← The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
453: Enes Kanter Freedom—In the Name of Freedom
01:21:51
NBA player turned human rights activist Enes Kanter Freedom shares his remarkable journey growing up in Turkey under an oppressive regime, his rise to NBA stardom, and the high personal cost of speaking out against tyranny. From being exiled by his...
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- [00:00]
Enes Freedom
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Mike
Hey, it's the way I heard it. Sorry I'm a bit.
- [00:09]
Chuck
Wow, you really came out hot and then just flopped.
- [00:12]
Mike
Well, you know, because this is a weird one. I'm Mike, that's Chuck, by the way. If you're. If you're new to the show, in the Name of Freedom is the name of this episode. My guest is Ennis Freedom. I'm stumbling all over the place because I've already interviewed him and to be honest, I already talked to him about a lot of the things that we talk about in this conversation.
- [00:34]
Chuck
Right.
- [00:35]
Mike
But I don't think there's been a more consequential guest on this show maybe ever. And I was struck the first time, but only struck in the way you can be struck when you're interviewing somebody over Zoom or Riverside or whatever that was.
- [00:49]
Chuck
Yeah. It's different when a seven foot tall man is right before you and. And is telling you the story of his life and how he gave up tens of millions of dollars to be a civil rights activist.
- [01:03]
Mike
The story of his young life.
- [01:05]
Chuck
Yes. Right. He was not an old man at all.
- [01:08]
Mike
No. If you don't know it, the short version is this guy lived the American dream. He came over from Turkey as a teenager, very tall, hell of a basketball player. Played most notably for the Utah Jazz and the Boston Celtics, but a bunch of others in between the trailblazers and so forth, just center. It was very good. Great, really. Then he started mouthing off with his shoes. Yeah, yeah. He was concerned about what was happening in his home in Turkey and wrote some things on his shoes to bring that to the attention of the media. And oh, his teammates loved it. They congratulated his bravery for taking a stand because Turkey was not pleased. But then his reach exceeded his grasp and his shoes started to say some things about Tibet and China. And then of course, the NBA could not live with that. And so, long story short, Ennis sacrificed pretty much everything. His career, his family, tens of millions of dollars. And now he's written a book, which I sure hope you'll pick up. It's called in the Name of Freedom. And you know, it took me a long time to get to it, but spoiler alert. The thing that was bugging me through the whole conversation, not bugging me, but just. I was trying to get my head around it because it all sounded kind of familiar. But it really does come back to the difference between a person who will do something brave that has nothing to lose and a person who will do something brave.
- [02:43]
Enes Freedom
Yes.
- [02:43]
Chuck
That has everything that Costs them everything.
- [02:46]
Mike
Yeah, right. Like the guys who signed the declaration. You know, there's also a rumination, too, I think, on courage and, like, especially courage under fire. And I think there's a difference between a person who is simply fearless and will therefore do damn near anything in battle, because their brain just doesn't process fear the same way. Right, right. Versus people who are scared half to death or maybe all the way, and do it anyway. It's hard to know who you are, I think, until, you know, you're confronted with the kinds of choices that Ennis was confronted with. But, my God, he made his choice and he paid a price. And now, you know, nobody's got a crystal ball. But if he's remembered decades from now the same way we remember Muhammad Ali, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
- [03:43]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [03:44]
Chuck
And look, first of all, he's a really gentle giant. He's a sweet guy who really loves people of all, you know, races and religions.
- [03:54]
Mike
Yeah.
- [03:54]
Chuck
And he didn't start that way.
- [03:56]
Mike
No. He started off indoctrinated, unfortunately, like a lot of young kids are in that part of the world. Yeah. He had a very dim view of Americans, a very dim view of Christians, and even dimmer viewers of Jewish people. Yeah. And we talk about how all of those views were challenged and ultimately overcome by the kindness of individuals. And some remarkable advice from his mom that I don't want to spoil, I'll let him tell you that. But this episode is coming out on a day that has become a horrific anniversary the world over. And that topic comes up as well. Gaza and Israel and all the trouble in the world and all the trouble in the NBA. And one guy's story about how he just broke through, all of it. It's very inspirational. And honestly, that word makes my teeth hurt. I try not to use it, but it absolutely fits.
- [04:56]
Chuck
I mean, I was kind of spellbound and a little emotional.
- [05:01]
Mike
Well, you said it right when the conversation ended. One more dude who's better than us.
- [05:05]
Chuck
Yes, that is 100% true.
- [05:07]
Mike
Which wouldn't have been a bad title for this either. But I'm going with the name of his book, which, again, you'll just love. It's going to be a bestseller and it's going to be an important read for you, your kids, your friends. It's called in the Name of Freedom by Ennis Kantor. Freedom, who you will meet either for the first or second time right after this. At 6, 10 and 250 pounds, Enes freedom is a giant American, but he's also an American giant. Why? Because he has integrity, that's why. I think the same can be said about manufacturers who choose to make things in this country. My friends at American Giant, for instance, have been making high quality clothing right here in America for the last 15 years. In spite of the constant pressure to cut corners and and outsource their work, I appreciate their determination to make clothing here and their commitment to make a high quality product here and create jobs here. I also appreciate their desire to raise money for my foundation with microworks t shirts and sweatshirts@american-giant.com Mike. When you see the Microworks logo on an American Giant garment, you'll know that the net proceeds of that purchase will help fund our next round of work ethic scholarships. And of course, no matter what you buy@american-giant.com Mike, you know you'll be supporting the men and women who have dedicated their lives to making things in this country. So go to american-giant.com mike today. Buy something awesome. You've got plenty to choose from. Even if it's just a simple American made T shirt to help us close the skills gap, the quality is second to none. Use code Mike to get 20% off your order at american-giant.com mike. American Giant, American made. American Giant, American made. Thank you for coming.
- [07:13]
Enes Freedom
Of course. Man.
- [07:14]
Mike
We were just chatting about how podcasts evolve and how things change, and I remember interviewing you over. What is it? Riverside, I guess.
- [07:24]
Enes Freedom
Riverside Of Zoom. One of them.
- [07:25]
Mike
One of them, yeah. And you know, it's so weird, man, how you can go from being so grateful to have a way to connect with people, and it just makes your life simple. And then within, like, no time at all, you're so dissatisfied. It's like, this is just not. This is a prophylactic. Like on Riverside, you seem like a normal person. You're like, you can't tell somebody 7ft tall.
- [07:51]
Enes Freedom
In reality, I'm a little scary. A Giant.
- [07:55]
Mike
What a pleasure it is to. To meet you in person. I know last time we spoke, what was it, Chuck? Two years ago?
- [08:00]
Chuck
I believe so, yeah.
- [08:02]
Mike
I had just seen you in Florida at the Patriot Awards.
- [08:06]
Enes Freedom
I was there.
- [08:07]
Mike
You were there. Your story. I mean, I don't know who I was sitting next to to my right or to my left, but they were both weeping.
- [08:15]
Enes Freedom
Oh, man, that means a lot.
- [08:17]
Mike
Well, it meant a lot to the people in the audience. And then when I spoke to you, I remember saying to you, when's the book, man, you've got to sit down. I know you're busy saving the world and making free throws and whatnot. But you've got to get all this down. So two years later, you took my advice. You've written a book. It's called in the Name of Freedom. Congratulations.
- [08:37]
Enes Freedom
Thank you. I appreciate that. Finally. I mean, this was my dream, like you said, for a lot. Like, it's been two years now, and for the last two years, I've been trying to get my family out of Turkey. So my plate was so full, and unfortunately, we failed every time. And then I'm like, you know what? I think I'm just gonna start. I don't want to say I'm, like, moving on or giving up. But then I'm like, you know, I just gotta keep myself busy and just started to write the book.
- [09:05]
Mike
Well, I think maybe for the benefit of the listener, I ought to ask you just to give me a thumbnail of what we talked about in the past and what brought you to this point. Because it's a lot, but I mean, your family, man, make it simple for people to understand. What in the world led you to the NBA and then out of the NBA and finally to here?
- [09:30]
Enes Freedom
I think, you know, the people to understand better. I want to, like, tell you a little bit about my childhood. You know, growing up in Turkey. It was a very difficult childhood. If you are a politician in Turkey and if you want to be elected again, you do a couple things. You attack America, you attack Christians, and you attack Jewish people. And unfortunately, the base is so uneducated, they're like, wow, look at our leader. He's standing tall against America, tall against the west, tall against the Jewish people. Let's vote for him. So that was the case when I was growing up. I remember I was nine years old, I went downstairs to play with my friends, and I remember my friends which, like, who are not even teenagers, they were burning American flags, they were breaking crosses. And I remember, like, asking one of my friends, like, guys, like, what are you doing? They said, well, we should hate America. We should hate Christians. They're devil. They're evil people.
