← The Underworld Podcast
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- [00:01]
Danny Gold
Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun.
- [00:06]
Sean Williams
An army hung on her every word.
- [00:08]
Danny Gold
My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Support comes from wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way Wise you can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money? Feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today.
- [01:03]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
T's and C's apply July 20 Brooklyn Federal Courthouse, New York A full house. And for good reason. It's sentencing day for Ismail Zambarda Garcia, AKA El Mayo, the Sinaloa cartel kingpin captured two years previous. A man who instills fear and respect across North America. But physically a shadow of his former self, Mayo, 76, is drawn gaunt, his formerly dyed black hair and moustache replaced by a snowy white beard. Ay, Capron. Mayo utters Ah, shit. As he sinks into his chair, suggesting he's having trouble even moving. Mobility, however, might be the least of his problems. In August 2025, Meyerwood pleaded out to a raft of charges that would make Tony Montana blush Racketeering, conspiracy, continuing criminal enterprise. The headlines among 17 drug trafficking and violence raps. Given the weight of evidence against him, it was either life or lethal injection. Mayo chose life. Judge Brian Cogan is ready to hand out Mayo's sentencing. Before that, though, the narco has a short sermon planned. I did not go to trial because I did not want to deny the truth, he says. Then, acknowledging the narco civil conflict that has raged since his arrest, he adds, quote, too many lives are lost. It destroys families. It thrusts youths into a life without a future. Nobody will win this war. Kogan then reads out the old man's sentence. Life without the possibility of parole plus a $15 billion forfeiture, the second highest in US legal history behind the 171 billion DOL copped by frauds to Bernie Madoff in 2010. Journalists scribble everything furiously in their notepads. Mao shuffles uncomfortably in his seat. Now it's the turn of the prosecutors to speak. El Mayo was the world's single biggest drug trafficker this century, says New York Eastern District attorney Joseph Nosella Jr. Outside court. I hope that Elmo's life sentence brings some small measure of comfort to those families who have suffered so much pain. Drug kingpins die in prison El Mayo's fate is to die in prison. El Mayo helped transform the Sinaloa cartel into one of the most violent and prolific criminal organizations, adds DEA administrator Terry Cole. Under his leadership, the cartel produced and trafficked massive amounts of deadly drugs at industrial scale. But then, a nod from Cole, this story isn't over. An operation of that size, he says, could not survive without violence and trafficking alone. Corruption was essential to El Mayo's criminal enterprise. He used bribery, influence and intimidation to shield the cartel from justice both within Mexico and beyond its borders. Today is a great day for law enforcement, adds Cole. But let me be clear. This sentencing is not the end. It's just the beginning. He's right. Mayo, the Sinaloa mastermind, will surely die in captivity. But there are dozens of questions unanswered. What happens to the world's largest drug cartel now? Who's running the criminal show? And what does an unsolved political assassination on the day of Mayo's capture tell us about Mexico's narco's deep venal ties to the country's political elite? This is the Underworld Podcast. Hello and welcome to the weekly podcast that dives into the five W's of global organized crime. Who, what, when, where and why the hell aren't we bigger than all the other shows out there? I am Sean Williams, concierge in Buenos Aires, Argentina and I'm joined by Danny Gold in New York City. I am. Well, I was going to say I'm over Dengue Fever. I'm not sure. I am definitely over the half term and I'm over the World Cup. Things are looking medium B plus. How about you?
- [05:41]
Danny Gold
You know I'm over the summer. I'm ready for fall brother and I've been experimenting with vibe coding video games. So if you like for some personal projects, if anyone is good at that, email me. I'd love to do that and not the work that I'm supposed to be doing.
- [05:53]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
All right, sounds good. Danny wants out speaking about positivity. If you like this show we have tons more our Patreon for less than the price of a coffee a month. Merchunderworldpod.com and we do love to hear from you at the underworldpodcastmail.com yeah, we're
- [06:11]
Danny Gold
on all the socials now too. Patreon.com sayinworldpodcast to sign up. Or you can sign up on Spotify or on itunes, follow us on YouTube, Facebook, all that other. Yeah, all the stuff where we have to do it.
- [06:25]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah. Feel free to drop us some absolutely batshit opinions on all of those platforms. Anyway, banter over. I'm declaring about free zone only cartels and criminal conspiracies from here on in. As you just heard in the cold open, you the guy I'm in the ear of. El Meyer received his long awaited life sentence a couple weeks ago, drawing a line under one of the most spectacular captures of the past decade. You also just heard how the 76 year old, literal gray beard of the cartel world has had a change of heart since he was kidnapped across the US border on July 25, 2024. Pleading for an end to the internecine violence that has gripped what's left of the Sinaloa cartel since. Violence in part being conducted by his own children. So, yeah, I guess you can take that pinch of salt right now.
- [07:17]
Danny Gold
Yeah, Going from pretty much king to staring at the same four walls every day of your life does usually engender, like a change of heart.
- [07:24]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, you've got to. You've got to keep staring at the same four walls for at least 20 years and then your standards will start to slide, as I can tell you. Anyway, whatever. Well, I don't know what I was talking about. Anyway, I wanted to do a special show today, not just on the particulars of Mayo's case, but what's going on in Sinaloa right now. Some of the murkier elements of Mayo's capture that are threatening to cause a diplomatic war between Mexico and the United States and what DEA administrator Cole got into in that statement I just read out about the connections between narcos and politicians in Sinaloa and Mexico at large, which includes a political assassination carried out on the day of Mayo's capture and a potential cover up that goes all the way to the top.
- [08:11]
Danny Gold
We did do a brief discussion of some of the thornier issues and the political intrigue in one of our stash houses, I think a few months ago, right when he was captured, maybe a little bit afterwards. But this is, I think, a much more thorough rundown that you're giving. Plus, you know, the kids, they love the cartel episodes. Which reminds me, Sean, be sure to Google, what are the Albanians getting up to right now for your next episode idea? We want to hit that. Yeah, we want to get that.
- [08:37]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
Vi.
- [08:38]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Just. There's just a massive picture of a Guy holding the kebab knife and a line of coke. But anyway, yeah, I will do that. Actually, we should do an Albanian episode. We haven't done one for ages. We haven't even mentioned them. That's graceful.
- [08:51]
Danny Gold
That's what I'm saying.
