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The Urbanist
The secrets to urban crowd control, compassionate design and the World Tramdriver Championship
00:31:51
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- [00:12]
A
Hello and welcome to the Urbanist, Monocle's programme all about the built environment. I'm your host, Andrew Tuck.
- [00:18]
B
Coming up, if you have a 6 meter wide footway leading to a 2 meter wide bridge, you know you've got a problem because they're not matching. So it's, for us, it's all about sort of working our way through the person's journey and making sure they're not going to get stuck at any particular point.
- [00:31]
A
As the busy summer event season comes to a close in Europe, we speak with one of the UK's expert crowd controllers to find out how cities manage to deal with the huge influx of people that a concert or sporting fixture can bring. Then we learn about human centric design and neuro architecture from the founder of a studio which works at the intersection of architecture, design, the human sciences and the arts. And we're back at the tram driver championship, which this year has gone international. That's all ahead in the next 30 minutes right here on the Urbanist with me, Andrew Tuck. As the Northern Hemisphere wraps up its summer event season, the question of how a city guides, supports and controls large groups of people has been on the mind of any urbanist attending a concert or sporting event. Brett Little is the UK People Movement Lead at Arup, the global design, engineering and consultancy firm specialising in the built environment. ARUP is behind the crowd strategy of a number of British events, arenas and spaces, including the London Olympics, Wembley Stadium and King's Cross. And I'm pleased to say that I'm now joined in the studio by Brett Little, who's here to shine a light on some of the ways he works to ensure crowds gather and move safely and happily around our cities. Brett, thank you for joining me. Can you first tell me how a huge engineering firm like ARUP engages with you and your team of people movement specialists?
- [02:11]
B
We work sort of within the company on large multidisciplinary projects and sometimes we work directly for an operator or directly for a venue or something. So we can work as part of a bigger team or we can sometimes be a specialist in our own right.
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C
So give me an example of the kinds of things that you've worked on in the past that your skills have been needed on to give us a.
- [02:32]
B
History of the industry, really. It started out in stadium work very much around how you get huge numbers of people, 80,000 people, into a Wembley type of stadium and out again, actually and out again, more importantly, often more critically, and then it sort of transgressed into more sort of like rail stations and Transport. So again, I'm all about large numbers of people in small spaces. But we also now work for museums and venues and other types of places where it's as much about experience as it is about capacity and space. It's all about how that person feels in the environment and that sort of thing. So we can work in a museum, in a stadium, in a university building, or in a station.
- [03:10]
C
Okay, let's take the example of a stadium or a venue. What kind of considerations with you when you went to go and see a new venue? What kinds of things are you saying for them to think about?
- [03:21]
B
So we call it from sofa to seat. So from your home right through to your seat in the venue. And so we're interested in what mode of transportation where people are coming from. So if it's an international event, a national event, a local event, which direction they're coming from, which mode of transport they might use. So we know how many people arrive at each station in the locality or park in the car park or whatever it happens to be. And then we look at their arrival profile and how they get into the venue. And that depends on queuing space, if it's needed for security and that kind of thing, as well as capacities of spaces. And then we look at the reverse on the egress, as we call it, again, on how people are routed from their seat out of the venue itself into the street and then onto the station and then onto the platform. And each part of that system we look at separately and assess the capacity of each so that we can try and keep it flowing in one continuous loop, not have queues at each point along the way.
- [04:15]
C
And tell me, are there specific considerations that crop up if we were just staying in the world of stadia, for example, now, because it strikes me that when you leave a football stadium, for example, you don't want everyone to be mingled the minute they exit their seats, when one team has lost and one team has won, especially if it's a combustible football crowd. Whereas in other instances, you know, I was leaving a Kylie Minogue concert, I don't think anyone was getting too much of a fight over the sequins as they left out. So it was fine for everybody to be muddled together. Everyone was actually in a celebratory moment about what they'd seen. So again, do you have to think about, okay, in this instance, we don't want everybody pushed together. In the first instance, for example, yes.
