← The Underworld Podcast
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- [00:00]
Sean Williams
Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave?
- [00:05]
Danny Gold
She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required.
- [00:12]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Did you have to fight a dragon?
- [00:13]
Sean Williams
Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually.
- [00:23]
Danny Gold
Okay, good story.
- [00:24]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana.
- [00:29]
Danny Gold
Delivery fees may apply.
- [00:30]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Hi, this is Alex Cancerowitz. I'm the home host of Big Technology
- [00:33]
Sean Williams
Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on
- [00:35]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is
- [00:41]
Sean Williams
changing the business world and our lives.
- [00:43]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
So each week on Big Technology, I
- [00:45]
Danny Gold
bring on key actors from companies building
- [00:47]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart
- [00:57]
Sean Williams
with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner
- [01:01]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever
- [01:04]
Danny Gold
you get your podcasts.
- [01:05]
Sean Williams
It's 2018 in the city of Koror, commercial center of Palau, a tiny archipelago nation in the Pacific Ocean. Once an Imperial Japanese armour's headquarters, bombed into dust by B52s and beloved by World War II shipwreck hunters. But little Koraw, home to just 13,000 people, now finds itself on the front lines of a strange and very different war. And this one is being led by a wave of international gangsters. You see, as recently as 2015, Palau was enjoying a tourist boom. That year, around 100,000 Chinese flocked to the island, palm quilted and surrounded by gin clear, shimmering lagoons, throwing their cash at bars, cafes and hotels and stuffing the coffers of a country whose entire population would barely fill out an NBA arena. Then suddenly, the boom is over. Plains grow empty. Within a couple of years, There are only 30,000 Chinese tourists in Palau. That is a lot of money gone. Perhaps Chinese people stop liking pristine beaches and coral reefs. Or perhaps it's got something more to do with the fact that Little Palau, this collection of Islands some 500 miles east of the Philippines, is only one of a few countries in the world that has diplomatic ties to not with the People's Republic of China, but Taiwan. And while Beijing can giveth in aid or infrastructure or boatloads of tourists, it can taketh away just as easily. But this isn't a podcast about Asian hospitality politics, however much Danny begs for it to be one. And as Palau's leaders soon discover, pulling the plug on visitors is just step one. In what looks like a very coordinated Chinese attempt to break the nation's friendship with Taipei, step two is just around the corner. And it's a lot more sinister around late 2018, scores of young Chinese men show up at Palau's international airport. But they don't seem to be interested in the sights. Instead, they travel directly to a series of run down buildings on the edge of Koraw. There they stay sequestered, fueled by food deliveries and a succession of sex workers. It doesn't take long for Palauan cops to figure it out. These are the foot soldiers in a new wave of organized crime to hit the country low paid laptop jockeys working day and night on scam and illegal gambling operations aimed at folks back home on the Chinese mainland. Their appearance wasn't completely out of the blue. For several years, Korur suffered the presence of heavily tattooed Chinese men, menacing guys who would, according to Palau's police chief, quote, just cut right to the front of the line, drive down the streets like they own it. These guys, the chief adds, were up and in your face. These men aren't just your run of the mill goons. They're members of long standing triad groups, century old Chinese gangs that are among the most organized and powerful on earth. Some say they're acting alone, predating Chinese citizens. Others say they're the tip of a new criminal spear wielded by the Communist Party, dispatched to cause havoc offshore and help pull nations away from Taiwan's sphere of influence and back to Beijing's. It seems to many in Palau's parliament that the computer nerds of Karor are part of a new hybrid attempt to bring them to heel, combining the carrots of Chinese investment with the sticks of its globe trotting mobsters. Politics aside, it says a hell of a lot that the scam illegal gambling industry, one thought to be worth some 2 trillion. Yes, trillion US dollars, has made its way to the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Nowhere is safe, not least somewhere as ill equipped as Palau. So on New Year's Eve 2019, cops act and raid the old buildings. But the drama that's only just beginning. And as the details of Palau's latest crime wave tumble out into the media, they'll implicate the biggest scam kingpin of them all. A man with armies on his payroll, nations warring over his business, and a fleet of homes, cars, and yachts to make an Arab sheikh, perhaps even Jay Leno, blush. This is the Underworld Podcast. Hello, and welcome back to the weekly podcast hosted by two grizzled reporters that disappears down the rabbit hole to global organized crime. It is a big hole, and we've got the experience and embarrassing life stories to investigate. I was going to get to the end that sentence no matter what. I am features writer Sean Williams in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I'm joined by filmmaker, documentarian, and luxury sunglass enthusiast Danny Gold in New York City.
- [06:05]
Danny Gold
Like, none of those things are true anymore. Except for the luxury sunglass enthusiast, even though I should be wearing one right now. Because we actually recorded this episode yesterday. And by record, I mean, tried to record it. It didn't record. We learned that afterwards. It's Saturday afternoon, I'm extremely hungover, and we're just. We're here banging out an episode for you guys. So if. If things are off, it's because my brain is not functioning.
- [06:28]
Sean Williams
Yeah, my brain never functions, but we're gonna. We're gonna make it through this. First off, remember to, like, subscribe, follow wherever you get this show. Follow us on social media, check out past shows and merch. Underworldpod.com we love to hear from our fans. And fake AI. Bangladeshi TikTok is too. The Underworld podcast. Gmail.com.
- [06:49]
Danny Gold
yeah, for support, go to patreon.com norwell podcast or sign up on Spotify or itunes for those bonus episodes that we do put out. But also Bangladeshi tiktokers. We're going to find out where they're all coming from right now. The ones that email us nonstop about bumping our SEO. That's what this episode is sort of about.
- [07:04]
Sean Williams
Yeah, I actually should have segued into that a lot better than I did. But today's show is a wild one, right? So not only does it show how China's politics and organized crime allegedly. Don't have to emphasize that too much. It's. It's pretty much nailed on. It shows how these things work in tandem, but it is also a lesson in how the scam industry has slithered into just about every corner of the planet. And you're gonna learn a lot about two of the biggest players in organized crime anywhere on Earth. One of them is China's most famous triad. The other is its most infamous scam lord, who may or may not already be dead as this show goes out. In addition to that, we managed to pull off a bit of A coup by bagging an interview with Palau's President suran. Gail Whips Jr. Who doesn't pull any punch about any of this stuff. Yeah.
- [07:55]
Danny Gold
Presidential interview. Look at us. Look at us stepping up, man. Have you. Have you ever interviewed any other presidents? I've interviewed, like, leaders of militias, gangs and stuff, but, no, I think the closest I got to a president was Saleh Muslim, who was the head of the PYD in Syria, which is like the. The main. Or was the main Kurdish political party. And I interviewed him at a very nice hotel in northern Iraq. But I. I don't think I've interviewed a president before.
- [08:20]
Sean Williams
That's pretty cool. I did. I interviewed the president of Moldova a long time ago, and then I interviewed the head of a breakaway part of Moldova. So I knocked off two in two days. And then I interviewed Eddie Rama, who is the president of Albania. That was pretty cool. He was talking about basketball and.
- [08:40]
Danny Gold
Love Albania.