- [08:52]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, let's go for it. Okay. Anyway, back to Mexico. An actual reason that I have to say that we're covering conspiracies that go all the way to the top. Can actually do that this week without being one of the dozens of podcasts that just shoots their mouth off at any old nonsense. What a joy, because this is a legit show by legit ish people who do actual journalism. I've interviewed three guys for this episode. There is Luis Chaparro, reporter and friend of the show, Frank Perez Mayo's longtime attorney, and Steph Casella, who is an expert in asset forfeiture, who spoke to me about that magic almost two round to be true. 15 billion dollar figure. Plus how law enforcement is increasingly going after the proceeds of crime. Something you don't hear much about, but is obviously a massive part of heavyweight cases like this.
- [09:39]
Danny Gold
You know, our ratings have slipped a little bit. So I told Sean, I says to him, I says, get someone on the show to talk about acid forfeiture, because that's what our for. That's what our fan base wants to know about. They want the intricate details of the paperwork involved, the sort of financial dealings and how that works. But I will say getting Elio's lawyer is like a pretty good get. And, you know, if they need help with that money, we can. They can sponsor the podcast. Don't just Instagram your crimes, broadcast them on your own podcast.
- [10:10]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Beautiful.
- [10:11]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
Yeah.
- [10:12]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
This whole episode is a shout out to the Sinaloa cartel to please advertise on our show.
- [10:17]
Danny Gold
Both factions.
- [10:19]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, both factions, actually. We could be the peacemakers from here on in. So I can hereby swear, promise on everyone I know's life that you are going to learn more about Mile and Sinaloa from this podcast episode. That you will from reading 100 news articles about the case. And if you don't believe me, email in and I'll personally wire you a single dollar. And if you want to know about Maya's background, his rise, and his fall, we've done a couple of episodes over the past few years, so just search Maya wherever you get in the show and you can find all about that after this. Shall we get into this thing? Yes, yes, I think we should. So let's start with the capture itself. Back in 2010, Meyer was interviewed by a Mexican journalist who was asked if he was worried about being taken captive. The idea of being jailed gives me panic, he responds. I'm not sure I have what it takes to kill myself. I'd like to think that I do, and I'd take my own life. Well, as it turns out, Mayo's fate is far too sudden and spectacular for him to get the chance. It is July 25, 2024. Just before 11am Mayo has been invited to the Huertos de Pedregal branch just outside Sinaloa state capital, Culiacan, which is by Joaquin Usman Lopez, one of the four sons of El Chapo who formed the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa Cartel. Now, the Sinaloa Cartel has had a history of schisms going all the way back to 2008. That year, the three Beltran Leyva brothers had split from Sinaloa after the arrest of Alfredo Bertrand Leyva, allying themselves with the ultra violent Los Zetas leader Arturo Beltran. Leva is killed in a naval operation the following year. And in 2016, after the. I think it's the third and definitive capture of El Chapo, Sinaloa broadly splits into between the Chapitos, who are four of Chapo's God knows how many sons overall, and the Maisa, led by Mayo.
- [12:21]
Danny Gold
You know, I need to point out that Sinaloa Cartel was a cartel in like, the. The essence of the word. Right. It kind of was already separate. Yeah, yeah, they were already separate factions. So this split, this is not a violent split. Right. This is just like a separation. And they still work together and they still are sort of very united at that time. That, of course, changes a couple of years down the road. But this is not. When we say split, we don't mean a split into, like a civil war and warring factions. We just mean that, you know, they ran their operations separately.
- [12:49]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah. And I think around this time, people start calling it like, the Sinaloa Federation instead the Cartel, because it's kind of a broadly allied group of sort of organizations that are under the Sinaloa umbrella. But that goes out of fashion a few years after that, for whatever reason. Anyway, a further Flashpoint is the January 2023 arrest of Ovidio Guzman, one of the Chapitos, and his extradition to the United States to face a host of major organized criminal charges. Now, the Americans have a gigantic bargaining chip, either by squeezing info about Mayo out of Orvidio, who's staring down the barrel of life without parole or by getting Ovidio to put pressure on his Chipito brothers to find a way to get into the States. El Mayo, whom a U.S. official describes as the, quote, cherry on top of multiple operations to put major Sinaloa figures on trial. This pressure ratchets up Even further in February 2023, when a federal jury in Brooklyn finds former Mexican public security official Genaro Garcia Luna guilty of five charges of taking bribes from Sinaloa, including one count of taking suitcases stuffed with $3 million not once, but twice. This is a major, major coup for the Americans and sends a message that even top public officials wound into the cartels will not be able to hide under diplomatic cover. Back in Sinaloa, tensions have been boiling over not only between the Mesa and the Chapitos, but between rival politicians alleged to be taking backhanders from either of them. So on July 25, just before 11am, El Mayo shows up to the Huertos de Pedregali ranch, having been invited by Joaquin Guzman to this high level meeting. Here is a statement from Mayo himself. Quote, I was asked by Joaquin Guzman Lopez to attend a meeting to help resolve differences among the political leaders in our state. I was aware of an ongoing dispute between Ruben Rocha Moya, who is the governor of Sinaloa, and Hector Melesio Quinjeda, the former federal congressman, mayor of Culiacan and rector of the Universidad Autonoma de Sinaloa, the uas, over who should lead that institution. I was accompanied by four security personnel of whom two stayed outside the perimeter. The two who entered with me were Jose Rosario Eras Lopez, a commander in the state judicial police of Sinaloa, and Rodolfo Jaides, a long term member of my security team. We will come back to these key players later because their fate is one of the most important things about this entire story. But Maio, he trusts Joaquin. He knows the 38 year old. He's known him since he was a little kid. So when Joaquin tells Mayo they're going to meet these politicians, then hop in a private plane to check out some real estate, and Mayo has no reason to say no.
- [15:55]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I mean, it's an important reminder that it be your own people, Sean. And another important message that we kind of always talk about was that like, you know, these guys behind the glamour and the glitz of organized crime and being this powerful, the, you know, so called codes and loyalty and all that, you know, 99 of them basically end up betraying lifelong friends or family members. It's, it's almost 99 is exaggeration, but, like, a healthy amount somewhere more than 50 will end up betraying people like this that they've known their entire lives, People they've known since kids, family members, everything like that. Like, it really is just a dirty, dirty game. There's no actual glamour.
- [16:33]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I think that number gets up around 100 for this episode. And I personally, I would be suspicious of anybody related to our video, too, because he is in u. S. Custody at this point and he is singing and his nickname is el raton the rat. So this. Think on my.
- [16:51]
Danny Gold
Anyway, when has that. Since when has that been his nickname?
- [16:55]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I'm not sure, actually. I think it might be quite old. He does look a little ratty if you look at him. He's a little skinny chap. Isn't.