- [10:26]
Mike
Is this in the 80s, mid-80s, 90s?
- [10:29]
Enes Freedom
I born in 1992. So I won't be talking about, like, delightful.
- [10:34]
Mike
You were born in 92.
- [10:36]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. So I'm talking about, like, 2000s. I'm like, what are you guys doing? They said, well, we should hate America. We should hate the Christians, we should hate the West. And I remember one of my friend, which was my best friend, he gave me a flag to burn it. He gave me an American flag. He gave me a lighter, and he said, burn it. I looked down, I'm like, this is not a right thing to do. I threw the flag down. I ran upstairs to my mom. I was like, mom, my friends are telling me to hate Americans, hate Christians, hate Jewish people. Like, what do I do? My mom said, I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but do not hate anyone before you meet them. So that day, I give a promise to my mom. I promise I'm not going to hate anyone before I meet him. You know, like, this doesn't happen in. Well, in some areas, happen in Turkey, but in Middle East. So in schools, front of classes, you have an American flag and you have an Israeli flag. And if you don't step on those flags, you are not allowed to attend the class.
- [11:40]
Mike
If you don't step on them.
- [11:41]
Enes Freedom
Yep, you have to step on them.
- [11:43]
Mike
You walk into the classroom, and you literally tread on the Israeli flag and the American flag.
- [11:48]
Enes Freedom
And if you don't, you will get bullied rest of your school year by your teachers, by your, I don't know, classmates. So the environment I was growing up in was that toxic, you know? Finally, my dad said, we have to move to west. We have to move to Istanbul. And when we moved to Istanbul, obviously, things were a little better, but it was still toxic.
- [12:12]
Mike
Sorry, your hometown was what?
- [12:15]
Enes Freedom
It's a city called Van V A N. It's like the east, very east side of Turkey. People were not really that educated compared to Istanbul or Ankara, the capital. And then when I moved to Istanbul, things got a little bit better. But then, you know, my dad was like, this is enough. You are going to America. I even remember asking my dad, like, dad, you really want me to go to Devil's Nest? He's like, you know, it's amazing because he said, God, go and see yourself. I said, okay.
- [12:45]
Mike
What'd your dad do for a living?
- [12:47]
Enes Freedom
He was. Well, before he got fired and before they thrown him in jail, he was, like, one of the biggest scientists in Turkey. And my mom was a very successful nurse, so they were very well educated compared to other families. And I'm 17 years old. I took a chance, got on a flight. I was about to land in New York for the first time ever. And I remember, like, when I was flying, I saw the Statue of Liberty. I'm like, my man, this is so crazy, because, like, I've been seeing that statue in movies, and now I can. I'm, like, flying over.
- [13:22]
Mike
It was your association, though. I mean, growing up the way you did with that level of, you know, deliberate, maybe indoctrination is too strong a word, but certainly an ethos. Did you associate liberty with that statue? Did you, like, what did liberty even mean to you at that point?
- [13:42]
Enes Freedom
That meant nothing because, like, growing up, we really didn't have, like, much freedom or liberty. And everything was controlled by the governments, the old media outlets, newspaper. I don't want to say all of them, but, like, many of them was controlled by the governments. And when Erdogan took off, obviously became the worst in probably Turkish history, but pretty much everything was controlled by the government.
- [14:08]
Mike
Was Erdogan elected in what you would think of as a democratic election?
- [14:14]
Enes Freedom
Well, in the beginning, yes. And he actually, like, when I have a conversation with, like, people like in Obama administration, the Biden administration, to the Trump administration, they said, well, till 2012, he looked like he was going to carry Turkey to a. A Democrat better and Democratic country. He was keep talking about the Western values and American values. And then once the corruption happened and he got caught back in 2013, everything changed. So.
- [14:45]
Mike
And he was caught exactly doing what?
- [14:47]
Enes Freedom
The corruption scandal?
- [14:49]
Mike
Yeah.
- [14:49]
Enes Freedom
You know, he was stealing from people and him and his family members were involved in it and the police caught him. And then after that, you know, he was just put in innocent people in jail.
- [14:59]
Mike
And yet he was still elected. Yeah, after that, Yep.
- [15:03]
Enes Freedom
He was a prime minister then. So.
- [15:06]
Mike
Heck of a thing, man, what people will do, right?
- [15:09]
Enes Freedom
So, you know, I came to America for the first time. I was 17 years old. It was actually very crazy because it was my first high school practice. And I remember two of my teammates who are Christians, they walk up to me in a locker room and said, listen, man, we know that you're from Turkey and we know that you're Muslim, and if you want, after the practice, we would like to go get some halal food and take you to a mosque. I promise you. I turned around and left the locker room because I just didn't know what they were trying to do. But then I remembered a promise.
- [15:44]
Mike
Don't hate them till you meet them.
- [15:45]
Enes Freedom
Exactly. So I came back. I was like, you know what? What I have to lose. Let's go. They were so respectful. They were so kind. They took me to a mosque. They even took their shoes off. Right. And then we went to go get some Turkish food. It was so amazing, so delicious. That two teammates changed my whole life. They put a little question mark in my head. I started to question. For the last 17 years, I was hearing about how devil, how evil the Americans are. Exactly. So like that, two teammates put a question mark in my head.
- [16:22]
Mike
So were you in where you. Utah or Boston?
- [16:25]
Enes Freedom
So in high school, I went to California, Simi Valley. And it was just an amazing experience. Stoneage Prep, beautiful area. I mean, I just love California because of the weather. It was so beautiful. So. And then after my high school year, I met a friend who was a girl. I remember one day, you know, she called me and said, you know, I want you to come to my house for dinner. Would you like to come Friday? I was like, well, I'm busy Friday. Can I come Saturday? They said, no, no, no, it has to be Friday. I was like, why? They said, well, because that's our special dinner. I'm like, what are you talking about? They said, well, it's a Shabbat dinner. I said, what's a Shabbat dinner? I said, what's a Shabbat dinner? They said, well, just because we are Jewish. As soon as I heard the word Jewish, I hang up the phone, I promise you. And I sit there for a second. I'm like, I cannot believe I just had a conversation with someone who was Jewish. Like, am I going to go to hell? I promise you. Having an American or Christian friend was, I guess, like, sure, whatever. But like having a Jewish friend, man, I'm like, what am I doing? You know? So then I remember the promise again. I gave it to my mom. I was like, God, I don't know if I could do this. So that night I barely slept and in the morning I called her. I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna call her and say I'm go. So I called her. I was like, listen, I'm gonna come, but listen, I don't eat pork. I don't drink alcohol. They said, good, we don't eat pork either. I was like, oh, interesting.
- [18:10]
Mike
So did she say, hey, man, you hung up on me. What was that all about?
- [18:13]
Enes Freedom
No, she was the kindest person, man. She was so nice. She knew that I just. I mean, my mind was poison. So she was just taking her time. Before I went to her house, I called one of my friend that lives in America. I was like, listen, I'm going to go to my friend's house. And he was like, so then why are you calling me? He's like, well, she's Jewish. He's like, you crazy. What are you doing? They eat babies, they drink blood. They're going to convert you. You crazy.
- [18:41]
Mike
Now this isn't just like hyperbole. Did your friend genuinely believe that?
- [18:47]
Enes Freedom
Oh, yeah, of Course, I don't think.
- [18:49]
Mike
He can just gloss over it. A lot of people listening are like, yeah, people, you know, propaganda and so forth.
- [18:56]
Enes Freedom
Oh, no, no.
- [18:56]
Mike
You genuinely believe the Jewish people are eating babies and drinking and drinking blood?
- [19:02]
Enes Freedom
Yeah, that's what he said. So I was like, listen, my mom is one of the most important things to me, and I gave her a promise, and I cannot break that promise. I gotta go. I asked him, like, I want you to do one thing for me. And he said, what is it? If you don't hear from me for the next two hours, call the police. This is the address I'm going to. So I gave him my friend her address, and I was like, if you don't hear from me for the next two hours, you gotta call the police.
