466: Winn Claybaugh—Hairdressers Rule the World

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
Episode: 466: Winn Claybaugh—Hairdressers Rule the World
Date: January 27, 2026
Guest: Winn Claybaugh, Dean and co-founder of Paul Mitchell Schools, philanthropist, author, and podcast host

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Episode Overview

This episode revolves around Mike Rowe’s enlightening, funny, and personal conversation with Winn Claybaugh, a driving force in cosmetology education and philanthropy. The discussion delves deep into the world of professional beauty, the power and influence of hairdressers, overcoming adversity, the importance of workplace culture, and what truly motivates people in their careers and lives.

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Main Themes & Key Topics

• The Importance & Power of Hairdressers: Examining hairdressers’ unique impact on individuals and society at large.
• Education, Culture, and Building Empires: How Winn built his education-focused company and why culture is at its core.
• Philanthropy and Giving Back: Insights from celebrity partnerships and Winn’s “Masters” podcast.
• Overcoming Addiction: Winn’s very personal journey through addiction and recovery.
• Workplace Purpose, Belonging, and Legacy: How meaningful work and workplace values change lives.

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Detailed Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Mike and Winn Connected

• Mike recounts a transformative haircut experience in North Carolina and how it prompted him to include cosmetology in his foundation's scholarship program.

  "It didn't occur to me that maybe our country was suffering from a lack of good haircuts. ... I was wrong to not include that from the very beginning." (02:31, Mike)

• Winn first reached out when seeking Mike’s presence at a Paul Mitchell School gala, which ultimately led to their friendship and this episode.

2. Scope of Cosmetology and Winn’s Background

• What does "cosmetology" cover?
  Winn: “Anything within the professional beauty industry—hairdressers, skincare, barbers, nail technicians, massage therapists… It’s all under my umbrella.” (07:55)

• Winn’s nontraditional path:
  Never a hairdresser himself, Winn found his calling in education and fostering talent.

• On not being the ‘best’ or the ‘smartest':

  “I know what I'm good at, I know what I'm not good at. What I'm really good at is helping people be loyal to a company, a cause... that's healthy, that's integral.” (09:05, Winn)

3. The Genesis of Paul Mitchell Schools

• Problem-solving:
  Early in his career, Winn was frustrated that too many graduates were unprepared for the real world—so he started his own school focused on education and readiness.

• Student energy:

  “They have beginner’s luck, which basically means they don’t know it won’t work… I can walk into my school with the stupidest idea, and they're like, yeah, let’s do it!” (15:32, Winn)

4. Philanthropy & The Power of the Beauty Industry

• Hairdressers rule the world—literally:
  Winn tells stories about how knowing celebrity hairdressers got him immediate access to people like Betty White and Dolly Parton, facilitating impactful philanthropy and fundraising for causes like animal welfare and children’s literacy.

  “Go call her frickin’ hairdresser! ... I had Betty White on the phone within a week.” (32:43, Winn) “Hairdressers rule this planet. I have thousands of reasons why...” (30:32, Winn)

• Industry generosity:
  Winn discusses the culture of sharing, mentorship, and support in beauty, contrasting it with other, more secretive sectors.

• Grassroots giving:
  Paul Mitchell schools have raised $27 million for various causes—mostly through very small donations and creative events like bake sales and “topless” (no roof washed!) car washes. (77:15–78:13)

5. Stereotypes, Opportunity, and Economic Impact

• Battling stereotypes:
  Both Mike and Winn address the stigma around trades and vocational skills—including cosmetology.

  “Hairdressers are put on a pedestal; they can become celebrities in their own right.” (38:35, Winn)

• Industry by the numbers:

  • 10–12,000 students enrolled per year in Paul Mitchell Schools alone. (52:11)
  • Cosmetology/barbering jobs have a 7% projected growth, with 89,000 positions going unfilled last year. (53:02)
  • Stylists can earn $50–65k working part-time, with full-timers easily hitting six figures, especially in major markets. (53:51–54:50)
  • Flexible hours, high entrepreneurship, and opportunities for women and breadwinners.

6. Personal Stories, Addiction, and Resilience

• Winn’s recovery:
  Openly shares his experience as a recovering meth addict—clean 23 years.

  “It got pretty bad. I could have easily lost everything. ... By grace, one day I knew I was done and that was it.” (71:57, Winn)

• Family legacy:
  Winn credits his mother as the heart of his business, teaching him about culture and compassion in both life and work.