- [17:03]
Danny Gold
Isn't elorton actually the mouse?
- [17:05]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Well, hold on. Now you're making me question my spanish, which is.
- [17:11]
Danny Gold
I think. I think it's. I think I'm right, buddy.
- [17:13]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Oh, my God.
- [17:15]
Danny Gold
Leave this in.
- [17:16]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Is it.
- [17:18]
Danny Gold
It's the mouse, dude. Probably because he's a poor guy. Nah, dude, it's.
- [17:22]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
The mouse is right. Raton is mouse.
- [17:25]
Sean Williams
Wow.
- [17:25]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Are we gonna keep this in yet, Dale? Just keep it in. It's embarrassing as heck. Why not?
- [17:29]
Danny Gold
Embarrassing?
- [17:34]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Okay, cool. Anyway, mayo, moving quickly on. He thinks he's completely safe, but he is not. In fact, the entire thing is a raton trap. Here is my. As soon as I set foot inside of that room, I was ambushed. A group of men assaulted me, knocked me to the ground, and placed a dark colored hood over my head. They tied me up and handcuffed me, then forced me into the bed of a pickup truck. During this entire ordeal, I was subjected to physical abuse resulting in significant injuries to my back, knee, and wrist. Oh, no. I was then driven to a landing strip around 20 or 25 minutes away, where I was forced onto a private plane. Joaquin removed the hood from my head and bound me with zip ties to the seat. No one else was aboard the plane except Joaquin, the pilot, and myself. And he goes on, quote, the flight lasted around two and a half to three hours without any stops, and until we arrived in el Paso, Texas. It was there on the tarmac that US Federal agents took custody of me. The notion that I surrendered or cooperated voluntarily is completely and unequivocally false. I was brought to this country forcibly and under duress, without my consent and against my will.
- [18:50]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
All right, we get it.
- [18:51]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, you should have just stuck with one of those phrases. Anyway, in actual Fact, it seems that Mayo had been flown to Santa Teresa, N.M. probably would have been better off
- [19:00]
Danny Gold
in Santa Teresa, Costa Rica.
- [19:02]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I might go there for the winter for many reasons.
- [19:04]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I might go there for the winter.
- [19:06]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
That's. That. That sounds great. I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna just choose to continue picking up child's shit. Anyway, this is the version, this MYO version. It's the version of events repeated by the world's media in the media aftermath of the arrest, not just of Mayo, but also Joaquin and the pilot, who is a shadowy figure known only as Handor. Cbs, Reuters, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, they all report that Joaquin has set Mayo up, cut a deal for himself and his incarcerated brother Ovidio in return for the septuagenarian drug lord Mayo. But how much does this really check out? Joaquin, at this point, is one of the most powerful criminals in the world. He's still got plenty of political cover, thousands of foot soldiers, billions of dollars in drug revenue, and access to most of the logistics and manpower behind whatever you might call the Sinaloa cartel. These aren't generally guys who don't back themselves to run from justice or not obliterate their rivals. So why is Joaquin freely turning himself into American law enforcement and turning in Mayo, a guy he's known since childhood? I mean, I doubt I'd be submitting myself to a federal trial, which famously has a conviction rate of around 95%. So would you? As a listener of this show and not a multibillion dollar owning, like, murderous cartel guy? Probably not. More likely is that US officials are orchestrating this whole thing on the ground, something Mexico has accused the states of doing since the very, very beginning. Then Mexican President Amlo, of hugs not bullets, fame or infamy, requests a full report from the Americans. Something, of course, that he never gets. When AMLO is replaced by Claudia sheinbaum Later in 2024, the Americans continue to play games, refusing requests to see the plane and according to her, providing Mexican counterparts with fake registration documents. I mean, you can understand the outrage, I guess, if this is some sicario movie style operation with HSI and FBI agents carrying out a kidnapping on Mexican soil, it is a massive breach of sovereignty. Of course, it is also a massively useful thing for Shine, bound to wave around as her relationship with US President Trump disappears down the gutter. According to security expert David Salcedo, it's something the Mexican government cannot, quote, let slide as it involves, quote, the capture of a Mexican national on Mexican national territory by United States agents.
- [21:40]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I know we disagree on this, but at this point. At this point, like, it's not 10, 15 years ago. this point, I'm just like, somebody. Somebody's got to do it because they're not doing it.
- [21:49]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
You know, Facts. I'm just a simple reporter.
- [21:52]
Danny Gold
It's tough. Yeah, it's a tough call. They're caught in a tough situation. Sympathetic, you know, they got the drugs down there, they got the consumers over here. And it's like. But you gotta. You gotta. The guy. They gotta have rocket launchers, but you gotta. Somebody gotta do something.
- [22:04]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
You know, Somebody. Somebody's gotta do something. I think we can rest on that. Somebody's gotta do something.
- [22:09]
Sean Williams
Yeah.
- [22:10]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
A little something. Yeah. All right, I'll let that one go. I. Yeah, I'm avoiding opinions since I basically blew a fuse watching that Argentina England game, man. Took all. I hate that guy. He's an idiot. Anyway, Ken Salazar, U.S. ambassador to Mexico at the time of the capture, has written in his own memoir that, quote, the United States had no prior knowledge of this abduction. Which is a mad boring thing to write in your own memoir, man. But the FBI appears to have undercut this somewhat when it recently put the plane used to fly MYO on display at that Santa Teresa airport. Hando had just flown to. A sign next to the plane, right, says that the arrests were the result of something called Operation Air Kings, when FBI officers, quote, successfully execute a highly complex, secretive and daring arrest of two of the world's most wanted fugitives. Which, if nothing else, is funny.
- [23:10]
Danny Gold
Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? It's actually a club with cool finds.
- [23:14]
Sean Williams
And like a whole community, it's a club.
- [23:17]
Danny Gold
Of course, Jason.
- [23:18]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
It's in the name.
- [23:19]
Danny Gold
Sam's Club.
- [23:21]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Oh, yeah. Come join us.
- [23:24]
Sean Williams
Sam's Club.
- [23:25]
Danny Gold
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- [23:55]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Still waiting in line again,
- [24:00]
Danny Gold
that's time.
- [24:00]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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- [24:16]
Sean Williams
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Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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- [24:24]
Danny Gold
Taxes and fees apply.
