great question. He had two families.
- [28:03]
B
Oh, okay.
- [28:06]
A
He had one. His old school wife in Jersey and then his guma in. In, I think, on the Upper east side. Then I think he had kids with both of them.
- [28:14]
B
Wow, that's cool.
- [28:15]
A
I mean, this guy was burning the mineral with both. Both families. You know, he really, like work ethic, you know?
- [28:21]
B
Yeah, that really went out. I mean, do people do bigamy anymore? That's like. It's kind of gone out of fashion.
- [28:26]
A
Isn'T it, you know, expensive.
- [28:29]
B
Bring back electroshock and bigamy.
- [28:31]
A
It's. I think it's really expensive to have a second family at this point.
- [28:34]
B
That's true.
- [28:35]
A
Especially in the Tri State area.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah. Cost of living has really gone up in 1977. Sammy the Bull meets with Chin to discuss mob business and is told by his fellow mobster at this meeting that Chin is now the consigliere of the family. So he's, you know, moved up from capo. In another meeting that Sammy the Bull tends with Chin in the late 1970s, and you guys know all we know about all the meetings that Sammy the Bull attended with his boss, Paul Castellano, to have a mini commission meeting with other mafia bigwigs, Chin shows up in a suit and a shave face. Sammy says that at this meeting, Ching takes the lead and says that he feels the commission meetings should only be strictly for Cosa Nostra meetings, not just business or money. He further says that this means setting policy and, like, life or death issues like preventing mob wars. He's tired of attending meetings to Discuss things like union disputes and the distribution of money between the families, insisting that this should be settled at lower level kapo meetings. Sammy quotes Chin saying, I've put a lot of time into this crazy act, and I don't want to get caught in any of these meetings or picked up or bugged.
- [29:33]
B
So, like, I don't know, like, huger man about this world. Are they closely linked then, to the Cosa Nostra in Sicily? Like, are they working really, really closely with the Italian mob, or is it completely separate world?
- [29:45]
A
Completely separate world. I mean, they did work together, and, I mean, come on. Remember when Tony goes to Italy? No, they did work together, and they were definitely business done for various things, but, like, they operated separately from the Cosa Nostra in Sicily, for sure.
- [30:02]
B
Cool. Thank you.
- [30:05]
A
All right, then we get this. This crazy situation around that time with the Philly mob, which we actually go into detail in the Joey Merlino episode. So I'm not going to do too much here, but basically, one of the underlings in the Philly mob wants to take out the boss because he doesn't let them sell drugs. So he approaches the Genovese family, who sort of like, kind of tacitly give him the. The okay to take him out, even though they don't really, as we'll see, they do not bring this to the commission because the Philly mob boss, he wasn't good with the Gambinos. Specifically Carlo. Carlo's kind of their main rival. Carlo dies, though, of old age in 1976. And soon after, in 1977, New Jersey legalizes gambling, paving the way for casinos in Atlantic City. Now, the Philly mob's main man in Atlantic City is a guy named Nicky Scarfo, who is a complete psycho, but he's close with Chin and the Genovese guys. Is this making sense or is this too many names?
- [30:55]
B
Nah, all good. All good. I'm there. Yeah, I'm with you.
- [30:57]
A
Basically, Chin wants the current Philly boss, who is close with the Gambinos, taken out so this guy Scarfo can take over. So in 1980, that Philly boss is taken out by that underling, but the rest of the commission, who had not Scarfo, by the other underling who wanted their permission and thought he had it, but the rest of the commission, who had no idea, they're pissed off because you can't kill the head of a Mafia family without commission approval. Chin assures the commission not to worry, that the Genovese family is going to take care of it. So the filly Underling and his brother in law, they get called up to New York City to meet with Chin and they're thinking that this is like their coronation because the Genovese family are the ones who said they have the all clear from New York to take him out. But Chin, being a mobster, double crosses them. They're tortured and killed and found with a bunch of holes in their bodies and $20 bills in their mouth.
- [31:45]
B
They're such men of honor, these guys. They're really, really great.
- [31:49]
A
Yeah. And Nikki Scarfo, who Chin liked, he makes off with a lot of the stuff that the former mob boss controlled, like the unions in Atlantic City. And the Genovese family gained control of a multi million dollar loan sharking business in northern New Jersey that the Philly underboss used to control. That's the underling that, you know, thought he had permission to take them out and gets taken out himself. The Genovese family approaches Scarfo about becoming boss of the Philly mob. But he turns it down because his best pal, the chicken man, is actually the current Philly underboss and technically next in line. I mean, we know, we know what happens to him, Sean, don't we? And we know what happens to his house too. Just everything blowing up. And then Nikki Scarfo becomes boss of the Philly mob and joins the commission. And the Genovese's pretty much have guaranteed that they have his vote forever for orchestrating it. It's basically a clean sweep for Chin and the Genovese family as they not only get millions in this lucrative loan sharking business, but now they're guys, the head of the Philly mob and, and not the Gambinos guy. And the Gambinos, in terms of money and power, are the Genovese family's biggest rivals at that point. But they're more kind of like friendly rivals than guys at War. In 1981, Genovese underboss Anthony Fat Tony Salerno has a stroke. By the way, I just, I love a mob guy named Fat Tony. You know, maybe it's because of the Simpsons or what. It just seems like the best, like Fat Tony or Fat Sal. He's just got the best, the best mob nickname, you know. Also, I forgot to. I think we talked about this in the, in the chat, but like Gigante corrected to autocorrected to gigabytes. So I was writing like Vinnie Gigabytes for a minute in the script, which I just feel like would be a great, a great mob name for like the 55 year old mobster who figures out, like, crypto, you know, in, like, the late 2010s.
