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- [00:12]
Andrew Tuck
Hello and welcome to the Urbanist, Monocle's program all about the built environment. I'm your host, Andrew Tuck.
- [00:18]
Liz Diller
Coming up, I'm very proud to have, you know, touched a nerve for different parts of the world, different cities to, you know, rethink something that seems to be kind of obvious and to rediscover, you know, very conventional things like taking a walk.
- [00:32]
Andrew Tuck
We speak to the mastermind of the New York High Line, Liz Diller, as she kindly gave us some of her time to discuss past successes and what is still to come from her firm. Then we head to Bratislava's first dedicated center for architecture and urbanism. Plus, we visit Canada to see how a booming population deals with urban growing pains. That's all ahead in the next 30 minutes right here on the Urbanist with me, Andrew Tuck. Last week we teased a very special conversation which we recorded at the annual Utopian Hours Festival with the US Architect Liz Diller. For those uninitiated, Liz is a partner in Dilla, Scofidio and Renfro, which she co founded in 1981. And her firm is behind plenty of blockbuster projects, including New York's famous Highline. Liz Diller is full of energy. She spoke to us in Turin after arriving from London before heading to Paris, where she has a renovation project in progress in Montparnasse. She is also working in Albania at MIT Architecture school and on a women's mosque in Doha, just to name a few of some of the 30 projects that she has on the go. Our Europe editor at large, Ed Stocker stopped her long enough for a conversation about her work and began by asking, does she get bored of talking about the High Line?
- [02:02]
Liz Diller
I'll get bored when it's finished, which will never happen. It's always unfinished. But the transformation that continues to happen is really eye opening for me. And my studio's right to down the street, so I can't avoid it. I now use the High Line as a citizen of New York, but the neighborhood is very strange. You know, the changes since COVID really altered, you know, the whole sort of dynamic of that neighborhood. And so we'll see. But I don't really get tired of the High Line because it has been such a sort of spark of energy for other people. Other people keep reminding me of it. And I'm very proud to have, you know, touched a nerve for different parts of the world, different cities to, you know, rethink something that seems to be kind of obvious, spend infrastructure and to rediscover, you know, very conventional things like.
- [03:01]
Ed Stocker
Taking A walk, you said it's not finished. I remember when I was living in New York, there was a new part that opened. But how much is there left to do? Are there still bits of railway that are just not being utilized or just tell us a little bit about how far it can go?
- [03:19]
Liz Diller
Well, so far it goes to a certain point on 30th street, and 30th street actually continues unfinished on the High Line to the river, wraps around the Hudson Yards and then comes back around 34th street and then dies down. So that whole section has not been done. It's kind of strange because you think that it would accelerate growth in that part. And I think that when the Western Yards is completed, there'll be a reason to really bring the public all the way around. But nevertheless, even though it's unfinished, it's sort of asphalty, you know, it's like black tar. And people still go, and they go around the yards. And I actually think it's fantastic to be able to see the trains from there and that, you know, you can see that now when they deck it over, that'll be gone. So we'll have more of the High Line finished, but we won't be able to see the trains.
- [04:20]
Ed Stocker
So for now, there just hasn't been the sort of funding or will to do it. And you think as Hudson Yards extends into this new development project that is, as you referenced Western Yards, there'll be a desire to extend the High Line?
- [04:32]
Liz Diller
Yeah, I think that there'll be some capital to do it with. And, you know, in many ways, New Yorkers are exhausted. The Parks Department really doesn't keep it up. It's really, you know, donors, and I think it only gets less than 1%, you know, from city money. So it's really a slug, you know, who do everything and their activities on the High Line, and they really keep it fresh. It's really a great organization and educate young folks on the biological life there and so forth. So it's really terrific. I don't see any reason why not do it. But, you know, no one is like in any hurry to necessarily do it. I kind of like that it sort of feathers out into sort of nothingness. And I would like to hold on to that for as long as possible before big buildings start shooting up all around.