- [24:25]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Bio's arrest has given Sheinbaum another chance to wave about the sovereignty card. She's launched an official investigation into Operation Air Kings, which is the operation that has a name and a museum piece, but which didn't officially happen last month. Mexico's attorney general announces that, quote, if recent reports are confirmed, then all signs point to three serious issues. A series of violation of Mexican and international law, a pact made outside the bounds of the law, and a lie told by a US Diplomat, which would constitute a breach of the cornerstone principle of good faith in diplomatic relations. I'm going to add a fourth in there that all of your politicians seem to be taking backhanders from the mob, which is quite scandalous. Anyway, Joaquin Guzman has said in his own plea agreement that the U.S. government, quote, did not request, induce, sanction, approve or condone the kidnapping. But we know that Obedio was speaking to the DEA at the time the kidnapping was being concocted. I just don't buy it. That doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Here is Frank Perez, Myo's lawyer, speaking to me last week.
- [25:33]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
Right. Well, Joaquin was, is his godson. So he had, he trusted him. He thought he was going to resolve a political matter and he was kidnapped. So he was surprised. He thought they were just going to throw him off the plane. He thought, yeah, it was, it was the end for him.
- [25:49]
Danny Gold
So I mean, this is like I've done my share of interviewing mob lawyers and they know how to turn a phrase like we just let's everyone, grain of salt here. This is a literal cartel lawyer. So he's going to say some things but like, you know, treat it like we treat, I think police reports like healthy, healthy amount of doubt with everything that is said.
- [26:07]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
You know, something that's interesting about Frank Perez is that he's actually been on both sides. He used to be, I think he was like a Texas prosecutor.
- [26:15]
Danny Gold
So he's a lot.
- [26:17]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:18]
Danny Gold
Defense attorneys always start out like that.
- [26:19]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Interesting stuff. Anyway, here he is talking about the, the capture.
- [26:23]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
I don't think the US Account is clear. He wasn't arrested. He was Kidnapped. He was kidnapped. There was a hood put over his head. He's knocked to the ground. He was beat up, put on a plane, given a drink, something to put him to sleep, and brought to the United States. Once he arrived in the United States, there was agents there waiting. So what happened or how they appeared, that's still a mystery at this point, I guess. I mean, once someone is in the United States, the court has jurisdiction. As you recall, Mexico expelled many individuals and they complained about it. But once you're in US So the court has jurisdiction. Now, my understanding is that Joaquin Guzman was charged with the kidnapping, so he did get ramifications for doing that. So, yeah, when he pled guilty in Chicago, that was part of the conduct. And I believe there's also another investigation, investigation into the kidnapping because several people were killed in Mexico.
- [27:27]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Another fascinating part of this case is that $15 billion forfeiture, going hard after the proceeds of crime is a shockingly new thing. I mean, some countries don't have any statutes at all on this. Actually, the majority of countries don't. The US only put property forfeiture legislation on the books in 2010, for example. And how do law enforcement and courts follow the money on a case like Miles? To find out more, I've spoken to Steph Casella, who's probably the biggest expert in the subject in the United States.
- [27:59]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
It's not an exact science, and in fact, the cases use that phrase. They say that determining the amount subject to forfeiture does not require mathematical exactitude. It's a good faith effort, and the government and the court would generally take the most conservative approach to avoid any unnecessary litigation. So how do you come to a figure when we're talking about a drug dealer? There are various ways, and they're not mutually exclusive. They might complement each other. You would use informants, you know, who on the inside knows how much traffic they were doing in drugs and what the prices were and how that money was received and how it was distributed and how it was used and reinvested to obtain more product and so forth, you might combine that information with what is generally known to law enforcement in terms of what street prices are. If you were able to determine that someone moved so many kilos of product a month to the United States and you knew what the street value was of that product in the United States, you could come up with a retail number. If you knew what the wholesale price was to distributors in the United States, you could come up with a wholesale number. You would extrapolate from any known Numbers that you had. If you knew that he or his organization realized, I will kick a number out of the air, $10 million a month, and they did it for 160 months, then you would multiply. As long as your starting point was accurate and you had a good faith reason to believe that the numbers remained constant over a period of time, then you could extrapolate.
- [29:37]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
And just before we move on, I think it's worth hearing what Maya's lawyer, Perez, says about the judgment. With the caveat again, that he is, of course, Miles guy. Let's hear it.
- [29:48]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
It's that. That's symbolic. There's no way to recover that money. They can't. I mean, they're calculating something that happened over 50 years, including what? His partnership with Chapo. And maybe there was that much growth that was moved during that period. It's hard to calculate. But Mr. Zambala doesn't have any assets. There's nothing in his name. You know, there's a war going on in Sinaloa. You know, what he did have? I mean, some of it was destroyed, burned. Maybe they're selling it to support the war, I don't know. But there's no way that's going to be recovered.
- [30:25]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
So I guess that is what you'd expect. I mean, the drug lord's lawyer trying to keep the government's hand off his client's cash. But Steph Casella admits that chasing the money is going to be a very tough thing to do, and not just in this case. Right. So let's hear from him again.
- [30:41]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
Maybe it's there, but I did not see a list of any specific assets that have been recovered. It looked like only a money judgment for $15 billion. I say only $15 billion. It's an uncollected judgment at this point until and unless they come up with specific assets, whether it be real property investments, cryptocurrency, you know, businesses, whatever it might be. But they're going to have to trace that, and in order to recover it. The good news is it doesn't have to be traceable to his crime. Now that they have the $15 billion judgment, they can recover anything that he owns to satisfy that judgment without having to prove that it's tainted. They just have to respond to anyone else who claims and comes in and claims that it belongs to them. We can't forfeit a third party's property to satisfy El Mayo's judgment. And so there'll be a proceeding where others will come in and say, no, no, no, that's not his property. That's my property. Now, those may well be shells, straws, you know, trusts, who knows? The whole gamut will inevitably unfold. But they first have to find some assets to go after before that process even begins. One of the things we urge law enforcement to do is to make a focus on the. On the money part of the investigation from the beginning, rather than making an afterthought after the person is apprehended or convicted or being sentenced. It's often at that point, number one, too late to find the money because it has disappeared into the. Into the wind in the interim between the time it was earned and the time all of this legal process took place. And also, just as a practical matter, in terms of resources, every prosecutor knows that the federal agents with whom he or she works, whether they be FBI or DEA or IRS or whatever, move on to the next case once the arrest is made and, or the conviction is obtained, and no longer have the interest in pursuing the assets that is necessary to come up with hard evidence as to where the. How much money and where it is and how it's. And whose name it's held and all of that. And so for all those reasons, you want to start from at the beginning. You're investigating the person in terms of his connections to organized crime, the nature and scope of his organization, and how you're going to prove the criminal activity took place and that he is responsible for it. But at the same time, you want to be looking for what property he has purchased, what his lifestyle is, whose associates are who may be in the know with respect to his assets. Does he have lawyers, accountants, investment advisors, and so forth who have invested the money for him? Does he use false names? Does he have businesses that are shell companies incorporated in foreign jurisdictions, offshore jurisdictions? Has he shown a proclivity to convert to cryptocurrency? And if so, you know, how is that, how might that be traced? All of that should be going ongoing in the course of the criminal investigation and not left till the end.