- [33:28]
B
Hey, Vinny Gigabytes.
- [33:30]
A
That's Vinny Gigabytes over here. He'll. He'll. He'll. He'll give up with the bitcoin, you know, but he gets killed in, like, 2021 because he invests all their money in. In NFTs of, like, aliens, and then it all goes to zero. So that's a good bit.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah, you should do it.
- [33:44]
A
It's not a bad bit. Right, Vinnie Gigabytes. Yeah, that's pretty good. There should be a Vinnie Gigabytes out there or like a Sal Gigabyte, something like that. Chin and the top gen of AC Brass, they go see Fat Tony in the hospital. They have a meeting of the minds. Basically, Benny Squints, the aging boss, because, remember, he's still technically the boss, is also in the same hospital for a different illness. And it's decided that Chin is taking over as boss. At 53 years old, fat Tony kind of takes over as the front boss, you know, like. Kind of like Uncle Jun, you know, just fronting his boss, but whatever. Continuing the Benny Squints tradition of having, like, various front bosses and keeping the top man, in this case Chin, shielded from law enforcement. Everyone in life, though, they really know who's running the Genovese family, and that's Vincent the Chin Gigante. And if you talk to. If you see, like I said, the Franzese thing or others, people really talk about how Chin was, like, very, very well respected and feared. Like, he was. He was the guy at this point in in time. The Genovese family, they're involved in all the usual mob activities that you would imagine in the 80s, right? Gambling, loan sharking, construction city corruption, all that type of jazz. But one of the biggest moneymakers for Chin personally is the docs. And this dates back to the 1960s, when the docks are split up between the Gambinos and the Genovese families. The Gambinos get Brooklyn and Staten island, and the Genovese family get Manhattan. And that pygmy thing over in Jersey.
- [35:06]
B
What is the pygmy thing? Well, like a little, little, tiny, little, tiny port.
- [35:10]
A
It's a lot of Sopranos reverence here. It's what the New York families refer to as the Sopranos in the show.
- [35:19]
B
Ah, damn, I am going to watch it all over again, and I don't really have.
- [35:26]
A
Yeah, I mean, when you do these episodes, it's hard not to make 40,000. I take a bunch of references out. It's just. There's just so many. It's too many. I get, I get, I get overexcited. And how the docks works is they control all the longshoremen unions, right? The guys who take everything off the trucks, they tap into their funds. They also collect a $20 flat fee for every container unloaded at the docks. Things also disappear from the containers or from the trucks leaving the docks. Chin personally is estimated to be making up to $2 million a year off the docks himself. And that's early 80s money. So that could have bought you like 47 houses at that point. And to quote one of the feds who was investigating Chin about his mafia management style, despite being feared, quote, chin was very well liked by his crew because he didn't ask for a lot of money from his capos, his soldiers. And Sammy the Bull adds, he ain't that interested in the money. He already had a ton of money. His biggest problem was where to hide it. He didn't take money from most of his captains.
- [36:18]
B
I think. I think he's a little bit interested in the money.
- [36:21]
A
I mean, I think he's a lot interested, but, you know, it's one of those things I often like, wonder about, like, why. Why nickel and dime your guys?
- [36:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why nickel and dime your murderous gangster friends?
- [36:31]
A
Right, right. It just seems like you could, you could buy a lot of goodwill by like easing back on some of that stuff. When you're doing, you're doing pretty well. It seems like even having two families now, having to support two families in the tri state area, was managing his money well. He also continues his yearly retreats to the psych ward. In the early 80s, he shows up with the same symptoms every time. He gets prescribed meds and then he doesn't take them. But it's got all that paperwork, which is a good thing to have. In 1983, the FBI and NYPD, they launch a joint task force where each of the five families gets their own team of agents investigating them. With the main goal being to bring down the boss of each of the families and, and any other high ranking members they can take down. The thinking is that if each family has their own squad of investigators working on just that, family things will be a lot more efficient, which, you know, makes a lot of sense. It's surprising they didn't do that before. This is the most major effort to bring down the five families at that point. And this is when Rudy Giuliani gets sort of fired up and leads all this stuff. And this earns his rep as a fearless prosecutor going after the Mafia that he later throws away with shoe polish and other insane things.
- [37:38]
B
Yeah. Gotta be one of the weirdest character arcs in. In recent times. Very, very strange dude.