- [19:33]
Mike
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- [21:02]
Enes Freedom
Anyway, so I took an Uber, went to her house. Before I got into her house, she kissed her hand and just slapped the door. I'm like, what are you doing? I said, oh, that's a mezuzah. That's like the prayer that when we walk in the room, that we kiss. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. So when I walk onto her house, her mom greeted me with Turkish delight. And I was just very like, this is very interesting. I was like, are they trying to brainwash me? Why are they being so kind?
- [21:31]
Mike
And what exactly is Turkish delight?
- [21:32]
Enes Freedom
Turkish delight is like the most, I think, like after Turkish Bach level. I don't want Greek people who's watching to get mad.
- [21:38]
Mike
Oh, we don't let the Greeks listen.
- [21:39]
Enes Freedom
You're fine after Turkish baklava. Turkish delight is actually one of the most like famous thing that the Turks. Turks put it out there. Anyway, so. And then we sit down in a Shabbat table. The first they were just praying. They put their hand over their face and they prayed and stuff. And they light some candle and stuff. They were explaining everything to me step by step. And then it was time for the. To pour the wine or pour the grape juice. And I'm like, there's. It's something red. I'm thinking about like, is this the blood that my son is talking about? It's the blood or is it actually like they said? So he gave it to me. She gave me the little glass. I was like, I'm not drinking this. Sorry. She said, well, it's a grape juice. You want me to try? I was like, you can go ahead and try. I'm not going to try anything. So that night, I remember I had one of the most amazing dinner I've ever had in my life. The food was very similar, Middle Eastern food. Some of the culture was very similar, the washing hands and all that stuff. And her mom said, before I was about to leave, she said, don't pay for Shabbat, just come anytime. This is your family. When I got in the car, I got so emotional because there are millions of kids in Middle east growing up anti Semitic, anti West, anti American, anti Christian, just because of those hate speeches. I was like, that day, that night, I promised to myself, whatever happens in life, I'm gonna do whatever I can to inspire those millions of kids in Middle east growing up without knowing anything, without knowing the other side. Yeah, that just. So that was a big dinner, the huge dinner.
- [23:21]
Mike
Are you still in touch?
- [23:22]
Enes Freedom
Yes, I'm actually still in touch with her. She still helps me with a lot of things. I mean, I usually like give names and stuff, but like whenever I give names, they usually get attacked by Turkish trolls. So I keep anyone, everyone's name secret.
- [23:39]
Mike
How much of that is in the book?
- [23:42]
Enes Freedom
It is in the book without giving any names. Like, if you look at like the first couple pages, I usually use code names so the people won't the Turkish government or whoever won't go after them or after their family.
- [23:53]
Mike
And this dinner, how old again were you when you had this dinner?
- [23:56]
Enes Freedom
Oh, my God, like, 18, 19, something like that. Yeah.
- [23:59]
Mike
So that's a big moment. Then very quickly your NBA career unfolds and everything's coming up roses, and you're just. You're in the land of opportunity and liberty, and you're the center for, what was it? Utah first?
- [24:12]
Enes Freedom
Utah first.
- [24:15]
Mike
And then the Celtics.
- [24:16]
Enes Freedom
Then the Celtics, the Knicks, okc, Portland. So I literally got a taste of, like, the whole America, every part of America. But the beautiful thing was, you know, I went to University of Kentucky. Coach Cal, I think one of the best, you know, college coach out there. I had an amazing time around that time. I was trying to learn English, and I couldn't literally learn any English for a year straight because I had no idea what people in Kentucky was saying because the accent was just so thick, man. Yeah, I had an English translator for whatever day. I understand nothing.
- [24:53]
Mike
I find that super interesting. Is there a corollary in Turkey where in part of the country you can be completely fluent in the language? Is it Arabic, Farsi?
- [25:04]
Enes Freedom
It's Turkish. It's Turkish. But like you said, it's like America, like, part of Turkey is, like, you talk with, like, a thicker accent, and, like, people from Istanbul or Ankara wouldn't understand what you're saying because your accent is thick and you use some, like, very different words and stuff. And also, like, where I grew up, there were a lot of Kurdish people, so some of them mix with Kurdish with Turkish. So I'm also like, part Kurdish and Turkish.
- [25:31]
Mike
How many languages do you speak?
- [25:33]
Enes Freedom
I only speak two. It's actually very funny. So I learned English. I'm gonna give the crazy story. So when I went to college, I went to one of my teammates. I'm like, listen, man, like, I wanna learn, like, the English that like. Like, you guys speak. Is there, like a show out there or, like a TV series or a movie that you can give me that I can watch it and learn English? He said, yeah, of course. I was like, what is it? They said, Jersey Shore. So it's crazy. I started watching Jersey Shore, right? I'm like, if this is America's about, Americans are doomed. You know, this is crazy.
- [26:10]
Mike
You should have watched Dirty Jobs. It's all grill pretty on that one.
- [26:14]
Enes Freedom
No, it was very hard for me to, like, adjust American culture because, like, the one day I woke up before the practice. You usually eat something, like a cereal, whatever. So I Pour a cereal brand and I mix it with the milk and I start eating it. And all my teammates were started to, like, go crazy and laugh at me. I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like, why are you guys laughing at me? They said, this is not cereal. This is Cheez it. You know, they said, this is not a cereal. I didn't know what cheese it was. I was like, this is the first time. I guess Americans like their cereal salty.
- [26:47]
Mike
Anyway, you had a bowl of Cheez its before the game. That's great.
- [26:53]
Enes Freedom
But, yeah. Then after that, I got drafted by Utah Jazz. I was very lucky because Mormons, very peaceful and kind people. They knocked my door so many times. We had so many beautiful conversations. But the reason I was very lucky, because there's not much things going on in Utah. Everything was shutting down at like 8.
- [27:10]
Mike
9Pm Not a big drink in town.
- [27:13]
Enes Freedom
Definitely not. So I was focusing on basketball. It was perfect for me.
- [27:18]
Mike
So just to kind of cut to the chase, because I know we did talk about a lot of this before, but I just want people to understand as best they can. Did it all go bad overnight or did you. When did you first take a stand that created the series of events that ultimately led to your banishment?
- [27:40]
Enes Freedom
So 2013, in December, there was a huge corruption scandal happened in Turkey. President Erdogan and his family was involved in it. And after that corruption scandal, after President Erdogan got, you know, got caught while he was a prime minister back then, he started to put innocent people in jail. He started to shut down media outlets. He started to put, you know, prosecutors in jail. And I'm like, I don't care who you are, but if you're fighting against free media, I'm gonna say something. So I literally put a tweet out there because of the NBA platform. It became a huge conversation in United States and Turkey.
- [28:14]
Mike
You're at the Celtics at this point.
- [28:16]
Enes Freedom
I was with Utah. Yeah. So that really bothered the Turkish government. They sent a lot of signals and said he better stop talking about the issues. First. My dad was scientist. They fired him. My sister, she went to medical school for six years and she still cannot find a job. And I think the saddest one was my little brother, because he wanted to be like his big brother, played basketball in NBA, but because of the same last name, he was getting kicked out of every team. So my family was getting affected so much, they had to put a statement out there and said, we are disowning Ennis. So the letter actually still out there on The Internet. I remember going to a practice that day. It was definitely one of the toughest day of my life. And then Turkish government didn't believe that letter. They said, did you? I don't have any communication with my family, so I never really had a conversation to ask. But the Turkish government didn't believe that. They sent police to my house in Turkey and they raided the whole house and they took every electronics away, phones, computers, laptops, iPads, because they wanted to see if I am still in contact with my family or not. They couldn't find no evidence because I wasn't. But they still took my dad in jail for a while. If you are someone who's not high profile, they will torture you in jail. But if you're someone that was high profile, they will give you chemicals to mess up with your brain. So when my dad got out, I asked my brother, like, how is he doing? He said, he watches the walls all day. And when we ask him what happened in there, he never talks about it. And then after that, things got worse, you know, they revoked my passport. They tried to kidnap me from Romania. They arrested me in Romania.
- [30:02]
Mike
Wait, and is this. Is this all because of a tweet?
- [30:06]
Enes Freedom
Yeah, well, I mean, after the tweet, I started to, like, talk about more and more issues because, like, it's my country. And the thing is, I'm not talking about politics. This is human rights. I was talking about the human rights violations of political prisoners. So I don't care which party you are in Turkey, you have to support what I have to say, because this is not politics at all. This is pure human rights. And then after that, they revoked my passport, they put my name on Interpol list. I am now only allowed to go to 29 countries in the world. If I go any other country, then that immediate extradition. Exactly right.
