They Said All the Right Things (and Nothing Changed): The Anxious-Avoidant Trap w/Mackie Overbay

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Virtual Couch
Episode: “They Said All the Right Things (and Nothing Changed): The Anxious-Avoidant Trap” w/ Mackie Overbay
Host: Tony Overbay, LMFT
Guest: Mackie Overbay
Date: March 31, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Tony Overbay welcomes his daughter, Mackie, to explore a deeply relatable relationship dynamic: why partners often say all the “right things” (the “mouth sounds”), yet nothing ever really changes. Using the framework of anxious and avoidant attachment styles, they illustrate why emotionally charged conversations feel satisfying in the moment but fall short of creating true change. The episode is part deep-dive, part personal reflection—blending therapy insights, lived experience, and humor to examine why some relationship cycles seem impossible to break, and what it means to truly heal and grow.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Mouth Sounds” Dilemma

• Definition: “Mouth sounds” refer to when someone says all the right things—expressed with the appropriate tone and expressions—so it seems they’re taking you seriously and change will follow.
• Why It Feels So Good (But Is So Empty):
  • We project our own integrity onto the other person (“If I said those words, I’d mean them and act accordingly, so I’ll assume they will too”). [01:38]
  • For some, “saying the right thing” was the familial/childhood script—everyone says they’ll do better, even if they never mean to follow through.
• Quote:

  “You’re assuming they operate the way that you operate. That is one of the sneakiest forms of projection there is.” — Tony [03:10]

2. Projection on Both Sides

• Both the person desiring change and the person saying the right thing are projecting different realities onto the interaction; both walk away convinced it’s resolved, but nothing concrete takes place. [04:33]
  • The anxious partner assumes commitment to change.
  • The avoidant partner assumes everything’s “good enough” with the conversation alone.

3. Attachment Styles: Why the Anxious and Avoidant Find Each Other

• Tony outlines the origin stories for both attachment styles, using “Jack and Jill” as a fictional example.
  • Anxious Attachment (Jill):
    • Grew up with inconsistency and unpredictability.
    • Projects: “Connection is uncertain and I have to work to secure it.” [17:48]
    • “When somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong. I need to pursue harder, be more, do more to keep people engaged.” — Tony [17:48]
  • Avoidant Attachment (Jack):
    • Grew up emotionally neglected or criticized.
    • Projects: “Connection is dangerous and I have to protect myself through distance.”
    • “Showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection... When conflict arises, disappearing is the safe option.” — Tony [19:37]
• Their respective nervous systems recognize each other as familiar, and attraction is based on this pattern rather than conscious choice.

4. The Cycle of Unchanged Conversations

• The classic anxious-avoidant dance is described:
  • Anxious partner brings up a need or issue; avoidant partner responds with the “right” words.
  • Temporary relief for both—but actions don’t follow, frustration mounts, and the cycle repeats.
  • For the anxious, lack of follow-through feels confusing and invalidating; for the avoidant, emotional engagement feels threatening. [23:26–24:09]
• Quote:

  “I spent that whole relationship basically just waiting for the bare minimum to happen and then hearing the right mouth noises and then never seeing that. So it’s like, literally, I mean, I’m talking everything, like, waiting for trust to be there, waiting to feel seen, feel valued, feel considered.” — Mackie [30:14]

5. Consideration as the Highest Form of Love

• Being considered (thought of in plans, decisions, impacts) is described as the highest expression of love.
• Lack of consideration by the avoidant is experienced as deeply hurtful and perpetuates the trap.
• Quote:

  “Just remembering little things about someone is such a... just like, oh, you cared enough to remember that.” — Mackie [34:00]

• Attempts to raise these concerns often lead to defensive “victim mode” or further distancing by the avoidant, leaving the anxious partner apologizing for their own needs.

6. When Boundaries Are Broken and Trust Is Undermined

• Discussion of situations where trust and boundaries are repeatedly violated.
• The anxious partner gets caught between wanting to give grace and realizing they’re being walked over.
• Quote:

  “Every time I then heard the mouth noises, and then I said, okay, you’re right, I forgive you, I was basically saying... as long as you say the right words, I will stay.” — Mackie [37:29]

7. The Courage to Leave (and the Aftermath)

• Leaving a relationship, especially when it means giving up the role of the one-who-tried, is incredibly challenging.
• The one leaving often knows the other will get to “be the victim” in the narrative that follows—and has to become at peace with that.
• Quote:

  “Being the one to leave sometimes means giving the person the gift of getting to play the victim... but you know your truth, you know how you were treated, you know how many chances you gave.” — Mackie [57:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Change:

  “It actually takes a lot for the anxious to then stay grounded and genuinely curious, but then it also takes courage for the avoidant to then own up to the fact of, man, yeah. This is a pattern of mine. And I don’t think about it again. I like that I don’t consider you.” — Tony [33:15]

• On Timeline for Healing:

  “There’s no correct timeline for feeling. You could be months out of a breakup and then have a day that all of a sudden it just kind of hits you like a truck. That doesn’t mean you took a step back, it just means you’re processing things.” — Mackie [56:08]

• On “Feelings” (Impermanence):

  “No feeling is ever final—good or bad. That as humans, we are constantly feeling different things... so in moments where things are dark or scary, it’s like, hey, no, this feeling is temporary.” — Mackie [49:00]

• The Role of the Therapist

  “The sooner you can accept—oh, you will [be the ‘bad guy’ in their story], then that’s okay.” — Tony [59:59]

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Actionable Takeaways and “Lessons Learned” (from Mackie’s List)

Rapid-fire, practical lessons from Mackie’s breakup and healing:

• Feel It, Don’t Run: Let uncomfortable feelings in rather than constantly distracting yourself. Healing comes from feeling. [41:09–43:38]
• No Feeling Is Final: Emotions change—even intense pain or sadness passes. [48:54]
• Trust Must Be (Re)Earned: If patterns of broken trust persist, you’re under no obligation to blindly trust that person again. [44:59]
• Being Alone > Settling: It is better to be alone than to accept less than you deserve, and leaving can be a brave (not cruel) act. [56:52]
• There Is No Universal Timeline: Healing is not linear, and there’s no prescribed period for moving on—from breakups or any loss. [53:46]
• Choosing Yourself is Not Selfish: Sometimes to heal and grow, you must be your own advocate, even if others paint you as the “villain.” [57:37]
• Begging for Care Isn’t Normal: If you find yourself constantly begging to be cared for, it’s a sign the relationship is unhealthy. [51:44]

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• What Are “Mouth Sounds” and Why Are We Fooled? | [01:38–04:33]
• Anxious vs. Avoidant Attachment: Jack & Jill Origin Stories | [15:05–22:37]
• The Familiarity Trap: Why We’re Drawn to Each Other | [22:08–23:38]
• Breakup Lessons & Consideration in Relationships | [30:05–37:29]
• Trust, Boundaries, and the Aftermath of Leaving | [44:59–57:37]
• Final Reflections and Mackie’s Advice for Healing | [41:01–59:28]

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Episode Tone & Style

• Relatable, Candid, and Informal: Tony and Mackie blend psychological theory with firsthand experiences, using humor and plain language to demystify complex emotional dynamics.
• Supportive and Empowering: The conversation is framed as a way to help listeners make sense of their own relationship “nonsense”—with zero judgment and plenty of compassion.

