Texas Screwworm Outbreak, Rabies Rules & AI in Veterinary Medicine

Summary

The Veterinary Roundtable

Episode: Texas Screwworm Outbreak, Rabies Rules & AI in Veterinary Medicine
Release Date: July 7, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Ashlyn Duckwall, Dr. Emily King, Courtney Allan

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into three primary topics in the world of veterinary medicine: the recent Texas screwworm outbreak and associated regulatory changes, a real-world example of why rabies vaccination is so crucial (for both pets and humans), and a discussion of artificial intelligence use for heart murmur detection in animals. Listener questions cover career advice for prospective and non-traditional pre-vet students, while the hosts also share engaging case studies and news from their practices. Expect a mix of clinical insights, real-life stories, and the hosts’ trademark humor and candor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Texas Screwworm Outbreak and New Rules

Timestamps: 10:15–13:22

• Outbreak Impact: Texas counties are facing a screwworm outbreak affecting livestock and pets.
• New Inspector Roles: Now, to inspect for screwworms, individuals can become certified “screwworm inspectors”—not just veterinarians, but also vet techs, animal control officers, and others if approved by the Texas Animal Health Commission.
  • Quote [10:49, Dr. King]: “Anyone in Texas, get your feet on that dirt and go stop screwworm. Here we go.”
• USDA Accreditation: Texas veterinarians who are USDA-accredited can perform screwworm inspections without further training.
• Travel & State Rules: Indiana and other states have also implemented screwworm-specific rules, which may surprise pet owners traveling with animals.
  • Quote [13:05, Dr. King]: “I think people are going to be surprised ... trying to fly with their dog.”

2. Rabies and Vaccination Rules – Why They Matter

Timestamps: 13:39–19:21

• Personal Story: Dr. King’s niece was bitten in the face by a family friend’s dog whose rabies vaccination was out of date.
  • Quote [15:14, Dr. King]: “We’re not vaccinating your dog for rabies just for the dog. We’re vaccinating your dog to protect the human who gets bit by your dog so they don’t have to go through this treatment.”
• Rabies Post-Exposure Protocol: The niece underwent the full rabies exposure protocol (multiple injections, including into the face), because the dog's vaccination status was uncertain. The physical and emotional ordeal is described as “insane.”
• Clinic Example: The hosts share that people often decline rabies vaccines for pets, not realizing the legal and safety implications if a bite occurs.
  • Quote [16:04, Courtney]: “It is just wild to me that owners are like, ‘Oh, I don’t know if my pet’s vaccinated,’ or, ‘Oh, I don’t want to vaccinate for it.’ We need to educate—not that your pet’s going to get rabies, but that you have to jump through all these hoops and then the CDC or whoever has to take over and it’s just too much.”
• Rabies and Wildlife: Bats are mentioned as a primary rabies concern; having a bat in a house means pets can be exposed without anyone noticing.
  • Quote [17:58, Dr. King]: “Veterinarians get labeled as over vaccinators... It’s just the law so that the people don’t have to go through this.”

3. AI in Veterinary Medicine: Heart Murmur Detection

Timestamps: 19:31–23:02

• Research Highlight: The hosts discuss a study using AI to calibrate smartphone-based auscultation for heart murmurs in animals.
• Pros & Cons:
  • Adds objectivity: "Heart murmur on exam is very subjective." ([19:52, Dr. Duckwall])
  • Uploading sounds for AI analysis could help in situations where a cardiologist consult is not affordable, but comes with technical challenges and limits.
  • High sensitivity and specificity (in the 90% range).
  • Main use case: Validation or second opinion for general vets.
• Comparison: They draw parallels to radiologists double-checking X-rays submitted for a second look in general practice.
  • Quote [22:40, Dr. King]: “This would be a good example... to just get verification that it is there.”

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Notable Case Studies

a. Sudden Death or Drastic Decline—The Rodenticide Mystery

Timestamps: 23:04–31:54

• Case: 10-year-old Maltese with pain, history of bladder stones/UTIs. Odd ultrasound led to concern for bladder tumor.
• Rapid Decline: Within 24 hours, dog developed massive bruising and anemia; diagnosed at ER with suspected rat poison ingestion though history was negative.
• Resolution: Blood transfusions and vitamin K reversed the symptoms; dog recovered well.
  • Quote [29:15, Dr. King]: “I guess she was actively bleeding in her bladder. Thank God it was only her bladder.”
  • Quote [31:54, Dr. King]: “You couldn’t have diagnosed the dog on that day because the information just wasn’t there.”

b. Kitten Hit By Car—A Lesson in Teamwork

Timestamps: 32:17–36:40

• Case: Abandoned kitten gets run over; brought in with a Salter Type 1 femoral fracture.
• Clinic Team Rallies: Multiple staff members stepped up to attempt cross-pinning the fracture, successfully saving the kitten's limb from amputation.
  • Quote [35:37, Dr. King]: “There were so many employees that wanted to see that this kitten could be fixed.”
  • The kitten is recovering well and has prospective adopters, showing the impact of veterinary teams going above and beyond.

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Listener Questions & Career Advice

1. Pre-vet Pathways and Non-Traditional Applicants

Timestamps: 37:03–40:37

Question 1: Is it “bad” to volunteer instead of work? Does a business degree hurt my chances? Should I mention skills that are not strictly vet-related?

• Hosts’ Advice:
  • Volunteering shows initiative and is equally valuable; actual employment is not required as long as you earn relevant animal/vet experience.
    • Quote [38:32, Courtney]: “Your willingness and determination is actually showing maybe more through volunteering because you’re not getting paid to be there.”
  • A business management degree may actually be a plus—vet clinics need those skills.
  • Animal Science/Biology not mandatory as long as prerequisites are met; having a diversity of backgrounds is appreciated.

Question 2: Returning Pre-vet Mom—Is Age a Barrier?