- [05:22]
Ed Stocker
I mean, one of the things from your talk, you showed the opera that you were heavily involved with, and you also talked about the fact that you don't just do architecture, you do non architecture, you do installations, you do cultural things. Again, I actually went to the opera. I was living in New York at the time. It was one of those magical, for me, anyway, New York moments, just being there. And I asked you before we were recording, you know, do you want to do that again? That was such a moment. Is there going to be another similar thing or another big cultural event like that that you will do on the High Line?
- [05:54]
Liz Diller
The idea of doing that particular piece was about the High Line, and it was with the city as a backdrop. It was a moment in time where there was that growth all around. And, you know, there was a lot of rawness, you know, around this very fast gentrification of this area. I think now there is an invitation to actually do it again. The first time, it was my initiative, my fundraising. I mean, the High Line cooperated fantastically, but I had to raise a lot of money and convince a lot of people, train a lot of singers, rent a lot of spaces all over to do that. And it took so long, really, because.
- [06:37]
Ed Stocker
You had people inside buildings, didn't you, as well?
- [06:39]
Liz Diller
Yeah, we also had interventions. There were maybe like eight or ten interventions in buildings all around. And I think what we'll do in this next phase, it will be a 2.0 version, so we'll bring in some more poets. We'll hold onto some of the material, we'll change some of the material. And I think we haven't speculated yet, but the divide between the wealthy and the not wealthy is worse now. And there's a more divisive condition in the States now than there was before. It was the beginning of it when we did it. And so we are in a bubble in New York. People cooperate. So far, the army hasn't intruded yet on our city. But there are a different set of issues now. So this compounded, maybe, and so there's more to contemplate, but I'm very happy that I don't have to knock on doors and try to raise money now. And we basically know all the problems. You have to figure out how to let people in on a free event, you know, on a very skinny line, you know, so you have to calculate how many people can go and how fast they can move. And the writing and the music has to be boring enough to make people keep moving. And so you can't imagine the kind of calculations that had to be made, artistic calculations, but that are also, you know, very pragmatic.
- [08:06]
Ed Stocker
It sounds, from what you say, like it's gonna be potentially more political than the first one.
- [08:11]
Liz Diller
I think it needs to be new Yorkers kind of band together, you know, so the haves and the have nots, you know, when you are in a sort of broader national situation, you know, where the city is isolated, really, you know, cities are isolated from the rest of the country. You know, we think we're so safe in cities. But, yeah, the country is moving in a direction that is very scary, I think, for many people. So I think it will be, you know, maybe more resistant and maybe more focused on sort of broader issues than just the city.
- [08:46]
Ed Stocker
Any ideas when we can expect it?
- [08:48]
Liz Diller
Yeah, you can expect it in 2028.
- [08:51]
Ed Stocker
Okay, well, we will watch intently how to plan a trip back to New York just to see it. I know your talk here in Turin focused a lot on New York, where you're from, where your practice is, the place that you love. But I want to talk a little bit, since we're in Italy, about some of your other work. Maybe you can tell us about Venice, about you become a barista.
- [09:15]
Liz Diller
We had an idea in 2008, actually, to use canal water to clean it, filter it, and to be able to serve espresso with it in the arsenale. And we had this plan in 2008. Aaron Betzke was the curator at the time. And we made great progress in convincing people at the city level to do it, but it somehow didn't happen. Something got corrupted, was engineered actually already. I think there are many stories about that that are somewhat conflicting, but I think in the end, the folks from the political sphere didn't want to bring attention to how dirty the water was, you know, and that was part of it. But part of it was also that we had engineers, we hired engineers. We should have cast a larger net and so forth. So there were technical reasons why a lot of time had gone by. And Carlo Ratti invited us to do a special project, and he had some ideas. We said, no, we have a better idea. We want to do this project that we never got to do in 2008, but this time we want to do it with biofiltration. We want to do it outside, and we want to make a big deal out of it. And so Carlo said, yeah, go for it. And so we worked with water engineers, we worked with structural engineers. We did the testing. We worked with the city and its health administration. We went through all the processes. Very, very complicated, you know, and of course, to make potable water, you have to pass a lot of tests. And, you know, we had some hiccups along the way, but finally we tested great drinking water, and it's serving Coffee right now.