- [33:54]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I find this kind of stuff fascinating. I mean, I hope you do too. It's surely one of the few things you can do to actually try and stamp out a lot of this stuff. And like Steph says, crypto is now giving authorities a massive headache when they're already behind on forfeiture to begin with.
- [34:12]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
The bad guys do not know sovereign borders law enforcement, the beginning and the end of jurisdiction depends on sovereign borders. And so a quarter of the way through the 21st century, and we're still trying to Figure out how to deal with the fact that the bad guys can move the money anywhere they want around the world. And now, in the more recent years, not even moving it across borders, but moving it out of real space into cyberspace, you know, nobody even knows where is a crypto asset, you know, in terms of, you know, in whose jurisdiction it is. And so if it even exists. And so for all of those reasons, we have to modernize those statutes.
- [34:50]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
This brings us on to the second and way bigger scandal surrounding the capture, which is the death of Hector Melesioquen Ojeda, businessman, former mayor of Culiacan, and at the time of his death, head of the city's biggest university, which I thought with over 150,000 students was gigantic, but of course, I looked this up, and there is a university in Bangladesh with almost 3.5 million students. How does that even work? Can somebody please tell me? Anyway, Quinn is a very big deal. And the other guy Mayo places at the ranch on the morning of his capture, Ruben Rocher Moya is an even bigger deal. Since 2021, he's been the Sinaloa state governor. And according to Mayo and others, the two men are in a political dispute, Mayo says, over who should run the university. We're not entirely sure. Let's just part the strange fact that two major narcos are mediating a dispute like this. It has been going on for years. Quinn battling with Russia over who should be placed in major roles across Sinaloa. On July 20, five days before the meeting, Quen posts a video to YouTube in which he makes direct accusations against Russia that he's corrupt, that he's making illegal interventions into the running of the university, and that he's sitting on millions of unexplained dollars, meaning, of course, that he's on the payroll of the Sinaloa cartel. These are not things you'll be unsurprised to learn that politicians usually broadcast in Mexico. On July 26, the day after the capture, the Sinaloa Attorney General's office reports that Quinn has been shot dead by robbers at a Culiacan gas station the previous evening. It releases a video which apparently shows an armed man approaching Quinn's vehicle from a motorcycle and shooting through the window. True? No. Mayo says the gas station story is bullshit in his letter published that August quote, I am aware that the official version being told by Sinaloa state authorities is that Hector Quen was shot in the evening of July 25th at a gas station by two men on a motorcycle who wanted to Rob his pickup truck. That is not what happened. He was killed at the same time and in the same place where I was kidnapped. Hector Quinn was a longtime friend of mine, and I deeply regret his death. As well as the disappearance of Jose Rosario Eras Lopez and Rodolfo Chaires, who no one has seen or heard from since. Those two guys again, by the way, members of Mayo security who accompanied him to the ranch that day. The 25th, Quen's body is cremated before an autopsy can be carried out. And Mexican media are already talking about a massive cover up by the time of October 2025, when the federal Attorney General's office announces that it has discovered blood stains at the ranch, which appear to back up Mayo's story. At a property located at Huertos de Pedregal, Culiacan, hematic evidence was found that has been determined with complete precision to correspond to the ex rector of the Autonomous University of Sinaloa. It writes, the Federal Attorney General rejects the Sinaloa Attorney General's gas station story, adding that Quinn was killed, quote, many hours before that attack took place. What's more, federal authorities then find blood on the dashboard of the gas station vehicle, which corresponds to the Rodolfo Chaides, one of those two bodyguards of Mayo that day. The federal government then declares it has enough evidence to prosecute members of the Sinaloa State Attorney's team for this cover up. A Coolia Khan judge then refuses to issue warrants for their arrests, and the Attorney General resigns. So pretty crazy conspiracy right there.
- [38:46]
Danny Gold
Wait, so this conflict, is there like a separate. Like the. They're fighting over the school? Is that separate from a narco conflict? Like, are the narcos tertiary to this or are they actively. Is it actively about that?
- [38:57]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
No, I think this is all bound in together. I mean, Quinn is out there saying that Russia is taking cash directly off the cartels. I mean, it seems that each man has picked his side of the Sinaloa, right? Quinn with Mayo and Russia with the Chipitos. Or maybe Joaquin is just making this, like, outrageous statement of civil war, basically by taking Mayo and then just popping off two of his bodyguards and the guy that he's friends with. Either way, it's like something straight out of a movie. It's. It's crazy. By the time all this is coming out, of course, a civil war is raging between the Chapitos and the Myisa. Bodies are dropping like flies, and the streets of towns up and down Sinaloa have been turned into war zones this whole time. Rosha, the state Governor is denying he was even at the meeting with Quen Joaquin and Mayo. But so called Narco Mantas cartel banners pop up across the state showing pictures of Rocha and other political leaders alongside chapito members. In November 2025, an expo in Culiacan is cancelled after one of the banners threatens Rosha and his family. Reports by the journalist Anabel Hernandez then explicitly accuse Russia's 2021 political rise as having been bankrolled by the Sinaloa cartel. And in April this year, the LA Times reports that US officials have denied Russia a visa.
- [40:25]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
Quote.
- [40:26]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Rocha Moya is one of a number of top politicians viewed as protected by their associations with Lopez Obrador. Among the many threats to Rocha Moya's political survival was the outcry about the 2024 shooting death of his one time chief political rival in Hector Melesio Cuen Ojeda, a former lawmaker and university rector. The crime remains unsolved. Mexican federal prosecutors concluded that the state inquiry into the shooting was a sham. Among the inconsistencies. According to prosecutors, state investigators compiled a fake video meant to conceal where, when and how the victim was slain. The resulting uproar forced the resignation of the chief Sinaloa prosecutor. But Rosha Moya, their boss, remained in office despite calls for his resignation. Since then, the Sinaloa civil war and its connection to Mexican politics have spilled into other states. Top lieutenants are constantly being caught or killed, with US law enforcement all over the situation. Remember, the Sinaloa Cartel was designated a terrorist organization last year, giving US authorities way more bandwidth to go after them militarily. I mean, that is exactly what led to Jalisco Cartel kingpin El Mencho's death this February. Here is Luis Chaparro, Juarez born journalist and chief of the outlet Piednota or Footnote for more. And we'll put the full interview, by the way, up on the Patreon for our subscribers. Because we love you and we want to kiss you on the lips.