• Summary: Listener Sarah, in her 30s, asks if it’s “too late” to pursue vet school, and if finishing an online pre-vet degree with remote labs will handicap her.
• Hosts’ Take:
  • Non-traditional and older students are welcomed in vet med; age is not a barrier.
    • Quote [43:44, Courtney]: “Age is just a number.”
  • Life experience, parenting, and balancing education show tenacity, resilience, and wisdom—qualities valued in admissions.
  • Remote or online learning is increasingly common and shouldn’t hurt her chances.
  • Motivation and drive matter more than academic “freshness.”
  • Study groups and mutual support between older and younger students are recommended.
    • Quote [45:46, Dr. King]: “Buddy up with younger people. You’re going to add something of value to them and vice versa.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Dr. King, on Rabies Rules: “Just vaccinate your effing dog. Insane.” [16:03]
• Courtney, on Emotional Impact: “It [the dog bite] would have taken a lot of composure… just not [to be upset].” [18:30]
• Dr. Duckwall, on Case Mystery: “That just shows how history—it was not on my radar.” [29:49]
• Dr. King, on Vet School Applicants: “I think they want to see that you can complete something that is truly challenging and that you stuck with it.” [40:37]
• Courtney, on Nontraditional Students: “They were awesome. They're so chill. They're like, yeah, don’t worry about who likes you, who doesn’t. You’re great.” [44:06]

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Episode Flow & Tone

• Conversational & Humorous: The hosts frequently poke fun at themselves, discuss life events (pregnancy, moving, Wimbledon plans), and riff on the challenges of hot weather, making the episode lively and friendly.
• Supportive & Candid: They openly discuss their own uncertainties and learning opportunities, especially in tricky cases, and provide heartfelt encouragement to listeners aspiring to join the field.
• Educational: The hosts break down technical topics (like the rabies protocol, screwworm inspector details, and fracture repair) for a broad audience, blending practical clinic wisdom with up-to-date research.

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Important Timestamps

• 10:15–13:22 – Texas Screwworm Outbreak & Travel Rules
• 13:39–19:21 – Rabies Vaccine Reality & Stories
• 19:31–23:02 – AI for Heart Murmur Detection
• 23:04–31:54 – Maltese with “Bladder Tumor” (actually rodenticide poisoning)
• 32:17–36:40 – Kitten Fracture Save Story
• 37:03–40:37 – Pre-vet/Nontraditional Pathways Advice
• 43:44–46:25 – Returning Student/Mom Listener Support & Encouragement

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Summary

This episode masterfully balances veterinary clinical updates, real-life practice dilemmas, brave pet stories, and inclusive advice for aspiring vet professionals. The hosts' blend of expertise and personal warmth makes this not only informative for those in the field, but welcoming to anyone interested in veterinary medicine.

For a quick lesson: Prioritize rabies vaccinations (for people’s sake as much as pets), recognize how much case outcomes depend on timing and teamwork, and never doubt your ability to join the profession—no matter your age or background.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

And welcome to another episode of the Veterinary Roundtable, the podcast where we answer your veterinary related questions while having some fun along the way. If you enjoyed today's episode or a previous episode, be sure to leave us a review on your podcast provider of choice. And if you have any feedback to offer to improve the Veterinary Roundtable, let us know. Okay. Does anybody know if the 445 is an actual, I don't know, number on Spotify?

[A]

It was. It was 4:44 last time, by the way.

[B]

Okay, so maybe it is creeping up there. It's 170. It's 173.

[A]

Pretty.

[B]

That's pretty high.

[C]

Oh, never mind. We're going to 500. Okay.

[D]

It's a lot better than where we started.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to.

[C]

We might be before Christmas.

[A]

We're almost 50 away at this point. We may be 50 away.

[B]

I know. That's kind of scary.

[A]

Oh, geez.

[B]

Okay. And then of course, we also need

[A]

to talk about the life.

[B]

There have been over 150 tickets sold.

[C]

It's a lot of people.

[D]

That's exciting.

[C]

We have news that we have a lot of people pitching in for the. The giveaways and the prizes. We won't give away the names just yet, but there's a long list of who's contributing. So in that 5$, you're getting money potentially and gifts and swag and drinks maybe. I mean, you have to buy drinks at some point, but fancy drinks,

[A]

themed cocktails, nonetheless.

[B]

Food.

[A]

And that's probably a lesson.

[C]

We have both of them.

[B]

Exciting.

[C]

We have both of the drinks decided on, so we're gonna have a release of it, I think. I don't know what the plan is for that, but we have the fancy drinks decided on, so. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Let's do another.

[A]

Or you'll just have to buy tickets to find out.

[B]

Let's do another drink Code for the release of the drink names. Courtney, hurry up and have your baby so you can drink some of it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Allie, it's just going to be too late.

[A]

Okay, I'll get on that. He could come at any time right now, so I will get right on.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

So you went to the doctor.

[A]

He is going to.

[B]

You went to the doctor and were

[A]

they like I did? I went to the doctor and he's 6 pounds, 12 ounces already. And he could literally come anytime we're close. Like within the next like two weeks probably.

[B]

That's so exciting. Okay, Allie, are you stuck until maybe

[A]

Courtney will make a surprise appearance to the live show.

[D]

I don't know. Everyone's convinced I'm going to go early, but I feel pretty huge. I can't. I can't remember how I felt with Bennett, honestly. But I got the gestation without beta, so, you know.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. That really stinks.

[C]

It did it.

[D]

It's all right. It's helping my weight.

[C]

Imagine that I stayed smaller.

[D]

Yeah, it's helping us. You can't eat the ice cream. That's true.

[B]

That's a good point. I.

[D]

But after he pops out, pre. Hey, you know, we'll be returning.

[C]

I did get some protein I still have in my freezer, ironically, but protein ice cream. And there's some that actually taste pretty good. So I'll have to write down the brand names. There's some decent ones.

[D]

I've just been doing sugar free whipped cream. Add some protein to it, freeze it. It's not bad. Put some sugar free toppings. It's not bad.