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Final Words

Whether you’re stuck in a repeating relationship loop, supporting someone else, or freshly navigating single life, this episode offers both a deep validation of your struggles and practical wisdom for breaking free from unhelpful patterns. As Tony sums up:

“You’re training the relationship how it will operate by what you tolerate.” [37:36]

And from Mackie:

“Choosing yourself is actually a really powerful and brave thing.” [59:28]

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Connect:

• Tony Overbay: @virtualcouch (Instagram, TikTok)
• Mackie Overbay: Beauty by Mackie (Instagram, TikTok)

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For questions or deep dives, listeners are encouraged to write in—future Q&A episodes could explore these themes even further.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the virtual couch. Please take a seat. Four pillars. Emotional maturity and your self worth run so deep. You are not broken. You're a human. So check that out. You don't know. What you don't know is what it's all about. Have you ever had somebody look you right in the eyes and I mean really look at you and say exactly the thing that you needed to hear? The tone was right, the facial expression was right. They maybe even reached over, touched your hand or your arm, or might even been so bold as to grab your face in a very safe way. And this is the thing they need you to hear. And then they say something like, no, you're right. I hear you, and I'm going to do better. And in that moment, did you think, okay, that felt amazing. That's a good talk. We're good. We're on the same page. But then I think, this is the real question. How many times did that exact same scene play out before you start to wonder, hold on. Why does this keep happening? Why do I keep having the same conversation? Even when it does feel good, it's much better than it's been in the past. And why does it even keep feeling resolved without anything actually changing? Hey, everybody. Welcome to the virtual couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. And today I have a very special episode for you. And it is not just because my daughter Mackie is on the podcast, but it's because of the content that we go over. We're gonna get into something that I think will resonate with so many of you, because we've been using a phrase around the house for a little while now, and I mentioned it on the podcast before, we're calling them mouth sounds. People make the right mouth sounds, even the right facial expressions. So mouth sounds are. When somebody says all the right things. They use the right words, they have the right tone of voice. They look at you and they look right at your face. And in that moment, it feels amazing. You believe them because it's so much better than them shutting down, blaming you, or getting really angry. Of course you want to believe them. Why wouldn't you? Because this is what is so fascinating about the mouth sounds. If you said those words, you really believe you would mean them. If you told somebody, you know what? This makes so much sense. I get it now. I'm going to do better. You are thinking to yourself, oh, I would. I would actually go try and do better. I would listen to some podcasts. I'd Read a book, I go to therapy, we would start to create an amazing life. Now that I have said this thing. So when somebody says that to you, you're projecting a little bit of your own character, your own integrity onto them. You're assuming that they operate the way that you operate. And that is not a bad thing. It's just a thing that is one of the sneakiest forms of projection there is. Now, notice I didn't say a negative or a bad thing, but it's pretty tricky. And here's what blew my mind in this episode and Mackie and I really get into this, that it works both ways. The person making the mouth sounds, they might be projecting too, because in their world, maybe everybody says they're really going to try harder. Even whether they think it consciously or subconsciously, then things get in the way. People don't necessarily follow through on those things that they say. So what if they're not being intentionally deceptive in their experience? This is just what people say. You say the thing, you maybe make the face, the tension drops, everybody moves on. That's how it works. You meant to follow up on it, but you're not even being honest with yourself about what if I don't even really know what I need to do next because I feel good? I just said the right words. You looked happy with what I said. So what if you have two people that are projecting completely different realities onto the same conversation and both of them walk away thinking they understood what just happened? Great talk, both of you, but what if they didn't understand what actually just happened and they weren't even close? This is actually where the anxious, avoidant attachment dynamic comes in. And Mackie and I walk through what I think is one of the most important frameworks that I've discovered over the last year or so and that I've been working with in my practice. I did a two part podcast episode about the fictional couple Jack and Jill a few months ago. And we go through that in detail again today of how the anxiously attached person, Jill in the scenario and Jack the avoidantly attached, are literally wired by their childhoods to find each other and to find each other familiar and attractive and not in some abstract theoretical way I'm talking about your nervous system recognizes something familiar and tells you, oh, this one, this is the one. This feels like home. And then I'm going to create some narratives, make up some stories about why it's different though, because even if you had an amazing childhood experience, there are still these wounds that are left there. Of not feeling heard or understood or not having your feelings or your emotions validated. So even when your home wasn't particularly emotionally safe, again, even if you weren't aware of what that even looked like or what that felt like, you're gonna find something familiar in your partner. And then with Mackie, let's just say that she's literally checking boxes in real time as I'm reading through the anxious attachment profile. You get to watch her go check, check, check. And then when we get to the avoidant side, then she's saying, oh, I don't resonate with that at all. But, oh, my gosh, I have dated that person. Which is kind of the whole point. Because in a perfect world, you're both gonna heal through the relationship, heal yourself individually through the relationship. What I love about this conversation today is that Mackie also brought a list. She came prepared with everything that she's learned from a recent breakup, being single again in her 20s, what she wishes she'd known, what she's taken forward. And then things like feel it, even when your instinct is to run from it. And we even talk about what that means, not just feel your feelings. Because I think a lot of times people are left to think, I don't want to feel them. How long do I have to feel them? What do I even do when I am feeling them? She talks about how no feeling is ever final. There's no correct timeline for healing, and one that I think is really going to resonate. Sometimes being the one who leaves means you are admitting or acknowledging that you're handing the other person the gift of getting to play the victim and learning how to accept that and to be somewhat okay with that can be a real challenge, especially when you're the one that feels like you've been trying so hard. So whether you're in a relationship right now where you keep having the same conversations and it seems that nothing is changing, or you just got out of one and you're trying to make sense of what will feel a little bit like nonsense or trying to figure out what happened. Or maybe you're a parent watching your kids go through it. And before we jump in, I want to tell you about something that I've been pouring myself into that will go along with a lot of what we talk about today. And I don't talk about it within the episode itself. Go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic and get on the waitlist for the announcement of the re release of my Magnetic Marriage course. Because a lot of what Mackie and I Talk about today, why you found your partner in the first place, why it essentially had to happen the way that it did. I cover all of that in the course. And here's what I would love for you to take away from today. Nobody comes off of the factory floor with the tools they need to communicate effectively, to be emotionally mature, to show up with consistency, to create a magnetic marriage. Because you truly don't know what you don't know. And I don't say that it's just a catchphrase. I say it because it's the reality of every single couple that I've worked with, including my own marriage of over 36 years, the 1500 plus couples that I've worked with in 20 years of being a couples therapist. That you actually do have to go through challenges in a relationship, because we all do. It makes sense that you'll need to go through them before you can even realize you need different tools. And then, then actually comes the hard part. You have to have the courage to pursue help. You have to be open and vulnerable to suggest that you want something to change in your relationship. And then you have to go on this hero's journey of finding help that actually works. And there's a lot of help out there that I don't necessarily think does help. There's even some that can be to your detriment. Then you're gonna have to pay for it. You're actually gonna have to watch the things that you purchase. You're gonna have to listen to things, not just buy it to feel good. Because a lot of times we buy things to feel good about the purchase. And you'll have to practice it. Put whatever it is that you're learning into practice. And that will also come with admitting other things that you don't know that you don't know. And then this is the one that I think so many people are sitting with right now. What if you're the only one willing to put in effort for change? Or what if you're the one who is putting in the lion's share of the effort for change? And I cover all of that in this course. I also cover my four pillars of a connected conversation. I cover the losing strategies in relationships that feel so natural you don't even realize that you're running them. A lot of these things are things that we did bring into the relationship from our childhood, our childhood adaptations that kept us alive. Thanks, inner child. Thanks, champ. But now we need to let the big kids take over and start to heal and start to learn to Be more mature. And I talk about what I call the paradoxical nature of help in general. Because if what felt natural actually worked all the time, then I would imagine we'd all be perfectly happy and our relationships would be amazing all the time, right? But it turns out that not talking about difficult things, kicking the can down the road, retreating into our bunkers, those things don't work. Blaming your partner doesn't work. These things feel like they should help because we do them often. We saw them modeled from our own parents, and we even saw them done to us from our parents or from others. But those are the very things that are keeping you stuck. So go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic you can do it right now. Get on the waitlist. Because this is not just another course that you buy based on the little spark of hope that you feel when you hear somebody like me saying these mouth sounds or when you go read a sales page and feel really good. This is a course that will change you in a way that you can't unchange. And I know that is a bold thing to say, but it really is the cliche. Once you you see it, you can't unsee it. You won't be able to put that relationship genie back in the bottle. And I have watched couples heal and grow time and time again. And I've also watched people have the tools right in front of them, and it's so uncomfortable that they just decide they'll do it later. I've watched all that happen and I've addressed that in this course. So go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic follow me on social media. I'm going to talk a lot more about that. I'm going to have more clips that are leading up to the course. Follow me on Instagram at Virtual Couch, on TikTok at Virtual Couch. Find my substack. Substack.thevirtualcouch.com I want all your questions, your comments, your feedback. Keep sending in your relationship questions. Give me all the details you want. And some of that might make it into a future podcast as well. Okay, my thanks to Mackie for joining me. Let's get right to it.

