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- [00:01]
A
All right, remember, the machine knows if you're lying. First statement. Carvana will give you a real offer on your car. All online. False. True. Actually, you can sell your car in minutes. False. That's gotta be true again. Carvana will pick up your car from your door. Or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines. Sounds too good to be true. So true. Finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy, it's their entire model. Sell your car today too, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Tron is back. Are you serious? And it must be seen on the biggest screen possible.
- [00:39]
B
Experience.
- [00:39]
A
Mind blowing visuals and one of the best film scores of all time. I just can't get enough. It's the game changing. Hang on. Cinematic spectacle. Oh my God. You've been waiting for. How cool is that? John Aries Radio PG13 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters this Friday. Get tickets now. It's the summer of 1993, 1983, in Chihuahua State, Mexico, just an hour or two from the border of Texas. And there's a cartel war that's been raging in the scrublands and canyons that dot the area. One of the most vicious that the region has ever seen at that point. And Pablo Acosta, otherwise known as the Okanagan Fox, has had enough. He's gone with some of his goons to stake out the 12,000 acre ranch of Fermin Arevalo, another top trafficker in the area that he's been warring with for years. Paabo and Fermin actually met in jail in the mid-70s, when both were locked up on drug trafficking charges and became fast friends. Pablo was pretty small time then, and Firmin helped him out, getting a lawyer, getting him money and getting him released. Firmin had had his own thing going. He lived a fascinating life. He was a rodeo star, a bank robber and a cattle rustler well before becoming a drug trafficker. He's famous in the area. Ruff. A real border outlaw cowboy who had good connections with all the growers in Sinaloa. He also had his two sons helping him. When he meets Pablo in jail, he's serving three years after getting raided. But he manages to run things even while he's locked up. And his sons help out on the outside. Thanks to him helping Pablo out, the families actually get really close. But friendships never last in the narco world. In the ensuing years, Pablo ends up becoming the top dog in Ojanagua. The boss. Loss of the plaza. And for mean, him and his two sons, they don't like that at all. Tensions rise and then Pablo loses a major cross border weed shipment in the States after the police are tipped off. And then starts losing internal flights to Mexican authorities. He starts to get suspicious, starts to think one of Fermin's sons is selling him out. And finally one of the sons actually rips Pablo off on a deal. Soon enough, some of Pablo's men come across both the Firming sons and there's a shoot shootout. One son is killed and the other wounded and the tensions break out into full on war. Bodies drop left and right over the next 18 months. Finally Pablo decides, okay, this is it. It's time for a handshake or showdown, Wild west style. These guys really are cowboys, bandit, outlaws. So he stakes out the ranch until he believes it's relatively empty. And then he approaches the house only to be met by Fuhrman's wife, who begins a back and forth with him. She claims he's not home, that he left, and at one point Pablo even hands his pistol to her and says she can shoot him if she thinks it'll bring her son back. It ends in a tense standoff. But Firmin isn't there. He actually had snuck out of the house on Pablo's way back. Him and his men are then ambushed by Firmin and his men. But Pablo manages to turn the tables on them and Firmin and his men are both killed. Paabo and his goons then head back to the ranch house to grab Fermin's wife and her maid and take them both hostage, not knowing if there's going to be a second ambush. But there isn't. Then they actually bring the woman back to the scene of the shootout to show them her dead husband's body. We opened him up like a goat, Pablo was said to have told her after one of his men used the machete to desecrate the body. Shortly after, an arrest warrant is issued for him and his men. But he spends 200 million pesos, or about a million dollars to kill it off. Pablo is now untouchable. The war is over. And he is the undisputed boss of Ojanagua and 200 miles of the Texas border. And it's a good time for a burgeoning drug trafficker to be in charge of that border. Cause something that's gonna change everything is just about to start showing up there in major quantities, coming straight off flights direct from Colombia. And Pablo's story, it isn't just about the evolution of a Mexican drug lord. It's about the drug trade. Itself because Pablo is at his height at probably the biggest turning point in the drug war's history in Mexico, maybe even for the U.S. i don't know. And probably the biggest turning point for Mexico itself in the last 50 odd years. This is the Underworld Podcast. Welcome back to the Honor World podcast where we tell fascinating stories about international organized crime every single week in the hopes that people like you will listen to it. And then meal kit companies and shampoo startups will give us, you know, significant amounts of money to then interrupt those stories and pitch their products to you, our brilliant listeners, in the hopes that you heed what we say about said products and buy them. And, and we are, me, Danny Gold, and my co host and hetero life mate, Sean Williams. We're both journalists who have reported on this stuff all over the world and Sean pretty much still does. Where, where even are you right now?
- [06:11]
B
No, I'm back in Wellington, mate. But yeah, I'm in between, what, Saigon and Tokyo, where I'm going to be in a few days, which is going to be awesome. I even bought a gimbal and a lapel mic for my trip to Saigon, where our next show is coming from, from some crazy slum there. And I kind of lost my nerve. I realized that to be an influencer you have to have completely. You have to have such a massive ego to walk around with a gimbal and a phone talking to no one. So I just kind of filmed a bunch of stuff. But yeah, is good. Life is very good. And I like to see you repping the Yankees as well. Shame about last night.
- [06:49]
A
Fire. Aaron Boone, dude, fire. It's just. It's too much. Not happy. But. But yeah, we should, we should get this going. Oh, you see the mug, dude, Classy hotel. You ever been there? It's like the. The one hotel that journalists stay at in, in northern Iraq and Rebil in the Christian neighborhood where you can get hammered and, and eat giant steaks. It. It absolutely rules. Okay, here we go. As always, there are weekly bonus episodes at podcast for $5 a month. Or you can support us just $3 a month to help us keep this going. You can also sign up at Spotify or itunes underworldpod.com for merch, t search and T shirts and things like that. And email us@theworldpodcastmail.com for tips, complaints, compliments. Maybe you have a clothing company or sunglasses company and you want us to wear your stuff on the air, Send us free stuff. We will do it. Okay. Are we good?
- [07:41]
B
Oh, yeah, I should. I Should mention there was a correction on that Epping Forest murders episode that we did. Yes, I mentioned.
- [07:49]
A
Embarrassing for you.
- [07:50]
B
Very, extremely, bigly embarrassing. Yeah, I, I said that the craze were running around London's underworld to the 90s, actually. They'd been in prison since the late 60s. They were doing stuff from behind bars, of course, and they, they didn't die for a long time. But yeah, I don't know how that slipped through the net. I think I was too excited about conspiracy theories with the, with the police. But yeah, well done for calling me out on it, guys. And please do send all your complaints directly to the podcast email. Not my email, the podcast.
- [08:26]
A
You know, if you were actually in Japan right now, which you're going to be in next week, I would make you cut off a segment of your pinky for brick and great shape on our name on the podcast for that.
- [08:35]
B
Yeah, I've got very small fingers actually, so it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. And I almost lost a finger once. But that's story. But yeah, I am sorry. I am sorry. I will take the whip out and go and sit in the corner for a while and think about my actions.