[B]

So for all you pregnant listeners out there, there you go. A little trick.

[C]

Also on our live show, Walter Brown.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Walter run. And Sarah Parsons and Adam Christman.

[B]

And it's going to be pretty exciting, a lot of fun.

[A]

Also, King, just a side note, that video you and Adam made, Jacob watched it like 17,000 times, you guys on the sidewalk, we thought it was the funniest thing in the whole world.

[B]

Funny. So it's like you're trying to match what he's doing, you know, and it is. It's hard like, you know, to like, act like, you know, like Lucy.

[A]

It was so funny though.

[B]

But yeah, no, it was. It was fun. He's such a nice person. He's great for the industry and he'll be great at the live show. He's going to be a great host for the live show. So I'm super excited to have him. Okay. I'm Dr. Emily King.

[A]

Okay. We have social media channels.

[B]

Sorry, I. Yes. I always forget that. What is it about? I don't know.

[A]

But we have Instagram and TikTok. They're both at the Veterinary Roundtable. All of our live show stuff is posted on there, so check it out. And then we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch us rather than listen.

[D]

Boom.

[A]

And it's the Veterinary roundtable on YouTube. So go check it out. Wow. My belly's just hanging out.

[C]

I'm Dr. Ashton Black.

[B]

I'm Dr. Evely.

[A]

And I'm Courtney. Oh,

[C]

I'm Dr. Ashley.

[A]

I'm Courtney Allen.

[D]

I'm Alan McQuarry.

[A]

And you're listening.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. You guys are hilarious.

[A]

Oh, God. All right, we can't do remote. Okay. Anyway.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Next, raise your hand if you're talking.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I think we can all collectively have the pit. Okay. Oh, we need to, like. We need a little, like, talking stick. Oh, wait, we can't pass.

[D]

I'm sure this is everyone's pit. But the heat. Bliss. Yeah, she's been. She's been hot and heavy here. But my peak is we're, I think, officially gonna move our stuff this weekend.

[B]

Awesome.

[D]

And sun, heat.

[A]

But, you know, no where to a new house.

[D]

Yay.

[B]

That's awesome.

[D]

That'll be exciting.

[B]

That's exciting. Good for you guys. That's amazing.

[D]

Yeah, I won't be doing a lot. That's the way to do it.

[A]

You'll go on a lot.

[C]

Do it.

[D]

Well done. It's a great time.

[A]

Okay, I'll go. My pit is also the heat because it's too hot to do anything, let alone being eight months pregnant. It's miserable and. Yeah, it's just dumb. And then my peak is I went and bought curtains for our room today. Blackout curtains for our room.

[D]

I was gonna ask.

[A]

You need those because baby would be sleeping in there and it's just too light. Like with the summer, it stays light really late. And I've been going to bed really early because I'm tired. And. And then in the morning, it gets really bright really early. So now I'm going to be able to sleep in too, or try to sleep in until he's here. So I'm really excited.

[C]

I'm glad you added.

[D]

I was trying not to laugh when she said that.

[A]

I said before, he's here.

[B]

That's right. Yes.

[A]

Sleeping.

[C]

Okay. I have probably two peaks. One is that Wimbledon is on right now, so. Yeah, I love it. Charles and I decided that for our 15th wedding anniversary, which is in four years, we will go to Wimbledon. Yeah. We're just gonna start saving now and say that's our next big celebration. And then other peak is I kept both kids home today. And Charles. Charles is at the work today or tomorrow. The company closed internal offices, so it's been. Yeah, my pit is that I got clinic tomorrow and I'm already packed full and double booked.

[B]

It's called. It's called medicine. It doesn't rest on the holidays. You go work.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Jacob texted me.

[B]

I was gonna say you could go work in an office and then you could have off for the week. God, that'd be horrible. Isn't it sitting at a desk.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

No.

[A]

Yeah. But Jacob texted me the other day, and he's like, you're Friday off, right? And I'm like, no. He's like, oh, why America?

[C]

Or something.

[A]

I don't know. I want it off with that.

[C]

I know. I'm just kidding.

[B]

Just kidding.

[A]

That's not true.

[C]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[D]

We got more trazzle dazzle to hand out.

[A]

Yeah. My God, I was in pharmacy on Tuesday. The amount of trazodone that I filled was, like, ridiculous. It was insane. How much trasma, you guys.

[B]

I. I was in the. I was in the neighborhood this past weekend, and the one of the neighbors, they always let off fireworks every year, you know, and it starts about, like, July 1st. And it literally sounded like a cannon. It was so loud and, like, scary. Like, I thought it was at first, like, something like, not good. And then I was like, oh, it's July 1st. It was crazy. I can't imagine if you're a dog scared of that crap. Yeah, it was crazy loud.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you can't. They don't understand what it is.

[B]

Yeah, they think it's the bad guy coming down, coming to get him. There he comes.

[A]

He's coming.

[B]

Oh, geez.

[D]

That.

[C]

I got work tomorrow. That's stupid.

[B]

Oh, that's your pet. Oh, it's gonna be fun.

[D]

They.

[B]

You'll be fine. My peak is I can finally talk about. Because this podcast will come out after the fact. Holden is asking Evelyn to marry him. It happened today. They went out on a hike and to their favorite place here in Tennessee, and he asked her, and obviously she said yes. She's a second year in veterinary school at Purdue, so I'm super excited. Well, for them, there's gonna be another veterinarian in the family, but for them, because they've been together since high school, and, yeah, their hearts are just so great, and I just. I'm so happy for them.

[A]

Okay. Do you have a pit?

[B]

No pits. Are you kidding me? I'm filled with so much joy. There's no pit.

[A]

Okay. But we have breaking news.

[C]

It's basically just more information or travel rules that have been established due to the screw worm outbreak, which is mostly in Texas and certain Texas counties. And now they're implementing that you have to be certified as. What is it? A screw worm investigator. What did they call it? Let me see. Inspector. Sorry, it's an inspector.

