The Underworld Podcast
Episode: Mexico's Most Sociopathic Druglord: El Mencho & CJNG
Date: March 25, 2025
Hosts: Sean Williams and Danny Gold
Overview
This episode delves deep into the rise and reign of Nemesio Oseguera Cervantes, known as "El Mencho," leader of the Jalisco New Generation Cartel (CJNG). Journalists Sean Williams and Danny Gold lay bare the CJNG’s ultra-violent origins, their transformation into one of the world’s most powerful criminal organizations, and how El Mencho’s shadowy leadership drives Mexico’s ongoing drug war to new, terrifying extremes. The hosts also analyze the Mexican state’s failed strategies, the involvement of paramilitary forces, and the widespread collateral damage inflicted on civilians and local economies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Jalisco Ambush—CJNG’s Bloody Emergence
[02:00 - 04:20]
- Sean recounts the infamous 2015 Jalisco ambush, where CJNG forces killed 15 elite police officers in a military-style attack.
“A barricade of burning vehicles. An impassable inferno … those who climb out of the vehicles are cut down by gunfire. Those who can’t are burned alive.” – Sean [01:28]
- The attack signals a new, more brazen and militarized phase in Mexico’s drug war and showcases CJNG’s tactical abilities and ruthlessness.
2. Myth vs. Reality: El Mencho, the “Ghost” Narco
[07:15 - 09:00]
- Despite being perhaps the world’s most powerful drug lord, El Mencho remains an enigma—few photos exist, and stories are scarce.
“Only a handful of photos of Mencho are known to exist. Even the State Department's description … comically nondescript.” – Sean, quoting Josh Eells [07:57]
- Unlike other kingpins (El Chapo or Escobar), El Mencho cultivates fear, not celebrity, moving constantly and hiding in rural strongholds.
3. Origins: From Avocado Fields to US Prisons
[11:00 - 13:00]
- Born into poverty in Naranjo de Chila, Michoacan, Mencho worked for the Valencia family (Avocado Cartel).
- Immigrated to California at 14, arrested for drug offenses, and learned critical skills as a lookout.
“This guy is pretty dead-eyed, and it’s gonna come out a lot more as we go through the show.” – Sean [13:04]
- After deportation, Mencho became a cop in Mexico—a testament to deep police corruption within the system.
4. CJNG’s Rise—Tactics of Extreme Violence and Innovation
[14:00 - 17:00]
- CJNG evolved from the Millenio cartel, capitalizing on the turbulent splintering of Mexican drug groups.
- Sean details how the region’s fertile land, ports, and thriving pharmaceutical industry made Jalisco ideal for methamphetamine production.
- Growing control over avocados and other legal economies illustrates the cartel’s economic diversification.
5. Outpacing Competitors: Warfare, Alliances, Betrayal
[17:44 - 20:00]
- Vessel for “new group Mata Zetas”—vigilante rhetoric, yet responsible for mass killings and escalating brutality.
“We are the new group Mata Zetas and we are against kidnapping, extortion ... for a cleaner Mexico.” – CJNG communique [19:10]
- Dumping 35 tortured bodies in Veracruz marked their arrival; police alleged all were rival criminals—an assertion the hosts doubt.
6. Paramilitaries, Fragmentation, & State Failures
[22:52 - 25:30]
- Organized crime expert Eduardo Buscaglia describes the paramilitarization of Mexico—cartels battle for control of not just drugs but a panoply of illicit markets (avocados, limes, oil, etc.).
“There is an orgy of violence.” – Buscaglia [22:52]
- CJNG’s attacks start as Sinaloa’s proxy but soon build their own empire, directly challenging state forces with shocking innovations—roadblocks, helicopter shootdowns, mass arson.
7. Mencho’s Cult & CJNG’s Globalized Crime Business
[25:45 - 29:00]
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Mencho inspires fierce loyalty, maintaining secrecy and myths—possibly running the cartel from hidden mountain outposts, even connected to a dialysis machine.
-
Unlike flamboyant predecessors, Mencho invests in paramilitary resources, armored vehicles, mercenaries from Guatemala and El Salvador, and advanced weaponry.