- [08:41]
Sean Williams
Yeah, very. It's the best place in the world. We love Albania more than anything any other place. So, yeah, this is going to be a pretty crazy episode, guys. Nice little benchmark for the pod. First head of state interviewed. Hopefully it won't be the last. And we'll publish the entire interview with President Whips tomorrow for Patreon. MEMBERS SHOUT Also to Aubrey Belford and the Pacific team at the occrp, and they've produced a series of great pieces about this exact topic going back all the way to 2022. So before we get into triads and. And scam kingpins and politics with a mysterious femme fatale named Rose Wang, let's begin act one of this odd affair. First, a massive thank you for Speaking to us, Mr. President. Some of our American listeners will know Palau from its decisive battles in World War II. Some of them may have traveled there on holiday and seen its beautiful islands and beaches. Others may have read about the country's fight against climate change. But there is another issue facing the islands, one which we're going to talk about today, and that is organized crime. So could you tell us a little bit more about the background and when this kind of problem first emerged?
- [09:50]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Well, first of all, good morning from Palau. I would assume it's good evening in Argentina, and it's definitely great to be able to speak to you and, of course, your audience. It's always good to share about Palau, of course, the challenges we have, but also the opportunities and the positive things. So we are, we like to say, a big ocean state blessed with incredible biodiversity, and that's what brings tourists to our shores, but also we are located in the western Pacific. And the US would say we're the tip of the spear because of our special relationship with the United States when it comes to Asia, because we are only 500 miles off the coast of southern Philippines. So just to give you that geopolitical perspective, of course, it's. It was important real estate in World War II. As you mentioned, the Peleliu was one of the the fiercest battles that was fought in the Pacific and still known as the highest casualty rate of any US wars. So just put that in perspective. Fast forward 80 years and where are we again? Not only were we a South Seas China, I mean Japan headquarters during World War II. Now, of course, the United States has interest in upgrading ports, airports, radar facilities to ensure that we maintain a free and Indo Pacific. But of course, that also puts us in the crosshairs of geopolitical competition. Our biggest neighbor to the north, of course, is very much interested in Palau. They made that abundantly clear when I first got into office that China can offer endless opportunities. If you want tourists, we can give you millions of tourists. With that, they've made it very clear that it's important that we renounce our relationship with Taiwan. Palau from the beginning, when we became Independent in 1994, has had friendly relations with both China and Taiwan. But in 1999, we established diplomatic relations with Taiwan. And we've had those relations for the last 20 going on 27 years. And they've been mutually beneficial in terms of building economic growth, L.P. everything from agriculture, infrastructure. Of course, China has told us that you need to denounce those relations, but we haven't. And that has resulted in things like a reduction in tourists from China in the past or overtures that says, you know, we can do more for you. Also, what we've seen, and this is back in 2015 when we had the peak of Chinese tourism. They were almost 70% of our market. It was great. The economy was booming. And then we saw the decline. So it went from almost 100,000 tourists down to like 30,000 tourists in the span of about four years. But in the meantime, what we also saw was the increased activity of organized crime from China, the famous broken tooth. We also saw the establishment of online gaming centers. So back in 2019, I think we began the first crackdown of these activities. Since that time, of course, we went through Covid, so all those activities slow down. But we've been working very hard to increase our intelligence capability, trying to track down and see these types of activities and block them. But with that, we've also seen an increase in drugs. So you have online gaming, you have online organized, I mean Chinese organized crime. And then it seems like those syndicates are also affiliated with bringing drugs into Palau. They really established their roots in here more than 10 years ago. And what we've been doing, and thankfully with the United States, help with Australia, our recent membership with Interpol, we've been able to make lists and also ban individuals that we think are linked to these organizations. It's not perfect, but we've definitely made headway and we continue to the fight because we believe that for our economy to prosper, we need to have clean and a safe environment. And so security is very important to us. And top of mind, the recognition of
- [14:36]
Sean Williams
Taiwan is obviously a very important thing for, for your country. You see a lot of very strange activity going on in other countries that recognize Taiwan. Even here in South America, I mean, we're just below Paraguay and they've had a similar issue with some Chinese led, shall we say shenanigans in some border towns there. How much pressure do you feel to change that situation or to. How much does. How much do you feel a pressure by virtue of your recognition of Taiwan right now?
- [15:13]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Well, you know, that pressure is constant, whether it's economic because through tourism. So then, so I've been approached by people in the community, of course, business people that are very concerned about our stance with Taiwan and saying that's going to really impact our tourism. And so that there's, that there's also economic development or maybe infrastructure development in China with their belt and road and what they're doing throughout the Pacific and showing what they've done and that, you know, some cases is enticing to others in our community. We definitely have difference of opinions as our stance on Taiwan. Not all politicians support the idea of having Taiwan as an ally. There are, there are definitely some that think that we should have closer relations with Beijing, you know, when we want to solve problems.
- [16:09]
Sean Williams
Okay, so let's rewind a bit before we get into all of the gory details of this because what I find most shocking about this story is how it pulls two of the most important, most infamous organized criminals in China, the to tiny Palau and how they interact with a point man or woman in this case on the islands. So in the blue corner we've got President Whips, the Palau on police and their counterparts at Interpol and three letter agencies across Australia and the US and fighting out of the red corner, first up is somebody we've spoken about in a few previous shows on the podcast, and that is Wan Kwok Koi, better known as Broken Tooth. This guy has plenty of belts to continue just flogging this terrible boxing metaphor. He spent time in prison in China, he's been sanctioned by the United States and he's one of the most feared gangsters in Asia. Half a Danny Gold.
- [17:00]
Danny Gold
Yeah, and the Macau gang wars are pretty fascinating. Crazy stuff. I don't know how deep you're going to go into it. It might make for its own episode. I remember Bertel Lindner wrote a bunch about it in one of his books, I think, Blood Brothers. But we might need to double back on Broken Tooth and go through his entire sort of history because it's crazy for another episode.
- [17:19]
Sean Williams
It definitely is. We don't get into it much in this show. Love Bertlim's books. Not so keen on the guy. Wasn't very helpful when I was bumming around Myanmar. Anyway, so here is who Broken Tooth is. He is born in 1955, as Danny said, in Macau, then a Portuguese colony. It barely needs saying these days. But 1955, China, I mean 1955, anywhere is not the China of today or the anywhere of today. It's poor water. Life was different 70 years ago. It's a big call.
- [17:52]
Danny Gold
I've heard that.
- [17:53]
Sean Williams
Yeah, it is poor. War torn, largely rural, and only recently taken over by Mao's communists. The Great Leap Forward. Mao's lightning fast campaign of industrialization that won't even happen until one is three years old. A human disaster of course, leads to starvation, deaths of up to 40 million people. Little Macau, however, which is smaller than Manhattan, it's really, really small. This place escapes the worst of the devastation, but it is still an incredibly poor place. And Wang grows up in one of the territory slums and he makes his name in the ranks of the 14K, a so called triad or gang essentially that has its origins in Hong Kong, but which by the time Wang is a teenager has drugs and people smuggling operations all over the world. And we'll get into the history of the triads a lot, lot more in a few weeks. And that is when we're going to bring out a show about Shanghai's Green Gang and the origins of Chinese organized crime. Something I've been attempting to research for a couple of months now. But one bit of pub trivia is that the word triad is actually a translation of the Chinese term. Apologies to all our Chinese listeners, all five of you. This is San He Hui, which is the trinity of heaven.
- [19:06]
Danny Gold
Nailed it.
- [19:06]
Sean Williams
Yeah. Thank you. This really means a lot. Heaven, earth and humanity. Which gives you a bit of insight into how these groups emerge from religious and secret societies. But yeah, another day, another episode.
- [19:19]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I think we've actually done a bunch on the triads in a bunch of earlier episodes. I think you did one right on. I Forget which. The 14k, that early, early one with, with Donnie Barstool on White, White Devil John, the white guy in Boston who like was a townie and rose to become a high level guy in the, the Chinese triad gangs in what a show. Boston. Yeah, that's a, that's a really good one. But we've got into the history there, I think, somewhat.