- [08:50]
A
All right. Pablo Acosta Villarreal, the OG drug lord. In fact, the book about him is actually called Drug Lord. It's by Terence Papa, and it's the main source of pretty much this entire episode. It was written in 1990. So I can kind of tell you, you know, before I think the Mexican cartel world was common knowledge to literally everyone. So I can kind of tell you, I think it's. It might be the first of the cocaine cartel era. And I believe it's also, well, at least in Mexico. And I believe it's also the basis for a lot of season one and season two of Narcos Mexico. Though of course, you know, it's. It's that that whole thing is dramatized. There's a lot of fiction in it. Even though it sticks to some reality. I'm re watching it right now. It is fantastic. Of the book itself, Papa writes, it captures, quote, the key moment when flights of cocaine from Colombia entered the Mexican economy. And you can only imagine House, however significant he thought that moment was when he wrote book, it's nothing compared to what it end up being. Trafgar Kimpins, like, like Pablo Acosta, they're a product of their environment. And I don't just mean like the atmosphere. They grew up around the people and the social conditions. I mean their actual literal environment. And to understand that you need to look at Ohanaga on a map. It's right there, just across the border of West Texas, south of Marfa, right inside or I think next to Big Ben National Park. So it's a border town, but on a much smaller scale than Juarez and surrounded by like scrubland and national park and in beautiful but harsh desert terrain. It's a major smuggling area for generations. And not just for like illicit drugs. Right. But it does get big during prohibition when soldiers stationed near Marfa, that's in, in Texas, if you guys don't know, coming into the city, they cross the border and they spend cash in the red light district there. God, we, we just, we love a border town here. And there's no better border town than the one where a country, country with super strict laws meets a country where no one gives a damn. And that, you know, was the US During Prohibition, the one with super strict laws and Mexico where no one gave a damn. So you've got Prohibition and Puritans one mile away and brothels and booze just one mile the other way. So you can only imagine how much business picks up and reminds me of like the. The Ethiopian border towns near Sudan. And let me tell you, that is what you'd call coming from like, you know, a place where it's basically Sharia law or close to it, into a place where there it's somewhat lawless and they're just, they are wild spots.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah. I remember a story about the, the Burmese Chinese border from a guy I met in Yangon that was pretty insane. But is there a good party scene on the Ethiopia Sudan border? Have you been there?
- [11:29]
A
You know, I have been there. If you want to get in some cot and like, chew it in a, in a house with a mud floor or like, you know, some of the saddest. Yeah, I wouldn't say party scene, but I would say it's lawless.
- [11:46]
B
Place to lose yourself.
- [11:47]
A
That is place to lose yourself. Or it's depressing, definitely.
- [11:52]
B
Okay.
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A
But cool.
- [11:53]
B
All right.
- [11:54]
A
So it's dusty and small, this, this town. And then it starts picking up during prohibition. And then we have heroin post prohibition, which had come to Mexico with Chinese migrant workers and then flourished as a crop in Sinaloa. And then post prohibition, Mexican criminal groups sort of ride and chased out the Chinese to take over control of those crops. Now, Pablo Acosta is a product of this region. Right. He's from a peasant family in the northeast of the state of Chihuahua. One of the places where you wonder why anyone settled there in the first place. It just doesn't seem like it's meant to provide life for. For human beings. His family are sort of traveling itinerant farmers who wander around the border region looking for work. His grandfather Lucas is born in west Texas in 1888, one of 26 kids. And he ends up working mercury mines on the US side of the border and has a son Cornelio in 1906, who's one of 10 kids. Lucas eventually settles on some farmland in the middle of nowhere near a spring. He has some goats and cows, has 10 kids himself. He made money selling mesquite wood across the border in Texas and also did some petty smuggling during prohibition. He smuggles Soto, which is a lesser known sort of cactus booze from the region and into West Texas. But that whole area is like kind of super fluid. I don't even know when it becomes the proper border defining line. I guess I should know that as an American. But it's really fluid. You know, people just move back and forth across. There's not really any. Anything really stopping you. After prohibition ends, he harvests some sort of wax from plants in the desert, which it was weirdly illegal to smuggle it out of Mexico, where Americans would pay twice as much as Mexicans did. And he brought his son Cornelio. Cornelio. I keep wanting to say Cornholio, dude, but it's not Cornholio. It is Cornelio that might be dating myself a little bit, but did. When, when Cornholio hit, it was like, yeah, it blew a lot of mind, man.
- [13:45]
B
It was.
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A
You were like 13 and that came out. You were like, this is, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. I don't know if you had that in London, dude. Just a, just a game changer.
- [13:55]
B
We didn't make any sense at school.
- [13:57]
A
No, it was, it was incredible.
- [13:58]
B
Anyway, where was referen are young Cornelio?
- [14:01]
A
His son is there. They spend a week or two harvesting, avoiding Mexican agricultural police agents, then bring it through the desert into the US to sell Lucas. He knows the desert mountains super well and he teaches his son that. And it was, it was legit dangerous. You know, the Mexican agents didn't mess around. It's the kind of thing where you're taking donkeys through the desert canyons at night and occasionally getting into gunfights with them. In January of 1937, he has a son he names Pablo Pablo Acosta, who grows up dirt poor in a literal dirt floor shack. Eventually, the family moves to a communal farm in former military barracks that the Mexican government was kind of setting up then, and his dad would go to the States for months at a time to work the fields there. Like I said, the border is basically a porous, fluid thing. Then eventually the family moves to the States. They're between sort of New Mexico and West Texas. And in 1958, Pablo's dad is murdered outside a bar by a man that Pablo's clan had a blood feud with. And it actually sounds super similar to the way Albanian honor kind of blood feuds worked. Someone killed someone a while ago, and now the clans fight each other over it. And any man is basically a target. Pablo's actually with his dad when he dies. They're at a bar together. His dad steps outside. When he's called out there, he's shot. Pablo hears the gunshot and runs outside to see his dad bleeding out. And that is what we call an origin story right there.
- [15:24]
B
Yeah, that's, that's Nayfeld worthy. That's. That's up there. I actually covered Albanian blood feuds. Crazy stuff up in the north, near Skodra, which is beautiful place, full of mountains and stuff. It was a. This steaming hot day, I think it was like 30 degrees. And the guy gave me a bottle of what I thought was water out of a plastic bottle. So I just necked it and it turned out it was home brewed raki, like 80 proof. And the weather wasn't the only thing steaming that day, Danny, I can tell you.
- [15:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, if people knew how many assignments just end up with you getting drunk by accident. And not just you, I mean, though you a lot. I mean, like journalist in, in, in general. But yeah, I think we talked about the Albanian blood feuds and honor code quite a bit in a bunch of the earlier Albanian episodes. We did like four or five years ago. But I remember there being an article in the, in the Times, I think, in the 90s about someone whose job it was to like, rectify them, who ended up coming to the States, like in the Bronx, where a lot of Albanians had settled in the 80s and 90s and like working to get people over them, which I think is fascinating job, you know, conflict resolution and whatnot, in that regard. So Pablo's in his 20s, then. He has a fourth grade education, has been in some trouble with drunk driving, fighting, all stuff like that. He works on farms or in cotton gins. And he's quiet, but he loves to get drunk and scrap. One of his arrests, the police report says, quote, subject threw a pitcher of beer through a plate glass window at the Steakhouse bar, which, you guess it sounds a lot like something a young Sean Williams was doing when his club played Millwall or he was hanging out in Berlin.
- [16:54]
B
Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Actual. You got your references, right?
