The Underworld Podcast Episode Summary
Episode: "Cambodia’s Untouchable Gangster-in-Chief"
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Sean Williams
Guests: Nathan Southern & Lindsay Kennedy
Episode Overview
In this provocative episode, The Underworld Podcast plunges into Cambodia’s complex world of high-level organized crime, corruption, and transnational scams. The focus is on Hunto, a nephew of former Prime Minister Hun Sen, who has risen from timber trafficking to allegedly directing the world’s largest digital criminal marketplace—a story that mirrors Cambodia’s transformation into a global hub for illicit activities. Seasoned journalists Nathan Southern and Lindsay Kennedy join host Sean Williams to uncover how politics, criminality, and foreign influence are deeply intertwined, with Cambodia’s ruling family at the heart.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Setting the Scene: Hunto’s Origins & Cambodia’s Criminal Evolution
- [01:00 – 08:13]
- Hunto is introduced as “a constant name in Cambodia’s lore of organized crime and corruption.”
- He’s a nephew of Hun Sen and cousin to the current Prime Minister, active since the postwar “free-for-all” of the 80s and 90s.
- Started in timber trafficking, exploiting Cambodia’s lucrative rosewood exports to China.
- Allegations include smuggling heroin inside timber shipments to Australia, money laundering via casinos, and involvement with Chinese triads and Vietnamese-Chinese syndicates.
Notable Quote:
"He started off life as a timber trafficker… and now is one of the directors of the biggest illegal digital marketplace in the world. This dwarfs the Silk Road by billions of dollars."
— Sean Williams [06:45]
2. The Hun Family and Cambodia’s Power Structure
- [08:13 – 12:54]
- Nathan: Details Hun Sen’s rise from Khmer Rouge child soldier to Prime Minister, and the split between his ‘Nepo babies’ and Hunto, who retains his “rough and ready” gangster flavor.
- Nepotism and patronage pervade the upper echelons of Cambodian society, allowing the family to control everything from state industries to the underworld.
Notable Quote:
"It feels always very much like he, like, lets him get away with all this stuff because his kids have grown up… [Hunto’s] still, like, the favorite because he's still the rough and ready one."
— Nathan Southern [10:25]
3. From Logging to Scams: The Scam Compounds
- [12:01 – 15:15]
- Journalists investigating logging discover strange “compounds” with casinos and cages, later identified as early scam hubs—directly connected to Hunto.
- Cambodia’s “scam economy” has exploded, with forced labor operations running romance and investment scams targeting global victims.
Notable Quote:
"You see… depots and warehouses… but then you find kind of half-casino looking building with cages on the windows… It took two or three years to know what the hell was actually going on."
— Sean Williams [12:01]
4. Scale and Spread: Transnational Criminality
- [13:35 – 19:41]
- Cambodia’s scam industry now rivals and even eclipses traditional drug trades in profits, worth an estimated 60% of the national GDP.
- Scam zones proliferate along the Thai and Vietnamese borders, spurring cross-border tensions and even armed conflict with Thailand in 2025.
- Scam compounds are so integrated into the economy that countries like Australia and Thailand struggle to respond.
Notable Quotes:
"The whole country's economy now runs on this… scam compound zones… everywhere you look."
— Nathan Southern [13:35]
"Thailand started releasing all these profiles… arrest warrants for senators in Cambodia… but once the fighting started, they just went quiet."
— Sean Williams [15:46]
5. Wildlife Trafficking & Lawless Opulence
- [23:28 – 28:28]
- The hosts recall surreal scenes: wild animals for sale, emotional-support lions owned by crime lords, and a photographer nearly mauled by a tiger near a scam compound.
- Shows the ostentatious behavior of the criminal elite, enabled by political protection.
Notable Quote:
"He was taking a picture [of a tiger] and it leapt through the bars… grabbed him and tried to drag him in."
— Lindsay Kennedy [24:20]
6. Sanctions, International Politics, and Why Hunto Remains Untouchable
- [28:28 – 35:44]
- Despite years of US sanctions against associates and companies, Hunto himself is miraculously untouched.
- He and his wife own millions in Australian property; diaspora communities are allegedly coerced and threatened.
- Laundering of Chinese and Cambodian organized crime profits into Australia and global economies is rampant.
Notable Quotes:
"They seem to be sanctioning everyone all around him constantly. Not this guy, right."
— Nathan Southern [28:28]
"It's this multilayer protection… So people don't write about them that much because they're worried about getting sued… To sue the Qatari government and Rupert Murdoch at the same time is pretty bold."
— Sean Williams [33:07]
7. Cambodia’s Political Genius – The Hun Game
- [36:00 – 38:02]
- Hun Sen adeptly plays China and the US against each other, making Cambodia pivotal in global illicit money flows.
- Traditional resource exploitation shifts to scams and digital crime as natural resources dwindle.
8. Drug Trafficking’s Evolution
- [37:44 – 41:57]
- Cambodia’s role as a heroin (then methamphetamine) transit and production hub in Southeast Asia.