- [30:46]
Mike
They have to. Because of whatever treaty they signed with Interpol, they have to send you back to Turkey.
- [30:53]
Enes Freedom
Even they said this, which would just blow my mind. So I was going to Jerusalem to organize a basketball camp between Israelis and Palestinians. So if you go from America directly to Jerusalem, the plane goes over Turkey and it's their airspace. When I had conversation with some of the ambassadors here, they said, listen, this is dangerous because usually, like the Belarus government, what they did was they call up the plane and say, there's a bomb in a plane. They bring the plane down, they do like a little fake search, and they said, we can't find anything. But they arrest the guy and they said, okay, keep going. So when we Had a conversation with the airline company. They literally went around Turkey so I could just. So I could just be safe. Which I want to give a huge shout out to all the ambassadors to make this happen. And then just, you know, recently I had a conversation. I went to visit Pope back in 2022. I went to his audience. Listen to speech. Beautiful speech. And then, literally the next day, they put a bounty on my head.
- [32:02]
Mike
The Turkish government.
- [32:03]
Enes Freedom
The Turkish government put a bounty on my head. And I had a conversation with the FBI. Literally, the next day. They said, listen, this will trigger a lot of bad people. We cannot protect you outside of America. You have to get back to America immediately. So I took a next flight, came to America, and now everywhere I go, I have to let someone know that where I am. Even when I was playing for Portland Trailblazers, the FBI came to my apartment to check in. Yeah, exactly. And they said, apartment not safe. You have to move to a hotel. So I moved to a hotel room. When I was in a rogue game, they came to my room, and they set up this thing called panic button. They said, whenever you feel uncomfortable, push that button, and we'll be there in two, three minutes.
- [32:46]
Mike
So what's the NBA doing in the midst of all this?
- [32:50]
Enes Freedom
So actually, like, when the conversation obviously was not China, but was about Turkey, they respected me so much. You know, Adam Silver many times came out and said, you know, we support our player.
- [33:03]
Mike
Commissioner.
- [33:03]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. Commissioner of the NBA. They said, like, you know, the whole NBA, not only the commissioner, but like, my coaches, my teammates, the front office, they said, listen, you know, keep doing what you're doing. You believe in you, standing for what you believe in, and, you know, we are praying for you. Adam Silver actually have many times came out and said, we support our player, and his interviews are out there on the Internet. You know, that meant a lot to me because, you know, when basketball was my escape, I mean, I have not seen my family over 11 years. So every time I step on the court, it was just all about me and my teammates just having fun. They were just like my brothers. Literally, NBA became my family.
- [33:44]
Mike
Yeah. Until.
- [33:46]
Enes Freedom
Until. Until I started to talk about China, Tibet, every issue. Actually, not only Tibet is actually. It started very, very funny because I was doing a basketball camp with Hakeem Jeffries in his district. After the basketball camp, all the kids just lined up one by one, and we were just taking pictures and getting autographs. I remember there was this one parent. I was taking a picture with his. With his kid. He literally called me out in front of everybody. And he said, how can you call yourself a human rights activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are getting tortured and raped every day in concentration camp in China.
- [34:32]
Mike
Uyghurs.
- [34:33]
Enes Freedom
It's the Uyghurs. So I was just, whoa, right? And I'm still smiling for the camera for his kid. I was like, I promise I'm going to get back to you. So that day I canceled everything. I went back to my hotel. I'm like, I started the research. Uyghurs, Tibetans, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese people, Mongolians, Falun Gongs, right? My plate was full for the last 10 years because of. I've been trying to get my family out of there. But then I'm like, listen, if I call myself an activist, I don't care what it takes. I'm not only going to talk about on behalf of Turkish people, I'm just going to go out there despite their religion, culture, whoever they are. I'm just going to be the voice of voiceless people. And then you just decided, you just.
- [35:20]
Mike
Decided, I've got this career and I've got a platform, I suppose, right?
- [35:24]
Enes Freedom
Exactly.
- [35:24]
Mike
I mean, you saw what a tweet could be. What if you really lean into it? Shameless plug. This plug is so shameless. I'm glad you can't see me because I'm probably gonna blush when I tell you that Noble Spirits, the whiskey named after my granddad, is winning gold medals right and left. A double gold medal for our barrel strength and another double gold for our Rick House. And not just from some random organization that likes to hand out trophies. This is from the American Distillers Institute. Google them and check it out. They're very serious about their whiskey and about how they rate it. And I'm just delighted to see Noble has found such a great audience. You know, this started as a fundraiser for Microworks and it's still been really effective for us. The online proceeds benefit Microworks, but you go in a store now in 30 different states and you can find Noble and people are loving it. If you haven't tried it, this would be a great time to pick up a bottle. At noblespirits.com you spend 100 bucks and you get nine sugar cubes ingeniously designed to make nine perfect old fashions. One tube contains nine orange bitter infused sugar cubes. Just drop one in with two ounces of Noble, muddle it up and boom, you got a perfect old fashioned. People love them anyway. Good for us. We're winning gold medals. Give it a try. Noblespirits.com that's Nobel with a K, K N O b e l spirits.com soon may the noblemen come to bring a bottle for everyone. One day when the waiting is done, we'll take a drink and go.
- [37:09]
Enes Freedom
So actually this time I decided to not put a TV out there. What I care about was I was like, I want to inspire the next generation. So Celtics fans are going to get mad, but so I grew up as a Lakers fan, obviously, Kobe Bryant and Shaq and the championship whatever teams. So like when I was waking up at like 3, 4am in Turkey and watching the Lakers and the first thing I was watching was the shoes. Obviously every kid in the world just loves shoes, right? So I came up with this idea. I was like, I'm going to reach out to all these artists around the world who's been oppressed by their governments and I'm going to ask them to put all the struggles on a shoe and I'm going to go out there and play basketball. So I looked at the rulebook.
- [37:56]
Mike
You turn your feet into a billboard.
- [37:58]
Enes Freedom
Exactly. I looked at the rulebook. There is no rule against it. Because back in 2020, during COVID NBA put us in a bubble. And in that bubble, everybody was putting on their shoes. Breonna Taylor, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, I can't breathe. So I'm like, there is no rule against it. If they're allowed to put I can't breathe on their shoes, I should be allowed to put Free Doygurs, Free Tibet or whatever. So I was playing for the Celtics. You're gonna love this. I was playing for the Celtics and our first game, it was the season opener for the Knicks. It was at Madison Square Garden. Literally every celebrity you can think of was at that game. I'm talking about Spike Lee, Ben Stiller, Tracy Morgan, all the cats, everybody. So I put the shoes on. My first shoes was the Free Tibet. I went out there, start the warm up. Literally, the game hasn't started yet. One minute before the game, there was two gentlemen from the NBA. They were walking for the Celtics. They came up to me and said, take your shoes off. I'm like, excuse me. They said, your shoes has been getting so much attention internationally. The game haven't started yet. You gotta take them off. It was the perfect moment for me because I was just getting ready for my citizenship test. So I was like. I closed my eyes. I was like, okay, we have 27amendments. My first amendment, freedom of speech. I turn around, I'm like, no, I'm not taking them off. I was like, I don't even care if I get fined. They said, buddy, we're not talking about getting fined. We're talking about getting banned. They were literally threatening me to get banned from the NBA because of the shoes that I was wearing.
- [39:42]
Mike
What a long way you came from the kid who hung up on the nice Jewish girl who invited him over for dinner. I mean, that's amazing. But okay, so that's a moment, like, and a lot of these moments. And as for me, anyway, you know, and not that I've been in anything that extreme, but you don't know it till you look back and you realize, wow, that was the thing that was going to change or alter the trajectory of my life. Did you understand in the moment how consequential that was?
- [40:14]
Enes Freedom
I understand later on because they were panicked. After the first half, I went back to locker room, which I played 0 minutes in the first half. There was thousands of notifications on my phone. I clicked on the one that my manager sent me. He said, every Celtics game is banned in China. It took them 24 minutes to ban every Celtics game on television before the.
- [40:42]
Mike
Game started because they saw you practicing, they warming up.