[B]

I'm gonna come out okay. Otherwise you'll hear it. And then I'll get mad at myself later on account of mouth sounds.

[A]

I know what you don't like. Misophonia.

[B]

Yeah, I'm diseased.

[A]

I just saw some article about that and I didn't read it enough. I don't remember if it said misophonia is a sign of genius or the opposite of that. But it was something like that. But it really was something about misophonia and if you have a problem with chewing and that sort of thing, I'll have to go look it up before I try to.

[B]

Yeah, watch it. You tell me I have problems.

[A]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of the Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and this is my daughter Mackie. Hi, Mackie.

[B]

Hi, Tony.

[A]

Also you are host of the Mind the Mirror and Me. Which needs to make a come up years ago. Didn't you enjoy it though while you did it?

[B]

Yeah, it was fun. We have a few. We've got some.

[A]

Yeah. There's 20 something of them. Yeah. And I can even run this on there. Sure.

[B]

So if you're coming from there. Welcome back to the Mind the Mirror and Me.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I don't remember anything I would say to start it. So we'll just fly past that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think we did. But my life looks very different than when we.

[A]

It really does. I was curious. I've been, I don't want to say begging you to come on, but I think that's kind of fair. Whenever I leave the house, I'm like, hey, if you're not doing anything, if

[B]

you want to come over, probably record.

[A]

And you know today when I walked by to leave for my office? Yeah. I was going to, but then I just thought, you know what? I just will go to my office and get some things done. It's a weekend and I would come in here and I was gonna write and maybe record and then you texted me.

[B]

I volunteered myself. That's a lesson in itself right there, huh? Can't push people. Honestly, permission and you let them do their thing.

[A]

Yeah. Things that I've just been reading about not being so pursue y and just allowing things to unfold more interesting. It's a good thing.

[B]

There's something there.

[A]

There is. But today I thought it would be fun to talk about.

[B]

Fun to put me on the spot a little bit.

[A]

A little bit. So let's just say hypothetically that you went through a breakup a few months ago. Sure. Maybe not hypothetically that happened.

[B]

Maybe it really did happen.

[A]

It really did.

[B]

And that was my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A couple months ago.

[A]

And you had been in a long term relationship. It had been well over a year, nearly two. And this is not to discourage that person at all, but the data that we got from it was pretty fantastic. Amazing.

[B]

Interesting word.

[A]

I know I don't know if I was going to say something. I don't know what I was going to say. Oh, fascinating.

[B]

Very fascinating. Yeah.

[A]

And we'll just let this unfold is maybe a good way to put it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And what was really interesting, we've been using the phrase around the house, and I said it to my podcast listeners. When somebody uses or says the right mouth sounds and they really say the right things that fit in that moment when you're expressing what you really need or what you're frustrated with, and that person says the right things, they might even say it with the right tone of voice, the right facial expressions. And so why would you not think, okay, cool, good talk.

[B]

I believe you and trust that you mean what you say.

[A]

And then things don't necessarily change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then when you get frustrated later, and it could be a week, a month, two months later, something happens, happening again, then you get frustrated about it, and then the person. Oh, my gosh, you're right.

[B]

Doubles down on the mouth sounds.

[A]

Yeah. So I don't know. Where do you go with that? Talk about that?

[B]

I have so many thoughts on that. And I think the more I've talked about this with my friends and people, it's very normal. People are really good at saying the mouth sounds.

[A]

They really are.

[B]

And then not following through the actions. But I think specifically it's hard. I think that'd be hard for anyone in any situation. But I think one thing I realized is I've always been a words of affirmation person. I resonate really deeply with words. Therefore, I believe words when I hear them. And if I use my words, I typically mean what I'm saying, and I know that I'll follow through with that. When somebody tells me something, I typically believe it. And I. Or I want to believe it, or I just. I don't know. That's how I, like, receive love. So I. I believe it, I trust it. And so I fell into a little cycle there of believing even though the actions were never there.

[A]

And I like what you just said because I didn't even think about the concept of projection right now. But I do the similar thing. You were projecting onto somebody that if I'm gonna say this thing, I really mean it. So then if they're gonna say the thing, then I'm assuming they.

[B]

You must mean it too.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And what's funny is you can even take that in the way of the person who is saying it in the moment that I don't know if they're Subconsciously or consciously thinking if their version of projection would be no. Everybody says that they're gonna try harder and they kind of don't because that's what that person's doing.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So they're projecting. You're projecting.

[B]

The parties are projecting.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that wild?

[B]

Yeah. And I think that that's a. It's an interesting concept just in relationships in general that I feel like I've noticed too. Like even stepping back into dating, I think it's hard going into relationships because you do just assume that people work the way that you work. And it's like even a really great person isn't going to work the exact way that you work. And that's something to navigate in any relationship. And that's just always interesting. And you think that people will be affected by things the way you will. You know, like that's just the natural way to think of it. And so it's, it's interesting to meet new people and learn things that way and then try to learn how to show up for somebody and vice versa.

[A]

Maybe this could be kind of a fun muse to work through is. I'm gonna pull up this why the anxious and the avoidant find each other.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And have we talked about this or really gone into the origin story? I don't know because I'm blown away by this.

[B]

We are two anxious pals.

[A]

Yeah, we are. We definitely are. And so I tell the story of Jack and Jill. So I'd love to see where you fit into this even though as you're dad, this might be a little awkward because it has to do with our parents for the most part. Right. And as your parent, you are my parent. I am. So the anxious, which is Jill in this scenario. And it's really funny on one of the men's groups that I do a lot of work with when I was sharing this because I did a two part episode on this anxious and avoidant pattern. Jack and Jill and more guys identified as the avoidant and more women identified as the anxious. But this is wild. Jill's story, learning to chase connection. In this scenario I talked about her childhood was marked by unpredictability. Man. Now it's funny because now I don't want to have. This is just a hypothetical story because in the Jill story it's the mom was the one that was unpredictable. And then to the avoidant, the Jack story, his dad was kind of the real jerk. But again, this is just something to interact with in this one, her mother struggling with untreated Anxiety and depression oscillated between emotional absence and emotional flooding. So when Jill was upset, sometimes her mom didn't notice. Sometimes she noticed, but she didn't respond. And sometimes, most confusingly, Jill's emotions would trigger her mom's collapse. And suddenly Jill would find herself managing her mom's feelings. If Jill came up with big feelings or big emotions, sometimes to her mom, that would be like, oh, man, that's overwhelming. So, hey, just don't worry about it. Like, you need to calm down. And that's an origin story of so many of the anxiously attached. Some of this pattern inconsistency I had on my notes here. When Jill didn't make a soccer team, her mom didn't really notice. When she got a B on a Math test at 10, then her mom was like, man, I never. I didn't teach you well enough. When her first boyfriend broke up with her at 15, her mom said, it's not even a big deal. You'll get over it. And then her dad was physically present but emotionally absent. A kind man who worked long hours and seemed relieved to retreat into his workshop on weekends, away from his wife's unpredictability. He didn't intervene. He didn't model a different way. But here's the stuff that I think when I would read this part. And every. And I'm talking right now, every relationship is anxious and avoidant, as far as I can tell. And you'll see why, because it's the way we heal from them. But so then what? Jill's nervous system learned that connection is unstable and might vanish without warning. And again, as an anxious, I identify with that right? Even set the I think all people end up, for the most part, all is pretty much all that I can tell. Land in this anxious or avoidant camp. When somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong. Holy cow, do I feel that one?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I need to pursue harder, be more, do more to keep people engaged. Check my feelings are either too much or not enough, and I can't tell which. I'm responsible for other people's emotional states. And if I can be attentive enough, loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay. Isn't that wild? Then? By the time Jill left for college, her nervous system was wired for vigilance. She scanned faces looking for signs of withdrawal. She texted friends immediately, worried if they didn't respond, okay, you're out on that one. Then you don't text back.

[B]

I don't text back. But then if people don't text me back, I Panic.

[A]

She volunteered for everything, helped everybody, and made herself indispensable because if she were needed, then people wouldn't leave. Whoa.

[B]

Deep.

[A]

Her core belief, connection is uncertain, and I have to work to secure it. And I felt like that's just the story of my life. Yep.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So now enter Jack. He had this abusive.