- [41:58]
Sean Williams
So did you know?
- [42:00]
Danny Gold
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- [42:04]
Sean Williams
And like a whole community, it's a club.
- [42:07]
Danny Gold
Of course, Jason. It's in the name. Sam's Club.
- [42:11]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Oh yeah. Come join us.
- [42:13]
Sean Williams
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- [42:14]
Danny Gold
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Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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- [42:21]
Sean Williams
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Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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- [42:25]
Danny Gold
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Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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Danny Gold
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Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
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Danny Gold
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- [43:08]
Sean Williams
Get started@vanta.com we have this civil war that broke right after they kidnapped El Mayo from Sinaloa, brought him over to the United States to face justice. Since then, Obedo and Joaquin have been waiting for their hearings, advancing their time in court. They still have no sentence. They're still waiting on a sentence. We're still waiting to hear what's going to be the sentence for them. We know for a fact that Olvido Guzman is now under some sort of protection witness program, although it's not precisely the witness protection program. El Mayo Zambala was just declared guilty. He was sentenced to life in prison and now he's only fighting not to go to the same prison or any similar where El Chapo is locked in right now, which is ADX Florence, one of the toughest security prisons in the United States. Meanwhile, in Sinaloa, this war is still going on. It's been two years. Two years of killings, two years of murders, two years of errors made by the sicarios killing innocent people. Two years also of involving Mexican politicians, including Sinaloa governor who's now indicted by the United States for drug trafficking charges. The Major of Culiacan, Juan de Riosolibas as well, he's also indicted by the United States for the same reason and several other Mexican politicians. The war between Los Chapitos and Los Mayos started three almost four months later after El Mario Zambada was kidnapped from Sinaloa. But since then it's been nonstop. Plus taking account that they broke an alliance with the cartel Jaliscu Nava Generacion. Those Chapitos made an alliance that the government and several other sources first tried and denied. Then the Mexican bomberman confirmed that it was actually an alliance. El Mencho is now dead. The alliance is out. It's Dead. They still fighting? They're fighting in Culiacan. They're fighting in several other parts of Sinaloa. The fighting extended all the way to Baja California, through other states like Sonora, Durango, Chihuahua, Chiapas. So now this war is not only in Sinaloa, it's in almost all of the Mexican territory. And it seems that we're ending. Men keep dying, arms keep flowing, money keeps flowing. And it seems unstopped. At the very beginning, right after Mayo was kidnapped and the violence began in Sinaloa, I remember talking to members of both families, separately, of course. I spoke with some of the Guzman families still in Sinaloa and some of the Sambadas families still in Culacan. And I asked them both what would it take for them to stop the violence. And they said either Ivan Archibaldo Guzman and Jesus Alfredo will have to be dead or arrested in the United States, or El Magito Flacco has to be dead or arrested in the United States for the war to stop. I'm not sure that is true. Recently, when El Mario Zambada received his sentence, he wrote a letter. He read a letter to the judge Cogan, where he said, no one will win this war. This is a war with. That makes no sense. And he basically asked those fighting still in Mexico to stop the war because no one will ever win and many more will die. It is right now basically annihilation of both sides. I remember when the Sinalo Cartel tried to break into Ciudad Juarez, which was the basically the headquarters for the Juarez cartel back in 2000. By the end of 2008, 2009, 2010, it was a ruthless war with many, many killings. For four years, they didn't stop fighting at the end. No one won. No one declared the city for them all. And what happened is they basically annihilated themselves. Then you had a bunch of little alliances between the Juarez Cartel and the Sinaloa Cartel and then a bunch of little cartels, mini cartels, branches of the Juarez Cartel, La Linea, Lampreza, Artistas, this and that. And the same happened with the Sinaloa faction that were in Ciudad Juarez. I think that's going to be the future of the Sinaloa Cartel. The Sinaloa Cartel used to be this one major international drug trafficking organization, or let's call it a criminal enterprise. Right now it's split into two factions. From those two factions, there's going to be a bunch of little branches along the way. As years keep going. By the 4th, 5th year of this war, there's going to be a bunch of branches. And the Sinaloa cartel that we knew is never going to be back again, that Sinaloa cartel that we knew before. So apparently the cartel Carisconnova Carnacion also is kind of going to shed while the Sinaloa cartel is still fighting. I think the flu flashpoints are going to be a bit far from drug trafficking. I mean, drug trafficking, don't get me wrong, still a very important source of income for cartels. But as the war keeps growing and everyone tries to capitalize what's happening with the Sinalo cartel with the Terra film, smaller criminal groups like Santa Rosa de Lima, which is mostly a local regional cartel, home to Santa Rosa de Lima, operating mostly in Guanajuato, they're capitalizing on other sources of income like natural resources, mining, water, also government contract contractors. They are trying to get more and more government contracts to build highways, schools, hospitals, et cetera, so they can keep earning that money. But they also are outsourcing their security forces, the group of picarios, to foreign mining companies landing in Mexico. So let's say there is a Canadian mining company trying to get silver from Guanajuato or from Zacatecas. So and these guys are outsourcing their power to protect that mine, to establish a security zone. And they're, they're, they're cashing in big. So I think natural resources, land, government contracts, human smuggling are four new source of income that are probably even higher right now than drug trafficking. They ask for ransom to the mining companies and if they don't comply, they just killed all of the mining workers and try to put the mining companies out of Mexico. And again, this is happening without the Mexican government doing anything to actually, or the barest minimum to actually go against these guys.
- [50:02]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
But the, the new generation is kind of, I guess, cartel Nepo babies, the second or third generation cartel leaders. It seems that they don't even inspire the kind of respect from anyone in the, in the public that their ancestors might have done. These kind of campesinos, these kind of guys who grew from nothing to become leaders of multi billion dollar empires. Do people have any respect for these people? Is it just kind of terror at this point?