[B]

I am here.

[C]

I was close, but yeah.

[B]

Investigator. Inspector.

[C]

It's granted. You get granted a certificate and to Become an inspector, you must have a relevant background as a veterinarian, veterinary technician, livestock deputy, animal control officer, or other career approved by the Texas Animal Health. So yeah, it doesn't have to be just veterinarians, which is kind of cool because they're trying to lock it down. And then any Texas veterinarians who are USDA accredited are automatically qualified to conduct screwworm inspections without extra training. So anyone in Texas, get your feet on that dirt and go stop screwworm. Here we go. Stay with us.

[A]

We'll be right back.

[B]

Tickets are on sale now for the Veterinary Roundtable live at WVC Nashville 2026, where we're having the ultimate western themed night out for veterinary professionals. Join us on Sunday, August 16 for a night of absolute chaos in the best way possible.

[A]

Hosted by Dr. Adam Christman alongside special guests Sarah Parsons and Walter Brown, this one of a kind live experience is more than just a show. It's a full on celebration of the veterinary profession and the incredible people who make it what it is.

[B]

Expect an unforgettable evening featuring a special

[A]

live Veterinary Roundtable podcast episode, an interactive game show packed with surprises, a veterinary happy hour with themed cocktails, free food and drinks, thousands of dollars in prizes and giveaways, and more.

[D]

Dust off your boots, grab your cowboy hat and get ready for a night of connection, celebration and pure veterinary chaos.

[B]

Tickets are limited and they will sell out. So grab your friends, grab your co workers and grab your tickets now through the link in the show notes. We'll see you at Cannery hall for the Veterinary Roundtable live at WVC Nashville 2026.

[A]

Yes, or we're screwed.

[B]

Or we're go find it. Or we're screwed. That's right. Oh my gosh. Listen though, I think people are going to be surprised to this veterinarian's point about they're going to be a little bit blindsided, right? Like you know, trying to fly with their dog.

[C]

I mean, how would people know about these areas unless you are involved? Like you follow certain things on social media platforms like

[B]

listen, duck wall. Oh, everybody's watching. That's right. Come on. That's where they're getting there for me.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And look, Indiana is one of the states that has established screw room specific rules for livestock or pets. So Indiana, all you Hoosiers, pay attention. There's violations if you don't like.

[C]

Also, my algorithm is bringing up a lot of rabies stories and we keep talking it at work.

[B]

Listen to this story after the story we talked about last week. My sister's child Was at a sleepover. And, you know, she goes to these people's houses all the time. She knows they dance with them or whatever. And they have a dog, and she's met the dog before, but it's a large breed dog, and it's similar to their dog at home, like a great Pyrenees kind of mix kind of thing. And he was with them, sleeping on the floor with all them, and she leaned over to kiss him and the dog bit her in the face. And she knows. She knows this dog. Okay. So then they ended up going into the prefaces with she's okay, and she's good emotionally with it and everything like that. Okay. This is a very strong person. My. My nieces. Okay. Anyway, emotionally. And so she goes to the hospital to get, you know, taken care of.

[A]

They.

[B]

The doctor says, do you know the rabies status on this dog? So they. The owner of the dog is like, um, I need to call the veterinarian. I'm not sure if we're current or not. Okay. And so then they find out that the dog is not current because they couldn't get ahold of the veterinarian or the owners didn't know the rabies status, vaccine status of the dog because it was the weekend, it was a Saturday. So on Monday, they find out that the dog was not current. And because the dog was not current, she had to go through all of the rabies exposure vaccine, immuno immunomodulary therapy. She had to get the injections into her face, into the incision of the face, and then she had to go back and get.

[A]

We were talking about.

[B]

Yes, we were just talking about this, and I was like, what? Oh, just talk about this. And people think that. And it makes me so mad because I say this constantly. And you probably do as well duckwall that. We're not your dog. Your dog is unlikely to get rabies. That is not why we're vaccinating your dog.

[D]

We.

[B]

We're vaccinating your dog to protect the human who gets bit by your dog so that they don't have to go through this treatment. Because. Because the dog wasn't current, they assumed exposure, I'm sure. And then went through the exposure method, you know, treatment. So you know, where you have to go. Day 1, 3, 5, whatever it is. I can't remember. 1, 3, 5, 7. She was so brave. She was like, yeah, it hurt. She's like, I had to get injections here and here and. And then both thighs. And I have to go back on Monday and get I was like, what the. Just vaccinate your effing dog.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

Like on time.

[A]

That's what. We were literally just talking about it yesterday at work because we had one, okay, so we had a cat, a client call in to schedule an appointment for their inactive cat that we hadn't seen in years. And so we scheduled it, like, just to reestablish care, whatever. Well then they called back and they're like, hey, our cat just bit somebody and they're really overdue for rabies. What do we do? And so now they have to go through all that. But then like Duckwell and I saw a 19 year old cat yesterday who is extremely aggressive and fractious in the clinic and she's not up to date on rabies. And it was like the owner declined it last year. And like, at that point I just feel like there should be some kind of protocol set in place, like, especially on a known aggressive animal. We're not taking that if you decline rabies that you're, you can't have. We can't care for your pet because it's putting everybody at risk. And then one of my coworkers was saying, like, we don't want you explain rabies and why it's so important. Not only that it's the law, but why it's important is because, yes, your animal getting rabies is very low on, like, that's very rare to happen if it's a house animal, whatever. But like, it's the fact of the, all the hoops you have to jump through when the animal injures somebody. Like, and it's just putting everybody at risk. And it's just wild to me that owners are just like, oh, I don't know if my pet's vaccinated. Oh, I don't want to vaccinate for it. Like, it's just, we need to educate, like, not that your pet's going to get rabies, but that you have to jump through all these hoops and then the CDC or whoever have to take over and it's just too much.