“He’s created this powerful cult of personality, but he’s different. He moves in the shadows.” – Sean [26:00] “He is deadlier than the rattlesnake, and totally more deadly than El Chapo.” – Mike Vigil, DEA (quoted by Sean) [27:55]
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CJNG floods the US with meth and fentanyl, launder money through farming, real estate, and legitimate businesses, using violence and terror for dominance.
8. Dominance Through Terror—CJNG’s War Tactics
[36:09 - 45:42]
- The 2019 killing and acid-dissolution of three film students in Guadalajara; terror attacks on officials (grenade at US Consulate, assassination attempts on Mexico City’s police chief).
- Use of drones for bombings and psychological warfare.
- Cartel battles devastate towns; thousands displaced, Michoacan becomes a ghost region.
“It's dizzying. Once politicians picked cartels, now cartels pick politicians... and that's a terrifying thing for civilians caught in the crossfire.” – Sean [45:46]
Notable Quotes & Moments
-
On fanboy culture:
“I wanted to say this … off the tail of this guy with some of the things his cartel has actually done … CJNG foot soldiers raped, murdered, and set fire to a 10-year-old girl they'd misidentified as a rival cartel member's daughter.” – Sean [09:38]
(Reminder that celebrating cartel culture whitewashes horrifying violence.) -
On the failure of the state:
“AMLO pledges something radical—he is going to end the drug war. Plot twist: he doesn't.” – Sean [34:00]
President Andrés Manuel López Obrador’s “hugs, not gunshots” policy does little to decrease violence. -
On violence normalization:
“Decapitated bodies and corpses hanging from bridges are part of the daily landscape of violence that is experienced in many part of the countries.” – Security analyst (quoted by Sean) [49:35]
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On the cyclical nature of the drug war:
“This whole thing is whack-a-mole, right? Except every time you whack a mole like this, a bigger, even shittier mole comes out of the next hole. And right now, El Mencho is the worst mole we've ever had to deal with.” – Sean quoting Chris Dalby [50:54]
Key Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:00 | Recounting the 2015 Jalisco ambush | | 07:38 | Mencho’s identity as a ghost narco, anti-Chapo | | 09:38 | The psychopathic violence of CJNG—pattern of ultra-violence | | 11:22 | Mencho’s beginnings and early exposure to the narco world | | 13:04 | Mencho as a state police officer—police corruption in Mexico | | 14:28 | The Jalisco region’s importance in narco logistics and pharma | | 19:10 | The Veracruz massacre and CJNG’s “Mata Zetas” messaging | | 22:52 | Analysis of cartel paramilitarization—Eduardo Buscaglia’s comments | | 25:45 | Mencho’s mythmaking, cult, and infamy | | 27:55 | Mike Vigil on Mencho’s prowess and threat level | | 34:00 | AMLO’s “end of the drug war” policy and its abject failure | | 36:09 | Shocking civilian toll—student murders and cartel violence spillover | | 45:42 | Michoacan’s collapse—drones, tanks, ungovernable ghost towns | | 49:35 | Statistics on mass graves and normalization of violence | | 50:54 | “Whack-a-mole” effect—capturing leaders does nothing to curb the violence |
Conclusion and Takeaways
The episode paints a chilling, intricate portrait of El Mencho and the CJNG—how calculated ruthlessness, economic innovation, and the collapse of state legitimacy combine to drive ongoing, catastrophic violence in Mexico. The hosts argue that El Mencho is not an outlier but a grim product of failed drug war policies and that each successive effort to decapitate cartels only leads to more monstrous successors.
- “What we’re doing now with this drug war is just flat out not working.”
– Sean [49:58]
As the episode closes, the hosts acknowledge the complexity and darkness of the story, pointing out the lack of easy solutions and urging listeners to avoid glamorizing cartel culture.
Further Listening & Resources
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Extended Interviews:
- Keegan Hamilton’s bonus episode on CJNG and Michoacan on Patreon
- Caroline Rose on Captagon (bonus episode)
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Recommended Reading:
- Rolling Stone feature by Josh Eells on El Mencho (cited throughout)
- Cartel Wives by Mia and Olivia Flores (2017)
- Reports by Vanda Felbab-Brown (Brookings)