- [10:59]
Ed Stocker
That's amazing. Amazing story and such a great project. And obviously I know it's had lots of acclaim. I'm interested to know. You know, I remember when I first interviewed you, you talked about your curiosity, your sort of endless curiosity that you have. Do you like that? In a way, you know, you talked about the Venice project. You had to bring together all these very much non design, non architecture entities from the city, from water cleaning, et cetera, et cetera. Do you love that? The fact that you kind of get to go into these different worlds that perhaps have nothing to do with architectural design at all?
- [11:33]
Liz Diller
Yeah, and it often happens because we come to projects with a lot of naivete and so we dream big and then we say, oh, like how do we do this? You know, so now it involves lots of experts and let's get them together. And it's amazing what, you know, when you start to collaborate with people outside of the field, you know, there's a lot of generosity and, you know, if we didn't do that, I think we wouldn't experiment, you know, we wouldn't make a building that moves or we wouldn't make a blur building, you know, which was very subtle, similar to this Canal Cafe that we did.
- [12:08]
Ed Stocker
You know, we've talked about Venice, that incredible project there. As someone who lives in Milan, I want to know, Liz Diller, are we finally going to have Diller's Covidi and Renfro project in the city? There are a couple that, you know, have sort of been in the pipeline. Do you want to talk about it?
- [12:23]
Liz Diller
Well, the Perolino project could be a very nice project. It involves a 1960s building that. It's an office building that was abandoned and in really bad shape and we have on paper renovated it. And it has a swing that goes across the street, a multi lane street. And I think that project, you know, is right now has some political hiccups around it. And so we'll see what happens there. Puerto Romana, we've passed really a lot of hurdles there with the Puerto Romana project.
- [12:58]
Ed Stocker
This is by the Olympic Village.
- [13:00]
Liz Diller
Yes, it's that whole swath of railway that goes east to west. It's like one and a half kilometers long. And it basically bisects Milan, you know, the south from the north. So the project connects the two sides and it, you know, it is a big development project. So there are many buildings that will be built. We're in charge of the park in the middle, the Central park and all the public spaces. So I look forward to that. But also we are lining the adjoining streets with trees, we're making public spaces on car parking decks, and we're operating all over the place. So there's not one. There's an ecozone all around the train tracks, you know, where it's much more free growth, very little maintenance, in the spirit of the High Line, but much more wild, really bringing back some ecologies, you know, birds and insects and things like that. So there's a lot of component parts to this, and I think that it has gone pretty far. But the commission that rules on the nickname, the Beauty Commission, may be changed, and so we're looking forward to continuing that project.
- [14:13]
Andrew Tuck
Liz Diller there in conversation with Monocle's Ed Stocker. Active citizen participation coupled with smart planning is the dream of every city's planning department. And the Slovak capital, Bratislava, is a shining example. Its driving force, the Metropolitan Institute of Bratislava, has delivered real, tangible change since its founding in 2019. And last month it opened a physical space in the city too. Tubar, Bratislava's first dedicated centre for architecture and urbanism. Monocle's Alexei Korolyov has been to visit.
- [14:55]
Petra Marco
We want to have difficult conversations because city growth and development could be a topic which has some conflicts, because there are many different interests and it's about coming together and understanding the different needs of different people and end users and citizens.
- [15:14]
Alexei Korolyov
Petromarco is the director of the Metropolitan Institute of Bratislava. She and her team had been planning Tuba for more than a year.