- [16:58]
A
Yeah. I mean, I've heard you mention you hate Millwall enough that I finally have picked up on it. You know, in 1964, he gets approved as a US citizen, and that same year, he graduates from drunken bar fights to drunken gunfights, which he does in a bar over a woman. He gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon, gets it reduced, and does 90 days in county for illegal use of a firearm. Shortly after, he gets married and settles in Odessa, West Texas, which is Friday Night Lights, baby. West Texas forever. He gets a job in construction. It's an oil boom town. And he falls in with some co workers from Ohanaga who have a little side hustle going. And no, it is not drop shipping or selling courses. They are smuggling small amounts of that sweet, sweet Mexican black tar heroin across the border.
- [17:46]
B
We do love drop shipping and online courses though, right? Because we need. We need that money, too.
- [17:51]
A
I don't. I think the drop shipping craze is. Is over. But I think the course thing is still. I mean, I thought about doing like a course, like a media course, but it'll actually be. Be valuable. And I wouldn't be telling you to commit, like, tax fraud or that you're going to make a million dollars in some business selling, I don't know, houses that you buy, foreclose. I would just be like, you're not going to make any money doing this, but if you want to learn, I will teach you. For money.
- [18:16]
B
I mean, you could do. I mean, it can be both.
- [18:19]
A
You're not going to be like, yeah, I'm on board, too. On May 28, 1968, he makes his first attempt at living that life and is immediately caught after a tip off, which is embarrassing for a guy who becomes a drug lord. 31 years old, caught, convicted, sentenced to eight years. He ends up serving five. But again, Sean, it's not about how many times you get knocked down. It's about how many times you get up and success. It's not a diagonal line, Sean. It's not an L. It's a lesson. Does he throw in the towel and give up on his dreams? Of course not. Instead, he networks in prison like all winners do.
- [18:57]
B
Yeah, I think you should actually, I think you should do a course. I'm getting convinced.
- [19:03]
A
I mean, that was my practice route right there. So he like, me And Sean is charming and funny and good looking then and fearless. And he makes all sorts of new friends and new contacts in prison. Guys who have connections in the game on both sides of the border. One of those guys is named Shorty Lopez, which is just a sweet name, like quintessential low level drug trafficker name, you know. He's a heroin dealer in Odessa. They both get out around the same time and Pablo decides no more smuggling it across the border. He's going to use his boy Shorty Lopez, who has set up shop in Ohanaga to get the heroin and weed across. And then he's just going to worry about distribution in the U.S. now the drug scene in Ohnaga is evolving. In the early 70s, the dominant smuggler at the time Pablo goes inside jail is a guy named Domingo Aranda. And he's like a lot of these early smugglers, right? Especially the guys who were doing that kind of cross border stuff. He doesn't start out in narcotics or even booze, but regular commercial goods like coffee, sugar, stuff that was being rationed in the US during World War II. Smuggling is not just for illegal goods, right? It's for any good that is cheaper on one side than on the other. But yeah, he does, he does get into heroin eventually because profits and it's mostly sold to Mexicans or Mexican American dealers in the US. Then the 60s comes. Counterculture explodes, as does the market for weed. And he switches to weed. Ohanaga in 1970 is a dusty town of 10,000 people. It's struggling. Aranda's smuggling business is family run, cousins and brothers and in laws, they're all making money. But his reign on the top ends in the early 70s when he's murdered and his body is torched, allegedly at the hands of a guy named Manuel Carrasco, who was one of his runners, who is also nicknamed the Snake for obvious reasons. And he takes over the whole region. The murder actually shocks Ohanaga, which just isn't used to that level of violence at the time. I think murder is generally they are probably used to a little bit, but not like, you know, setting a body on fire. Carrasco, he's got bigger plans. He pays off the local military and police who he befriends and he really starts taking over. He's sort of like the next evolutionary point in the drug lord chart, right? The first guy who realizes you really need to work with law enforcement and the government. And Shorty Lopez, he works for Carrasco. And Pablo starts buying weed and heroin from both of them.
- [21:22]
B
Yeah. This is the story of so many guys who got rich, right. Figuring out that you can just bribe or work with the authorities rather than working against them. And that's going to be the same story with the guy in Vietnam that we're going to do next week. And the thing about that is that the fall from grace tends to be way more spectacular, which makes for very good podcasts.
- [21:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I'm excited about that, actually. The Vietnam stuff is fascinating.
- [21:46]
B
Yeah, super, super interesting.
- [21:49]
A
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- [22:58]
C
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- [23:25]
A
In Texas, the countdown has begun. Robert Roberson is scheduled to die. When the clock hits zero, it's over. But a growing chorus insists Robert is innocent. We didn't hear Robert. We chose to disbelieve him. And if the system gets it wrong, there's no going back. I'm Lester Holt, and this is the Last Appeal, my new podcast from Dateline. Listen now. Pablo's working actually as a roofer during this time, popping up a little on the radar of cops as he's moving like a key of heroin at A time In November of 1976, though, he gets caught up after setting up a deal with a guy who had been under surveillance. And inadvertently, the cops sort of get onto him, right? They're making an exchange that's in the desert. Two of the buyers then spring out guns. They call out that they're New Mexico State Police, and their backup starts flying in in a van. Pablo sprints into the desert as it's already getting dark, and he thinks he can get away. He somehow manages to escape and hightails it to Mexico. After hiding in a drain pipe and covering it with tumbleweeds. The cops know, they know who he is. And he knows that if he gets caught in the States now, he's gonna do a long bid. It's 1976 now. Pablo is in Mexico for good, and there's opportunity to be had in Ojanaga Carrasco, the current boss of the area, he's on the run, right? There's some crazy shootout at a hospital. He actually shoots and kills a guy he was partying with and working with who was from another sort of cartel. And I'm saying cartel, really? But these are like sort of small trafficking organizations. They probably have like 20, 30 guys. So, like, when you think cartel, when I'm saying this, don't think like, you know, Sinaloa or CJ and G, right? These are much smaller operations. So after he kills this guy, after they both get into a shootout with the police, it's a weird situation, but Carrasco seemingly does it because he owes the guy a debt. He blames it on the cops, gets found out, gets a price put on his head, and flees. And Pablo's buddy, Shorty Lopez, he takes over that top spot. He in turn, puts Pablo to work as a bodyguard and driver. It is actually funny too, how much of these guys start as drivers, you know, Pablo is allowed to still kind of do his own deals in the US Just as long as Shorty gets his Plaza boss cut. So Plaza, right? The way the Plaza works and Plaza's territory, right, center of the town, whatever. It's generally what people say when they say Plaza. You guys know this. But the way the Plaza works there is the various territories that people need to pay off to be in control, like authorities, police, politicians, the military. So who is running the Plaza doesn't always mean the drug trafficker or cartel, though. It means that too. It also means who gets the payoff. As Papa writes, quote, traffickers like Pablo Acosta operated under a system that was almost like a franchise. They had to pay A monthly fee to their handlers, police, or government for the right to work a specific zone. It was a form of private taxation based on the volume of sales with the money going to people in power.
- [26:28]
B
I guess this is, like, getting to the heart of why Latin American crime is so violent in a way. Right. Like, there's the machismo thing as well. But, like, if. If you're working on this plaster system, how are you supposed to keep it or hold it down if you're basically franchising it out, renting it out to incredibly venal, dangerous men with a lot of guns? Right. That's. That's like a recipe for constant conflict. I don't know. Is that. Is that one of the reasons? It's like, it's crazy how it's so much more violent than. Than in Asia, for example.
- [27:00]
A
I don't think. I don't think that's necessarily it for why it's so violent. I mean, everywhere people fight over territory for drugs. Right. I don't know. I mean, it's the amount of money, the power vacuum, the lack of. Of police, the corruption of the forces.