- [37:45]
A
He was a crusading hero in the 80s. Yeah. Like nothing else. Taking on, like, the scariest people in America at the time. Death threats constantly, like, protection. It was. It's pretty nuts. It would make a great crummy Netflix doc. Not, you know, doc. I think I've done doc series.
- [38:03]
B
What about Giuliani the Musical?
- [38:05]
A
That through the year. I mean, it would. It would. You could do three seasons on Netflix in like a. Like a Hulu show sort of, you know?
- [38:10]
B
Yeah.
- [38:11]
A
Give it, like, the wework treatment, I think. I think it would be great. The FBI, nypd, and NYPD still think Fat Tony's the boss of the Genovese family. That's how good Chin is at sort of playing the agents. But enough of them still think that he's, like, a major player in the family that he starts getting major surveillance. He, of course, seems to realize he's being watched, and he really amps up the crazy routine. In one incident, when investigators come into his Grand Village mom's apartment because Chin claims he still lives there with his mom instead of his townhouse uptown with his mistress or his home in the suburbs in Jersey, the investigators find a fully naked Chin taking a shower beneath an open umbrella, which, Sean, if you. If you really think about it, that defeats the purpose of a shower. You know, like, it just doesn't. Like holding an umbrella under it. Right. Like what? I mean, stop. Think about it for a second, Sean. Picture it in your head. What's the point? What's going on?
- [39:00]
B
It's too crazy. It's nuts. An umbrella inside, Inside. It's inside the shower. It's inside.
- [39:06]
A
Inside the shower, bud.
- [39:07]
B
Jesus.
- [39:09]
A
I just don't. I think that's dramatized in that show about Bumpy Johnson. I think that FX did, but also, like, these. These, like, bits just seem so contrived to me.
- [39:22]
B
Yeah.
- [39:23]
A
The fact that people were falling fault isn't like, come on, bud. That you can't do a little better than that. I don't know if I was going to fake being insane. If I was going to fake being insane. I feel like there's. There's better ways of doing it, you know?
- [39:35]
B
Yeah. I mean, starting your own podcast from scratch for and for six years is a good way to start. Yeah.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah. You know, there's no. There was no Social media back then, so it was very hard to display mental illness, which now you could just fucking log on and 90% of people could be diagnosed. But back then it was a lot hard to do. He could have just become an influencer. Now I'm easy. It'd just be like a lot of get ready with me. That'd be amazing, dude. Yeah, that'd be amazing for like a six year old mob boss who wants to prove he's insane, just starts doing get ready with me in the morning. Just like, just taking a. Taking like a bite out of his chapstick or like using his moisturizer to brush his teeth. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing.
- [40:14]
B
I'd be down, but. Right.
- [40:16]
A
It's a funny image.
- [40:18]
B
No, that's what we're here for.
- [40:20]
A
It's a weird. It's been a weird episode. These chin stories, they become like a legend among the feds that are watching them, right? They trade stories about him. Kind of like, let's see who. Who was watching him when he did the craziest thing. You know, he's whipping it out and peeing in the street. He's talking to parking meters and talking to trees, talking to imaginary pets and invisible friends. It just, it all seems so obviously nonsense. It's wild that, that some of the professionals actually bought it. Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
It's giving the Blackadder pencils in the nose for Brits listening for a certain vintage which is even older than me. Did you ever see that show?
- [40:53]
A
No idea what you're talking about.
- [40:54]
B
Oh, man. I'm going to send you a few links after. This is one of the greatest. But yeah, carry on. That's one.
- [40:59]
A
What is it?
- [40:59]
B
It's. It's Rowan ATKINSON not being Mr. Bean, which is when he's actually good.
- [41:04]
A
Man, I couldn't watch you take that back.
- [41:08]
B
I hate Mr. Bean. I couldn't watch, man. Oh, my God, dude, what is.
- [41:12]
A
What is wrong with you?
- [41:13]
B
I can't believe that Americans think he's Mr. Bean. He's like, he's Blackadder. That's what he's good for.
- [41:18]
A
Like, he's Mr. Bean and we miss him. We need more of him right now.
- [41:24]
B
Bring back electroshock. Bring back bigger movies.
- [41:27]
A
Who hates Mr. Bean? Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer so, yeah, he's doing impromptu monologues on the street. One of the lead investigators recalls watching him in disbelief as Chin climbs into a waiting car in his crazy costume with disheveled hair and the bathrobe and empty look on his face. And he comes out sometime later from the backseat in a beautiful suit looking like a million bucks. One of his daughters actually says that, like, it messed with her a bit because she would be completely normal at home, then put on his crazy suit and go outside as soon as he left the house would just be insane. Which. How would it mess? Like, obviously you'd understand.
- [42:30]
B
Does he. Is he telling them?
- [42:31]
A
He's just like.
- [42:31]
B
I mean, he's not telling me he's got another.