- [40:48]
Enes Freedom
I was laying the ball up. I was not playing at all the game. I mean, there are like little cameras. The game was televised, like, obviously nationally. It was on ESPN or something. So, like, before the game, obviously, they took like a little videos of the players and stuff. So the first game, it literally took them 24 minutes. The first quarter, 12 minutes, second quarter, 12 minutes to ban every single out this game on television. I was like, well, that clearly shows my point. The first half, I went back to back out there. I warm up a little more. And the second half, again, I play 0 minutes. The game went to overtime. I played, which I played every game, every preseason game before that. We lost the game, obviously. Obviously. Anyway, so after the game, literally, I was getting, like, media requests from all over the world. I told my manager, cancel everything. I just didn't want my teammates to think I'm doing this for attention. After the game, the NBPA called me, which the player association. I paid thousands of dollars every month to protect my rights against NBA. They said, you cannot wear those shoes ever again. I even asked them, am I breaking any rules? They said, no, you cannot wear them ever again. They pressured me so much. I was like, you know what? I promise you guys, I'm not going to wear free Tibet shoes every weekend. They said, promise? I said, promise. I hang up the phone. So the second game, oh no, I wore free.
- [42:10]
Mike
See where this is going, right?
- [42:13]
Enes Freedom
So the second, I didn't lie though. The second game I wore free Uyghur shoes. They called me after the game. They say you lie or you lie to us. I was like, first of all, I didn't lie to you. I never said I'm not gonna wear free Uyghur shoes. I just said I'm just not gonna wear free Tibet shoes. The third game was like, was the end because we played against third or fourth game, we played against Charlotte. And who owns Charlotte? Michael Jordan. I order his shoes. His most famous shoe is called Concord. I put made with slave labor before the game, right? I'm gonna go out there and play with those. I saw Michael Jordan on the stands and I was just like, this is it. Like this cannot get any more fun and better than this. So I went out there with his shoes, play front of Michael Jordan with his own shoes. And put made with slave labor. After the game, all my teammates walk up to me and said, buddy, this is your last year. Have fun. You're not gonna be playing basketball ever again on an NBA court. So say goodbye to basketball. My agent called me and he said, listen man, I work for you. I don't work for an NBA, but this is our last year. Just have fun. If you say, I mean, you already did enough damage to NBA and everyone else around you. But if you say another word, you're not going to be playing basketball ever again. You're 29 years old, you can play another six years. You're not only throwing away six years, you're literally throwing away between 30 to 40 million dollars. I said, okay. I hang up the phone, never talk to him again. And February came. I played my last game. And after the game was against the Brooklyn Nets.
- [43:52]
Mike
Were you still wearing shoes at this point that are upsetting people?
- [43:55]
Enes Freedom
Oh yeah, of course. I was like, if this is my last year, I'm just gonna go all out.
- [43:59]
Mike
You might as well just get yourself tattooed.
- [44:02]
Enes Freedom
I played against my last game against the Brooklyn Nets. And then after the game, the next day was the trade deadline. And after the game everybody was giving me hugs and shaking my hand and pretty much like telling me goodbye. Cause they knew I was either gonna get released by the Celtics or they were gonna trade me to a team. And that team was gonna release me 10 minutes before the tread deadline. I got traded to Houston Rockets, which is known by the China's team because of Yao Ming. And then Houston Rockets literally released me in three Minutes and three weeks after they released me, they put the games back on in Chinese television.
- [44:44]
Mike
Did you ever get a sense of what kind of money was at stake? Chinese rights broadcast, like, I mean obviously the NBA made a financial decision, but to what degree?
- [44:57]
Enes Freedom
So more people watch NBA games in China than American population last year. So think about the shoe sales, the jersey sales, 10 cents. Think about all the TV deals.
- [45:10]
Mike
Tencent is the big company that's sort of like Facebook on steroids.
- [45:14]
Enes Freedom
Exactly. Every NBA player, I don't want to say everybody, like most of the NBA player. Whenever their season over, what do you do? You gotta relax, right? You go to a vacation with your family, you hang out, you just chill. Before even they go to their vacation, they go to China to organize a basketball camp. I even remember I played in some teams. I don't wanna call out some names right now, but like right after the All Star breaks, I'm talking about like March season was about to end, like what, April if you don't make the playoffs. They were planning their China trip. They said, well, I want to go here, I'm going to go do this because I got a lot of business, I got a lot of money. And I'm just like, I'm just very shocked. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. The players literally planning their China trip before their family vacation.
- [46:00]
Mike
I'm still stuck on the fact that 400 million people watched the NBA in.
- [46:07]
Enes Freedom
China, maybe more now. And also like 40 NBA owners got tied up $10 billion with Chinese government.
- [46:16]
Mike
So this is what I'm trying to get to. It's not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions. It's many, many, many billions of dollars.
- [46:25]
Enes Freedom
Of course. Yeah. And that's every year it comes down.
- [46:27]
Mike
To a frickin pair of sneakers. Dude, you put on a pair of shoes, you poked the bear in the eye. Actually that's a bear. That's, that'd be Russia. What is, what is China? You poke the panda bear in the eye.
- [46:41]
Enes Freedom
Actually, it's very funny. You know the, the cartoon called the Winnie the Pooh sure. Is banned in China.
- [46:47]
Mike
Winnie the Pooh is banned in China.
- [46:49]
Enes Freedom
You know why?
- [46:50]
Mike
No.
- [46:51]
Enes Freedom
So Xi Jinping, the president of China, they were making fun of him because they said, well, he looks like the Winnie the Pooh. This dude banned literally the whole cartoon in the whole country. So they called him like Winnie the Pooh. It's very funny because my first interview, I wore a Winnie the Pooh T shirt and no one really got what I was saying. What I was trying to meant, but it was very funny.
- [47:15]
Mike
Well, it's a. You know, Winnie the Pooh was Piglet and Eeyore, Tiger, Tigger. Wonderful thing about Tigger. Tigger's wonderful thing. The tops are made out of rubber. The bottoms are made out of spring. Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. Bundles of fun, fun, fun. The wonderful thing about tiggers is I'm the only one. Yeah. I grew up with, with Winnie the. But I had not. I had not heard that. Fascinating. So just a quick little sidebar.
- [47:43]
Enes Freedom
There you go. Right here. Come on, man. I could see it, right?
- [47:48]
Mike
If you could put the hat on.
- [47:50]
Enes Freedom
The eyes, the mouth, the nose.
- [47:53]
Mike
Just no sense of humor, though. I mean, really, you know, I mean, you ought to be able to laugh at that.
- [47:58]
Enes Freedom
Exactly, man. Come on. Like, you cannot just ban the whole cartoon because some people were saying he looks like him.
- [48:08]
Mike
I'm gonna get back to the NBA in a minute. Because it is a. I mean, I find it appalling, actually. I appreciate the sport and I have some friends who are season ticket holders, and some of them, you know, I had heated conversations with the last time I talked to you, and they listened to the podcast and were like, that was compelling. And then I said, and then you went back to your season tickets, didn't you? Well, yeah, we're still gonna watch. Very, very, very, very, very difficult to get people to change that kind of behavior on this level. But look, I wanted to talk to you in person about all of this because two things have happened since I talked to you last. The first is a guy sat right where you're sitting named Jan Kellick who writes for the Epoch Times. And he and I had a long conversation about organ harvesting.
- [49:02]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Mike
Which I don't know how much you know about that, but they're talking about an 8 or a $10 billion market.
- [49:10]
Enes Freedom
We would made a shoes out of organ harvesting. Yeah.
- [49:14]
Mike
Say that again.
- [49:14]
Enes Freedom
We even made a shoe that will expose all the organ harvesting.
- [49:18]
Mike
Oh, God. I thought you said you made a shoe out of organs that were harvest. I'm like, that's a. That's a. No, no, no. That's not a best selling.
- [49:24]
Chuck
That's a bridge too far, right?
- [49:26]
Mike
Yeah, that's actually. Lace that up.
- [49:28]
Enes Freedom
I want to show you. Actually, the shoe is actually pretty crazy. Let me see if I can pull this up.
- [49:39]
Chuck
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- [50:55]
Mike
Keep your eyes on the prize@prize picks.com Mike May. I'll find it because I want to send it to my friend Jan because he's been. This is. And you mentioned them in passing, but the fool on Go Gong Falun Gong.
- [51:11]
Enes Freedom
Yep.
- [51:12]
Mike
Right. There you go.
- [51:13]
Enes Freedom
This is right here. If you look at the organ harvesting shoes. So I really wanted to expose the whole thing.
- [51:19]
Mike
Oh, man, that's fantastic.
- [51:21]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. So like I literally wear this in an NBA game. Yeah.