- [50:30]
Sean Williams
I think that's the perception that it's been through all the years when El Chapo was like up and coming. People believe the same about El Chapo. They will feel that he had no respect for how things were made before with the eldest and these. But it's always kind of like the same stuff. When the Guadalajara organization first began Flourishing with El Neto Fonseca, Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo de Jes, Rafael Caro Quintero. They were youngsters. Some of them, like the eldest guys will believe they don't know what the hell to do. They're just ruthless, they're violent, they don't care, they don't have values, if whatever values means in a drug trafficking organization. And that's something that it's been ongoing forever because I think that's the perception of the people that they think that the elders are always more or less violent, less erratic, you know, more like put together and they know what they're doing. And they were drug traffickers, not killers. They've always been killers. All of these guys have always been rats. All these guys have always been killers. They killed innocent people, they raped women, they killed children. All of these guys, they're exactly the same. What I do believe that changes the game completely is the balance that jar El Mayo Sambada with the Sinaloa cartel, but also with other criminal organizations. Elmado El Mayo Zambada, don't get me wrong, he has also a rat, he's a killer, he's a rapist, he's a criminal and now he's is paying for his crimes. But he genuinely believed in a balance in war is not good for business. He didn't care about violence, about innocent lives, he cared about business. So he was like a negotiator between all parts. El Mayo was called several, several times to negotiate between politicians, to negotiate between different cartels, to negotiate between his own cartel, to negotiate between families. So whenever every single power in Mexico had a fight, they will look for El Mayo to be a middleman. And to get things straight, he was an expert negotiator after he was captured, after he was taken into the United States. Now regarding to different kids and the perception of the people in Sinaloa, particularly if you ask before the war, what's going on with Los Chapitos? What's going on with Los Mayos? Everybody, every local will tell you, we're fed up with Los Chapitos. They don't know how to treat people. They don't know how to maintain their power without killing innocent people. They just want to do their will. And really a lot of people didn't like Los Chapitos, right? They were like fed up because they were perceived as narco juniors. They're not. They didn't made an empire of themselves. They're just inherited what El Chapo did. Same goes for Los Mayos with a difference that every Single son of Mayo Sambada, other than El Maito Flacco, were negotiating with the United States, were already in jail or negotiating or free in the United States after negotiations with the United States. So this marriage between the state and the drug tribe, the criminal organizations in Mexico, has been forever. There's no existence of one without the other one, sadly. But when El Mallo Zambara was kidnapped, that was probably the clearest proof we as Mexicans have that there is no doubt that these guys operate together. The meeting was going to be between El Mayo Zambada, Joaquin Guzman Lopez. The idea was to negotiate and to mediate a meeting between Ruben Rochamoya, actual governor of Sinaloa, and Melesio Cuen, which was a known politician who also wanted to be a governor for Sinaloa at the time. When Ruben Rochamoya won, there were rivals, there were enemies. They hated each other forever because they first they were compadres, and eventually they went to war because of politics. Right? Something very usual in the political aspect in every single part of the world. The question was, like, why was Elmayo in the middle of this meeting? Why was he trying to negotiate between both of them? Well, El Mayo said himself in a letter that Melesio Coen was his compadre. Feels like that's where they killed my compadre. If you remember the general Attorney's office of Sinaloa, they tried to play a very idiotic idea of how Meleso went down, Right?
- [55:13]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah.
- [55:14]
Sean Williams
They did all these fake video of a robbery in his pickup. They use his actual pickup truck to go into a gas station. They used a fake sicario who shot a fire to the vehicle. And that was all fake just to make us believe that Melencio Gwen died during a robbery, which is, again, they go deep inside. The relation between criminal organizations and the state is very, very rooted in Mexico. And we're only talking about one state, which is in Aloa, and only because El Mayo Zambada was Kitama and Melezukan was. Was. Was killed. But if we talk about Michoacan, if we talk about Chihuahua, we talk about Chiapas, if we talk about, like, terror and different others, other states, you start, like, getting the band aid out of your eyes and say, like, oh, man, these guys are really running the country. Seems like an exaggeration, of course, because you will say like, well, you will still have a president, you still have governors, you have several elections. But at the end, we are on the verge of the new election for governors in all of Mexican states. Right. And the killings already started. They're killing candidates for governors to let you choose between the only two options they themselves want you to choose. They're paying a lot she tons of money to several to the campaigns of these politicians. So they win. And now they owe a favor to these criminal organizations. It's wild. We in Piedenota, along with two other journalists, Oscar Valderas and Miguel Angel Mesa, we started this project called Narco Politicus. We have this website, narco politicosport.com and the teams of the three of us are investigating actively politicians from the smallest little municipality to the chief of police of that municipality, to the president, to governors, senators, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and trying to find their links on paper, on trail, not by like we hear someone said, no rumors. We need to have like confirmed investigations either in the US or in Mexico. Paper trail, etc. To say these guys are in bed with criminal organizations. And as of today, we have found more than 40 different narco politicos currently operating in Mexico with proofs, with documents, with paper trails, with sources that there is little deniability for themselves to say, I don't know what you're talking about. Again, it's not me saying my newscast. Well, I heard from something is documents, it's in the active investigation is the FBI, the dea, the Fiscalia General de Republican Mexico, its bank accounts, it's photos, videos of them getting money, of meetings, et cetera, et cetera, a bunch of evidence. And still the Mexican government is saying, mexico, it's not run by these guys. Well, at least 40. And we're just three guys and their teams finding evidence on 40 politicians currently in bed with criminal organizations. I wonder if we had the resources of an actual fiscalia of a general attorney's office or of an agency like the United States Vital Resources. We could definitely find many, many, many more all the time. So it's brutal what's happening in Mexico.
- [58:38]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Like Luis just said, this civil war has made the situation in Sinaloa way more violent, unpredictable. And led by this new generation of Nepo babies who command fear without necessarily the respect of their campesino fathers. Michael Ferrara, a former federal prosecutor in Chicago involved in the case against Meyers eldest son Vicente, AKA El Vicentillo, has echoed this. Last week he told an LA Times reporter that quote, for the Narco Juniors, they've never lived in a real world. They've lived in a world where their fathers are in complete control. For them is logical. They just employed death and destruction they don't know any other way to hold on to power.
- [59:19]
Danny Gold
There's got to be like third and fourth generation Narco juniors by now. No, I mean, some of These families go back 60s, 70s.
- [59:27]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah. I mean, would you watch like the Real Housewives of Kulia Khan or.
- [59:33]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
I don't know.
- [59:33]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Narco Needs a Wife.
- [59:34]
Danny Gold
They, they did those shows. I mean, the US had grown up Gotti, which was a show about Gotti's kids, our grandkids.
- [59:40]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I didn't even know.