- [42:33]
A
So I assume they would get it at this point. But he's, you know, he's a method actor. He's hitting the streets and getting into character. And he still, besides all this, maintains his really tight protective nature. Not saying his name, you know, pointing to the Chin, making the C with your fingers. It becomes underworld law for all the other families after he becomes boss. And it's enforced, right. When a Columbo member, you know, that's another one of the five families, he's caught in a wiretap accidentally mentioning Chin's name. Chin sends word to the mobster that if it leads to his indictment, he's gonna take him out in another instant. A Lucchese family associate gets a brutal beating from three of Chin's underlings, which, when a JC Genovese family member hears that associate use Chin's name in a business deal. Sammy the Bull recalls that when he brings up Chin's name making a joke about the construction business, he is chastised by a Genovese captain who tells him, you're going to get me killed. We refer to him like this. And then he touches his chin.
- [43:26]
B
Yeah, if you're in this guy's crew and you get a cut on your chin and you need to call a doctor, then, yeah, don't. Don't do that.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely not. A funny thing, too, is that a few other mobsters kind of see what Chin's doing, and they're like, this is. This is. This is good stuff. They start copying his shtick, and he basically finds out, and he threatens them. He's like, knock it off. This is my thing. You guys are going to water it down if you start doing this, which, you know, more power to him. He was the originator, you know?
- [43:52]
B
Yeah.
- [43:53]
A
In the mid-80s, the family runs into some trouble though, when a member shoots and kills a cop that was tailing him. And usually this is like a big no no with mafiosos because they know what happens next, right? The cops go nuts looking for the killer. They raid Chin social club, they take him outside and talk to him and away from everyone else. And to quote Larry McShane's book about Chin quoting one of the cops, he apologized for what happened, but he took no responsibility. He said nothing off color, no wise ass remarks. He communicated like any other human being. This was just one more indication that he was crazy like a fox. I knew he was sane and he knew I knew that he was sane. It only reinforced what I knew. I do believe that he was concerned on some level that a cop was shot. The cops have a really tough time cracking Chin right in the village, which was still his main base of operations. He has hundreds of people on alert for any potential FBI member in the area, anyone strange that's there. His social club is like an impregnable fortress. There's no getting in there with wires or anything. And the people closest to him are a very, very small circle composed of either like old school mafioso types who would never ever snitch, or people Chin knew his entire life. The few wiretaps they're able to get up and where they can get Chin speaking to someone, they get zero incriminating evidence. Even when Chin does have conversations with the underlings, he speaks in a very quiet, almost whisper like voice. He's paranoid like crazy. And for good reason, because RICO has just become a thing and the Mafia Commission trials are about to get underway. We're talking mid-80s here, right? In February of 85, the task force led by Giuliani indicts nine top mafia figures, with three additional members being indicted shortly after in a massive RICO case, the first major time it's used. The people indicted are the four bosses of the other five families and Fat Tony Salerno. Salerno, who the government thinks is the boss of the Genovese family, even though in reality he's only the front boss. So it actually, it works, right? Chin's the whole having a front boss, not pretending that he pretending he's not the boss completely works. Two underbosses are also indicted and two consiglieres. It's a massive blow for the mob, but kind of a win for Chin since he doesn't get picked up. And they clearly don't think that he's.
- [45:58]
B
The top dog for anyone who's new or doesn't know, like, what. What is rico? What's the significance of rico?
- [46:04]
A
So RICO stands for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. I believe it passes maybe in the 70s, I think in the early 70s, but it's not really used that much. I think it gets picked up maybe in the late 70s, they go off through some cartels with it. In the 80s is when they really start applying it to the mob. But basically what it means is that, like, they can charge the bosses for being involved in a criminal conspiracy, right? They don't have to have direct involvement in every crime as long as it shows that's part of, like, an organization. And it's. The penalties are super, super strict. It's basically a justification to go after organized crime and to hit them really, really hard where, like, you know, one of your soldiers commits a crime. Even if you're not directly involved, if you're overseeing the organization, you can get hit with that. And it completely changes the game in arresting and prosecuting organized criminals, especially the Mafia. And then in 1985, of course, November, we get the famous Paulie Castellano killing. The boss of the Gambino family gunned down outside Spark Steakhouse by a rebel faction of the family led by John Gotti. Chin is not happy about this, right? He wasn't in on it. It's a huge violation of the Mafia code. Also, Chin and Castellano were kind of pals, right? Despite being rival heads of the two most powerful families, they did plenty of multi million dollar deals together and got along well. And this also kind of like, brings a lot of heat on the mob. It was a very public killing. And Gotti and Chin are like polar opposites, right? While Chin sort of shuffles around in ratty clothes and pretends to be a nut and keeps everything low key. Gotti is flashy. Thousand, like $3,000 suits. He loves being a Mafia boss. He loves being on the COVID of the Post. He loves getting attention where Chin does, like, everything in his power to avoid the limelight. Basically the opposite of the dapper down on Gotti wiretaps. You can kind of hear how uncareful he was, right? He's trashing every family, pretty much everybody except for one person. And to quote the Feds, John Gotti was terrified of Gigante. He knew that the genoveses were the most powerful family. Very tough, a vicious family. Chin, on the other hand, he doesn't seem to have much respect for the cop Magna Gotti. With one mobster saying that it was common knowledge that Chin was no fan. A prosecutor working organized crime put it like this, quote. Gigante was the anti Gotti to the extent that Gotti brought law enforcement attention, couldn't avoid electronic surveillance, promoted people he shouldn't have, and created internecine warfare. Gigante was exactly the opposite. No matter how hard we tried, there was no electronic surveillance. People in the family respected him. He resolved problems rather than fomenting them. The people surrounding him were tried and true. You know, Sean, a wise man once said, I never prayed to God. I prayed to Gaudi. But it's an incredible line. But he should have been praying to Gigante. Because that's the sacrifice you make when you avoid the press, right? You don't get mentioned in 90s rap lyrics. Is it worth it, John? I mean, that depends on whether you want to be more rich than famous or whether you want to stay out of prison.