[B]

I don't know much about Jack.

[A]

I know the avoidant is fascinating, and we'll talk about this too.

[B]

I so do not resonate with this.

[A]

Jack had this abusive, critical father and an absent, emotionally withdrawn mom. He learned from his childhood that when things got hard, people either attack or disappear. Sometimes both. When he was cut from a team, his dad said, well, you should have practiced more. When Jack was nervous before a debate competition at 14, his dad said, either you're prepared or not. You shouldn't be worrying about it. And when he struggled after he had a family pet pass away, his dad told him, man up, it was just a dog. And mom didn't intervene. She was kind in small, quiet ways, packed his favorite lunch, left him notes, but she never stood up to his dad. So what his nervous system learned. And again, after I've read the anxious to the anxious person in a couple setting, they're like, wow, that really hits. And then I'm not avoidant. So I would read this one going like, and is this at all? And then that person's crying on the couch too. Showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection. Other people's emotions are dangerous and overwhelming. When conflict arises, disappearing is the safe option. That one we will come back to. If I stay quiet and shut down, things will blow over. Being needed feels like being trapped. Feelings are weakness, and weakness gets punished. And connection means somebody will either criticize me or fall apart on me. I know, right? So when we are pursuing someone saying, no, I just want you to see me or understand me, their walls are

[B]

shooting up and they are out of it.

[A]

Yeah. And that's where when I would talk to the avoidant, they would say, oh, absolutely, I feel criticized. And even if I say I'm saying that nice face, the gentle mouth sounds, they're like, right, but you're mad at me.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So interesting. So then he became the kid who was fine with everything. Didn't ask for help, didn't share when things were hard, learned to solve problems alone in his room with the door closed, he realized that his father's criticism hurt less if he didn't react to it. He learned the safest place was inside his own head where nobody could see him. So by the time he left for college. His nervous system was wired for self protection through withdrawal. Emotions, his own or others were like threats. Closeness felt like suffocation, and independence was survival. So his core belief connection was dangerous and I have to protect myself through distance. So there's your origin story.

[B]

I mean, it makes sense. Which is like, when you lay it out like that, I understand the avoidant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't resonate with it, but I can see, like, how that would lead to that. I've definitely met people that do those things and act that way.

[A]

Yeah. So when they withdraw or they say the right mouth sounds, they're kind of saying, okay, is that enough?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then are we okay?

[B]

Yeah. And then hoping to just move past, yeah, okay, we're fine.

[A]

But does it make you then wonder, well, then why on earth did we find each other?

[B]

Absolutely. Because then how is it not a constant?

[A]

This is. This is battle almost. This is so wild. So in this scenario, they meet at this professional conference. They're both in their twenties. The initial attraction felt like finally something different. But what Jill saw in Jack, after a lifetime of her mom's emotional chaos, he felt like calm water. He was quiet, reserved. He didn't dominate the conversation or perform for attention. He seems solid and grounded. Her nervous system says, finally, somebody who won't fall apart, somebody stable, I won't have to take care of. So she sees the avoidant basically as grounded. And that one makes sense. What he sees in her. Jill was attentive and responsive. She replied quickly. She asked thoughtful questions and made plans. She made eye contact. She leaned in. She remembered details. So for him, who spent his entire life feeling either criticized or invisible, all of a sudden this person sees him. So he says, man, somebody thinks I'm interesting and somebody wants to know about me. It makes so much sense. It's kind of crazy. But what neither of them realized, they were both each attracted to the familiar dynamic. That's a cool. I didn't know that was a ringtone thing.

[B]

That's my alarm.

[A]

Okay, it's time to wake up.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. But so what? They neither realized they were attracted to the familiar dynamic. Disguises as opposite. So Jill's anxious attachment made her hyper vigilant to connection, which looked like she was attentive. And then Jack's avoidant attachment made him emotionally reserved, which initially looked like stability and independence. So then my mind was blown because then I started talking about it's just the familiar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So your nervous system finds the familiar

[B]

and then you would just click Initially.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it Would seem good.

[A]

Totally. And that's what's really interesting is so now they get together, and, boy, this actually then fast forwards into maybe some of the stuff you've experienced dating so far, where now that person does seem like, man, they've got their crap together. Wow. I'm having a moment.

[B]

Yeah, I did, too. When you were reading the.

[A]

And so. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. But then you come up with hearing

[B]

the emotions being too much. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, I didn't think about that. So then you go through. You went. You. You had this relationship that was starting off pretty darn good, but then there was an event that occurred that nobody could have seen coming. You had something really big happen at work with somebody. Somebody went through a tragedy, and then you go to this person and you say, man, I heavy day. Yeah. I need somebody to talk to. And then he. Oh, boy. Yeah.

[B]

Go back to, like, he felt, like, dangerous and overwhelming.

[A]

Yep. When conflict arises, disappearing. If he stays quiet or shuts down, things will blow over. Being needed. Felt like being trapped.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

This is crazy.

[B]

And then dipped and dipped.

[A]

And then wanted you to think you were crazy for having emotions and feelings. And meanwhile, I felt so seen because you were saying the right. The right things. The things that I so love. Where you were going through life for the very first time as you and that thing happened and you were emoting.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What's wrong with that?

[B]

I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling feelings. So to me, nothing. But again, I'm an anxious attachment, big feelings person.

[A]

Yeah. All right. What else is coming up for you here, hearing that stuff?

[B]

Well, now I'm just. I have more questions, which. We talked about this. You and I. I asked you questions about this not that long ago, but talking about how you can learn to balance y. Your attachment style, but you typically won't swing to the other side, which makes sense based off of knowing the backing of it. Like that would. You'd have to change a lot of things to swing to that other side. But then I guess my question is, once you get past that, initial things seem like they're clicking, but then the reality sets in of the way that the other person works. How do people even then go about that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you're saying most relationships do tend to be anxious and avoidant, and

[A]

currently I'm going to reserve a tiny bit of. I know that there are things that I don't know that I don't know yet. Because where I'm at is. It does seem a challenge because the anxious which we are. You can learn to. That's why I've been so fascinated by differentiation, because that's about maintaining connection with somebody you care about while learning who you are or finding yourself or being autonomous in the relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that first point of balance, of differentiation is learning to know who I am without needing the other person to validate it or tell me, this is who I am. Now, I would love for that person to validate me, but ultimately I need to know that, oh, I am.

[B]

You don't need that to be valued or to be. To feel seen or what I think

[A]

is a struggle is as an anxious. I can learn to not continue to need that person to tell me I'm okay. I can learn to soothe myself. I can learn to stay more grounded and not get really angry when they don't show up. These are the first three points of balance differentiation. And the fourth one is I'm going to realize growth is going to come from the discomfort. And if I'm being presented with something that there's truth in, then actually I'll take ownership of it and I'll even. And here was the key. And I'll even do something about it to change. Because what the avoidant tends to do is go back to like your breakup, where that person, when you finally would bring it to them and they would go, okay, no, you're right, I need to do better. That's where I started looking at from differentiation. Oh, that is the right mouth sound. But then they feel better and you feel better and then they don't do anything. Exactly. So in differentiation, it's like not only taking ownership of your own stuff, but then making effort for change. And so what I'm noticing is that as an anxious, I can work on myself and then. But I'm still wanting connection so bad. And my understanding. And I have read two whole books on the avoidance, so I'm basically an expert.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Now. But it's funny because I do so much couples work that even when you identify this, the avoidant often just. It seems to. They feel relief when the anxious is no longer just being so clingy. But I don't know that they will ever think of the relationship as much as the anxious does. And it doesn't mean they don't care and it doesn't mean they don't love the person, which is.

[B]

That's so foreign to me. I can't imagine not thinking about it or not. You know, that's bizarre to me.