- [04:54]
B
And there's different types of crowds for different types of events, as you say, celebratory and so on. And in a football context, especially if you've got two rival teams, you want to have a plan that takes people out of different parts of the stadium in different directions and channels them into different stations or different public transport options. And that can all be done through stewards and barriers and so forth, so that you can channel people the way you want them to be and keep them apart for as long as possible. In terms of a concert, it's an interesting point because we work for a lot of operators who have different plans depending on what artist is playing. So, as you say, for a Kylie Minogue concert, you'll have families, young children, everything will have a slightly different feel. But you'll also maybe towards more cars, maybe if they've got young children, if you've got a more sort of boisterous band or whatever. Youngsters, you might therefore have a different need and a different level of security, even a different level of bar provision and things like that. So they know operationally what to expect from past experience, depending on who's playing or what kind of event they're trying to hold.
- [05:56]
C
A tough question, because done wrong, this is highly dangerous, isn't it? If too many people leave at one moment into a narrowing space, for example, how much does that weigh on your mind when you're thinking about these kinds of decisions? And an operator saying, I think it's going to be fine. How much do you have to put your foot down in those instances?
- [06:16]
B
Definitely. And I think it's normally where a large number of people have gone into a small space in an uncontrolled manner. So we've got to think about the maximum number of people in a space, but also what's feeding either end. So we don't want to closed end one end, shall we say, like a railway station door, and it's just a continuous feed in the other end, because you're just going to Constantine the crowd. So for us, it's all about splitting that up. And we can either split it up by sending them different ways or to different transport options. Or if there's only one station, for example, there's different systems we use, such as stop and hold, where we split the crowds up into chunks and you just let a certain proportion go at a certain time and you try and feed the system at the rate it can cope with, but not letting the rest of the crowd just bunch, so you keep it into separate tranches. So, yeah, it's all about not having too many people, because otherwise the crowd behaviour hive mind can Take over. And if people get aggravated, then that's when those sort of accidents occur.
- [07:09]
C
I wanted to ask you, because obviously you're working for an engineering company, but these days companies like yours have behaviorists and anthropologists and all sorts of people in their network. Does that notion of human behavior get plugged into what you're doing as well?
- [07:24]
B
Absolutely. And more increasingly, I think in the past, when we were looking at something like a railway station, it was purely about people per minute per meter going through a gap, and that was it. Whereas now there's a lot more consideration of people with restrictive mobility. So they're wide aisle gates, lifts, things like that, but also just people who don't like using escalators or don't like using certain infrastructure. There's more consideration now about. About giving more freedom of choice and more space. It's not just all about throughput and sort of forcing that maximum capacity through a space.
- [07:54]
C
Tell me about some other examples. I guess airports are another big one, where you don't want people getting caught up in bottlenecks, but it happens all the time. Railway stations, you mentioned. So tell me about transport. Is that another challenge that you get brought in on?
- [08:09]
B
Yeah, transport is a big one and airports is another one in particular because you've got the various parts to that system, similar to a station, I guess, but you've got more stop and hold positions, where you've got passports and security and more reasons to stop. So that you've got to factor each of those parts of the system. But possibly some of the more sort of challenging ones we work for now are museums. We worked for one recently, where very, very old building can't be changed, so you're stuck with what you've got. Each exhibition room is very small and we're trying to get people into those exhibition rooms at the right level of people to meet the revenue targets, but without making it too crowded, that people couldn't see what they were trying to see and could retain a level of comfort. So they went away feeling they've seen the exhibits they've come to see. So, again, it's about balancing each part of that system to make sure you keep people comfortable, not just maximise numbers.
- [08:59]
C
And it also strikes me that what screws it up in the end is like not having enough passport desks open. Or you still need to train people in how to use this infrastructure, don't you? Again, I went through an airport the other day and I was super impressed, actually, about how just two or three people were controlling 20 lines of people to get through. They had all the infrastructure in place, they had the barriers and all the things we normally associate. But three people were managing to quite skillfully divide people up between the lines to make sure that there were no bottlenecks. How much is there a need for the engineers to work with a partner who says, okay, there's a percentage here that we realise you can't fix, that we will have to be hands on in making sure it works. You give me a few examples, but tell me some of the other things that are kind of warning signs to you when you look at a project about. There's potentially going to be some difficulty here in the future if we have large numbers of people in this space, whether coming or going or just milling about. What kinds of things make you concerned when you see an engineer's floor plan or an architect's blueprint?