- [48:58]
B
It's the question I keep asking myself every single day.
- [49:05]
A
What have you. What conclusion have you come to right now?
- [49:07]
B
Oh, I'll be rich. Yeah, I'll be rich, please.
- [49:09]
A
Um, yeah, rich 10 years ago now. Yeah, I'll take rich over. Over anything else. Okay, so these guys, there's bad blood between the two. They both have what you would call opposite management styles, I think euphemistically, but they have no choice but to deal with each other. Though Chin, he's already kind of angling to get Gotti dealt with, Right? We went over this in the recent episode about Anthony Gaspipe Caso. But to rehash the condensed version, Chin and Lucchese boss put out a hit on Gotti that gas pipe and his buddies are set to carry out. Chin loans them one of the Genovese's top hitmen, who is an army trained ammunition expert, because they want the hit to be a bomb. See, the American Mafia never really uses bombs at this point in New York, but the Italians do. And Chin doesn't want the potential police blowback from another headline grabbing mob. You know, talking about a mob boss hit or for the Gambino family to know it's him. Exactly. So they figure if they do it this way, the fingers might point elsewhere. But I feel like everyone would have known it was them in the first place. Anyway, so in April 1986, four months after the big Polycastellano strike, the hit Team blow up a car to try to take out Gotti and his underboss in one shot. But due to Gotti at the last second getting in a different car than he was supposed to, they only killed the Gambino underboss, and Gotti is unharmed. Side note, I mean, New York used to be just so exciting, man. You know, Like, I mean, I started covering crime, like, 25 years later, so you still had a little bit of stuff going on, but, like, mob wars like this in the street. Like, can you imagine being one of the tabloid guys back then? I mean, I love, like, Jimmy Breslin and Hamill, but, like, give me this, New York. I'd have an insane column every single week, too.
- [50:42]
B
Yeah. Are you saying that podcasting doesn't give you that same thrill?
- [50:45]
A
I mean, not like being. Not like covering this sort of stuff in the flesh with a done.
- [50:49]
B
You know, but what we're saying, listeners, is that it does. It does. Yeah.
- [50:53]
A
Now, according to Sammy the Bull and like, with all podcasters and especially mob podcasters, you gotta take certain things with a grain of salt, right? He says Gotti is shocked by the hit and didn't know what was going on. And at first they suspect the Genovese family and Chin, though at the same time, they know he's a real big rules guy and really assume that he wouldn't use bombs. According to a former Philly underboss that turns government witness, the Agadi and crew even reach out to the Philly mob for helping them figure out what happened, because it seems so similar to the hit that took out the chicken man and blew up his house too. It's just, you know, what a song, Sean. Like, I'm not ashamed to admit, if you catch me at the right time, just going up the Jersey turnpike at the right at night, pocket full of regrets and bad decisions, I might. I might just shed a tear when the chorus hits, you know, hey, you.
- [51:39]
B
Gotta turn a phrase when you want one, haven't you?
- [51:44]
A
But. But anyway, Gotti actually doesn't seem to know. Like, he really has no idea, which shows you kind of how smart he was at doing his job. And he later saws up to a commission meeting in the fall of 86 with Chin in attendance. He's got this hot new idea, and that's assassinating Rudy Giuliani to stop the trial, which is like, you know, that's real, like, velour jumpsuit brain right there. That sort of. That sort of thinking. It's when the pomade starts kind of seeping in through your scalp and fogs up your decision making process. The Columbo boss, surprisingly, actually backs the idea. But the bosses of three other families, led by Chin, are like, no, no chance. Do not do this. A month or so later, In November of 86, everyone involved in the commission trial gets a hundred year sentences. So I don't know, maybe, maybe he might have actually tried the Gotti plan, who knows? But this leads to a period of like a lot of turnover and transition with the other four families. But remember, the Genoveses are straight because Chin wasn't even picked up, right? They don't know that he's the boss. And as far as these things go, maybe not the easiest thing to quantify, but it sure seems like Chin is now the most powerful commission member and by extension the, the most powerful mobster in America.
- [52:52]
B
So is he now going to stop sort of walking around in a bathrobe and pissing in the street, or does he keep up this Kaiser Soze shtick till the, till the bitter end?