- [19:46]
Sean Williams
Yeah, yeah. The, the one that we're going to do in a few weeks is going to be like way back before China was China basically, and how these things grew because it's super, super interesting. But at this time for this show, all this young man one is interested in is getting powerful. He's not interested in the other stuff really. And powerful is exactly what he gets. He wins a succession of turf wars throughout the 1980s and 90s and he becomes the leader of the 14K. Now Wan even produces a bunch of movies about the underworld, something which is going to be a bit of a theme in this episode. And also saying we got into recently with the Yakuza Godfather's Kazuo touka in the 1960s. But in 1998, one is arrested for the attempted car bombing of a Macau police chief and he's sentenced after appeal to to 13 years and 10 months of prison. When one emerges in 2012, he dives straight back into the underworld of macau, which in 1999 had been turned back over to Chinese rule. This time he's running casino junkets for mainland Chinese Martin Purbrick, who is a former Hong Kong police officer and author of the excellent Asian Crime Century substack. He even claims that Macau cops back then asked Wan to use his influence to keep violence to a minimum and according to the newspaper Macau Business, quote, establish a platform that promoted peace, harmony and unity rooted in Chinese culture and history. It's quite high minded stuff, isn't it? He also rebrands as a fierce patriot. So in 2013, Wan becomes president of the World Hongmen History and Culture Association. Yeah, yeah, there will be Hongmen jokes. Essentially these historic groups aim to, quote, love the nation, organize cultural exchange activities in various places, and pass on the history and culture of the Revolution of 1911. Just Google it, guys. It's a pretty big deal. In fact, these guys are a kind we can't go. We can't go that far into Chinese history. In fact, these guys are a kind of mix between trade guilds, religious sects and frats. Think Freemasons meets the Bilderberg Group, and by the time one is crowned their global leader, the Hongmen are a barely disguised front for the Triheads. New Year, New Me. Cute, but how about New Year, New Money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals.
- [22:17]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
You know you're going to crush start
- [22:19]
Sean Williams
the year off right. Download the the Experian app Based on FICO Score 8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details. Experian hey guys, it's Andrew from the
- [22:36]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Scary Mysteries podcast, where every single week
- [22:39]
Sean Williams
we dive into insane and creepy true crime compilations as well as cover the most terrifying and strange news stories currently happen happening all around the world. We go into all the topics you want to hear about, missing persons killers, UFOs and more. Best of all, we don't waste your time with any fluff or fillers. Just straighten all the dark details. If you like true crime, then you're gonna love us. So go check out the Scary Mysteries podcast right now.
- [23:10]
Danny Gold
Think about some of the cases that
- [23:12]
Sean Williams
defined true crime in America. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart, the Karen retrial.
- [23:19]
Danny Gold
Some crime cases are so shocking they don't just make headlines, they forever change a country.
- [23:24]
Sean Williams
I'm Katie Ring, host of America's Most Infamous Crimes.
- [23:28]
Danny Gold
Each week I take on one of the most notorious criminal cases, whether it's unfolding now or etched into American history, revealing not just what happened, but how it forever changed our society. Serial killers who terrorized cities, unsolved mysteries that kept detectives up at night, and investigations that changed the way we think about justice. Each case unfolds across multiple episodes, released every Tuesday through Thursday, from the first
- [23:53]
Sean Williams
sign that something was wrong to the moment the truth came out or didn't.
- [23:58]
Danny Gold
These are the stories behind the headlines. Listen to and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever. Wherever you listen to your podcasts. Yeah, I feel like I've seen the name Hongmen a lot in that period and then in triad history books. But good name. Like, I like that name. I don't know what it conjures up in my head, but. But I like the sound of it.
- [24:22]
Sean Williams
Yeah. I've spent a lot of my week researching Hungman on the Internet and it's been a great week here, Martin.
- [24:29]
Danny Gold
Yeah. Be careful, be careful with those typos, bud. You got to be careful, careful with those typos.
- [24:33]
Sean Williams
We. This is really. This is real low hanging fruit here. Here is Mar Perick writing for the Jamestown Foundation. Last year, the Hong Men quote, promote the Chinese Communist Party's key messaging priorities, such as patriotic rhetoric about national unification with Taiwan and traditional Chinese culture. They are also connected with criminal gangs. Hong Men have operated Chinese community organizations overseas for over a century, but a distinction between them and criminal triad societies with which they share rituals and mythology is blurred. This makes it difficult to tell legitimate cultural organizations from criminal networks, allowing some triads to operate under the Hongmen name for legitimacy. Okay, that's a lot of words. That's a lot of wordiness, but it's quite important stuff in 2018. One now popularly going by the nickname Broken Tooth, by the way, if anyone knows why he's called Broken Tooth, give us a shout on the email because I actually do not know and could not find out. He gives a speech in 2018 in which he lays out a goal to lead a, quote, Hongmen security company for Chinese merchants doing business along the Communist Party's Belt and Road Initiative, or bri. You may have seen this thing in the news. It's the largest public works project in human history. It's invested around $1.3 trillion since 2013, and it signed deals with over 150 countries worldwide, none of which, of course, a tiny palau. According to expert Jason Tower, Broken Tooth's goal is to build, quote, vast networks both with Chinese business actors and elites across the region, co opting them into its various schemes. Meanwhile, it parrots the narratives of the People's Republic of China government on a range of politically sensitive issues, helping it to build influence in favor of key PRC interests. So to recap, this is a violent, convicted gangster, former chief of one of the world's biggest organized criminal groups, who hasn't, by the way, renounced his membership of it since then, who's deep into the casino and scam game, and he is simultaneously going around saying he wants to be the muscle behind Chinese Communist Party or CCP infrastructure projects. Nothing new, of course, in gangsters getting dispatched to do the dirty work of politicians. You can just look at Hezbollah's drug trafficking, or Jamaica's politically charged gang scene, or the Surinamese warlord shipping cocaine from our episode a few weeks back. China has plenty of its own examples, from the predecessors of the Triads, the Greengang, who rounded up and massacred communists for the Kuomintang, to drug traffickers like Xiao Wei, who headed up the infamous King's Romans casino that still smuggles vast, huge quantities of meth and launders billions of Southeast Asian cartels.
- [27:28]
Danny Gold
Yeah, there's a lot to take in in that paragraph, but longtime listeners will know we've covered, I feel like pretty much everything that you mentioned in. In previous episodes. I think there was someone online who was like one of our Patreons who was like, you should put all the links of episodes that you mentioned in the description. It's just impossible. Like, every. Every episode now we're referencing things that we've covered in like seven or eight different episodes. You guys are just gonna. You're gonna have to listen to the entire back catalog. There's nothing we can do.
- [27:54]
Sean Williams
Yeah, yeah. I feel like if I was going to add links to that, it would take me as long as writing these scripts. In Broken 2's case, however, his next step isn't into narcotics trafficking for the ccp, but fraud, particularly the pig butchering and illegal gambling scene in Southeast Asia's Golden Triangle region. And that is where Thailand, Myanmar and Lao meet.
- [28:17]
Danny Gold
So this is the second week in a row we've mentioned pig butchering. Can you kind of just break down what exactly that is?
- [28:22]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Yeah.
- [28:22]
Sean Williams
So this might be the, I guess the Nigerian prince scam of old. Or like someone sending you an email saying, I, I've Colonel Gaddafi's ex wife and I've got a million dollars buried in a Libyan desert. Or it could be someone on TikTok saying, her name is Maya from China and she wants to fall in love with me, but further down the line, she needs a liver transplant or something. This is like, it's.