- [27:15]
B
Yeah.
- [27:15]
A
And I mean, they're just like, like, look, these, these were in border areas where. And it obviously ramps up the longer it continues. And I think, you know, a lot of these areas are like border areas that were Wild west, that had like, a culture already of like. Of like using violence to solve, you know, it's no different than I think the American west was, but probably like 100 years ago.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:35]
A
Or like my next episode, Stateline Mob in, like, the 40s and 50s. But I think that it, you know, because it's continued so long, it ramps up. You've always got to gotta. I don't know if impress is the right word, but you've gotta one up the person that you're competing with and the violence just. And you can kind of see in this episode how the violence starts ratcheting up. And in general, like, things that weren't done get done. Then the next guy has to do it, and the next guy has to do it. But it's an interesting question of what exactly leads to, like, these insane levels of violence. And I think the money is definitely a big part of it, for sure.
- [28:06]
B
Yeah.
- [28:06]
A
Pablo opens up a restaurant, a clothing shop, you know, he also deals in stolen cars from America. He starts really training with a pistol. He loves to fake draw on his friends, which I'm sure they really enjoy, which is like, you know, good one, Pablo. Pulling your gun on me again. For the sixth time today. Hilarious stuff. Funnier because you're wasted. And it's definitely loaded, you know, just not. Not a nice thing to do to your friends. PABLO. It's the era, though, of old school, simple deals. People from as far away as, like, North Carolina or Montana, they'd go to the riverbank on the US side, they'd yell across to a Mexican, strike up a deal, then come across and get it. Big Ben doesn't have a ton of patrols, and weed use is growing enormously. And it's a simpler time, but things change quick on the border. Carrasco shows up. He's back and he's pissed that Shorty has taken his spot, even though he had fled. He lays an ambush form who Shorty actually gets tipped off, but decides he's going to go through it anyway and gets killed. Maybe that's why the violence is so bad there, because guys are like, oh, there's an ambush. I'm gonna go through it anyway. Yeah, you know, not. They're not thinking with their heads. In a grisly foreshadowing of the decades to come, one of the killers uses a machete to sort of scalp him. Like, take off the top part of his head and his skull, and they make pendant necklaces of that top part of his skull, which is just cool stuff, guys.
- [29:27]
B
Yeah, like, which part of his skull? I mean, I'm trying to. I'm trying to imagine this. I'm thinking of, like, some nice big circle pendant, like some hippie lady will wear in New Mexic. Um, I don't know, like, maybe it's. Does that sound good? I feel like this, this could be a nice little accessory.
- [29:42]
A
Actually, it doesn't. It doesn't sound good. It sounds awful. Carrasco is sort of out of the picture too, right after that at the moment, because. And there's no big boss in Ohanaga, which means no one's paying off the authorities and no one's controlling the plaza. So the authorities, of course, get to work. They start picking off traffickers left and right because they're not getting their payday. And in 1977, towards the end of the year, Pablo is one of those guys who gets popped. He's sent to jail, I think, in Chihuahua City, which is the capital of Chihuahua State, which is where Ohanaga is. And he's actually helped out by a bigger trafficker from the area. From the cold open for mean Arevalo. Remember that name, because they're not going to be buds for long. Fermin gets him A lawyer, some cash, he's let go. So now it's 1978, and Ohanaga has a power vacuum. You gotta have a boss man to pay off the real boss man. The politicians, the military, the cops. But these guys are all like, you know, these bandit outlaws who don't really know how to do this. They probably don't even own suits. The Onaga traffickers, they call a conference, they gotta figure this out. They choose a guy to do it, and he literally just heads down to the Chihuahua City sort of area to meet the Federal Police commander and figure out how much to pay him. The Federal police commander eventually sees him, takes him to a dungeon to figure out this deal, tortures him for 3 days and then asks for 10k a month, which eventually he ups to 35k a month.
- [31:04]
B
You don't hear much about dungeons anymore, do you? It's gone out of fashion. No, no, no, I like it.
- [31:09]
A
No, you know, the guy goes back in Ojanaga, he warns Pablo and the others if you think we're bad, like this guy, the. The Federal Police Commander. What is the dfs, I think is the acronym in Mexico. He's a real psycho. And that's generally the case. But the deal is struck and Onaga is calm and everyone gets along for the next few years until that guy gets arrested by the DEA in Vegas and is sentenced to eight years. And someone else needs to take his place to control the plaza.
- [31:37]
B
So. So by this point, the guys are. They are big time. Like, they are cartels considered pretty massive by the dea, right?
- [31:45]
A
I mean, I don't know if they're considered ma. Like in. In that era. Yes, but compared to what we have now, I mean, no, these guys aren't even moving cocaine yet. So, like, they've got money they don't have, like, you know, buy a private zoo money or like, have guys trained as special forces that go and kill 47 people money.
- [32:04]
B
Yeah.
- [32:05]
A
So, like, they're big time in. In that little border region, but I don't think they're big time at all because also, coke hasn't hit, you know, it has. It's like tiny amounts, really. It's not much. Pablo, in the meantime, he's really gotten it together. You know, he's this gregarious, charming guy. People like him. He knows how to talk to folks, especially those with authority. He's also a great businessman. Right? He's making money and he knows how to spread it around. He's got small planes, he's using the traffic, he's Gotten to know the players in Chihuahua City. He's figuring out how to pay off the police and the military. And he takes it one step further than anyone had before. He gets in with these guys so good, he's getting official papers from them, stuff that lets him and his people legally carry guns and badges. He even gets his men officially onto the federal police force within no time. He's practically untouchable in that region of Mexico. He does stuff like set it up with the military, where he harvests his fields, his wheat fields, and then he lets them come in right after and burn them so then they can kind of show off like they're doing their job. In 1981, though, Pablo, he loses that big plane load of weed that we talked about in the cold open. And a pilot that he has that he really liked, he accidentally runs into the propellers after panicking when cops show up, a bunch of his men are arrested, including his brother. Pablo, of course, thinks it's a tape off. He blames one of the Sons of Fermin Aravalo, that same trafficker that we've been talking about.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, that. That is gross. But it also sounds. This is starting to sound a bit slapstick, like a Will Ferrell movie or something.
- [33:35]
A
Wiley Coyote, that kind of.
- [33:37]
B
Yeah.
- [33:37]
A
Vibes.
- [33:38]
B
Yeah. Does he step into it? Does he step into a propeller at any point?
- [33:42]
A
Wiley Coyote, that would have been a. I think so.
- [33:45]
B
I'm gonna show my son that episode.
- [33:47]
A
Yeah, maybe. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe I just have a. Have a bad memory of things. The Sons of Arevalo, they kind of stay outside the whole Ojanaga circle. They didn't really deal with the Plaza situation. They had their own situation. Their dad, for mean, gets out in 1979. But when Pablo takes over the Plaza, tensions are starting to build. They're not thrilled. They've got this young upstart in charge. Then Pablo loses that plane. And then Pablo loses a few more internal weed flights, and he's not really sure. But in 82, he does that deal with one of the Sons on a weed load, and he thinks he's ripped off. So he's getting really hyped up. Some of his men, including his top enforcer, who's a real psycho named Marco de Haro, they spot the brothers in town and they shoot them up. Pablo will later claim he never gave those orders. But one of the sons is killed, and the other survives. And after that, it is war. Marco will eventually earn the nickname the Butcher of Ojanaga. So you can kind of you can kind of get his vibe from that, you know. His mom was actually a smuggler too. He had been a police officer and bodyguard for a customs official in Sonora who was transferred to Ojanaga in 1976. The official was. Marco goes with him. Pablo puts him on in 1979 as like a gopher driver bodyguard guy who'd like guard shipments and guards fields. Still, the families are close enough that there's this crazy story where Pablo's wife, she goes to the funeral of the son that's killed, thinking there's no way her husband was involved. Which is, you know, it's vicious the game, just, just vicious. Two months later, Pablo and his top enforcer Marco, they're ambushed and their truck crashes. But Marco is able to get out of the truck and kill the enemy gunman and injure a few more.