[B]

And veterinarians get labeled as over vaccinators because they're, you know, they're like, you need to get the rabies you need. Oh, you know, and we're giving a, in some states it's an annual vaccine every year and that's over vaccinating. And it's like, no, that's just the law so that the people don't have to go through this. And so stop thinking that veterinarians are out to get something, gain something. I don't know what. Something out of vaccinating.

[D]

Literally.

[C]

One of the doctors just had a bat in her house. And bats are the highest chance that a person will get rabies. Now how is that connected to the rabies vaccine? Well, if the bat's in your house and you have animals, it could bite your animal, so.

[D]

Or you and you don't know it because they're so teeny tiny.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

That's okay.

[B]

Sorry, I just had to share that.

[A]

Rabies, like. No, it's, you know, it's been so prevalent in conversation recently, it's insane.

[D]

It is wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Your niece all healed and everything now?

[B]

Oh, yeah, she's. And I was like, are you emotionally okay because it's your face. You know what I mean? And I'm like, are you scared or nervous? And she's like, no, I'm okay. You know, she's just so resilient and she's just like, you know, it'll heal, it's fine, you know, or whatever. And I was like, oh my God. Like I would have. It would have taken like a lot of composure. Yeah. You know what I mean? To just not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So are they quarantining the dog? They.

[B]

I don't know. I.

[A]

Did they?

[B]

I think so. Yes. Obviously. Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I. I was not as focused on that part of the story.

[A]

All right, well, yeah, but the.

[B]

Obviously people felt horrible. But the dance.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Anyway, I hope they vaccinate their dog going forward.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Really?

[A]

I hope they learn from that.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

Hope they schedule an appointment.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Anyway.

[C]

News, right? Is that what we're on?

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

Okay, who wants to do it?

[A]

I can. It's a. I don't even know what website this is. May or R xiv dot org. Whatever that is. Anyway, it's Sonus Health. They calibrated heart murmur detection from smartphone. Smartphone based veterinary ostentation.

[C]

Well, it's a research.

[A]

I don't. This article is really confusing.

[C]

I thought it was interesting. I think it does take human error out of listening. Well, okay, so heart murmur on exam is very subjective. Right. So we grade it on how loud it sounds to my ears. King's ears. Like so it could. A grade one could sound like a one to me or mild, if you will. And it could sound like a two, three, moderate to King. It just depends. So I feel like the AI system by it says you have to upload the sounds to then it get analyzed, which I think is the Hard part, technically, I think that's the part where it's a great concept. I don't think it's wrong, because when we hear a heart murmur on a patient.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

The best way you diagnose it and you know how bad it is, and then treatment is, you have to do a cardiologist. Like, that is a lot of money for some people. Otherwise, you're like, oh, there's this heart change on exam. And some people are like, I can't afford to do anything about it. So we're just gonna watch and see if it goes into heart failure. That's kind of. Those are two pretty big extremes with heart murmurs. So I don't think it's a bad idea using AI in that sense, but I just. I don't think it's a tool we should just obviously fully rely on. Like, I think there could be also error in the system of. Did you get the enough of a recording to upload it? Did you. Did it. Read it correctly? Did you.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

I. I'm like, kind of split on it. I think it's interesting how high of a specificity and sensitivity there is, though. It's pretty high.

[B]

90s sensitivity.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think it would be great for validation or if you were worried or if, like, Ally and Courtney were listening or they thought they heard something or, you know. But the thing that slows you down is the uploading, like, you're mentioning. You know, on a side note, one of the researchers, the Laurent person in the article, I think he's on Instagram and he is same person. He has a great. If you are a student and you want to look at X rays and you want someone to describe or explain, and then he draws on the X rays, and it's so. He's so good at it, and so check him out on Instagram, because I follow him, and it's really helpful. You learn quite a bit by watching his pictures. So he just uploads X rays is all he's doing. But then he draws on them and he says, what's wrong with them? And then because he draws on them, I find it much easier to be like, oh, okay, I see what you're talking about. That's a big aorta, or that's a big whatever. And so anyway, I thought that was interesting. It was kind of like a little

[C]

like, oh, I also think it's.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

It's funny you bring that up, because I was thinking this tool could be used in the way that general Practice uses radiologists like submitting X rays. So if there's a way or an X ray that looks wonky, we're not confident in. We want reassurance. That's how we send it out. So that would be. This would be a good example of, like you said, to just get verification that it is there.

[B]

All right, on to cases. Who wants to go first with her case?

[A]

This case is a lot.

[C]

It's weird.

[A]

It's so bad. It's just.

[C]

Mel is.

[D]

What.

[C]

She's. She's younger, right? She's.

[A]

Or no, I can tell you her exact name. Okay, tell me. She is a 10 year old spayed female Maltese.

[C]

Okay, so she's 10. So she came to us, new patient, new client, and she presented for what we suspected was UTI because she had a long standing history of having stones, having a cystotomy to remove said stones, and periodic UTIs throughout her life that responded to treatment. And she was on urinary dissolution diet. So that's kind of how we took the approach. And so. But given her age, we did a urinary bladder ultrasound because we obviously at that point want to rule out other things like bladder mass, for instance. So we go do the ultrasound first. Oh my gosh, I have a gnat in my house. Um, we do the ultrasound first. And the bladder. I have pictures. Looks weird. It looks like it's. It's not full. So. Right. It's smaller. A smaller balloon, if you will, on ultrasound. And there's a lot of soft tissue opacity in the, in the center of it. And I'm like, oh, no, this is not good. Like, this dog has what I thought was a bladder tumor. And because it's a new client, I took the dog and the ultrasound machine in and showed the client. And I was like, this is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm concerned about. However, it could also be benign polyps or benign cystitis. So what we're going to do is collect free catch urine and submit for urinalysis. And also for a BRAF test, which looks for BRAF DNA, which would classify bladder cancer. So what was interesting is that this dog was extremely painful on very minimal palpation of her abdomen. And she was quite taut too. So I was like, wow, this dog. This is not something that's typically normal. I thought, but her bladder looks really wonky, so maybe there's more to it. She's 10. And the other thing I noticed is that there was a little like the smallest amount of bruising. When I was looking at her bladder on her abdomen, but, like, not enough. I was like, she's so painful. And I just palpated it a crap ton. Like, maybe I induced it. So she stayed at the clinic through the day because she would pee, like, droplets for Courtney to collect urine. And it was.