- [28:48]
Danny Gold
It's just. It's wild. It's wild how much money people are making off that and how much it actually works. Like, people, you know, we've all gotten. I mean, I get them like every other day, those messages. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I was getting lunch with Luann. I'm. I'm Maya. Here's my photo. Like, but this, it. It's working, right? Like, people are making hundreds of millions of dollars off this, aren't they?
- [29:09]
Sean Williams
Are they making hundreds of billions of dollars off this? It's like the biggest criminal market in the world.
- [29:15]
Danny Gold
We need a public awareness campaign on, like, really, like, media for, for that Dumpy. Like, media for dumpy. Like the worst podcast. We should be running, like federal commercials about not falling for these scams or like, you know, certain reality TV shows just to make people aware like, that you should not be sending money to a AI photo of an Asian woman that you've never met. Like, it's fake. Like, we really should be. You can go through the top 10 podcast podcast list. There's like five right there. They should be putting these advertisements on to be like, do not fall for this. It is not real. Like, there's no, there's no reason this stuff should be working.
- [29:51]
Sean Williams
It's. It's. It's pretty sad that it works at all and. Quite an indictment.
- [29:55]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I mean, I feel bad. Like, I, I don't mean to. Well, I do a little bit, but I like, it sucks, man. People are having their lives ruined. I think it's probably. I mean, my assumption, it's a lot of like, elderly people, no?
- [30:07]
Sean Williams
I think so. Yeah.
- [30:09]
Danny Gold
But either way, like, it sucks. Like, I genuinely feel bad for people that are. But some of them are just so low rent, these sort of scams. Like, it's one thing if you're using AI voices. Do you remember that. That New York magazine article that a woman wrote about how she fell for some scam where they called her and pretended it was like some invest. It was like, you're a journalist. Like, that was incredibly dumb and that person should. Should feel embarrassed. I still feel bad, but like, that was actually relatively high brow for a scam. These ones are not highbrow at all.
- [30:38]
Sean Williams
No, no. We were actually talking about another scam, weren't we, today involving the Atlantic, which is. Yeah, I don't know, maybe we should get into that in another episode.
- [30:47]
Danny Gold
But it was like the Cartel Olympic story that was so obvious it was fake from the start. And. Yeah, we can save that. We're. We're going on too many digressions.
- [30:57]
Sean Williams
But that was.
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Danny Gold
Yeah, that was a pretty. Or should we talk about it right now? I don't know, man.
- [31:01]
Sean Williams
I don't know. I mean, there's a story in the Atlantic that came out. Danny sent it to the group. I read it this morning. It's a good story. It is a good.
- [31:09]
Danny Gold
It's a good story. It's a good story. Yeah, it's written in a fun way and I think it could have been a well, well presented story about journalism and falling for fake stuff and how people believe anything and the Hollywood cycle of Hollywood buying into this stuff and wanting to make movies out of it. Because that happens a lot with a lot of BS articles and BS stories. But I just thought the way it was presented was they wrote it up, like, two thirds of the article acting like it was real, even though the author did say at times he was skeptical. And the sort of like, oh, man, Mexico is really corrupt, or, oh, man, the cartels are actually really vicious. And then there's a part about how, like, Mexico City is actually really nice and you shouldn't believe, but it's like, yeah, everyone knows that. To the point where Mexico had protest about foreigners moving to Mexico City. I think Americans and Canadians. Well, I think more Americans protesting that they were moving there because it was so nice. And anyway, I just thought it was. It could have been done a lot better. And it was silly to put that in the headline because a lot of people, like, I got that message to me being like, yo, have you read this? I'm like, dude, it's completely fake. Did you read the article? They're like, no, just read the headline. Most people don't finish articles. So if you write two thirds of the article acting like something's real, people are going to come away thinking it's real. It's not real. It was obvious it wasn't real.
- [32:22]
Sean Williams
I didn't. I didn't mind the conceit so much. I mean, it reminds me of that the story that I did, I actually, like, emailed the guy who is the film producer behind a story that I did that we still cannot talk about on the show, which is dumb, where I got roped into something.
- [32:36]
Danny Gold
Really?
- [32:37]
Sean Williams
Yeah. He's still getting sued. He's still suing me, man. It's insane. But, like, I don't mind the conceit and building the story around it, but there's no way that you're getting tipped off to, like, cartel Olympics and not just emailing, like, Owen Grillo. I mean, like, hey, man, like, you're the most established cartel guy in Mexico City. Is this ma. Is this real? Is this made up? And he's like, yeah, he just sends a bunch of emojis. Yeah, fuck off. And that's the end of the story. Right? There's no way the guy flew to Mexico City not knowing that this was bs.
- [33:10]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I mean, I. I would. That would be the first thing I did. I mean, maybe he thought he was onto a story that he didn't want to tell other journalists about. And I can, I can understand that in a degree in like, in a way. But you talk to one NGO guy and you're like, I don't know, it seemed like you talked to a couple people, but it was just like, I read the headline and I was like, there's no way this is true. And I don't consider myself an experienced head in Mexico at all.
- [33:30]
Sean Williams
No. And spoiler alert, the NGO guy is not real either.
- [33:34]
Danny Gold
Yeah, completely made up.
- [33:35]
Sean Williams
And maybe the, maybe the funniest part of this is that he did email Owen Grillo and was like, yeah, you should check it out. In which case, massive props. But yes, scamming is quite big and it's not even making hundreds of millions. It's making, by some accounts, like a trillion dollars. It's, it's huge. And if you look at photos of the kind of operations we're going to speak about in the rest of the show, you will see like floor to ceiling of like cheap oppo, like Chinese phones whirring away, doing scams like on AI now, like, it doesn't even need all the people. Yeah, that's when it gets really weird and meta and sci fi. But yes, this is, this is a huge, huge industry. And by the way, the phrase pig butchering means to fatten a pig before you butcher it, right? So you, you keep the mark, you string them along. Hey, I'm in love with you. Hey, would you like to pay for my ticket to Paris or whatever? And you just keep stringing them along until you're ready to basically chop them and take them for thousands, in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars. We've done a lot of this stuff over the years. We've covered it a lot. It is definitely the world's most lucrative criminal business. It's by some accounts, like I said, worth over a trillion dollars more than narcotics. And it's fueling the rise of entire scam cities. Now, these places are usually going to be led by a criminal group, often Chinese, which will then bribe local national officials and then employ one or more of Myanmar's warring rebel groups to guard them. Each one is manned by thousands of low paid workers, many of whom are enticed from their home countries with the promise of riches before having their passports taken and forced to work in terrible conditions. They're modern slaves, basically, and there are thought to be around 200,000 of them across Southeast Asia. Another little side note, actually, I was speaking to Nathan Southern last night and he's been doing a lot of. Obviously this is like his Beat and he was telling me that he's spending more time speaking to various religious leaders like imams and priests and rabbis to try and bring back people from all over the world who are enticed into doing these things. Like I think he, he said that he's working with a big group of Ugandans that have been basically trafficked into slavery in Southeast Asia. This, this thing is taking over the world. And so one of the most notorious of all of Myanmar scam cities is called KK Park. We mentioned it in other shows and it sits on the Thai Burmese border. It's got do buildings holding an estimated 20,000 workers, some of them having traveled from as far away, like I just said, as west and East Africa. Many are beaten and tortured and killings have even been reported there. KK park is powered by Starlink terminals and protected by the Karen National Union or knu, a guerrilla group that's been fighting Myanmar's military junta for years. It actually began as a partnership between heads of the KNU and a little known Hong Kong listed firm called Huan Ya International. Guess who Huan Ya is linked to? Yes, that's right. Our friend Broken tooth. And in 2018, as part of his move into the scam industry, Broken Tooth sets up a Hongmen headquarters in Cambodia.