- [35:24]
B
So now we're getting that crazy violence starting to ramp up like this. I would, I'd be interested if anyone's got any ideas on this, like why this world is, is like ultra violent even compared to the rest of the world. Just. Yeah, email us. I'd actually like to know. And I bet some people have got some interesting ideas about it.
- [35:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Pablo is, he's furious at this obviously that he's been ambushed and set up. He gets patched up in a hospital, he was grazed in the head, and rounds up his gunmen to go barge into the other hospitals looking for the injured sicarios, even using their Federal police badges to do it. He's trying to find out who for sure ordered it, even though he kind of already knows. They end up kidnapping one of the guys they find. They take him out to the desert where he confirms that the Aravalo is paid him $500 to try to kill Pablo. Of course they kill the guy and they dump his body in the desert. And the war is building. Both men are recruiting, they're recruiting soldiers. Within a month, there's another shootout. Interestingly, the state police commander is with the Arevalo men when they're ambushed. And later he'll try to arrest some of Pablo's men, but he's blocked because the federal police prevent him from doing so. So everyone's got their law enforcement guys that they're paying off, but Pablo's oned up them because he's got the federales, not just the State police. Within a few months, Pablo's brother and his bodyguard are gunned down at a dance. And during this three year war, at least 26 people are killed, which you know, this sounds crazy to us, but what's also crazy is that that's basically like a week or even like two days right now in the current cartel war. Maybe even one day. Eventually we get that scene from the cold open, the showdown, the kidnapping, all that. And Pablo comes out victorious. And he's now officially El Padrino, the Godfather. He's got soldiers protecting his wheat field. Not like his soldiers, like actual Mexican military soldiers are protecting his wheat fields and shipments. He's slipping 1000 peso notes to the beggars and shoeshine boys in town. He's lending out money to the poor he never expects to get back. He pays for medications, hospital visits, gives out water pumps and irrigation supplies to the local farmers. He's winning people over to his side. He builds bridges, figuratively and actually literally. He supports the sports teams. I mean, you guys know the playbook at this point. Says a young man in town to Terence Papa, quote, if anyone ran this town, it was Pablo. He was the one who told the mayor to. Says a young man in town to Terrence Papa, quote, if anyone ran this town, it was Pablo. He was the one who told the military and the police what to do if someone stole some weed from him. All he had to do was call the military and the police and they would keep looking until they found it. So he now he has this aura of, like, invincibility. His name is spreading as one of the top traffickers in the region, and soon enough he'll be the top boss of this 200 mile stretch of borderland. And his heroin is super pure. At the time, like 93%. It's mostly coming across the border by land, some of it in small planes. One big smuggling method he perfects is hiding drugs in the propane tanks of trucks, which is apparently something because of the gas crisis with the Arab embargo In the 70s, some cars had fitted their engines to take propane with, like, tanks in the pickup bed, which is crazy in my mind. So they find a way to stash drugs in them, which for back then was like, revolutionary.
- [38:43]
B
Yeah, Big Zeppelin vibes. Butterfly flaps its wings in Algiers and we're ending up in like, Latin America. It's crazy.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah, yeah. Pablo's also dealing in stolen American cars, mostly trucks, and trading drugs for guns that come across the border from the US and he has a major pot growing operation contracting out to indigenous farmers to grow crops alongside the Conchos river in Chihuahua. By 1986, it's estimated he has 500 associates working for him, just in the U.S. it's very fluid though. Most people only know their direct higher up. And most of the people he surrounds himself with are either family or longtime blood related or I guess longtime blood related his family, but I think they mean longtime people he did business with. He's got full networks in Texas and New Mexico. People from as far away as Michigan and North Carolina. They come down for his weed. Americans always come down to Oanaga during harvest season. They, you know, the buyers line up in these hotels to deal with Pablo, and he likes to scare them by showing up with half a dozen gunmen, sort of acting like badasses with cowboy hats and like, you know, the shotgun shells, bandoliers across their chest, which is a funny thing to do. I, I, I think that's great. Good for you, Pablo. Play the role, you know, with all those people. In the US Though, Pablo occasionally has some issues. And there's a number of murders stateside involving heroin dealers who hadn't paid up. Marco is the one thought to have been the guy behind them. In fact, by the mid-80s, Marco actually has to disappear for a while, allegedly because he was killing too many people. And it's said that he actually went down to Mexico City to work as a federal police officer.
- [40:17]
B
Wait, what? That's.
- [40:19]
A
Yeah, it's amazing how many guys not just got started as police officers, but then would like, go work as a police officer in the midst of, like, working for the cartels during this time. It's pretty, pretty crazy stuff.
- [40:29]
B
Insane.
- [40:30]
A
A couple of other big things happen in the mid-80s, too. The first is Pablo starts doing a lot of coke and then smoking crack, which is generally a bad idea. He's especially fond of the crackly cigarette. Like you guessed it, a young Sean Williams gallivanting around the plazas of Berlin. I'm just kidding. I don't think shock. I don't think Sean regularly smoked crackly cigarettes.
- [40:53]
B
No, no. And it was Bryce Lava when that happened anyway. But yeah, do go on.
- [41:00]
C
If you're obsessed with true crime, cults or conspiracy theories, I've got the perfect show for you. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is a new weekly podcast from Crime House and Pave Studios that dives into the darkest corners of human behavior. Every Wednesday, we uncover the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies and secret plots. From mass suicides and political assassinations to secret government experiments and UFO cults. You'll hear about infamous cases like Jonestown and JFK as well. Well as hidden horrors like the Octopus murders. And Starvation heights. But remember, these aren't just stories. These are real people, real events and very real consequences. So if you love mystery, madness, and diving deep into the world's most unbelievable true stories, you won't want to miss this. Follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes now wherever you get your podcasts. And for ad free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [42:10]
A
Introducing IVF disrupted the Kindbody Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup. While Kindbody did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patience. You think you're finally like in the right hands, you're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted the Kind Body Story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But yeah, Pablo is smoking crack, staying up all night, dealing with all the crazy logistics, getting stuff to the border, getting stuff across the border, planes, cars, trucks, getting the money, dealing with the political playoffs, the authorities, all that. It is a lot like being a drug lord. I know it looks fun. It is not fun.
- [42:59]
B
It's so many.