- [53:00]
A
Well, if anything, now you want to ramp up the, the, the crazy Kaiser Soze shtick and, you know, limping and stuff, right? Because now all the other guys are gone. You're the last one standing, right?
- [53:11]
B
He's acting weirder. Is he more powerful now? I don't, I don't get it.
- [53:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's, that's what you gotta do. The ride on the top is sometimes short, like, like leprechauns. What, in 19, dude, I can't. You know, if you're gonna do English cricket references, I'm gonna do 90s rap lyrics.
- [53:32]
B
Revising.
- [53:33]
A
In 1988, Chin gets his first real press when there's an article written about him in the New York Times by Selwyn Rav, the author of the book who wrote the Five Families thing that we use for this episode. And it goes into his odd behavior and how he's like an old school capo, but also how he might soon become the boss of the family, according to mob experts. Which of note, he's been boss now for at least seven years. That's how under the radar he's been. This, though, is nothing compared to what comes next, right? This little bit of attention. A Genovese turncoat, the first Genovese one since 1963, testifies before a Senate subcommittee in D.C. at the end of the year. The Genovese family, at this point, they're still really known for its secrecy. I think only 11 members and associates have ever turned informant at this point, which is far lower than the other families. This informant, though, he tells everyone that Chin is the boss, that the crazy thing is an act. And now Chin has really got a target on his back. And it's about to get worse, because for a decade, four out of the five mob families have been working on a scam involving the Department of House and Urban Development, right? There's bid rigging. It's mob control, construction unions. And for those who don't know what bid rigging kind of means, it means they would. They would put all the bids in versus one another for a project usually government run, usually construction, and determine who was going to win the bid beforehand. And since this was all sort of choreographed and lowest bid wins the contract, it would still be at like a grossly inflated number. And they were the ones who decide who gets that bid. A lot of it has to do with the kickbacks they would get from the companies that were making that bid. So a lot of. I mean, this is newer construction, government construction. You know, everything is putting in a subway elevator is going to cost you $2 billion. So there's a lot of money floating around and a lot of money being skimmed off the top. This was like quintessential New York mob money earning stuff for, and I guess the Italian mob, all mafia is kind of like construction is where the money is, especially government construction. If a non mob company was dumb enough to enter and win the bid, the mob would demand a $2 per window tax or they would mess with their job through the union or just smashing the windows, things like that. Because this whole project was about replacing windows and public housing. Prosecutors say the mob won contracts of $150 million worth out of a total of $191 million worth of contracts. And that is a lot of money to steal. And the mastermind of the scheme, not cousin Brian, but a Genovese family associate, not even a made guy. And the Genovese family in particular profits off the scheme scam heavily. Much more so than the Gambino family. Gotti's actually caught on a wiretap complaining about how little money they were making. He just really. He talked, huh? I mean, the guy was. Guy was a yapper, you know.
- [56:10]
B
Now I can't tell whether you're quoting Gotti Sopranos. You just generally talk like you're in the show, like, what's going on? Are these Goldisms? Are they. Is this Sopranos is 19?
- [56:20]
A
Yapper was the thing we used to say all the time. And now, like the kids saying on Tik Tok. But it, like, guy yaps too much, you know? You never heard that.
- [56:26]
B
That's good.
- [56:27]
A
There's like, that English that. That. That, like, Instagram little two of the guy being, like, talking to the girl. He's like, yup, yap, yap. You know what I'm talking about in the car, man.
- [56:35]
B
I am you. I am feeling so old, and I'm.
- [56:39]
A
I'm speaking to you, saying someone's saying someone. Y. So much is like. It's like an old thing for a while, and now it's become popular again. But it's like, it's been a thing you say forever.
- [56:49]
B
I think I need, like. I think I need. You know, like, politicians have a tape of stuff they read, like, Zeitgeist tape. They learn how young kids are, like, doing stuff. I think I need one of those.
- [56:58]
A
I think I need to get Yapper's.
- [56:59]
B
Not.
- [56:59]
A
I mean, maybe now, but it's like a thing you could always say, like, I yap.
- [57:02]
B
And I know what the word yap means. I just. Yeah, I've not heard it, really. Ah, it's sad. It just shows you how sad my life is. That's. That's really what we're learning.
- [57:12]
A
You're doing great, bud. You're doing great. Anyway, this whole project, it's going to be a big headache for Chin because the associate, he gets caught up in murder and racketed charges because another guy turns informant. And then he turns informant and even agrees to wear a wire for a year and a half while he's talking with not just the Genovese family, but the other three families as well, all about the Windross game, which is completely insane. Like the part this person was risking their life and limb. The fact that the feds are able to convince them to do this is completely insane. It's an important time to make a. A point that we actually try to make often. What, like, the mob in organized crime isn't, like, sexy heists and, like, major trafficking robberies and whatnot. Right. The best scams are literally ripping off government programs to the tune of, like, a few dollars a transaction for something that is done millions of times. It's like how, you know, most multimillionaires are just guys who own, like, regional car dealerships. You know what I'm saying?