- [15:21]
Petra Marco
Tu means here and ba BA is the shortcut for Bratislava. So here we shape Bratislava, or here we talk about the future of Bratislava. The idea is that it's like a living room for topics of the city and planning, and also having a flexible space for events. So we're here in the event space, which at its maximum can host up to 100 people. It's very flexible and we've not had this type of space so far, and we've done the participation and engagement in different spaces. But it's much easier when you have one space that everybody knows.
- [15:58]
Alexei Korolyov
Housed in what used to be chemists in the heart of Bratislava, Tuba has a playful, multicoloured interior, the requisite cake and coffee, and all manner of figures and statistics showing how the city is changing.
- [16:09]
Petra Marco
You can see on the windows we have this big data, so when you pass by the space, you can see some interesting numbers about Bratislava. How long is, for example, the trolleybus lanes compared to the tram lines? And on the floor, as you come in to the space, you have stickers which show parking spaces and what you could have instead. So you know how many bicycles.
- [16:37]
Alexei Korolyov
Alongside this new physical presence, the Institute is now hard at work on a new master plan for the city. A key part of that plan is the redevelopment of Bratislava's Windsor Harbour, a working port in the Danube, into public space. Daniel Tomko is the project lead.
- [16:53]
Finn Williams
It is still being very much used every day.
- [16:55]
Liz Diller
There are two ports next to each other.
- [16:58]
Ed Stocker
However, the capacity is much greater than.
- [17:00]
Finn Williams
The real use, so they only use.
- [17:04]
Liz Diller
20 or 30% of the capacity they actually have.
- [17:07]
Alexei Korolyov
And that's the basis for the transformation?
- [17:09]
Liz Diller
That's the basis for the transformation.
- [17:10]
Finn Williams
Basically, they said, well, why don't we modernize one of the two ports, shift.
- [17:15]
Ed Stocker
Everything into one port, and that creates a land for possible development.
- [17:20]
Alexei Korolyov
For guidance and inspiration, the Institute has looked to Hamburg and its Hafen City project. But not only.
- [17:27]
Finn Williams
Malmo has gone through a series of different phases of the redevelopment of its waterfront over the last 25 years. And that really started.
- [17:35]
Alexei Korolyov
Finn Williams is city architect of Malmo. On the evening I visited, he took to the stage at Tuba to share insights from his city's waterfront.
- [17:43]
Finn Williams
And in many ways it did that by rejecting its industrial past and showing a different face to the city, dismantling one of the largest industrial cranes in the world and replacing it with Turning Torso, which at the time was one of the tallest residential buildings in Europe. Since then, I think we've perhaps changed our attitude to our industrial history in Malmo. We've realised that we can be proud of that industrial history too, and that industrial history has a place in the identity and image of the city in the future. So I think you can read in the successive redevelopment of the coastline that more and more of those existing structures have been retained, but also reused, rethought, reimagined and are giving the new layers of of waterfront development in Malmo a much deeper sense of place and connection to Malmo's past.
- [18:32]
Alexei Korolyov
William says the key to any sustainable urban change is involving the public as early as possible. And that's where Tuba comes in for Bratislava.
- [18:40]
Finn Williams
People aren't going to be able to engage in their kind of local strategic plan by wading through hundreds of pages of a PDF. I think what you can see in this space already is there's a kind of really a playful, physical, visual language, but also a kind of generosity in making a space where people can actually physically get together and have conversations. And you can already see how that's becoming a kind of public living room. It's a very unusual space to actually.
- [19:07]
Alexei Korolyov
Have in A city starting early also means opening the space and planning decisions to children and young adults. The final word to Petra Marco.
- [19:17]
Petra Marco
We had a series of workshops with young people from the age of 15 to 30 who now have formed a very active group, around 60 of them, and they have identified topics that they would like to work on in Touba. I really believe that cities and spatial arrangement of cities really impacts on us as a society and how we treat each other, how we can see it. In Bratislava, the revitalization of public spaces spearheaded by our mayor has changed the way that people interact with each other and the way that they use public space. So I think it's very important that more young people become aware of the profession of an architect, placemaker, an urbanist, urban designer. And that's also part of the tuba ambition.