- [43:00]
A
Managing the most stressful business ever. So it really is so many spreadsheets, dude. It's not like the glory. The glory is very short lived and it's a lot of business. Even with all the crackly cigarettes and mariachi bands playing at your beck and call. And Pablo is starting to show signs of wear and tear in 1985. That's going to be time for another big headache, because that's when the cocaine starts coming in big time. And it's more money, more problems. Hundreds and hundreds of pounds. The crackdown on the South Florida route is in high gear with a myriad of federal agencies taking aim at Miami and the Caribbean. You know, we got the South Florida task force that's created in 1982, and within a few years they're really seeing results. Now, coke had been coming across the Mexican border since the 70s, but it was really small scale. But with all the feds concentrating on shutting down Miami and South Florida, the Colombians start eyeing Mexico. We're not exactly sure how Pablo connected with the Colombians, but it was likely through none other than Amado Carrillo Fuentes, the Lord of the Skies, who shows up around that time to sort of like apprentice or intern with Pablo. It's a wonder actually it wasn't happening before and that they chose the Caribbean in the first place, considering how wide open the border was then. And how much commercial traffic moved across it. But I mean, my guess for why would be the Mexicans already had their network there. The Colombians didn't have the power, like all the power. And working with the Mexican traffickers already controlling the area would involve giving up that power and profits that they just didn't want to at the time. Amado, for those who have like never listened. His uncle ran the Guadalajara cartel and he was sent to learn under Pablo and likely open up new cocaine routes because his uncle was connected to the Colombians already.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, and listen to our recent show about Cuba and the Castros too, because that, that has a lot of stuff around the roots for cocaine heading through the Caribbean back around. Well, pretty much bang on this time.
- [44:55]
A
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's the way it all moves. There's so many stories from the 80s, both in South Florida. All this is crazy stuff. By late 84, early 85 planes directly from Colombia are landing and dropping off loads in Okanagan. And the product is being stored at ranches all over. It's not all for Pablo. He's storing it for other big time traffickers who are sometimes paying him a thousand dollars a key just to hold it. But he is of course also trafficking some himself and getting those plaza taxes. That's the only thing about cocaine, right? Weed will go bad. Cocaine you can store for a lot longer. Soon enough, Pablo himself is meeting with the Medellin cartel higher up Carlos Letter. And there's five, maybe six tons of coke passing through Okanagan every month. Ohenaga is about to become arguably the biggest cocaine depot in all of Mexico at the time. And the authorities, they catch onto that sooner rather than later. In July of 85, a 19 year old kid driving a truck pulls into a desolate US border checkpoint. North El Paso. You know the White Sands, Tumbleweed, the kind of place the Roadrunner is always running around clip by propellers. Yeah, dude, those car too. I got. I kind of want to start watching the Roadrunner again, man. A lot going on there, you'll see.
- [46:09]
B
So you're so, so young. I mean, Wiley, Coyote, Cornholio, all these.
- [46:14]
A
Reference, man, they're yeah, Gen Z, golden era. That, that, that stop, it's not really set up for drug traffickers, right? There's more, they're more trying to get people on driving violations, expired licenses, drunk driver, like that whole thing. The cop working it though, he notices the propane tank in the back is a little funky. The valve is shut tight and it usually works better if it's open he had just put one on his own truck. And he asked the kid what he's running. And the kid says he's running propane. But the cop notices that the truck's dashboard indicates it's on gasoline. The kid is polite, but he doesn't have a driver's license or registration. And the cops kind of keep expecting that weird propane tank. And they're suspicious one of the police there with them had heard a story about weed being hidden in propane tanks. So they take the kid in the car to a nearby auto mechanic. When they finally get it open, there is cocaine.
- [47:03]
B
This is, I mean this is like, this is like word for word a scene out of a Cormac McCarthy novel is amazing.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah, there is a lot of it for back then 246lbs. The book says it's worth $50 million. But if you actually look at like cocaine rates, it's probably closer to 5 million. Unless Coke places were like insanely inflated back then. They keep digging into the suspect. They discover another shipment of 263 pounds of cocaine hidden outside his El Paso apartment in a truck that's parked outside there at the time. These are record setting seizures. And no one fully grasped the scale of the smuggling problem along the Mexico border. Then a call comes in from Los Angeles authorities there have just made a record breaking seizure of 556lbs in May. And there are striking similarities between the two cases, including that it's a truck with a Texas license plate.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah, this is crazy, man. I guess the mid-80s always seen as this high tide for coke in the US but is it just because it was relatively new? Because like, I guess these busts are, they're big, right? I mean they're not small, but by today's standards it just shows how, how huge the busts are now.
- [48:08]
A
Yeah, I think in Miami it was, it was quite big, but it's definitely not the, the biggest ever. Correct. I think, I think Toby Muse has even talked about how Columbia is growing more than ever at this time. So yeah, I think record breaking for back then. And the violence was also. Everything was new then, including the violence in Miami, which actually was probably worse than it's ever been in Miami. Yeah, So I think it was, it was massive, but it doesn't come close to what it is right now, you know, by then, cocaine is already moving through Sinaloa, through Baja, into California. But the truck confiscated in Los Angeles, like I said, as Texas plates. The El Paso team digs deeper and begins finding connections along with several local Businesses that were on the take, including a mechanic who modified the propane tanks used for hiding the drugs. What emerges is a sophisticated smuggling network rooted in the El Paso area. And all the threats ultimately lead back to one man, Pablo Acosta. The implications, though, are clear. This is the new route. El Paso is the new Miami.
- [49:02]
B
I am always saying this.
- [49:06]
A
The few DEA agents on the case start to get overwhelmed as they uncover more and more about Acosta's organization. And they form a task force. They're uncovering hundreds of people working for or connected to Acosta all around them. By February of 1986, they've convened pretty much every federal agency there is in the region. DEA, FBI, Customs, INS, IRS, U.S. attorney, El Paso Police Department. And they run through how big the operation is, the 500 associates, the guns, the murders, the drugs, and end with, quote. Current intelligence indicates that numerous public officials throughout West Texas, which include sheriff deputies, local police officers, state and local prosecutors, and other elected and appointed officials, are associates of the Acosta organization. Meanwhile, Pablo is having issues on his side of the border. In late January 86, as all this is happening, around midnight one night, Pablo and his nephew and another member of his organization are at a stoplight in Ohanaga. They're ambushed by a dozen or so gunmen who spring out of a group of cars and start just firing. But he's saved randomly by two civilians who accidentally drive through the street. Right when the sicario start unloading their weapons. They're killed instantly, But Pablo and his men get cover, and they run into a convenience store market, which the men then spray with more automatic gunfire. Some of Pavel's guys, though, they show up and there is a firefight, you know. You ever seen Boondocks against William Dafoe?
- [50:32]
B
Oh, man, I always miss that. And like, the people who are really into it, there were so many people deeply into it at uni that kept watching it all over and over again. I never saw it.
- [50:43]
A
No, it's terrible, but also incredible. Willem Dafoe in his weirdest role that you've ever seen. Pablo's guys are outnumbered, but they're battle tested, right? And the sicarios are young, inexperienced guys. There are gunfights all over town. There's running battles, chases. It lasts hours. Pablo's guys, though, they come out on top. There's bodies everywhere. The next day, soldiers show up and surround Pablo's house. But they're not there to arrest him. They're there to protect him. Pablo blames the Arevalo family immediately. The one son who survived, he's paranoid, he's crazy at this point, like I said, smoking a lot of crack. He starts kidnapping civilians who were just there at the shooting as random witnesses. He's showing up at their houses at 3am just trying to get a story of what happened. He's torturing them to get answers. You know, on the one hand, like I said, a lot of crack paranoia goes with the territory. But on the other hand, this is like the ninth time someone tries to kill him. So I kind of feel like some paranoia might be warranted. You know, maybe it's not just the crack speaking.
- [51:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, I kind of wish someone would kill him at this point.