[A]

I had to collect an obscure. Like, a ridiculous amount of urine. And we took her out, I think, like, every 10, 15 minutes to try to get enough urine for the BRAF test.

[C]

And a lot of it was just bloody. Like, very bloody.

[A]

It was straight blood. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But we had, like, a plan in action, and in the history, there was nothing else that would have alluded to anything outside of what we talked about, like what I just said. So we get the urine or we tell mom to continue to get more urine at home because she had been with us most of the day. And I gave gabapentin because of pain. Like, this dog was uncomfortable. And then we decided we weren't gonna just get enough for the urinalysis. The BRAF test was our priority. So I started on amoxicillin as a broad spectrum antibiotic because a urinalysis was not happening with little. The little amount we were getting. So I then come in the. The next day.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or two days later.

[A]

Or it was two days later.

[C]

Two days later, yeah. To ER notes and a phone call from the ER physician because they said she. They were worried she has rodenticide poisoning. And I was like, what? What in the same hell is happening? There was nothing in the history.

[D]

Nothing.

[C]

Nothing like this. And they had called because they wanted our blood work, which I forgot. We had also submitted. Her CBC was normal on our blood work. Her chemect was, like, really boring normal. And the braaf test was pending. So when I got back in that day, they said that they were running because she had gone in early that morning because the owner was super concerned about all of the bruising this dog had. Apparently this bruising got worse.

[A]

The ER told me it looked like the dog got hit by a car. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[C]

On a white dog, mind you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

A little white dog.

[C]

Yeah. So then they. They deducted because her. Her crit had tanked her. I forget the numbers, but her hematocrit had tanked. Her platelets were low. And then they ran a pt. Ptt. They were low and basically said they were suspicious for rodenticide, so they had to do it.

[B]

You mean.

[C]

Sorry, they were high. That's what I meant.

[A]

They were abnormal.

[C]

Yeah, they were high. Sorry. Which means Slow clot, clotting times.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah, they had to do a blood transfusion and. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they started vitamin K and guess what? The dog is great. The BRAP test came back negative. So no bladder cancer. Never got a urinalysis. But she just finished the. The antibiotics. She came back in 3 weeks total or 2 weeks total. Later, CTC was normal. Bladder looked great. PT, PTT returned to normal. The owner has no idea, no idea how this dog got exposed.

[A]

Yeah. So she came in on like a Monday to us, and her hematocrit with us was 39%, like, on Monday. And then Tuesday, the owner came into our clinic to drop off the rest of the BRAF test sample and a urinalysis sample because we couldn't get enough. And she got some. She told me she took her to veg, like the ER clinic and that veg. Her hematocrit was 20.8 within 24 hours. Like, it dropped that much.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I guess she was actively bleeding in her bladder.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, thank God it was only

[A]

her bladder because we didn't. She didn't have any bruising when we saw her. Like, not a single indication of anything. Like, we did poke her bladder, obviously. Like, we didn't do a cysto because of the weird how it looked, but I drew her blood like two or three times because I needed. We. I kept adding things on anyway, but, yeah, it's just. It was crazy.

[D]

Well, I'm glad she's doing well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And the. The bladder had improved on ultrasound. I don't know if you said that right.

[B]

Thank goodness the.

[D]

His.

[C]

Like, I mean, that just shows how history. It was not on my radar.

[B]

Fascinating case.

[D]

I.

[C]

There are definitely times where I'll feel bad if I feel like I missed something. I. I didn't miss it. I didn't. I had no idea this would even be a thing. It was just weird.

[B]

No, I mean, and that's one of the things where, like, you know, the progression of time, like that tincture of time and that disease declaring itself that makes it easy to diagnose it. Do you know what I mean? Like, you were just on the front side of it, so you couldn't see it, you know, and it doesn't mean to your point that you missed something or that you were wrong in the workup. It's just that the disease hasn't. Hadn't progressed enough. That made it obvious enough. So good on the owner for, you know, staying true to, like, something doesn't seem Right. She's still not improving. Because that's really important.

[D]

That is. Wow.

[A]

We were like bladder cancer. Yep. And then rat poisoning.

[D]

Why don't you know they didn't give you that.

[B]

Well, when the bladder.

[C]

I'm so, so grateful I showed the owner. Like, I literally sat there. I don't usually do that, but in this scenario, I was like, I'm about to deliver really bad news to somebody I don't know at all. I don't know this dog.

[D]

And.

[C]

And so I'm going to show her so she can at least see what I'm seeing and trusts it, believes it to an extent. And yeah, it was crazy.

[B]

You know, Duckwall. I just want to say, I want to back up to one thing that you were talking about, which I think is so important because veterinarians are so hard on themselves when they feel like they missed something. And I think what allowed you to know that you didn't miss something or that you had a process in place that allowed you to go, I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this. And therefore, I feel really good about how I worked up the case now. I. It's not that I missed something. Do you know? And I think that so many veterinarians will beat themselves up going, I missed that diagnosis. No, you couldn't have. Like, you couldn't have diagnosed the dog on that day because you didn't have the information you had wasn't pointing you down that direction.

[C]

It's not the owner's fault. She has no idea how this dog got exposed. Like, which is kind of crazy.

[D]

It's like. Yeah.

[C]

Looking back, she said, well, my mom was babysitting and she does take her to, like, the stores that allow them, so tractor supply. And like, my dogs like to smell things out. So potentially in those situations. And so she, the owner doesn't know either, which is kind of scary in a way. But.

[B]

Yeah, talk about the kitten. Allie, do you want to talk about the kitten?

[A]

Do you want to talk? Okay, well, I can start off by saying how the kitten was found.