[A]

Yeah. So I think that's the challenge. It's like the anxious can grow more calm and confident and differentiated and grounded and not need validation, but they still want that connection. And the avoidant may feel. And I'm going to own the fact that this is probably not the reality of all avoidant attached people, but it seems that often what will come up in sessions is the anxious is the one that has been trying to figure out things. They've been reading the books and listening to the podcast, and then they try to present something new to the avoidant. And I go back up to this part where. And then the avoidant takes that as criticism.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so then they used to run away from that. Yeah. So then they know the right things to say to then kind of attack or put the anxious on their heels a bit. And then the anxious gets flustered and upset. And then my joke, which I got to go to jokes is then the anxious. Now the avoidant just has to say, I just kind of think you think you're right and I'm wrong. And then the anxious like, oh, man, I'm gonna go on a hero's journey for the next year and figure out, am I doing that? And I'll come back and say, I have figured it out. And then the avoidant just has to go, no, I think you're still pretty arrogant. And then the anxious like, dog on it, okay, I'll be back. But then. But here comes the projection of that. The. I think the anxious is often thinking, well, I'm sure the avoidant, they're doing it too. They're. They're over there on their hero's journey.

[B]

You only know your way of going about it, and it's easy to assume that everyone else is going to do the same thing.

[A]

Yeah, but. But often what happens? And I'm just saying I'm 100% owning the pattern recognition of this as a couples therapist. That then the avoidant will often say, yeah, but they're telling me I'm not even doing my work and I'm doing work. And then the anxious kind of looks hesitant. Then I'll say, oh, okay, well, tell them. Like, tell them what you're doing. And then sometimes it's, I'm doing my work. I'm thinking about this stuff a lot, you know, and then who's to say that what they're doing is wrong? It's the way they're doing it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then even when you can say, well, what would it look like if you wanted to read the same book together or listen to podcasts together or. And then you'll find that sometimes the avoidant will even go, know what? I'm on it. That sounds. I can do that. And I'm sitting there, and I'm going, okay, cool. And then the anxious, like, okay, that was great. And then everybody leaves. Great session. Come back in a week or two. I'm like, all right, how's the whole book thing going? And then it's like the anxious thing.

[B]

Read the COVID Yeah.

[A]

So I think that's. That's a challenge. So I don't know if that's kind of where you're going with your question.

[B]

It's just kind of a constant trying to balance it.

[A]

Well, the path forward requires both people to recognize the pattern, take responsibility for their own healing, and slowly rewire their nervous systems for secure connection. It's possible, but it requires seeing what's actually happening beneath the surface of this dance that they do.

[B]

Work on both sides.

[A]

It's fascinating to look at what your last brief relationship looked like, because it looked amazing. And then it just checks out that as you started bringing things up that weren't in the opening script.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like the first few pages of the script of the movie.

[B]

Yeah. Going a little bit real going on over there. And then I was like, okay, so are there any.

[A]

Anything that you want to talk about, even from your previous relationship, where when you look back, then it's like, wait, these things weren't that crazy to want in the relationship?

[B]

Oh, almost every single piece of it. And I spent that whole relationship basically just waiting for the bare minimum to happen and then hearing the right mouth noises and then never seeing that. So it's like, literally, I mean, I'm talking everything, like, waiting for trust to be there, waiting to feel seen, feel valued, feel considered. But the consideration thing is the biggest thing. That's one thing I've learned that people will say that consideration is, like, the highest form of love.

[A]

Tell me what that looks like too, because you're right. This gets brought up a lot. And then sometimes I think it's hard for people to define what it would even mean to be considered.

[B]

And I think it would depend, person to person, what they need. But I'm thinking of, like, me in that relationship. There were so many things where it was just like, you made that decision and you did not think about me or how it would affect me or what I would think of. And even if it was your decision, we're in a relationship, so it does then affect me. But you didn't think about anything like that, or you made these plans and didn't consider if I, you know, be involved. Or you'd wait. And I'm thinking even just dumb things of say there's an event that coming up and this person would not let me know about it until the day of and would have known about it for weeks, but then would get mad at me if I couldn't go. And it's like, but you didn't consider me and that I would need to know and that I need to plan that you didn't tell me.

[A]

Well, staying on that one too, because then that person. Because I've had so many of those kind of conversations and even if I'm using my four pillars, I would. Let's say that you guys were doing that in a couple setting. And then you would bring it up. And then I would say, okay, well, going to go to him, we're going to assume good intentions. He didn't think. I'm going to wait till the last minute. So we're going to assume he wasn't trying to hurt you. We're going to. He's going to mention that he forgot or whatever. And then my pillar two, you can't tell him that's ridiculous. Or I don't even believe him. But I would make a pause and say, even if you do think it's ridiculous and you don't believe him, and then pillar three, then let's go into questions before comments. So questions like saying, well, when did you know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And did you think about it? And then that will either expose the immaturity of the person. Either just saying, honestly, I didn't, or that's the time where I think that avoidant could theoretically grow because I want them to have the courage to say, honestly, I don't. Or I think about it in the moment and I don't think about it again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even though that would hurt you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would that be better to know?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Instead of the, well, I don't know. I didn't think.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I just. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, well, what do I do with that?

[A]

Then all of a sudden, pillar four, which is the one that I'm realizing more and more is difficult for the avoidant, is that person goes into a victim mode and goes, man, you're right, I just suck.

[B]

I'm the worst.

[A]

Yeah. Would you ever hear that?

[B]

Every time there was anything.

[A]

Because then what would you do?

[B]

And then I ended up apologizing and comforting when I was the one bringing something up that, like, I needed comfort. Or I needed, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To feel seen. And then it always ended with me like, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean that. And whatever.

[A]

And then he's gonna go, I mean, I'm saying.

[B]

And the next day I'd be like, what just happened?

[A]

Right. And in that moment, it's okay. It's okay. You're like, okay, well. And then I guess.

[B]

Then I feel bad, but I guess we're good. And then. Yeah, that.

[A]

So that's the dance.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And that was this cycle over and over and over.

[A]

So it takes a lot for the anxious to then stay grounded and generally curious, but then it also takes courage for the avoidant to then own up to the fact of man. Yeah. This is a pattern of mine. And I don't think about it again. I like that I don't consider you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they. They're so scared that if they say that, then you'll be like, well, I'm done then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because if you. If they would acknowledge, you're right. I am not considering you. And it isn't just the mouth sound said, because then I don't know if it always has to be the therapist, but then says, okay, well, what do you need to do in order to show her that you do consider her?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And usually the number one answer is, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, that doesn't cut it anymore.

[B]

It doesn't do anything. That doesn't fix it. And I think it's interesting too, that just the consideration thing, though. There's so many little ways to. To make someone feel considered. I just feel like just remembering little things about someone is such a. Just like, oh, like you cared enough to remember that. And it's like the amount of times I had to repeat myself or had to say things again, how at this point, how do you not know that thing? And it just was. Again, it's like, I would remember that about you. Like, why would you know? You know what I mean? Like, just those little things. But to just show you care and you just think about someone even a little bit, and that just lacked the

[A]

whole relationship talk about. And I don't know if we can stay in generalities here, but let's say that this person reaches out to somebody that doesn't really have a deserved place in the relationship. They've got connection with somebody outside of the relationship that it's like, it isn't very productive. And so you've said, hey, tell me about that. Trying to be genuinely curious. And then what. What Would their answer typically be of why they needed to have conversations with the person that didn't really deserve a place in the relationship?

[B]

I feel like we can go. We can. We can make that a little bit more clear. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Talk about it. But I think this is pretty significant.

[B]

It was. The person I was dating had a relationship with someone that they should not

[A]

have had a relationship with, in your opinion. And I would acknowledge, and everyone spoken

[B]

to agrees as well, that it was kind of an inappropriate relationship to have. And then if I would bring it up with curiosity, just tell me about that.

[A]

Tell me, like, I really want to understand.

[B]

What is the need there? What are the intentions there? Anything like that? It would get spun to. I'm crazy for thinking that that would be anything different. And I'm in the wrong for trying to make it anything different than what it is. And that even though the topics of conversation were very inappropriate, that I must be reading it wrong. Even though, literally, even though I'd seen the. I'd seen it word for word what was being said, and it was very inappropriate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I was made to be like, how dare you think that? Basically.

[A]

So then they would finally. This person would finally. Then say, okay, fine, I won't talk to that person again. But at that point.

[B]

But then they just. Did they just hit it.

[A]

Yeah, they hit it. And then what did it feel like? Even when they said, okay, fine, it wasn't a genuine man, I'm going to really look interesting.

[B]

It was a straight up. I do not understand where you're coming from or why you would possibly think that, but I guess I have to do this.