- [51:46]
A
Now, as all this is going on, there's actually a US Customs agent focused on narcotics that's been secretly meeting with Pablo in Mexico, hoping to turn him into an informant. His name is David Regela. He is a badass. He's a storied past. He had been in an infamous gunfight with smugglers called the San Vicente Shootout, and had already arrested Pablo's uncle and one of his younger brothers. Anyway, around that same time, as the cocaine flights are starting to come in, he's connected to Pablo through a woman named Mimi Webb Miller, the niece of a US Senator who has gigantic ranch next to Pablo in Mexico. She's an artist who loves Mexican culture. She falls in love with, like, the border area, sets up shop there and marries like this outlaw type. Pablo's friendly with the guy. They had some business together and he actually helps her set up a horseback. Horseback tours for tourists. And Pablo and his boys, they soon start using her ranch like a spa or like a bnb. Eventually, her husband's heroin addiction gets to be too much. They break up and she starts dating this guy, David Regella, the agent. They, you know, ride horses, they raft in the river. It actually sounds quite idyllic. Pablo actually finds out about it and he knows this guy is the Fed who sent his family members away. He confronts Mimi. Mimi and she somehow talks him down, tells him she hasn't been giving up any info, that this guy's okay and somehow Pablo is cool with this, which is, you know, the whole thing is insane that he would be cool with this. She must have been extremely charming and attractive. A few months later, he actually asked her to set up a meet with the guy.
- [53:14]
B
Yeah, is. Is Mimi Miller actually the true hero of this story? This is the, I guess the intelligent play.
- [53:21]
A
I don't know. I mean, why?
- [53:22]
B
Oh, I mean, she's managed to somehow not get killed and inform and I don't know.
- [53:28]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll see what happens. But no, they eventually meet up and grow to like each other, exchanging, you know, their war stories, drinking brandy, all that. Pablo tells him he has nothing to do with cocaine, which is a lie, and asks what happened with his younger brother and Uncle Regella. He finally asked Pablo, like, let's. Why not work together? You have rivals, dealers who probably want out of the picture. Feed me info. You know, this is a classic thing that, that US authorities have done with Mexican authorities too, with cartel guys. But I guess this was early on in that. In that era. Pablo says he'll think about it. And with that, they sort of break off. They keep meeting, like every month or so for the next year or two. Pablo never really gives up anything worthwhile at first, but Regella thinks maybe he just wants to leave the door open, to eventually turn himself in and cooperate, like so many future drug lords have. Then, in early 86, right, we have that shootout and ambush, Pablo, he asks Regella to go after the Aravalos for trafficking heroin, because he of course, suspects they're the ones who try to kill him. He starts informing, but his tips are just kind of bad or late. At one point, they decide to work with one of Regella's informants. Pablo's gonna help him sort of figure out how to start buying their heroin, sort of get him in the scene, and eventually convince the son, who is still alive, whose name is Lupe, to come to the US For a big deal so Regella can bag him. Meanwhile, Pablo is super strung out, right? He's just inhaling blow at this point, not sleeping, staying up for days at a time and smoking cracker, snorting blow to keep him running his business. On that little sleep, it's kind of just like the early days of the underworld podcast.
- [55:01]
B
Yeah. Oh, the good old days. Actually, I can't take back what I said about Mimi Miller. We're actually the real heroes here. I can't believe we get all these 45 minute podcasts done week after week just for you guys.
- [55:14]
A
It gets to the point where friends are sometimes injecting him with tranquilizer so he stays asleep. Finally, he heads to Cancun for a few months to detox, to relax, to get away from the blow at the border. I mean, I guess Cancun was in Cancun yet in the mid-80s. And Tulum, like, forget about it. I get not even like a single sound. Healer had set up shop. Paabo stays for two months. He sometimes Pretends to be a bellhop to practice English with Waturas, which is hilarious. By April of that year, he's hitting the papers, though, as being a huge trafficker. It's the first time his name has been seen in newspapers since the 1960s, and that is a bad sign. He's clean for a bit after getting back from Cancun, but soon enough he's using again. More paranoid than ever. Desperate to kill off the Aravelos. He's always on the move, never sleeping in the same place twice, switching cars, only surrounded by blood relatives.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah, you're right. This is. This actually is like the early days of the pod.
- [56:07]
A
Yeah. In summer of 86, Pablo starts to tell Regella that he wants the Colombians out of Ojanaga. Pablo finally admits he was helping with warehousing and smuggling. Yay. That he helped the Colombians set up shop in Ojanaga and was making a ton of cash, but feared they were taking over and bringing too much heat from the us. He wants them out, the Colombians. For their part, they're making life tougher for all the dime store traffickers Pablo works with. The guys who would mule small amounts of weed and heroin across the river and the border because all the heat the Colombians had brought with them. Now there's a lot more American patrols and those like small time traffickers, they're getting pissed at Pablo because he brought all these Colombians in and kind of ruined their livelihood. Pablo wants to go back to the old ways, but you can't, Pablo. You just can't. Like time is unstoppable for us. There's nothing we can do. It just keeps moving, oblivious to the wills and desires of man. And we must accept this or it will drive us mad. Where. Where was I? Alright, Pablo. Then, as if his life isn't complicated enough, he starts a relationship with Mimi Weber after her and Regella had broken up. Which that this is a wild ass love triangle. Though it's supposedly amicable. Honestly, this must have been like some woman, like. Like a young Dolly Parton or maybe. Maybe even Jolene. Dude, maybe this is who Jolene was. Regella is worried about Mimi, though. He warns her that Pablo has quite a few people that want him dead, which obviously. But she's like, you know, doing the wounded bird thing. She wants to save him, thinks she can turn him around. Like a 33 year old woman in Brooklyn dating a skateboarder with a neck tattoo. Which ladies, it just like. It's not. It's not gonna work. You can't you can't. She also doesn't know too much of his dark side, according to the author of the book. But I mean, come on, like, she definitely did. She's in the border town. She has to know these guys are killing people. Left them. Right now, her brilliant idea is to get Pablo some positive press. So she introduces him to a few journals and gets a few small articles printed. But In October of 86, a journalist from the El Paso paper reaches out to Mimi to meet Pablo. He's warned by friends not to do the interview. Pablo's warned not to interview, but Mimi thinks he can tell his side and come out looking good. She thinks everyone's going to fall for him like she did, which is a bad move. Pablo has the reporter come meet him. He's got like, guns everywhere. Like, you know, the pistolero that he is, he's telling him he's killed people, but it's always in self defense. He tells the guy that the border is full of insane rumors and not to believe them. He confesses to being a drug trafficker, but he says it's only weed. The reporter asks him about the 26 murders he's accused of, and he goes through the list and actually claims responsibility for a bunch, but he says of course they're all self defense. He talks about the war at the Aravalos. He downplays how big his organization is. He says the DA is recklessly exaggerating, which, you know, they. They do sometimes, so fair play on that one. He also shows the reporter how he makes crack and then laces a cigarette and smokes it after claiming the only cocaine he ever had is for personal use.
- [59:08]
B
Do you reckon the journalist did the crack in the cigarette? Because I reckon he did.
- [59:12]
A
I reckon he didn't. Just didn't say anything because, like, come on, I mean, we've all, we've all been there. But it actually reminds me of. There's that New York article from a way back with, with Gail Scott Heron, right where he's like, smoking crack in front of the author and it's super depressing.