- [51:27]
Mike
Oh, man. There's no way I'm going to be able to show this to the camera.
- [51:30]
Chuck
I found it. Oh, you found Instagram. I'm putting it up here.
- [51:33]
Mike
There it is.
- [51:35]
Enes Freedom
I told you I was going to go all out there, right?
- [51:38]
Mike
Dude, you are a jagged little pill.
- [51:40]
Enes Freedom
Sounds like.
- [51:40]
Mike
Let's just explore without the little part.
- [51:42]
Enes Freedom
Yeah, I was like, let's just expose the whole system, man.
- [51:45]
Mike
What size shoe is that?
- [51:46]
Enes Freedom
Oh, these are like 17s.
- [51:48]
Mike
What are you wearing?
- [51:49]
Enes Freedom
You wear 1717. And the crazy thing is these are not even basketball shoes.
- [51:54]
Mike
Well, I'm just saying that if it were my shoe, there'd be room for Stop Org. He's got room. Like, it really is a billboard. If you're like a nascar so these.
- [52:04]
Enes Freedom
Are not even basketball shoes. These are like, you know, converse, like some type of, like these are like walking shoes out there. And I was like so afraid that I'm going to wear those shoes and roll my ankle in them. So these are not, not like true basketball shoes. Like you walk with those shoes out there.
- [52:18]
Mike
I'd wear those.
- [52:19]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. So this is.
- [52:21]
Mike
Can I get a pair of those?
- [52:22]
Enes Freedom
Of course, yeah.
- [52:23]
Mike
Like where do I go? Where do I order a pair of those?
- [52:26]
Enes Freedom
So we have to, we have to make one, but custom. Yeah, well, I'm going to need two actually.
- [52:30]
Mike
Otherwise I'm limping around with my right foot with an important message and a hush puppy on my other one.
- [52:34]
Enes Freedom
The other one was about if you can pull it up. The other one was about the surveillance cameras.
- [52:39]
Mike
Oh.
- [52:40]
Enes Freedom
It was about how Chinese government use surveillance cameras to just track people.
- [52:46]
Mike
Well, that, that's important to me too. But it's also interesting that it was a camera and a shoe combined that really brought you to where you are.
- [52:55]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [52:56]
Mike
It's attention being paid and people reacting as they react. You just forced people to. You put them in a really inconvenient spot. Billions and billions of dollars. And I'll just say it, man. I mean, how else can you spend this? The NBA made a financial decision that had absolutely nothing to do with principle.
- [53:22]
Enes Freedom
I was having this hearing in D.C. and all these congressmen and people are asking me a lot of tough questions, both sides, Democrats and Republicans. I asked them at the end of our hearing, I asked him one simple question. I was like, listen, how can a dictatorship can control a hundred percent American made organization like NBA and fire a US citizen? They all looked at each other and they said, we have no answer.
- [53:52]
Mike
And then they looked at their shoes. Because that's what people do.
- [53:55]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [53:55]
Mike
When they don't know where else to look.
- [53:58]
Enes Freedom
I mean, listen, till this day I don't talk about politics. I can proudly say that. Like, listen, if you. Human rights is above politics. I don't care which side you vote for, whoever party you cheer for or whoever congressman or senator you, you support. Like you have to care about human rights, you know, And I'm, I'm so happy that my message never changed. No one can spin my message and say, well, he's doing this because of that. I really care about people, man. Because I think that the one thing that our world is missing is empathy. While we are comfortably living in this country and playing basketball, making millions and eating the most delicious food and sleeping in the most warmest bed on the other side of the world, people are losing their loved ones, losing their lives and losing their homes. So for that's why, I mean, I just wish that more athletes, because they play a very important role in our society, I wish that just more athletes stand up for what they believe in.
- [54:55]
Mike
Well, in their defense, Ennis, it's only the hardest thing in the world. It's only the hardest thing in the world. And the fact that, I mean, I know it must have been difficult for you, but I just. I don't know how else to say it. It's just overwhelming for people to do that. I mean, look, it's one thing to say a thing. It's another thing to say it and then say, I mean it. In fact, I'll raise my hand and take an oath. In fact, I'll make a pledge to God and my family. But then you really turn the screws, and then you start to see where the courage of the convictions is. And what. What did you sacrifice? A career Check. Millions of dollars. Personally check. Your family? Check. Your friends? Check. So what else can they take?
- [55:47]
Enes Freedom
The thing is, say someone like LeBron, someone like Kevin Dren, someone like Stephen Curry, or all these athletes who's been, you know, signed with Nike or whoever, right? If they say, like, stop the slave labor, right, to Nike or whoever, they will stop it. If all these, like, players get together and actually, like, started to, like, become a movement, like, my voice is only one, right? But think about if Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, or LeBron James or, like, these people started to join. I don't want to say I want to educate them because they already know the conversations that are happening. They already know that their shoes being made by slave kids back in China. It all matters to, like, if they're gonna stand for what they believe in. And, you know, many of them came out and said, you know, we are more than athletes. But then you pick and choose.
- [56:45]
Mike
Do you have security?
- [56:47]
Enes Freedom
I do in America. I mean, I am in touch with FBI, but when I go outside of America.
- [56:52]
Mike
No, I mean, like, you showed up here by yourself. Would you drive yourself here?
- [56:55]
Enes Freedom
Oh, no. Downstairs I have people.
- [56:57]
Mike
You have somebody downstairs?
- [56:58]
Enes Freedom
Okay, I have people downstairs, yeah.
- [57:00]
Mike
Look, man, I'm trying to do two things now. Just as a human being who's been walking around for 60 some years, I'm trying to put myself in your place, and I'm trying to put myself in LeBron James's place, and I'm trying to put myself and Stephen Curry's place. And what you just did, you Literally just called them out right here. You literally are just saying, if you could take half a dozen of the creme de la creme NBA players and come together, sit down right here, cameras anywhere, and just say, we're sitting here united with one goal to make this stop, and we're not gonna play until you stop it. I mean, you put it out there. I'm articulating it. And I'm just really wondering at what point do one of those, like, what would it take if you could pick one of them to stand right next to you and say everything that you've just said, who would it be?
- [58:01]
Enes Freedom
I think, like, the, like, someone like LeBron, right? I mean, he is the face of the league. And he was the one person that, during like, 2020, when all the protests were happening, I mean, like, he was the one, like, I guess like the biggest name in sports that came out and said, okay, this is wrong. This is right. This is that. This is this, right? So every player pretty much like in NBA look like, looks up to him and, like, he just signed a $1 billion contract with Nike. It's a lifetime contract, by the way. So, like, what else do you want? You know what I mean? You are LeBron James. Like, what else do you want? And you have a chance to become, like, maybe I'm not saying as big as Muhammad Ali, but, like, you know, bigger maybe.
- [58:50]
Mike
So think it just.
- [58:52]
Enes Freedom
Yeah, with the media now, with the social media and everything, like, you could get bigger, but now, like, half of the country thinks you are a hypocrite because you are standing things that will happen in America because you know that is not going to affect your pocket.
- [59:07]
Mike
But Enes, he's not looking at half the country, not that half. He's looking at the half that show up at every game, no matter what, who applaud. He's looking at what he wants to see.
- [59:17]
Enes Freedom
Right, right.
- [59:18]
Mike
It's like, there's the elephant. I'm going to focus on the tusk, never mind all the rest of it. So. But I get your point.
- [59:26]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. So obviously he's not the only name. I'm just calling him out because, I mean, he is the face of the league still at the age of like 4, 40, 41. So I just hope that like. Like, I'm just saying, like, put yourself in their shoes. Put your kids in their shoes. If your mother, if your sister, if your daughter was on those concentration camps getting torture every day, would you still pick money and business over your morals, values and principles? Empathy, man. Empathy. You know?
- [59:54]
Mike
Yeah, well, empathy follows awareness, right? Typically, not always, but, you know, the ostrich syndrome is the thing. You know, once you. God, there's a. I forget who I was talking to this about, but the most compelling anti war movie I've ever seen is called Come and See.
- [60:19]
Enes Freedom
Okay, didn't watch it.
- [60:22]
Mike
I almost can't recommend it because it'll stick with you in a way that you probably don't. But then again, here I am mentioning it. It just. The point is, I just took a tour of Dachau. I was in Germany, and I felt I didn't really want to see it.