- [59:40]
Danny Gold
There was also a mob wife show, which is a reality show. Israel had some reality show where like, they, like, they take one person from, like one set of like one type of life to another. Like, it would mix like a
- [59:53]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
guy.
- [59:53]
Danny Gold
And they took. No, they took a model and she lived with a mafia family like, that was active. I think they controlled like garbage routes. And afterwards she was like, it was like, it's not like you see on tv. Like, it was like, like, like the Sopranos. Like, it was. Although Spinals was, you know, I don't think you want to live with them. And she was like, it's. It's pretty scary. But yeah, they've done it, man. Mob Wives is crazy. There were all sorts of reality show stuff like that. So it's out there. But yes, the Real Housewives of Coolie Khan. I would, I don't haven't watched any of those others. I would 100% watch that.
- [60:23]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Can you send me the link to that Israeli one? Because I want to watch that.
- [60:26]
Danny Gold
Like, yeah, I forgot what it's called. Someone, if you guys know, email us, because it's definitely a thing that that happened.
- [60:31]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
That is nuts. Anyway, yes, for decades, Mayo had been able to evade capture because he was known as a peacemaker, a deal maker, a guy who preferred to corrupt officials for cover rather than killing fleets of narcos, politicians, and civilians. Of course, there is a decent amount of myth to that too. Maier has always had an armed wing ready to carry out bloodshed on his behalf. Famously, he commanded the feared sicario group, Los Antrax, the Anthrax and Los Russos, the Russians. Although, you know, knowing my Spanish, this episode, that could be anything. I don't know. These are not nice guys. In fact, they are quite bad.
- [61:11]
Danny Gold
You know, I think the peacemaker thing was really about how he kind of handled things diplomatically instead of psychotically. Like, he still, you know, he still got people killed. Obviously. He was top of the most powerful cartel in the world. A lot of people killed, very violent. But it wasn't like some of these other guys, like for fun. And it wasn't always his first impulse and he was very good at smoothing things out between rivals to like, you know, move forward without murdering 400 people.
- [61:36]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the like, you know, loas and Mencho kind of mo, right? Just like hiring people to turn people, turn sort of like victims into mush and things like this and just picking people off buses and beheading them. But yeah, that's not what he did. Apparently he's also a bit of a politics nerd as well. I mean, I guess it's easy to get swept up in the horse race if billions of your own dollars depend on it. Me, I'm watching question time to see if I'll ever pay back my student loan. But I'm way cooler, of course. What is happening now, however, is that the Latin American cartel world, it's going even more underground, right? It's splintering among groups in Ecuador, Colombia, Peru, Brazil. Without these famous narco chiefs of old as Insight Crimes. Victoria Dittmayer said, quote, you saw actors that had a more invisible modus operandi. We actually called them at Insight Crime the invisibles, precisely to avoid this increased law enforcement pressure and pressure from rival groups. So we've documented in Colombia now how many of the actors that are key to the drug trade today maintain a completely legal facade, are not necessarily linked to an armed organization, operate more like brokers, more on the business front rather than the territorial criminal wars, which also gives them a degree of protection. So it could be interesting to see if we see that also evolve in Mexico under these circumstances, which actually will be really interesting, especially I think, as we've got in with a bunch of recent shows, the Brazilians especially are moving in like massively on cocaine among Latin America. All of which leaves us just a couple of little loose ends to tie up. One of them is the identity of Hando, the pilot, who according to Joaquin Guzman, was the only guy besides him and Mayo on that plane bound for New Mexico. As is often the case, Owen Grillo has done some cracking work on this at his site, Crash Art Media, which reports that the 32 year old, who is named in official documents both as Mauro Alberto Nunez Ojeda and Alejandro Ojeda Abeda, had confessed all the way back in April this year to have worked with the Sinaloa cartel for over a decade, flying planes loaded with cocaine and guns. Hando also claims he ran communication for the Chapos. I mean, I don't think that means pr. I think that means, like, I don't know, signals to other guys. That is until February 2025, when Mexican soldiers arrest him after a shootout. And that August. So last August, hand him over to the US as part of a huge transfer of prisoners.
- [64:21]
Danny Gold
Do you think they're hiring for a PR position?
- [64:26]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Are you. Are you looking?
- [64:28]
Danny Gold
I mean, I mean, benefits have got to be incredible. There's equity. Come on.
- [64:33]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Is there equity? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I don't want like some. I don't want the kind of like TV guy thing where you get a percentage on a future payout.
- [64:41]
Danny Gold
That's what equity is.
- [64:42]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I want the ready. Oh, damn.
- [64:45]
Danny Gold
No, I just think that's the concept of equity. Okay, all right.
- [64:48]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I thought these guys were big on cash. That's what attracts me. I just want piles of cash. Anyway, are you getting the timeline here? Hando is arrested last year and transferred to the US Months before he pops up as the pilot ferrying Mayo into US custody. What's more, according to Crasher, quote, remarkable, he would have participated in a cross border kidnapping, yet being released by US Federal agents without charges and traveled back to Mexico.
- [65:19]
Danny Gold
I mean, this is insane. First of all, this is great work, but he's got a story to tell, huh? I mean, is he free right now in Mexico? He better be. I don't even know, like, in hiding or have left Mexico already, right? Like, I can't.
- [65:31]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
I think he's. I mean, that guy has got so much plastic surgery.
- [65:35]
Frank Perez (El Mayo's lawyer)
Sure.
- [65:35]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
He looks like a cat or something. Like, I would not be. I would not be in the hemisphere, let alone anywhere near Mexico right now if I was. Yeah, I mean, look, in an ideal world, we're getting you a plane out to find this guy. I don't know, like you go into Chihuahua or something. Just put the Patreon to good use. Let's get Danny on the road meeting Hando the pilot. God, what a great episode that'll be. If anyone's listening, pay for that flight. So anyway, yes, there you have it. We'll probably draw a line under Moyo from here on, but the Sinaloa Civil War is obviously something we're going to come back to frequently. It's not going away. In fact, in many ways it is getting a lot worse. And the connections between it and Mexican politics are causing the entire country to buckle. Watch this space. Do not Instagram your crimes. Sign up to all our social channels, buy our shit, watch our YouTubes, do your job, be nice people, and we'll see you next week.
- [66:37]
Danny Gold
That's great. That was a great ending.
- [66:38]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
Terrific.
- [66:39]
Host/Lead Narrator (possibly Sean Williams or main podcast host)
Thank you. Sam.
- [67:10]
Steph Casella (Asset forfeiture expert)
Sa.
- [67:53]
Danny Gold
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