[A]

So what would you do moving forward? Because in the moment, should that be a bigger.

[B]

I think so. I know we're being very vague with that, but it's basically. If trust and a boundary are both broken and somebody has proved to you over and over and over again that they cannot hold or respect your boundaries or have given you any reason to trust them, I think you have every right to walk away.

[A]

Yeah, it's hard.

[B]

It's very hard. But it's like at this point, if I were in that situation again, I would not give more chances to that because you've already shown me exactly who you are. And that's one thing I'm trying to learn, is that when somebody shows you who they are, you actually. It's almost on you to believe that because they've given you the warning, they're showing you exactly who they are. And I'm learning to toe the line of seeing the best in people and trying to give grace and give second chances, but also just seeing it for what it is. That I think is a really difficult thing to balance and to try to not lose yourself. And again, being kind, being generous, trying to give grace, but then also just allowing yourself to be walked all over and then showing someone that they can walk all over. Because I think that's another thing in this relationship that I learned is that I. Every time I then heard the mouth noises, and then I said, okay, you're right, I forgive you. I was basically saying, and if you just say the right noises, I will forgive you every time. So you can do whatever you want, but as long as you say the right words, I will stay. And I basically handed that to this person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then so it's like, who was. I didn't think that anything would change.

[A]

That's deep and mature. And also it stinks as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're training the relationship how it will operate by what you tolerate. I remember a friend of mine who said, I just can't keep doing this. And his therapist said, oh, you can.

[B]

You have been and you are, and you're going to. And that's the thing that I think is hard, where it's like, no, it actually comes down to you making the hard choice and leaving. And that's another thing that we could go into so many things about, because in this relationship that we are talking about, I did leave. That was after a long time, and I should have left way, way before I did, but I eventually somehow got the courage to leave. And it's crazy because it's like, oh, that was like, I had the power to do that the whole time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's an interesting thing to then sit back and be like, wow, I could have done that.

[A]

Then the boundary stuff. I'll move it into the hypothetical. So let's say that hypothetically, there's a couple, and the guy is communicating to somebody that he works with, and they're being super flirty, and this person is quite a bit older. It can seem to get out of hand. And then the girlfriend finds the text. So then that guy is saying, you're wrong and you're crazy. You don't understand. And then finally it's the, you're wrong and you're crazy. Didn't get the girlfriend to stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what I think is really interesting. Because if the girlfriend would have bit on any of those.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it. He just still keeps doing it anyway with impunity.

[B]

Right. That relationship would have progressed.

[A]

Yeah. And so then. But then after the girlfriend stayed grounded and present, then finally he's like, okay, fine, I won't do it anymore. But it's still. It was after he tried to say, you're wrong and you're crazy. And then, fine, I won't do it. So from my chair, it's interesting because if the girlfriend bites at any of those earlier, it trains the relationship even more. But what it also trained the relationship with was stick with it long enough and he'll find the right thing to say. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's almost like when you take a little kid to the store and they want the toy, and then you're like, no, you can't have it. And then they try, just this one time, the parent says, cycle through enough. I'll save up for it. I'll pay for it myself. Then they lose their mind and get angry about it. And finally the parents like, okay, just this one time. But all the.

[B]

I just had to cycle through.

[A]

Yeah. And I found the ones.

[B]

And then I found it.

[A]

That's what I think is really interesting.

[B]

And then it's like, that's basically carried through to a relationship, a grown relationship.

[A]

And then would you ever hear the. Well, just tell me what I need to do.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's another one that I think is not a healthy thing because basically that person saying, no, just tell me what you need me to do to make you feel better, even though it's not

[B]

me doing it because I care or want you to feel seen or heard or I want this relationship to be better. Just how do I get out of this discomfort in this moment?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it can even sound. I'll see couples do that. And they think that that's a healthy conversation of, just tell me what you need me to do.

[B]

There's usually some frustration behind, oh, yeah, tell me what to do.

[A]

No, I like that you said that. Because there is a version.

[B]

There's a genuine way to do that.

[A]

There is.

[B]

How can I help you? How can I show up to you?

[A]

Because I honestly am not sure how. But then it's funny because if the person genuinely. They would have to be able to acknowledge that that behavior they're doing isn't helpful for the relationship. But they would have to also admit the fact that they're going to take a look introspectively of why they do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because then now maybe it makes more sense of what would you need right now? I need to know what you're doing. To work? Are you going to therapy or what books are you reading, what podcast you're listening to? Are you gonna find some examples?

[B]

No, I. I mean, I have a list of lots of examples, I could say, but I feel like since we've kind. We've briefly touched on this relationship I was in, but I did go through and did a. Here's everything I've learned from it. So we can maybe just rapid fire through this.

[A]

And I would really like to end

[B]

the day, but I basically framed this as everything I've learned being single again in my late 20s. 20s.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I'm practically 40 years old at this point. We can just rapid fire. We could probably talk about each one of these for an hour each. So we're just gonna rapid fire. Okay. My first one. Feel it. When the uncomfortable feelings arise, your natural instinct will be to distract, hide, or run. Do not. You have to feel it. The actual healing is going to come from feeling those feelings.

[A]

And I know people don't really get this one because then it's, well, if I'm sitting with it and feeling it, then what do I do? And do you have any thoughts on that?

[B]

I think you. You continue to do little things, but you allow the thoughts to still be there and you don't try to completely distract. So for me, it'd be like, I went on a lot of walks, you know, where it's like, I'm still thinking, I'm allowing the feelings to be there. I'm not fully distracting. Because there's definitely a way to do that where then you're watching shows and you're playing games and you're doing things that are great and they're beneficial in those moments, and they are the little things. But you also need to finish feel things too. So it's like, I think you're walking, you're meditating, you're sitting in a sauna.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're, like, doing these things that force you or you're talking about it even, but you're doing these things that you actually have to feel the uncomfortable feelings. And that can be anything from betrayal deep as that, or just bummed that a relationship didn't work out, or sad or being so mad at that person. It's letting those feelings just pass through. And you've talked a lot, too, about finding where they are in your body and noticing the feelings and. And allowing them to be there and not trying to just shove them down.

[A]

That's the key. I love that you're saying that. It makes sense when somebody says I don't think that's gonna work. Or I don't even know what to do. It's because we don't do that. And it isn't. And you nailed it. Where to get rid of the emotion or feeling is to then either turn to unhealthy coping mechanism.

[B]

There's a balance there that you can't go too far to just numbing and distracting. Because this is another side note that has been very helpful for me in my whole life. But I think it's probably a thing you've told me, but that you cannot selectively numb feelings.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so if you're numbing the bad, you are numbing the good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's no. You can't just pick. I don't feel like feeling. That you're now dropping everything down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To a lower level.

[A]

And sometimes people will accept that fact of. Because if I'm gonna just watch shows instead of wanting to run into traffic, I'll go with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That one's okay. But then at some point, then let's try to break down what are all the feelings? Because it's not usually just one. Because I think somebody. Right. You can be a little bit relieved that you figured this out, but also sad and angry and frustrated and hopeless and fearful.

[B]

Yeah. And then you can even throw in a little bit of. There's maybe some excitement there for potential of your future. You know what I mean?

[A]

I like that you said that.

[B]

It can be such a complicated mix of feelings, especially if we're talking specifically about breakups. That's one of the most complex times to feel. And there's just so much there.

[A]

Where we saw your maturity even more is that you were. You did seem to be doing a lot better as you process things, but you were also feeling all the other emotions. Because I thought about. And we didn't talk about this, but even when you just said, and there can even be some excitement is that I know that if you're telling that to somebody, like a friend, then they might think, cool, then you're good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, so sometimes I think people don't even want to express that. I mean, I'm a little bit relieved because then the other person's like.

[B]

Then like, hey, I don't have to check in anymore. And it's like, no, you can feel okay in that moment and then still have many days of. It sucks.

[A]

Okay. On this note, before you. I have to say I don't remember. I sent in our family group chat one day. I just sent this Quote that I heard, the answers you seek are in the silence that you are avoiding. Sometimes the most powerful thoughts are the fleeting ones that you may never hear if you're constantly being busy. That one so deep. I know. I love that you're moms that I feel personally intact.