- [10:00]
B
For us it's all about matching each part of the system. So if a venue is right next to a station, that can cause problems because you've got no queuing space and things around there, or if there's not enough doors literally to get in or the aisles are too narrow inside. So it's all about for us sort of matching each part of that journey to make sure it all feeds in a loop rather than anybody getting stuck at any one particular place. So if you have a 6 meter wide footway leading to a 2 meter wide bridge, you know you've got a problem because they're not matching. So it's. For us it's all about sort of working our way through the person's journey and making sure they're not going to get stuck at any particular point.
- [10:38]
C
Now, whether a station or a concept, when we get caught in these queuing systems where we're snaking back and forth, all fine, but that's fixed structure has to be maneuvered around other things which can be done that are more in the realm of nudges that move us through a space in an interesting way that are less visible.
- [10:58]
B
Yes, I think it's been done in stations often where they have displays showing which carriages are more busy and less busy, announcements even just to move down the platform and things like that. So everyone doesn't just congregate around the stairs and a lot of it is about information and technology. So again, alerts on your phone about services are running late and things like that. So yeah, it's about just informing people and if we can, and the platform's a great example, we don't want them all bunched in the middle. So if we can push them down to the end by saying that carriage A is half empty, it makes our job easier because people are more evenly distributed.
- [11:31]
C
So I imagine going forward, technology, smart city technology, you might be able to tap into some of this. The thing we see when we're driving on our sat nav, you know, there's a nice 18 mile red zone coming up that you're going to move through slowly. I presume that organizers of events, because it's all tracked off your mobile phone normally, isn't it? And the speed at which you're moving, they would be able to do crowd control in the moment as well in some instances, if they had that kind of data.
- [11:58]
B
If they have that kind of data, yes. And it's been done on crowds, for example, if there's a big celebration after a World cup win or something like that, and people pour into a city, it's been done in the city there to show peaks and troughs of where people have gone and how they've moved. So, yeah, that side of things, of collecting that sort of data is becoming more and more prevalent and more and more used.
- [12:16]
C
Brett, finally, maybe you could just tell us, when you're in a crowd, is there any way to behave that makes it easier or when you're in a crowd? Because I often think the mistake is being in the middle. It's like, go on the side. You seem to be able to kind of maneuver your way through it. That would be my adv. But when you're in a crowd, is there a crowd dynamic that's hard to beat, or are there ways of being the little fish that swims on the side of the shoal?
- [12:39]
B
Generally, I think if you're in the middle of the crowd, even though you might be frustrated, the best thing is to just accept the speed we're going at. Because I think if you try and as you say, weave your way forward, you're going to end up either tripping up yourself or somebody else. I think if I'm in a venue and I can see different cues, I might be able to pick the best one, maybe. But I think most of the time you've got to trust the system, I would say.
- [12:59]
C
Good. Well, I'll still follow you in my suitcase. Brett, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. Fascinating work. And I don't know, it's just always incredible on the show when you get to meet people who do something that you haven't quite kind of factored into the making of a project successful. So Congratulations.
- [13:14]
B
Thank you. Thank you. I think we always say that if you can't see what we do, we've done a good job, so you shouldn't know we're there, really.
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A
How do we design spaces in our cities that are compassionate? That question is central to the work of Matter Space Soul, a design studio and laboratory which aims to embed human well being into the heart of how spaces are made. The studio's founder is Natasha Reid and Natasha has recently published a paper which looks at the design philosophy behind compassionate places in order to positively impact human health and social well being. And I'm pleased to say that Natasha joins me now in the studio. Natasha, let's start with the remit of.
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C
The work that you're doing.
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A
How big is the breadth of what you cover?
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D
I suppose it's taking quite a different starting point for how we look at our surroundings, and it's how places can impact us in many different ways, in all the different ways. And it's almost as complex as we are as human beings and as societies. But it's covering how places affect us as individuals, or physical health and mental health, but then also how we relate to one another. So things like how the built environment can actually support social connection, it can help with things like tackling loneliness, how to build communities, and also things like inclusivity. So it's looking at a really broad range of subjects, from health all the way through to how welcome people feel in the space and how different types of people interact with one another. But essentially it's quite simple in that it's just how places impact us as human beings.