- [36:54]
Danny Gold
So the Korean thing is a little interesting because I always thought out of all the militias that were active in Myanmar like they were a little more above board. I don't know. I mean I know they control that border crossing, right? But I figured like they're not like the WA. Right. So it's interesting to hear that they're heavily involved in the. Because I think they also have a lot of Western patronage, right? Like they only they. I could be wrong about that too.
- [37:16]
Sean Williams
They have, I think they've, I think they've switched. I mean I could be wrong about this because I always get like the funny thing about Myanmar, right? You read a book about Myanmar and there's like a glossary of a thousand different groups before you even get to writing. But I think they've switched sides a few times and they've become one of those BGs. The Border Guard forces aligned and they've been against. So yeah, I think they've gone all over the show politically, but they're definitely involved in setting up KK park. And the fact that Broken Tooth is allying with them through this like shady Hong Kong company which is obviously a triad front. And then he sets up this Hong mine headquarters in Cambodia that is going to put him into contact with the second of today's criminals, Chen Si. Now, listeners to last week's show, the Stash House episode that we did, will know a little bit about Chen. He is born in 1987 in a suburb of Fuzhou, the capital of China's Fujian Province and that sits around 100 miles from Taipei across the Taiwan Strait. Chen isn't born into poverty like Broken Tooth, and for a while, his life seems pretty normal. Here is Phoenix Finance, which is a Chinese publication that produces surprisingly good stuff about the young Chen. He was unremarkable in appearance. His nose was somewhat flat and his ears were small, considered an unlucky feature by the superstitious people of Fujian. His academic performance was mediocre, probably slightly above average. No one had ever heard of him receiving any academic awards. He had a low level of education, likely dropping out after the second year of junior high school.
- [38:53]
Danny Gold
Sounds a lot like a young Sean Williams.
- [38:55]
Sean Williams
Yeah, I knew that was coming. Well done. Talking of low hanging fruit. Anyway, I'm going to move swiftly on from that. It's going to make me too sad otherwise. This is in the late 1990s now, and having flunked his education, Chen falls into the growing world of Internet cafes. Remember them? They were great. Yeah, yeah, that was my whole backpack in life. First by managing them, and then he runs his own private servers on massively multiplayer online RPGs. Yes, that's the term. These are your World of Warcrafts, your Elder Scrolls. Though Chen gets into one called the Legend of Myr. Kind of like Final Fantasy, I think you just kind of build your own farms and towns and stuff. I mean, I wouldn't play it, but I'm not a 12 year old Chinese kid in 1999, so I think I
- [39:40]
Danny Gold
haven't played video games in years except for like right before COVID or right around the COVID time. I started playing this game that I played when I was 12. This game called Darklands, which is like a medieval RPG thing, was awesome, dude. I mean, I stopped eventually because I had, you know, life to live, but definitely don't, don't mock 12 year old Chinese kid's taste, man. Maybe, maybe that game rules.
- [39:59]
Sean Williams
I also got deeply, deeply into gaming during COVID because I mean, what else are you gonna do? Start a podcast or something and yeah, it's too dangerous, man. I had to put a PS4 in the garage and never look too good now.
- [40:13]
Danny Gold
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Sean Williams
Anyway, like many people at this time, Chen figures out you can make a lot of money running private servers of this game, the Legend of Mir in your own Internet gaming cafe and you can get your punters to buy in game mods and features with real life cash. Eventually he moves to Shanghai with this and bowl accounts makes a lot of money running private servers is known in China as quote doing a little something which is kind of cool. And another way of saying it's illegal. You're running your own private version of a public game which is straight up and down. Copyright infringement, which you know in China country that's made IP theft a cornerstone of its economy is quite funny, but it's still a crime.
- [40:54]
Danny Gold
I still don't understand how that private server thing works like in the States. I know there's like a rapper T Grizzly, I think, who makes millions off like running a GTA server. And I've always wondered how we could set that up for Underworld and and make money when they release that, the sixth one whenever it's coming out. I haven't actually done any research or looked into doing it whatsoever, but I'm hoping someone just kind of does it for us or explains it to me and then we just do it and make a lot of money.
- [41:18]
Sean Williams
How much would it cost? I think it would work out Dev to make a game of the podcast. That would actually be quite fun.
- [41:24]
Danny Gold
That's actually not a bad idea too.
- [41:26]
Sean Williams
Yeah, okay. Put it on the list.
- [41:30]
Danny Gold
Yeah, we'll never do it, but I think it's a good idea.
- [41:32]
Sean Williams
It's right next to email Lamborghini. Anyway, by the late 2000s, Chinese authorities have cottoned onto this massive fraud which is spilling over by then into revenue and money laundering opportunities for way more serious cartels. This is like height of China's anxiety over meth and addiction as well, which are obviously the purview of the triads and other gangs. Nobody is entirely sure what happens next. Some say Chen is arrested, others say he flees before he can be arrested. But whatever the truth, Chen leaves Shanghai in 2009 and he lands in Cambodia, which at that time is under the leadership of a man named Hun Sen. And if you want a brief idea of just how corrupt Cambodia is at this time, Hun Sen, a former soldier in Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, is in his third term as prime minister, having racked up 24 years in the role. Instead of devoting his time as prime minister to equitably improving the health, education and standard of living of the Cambodian people, writes Human Rights Watch, Hun Sen has been linked to a wide range of serious human rights violations, extra judicial killings, torture, arbitrary arrests, summary Trials, censorship, ban on assembly and association, and a national network of spies and informers intended to frighten and intimidate the public into submission. Yeah, a lot of stuff. Cambodia then is a perfect place for a runaway online fraudster like Chen Zi. At first he tries opening more Internet cafes, but in 2011, he claims that he's sinking his money into real estate. Listener. He's not just sinking his money into real estate. This guy is running illegal gambling operations, he's running scams. And from 2014, when he bags Cambodian citizenship, he builds brick and mortar casinos, particularly in the coastal resort city of Sihanoukville under the name of his new company, Prince Group.
- [43:28]
Danny Gold
So I was there a long time ago and it was like $2 hostels on the beach. It was still pretty kind of shady, like, kind of, kind of scummy back then, but then I've heard it's gone through this entire, like it was supposed to be there, like Thailand beach resort area was supposed to build up into that, but now it's like completely undone into something. Right, Just like giant scam casinos and all sorts of shadiness. No?
- [43:50]
Sean Williams
Yeah, it's like, I guess it's kind of emblematic of the criminal world at large, right? It was just like small time scams, gangsters running around, a bit of drugs here and there. But now it's like skyscrapers and scam compounds and kind of big white collar stuff. Pretty soon, Prince is involved in just about every industry imaginable in Little Cambodia. It opens luxury malls and founds Cambodia's third national airline. When Cambodia pulls the plug on casinos, because at least on the outset, they're causing a crime wave. Sihanoukville falls into a bit of a doldrum. It becomes a ghost town. But Chen just presses on and he launches a $16 billion scheme to build an eco city called the Bay of Lights there. Prince is even making luxury watches which it will gift to Hun Sen and world leaders including Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau at an ASEAN summit in capital city Penom Penh then awards Chen, Cambodia's highest civil title, something called I'm sorry to our Khmer speakers Niek Okna, which requires a half million dollar donation to the government. But he's dishing out cash in all directions to charities, government projects. He's even official advisor to Cambodia's interior minister. But publicly, he is almost silent. He doesn't give press conferences or statements on the record. And Cambodian people know him, if at all, as a wealthy philanthropist. Here's reporter Jack Adamovich Davies who's written at length about Prince Group for Radio Free Asia and he's speaking to the BBC here. Quote, I think not being the kind of flamboyant person that people will write tabloidy things about was smart. Even those who no longer want to be associated with Chen are still impressed by his quiet charisma, his gravitas.