[B]

But it is. It's that silence. And it can be so scary to be in that silence. But that again, is where I think feeling happens. And then that's what leads to actually healing and working through things and processing emotions. That's how we're built to process our emotions. But we're in such a time of distract and shove down and don't feel it. So it's tricky.

[A]

Okay, what else you got?

[B]

That was a good one. Okay, then I have which this I've actually changed my mind on a little bit. But initially I said trust is earned, not given blindly. And I don't know if I still would stand by that. Trust has to be earned. But I think that if somebody proves to you that they are not trustworthy, you no longer owe them. Your blind trust is where it would shift that if somebody repeatedly is untrustworthy, they have no right to then turn around and get mad at you for not trusting them. I guess is my. Is my shift on that. But I do think you should give people chances and you should be open to trusting people, even when it's new. But if they've proved to you, yeah, you cannot trust them. Because I, in my specific situation, it's like, then I would be something, this person would do something untrustworthy, and then I would lose some trust, and then I would bring up that, hey, I maybe don't feel like I super trust you. And then I would somehow get yelled at for not trusting the untrustworthy person.

[A]

I have such a hot take on this, and I got to see if I can find this one quote. It's from a podcast that I listened to called Invisibilia. They had this author on and he had a book about trust. He said that you don't really know a person. And what that means is that if somebody betrays you, then it's not such a shock. It doesn't surprise them that the person does a thing they didn't think that that person was going to do. When somebody betrays our trust, what happens is we have an idea of who they are and they behave in a way that runs against the idea. We say to them, I thought that you were different. I thought that you weren't like that. How could you do that to me? When I had this idea of you. And this is a controversial take, but he says it's a tyrannical way to behave. I have this idea of you. You have to conform to it or our friendship is over. So basically he's saying we're stuck in a binary. We either totally trust somebody or they betray us and then we're done with them. But this other way of thinking, and he calls it mistrust with the capital M, gives you a third option and it's hard to get your head around. It's basically saying trust people less and it's a more liberating world, but have more respect for the fact that you can't know them and that their behavior might sometimes betray or let you down. But where I've landed on this one is I'm owning the fact that in a relationship we don't know what we don't know about the other person. We are projecting how we think they'll show up in a relationship. But there are some things that, why I don't want to call them universal truths, but that are pretty crummy to do. And so then when those things do happen over time, they are going to erode trust. And so when I get a couple in here, we'll say the guy has been the one who betrayed the wife. It's almost inevitable. Where he'll say, at some point she just needs to trust me. And I say, oh, no, no, no. Right now we have to accept the fact she may never trust you again. Because with that, acceptance means now everything's on the table as far as ways to rebuild trust. So I'm with you on this. I think we naturally are going to trust our partner.

[B]

If you're saying, though, in a very black and white way that it has to be all or nothing. And it's like. And I think that that's just not how trust actually works. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

[A]

Yeah, it's going to evolve. But then, but then I would imagine there are some certain things though, that there has to be an acceptance boundary

[B]

set though, of like, okay, if this thing happens, like that is going to the trust no matter what.

[A]

But short of that, I do understand the longer that you're with somebody over time, they're not being the person you thought they would be. Which as actually makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. And that is interesting to view it that way. But then, yeah, again, I think there are certain things where it's like, okay, but you've now lied to me a hundred times.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So why would I trust anything that you say? You know what I mean? So it's like, there is that line for sure.

[A]

Well, and when. When a person, let's say, who's been the betrayer, embraces that, then I've seen real growth occur. Because then they are accepting the fact that I'm. I can earn this back by being more honest and open. Because usually the person's afraid to be honest because they assume that that person will take it a certain way. So back to that managing emotion. So I didn't want to tell her because I didn't want her to get mad at me. Well, tell her and allow her to have her own emotions or feelings. And it might be she is mad, but it might not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Rapid fire.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I didn't rapid fire that one very well.

[B]

I threw in my. This is kind of what we already talked about. But no feeling is ever final. One of my favorite quotes.

[A]

Oh, talk about that.

[B]

As someone who has dealt with a lot of anxiety in her life, that has been a really big thing for me, that no feeling is ever final, good or bad, but that as humans, like, we are constantly just feeling different things. And you'll notice that every feeling you've ever had has come and gone in one way or another. And so it's like, I think that's a really big thing to remember in moments where things are bad or dark or scary, that it's like, hey, no, this feeling is temporary. Don't know how long it'll last, but it's going to go away at some point and it might come back. Like, you kind of have to have that acceptance that it could come back again, but it's not going to stay here at a hundred percent forever. And to just lean into that. And it goes both ways. There's a level of that, too, with the positive feelings and being happy.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Being content, that. That will only last for so long. And then that's another, like, so soak it up while it's. You know what I mean? Like, there's so many ways you can spin that, but I just, I think that's really deep. And I think it's. It's important. And then I think it goes with. You always tell me to just bring my emotions with me or, like, my anxiety. You'll tell me to bring it with me. And I think that that's a piece of it where it's like, hey, you don't need to let these feelings stop you from living your life and doing the things that you need to do or continuing to heal or continuing to grow. But just know that they might be there when you don't want them to be there. And that's okay. You can still continue on.

[A]

Have I sold you on the concept of impermanence yet? Do you know what that means?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't know. Okay, I think you're gonna like this one. This is from a recent podcast and I've been obsessed with it. Impermanence is the recognition that everything, literally everything, is constantly changing. Nothing's fixed, nothing's permanent. Not our bodies, not our thoughts, not our emotions, not our relationships, not our beliefs, not our understanding of truth. It comes from the Buddhist world. And for some people it sounds terrifying. Some people think it sounds like, kind of nihilistic.

[B]

I was gonna say, isn't this nihilistic?

[A]

Right. Because if nothing's permanent, what do we count on? But the paradox is when you accept impermanence, then it becomes healing because so much suffering is from trying to make things permanent. That can't be. So we cling to our beliefs. We cling to that. I'm gonna feel this way forever. We hold on to versions of ourselves

[B]

and no one else. We're all or nothing people.

[A]

Exactly. It's the default. So we stay in these rigid positions. And we're afraid that if we change our mind. And that means that we did something wrong and being wrong.

[B]

And it's permanent.

[A]

Exactly. So impermanence teaches us that the problem isn't change because change is inevitable. The problem is our resistance to it. Are desperate. Clinging to certainty in an uncertain world or the need to be right instead of curious. When you embrace impermanence, then I have noticed that even if I'm having a difficult conversation with somebody, I'm aware that it's funny. My brain goes to this too shall pass. And so then it allows you to not make it as big of a. This is. And this is it.

[B]

This conversation doesn't have to change everything

[A]

because you won't remember a lot of it by later that night or even the next day. And so it allows you to stay more in the conversation out of your own head and then more genuinely curious about what's going on. So that's a good one, huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will sell you on impermanence.

[B]

I like that a lot. Okay. You shouldn't be going to sleep sad every night or crying. In a healthy relationship every night, moving on, begging for someone to care. Not normal in a healthy relationship, that one.

[A]

Mackie. Yeah. Put note to self. We'll do that. One in a whole other episode sometimes.

[B]

Because there should never be a time that you literally have to beg someone to just care. Yeah, that's crazy.

[A]

It is. And until you know yourself well enough, which can also sound cliched because then I want to be so curious as to why the person I'm in the relationship doesn't seem to care about this thing. Like I want I. Again, genuinely curious. Co regulation. That's another one I'll put a pin in because that is the mouth sounds. Yeah, but I don't know if we talked about this. I'm getting so nerdy into it. But if you think of baby crying, they don't know how to calm themselves. Mom holds a baby and says essentially, hey, let me let you borrow my nervous system. And we can co regulate because when you have that version of it that then if you're going to the person going about why don't you care? And then they're all of a sudden they're like, you know, they're doing that whole thing that then once I'm, you know what I deserve to be cared for about and I care about myself. So I want to know why don't you person I'm in a relationship care about these things?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'm also lending my grounded position

[B]

to like show up that way. Yeah. Okay, another one. There's no correct timeline of feeling. I think that's big. And this goes to what you talk about all the time, but that this is everybody's first time doing this. And it's like there is no. I think we so just pretend or get caught up in the fact that there has to be some blueprint of life and that somebody has decided this is exactly how everything has to go. And this is how long you're allowed to feel. Feel this. And this is how, you know, there's. We like assume that for some reason and it's like, no, nobody has done this before. Nobody, literally nobody has done this. And nobody has been you in that exact position. Like you talk about all the time. Nobody can put a timeline on how you're feeling things. And obviously there's a way to like, you don't want to sit and ruminate on something forever and you can argue with those things. But there is no. It's not like, okay, you get two weeks to feel that and then you're. You gotta snap out of it.