  “My mom taught me otherwise… you’ve engaged my time, but you haven’t engaged my heart, my loyalty. And my mom taught me otherwise.” (59:21, Winn)

  Touching stories about his late mother’s involvement in his business, her wisdom, and the close, mutually supportive relationship they had. (57:38–59:21)

7. Culture, Purpose & Workplace Well-being

• Core values over technical skill:

  “We’re going to start with culture... teach you how to be a good human being, the value of being nice and communication and treating each other with respect.” (63:28, Winn)

• Three basic human needs in work:

  1. Safety
  2. Belonging
  3. Purpose
     (66:56)

• Legacy and aging:

  “People die for three reasons: lose money, lose love, or lose purpose... Focus on purpose—that’s legacy for me.” (65:48–66:52, Winn)

8. Hairdressers as Community Figures

• The deep trust between hairdresser and client:
  Touch, confidence, vulnerability, and the role hairdressers play at key life moments from “cradle to grave.” (43:44–44:49)

• Hairdressers as connectors and confidants:
  Hairdressers know everyone and are deeply trusted—clients even check with them before following their psychiatrist’s advice! (45:24–45:47)

• Powerful anecdote:
  Sister Bonnie, a nun who became a hairdresser to serve the homeless in Cincinnati:

  “She’s the only Catholic nun that can say she’s been in the bathroom with 10,000 men—and they all came out smiling.” (80:44, Winn)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the impact of hairdressers:

"Hairdressers rule the planet. And I have thousands reasons why I believe that that's true." (30:32, Winn Claybaugh)

On philanthropy and connection:

"Go call her frickin’ hairdresser! ... I had Betty White on the phone within a week." (32:43, Winn)

On work culture:

"You’ve engaged my time, but you haven’t engaged my heart. You haven’t engaged my loyalty. And my mom taught me otherwise." (59:21, Winn)

On overcoming adversity:

"I was a really good drug addict. I was a good one. I'm an overachiever." (55:46, Winn)
"It got pretty bad. I could have easily lost everything. ... By grace, one day I knew I was done and that was it." (71:57, Winn)

On purpose and legacy:

"As far as legacy, it’s ... did I really make a difference in the lives of people? ... I love money, but as far as legacy ... it’s to really make a difference in people's lives." (66:52, Winn)

On the economics of cosmetology:

"Based on the data, it's looking like a person could earn high 50s, mid-60s working 27 hours a week." (53:51, Ryan via Winn)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:04–04:35: Mike tells the origin story leading to this episode; introduction to Winn's background
• 07:13–09:32: Winn on his path, company culture, loyalty, and finding the right people
• 14:33–15:44: The origins and evolution of Paul Mitchell Schools
• 21:22–26:44: Winn’s “Masters” podcast and stories about major philanthropists and celebrities
• 30:32–33:34: Why “hairdressers rule the planet,” anecdotes of access and impact
• 35:00–41:56: Economic opportunity, flexibility, and changing post-pandemic career attitudes in cosmetology
• 53:02–54:50: Job statistics and earning expectations for stylists
• 55:46–57:03: Winn’s candid account of drug addiction and recovery
• 59:21–62:28: Lessons in business and life from Winn’s mother
• 66:52–68:24: Purpose vs. money, the role of culture and meaning at work
• 80:44–81:38: Sister Bonnie—the hairdresser nun’s story of serving the homeless
• 84:16: Where to learn more about Paul Mitchell Schools: paulmitchell.edu

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Recommended For

• Listeners seeking inspiration in career and personal growth
• Those interested in the transformational power of skilled trades, especially cosmetology
• Leaders focused on building exceptional workplace cultures
• Anyone rebuilding after adversity or grappling with purpose and legacy

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Closing Thought

Mike summarizes the episode with gratitude for their conversation and Winn’s impact—not just on aspiring cosmetologists, but on countless lives improved by kindness, purpose, and the hard-won lessons of resilience.

Mike Rowe (74:10):
"I'm just so delighted this has happened... what is the country really suffering from? It's suffering from people who have lost purpose, who have lost hope, who are struggling financially. ... To be able to find those things through the mastery of a skill—any skill..."

Explore Paul Mitchell Schools:
paulmitchell.edu

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Listen to Winn’s own podcast:
Masters

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For more on scholarships for trades—including cosmetology—visit Microworks.org.

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Transcript

[A]

So I'm in North Carolina probably four years ago, shooting an episode of Dirty Jobs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's Mike Rowe, by the way. It's the way I heard it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I realized I need a haircut. It had been like four months. So I go into this salon, it's called Cut. And this woman named Alyssa immediately starts to give me such a weird, sassy, hard time. She's so. Just likable, funny, pretty young girl who was about to go on a break, but agreed to stay and cut my hair. Did she know you were micro? She did. She said her dad was a big fan and that he had forced her to watch Dirty Jobs from time to time. Forced her growing up. Yeah. Okay. That's the kind of sass I'm talking about. Okay, Got it. Like, she wasn't really capable of paying me an honest compliment, but she gave me a pretty good haircut. And during our conversation, I learned that she worked in another salon on the other side of town and that she also was a hostess in a restaurant that her family owned.

[B]

Three jobs.