- [60:39]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Mike
If I'm being honest, it didn't feel like a great way to spend a cloudy day, but I'm so glad I did. It's like I didn't learn anything new, but everything I thought I knew, I saw. And when you're standing on a place reading a plaque, that's explaining specifically what happened on the place where you're standing, okay. It's just another level. LeBron James didn't hang up on a nice Jewish girl 25 years ago who invited him to a dinner. He didn't have a mother who said, right, Wait to hate him till you meet him.
- [61:20]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [61:21]
Mike
He didn't have your past, you didn't have his, and so forth and so on. But I just find it so extraordinary to, like, all these guys are just living their lives, and then this kid comes over from Turkey and puts on a pair of inconvenient shoes, and now they're being called out. And look, I told you there were two things. The first thing since I talked to you last was the organ harvesting thing. The other thing was October 7th.
- [61:51]
Enes Freedom
Yeah.
- [61:52]
Mike
In fact, I think you and I probably talked right before that.
- [61:55]
Enes Freedom
We did, yeah, pretty much, yeah.
- [61:58]
Mike
I mean, given all of this, and I know you don't get political, but you kind of open the door, where are you with what's going on over there now?
- [62:06]
Enes Freedom
So here's what I look at it. I have so many Jewish friends. I have so many Muslim friends. And obviously after October 7, both side reached out and we had a lot of, like, conversations together. This is what I focus on, the innocent people. Obviously, as a Muslim, of course I support my Palestinian brothers and sisters, but at the same time, there are thousands of innocent people, kids, whatever, civilians, mothers, fathers, are being killed on the Israeli side as well, you know? And when I say this, people go crazy. It's like, no, no, no, you have to pick a side. Like, I don't get into politics. People behind a table are the one that given the orders, but the innocent people on the streets are the one that gets hurt. So what happened October 7th was one of the most disgusting things that happened. And after that I started to research, but this is what I found out, actually. So our prophet, prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had war rules. Like when we go to war, he said, we have rules. And I looked at those rules, right? He said, when we go to war, we are not allowed to kill babies. We're not allowed to kill women. We are not allowed to kill elderly. We're not even allowed to kill animals or cut down trees. We are not. If someone is running, you cannot go after them and kill him. We're not allowed to knock down the holy areas like mosques or, or synagogues or temples or church. We're not allowed to kill a priest or a rabbi. So if any group or if anyone goes against what our prophet said, he does not represent true Islam. So what Hamas did that day does not represent Jerusalem. I just wanted to get it out there. And you know what? All the rules and everything out there is actually on the Internet, so you can actually go and look at it.
- [64:01]
Mike
There's some rules on the other side too, right? The ten Commandments. Everybody's got a playbook. Even the NBA, there's a playbook for you.
- [64:10]
Enes Freedom
That's why I'm like, yeah, exactly. So that's why I'm like, I try to focus on the kids and the innocent people. Like when I. We just talked about it when I went to Jerusalem, when I brought the Israeli kids and Palestinian kids together, right? I remember, like the first day, the Palestinians were staying in one half court and Israeli was on other court. Forget about passing a ball to each other. They were not even like shaking his or they were not even looking at each other. And I, like, started to put them in the same team. They were not passing the balls, whatever. And then after a while, because those are just kids, after a while, you know, they started to, like, talk, have conversations. And I remember like one. I put myself in the same team with a Jewish kid and a Palestinian girl. I got a rebound. I passed the ball to this Jewish kid. He crossed someone over. He passed the ball to this Palestinian girl, and she scored a ball. While she was coming back, they high five each other. I'm like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. This is what we need. And then after two weeks, you started to start to hug each other. They started to exchange numbers. They started to follow each other on Instagram. I'm like, this is what we need the most in life, man. Because everybody has their right and wrong. You ask the Palestinian side, they have rights. And you ask the Israeli side, they have rights, whatever. But like, as an activist and as a Muslim activist, of course I care about my Palestinian brothers and sisters and what's happened over there is terrible as well. But at the same time, man, I have to care about those innocent people on the Israeli side too.
- [65:45]
Mike
It's really the most beautiful thing about sport. The idea that when people who don't agree on much come together to high five a great no look pass followed. I mean, it's like, that's a great thing. It's a small thing, right? It's a high five.
- [66:03]
Enes Freedom
That's it. That's all I needed, man.
- [66:04]
Mike
But a shoe is a small thing too. Yeah, maybe there are no small things. As I say to a seven foot. How tall are you exactly?
- [66:14]
Enes Freedom
I with shoes on, I'm like, I'm close to 7 foot. I say 7 foot is easier to say.
- [66:19]
Mike
Who do you admire? Who do you admire in the wide world of sports more than anyone and why?
- [66:25]
Enes Freedom
I will pick, I think Muhammad Ali, because what he did not only on the ring, but off the ring was just.
- [66:31]
Mike
You realize how despised he was?
- [66:33]
Enes Freedom
Yeah, at one point. Yeah.
- [66:34]
Mike
69, 70, 71.
- [66:37]
Enes Freedom
And then he became a legend after that. Do you ask anyone now that what he did on and off the ring was just unbelievable?
- [66:46]
Mike
How do you sum up that? Was it sacrifice? Was it standing for a thing? Was it being unpopular, willing to be hated?
- [66:55]
Enes Freedom
I think the sacrifice, not only talking about money or I'm not only talking about like career wise, because everybody can go out there and speak up things that are most matter to themselves. But once the money or the family or the career got involved, many people says like, okay, you know, that's where I just draw the line and say, enough. But I respect people who goes beyond and actually make some sacrifices for what they believe in. That's where I start. Respect people. It's all about hypocrisy. You know, I'll give you the best example. Colin Kaepernick was my Ruthie good friend when I was having all this, you know, fights against, you know, the Turkish government. Me and him sit down and had a lot of conversations about, like, what can I do to fight order.
- [67:53]
Mike
Did you know each other prior to that or did he reach out?
- [67:56]
Enes Freedom
No, we were messaging on. He followed me on Twitter, I followed him back and we just messaging and finally we Met in New York. He was giving me a lot of ideas about how I should fight and bring even more awareness. The day I started to criticize Nike, I never heard from him ever again. So that shattered my heart because this guy used to send his, like once a month. He used to send me gifts. I still have his jerseys. I still have his jerseys in my house. You can pull it up too. I mean, it's on Google. Like if you put Dennis Ken or Colin Kaepernick, our picture will come up. But I just thought that, you know, he will, you know, stand with me. And I'm like, well, I finally have a friend that, who made pretty much like a similar sacrifice. And the day I started to criticize Nike, I never heard from him ever again. I tried to text him a couple times. I, you know, sent him a message on social media and that was it.
- [69:02]
Mike
This is sort of interesting. I'm gonna send you a link to a story I wrote that was actually inspired by him. And it's called Something to Stand For. In fact, it was turned into a movie and I was struck. God, when was it? When did all the kneeling start?
- [69:21]
Enes Freedom
2000, I guess. Like, I'm trying to think actually. 19, 20, maybe a little. Maybe like 17, 18, maybe even.
- [69:30]
Mike
I think so. Yeah, I think so. Because I was so torn. I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but it was such a strange thing to see. Nevermind Colin, but a stadium full of people so confused over whether to stand and sing or kneel and pray and just all. Everybody doing different things in an attempt to somehow express themselves, which is really not so different than writing some words on a shoe. Right? This is the human condition. We feel something and we want to share it. We want the camera at us so more people can see it and whatever. But I think that it's the great struggle of our time. What will you stand for and why will you do it? And when the going gets tough, will you stick or not?
- [70:23]
Enes Freedom
That's the important part.
- [70:25]
Mike
I mean, this isn't even comparable. It happens to me in a thousand different ways all of the time. But it's okay, once you say a thing. If I say, look, you know what I really want? I want the sponsors on this podcast to all make their products in America. That's what I want. Yeah, And I do. But how much do I want it? Because there are a couple of sponsors here that make a terrific product, but it's not made in this country. Now what do I do with that? How do I think about that? Where Do I draw the line? It's real easy for people to look at me and go, oh, well, you're bringing. I guess you sold out, didn't you? Yeah, well, maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Maybe my line is just drawn a little differently. I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying that you mentioned the word hypocrisy. Everybody is looking for the inconsistency in their hero, the fault and the star, because we love to bring guys like LeBron down. We love that. We like to build them up. We like to bring him down. You're weird and super interesting because I don't know anybody who's. Who sacrificed so much. So blah, blah, blah. Why'd you write the book? And what do you want people to feel when they read it?