- [59:30]
B
Oh, no, I don't read that one. No, no, no, I don't know.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's a wild one. This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers. We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kath and Andrew. I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family. And seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
- [59:59]
B
It felt like I was the captain.
- [60:01]
A
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way. So, yeah, Pablo's doing the whole Robin Hood thing. He's talking about how he gives away 90% of 95% of his money. He helps the sick and the poor. He even takes the reporter to see a girl who's, like, surgery he paid for on her eyes in a hospital. Oh, and he admits to paying off the federal police, but pretends it's not organized or like a deal, just money here and there. So one of those details that you're like, probably, probably shouldn't have said that to a reporter. Afterwards, the reporter spends 24 hours with him, and he gets some good material. Pablo is just, like, straight up losing it though, right? He's forgetting things. He's being abandoned by friends and allies. Most people start to think the crack in the coke is going to finish him off before the bullets do. He's starting to ask Regela about surrendering to the US cutting a deal, also offering him $500,000 to kill off Lupe, the Arabella son. He even asked for a federal prosecutor to come to Mexico to discuss a deal. And as part of the deal, Pablo wants to go to prison in the US Not Mexico. Which is incredibly ironic considering how things change over the next couple decades when the stories start coming out, the newspaper stories with Paul on the front page and the title the Mexican Godfather. Things do not go well for him, especially the parts about him paying off the Mexican federales and having the army protect his wheat fields. There is upheaval in Mexico, to put it lightly. People are fired, officials are replaced, warrants are unearthed, forces are assembled. I think maybe this doesn't happen if he doesn't give up the whole paying off the authorities angle, but who knows? And. And Narco Season two Mexico, I think, does a really good job of dramatizing all of this stuff. Pablo flees Ohanaga. So do all his close people, including Amado. There's a massive Mexican manhunt underway from late 1986 into 1987. At one point, his nephew gets pinched after he had returned to Ojanaga to score some heroin. He was an addict and is interrogated and beaten to death by the Mexican police. Pablo, though, figuring he would give up his location, slips away. He's now the Most wanted man in Mexico at the time. And he's depressed about his nephew's death. He blames himself for what happened.
- [62:11]
B
Yeah. I mean, because it probably was his fault, right?
- [62:15]
A
Yes. Yeah, 100%.
- [62:16]
B
Yeah.
- [62:17]
A
He starts talking about trying to kill as many Mexican federales as possible, even if it meant he's going to die in a shootout. When before that, he had been thinking he could just bribe his way out, but now he's just, like, overcome with rage. He goes to hide out in this rural village in a canyon that's, like, super hard to access, unless you're coming in from the American side, from Big Bend, across the river, or I think if you're going to come in from the Mexican side, it's something like, you'll be spotted way before you get close. You'll have no element of surprise. So Pablo gets there. He spreads his money around. All the campesinos, or peasants are loyal. He recruits all the young men to serve as his protection. He gives them guns and everything. Soon enough, though, US park rangers across the river in Big Bend national park, they have a good idea Pablo is there. They can see all the action happening. The federales soon learn, too, from phone taps, but they're wary to go in. There's just, you know, because it's so hard to get into. There's no element of surprise. And they think Pablo would have too much time to flee and fight back. They know they're going to need that element. They managed to strike a deal, though, with the Americans, who are going to let the Mexican commandos helicopter in from their side of the border. On April 24, Pablo's guys are throwing a small fiesta in the village. They're roasting a calf on the open fire. There's maybe 300 villagers in total living in the entire enclave. And just then, two helicopters come through, warring loudly, and 20 or so commandos rappel down onto rooftops in a nearby field. Pavel's guys are caught completely off guard. The commandos are able to round up a ton of men in the village with, like, no shots fired. After 10 minutes, the village is almost completely secured. Pablo's guys are caught off guard. The commandos are able to round up a ton of men in the village. After 10 minutes, the whole outside is completely secure. Then they start going door to door, searching houses, rounding up all the men. Pablo ends up in one house, surrounded with two of his guys, and gets into a shootout with the federales. And it takes hours. They try all sorts of stuff, like throwing in tear gas and setting the roof on fire. They capture one of the gunmen Pablo's with. The other eventually surrenders. Eventually they storm in, only to find Pablo already dead on the bed, holding a machine gun. His funeral is held a few days later, and some sick narco carriedos are written and played for it. And one goes, quote, gone is Pablito, friend of the poor, killed by the government in a world that shows no mercy for people like that. And the gringos, laughing on their side of the river, prayed for Pablito to die. Yet he had done nothing more than give them what they wanted. I bet that sounds incredible in Spanish over, like, accordion music, dude.
- [64:47]
B
Yeah. And why haven't you done that?
- [64:50]
A
I don't know. Another quote. The tsar of traffickers is dead. Truly the mafia king. He always won respect in the villages and towns around. Everywhere else he went, even the bravest shook with fear. So the fox of Ojanagua is dead. A true outlaw bandit. He had the scarred face, the cowboy gear, the gold lined teeth. You know, he had the bandoliers across his chest. And he represented a transition, a time in the Mexican cartel landscape where things were changing rapidly. I always thought he kind of represented a more peaceful, less brutal era, but it turns out, well, yeah, but also the bar is super low because he did a whole lot of murdering. Of course, we all know what happens after Amado Carrillo Fuentes disappears for a while, then shows it back in Ojanagua, and while not in charge at first, eventually grows more powerful than almost anyone in Mexico. Becomes Lord of the Skies. The cartel system really emerges in the 90s. Everything is carved up and we get the Juarez cartel in this area. Later, there's rumors that Amato actually paid the police commander to kill Pablo, but the evidence isn't really there. And Mimi Weber, who was still with Pablo at the time, I think in relationship wise, not in the village, is informed there's a price on her head because she knows too much. She flees to California. Texas magazine reports, though, that in the early 2010s she's back in the area giving horseback tours. So good for her for getting back on that horse. Hi.
- [66:14]
B
Oh, waited over an hour for that. Yeah, I think everyone listening to the show will agree it was worth every second.
- [66:22]
A
Yeah, that. I mean, come on. What a setup. That was fantastic, if I don't say so myself. It might have been like a Sean joke, but it was also terrific.
- [66:31]
B
Given that people are going to be listening to this a week after the game. What are your predictions for the game two of the wild card. Let's just have them so we can laugh.
- [66:37]
A
Yankees. If the Yankees lose, I mean, they need to fire Boone. Like, it's Steinbreder would have followed him in the middle of the game yesterday. Dude, what he like, come on, dude. Why do you take Freed out? Why don't you start. I know why you don't start. Jazz. But put Jazz in her. I'm so angry. Patreon.com podcast because I'm gonna lose money betting on the Yankees to win the World Series like an idiot. Underworldpod.com sign up on Spotify. Support our advertisers. We love you, Sean. You're a great man and I'm just happy to be here with you. And you know, it's Yom Kippur in like, like five hours. So I asked your forgiveness, Sean, for. For wronging you in the podcast.
- [67:20]
B
I'll get back and I ask, you.
- [67:22]
A
Know, let's just keep going. I asked, I asked our listeners forgiveness for wearing sunglasses. I know it makes a lot of you incredibly angry when I do that in the studio. So I asked your forgiveness and happy New Year. Love you all. Support the podcast. Good night, beautiful. Sam. It it's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores. Experian this episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness month and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. LifeLock also phishing 6 is identity theft guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com Podcasts Terms apply.