- [45:36]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Jacqueline Furlan Smith, a 40 year old former Canadian military trainer, moves to Costa Rica to follow her dreams. But in the summer of 2021, vanishes without a trace.
- [45:48]
Danny Gold
How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her and she's still missing?
- [45:55]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
I'm David Ridgeon and this is Someone knows something, season 10, the Jacqueline Furlan
- [46:00]
Danny Gold
Smith case, available now on CBC, listen
- [46:03]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
and wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:06]
Danny Gold
So what do we think? Is he actually making money with all of these other ventures which seem massive, or is it all a front to hide the scam money? And also like, where does he, where does he find the time?
- [46:17]
Sean Williams
The last question is a really good one, which I don't have the answer to, but the first one, I think it's a bit of everything, right? So he's definitely making money off these giant sort of compounds and buildings that he's turning into slave cities and running scams and whatnot. But it's also quite a useful way to bribe a government, right? If you're, if you're kind of running out of options to just dish out cash to politicians, why not just launch a scheme to build a $16 billion city then it's clearly not going to be built. You might as well just sink it into various construction companies which just so happen to be owned by the president or the interior minister or whatever. So I think, I mean, he's pretty canny. And the way this guy builds wealth from almost nothing to, I mean, we're going to hear about it in a minute, but it's pretty unbelievable. I think it's pretty unprecedented too. I've never heard of people building wealth this quickly before. By the time Chen is sniffing around Palau, he has multimillion dollar properties in London, Tokyo, New York, I mean, pretty much everywhere. Those are just the three that come to mind. He has a fleet of yachts and supercars. He's running scams, illegal casinos and smart cities and human trafficking rings and crypto mines. In 2018, Chen even produces a Cambodian Action Mov. Get this about an investigation into a scam compound. He buys citizenship in Cyprus and Vanuatu, giving him freezer free access to markets around the world. Most people at this point believe he's the wealthiest gangster on the planet. I think they're right. And because these frauds are targeting folks in the US and China, he's got law enforcement from both countries after him. And this is where things get a bit murky, a bit complicated. Because while it seems that Broken Tooth and his Hongmen are at least working in lockstep with the CC ccp, if not directly for them, Chen's association with his homeland is a bit sketchier. Court documents confirm that Chinese authorities are investigating chen from around 2019. But he's also rumored to have close links to Chinese state affiliated corporations and the political leaders that run them. And the tens of billions of dollars of crypto he's thought to have had would be a perfect way to pay bribes across borders. Add to all of this Chen's connections with Han Sen, a quote, iron clad ally of Beijing, and it's just as likely the CCP wants to grab Chen so he doesn't fall into the hands of Western law enforcement and tell them where all the bodies are buried, says academic Xu Peng. If his rise to riches had something to do with Chinese investment in Southeast Asia, then if Cambodia sends this man to the west instead of China, it would cause a bigger damage for China. Pacific Islands are appealing for Chinese scam kingpins for several reasons. Firstly, they're often on time zones that work handily if you're ripping off people on the Chinese mainland. But they're also incredibly small with fragile democracies and a close path to power. Pay a few folks off and you could be dining with the President in days, a few weeks and you could have the president, the Interior Minister and the Chief of Police round your house for drinks. Palau's president whips however, is having none of it. Here he is again. Yeah, I mean someone as well, infamous really as Broken Tooth in the criminal world even in mainland China. People know who this guy is. I mean he spent many years in prison, he was the head of the 14K Triad, which is the largest triad organized criminal organization in China. Comes out and sort of reinvents himself as a bit of a, a sort of patriot, as the sort of ccp, sort of flag waving, quote unquote businessman around the region. So he could never be operating without someone knowing, right?
- [50:06]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Yeah. And, and then they're, they're doing charity, they, they want to help out and, and you know, they come in and the organizations, they come set up or non nonprofits to help the community so they do small projects here and there that's how they start. And yes, very interesting operation.
- [50:25]
Sean Williams
How does that, how does that come onto your radar? The authorities radar or the government's radar? Then when somebody comes into a country, a small island nation like Palau, and wants to set up a charity, how does that kind of suspicion lead to an investigation?
- [50:44]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
Well, I think it just has to do with getting more and more tools. You know, I think at first we were very innocent and we thought really these guys are just here to help setting up a good charity. They want to help a hospital with medical devices, you know, and then Covid came and they want to donate masks and do all these wonderful things. But that's where really digging into the background as a, is so important because then you see connections. Oh, well, not only doing that, but then they're leasing property, they're buying hotels. And then suddenly we find, well, and these are now linked to people staying inside those hotels or those apartments that are doing online gaming. So it's been a learning process for us. But I think what's been helpful for us is having this National Security Coordinator, our version of an nsc, to be able to track, coordinate with outside help and identify. And I, you know, we know that some activity still comes through. And now our biggest challenge is, is drugs. But we've definitely been able to deter much of it and keep it at least at bay. And it really just requires good intelligence and, you know, people in the community, you know, I'm very accessible. For example, I have messenger and I have, you know, it's not easy. It's, it's easy to get a hold of me. So people will just messenger me out of the blue and, and, and honest anonymously and give us tips and because, you know, they, they feel that there's no one there that they can trust and they want to make sure that it gets to the right person to take action. And so, you know, that's, that's really what it's about. And now recently, it's even foreigners that would read out, reach out to me, which is fantastic. I want to, you know, I want people to feel free that they, they have confidence that they can, can report corruption or bad activity and we can work together to clamp down on itself.
- [52:54]
Sean Williams
So that's the President Palau there, guys. His DMs are open. But that gives you an idea, right, how flat these societies are, how accessible their politics is. I mean, it's like really cool on one level, it's like super democratic, but it's dangerous on another. As President Whips said First, these guys come in looking to spend money, donate to local charities. But like any extortion, any gang extortion, once they get their feet under the table, they want to spend money on other less salubrious things. Whips won't be inaugurated as Palau on president until early 2021. However, when Broken Tooth first visits Palau in 2018, the country is led by a man named Tommy Ramengasao Jr. And Ramengasal doesn't seem to have an issue meeting the triad and Hongmen chief. Nine months after establishing his Cambodia Hongmen hq, Broken II sets up another in Palau. He was the OCCRP quote. Soon after his second visit, one told a Hong Kong media outlet that the Hongmen association would be used to build and run a Hongmen themed resort in Palau that would include a casino and Hongmen branded alcohol and cigarettes. Payments would then be handled using the currency called Hong Coin. A white paper about the currency written by one of Wan's companies specifically mentioned its usefulness in online gambling.
- [54:12]
Danny Gold
I mean, if this was back then and I heard about it, I would definitely have thrown a thousand dollars into Hong Coin and immediately lost it. Yeah, there's no chance I wouldn't have done it.