[D]

Yeah, you can start riding. I don't do a follow up. I don't know if it's a. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So we have a coworker who their family member witnessed a little teeny, tiny baby kitten. We have her listed as 13 weeks old and she's £3. But she was abandoned or thrown from a car or dropped off by a car in a Meijer parking lot because they didn't want her anymore, obviously. And then the said car that dropped off the kitten in the parking lot, I think accidentally ran her over and didn't realize they had hit the kitten while they were leaving. And so this family member, her coworker, saw all this unfold. So of course she goes and gets the kitten and she's convinced that it's just like a broken leg or something. And the kitten didn't look to be in any kind of more like distress. Didn't seem to have any more like internal injuries or anything like that. So then our co worker was asking us, like, okay, what do I do? Like, shelters won't take her. They're all full. Like, do we know of anything that's like low cost that will help them? Because if it's just a broken leg, they don't want to euthanize the kitten if she has a good chance of survival, blah, blah, blah. So then our co worker ended up bringing the kitten to our clinic and she is now just here and we are nursing her back to health.

[D]

So we took X rays.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. So the X rays on the lateral and VD showed a Salter type 1 fracture, which is where the condyles the bottom part of the bone. So the physis is like the growth plate where the as the animal's growing, you know, the bones are, I guess, separate. Can you think of them as separate pieces? Kind of, sort of. Not really. And it's a weak spot in the bone. And so it's a common place in young animals where fractures occur. And so this was a distal salter fracture on the femur of this kitten. And so that condyles at the bottom of the femur just pulled off. And then because of the contraction of the quads, came up onto the top of the femurs, was sitting up on top of the femurs, basically. And so, you know, I think this is such a great example of where veterinarians do try to meet pets where they are, but then also owners try to make a difference. There were so many employees that were wanting to see that this kitten could be fixed. And then it's outside of the people who were at the clinic, their comfort zone. But they went ahead and challenged themselves to doing the procedure which required cross pens. So they cross penned that condyle back onto the femur. And the post rads, they are amazing. The post reduction rads look awesome. And yeah, and that's the assaulter type 1. I was worried when I first saw the lateral that it was fractured in another place, which complicates everything. But because it was assaulter one they have a great chance of recovery if you reduce it in. In a decent amount of time. And so that kitten now would have potentially had an amputation, but now is going to have the potential to have in the home.

[C]

They want somebody at the work want a home.

[B]

So take it in a home.

[D]

There's multiple people interested and. Yeah, yeah, she's doing well this morning. She's in good spirit. She's a really good kitten. She's so sweet. She's just purring. Of course, she is high on sorbium, but she was purring and stuff even before with the broken leg. So she is. She has a good personality. And we'll see how the, the bandaging goes over the next at least four weeks to keep that sucker together. But she's doing well so far.

[B]

Yeah, we're pretty optimistic when it comes to fractures. And cats, like, if you can just get their bones like in the same region, usually we'll have a good callous form and the animal will do really well. So. But, you know, good on Madeline for Dr. Milburn for being willing to attempt it. Good on Dr. Cloud for feeling like she could mentor her through it and be a support system for. And I'm just so proud of them for trying to.

[C]

Lauren did great.

[D]

I'm so proud of her. Yeah, that was. That was cool.

[A]

Yeah. Onto listener inquiries. So, first off, not only can you just text or email us listener inquiries, but you can have some voicemails through the same link. So if you click the link at the top of the show notes, you can either send a text, comment, question, whatever you'd like, or you can record yourself and send it in and we'll play on the podcast.

[D]

All right. Number one.

[A]

Number one.

[D]

Hi. I'm currently on my pre vet journey. I have a bachelor's in business management. I'm 25, so not the age of most applicants. I am just taking my prerequisites required for programs. I've gotten a certification or certification for equine dentals as well, but I know it's controversial. I am also volunteering at a clinic because turnover is very low in my area. But they are making sure I gain experience in all aspects of a clinic. Animal handling, surgery assistance, office, kennel, cleaning. But I'm worried it won't sound as good as actual being employed at one. Thoughts? Do you think having a bachelor's in science or agriculture would make me less qualified than other applicants? Should I try to work my volunteering as an unpaid internship so it sounds better? Mention or don't mention about my dental certification. Tips on how not to be a nervous wreck when speaking to vets would also be appreciated. I love the podcast and listen to it every week and have mentioned it to all my pre vet friends. Much love, Cheyenne.

[A]

A lot of question.

[D]

There was a lot of questions. Let's see.

[C]

So I'm worried it won't sound as good as actually being employed at 1. I don't think it matters if you're an employee or volunteering. You're getting the experience. Like you're.

[A]

Yeah, you're still there.

[D]

Yes, you're getting the hours.

[C]

Yes, you're showing, you're showing face.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's all they care about. And I would say even just, yeah,

[A]

it's still experience, you're still gaining experience. Like even though you're not employee, it doesn't matter.

[C]

Yeah, your willingness and determination is actually showing, maybe more through volunteering because you're not getting paid to be there. Like, you don't have to be there. No one's expecting you to be there. You want to be there through your own will.

[D]

So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

And I think, you know, the business management degree, it doesn't matter if you have the prerequisites. I would suggest that they often like people of different backgrounds and the business management, I mean, I think that's going to be viewed huge from an administrative like, you know, acceptance thing because they need people that know.

[C]

And I remember like, I think that's in like my high school days. I remember calling Purdue and asking them what type of degree I should have to be best qualified if I did not go to Purdue as an undergrad to get into vet school. And they said to me verbatim, this, granted, this was many years ago, but they said your bachelor degree doesn't necessarily matter. It's all about what we've always talked about. Your experience, your grades. Of course they're not, they're going to look more kindly on things that gear more towards our industry. But so business manage management is actually would be very beneficial in our industry. But I legitimately asked them, I was like, okay, if I'm interested in journalism, does it matter if I do that degree and then apply for, you know, vet school and stuff? And that's where they legitimately said they don't look at like the exact type of bachelor's you're end up, you end up getting. Do I think I would have gotten in on first try with a journalism degree? No, I don't. But I do think that the fact that you already have Business education is ginormous because you just don't get as much of that in vet school in general. So you're doing great. It doesn't, it's not animal science. Not like animal stuff in vet school. You don't learn it.