- [20:01]
Alexei Korolyov
For Monocle Radio in Bratislava, I'm Alexei Korolev.
- [20:08]
Andrew Tuck
The growing pains of city building is a perennial challenge, and it's being felt across Canada as that country's population grows. Canada's population has outpaced other G7 countries in recent years, and cities are having to evolve to keep up with the new demands. But what are some of the unique considerations for Canadian cities? Contributing editor Sheena Rossiter explores the developments in one growing city and gets a perspective from a former chief planner from the city of Toronto.
- [20:40]
Sheena Rossiter
A group of developers and city planners are taking note of many things that most city dwellers wouldn't give a second thought to when going about their daily lives. The tree line, the sidewalks, and average street parking. But this group today is hosting a special guest on a tour of Edmonton's central infills.
- [21:02]
Greg Lintern
We've gone more to a what we call a podium tower typology, and once the developers kind of get a hold of something, that's all they want to do.
- [21:15]
Sheena Rossiter
That's Greg Lintern. He knows a thing or two about cities. From 2017 to 2023, he was the chief planner for the city of Toronto, the fourth largest city in North America and Canada's largest. Although he's since retired from the city, he now works with with the Urban Land Institute and works on public policy development. He says there has to be a willingness for the city and developers to work in tandem to diversify spaces and housing typologies. But also city plans have to strike the sweet spot with its citizens in order for a growing city to thrive.
- [21:55]
Greg Lintern
I think the power of cities is actually heterogeneity, not homogeneity. Having that variety of building types, variety of land uses. I like to say as a Planner that mixed use is like buying insurance because when one use is down, another use is up. Some of the best cities in the world don't worry so much about land use patterns but worry a lot about human centered design.
- [22:17]
Sheena Rossiter
And changes in how we live in Canadian cities from the typical single family home in the suburbs is changing the face of the growing cities.
- [22:28]
Greg Lintern
For decades we built neighborhoods, they've been more exclusive. Only certain people can afford to live in some neighborhoods. The price of admission, if you will, is quite high. Loosening up the zoning which Edmonton has done in its neighborhoods has opened up and made more inclusive large, large swaths of the city for more people to enjoy the amenity of neighborhoods keeps the schools open longer where schools sometimes threaten because there aren't as many kids coming into that neighborhood, keeps the local shopping open or maybe creates new shopping. All the aspects of daily life are better supported with a little bit more.
- [23:05]
Sheena Rossiter
Density in these neighborhoods as it is for all cities. The question when implementing city plans at the top always is what is the policy direction? Edmonton was named among the fastest growing metropolitan regions in North America by 2035. That's according to higher caps, a social marketplace for real estate investors. And in a rapidly growing Canadian city like Edmonton, Alberta's capital, the city plan here, well, it's focused around infill and densifying the city's core. An update in the zoning bylaw makes it easier, easier. Now developers can build different types of housing products on lots that used to be designated just for single family homes. Now duplexes, fourplexes, even eight plexes are dotting streets in city central mature neighborhoods and this gave the opportunity for the development industry to respond to the market. Infill is a great solution to stop sprawl, but the first builders on site are usually stuck with the burden of infrastructure upgrades in addition to building the infill. And the infill is really supported by transit and how people get around the city. So they tend to be dotted along those broad nodes and corridors that we find in cities. And like in any city, but especially in one of Canada's fastest growing cities like Edmonton, the story around planning is a place where collaboration truly happens. There still has to be a clear value proposition for people who live in the city to move to these more central areas and that downtown needs to be the focus. Here's Kim Petrin. She is the deputy city manager for urban planning and economy at the city of Edmonton.