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C
And tell me, how did you come to be interested in this and to help start this studio?
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D
So my background is actually in architecture and that's what I trained in and practiced in a conventional sense. And I worked at some really fantastic practices here in London until about 12 years ago. And I was just quite frustrated that there was just a limit to how far you could go with sort of really putting into practice how places affect us. And within the wider industry, that was the thing. I was sort of hitting a bit of a roadblock of where we could push things. And so I left traditional architecture and started to explore these different disciplines, things like neuroscience, environmental psychology, which are completely different areas, but that also look at our surroundings and look at how places are affecting us. But these areas of research and knowledge don't make it into the way that places are being shaped at all, whether that's in architecture, in planning, in development. And so the more I discovered this Work that had been going on and things like environmental psychology has existed since the 60s, but that's just not in either architectural training or education. So I started to develop approaches through my own projects, whether that's workspace or designing hotels or public spaces, to bring in this research. And then now that's developed into a sort of full blown specialism of human centric design. And being able to offer that, to work with other design teams and architects to offer that sort of dedicated focus.
- [16:27]
C
Is it normally that architecture practice would reach out to you and say, look, we have a new project, but we want to make sure it delivers for these health outcomes? Or. Or are you brought in by the developer to kind of sit alongside the architects?
- [16:42]
D
So far it's actually been through developers, which was not what I had expected. And it started just before COVID with co living developers. And they were very much interested in creating places that brought people together and were already interested in well being. And then since the pandemic, more traditional developers have shown huge amounts of interest and have wanted to do that.
- [17:05]
C
And why do developers want to do it? Because they think it's a good calling card for potential tenants or because they're the kind of developer who for some reason or other cares about this topic. Because, let's be honest, many developers are in a complicated game where they have to deliver all sorts of cost engineering to make sure that they're not overrunning. And so to employ someone like you to come in, it must be occasionally. You're saying, let's change this, you need to add this. It's another implication for them on their spreadsheet.
- [17:33]
D
Absolutely. And the developers that have commissioned this so far, I think, are the ones that already are very interested in the experience of the people within their buildings and already understand that there's a value if you create an office that is good for people's mental health, that draws people back into the office, that's going to attract occupiers, they're going to stay for longer. I think they can already correlate that sort of human side of space with outcomes that they're looking for in terms of return on investment.
- [18:03]
C
Now, I know you're involved in a project not too far from here on Oxford street, on the main retail thoroughfare. One of the main retail thoroughfares in London. What are you doing there?
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D
That's a project that's just gone in for planning permission very recently and it's quite a substantial site. It's a whole city block, two blocks down from Oxford Circus. And this site it can be very transformational for Oxford Street. There's retail, there's two big towers full of office, and the scheme is actually going to bring in a whole new creative and cultural hub to Oxford Street. So it's a really interesting mixed use typology that's going to become a new destination. And also I've been working on both how it sits within that bigger urban picture of revitalising Oxford street and then also within the building itself, how it's going to support the different communities, the office users, creative users, and how those different communities come together as well.
- [19:01]
C
But what would be on your checklist when you work on that project like that? What kinds of things are you suggesting, insisting, encouraging a developer to include in the building that would nudge health outcomes, for example.
- [19:14]
D
So one of the main strategies is very much about connection to nature. So particularly with Oxford street being a very kind of busy, heavily trafficked environment, it can be considered quite a stressful urban environment to be in. And by bringing in aspects of nature and something called biophilic design, so that's both bringing in greenery, so green spaces in terms of terraces, but also spaces that evoke qualities of nature. So that might be patterns, materials, shapes and the experiences that you get in nature and bringing that into common spaces, lobbies, spaces that people will work in as well, will start to bring in different benefits in terms of mental health.
- [19:59]
C
Now you've also recently published a new paper called Compassionate Places. It has some important advice there for people thinking about this topic and admitting it's something that people don't always take into consideration when coming up with projects. Why did you feel there was a need for this paper? What were you trying to achieve with this?