- [58:04]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I do.
- [58:06]
A
You do?
- [58:07]
B
I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah.
- [58:09]
A
Okay.
- [58:09]
B
I know things. Some.
- [58:13]
A
This is bad for Jim, obviously. Really bad. His inner circle was dealing with this guy. He was dealing with this guy directly. He actually gets told that this Guy is wearing a wire, but he apparently really likes him and trusts him so much. He has so much of a soft spot for him that he either doesn't believe it or he chooses not to do anything. And by doing anything, I mean, like, whack the guy, which he doesn't do.
- [58:32]
B
He just takes it on the Chin. I mean, there it is. I waited. I waited an hour for that. Was it worth it? No. But was it satisfying?
- [58:42]
A
No, I think it's pretty good. I'm sorry. You should have used it earlier. I mean, it's. It's a solid effort on your part.
- [58:47]
B
Just keep my powder. Joy. Yeah.
- [58:49]
A
Yeah. I don't even know what that mean. What does that mean?
- [58:52]
B
I think it go. I genuinely do know where that phrase comes from, but it's like from the 1500s, so I'm not going to say it because I'm already old enough on this episode.
- [59:00]
A
While the Genovese family had basically avoided the commission trial, the government is now deadly focused on them. And the hits start coming in the late 80s. Nikki Scarfo, Chin's handpicked leader of the Philly mob, is sentenced to basically life in 1989 after his nephew flips on him. And also that year, Morris Levy Hesh, the corrupt record label owner who was under investigation by three different federal grand juries at one point in New York, New Jersey and California for shenanigans of sorts of he gets convicted and sentenced to 10 years, but he refuses to cooperate and he dies a year later. So Chin kind of dodges a bullet because there's thinking that maybe eventually he would have cooperated. Guy was good at keeping his mouth shut. But the biggest hit is an indictment around the same time of chin's consigliere involving 2,500 hours of wire taps and two mob murders, as well as a different plot to kill John Gotti and his brother. Now this hits Chin close to home because this is among the most trusted members of his inner circle. Chin is named as an unindicted co conspirator, but not charged because they didn't have him on the wire. Exactly. The consigliere, though he gets convicted in 1989, he takes his 80 year sentence without a peep. So still still stand up guys, some of these guys. So the Genovese family starting to really take some big hits. And with the window scammer now in federal protection and pulled off the streets, Chin and other families know it's about to get a lot worse. In preparation, Chin has his priest brother file a petition with the courts to declare Chin mentally incompetent and not able to handle his own affairs. And also, I can't pinpoint the exact date, but with Chin's newfound notoriety, the New York tabloids hit him with a great nickname, which is the Oddfather, which, I mean, that is very good work. And had to have been the Post, the greatest newspaper in America.
- [60:43]
B
I really want to read out some Sunday support headlines now, but we would definitely get defunded. All I say is, look up the phrase I blew off the butcher, and, yeah, then you can comment on the show.
- [60:54]
A
But, yeah, this is when he starts. He becomes like a tabloid darling. They start putting him on the COVID in his robe, all that sort. I mean, I remember maybe. Maybe it wasn't then. Maybe it was later in the 90s when his trials were unfolding, but I have, like, a vivid, vivid memory of a photo of him in. On. In his bathrobe on the street, in, like, the. In Greenwich Village on the COVID of the Post. Like, it. It became like a. Like, you know, he became a character in the. So good in the New York media ecosystem. But I guess it makes sense. He was top mafia boss in the city. On May 30, 1990, Chin finally gets arrested at his mother's apartment in Little Italy for the windows case. He's in his bathrobe. He's doing the crazy shtick, reminiscing to his arresting officers about his boxing career, telling him, quote, I was a heavyweight then. I lost weight and became a light heavy. It was a long time ago. I don't remember, you know, if CTE was around back then, he might have actually been able to swing it. You know, he could have. Could have pulled that. But I guess they did not have that diagnosis at that point. When they put Shin in the holding cell, he starts, like, madly stomping around like the floor is covered in roaches. And then finally, when he's in the courtroom, he looks around the crowded courtroom and he says, what a nice wedding. Also, again, this is, like, very low effort, I feel like, you know.
- [62:04]
B
Yeah.
- [62:05]
A
Also arrested is chin's underboss and 13 top mobsters from three other families, including Lucchese boss, the Colombo underboss, and one of Gotti's brothers. Hilariously enough, when the top prosecutor sees Chin for the first time in his attire, he says to, like, his little aide who actually worked the case, quote, have you looked at him? Are you sure he's not fucking nuts? And, of course, Chin pleads insanity. And to determine if Chin is A legitimate nut or not. Four shrinks are appointed, two by the prosecutors and two by the defense over a nine month period over 1990 to 1991. They meet with Qin over 30 times, sometimes at his mom's house, sometimes at the mental ward. You know, he's out on bail. You know, I feel like if you gave me four therapists for nine months, I could probably be normal afterwards. You know, like, I feel like it would just solve you. I feel like maybe like a year and a half and maybe six therapists, but, like, I feel like 30, 30, 30 meets. I could. I could. I could work it out.