[B]

I agree completely.

[C]

Bachelor undergrad, like yeah.

[B]

So I think they want to see that you can complete something that is true challenging and that you stuck with it. I think that's why they like athletes so much because you start something and you have to commit to something that's very hard and you finish it. And so it's a good test of that's why you're going to be able to survive veterinary school. Because if you did this, you're going to. You're going to be able to survive veterinary school. So I think that just showing that is a big thing. So question number two. Hello BRT ladies. Sorry for the essay, but I really appreciate the time and effort that you put into the podcast. I love watching Y' all on YouTube and it helps me stay motivated when finishing my education. I recently got accepted at Kansas State University to finish my Bachelor's degree online in Animal Science and Industry with my primary path focus on pre Vet med. This program helps me out being a full time stay at home mom and being tied back down to my hometown for some background. I worked as a vet tech assistant for almost two years while attending Texas A and M in Kingsville for the vet program. While attending I became pregnant with my husband's daughter. We had to move from Texas back to western New York to have our family as a support system. So going back to Texas A and M was sadly no longer an option and being able to attend school in person at this moment, along with interning or working at a clinic isn't feasible for me due to the lack of childcare in our area. On top of it, the closest AVMA accredited school is 2 hours and 45 minutes away from us. My new end goal is to achieve my dvm. Since animal care is scarce in my area and new veterinarians are not coming in, it's actually a surprise when one does show up for some time. Since we are permanently tied to our rural area, I want to finish my education and help fill the gap that we desperately need. It may take me five to seven years since I already knocked out two years of college, but the lack of vet care here has kept me up at night since we moved back and I want to help become a part of the solution. Now that our kids are a bit older. I Will admit I'm a bit nervous because I've been out of school for a long while between graduating high school in 2013 and having to step away from Texas A and M in 2022. So a lot of my math and science knowledge has decreased, but I'll still work harder on it and get extra help. My silly question is, while attending vet med school, did you meet students who were in their early mid-30s that changed career choices rather than mid-20s who already knew what they wanted to do and were able to be as successful? I asked because I was 28 when I started attending Texas A and M and while there I felt strange being the oldest student in my courses. I also felt a little stupid because there was a lot of education and knowledge that I didn't know compared to the young adults fresh out of high school. I know I have the drive, the determination, patience and compassion to make this possible, but I am definitely second guessing myself based on the fact on how long I've been out of school. I'm also curious about how y' all may feel about KSU having an online program that has focus on pre vet med. Usually courses that require labs need to be done on campus, but this program gives the flexibility to students who are in my position. The only downfall that I believe I'll have is needing to retake those courses before being accepted into vet med at Cornell. Instead of viewing that as an inconvenience, I'm viewing it as a way to better my knowledge on the subject and take it as a second chance to improve my grade if I wasn't satisfied with it. Any advice, tips and encouragement is also appreciated. Thank you very much for all you do, Sarah.

[A]

Age is just a number.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yep. We've seen so many vets that it's like their second career.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So they are a little bit older.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

In my class, I don't know.

[B]

Motivated.

[C]

I really don't remember if I had second career people, but I definitely had some older classmates that just maybe it was their second career. And I didn't know specifically, but they were awesome. They're so chill.

[D]

They're so cool.

[C]

They're like, yeah, don't worry about who likes you, who doesn't. You're great.

[D]

Like, just like I'm just trying to

[C]

be here fun and get my, like, wow. I envy that personality. That is amazing.

[B]

So I would say it's a, it's a huge draw to be from that rural area in today's world of veterinary medicine.

[C]

You're gonna like that they're Gonna like that you want to be a part of the problem. I think if you say that specifically, that is what Vet Med is about. You want to be, or sorry, a part of the solution. Not part of the problem, part of the solution, a part of figuring it out. That's what we all try to do in some microscopic way. But I think the fact that, that that's your only option, it also goes to show also you're a mom, a

[D]

stay at home mom.

[C]

That's amazing. Like, good for you for still doing your education at the same time. Like I say all the time, I could not do that. I could not be a stay at home mom full time because I would go bananas. So the fact that you're like, I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna let it, like, slow me down in any way, any avenue of my life. That will also show so much tenacity on your application. And you should speak to the challenges you face as a stay at home mom. I think that is ginormous. Like, I think you learn so much in general being a mom, but then being a stay at home mom while doing your education, that's phenomenal.

[A]

It's great.

[D]

She speaks on that. Being passionate and working harder on the math stuff. And like, I think that's good.

[A]

You have the confidence to just go do it.

[B]

Yeah. And I.

[D]

And also, if you think all those younger kids have the knowledge, then buddy up with them, have study groups and stuff.

[B]

Yes. I think it's a win. Win.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, that's why veterinary clinics add veterinarians. Younger veterinarians, they bring in something right to the clinic. They infuse it with energy and knowledge. And you also have wisdom from the older people. And so the same thing applies in the environment of school. In that atmosphere of school, buddy up with younger people. Don't just hang out with the older people. You know, you're going to add something of value to the younger people and vice versa.

[C]

And you already have a positive outlook. If you have to retake a class, like, that's phenomenal. You're already like, oh, it's fine. I'll just get a better grade.

[B]

Like, that's exactly.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think you need any advice. You seem like you know what's going on.

[B]

Yeah, you got it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, you got it.

[C]

Good luck, Sarah. Let us know how it goes.

[A]

That's awesome.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of the Veterinary Roundtable. Remember, send in those questions and leave us a review. If you enjoyed this episode or previous one. We'll see you next week for another episode of the Veterinary Roundtable. Bye.