- [20:18]
D
First of all, it was sharing some of the work that's been happening over the last few years in terms of examples of applying human centric design and neuro architecture in practice. So being able to show what that looks like and also one example of that being applied into design standards for planning. So the first port of call was really being able to share examples to help make these types of approaches normalize. And then the second part, which is just ongoing, I suppose for me is about sharing this different perspective and explaining the different stages of logic that you go through. First of all saying the built environment affects us, it affects us really profoundly in all these different ways. And actually there's so much opportunity that's being missed to tackle really important societal issues, whether that's mental health or loneliness or social fragmentation, health inequalities, these really difficult Challenges that can be supported by the built environment. And that's something that architecture and design and planning can do.
- [21:24]
C
When we're talking about Oxford street, co working is great, but it's a young demographic. It tends to be people who may not be wealthy, but they can afford to rent a good space. We're also looking in the uk, for example, the need to build a huge number of affordable homes. And both the building industry and architects, they have some concerns around this, the pace at which we're supposedly going to deliver homes here in the UK and in many other countries in Europe as well. They worry that people are being shortchanged. They're being given tiny houses, often with no social connection, no schools, no shops, poor infrastructure, a strip of mud as a garden, certainly no biophilic design going on there. Does the work that you're doing, does it scale up to something like that? Can you begin to kind of feed into planning, to government aims and to the work that these bigger builders do as well?
- [22:17]
D
Absolutely. So one of the case studies that I mentioned in part of the paper was some work with Brent Council, which was new design standards across the whole borough. So it's about 340,000 people for new residential development and creating new standards that demand from the very basic things like access to green space, things like considering how different communities are going to integrate new communities with the old. Some of the more fundamental aspects of urban planning and master planning at scale. And that was a really good example of how public health considerations can be brought into design and planning. And actually, the public health team was very supportive of that, and we've done an evaluation in terms of how that could scale up to national policy or could help inform policy more widely. So for me, with 1.5 million homes due to be. But that focus on quality is so fundamental, it can't just be quantity and we can't just be carrying on, perpetuating the same issues and building that into the future for many generations to come.
- [23:26]
C
We hear lots of talk about smart cities and technology and how they're going to help our futures as well. The kind of work that you're doing, does that feel separate from that debate? Or do you think the two can combine in some way that tech and these softer elements of making the urban environment, in many ways, even if they are driven by knowledge and academia and research, do you think the two can come together, that we create a future where you're able to pull on all of these other resources as well to create healthier outcomes for people?
- [23:55]
D
What's really interesting about the developments of smart cities and data and the potential with technology is combining that with the advances that are happening in neuroscience for measuring people's reactions in a space and other technologies where you have sensors on you, wearables, things on your head to measure your reaction in a space, and that can be done more and more at scale that could feed into these data sets about a place and potentially that could start to inform things like design, policy as well as projects. So I think there's a really good correlation that can be made between advances in how you measure effects on people with what can be done with technology in the future.
- [24:38]
C
Just tell me finally, are you hopeful then? Are you hopeful this is a practice that people are adopting and thinking about more?
- [24:44]
D
I've seen so much more interest even within just the last year. I think the topic of neuro architecture, perhaps it's become a bit of a buzzword, but just the fact that people are starting to recognize it as a field, something that they want to find out more about and then there's more and more people wanting to implement it. This is only the beginning, I think.
- [25:05]
A
Natasha Reid, thank you for joining us. Now, before we go today, we wanted to check in on the European Tram Driver Championship, which for the first time this year has gone international. The newly dubbed World Tram Driver Championship now invites teams from around the globe to compete. And Alexei Korolyov, who covered the 2023 competition for us, sent us this report from the most recent edition, which took place in his home city of Vienna.
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E
Tram driving is thrilling enough in its own right, but imagine turning it into a competition. Avid listeners may remember the excitement of the 2023 European Championships in Romania. That's a fine kick. That is a fine kick. And all the pins are down.
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C
All the pins are down.
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E
This time, though, it was the sport's first ever world edition, staged in front of Vienna's Grand City hall, and the sense of occasion was higher still.