- [63:00]
B
Yeah.
- [63:01]
A
I get to the bottom of some.
- [63:02]
B
Kind of bets you're going to be making after nine months of therapy. You might. Might get a few decent ones.
- [63:07]
A
Yeah. You know, and four of them, too. Like, they'll get to the. They'll get to the heart of the matter, I think.
- [63:12]
B
Are they tag teaming or are they going all at once? Because that would be. That would be intense.
- [63:16]
A
Could be. Could be intimidating, you know, but where were we? Okay. Not shockingly. Well, actually, no, this is shocking. Shockingly. All four doctors, which include, you know, two that are appointed by the government, say that Chin is unfit to stand trial. I mean, this guy is like. He's like Timmy Chalamet right here. You know, just. Performance of a life, performance of a lifetime. I mean, get him some awards because, like, it's one thing to have your own shrink say, but to get two government therapists to, like, that's amazing.
- [63:45]
B
Really believe all those years of hard work, man. There's a. There's a lesson in there somewhere.
- [63:49]
A
Yeah, start thinking now about your future. The defense is scrambling at this point. They say that what matters is that Chin was competent in the 1980s when the window scam was initiated, which is apparently a legal Hail Mary. And I have no idea, like, how that makes sense, because why would that matter if you were deemed unfit for trial now? But this isn't a law show, and law is kind of. Kind of boring. The cast. The case drags out until 1997 in no small part because Chin's attorneys are slowing it down, thinking it will work out for him as he gets older and, like, looks crazier. But it kind of backfires because in the 1990s, every mob guy and their mother is flipping and turning informant. And while not many Genovese family members and associates flip the fewest of any family, some big time names, you know, people who had dealings with Chin directly and could testify to his competency are flipping so the case against Chin gets stronger the longer the trial gets delayed. So much so that new charges are brought. Chin is finally convicted in 1997 and gets a 12 year sentence. But, I mean, at this point, he's already had two open heart surgeries. He's really frail, so it's kind of like he's at the end of his rope. But he continues to run the family behind bars, using his son, who isn't in the Mafia, as a messenger between him and the Genovese family. 2002, his son Andrew and Chin are indicted on new charges along with other members. But Chin, this time, he pleads guilty to obstruction of justice and admits the entire crazy routine is a hoax and gets three years added to his sentence. The government actually really wanted him to admit the routine is fake. And Chin did it because he wants to save his son, who was facing up to 20 years, which is why he cops the plea.
- [65:24]
B
Damn. There's the take it on the Chin moment. Now you're saying I went too late, I went too early. That was just before my time, as usual.
- [65:32]
A
Yeah, so. So Andrew, his son, he gets two years in the plea. Chin actually never wanted his kids to be in the mob. And one time at a commission meeting, when Gotti was boasting to Chin about how he made his son, John Gotti Jr. A MAID member, Chin replied with, quote, geez, I'm sorry to hear that. Like, another. Another way of showing that, like, he was actually, I think, like, heads and tail, heads and tails, smarter. Heads and shoulders, smarter above. Smarter than, like, most of these new, newer mob bosses. He dies in prison a year later or a year or two later in 2005 at the age of 77, which, you know, all things considered, pretty solid mob career. But as one investigator said, looking at Chin having to do the fake crazy thing, not really living it up. Right. He kept. He wasn't flashy or showy at all. Always being so hyper vigilant. How is this even enjoyable for Chin? You know? So the question is, like, is it. Is it worth it?
- [66:22]
B
I mean, he gave us a tight 60 minutes of material, so, yeah, I'd say yes. Yeah. Chin. Chin. Vinny. Look, I mean, the puns could have been so much worse for this episode. You gotta stop doing shows on, like, wise guys named Hugh Mungus or whatever. Give me a chance, man.
- [66:37]
A
Yeah, I know I wasn't. My neurons really firing. Can't even speak right now, but. But I think, yeah, you know, hopefully you guys found it entertaining. Patreon.com podcast we'll have a bonus episode up. If not, we will a couple days.
- [66:54]
B
Ago finally get my finger out after Darwin and do that.
- [66:57]
A
I might do one on the Columbus Air Force. So we'll have a bunch coming up. So do that.
- [67:00]
B
Sweet, man.
- [67:01]
A
Sign up on Spotify it actually it'll go right to your Spotify. Like there's a way to do it so it's super easy. Same thing with itunes. But itunes keeps more of our money anyway. The underworld podcastmail.com and again, if you're a Japanese heritage brand, holler at us. Dude, we just will just we want to denim on denim, you know.
- [67:21]
B
Yeah, I'll do. I mean I'll do anything. And that's a good note.
- [68:42]
A
If you used Babbel, you would Babbel's Conversation Based Techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking questions quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at Babbel.com Spotify spelled B A B-B-E-L.com Spotify rules and restrictions may apply.