- [24:59]
Kim Petrin
City building is a team sport looking at development proposals with how do we figure this out together? How do we get to. Yes, yes, if we can do these things versus no, because. And that culture shift is really helpful for creating an environment where we are business friendly and people want to work with us.
- [25:19]
Sheena Rossiter
And right now big changes are happening here. Housing is going up quickly and construction is spotted all around the city. With a focus on the downtown core, the province of Alberta is investing $184 million in an event park. There is also construction right now happening on warehouse park, another hub which is expected to rejuvenate the downtown. The six acre plot of land will transform into an open social space and park by the end of the year. And with eight different post secondary institutions, a plan for student housing going up around the incoming park is also in effect. But in the meantime, Edmontonians are stuck facing construction nearly at every turn. Here's kimpetran again.
- [26:10]
Kim Petrin
So Edmonton's growing from that city, over a million people and it comes with like we're moving into our teenager years and so it's awkward. And you see that in the landscape. If you look at a block where you've kind of got a bit of a gap too, where you've got a new development, you might have an older project and then you get a new development and ultimately or in the future you want to see that entire block face be redeveloped. And that's the vibrant urban environment that we're trying to create so that you know, you can walk to the coffee shop, go for dinner, move around the city and try new things. But definitely construction is, you know, short term pain for long term gain.
- [26:49]
Sheena Rossiter
I hope getting downtowns going after COVID 19 ravaged cities the world over isn't easy. That small piece of land, as Greg lintern puts it, acts as the front porch for the city. And this small slice of land provides a large tax base for the city's revenue. So getting more people living downtown, not just working and playing is really important. So how's this all shaking up with key partners in the private sector who are building cities?
- [27:22]
Liz Diller
We rezoned in 2021 and we had a ton of opposition from this neighborhood.
- [27:27]
Sheena Rossiter
Katrina Rowe is president of cantiro communities. They rebuilt and rezoned what was once three single family homes that were at the end of their life. As Greg mentioned, the city acted as a great enabler to help make these areas a bit more inclusive. And issues that most people wouldn't think about, like sidewalks, trees and and turning radius for fire trucks are just small problems or challenges that people don't think about when building new homes, says Katrina as she shows off the 11 row houses that now sit in place of what was once three homes. This is an alternative in Alberta's capital city that has been typically known for being a lowly, densely populated city with sprawling suburbs. Now, rezoning has helped developers get creative and not just build tower blocks. This zoning has created more certainty.
- [28:23]
Liz Diller
Nobody wants to invest in something when they're not sure what they're going to be allowed to do. You don't want to spend money if you're not sure your project will even be allowed or approved. So having that certainty, knowing what you can do, knowing what will be allowed is really important if you want investment in your city. But we have to be okay with seeing some change around us while also ensuring that our property values are protected, because that is a huge investment and that is where we spend a huge amount of our time. And your happiness at home is important as well.
- [28:53]
Sheena Rossiter
As for Greg Lintern, these transformations with creative bylaws and an initiative to reignite downtown, he sees that Edmonton is on track in a leadership role for transforming Canada's growing cities.
- [29:07]
Greg Lintern
More cities have to get in the game of focusing on the infrastructure and the bones, the bones of making a good city work. That's around transit, public transit. It's around community infrastructure, public space, making sure that public spaces are safe and secure, they're comfortable and they're enjoyable. So Edmonton offers up a kind of a palette of, I think, a really hopeful place in leading Canadian urbanism.
- [29:33]
Sheena Rossiter
For Monocle Radio in Edmonton, I'm Sheena Rossiter.
- [29:43]
Andrew Tuck
And that's all for this week's episode of the Urbanist. You can follow us for new editions of the show every week. And you can subscribe to Monocle magazine for reports on all things design, architecture and urbanism, too. Just visit monocle.com the Urbanist is produced by Carlos Rebelo and by David Stevens, who also edits the show Boat. I'm Andrew Tuck. Goodbye. Thank you for listening, city lovers.