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F
We have an anniversary this year with 160 years of the tramway in Vienna. And therefore we thought we have to make something really special. We said to ourselves, we participated at many tram ems European Championships. Let's make a dram World Championship.
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E
Elias Natmesnik is spokesperson for Wiener Lenien, the city's transport operator. Team Vienna won in 2023, and though he doesn't know it yet, they'll win again.
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F
Here we are very excited to have teams from every continent. So we have participants from South America, from Rio de Janeiro, North America, it's San Diego. From the US we have Hong Kong from the Asian continent and Australia. And from Africa we have a team from Casablanca in Morocco and we have a lot of European participants as well. And altogether we are 25 teams. And every team has two members, one female and one male. And everyone has to drive the whole course so they have to have a teamwork.
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E
Lets meet some of the competitors. This is Jasper from Team Rotterdam.
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G
Many people don't think how important it is to be at Ram Driver and bring other people to work, to school, to the university hospitals.
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E
For you today, is it more about winning or just about taking part?
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B
It's more of taking part and have a lot of fun.
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G
Of course I hope we win, but.
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B
The most important for me is the fun.
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E
Next up, Fadhua from Team Brussels. It's pretty amazing.
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B
We wasn't expecting so much people here, a big crowd.
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E
When you first heard of the idea of tram driver competition, what was your reaction?
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D
Oh, we were like, is it like football?
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B
There is for the tramway?
- [28:07]
D
Yeah. We was a little bit surprised and excited to be there.
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E
This is Khaula from Team Oran in Algeria.
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C
It's our first participation.
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B
Wow.
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E
So how do you feel?
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C
Not really good.
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E
And how long have you been a driver?
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B
13.
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E
So you're very experienced?
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C
Yeah.
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E
So you fancy your chances? You may win tonight.
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
Okay.
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E
And here's Craig from Melbourne.
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B
Normally when we drive our trams down.
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C
Bourke street in Melbourne, we don't have.
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B
The, the people yelling out our names. It's that this has been fantastic. It's a surreal experience and we've had a ball.
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E
There is regrettably no head to head racing either at European or world level. But these contests are still spectacular enough to pull in thousands and not just the locals. Here's Mark cheering for Team Dublin.
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G
Hi, I'm Mark, I'm here with my partner Millie. All my friends, we've travelled to Vienna just for the tram fest. I think last year we were in Frankfurt. We traveled to the trams for that as well. And we just decided to come again this year because we had such fun last year.
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C
Do you love trams then?
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G
Not really. It's just, I don't know why we decided to do it, but I mean we kind of like transport and like nerdy stuff so this like fits. We're not like huge on trams. It's just nice to do something a bit weird.
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E
In the competition, each team took on eight challenges, including the crowd favorite, tram bowling. Using the tram to roll a giant ball into inflatable pins. New this year was tram curling where drivers had to push a trolley to a precise stop. There were also reverse driving, target braking and a stop and go run. In this one, the trick was to spill as little as possible from a water container fixed to the tram's front. Well, it's Team Paris, as you can.
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F
Hear.
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E
Trying not to spill the water. They did. As the day went on, reigning European champions Budapest held the lead for a while. Then Vienna moved ahead. But in true sporting fashion, the outcome wasn't decided until the very last minute. Poland's Team Poznan looked set for victory.
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B
Here's the joint. Here's the second door.
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C
Oh, no.
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E
But one small mistake and it was all over for them. The winners, Vienna and Austria is the first champion. Congratulations. As he celebrated. Here again is Elias Natmesnik of Vina Lenien with some final words.
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F
Yeah. Unbelievable. We wanted to be a good host. We wanted to win as well. It was a tight race at the end. Only centimeters that are the difference between winning and getting second.
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E
Congratulations.
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F
Yeah.
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B
Thank you so much.
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E
For Monocle Radio in Vienna, I am Alexei Korolov.
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A
And that's all for this week's episode of the Urbanist. You can follow us for new editions of the show every week. And you can subscribe to Monocle magazine for reports on all things design, architecture and urbanism too. Just visit Monocle the Urbanist is produced by Carlotta Rebello and by David Stevens, who also edits this show. I'm Angie Tuck. Goodbye and thank you for listening, City lover.