- Meth now overshadows heroin, and Cambodia’s enabled role in global meth and ketamine trade.
Notable Quote:
"There are meth labs all over the place… But the value of the drug trade… is just so much less than other forms of criminality… online scams and illegal gambling is just so low risk."
— Nathan Southern [40:25]
9. Belt and Road, Shadow BRI, and Chinese Triads
- [45:09 – 54:32]
- Roads and infrastructure built under China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) are harnessed by organized crime, sometimes actively facilitated by criminal Triads like Hongmen.
- Scam cities, enabled by state-backed infrastructure, pop up alongside “real” developments.
- The lines between legitimate development and criminal enterprise are blurred.
Notable Quotes:
"The same companies were then hired by gangsters to build these scam compounds… China made quite a lot of money ultimately because they're state owned enterprises."
— Nathan Southern [48:40]
"We call it the shadow BRI… they're literally following them around. And by the time they're built… it's kind of too late."
— Nathan Southern [49:21]
10. The Digital Crime Economy: Beyond Silk Road
- [54:32 – 57:07]
- The 'Wyon' digital marketplace, allegedly directed by Hunto, facilitates everything from people trafficking and weapon sales to laundering billions—
- Unlike Silk Road, Wyon operates in plain sight, integrated with mainstream payment systems and even advertises at airports.
Notable Quotes:
"I've got a QR code so you can pay for stuff in grocery stores in like… And that's where most of the illegal activity was happening."
— Nathan Southern [53:36]
"This blows [Silk Road] way out of the water… the criminal economy has become the economy."
— Lindsay Kennedy [55:18]
11. Cambodia’s Patronage Pyramid
- [61:11 – 69:42]
- To do anything at scale, one must “buy” an oknya (lord/tycoon) title and secure political, police, and military patronage.
- All profits flow “up the chain” in a system intertwined with state security, keeping the elite rich and protected.
Notable Quote:
"What happens is that pretty much everyone who works in any kind of government or police-connected job either pays part of their salary every month to their superior… it all goes up in this giant pyramid scheme to the top."
— Nathan Southern [64:29]
12. Fragile Stability, Absolute Control
- [66:07 – End]
- Hun Sen fostered peace through parcelling out criminal opportunities—logging, drugs, scams—to loyalists, creating a web of fiefdoms dependent on the status quo.
- The elite's personal enrichment is prioritized over national development; foreign organized crime “plugs into” this system.
Notable Quotes:
"He's made this place peaceful, he's made this place stable."
— Sean Williams [66:54]"If you want to open a scam compound, you've done your bit, you've paid up through this chain… the government has to know that they can basically make sure your scam compound's never going to be shut down."
— Nathan Southern [65:00]
Memorable Moments
- Tiger attack on a photojournalist: “He leapt through the bars… tried to drag him in.” [24:21]
- Emotional-support lion: Crime lord demonstrates his bond with a lion in Phnom Penh; Hun Sen fines him but returns the animal. [26:08]
- Australia’s paradoxical response: Hunto is barred to avoid diplomatic incidents, while other elites park money and properties with impunity. [31:38]
- Wyon’s astonishing openness: “Adverts in the airport and on the bridges…” [53:45]
- Interpol drama: A tycoon fleeing Hunto’s alleged theft ends up extradited from Russia—lost to the system. [57:55]
Timeline of Important Segments
| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Cold open: Setting the scene of crime, timber, and drugs in Cambodia—Operation Ilopango | | 05:19 | Hunto’s criminal origins, family ties, context in Cambodia’s criminal history | | 12:01 | Discovery of scam compounds disguised as casinos during timber investigations | | 15:13 | Expansion and militarization of scam zones; border conflict with Thailand | | 23:28 | Wildlife trafficking and mafia pets—photographer nearly killed by a tiger | | 28:28 | Sanctions and Hunto’s foreign property holdings—Australia’s challenges | | 36:00 | Hun Sen’s political games—balancing China, US, and the criminal economy | | 37:44 | Cambodia’s shift from heroin to meth in regional trafficking | | 45:09 | Belt and Road Initiative’s role in criminal infrastructure; Triad involvement | | 54:32 | The rise of Wyon and digital money laundering—crimes in plain sight | | 61:11 | Patronage system detailed—tycoon titles, protection money, and criminal fiefdoms | | 66:07 | Origins of Cambodia’s stability—farming out provinces as criminal fiefdoms in exchange for loyalty and peace |
Concluding Notes
This deep-dive episode reveals how Cambodia has transformed from a narco-state and timber-trafficking outpost into a linchpin in the world’s largest digital crime economies. At every turn, Hunto—protected by family, status, and international reluctance—embodies the frightening synergy of elite crime, state patronage, and global impunity.
"He runs the biggest money laundering platform in the world ever, and he’s still not getting sanctioned."
— Sean Williams [34:33]
For more, see Nathan Southern and Lindsay Kennedy’s reporting in Foreign Policy. If you think organized crime is something 'over there,' this episode will change your mind.
Summarized for engaged listeners and newcomers alike. All timestamps are in MM:SS format as heard in the episode.