[A]

If I can be so bold in this kind of relationship. That went pretty quick. What you were dealing with is wild. It was big.

[B]

There's a tragedy in Your life. Yeah. There is no timeline. Nobody can say, hey, you got four hours to feel this, and then we're moving on.

[A]

And you heard that that person's friend had dealt with something similar a while ago and they did it this way. So therefore.

[B]

So I had to do it that way too.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

We're all so different and we're all doing this for the first time where the way that you. We could have the same tragedy happen and you're gonna feel it so different than I'm gonna feel it and your timeline is gonna be so different than my timeline. And it's like, that's not.

[A]

Yeah. Which one's right?

[B]

Exactly. That doesn't mean someone's doing it wrong and someone's doing it right. And so I think that just, I mean, this, again, this was specifically coming from healing from a breakup, but I think it goes to every aspect of life. But it's like there is no correct timeline. And that extends to, I think then everything. Like I get so caught up in the. I'm 26 and I'm single, I'm behind. And like my timeline is wrong. It's like, no, it's not. Who decided that?

[A]

No.

[B]

And so it's just. That extends to every aspect of life that there is no correct timeline.

[A]

That's where I want to look directly into the camera and say that if you are someone who finds yourself often telling your partner that they are doing it wrong, whatever they're doing and they're feeling and the way they're doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then knock it off.

[B]

Respectfully. How did you get the power to decide that that person doing it wrong?

[A]

So my favorite line then would be to like this person that we're talking about. So when he was a 26 year old girl, worked in an esthetician school where somebody there went through a tragedy. If. If he's had that experience, yeah. I'm willing to listen to how he handled it.

[B]

But until you are in that exact position, I don't want to hear it.

[A]

No. So other than that, then actually the greatest thing that he could have done was to make space for your emotions.

[B]

It's that simple.

[A]

It's simple. I mean, it really.

[B]

It really can.

[A]

That sounds so difficult. I can't even imagine how can I show up for you right now?

[B]

That's it. That's all it has to be.

[A]

Yeah. So it shows you how uncomfortable it made him. And then it goes right to the. The most. One of the most emotionally immature things that I think one can express is that, well, you're having a different experience than I am or that I think you should. So therefore you must think you're right and I'm wrong. So now I have to attack you and put you in a one down position and me in a one up so I feel better. Just so not cool. No. It's so crazy. Yeah.

[B]

Backing that though, the fact that healing is not usually linear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's a normal thing. You could have, you could think you're doing so well. You could be months out of a breakup or something going on and then have a day that all of a sudden it just kind of hits you like a truck and you're like feeling all the emotions again. And that doesn't mean you took a step back. It doesn't mean it's like it's. You're just processing things.

[A]

There's so many thoughts that there. Because sometimes I even think that since we don't allow our big emotions to hang out much because we either were never really taught how to do them or we think we're doing them wrong, that every now and again your emotions are just going to do a quick sound check and be like, hey, is this thing on? Like feeling all these emotions and it's like, let's have a deal.

[B]

And guess what? Not final, not permanent. It's just, it's just there. Then I said, being alone is better than settling for less than you deserve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that leaving can actually be a very brave decision. And it doesn't make you a bad guy and it doesn't mean you like gave up on something. It's like, no, if you, you know, like, you know, if it's time for you to leave and there's nothing wrong with.

[A]

And maybe I'll add to that, as somebody who does a lot of couples therapy with people, that there's an emotionally immature partner or a narcissistic partner in the relationship, that leaving doesn't even have to be something that happens immediately. That it's, it can be like you say healings, healing's not linear. So somebody can start putting the pieces together and then they'll probably even try to have the conversations and then they may not go well. And they'll think, what's wrong with me? And they'll think I'm going to leave and then they're going to get like, I can do this. And they're not. And it's just this roller coaster. Yeah.

[B]

Well, the actual like leaving process for me probably was a five month thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like from the first conversation of if things do not change. I can't do this to the actual leaving. Yeah. Probably five months. Yeah. So definitely not just like, boom, I have a lot more, but I'll leave. I'll end on just this one. Okay. And we've talked about this a lot, and this was. This was really hard for me initially. We're now months out, and I'm feeling pretty much just fine. But being the one to leave sometimes means giving the person the gift of getting to play the victim. And you essentially sign off to be, like the villain in their story, even if you're not the one that did anything wrong. But that. That's okay because you know your truth, you know how you were treated, you know how many chances you gave, everything that you forgave and every reason you chose to leave. So you need to just lean into that and find peace. Let them think whatever they need to to ease their discomfort. But you know your truth, you know your reality. But I think that can be really hard, and that can be a reason that people stay in relationships because they don't want to be written off as the villain. The villain or the bad guy. Especially when you're the one kind of taking the. The hit in the relationship over and over and over. If you're the one that's, like, unhappy and you're the one that feels mistreated and then you leave and then somehow end up the bad guy, like, that's a. That messes with the person, and that's really hard. And. And that can feel like literally just the grossest feeling in the world. But you know the truth and you know the reality and the. And I think, too, you can kind of go down the, like, the truth always comes out type of thing, where it's like that person is going to continue the same. The same type of relationship pattern for the rest of their life, and the people in their life are going to see that and going to watch that unfold and kind of be able to piece together, you know, absolutely pieces of it that are actually true. And then you know your reality, you know what happened. You have every right to leave. And that doesn't make you the bad guy.

[A]

No, that's.

[B]

And choosing yourself is actually really powerful and brave thing. And it's not. You're not the bad guy for choosing yourself.

[A]

No. And I. I didn't even realize you had that. That one down, because I don't know if how much we talked about that, but that is one of the most difficult things that when somebody's trying to leave A marriage or, you know, a long term relationship is. It's one. I think if I had to put these stages of grief and loss and those sort of things together. It's one of these final ones. That there's an acceptance because the person will continually try to set it up so that they won't be the victim.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or they won't be the bad guy. And I'm telling them, man, the sooner you can accept. Oh, you will.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then that's okay. Yeah. But it's. You're so right. It's hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone where I make jokes all the time about all the things I learn about that. About even me as a therapist. That I change people's sexual orientation. I made them leave their churches. I made them leave marriages. I made them change careers. I don't have that kind of power.

[B]

Right. But you get thrown into that bad

[A]

guy position all the time because people need.

[B]

You're actually helping people so much.

[A]

But they need a scapegoat because that person can't just say, you know what? I think I was not really the most mature person in the relationship.

[B]

I messed up a little bit. I did some things wrong. Yeah.

[A]

It's like that person was bad. That therapist told him that.

[B]

And that can be really hard to sit with. It's not worth.

[A]

You get used to it.

[B]

But really, it's not worth wasting your time or energy worrying about how that person's gonna spin something.

[A]

Thanks, Mac. That was fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it? I had a good time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Kind of all over the place.

[A]

We're gonna do a little golfing with. With a little grandson guy.

[B]

Cool. Good thing.

[A]

And then. And I am on the social medias at Virtual Couch. On Instagram. At Virtual Couch on Tick Tock. Where do they find you?

[B]

Beauty by Mackie On Instagram and on the ticking talk. I don't know what it is on there. Probably.

[A]

Okay. All right. A fun one to follow though. If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, please write in because we would do a Q A. And taking this out, per usual. Wonderful. The talented Roar Florence with her song. It's wonderful. Because if you do all the cool things, it is wonderful. All right. Thanks, Mac. See you next time. On the virtual couch. That was fun, Mackie.

[B]

Compressed emotions flying past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's wonderful. Elastic waist and rubber ghost I'm floating past the midnight hour they push aside the things that matter more Is wonderful. I have to wonder Red Ghost is mine he eats my Bondo and somehow takes up all my time. The scream by flies they took all my taxes. I'm too vomit it drowns all deep in our dreams. Foreign. The sun is calling.

[A]

Are you ready?

[B]

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