- [54:21]
Sean Williams
Truly shocked that you haven't already done that. Rally quote this is one or broken to saying this now quote I envision this to be a Special Economic Zone like Macau and I will have the final say in overseeing the development of customs ports and an airport. It's quite boastful stuff. This Hongmen Free Trade Zone will be located on the island of Angar. Sorry to our Palawan listeners for the pronunciation. In this episode, the site of a World War II airstrip and and it's around 40 miles south of Karaw. By late 2018, Broken Tooth is welcomed to Palau as an official, quote, guest of the government and he enrolls two state officials to set up his Ong Men office. He's even introduced to President Ramengasau by the third and fourth protagonist coming out of the Chinese corner in today's show. Number three. Enter Tian Hang, aka Hunter Tian, a 53 year old Chinese hotelier in Palau who's connected to key political players and just so happens to also be the head of something called. Okay, get ready for some word soup here guys. The Palau Overseas Chinese Federation. That is a group which aims to bring Chinese business people in Palau under the guise of the ccp. Another coincidence is that Tian owns one of the buildings used by the scammers who arrive in 2018 from the cold Open. And a third massive coincidence is that Tian is partnered with a Palawan politician in a Hong Kong listed group called the Chinese Economic Trade Promotion Association. Yes, Hong Kong, home of the 14K Triad. And this guy just can't catch a break. Working under Tian. A CCP affiliated business group in Palau is the fourth character in the Chinese side of this shady story. Wang Guodang, AKA Rose Wang, a long time Chinese expert in Palau and who in late 2018 introduces President Ramengasau to Broken Tooth. At the same time, Wang is working with Chen Zi, leading a Palau based offshoot of Prince Group, which I'm going to spare you the full name of that one because I've already thrown in about half a dozen insanely complex organizational names. And yeah, if it's doing my head in, God knows it's frazzling yours.
- [56:42]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm a little lost. Can you kind of break down those four people and like what, who they are, what they're doing?
- [56:48]
Sean Williams
Yeah, so we've got. This is, this is kind of the craziest part, right at exactly the same time we've got on one hand Broken Tooth, head of the 14k triad, trying to set up the Hongmen association in Palau which is associated with the Chinese government. That is to do with a bunch of guys that is rocking up in the middle of Karor doing scams. Now exactly like exactly the same time you've got Chenzi who is going through an intermediary in Palau, that's Rose Wang, to set up his own business in Palau which is presumably going to build the Prince Group's criminal empire. And all of these things converging at exactly the same time in tiny Palau. And kind of like the umbrella of all of this is that there is incentive for the Chinese government to try and change Palau's politics to get it away from Taiwanese partnership. Does that make sense?
- [57:53]
Danny Gold
Yes. I'm not going to lie, I tuned you out, dude. Like I said, I'm hungover yesterday. I think it made sense right now. I just. You started talking, I just, my eyes went cross eyed and I stopped listening. But I'm sure our listeners like really appreciate you breaking it down again.
- [58:07]
Sean Williams
Yeah, I'm kind of annoyed but also really jealous. Anyway, now we are up to mid-2019 Palau and officials know there is something up with those Chinese guys living in rundown building outside Karaw. Broken Tooth is trying to set up his Hongmen Macau style Free zone on that island I mentioned earlier. And Chen Zi, by this point, the world's richest criminal is also attempting to establish his own operation in Palau, which is a huge result on Angerblast. Forget that name guys. I can't even pronounce it. It's just a teeny tiny islet 40 miles north of Koror. Here is President whips began to see
- [58:51]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
all these proxies and found out that these are all connected to the Prince group. And they've been operating here very innocently because you know, they come in, we're a tourism destination and one of their properties that they purchased was an island that they were going to build a high end resort on. So it sounded wonderful but then they never went forward on it. And there's, you know, other. So these are the activities that go on. So there's a lot of these leases that these groups were doing. And then, and then was interesting that, you know, the one that I talked about that was interesting was just so happened that they wanted to do a casino next to the US radar site and that was the solution to our pension plan. So it was. And, and then they're connected to the Prince group. So you know, over time after we've, you know, you find a tip here, you go in and you investigate these people. And then through the help of different groups, really with the help of the United States, we've been able to really uncover where these people come from and really versus source. Oh, scary. You know, have small economies. We need to solve our economic problems. And, and when they're waving, you know, millions of dollars in front of you and saying here we can solve your pension crisis, we can provide all these tourists, then suddenly, you know, all your problems are solved. And if you're a leader, I mean it's, it's hard, it's hard to say no when then the rest of the congressmen are running around and the senators say well our president doesn't care about you. You know, our governor doesn't care about you. They're only thinking about US interest or whatever. You know, this is just, it's, it's, it's hard to convince them. I mean I, I think it's, we've been forward, we've been blessed that now Saipan has. The true colors have, have shown up and now we've seen other activities here. But sometimes we're blessed because things don't just move as fast. Whether it's environmental regulations, it's historical, or even our foreign investment board, which people complain that is very Slow. Suddenly they're saying, well, that's the greatest thing that probably saved us was we did have an afford investment act that most of the world IMF everybody had been here telling us, that's so unfriendly. You're asking too much information. You don't. Well, now they're coming back and saying you should ask more. You should know where the source of all this is. Even with the difficulty that we had getting permits, Prince Ruth did get through. And so now they're saying, you see, you should have done more. Well, the good news is that maybe we had a little bit there that was able to kind of slow things down and maybe we were able to stave off some of those big mistakes that could have been worse, right?
- [61:53]
Sean Williams
Palawan cops raid the Koraw scam center on New Year's Eve, 2019. As you heard in the cold open. And in late 2020, Cyril Whips Jr. Becomes President Whipps Jr. And he takes office in January 2021. Neither Broken 2's free zone nor Chen Zi's resort goes ahead. Tourism continues to plummet, especially in the wake of the COVID 19 pandemic, and it blows a hole in panel's finances. Yet Palau doesn't drop its diplomatic ties with Taiwan. And soon after Whips takes office. Angkar island, that of Broken Tooth's attempted free trade zone, takes on an even more significant strategic role when the US military announces plans to build a high powered radar system there costing up to a quarter of a billion dollars and aimed of course, at countering Chinese influence. In 2022, Palau joins Interpol, which allows it to cooperate more freely with law enforcement around the world. And look, I could get into all kinds of stuff around the US versus China in the Pacific, Doge and the death of US aid and how the belt and road is swinging a diplomatic war decisively in Beijing's fav the region. But you are not here for that. You are here for the organized crime. So let's fast forward now all the way to October last year, 2025. And that is when the US treasury, working alongside British authorities, sanctions what it now calls the Prince Group transnational criminal organization, a Cambodia based network led by Cambodian national Chenzi that operates a transnational criminal empire through online investment scams targeting Americans and others worldwide. US cops seize $15 billion of Bitcoin linked to Chen, which is the biggest seizure in its history. Singapore, which is another huge piece of this puzzle that I just could not fit inside the episode. It seizes almost $400 million of Prince linked cash while Taiwan takes another 172 million.
- [63:55]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 copilot It's not just something you made.
- [64:25]
Danny Gold
It's the privilege that you get to
- [64:27]
Sean Williams
work with your hands.
- [64:28]
Danny Gold
It's building something that serves a purpose, proof that you have the grit to keep going.
- [64:33]
Sean Williams
At Timberland, we understand you take your craft seriously, and we do too, which is why our products are built to the highest quality.
- [64:41]
Danny Gold
We put in the work so you
- [64:43]
Sean Williams
can perfect yours with purpose, in every detail and crafted with intention. Timberland built on craft. Visit timberland.com to shop as part of this sweeping action, the US also sanctions Rose Wang and six other people for their roles in quote, burgeoning operations in Palau, where the Prince Group works with known organized crime facilitators to lease an island and set up resorts. Many of you will already know that in January this year, Chen's friends in Cambodia finally buckle under the pressure from China and extradite him to the country of his birth. Beijing, in other words, did get to the guy first. And I would bet everything I own, which is, I mean, you know, not a lot besides this laptop, that we don't ever see Chen again. Problem solved. Well, no. Later in the year I'll put together another show on how the Chinese Taiwan issue is leading to all kinds of criminal shenanigans. That time in the Latin American country of Paraguay. But it turns out if the tourism shutdown was stage one of China's action against Palau and the introduction of gangsters like Broken Tooth and Chen Z was stage two, then the tiny Pacific nation is currently suffering a third stage, drugs. Here is the president.