- [71:49]
Enes Freedom
Well, because I was just. I wanted to give something to the world because all these threats, all this thing I wanted to. Is actually on Internet. There was so much threats. At one point, I wanted to do a life insurance. I called the company and said, listen, you have a very high percent chance of getting killed. We cannot give you a full coverage. We can only give you health coverage. So I literally have two different coverages now, half and half because they didn't want to give me the full coverage because they said, well, I have a high percent chance of getting killed. But I had a conversation with the State Department. Some people from the State Department. They told me to. Not to give their name. We sit down and had the craziest meeting. They told me that which government can use which tactics to get me or bring me down. It was literally like, when I walk into the room, there was like, all the countries lined up one by one. They said, china. I said, you are 30, whatever years old, you're single. From now on, you'll be getting text messages, calls, DMs, WhatsApp, messages from one of the most beautiful girls in the world. Do not answer any of them. They're Chinese spies. They said, you will be stopping on a light and a car will be coming and hitting you in the back. And then the girl will come out, be 10 out of 10, and will exchange numbers. And then, boom, you'll become their slave. Watch out. For the last two, three years, that got into my head so bad, I have not answered any girls. I don't know what their motto is. You know, are they out there to get me or they really like me because of me? Second one was Russia. They said, not in America. But we talk a lot about, like, the Russian issues, too, with Like Gary Kaspar or Bill Brother, they said, not in America, but outside of America, they will follow you and they could try to poison you. They said, Iran, they don't play with girls or poisons. They will come and shoot you. North Korea, they said, they will try to hack you. Turkey, they will try to kidnap you. So all this threats were happening, right? And I had so many other conversations with FBI and they were just giving me so many different, like, threats that I've been receiving from many different ways. But if ever something happened to me, I wanted to just give something to the world. This book, why I did it, literally, this is like why I did it, why I sacrificed my family, which people calls me crazy. They said, dude, shut up. You have not seen your family for 11 years. Just shut your mouth. And just so they'll be okay, you know, or just make 30, 40 million more dollars and live the best life. Or just play basketball. Play another five, six years. You're still young. You're 29, 30 years old. This book talks about why I did it, why I sacrificed my family, my career, tens of millions of dollars, and give everything I had, you know, Regrets. No regrets. The only thing that I just wish I played a little longer because when I changed my last name to Freedom, I became a citizen. I changed my last name to Freedom. I wanted to make that word part of me carried everywhere I go. So I was putting that word behind my jersey in every arena I go to. I remember all the kids were chants and freedom. You know, in America, like, you can take your freedom for granted. Like my teammates. I remember when we had this conversation with my teammates, they were destroying America. They're like, oh, my God, America is terrible and horrible. I remember I woke up, I walk in the locker room, I'm like, guys, listen, our season is about to be over. And whenever our season over, let's go to, like some of the countries out there, like Iran, China, Russia, Turkey, North Korea. And you guys will see, like, the real dictatorships. Like, they have no idea. So that's why I want. I wish I played a little longer. So I want. Because I wanted all the kids, all the young generation out there to just to learn about the true meaning of freedom.
- [75:53]
Mike
What would you do if some team invited you to play again?
- [75:58]
Enes Freedom
I'm still, listen, I'm still healthy. I'm still 33 years old, young. I can still, you know, get a double. Double, I believe, you know, and now, like, the least league is getting softer and softer every day, man. All the big men's just Wanted to pick and pop and shoot the ball. No one wants to do the dirty work. No one care about rebounds or whatever, back or back to basket plays. But I will definitely discuss with my people. But what I care about is just not the money, not the fame, or not anything to inspire the next generation. So if playing basketball is the reason that, that I can inspire the next generation, sure, I'll play. But if not, then, then the NBA hurt me so much with their hypocrisy. I don't even ever want to watch NBA game.
- [76:49]
Mike
Your family, do you think you'll see them again?
- [76:54]
Enes Freedom
You know what's so amazing? Right before I, when I got my green card, I was doing this big show and this lady said, you know, you don't have to wait five years. If you're married with an American woman, it's only three years. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. The next day I got so much DM from all over the country.
- [77:15]
Mike
I bet you did.
- [77:16]
Enes Freedom
All over the country, right? Obviously, I waited, but so many Americans now invited me to their home for Christmas, for Thanksgiving, for Shabbat dinners. I remember I used to, you know, wake up every morning and I used to pray to God and I was like, God, please let me see my family one more time. But whenever I go around and America is treating me like one of their family members, when they treat me like I'm their son, right, they invite me to like Shabbat dinners, Thanksgiving dinners. To them I'm just another guest. But to me, it's another family. I realized that God has given me a huge family and it's America. Am I ever going to get to see my family ever again? I have no idea. My mom is getting old, my dad is getting old. I don't even know what their face look like. My brother sends me a picture of them sometimes. He plays basketball outside of Turkey in America. But like, I have no idea, like, what they even look like now. But I know that deep down they're proud. They cannot say that they're proud because that is an act of terrorism to support me. But I know deep down that they are proud. They've been through a lot. You know, they got fired, they're thrown in jails. My mom got spit on her face once. You go to supermarket. My dad got kicked out of a mosque recently. But I know deep down that they are proud of their son.
- [78:49]
Mike
Ennis, I don't know you well enough to be proud of you, but I admire you in the same way. When I Think about the guys who signed the Declaration of Independence and how many of them had so much to lose, you know, they were the 1% once upon a time. They risked everything, and many of them lost everything, you know? And so the ball's on you to do this. Appreciate it. And I guess the final thought is, you know, all of the things that you're trying to impact are enormous. All of the ways you've attempted to do that are tiny. A dinner, a phrase, a shoe, micro, macro. Right. Big, little.
- [79:44]
Enes Freedom
Yeah. Well, no. Without sacrifice, there is no freedom. And I hope that this. I can pass this message or torch to a next generation, because if no America, China is next. And I don't want to see a world that is being run by the Chinese dictatorship. We would not want to be living in it.
- [80:04]
Mike
I'm serious about those shoes. I'll buy a pair.
- [80:07]
Enes Freedom
Of course.
- [80:08]
Mike
The book is called in the Name of Freedom. This is the galley. The actual copy is available in stores right now. And for the record.
- [80:14]
Enes Freedom
Oh, no.
- [80:15]
Mike
Yeah, yeah. This is not the actual copy. Ennis Freedom succumbed to an old trick that I did when I wrote a book. You get the COVID done first by FedEx, right? And then the book's not ready, so you need to go out and show people the book. So I picked this up, and I started looking through it, and I'm like, man, this guy is so much to say, well, this is Jordan Peterson's book with his cover on it. It's just a prop.
- [80:44]
Enes Freedom
Jordan Peterson. Don't hate me, please.
- [80:46]
Mike
Jordan Peterson. You know what, Jordan? I'm gonna conclude with two messages. The first is to Jordan Peterson. Call me. You got to come on this podcast at some point and buy End is Freedoms book. It's great. And my guess is if you ask him nice, he'll send you this one since it's actually your book, too. And secondly, with great respect, LeBron Stefan. Yep, he's doing a hard thing. No pressure, but, you know, everybody's watching. Thanks.
- [81:19]
Enes Freedom
Thank you for having me, man.
- [81:20]
Mike
Anytime.
- [81:21]
Chuck
If you like what you heard and.
- [81:23]
Mike
Even if you don't Won't you please, won't you please, pretty please? Pretty please subscribe? Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty freaking please, please sub. Oh, please sub.
- [81:43]
Enes Freedom
Subscribe. Morning, Zoe.
- [81:52]
Mike
Got donuts.
- [81:53]
Enes Freedom
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress, and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me. So, Dana. Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system. Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [82:22]
Mike
Nice.
- [82:22]
Enes Freedom
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [82:24]
Mike
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [82:25]
Chuck
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.
- [82:27]
Mike
Us with eligible traded in any condition.
- [82:31]
Enes Freedom
So what are we having for launch? Dude, my work here is done.
- [82:34]
Chuck
The 24 month edition credit is on.
- [82:36]
Enes Freedom
Experience beyond for well qualified customers plus.
- [82:37]
Chuck
Tax and $35 device connection charge credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and.
- [82:43]
Enes Freedom
New line minimum $100 plus a month.
- [82:45]
Chuck
Plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based.
- [82:47]
Enes Freedom
On analysis by Ooklab Speed Test Intelligence.
- [82:49]
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