- [65:58]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
For more we have a transnational crime unit here in Palau. We have and are so they were able to identify that there was activities going on and they went to these locations and were able to bust them. There was over 150 individuals that were found that were involved in these online scamming operations and they were tied to Broken Tooth. So that happened in 2019, over that period and we continue to weed more than we thought were involved out. And then we've had smaller raids that found other locations really you know, it, it involves intelligence and the local community that they see that these activities and they tell us what's going on. We also identify people that come in and they say that they were tourists, but they've stayed more than 30 days and they've overstayed their visas. So it's a combination of things that helps us identify these individuals and then target those locations that possibly the activity is going on. And of course, because they've been here a while, they have connections, whether it's in customs and police and immigration that they've also influenced. And that's, you know, that's really the core of what happens over time is when you have corruption, then it begins to corrupt people and organizations and that's the danger. So you really want to weed it out, cut it out at its root. And so what we've been doing is we've had changes in our police, part of police, we've had to change, we've changed retired customs. So we have new leadership now. And that I think helps us hopefully weed out some of the old, I think complacency. A lot of times, you know, these, whether they're in customs, immigration or police, they just get lenient and they think, well, this is no big deal, they've made friends with them, maybe they help them here and there and suddenly it becomes normalized. And these are why it's so important that we have robust systems in place. Like, for example, Palau is very fortunate. We have a special prosecutor that's outside the Attorney General's office. They can look in and investigate these things to help ensure that public officials stay out of these possible traps that they can then get into. So because we are a very open society and people are freely talk and media is free to comment, I mean, it was, it was a leak to the media that put broken to broken tooth picture on the face of the newspaper, you know, these kinds of things. So it's really the community working together and like I said, it's, it's also important to have allies that help us. And just recently I, I have to mention that one of our operations, we created what we call a National Security office when I got into office for five years ago. And that has been really the intelligence gathering apparatus that we've kind of brought together outside inside organizations try to build and know who's coming in, what are they doing and if we have bad actors and how to get them out. But now we've reached out to the Macau police, they've been very helpful. They've actually interceded and actually kept drugs from getting on the plane and getting to power. So it's creating those partnerships, building up those networks. And of course I've said in public that maybe some of these activities are state sponsored. And of course our friends from north have said, no, no, no, they're not state sponsored. We're willing to help you root them out and stop them. Because some of the scamming actually involves taking money from their own citizens. And a lot of it is so the same criminals that they're after, we're after. But my comments were sometimes you look a blind eye and send them from Macau to Palauso. Maybe just keep them there and don't send them to Palau. That would be helpful to everybody.
- [70:44]
Sean Williams
Was it really that the drugs then were the third wave, so to speak, of this situation, then if the tourism is first and the scamming is the second, then when did the drugs become a part of the equation as well? And which drugs are we talking about? Apologies,
- [71:03]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
methods and filaments. I think we, we first saw meth was a lot of it was coming from like the Philippines and then during COVID it was coming from the U.S. now after Covid, we see a lot of it coming from China. And then it just so happens we see kind of see a trend. A lot of these people that are coming into Palau had at one, one point been in Saipan. So we have Saipan connections now we found out they're also in Fiji. So they're kind of moving all around the Pacific. And so we're beginning to identify. And that's where it's so important that, you know, the whole Pacific works together and shares information because these bad actors will continue to try to go all across the Pacific. And now I know we have the other problem that's happening on the other side of us coming from the east is all the drugs coming from South America on these boats. So the new one now is not Chinese, but it's, it's cocaine coming into our islands. I don't know. That's partly because, you know, it's hard to get into the US So they're trying to find new market. And so, you know, it's, it's a constant battle.
- [72:19]
Sean Williams
And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's quite striking that island nations, I mean, when I was previously in New Zealand, until very recently, nations in the community, Tonga, Samoa from nowhere, suddenly have huge problems with drug addiction in their communities. And there are really no sort of harm reduction or medical facilities to cope with these kind of things because they've just come almost overnight. Is it. I mean, it. Was it like that in. In Palau? And how political do you think it. It is then to. To put all these drugs into the community?
- [73:01]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
No. Yeah. You know, drugs, they lead to corruption. They. They definitely weaken us because, you know, so many people get involved, and sometimes, whether they're politicians or related to politicians, so it just becomes an infection, or I guess we like to say cancerous, and it continues to spread, and that's. That's what you want to try to stop. But, you know, you're absolutely right. The other problem that we have is no matter what you do at the border and try to stop things and throw more people in jail, now our jail is. Is full to capacity because half the people and there are on drug convictions. You've got to work on stopping the demand. And the only way to stop the demand is you got to educate the populace. But also those people that get into the trouble, how do we help them get out of it in terms of rehab programs and all that and all those social programs? And we don't. You're absolutely correct. We don't have that. We don't have the capacity. We don't have people. So we're just throwing people in jail, and they get back and they repeat it. And so it is a big challenge for us. And that's one of the things that we're trying to work on, is develop programs to help those that are in jail and eventually when they get out, hopefully don't go back or young kids that get into it. How do we put them on programs to help them?
- [74:34]
Sean Williams
So an ongoing story there, guys, and that is the strange tale of how a triad, a scam kingpin, and a couple of local hoteliers tried to take over a Pacific island nation, and they probably did it to pull that nation away from Taiwan. Like, this is absolutely fascinating. I love this, guys, and I hope you do, too.
- [74:54]
Danny Gold
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot to take in, but I really feel you've done like five or six episodes on this stuff. There's definitely a book here. Even with just the episodes, putting them together and adding a little bit more. Like, this is. I mean, this is the organized crime, like, the craziest organized crime story. I think it's not as, obviously as sexy as, you know, people killing each other in. In Mexico or in. In wherever else. There's. There's crazy gang wars and stuff like that. But this is, like, the story of our time. And I feel like you have done a ton of work on it and could put together a really great book on this sort of stuff. Because people. I mean, it affects everyone, right? Like, everyone is getting scam, text, scam calls, things like that.
- [75:29]
Sean Williams
Yeah.
- [75:29]
Danny Gold
Not everyone is doing tons of cocaine, but.
- [75:32]
Sean Williams
No.
- [75:33]
Danny Gold
Yeah. I don't know, man. I think there's. There's something there. We'll get you on the morning shows. I think it'll. I think it'll pop. I think it could work.
- [75:38]
Sean Williams
I think about it. You are gonna have to send my partner a few messages, because if I come to Latin America and then tell her that I'm gonna do a book about Southeast Asian criminal cartels, I think she might attack me physically. But, yeah, there's a couple trips.
- [75:56]
Danny Gold
You'll be straight, you know?
- [75:57]
Sean Williams
Yeah. Okay.
- [75:58]
Danny Gold
Done all the work already. A couple trips to weird casino scam compounds. It'll be fine. She'll understand.
- [76:04]
Sean Williams
All right, cool. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, why not?
- [76:06]
Danny Gold
Yeah. Thanks, guys, for tuning in, as always. Patreon.com podcast if you want to support us or just want to listen to a full interview with the president of Palau, which you probably do, Right?
- [76:18]
Sean Williams
Yeah, it was great.
- [76:19]
Danny Gold
Yeah. Until next week.
- [77:16]
President Surangel Whipps Jr.
It.