[A]

Three jobs every day working 12, 15 hour days.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so I wrote about this girl who cut my hair on Facebook. And it was just one of those posts that was shared literally 200,000 times. Reached millions, millions of people. Anyhow, flash forward. Well, not really yet. The last thing she said to me is, hey, that scholarship thing you're doing, you know, so she's familiar with microworks. And I said, yeah. She goes, it's pretty great. How come you don't have anything for cosmetologists? Don't. And honestly, I had no answer. Like, I have no good answer. So I said, ah, you know, let me, let me think about it. And of course, the real reason was I was very focused on the construction trades, the roads, the water, the electricity. Yes. Our infrastructure. And it didn't occur to me that maybe our country was suffering from a lack of good haircuts. You know, but when you start to think about the number of people who work in this industry who make a living cutting hair, I was like, ah, we should maybe do it. It's certainly a skill. Well, it is a skill. Yeah. Well, flashing forward now, this year we got so many applications for cosmetology schools. Yeah. That we had to really think seriously about the degree to which we push it because the whole campaign could be overrun with cosmetology. I think it was the fourth. We just went over these numbers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was like the four largest cohort of applications or recipients.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so that's Great. I've got no complaint with all of it. It was just, wow, man. I was wrong to not include that from the very beginning because you're talking about really hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who make a living with this skill. Anyway, I got a call, I don't know, eight months ago, a year ago, maybe from some guy called Win Clay Ball, who wants to book me at some gala for John Paul Mitchell. Cosmetology school attendees. Right, right. And they're not raising money for their schools, they raise money for charity. But the students in the schools are a big, big part of this whole thing. And, you know, Win is sort of the guy who built this educational empire with John Paul DeJoria. Anyway, there's a conflict. I can't do it. I politely pass and apparently this guy starts to stalk me.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It happens. Yeah. And I wind up sending a video that they can play at their thing, along with my apologies for, you know, not being able to show up. Right. Long story short, I just had lunch with him. He lives down south of here. And, you know, we connected and he was very grateful for the video and I was interested in his industry and I said, look, next time I'm in town, just, you know, come up, we'll have a bite. Lunch was so good. I was like, look, man, would you come back to my office and just be on an episode of the Way I Heard It? He said, yeah, I'd be honored. So the conversation you're about to hear wasn't really planned too much, but I'm going to tell you, it's among the best conversations I've had. It's a good one. It's a real good one. It's. It's staggering. The guy overcame addiction. He's devoted to his mother. He's built a multi billion dollar brand. He's a big deal. Yes. And you know, he couldn't be sweeter. Just the nicest guy. Yeah. Bald as can be.

[B]

Very bald.

[A]

Yeah, I did notice that for a guy who deals with hair. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think you're going to enjoy every single minute of this conversation. I know that I did. He gave me a copy of a book he wrote 20 years ago. It's called Be Nice or Else. I can't wait to dive into it because it perfectly epitomizes the worldview of. I'm just going to say it. The one and only Win Clay Ball, whose acquaintance you will make right after this. Dumb. In honor of President's Day, PureTalk is offering unlimited talk, text, and plenty of Data for a Jackson and a Lincoln, that's $25 a month. Meanwhile, big wireless is celebrating like it's Ben Franklin Day, charging families hundreds of dollars for the same basic service. That's just crazy. Ben Franklin wasn't even a president. When you switch to PureTalk, you'll save some Benjamins, for sure. But you'll also be in business with an American wireless company who supports our vets in a big way and keeps all their customer service in this country. That's important. And you'll be on the same towers that the big carriers use, so you'll get the same 5G coverage without the inflated price. So hang onto your Benjamins and switch to PureTalk for a Jackson and a Lincoln. A mere $25 a month for unlimited talk text and plenty of data, plus no contract and no cancellation fee. Go to puretalk.com roe and you'll get 50% off your first month. Again, that's puretalk.com roe to make the switch to an American wireless company. That is truly unprecedented. PureTalk. This exact scenario is why I wanted to do this podcast. In the beginning. I mean, we had, you know, a lot of people come in here. Every now and then you find yourself out in the world, and you just have an unexpected lunch with an unexpected guy who turned out to be more interesting than I thought he was going to be. And then you say, hey, you want to come by and sit down and do the podcast? And he says, yes. And now here we sit, right on the poise of being unforgettable and fascinating.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

No pressure.

[B]

Lots of pressure. You kidding me? And you paid for lunch. That means I have to deliver even more.

[A]

You know what's funny? I was seriously thinking, all right, the first words out of my mouth are going to be, hey, thank you for lunch. You didn't have to do that. But obviously you didn't.

[B]

That's because you drank so much, I couldn't afford the bill.

[A]

Technically. I mean, I don't even know where to begin with you, man. If ChatGPT is to believe that all. You're a chronic overachiever. You. I mean, you're just out there everywhere talking about your chosen trade. And your chosen trade appears to be cosmetology. Or at least, is that fair, or are you cosmetology adjacent in your profession?

[B]

Well, anything within the professional beauty industry. So which is cosmetology? Which? Hairdressers. But it's skin care, it's barbers, it's nail technicians, it's massage therapists, it's all of the above.

[A]

That's all under your umbrella?

[B]

That's all under my umbrella. In our Paul Mitchell schools. Most of our schools have 2, 3, 4, 5 courses. So in different states. Some states have different licensing between being a hairdresser and a barber and a skincare therapist and a nail technician. And so, yeah, we offer all kinds of different courses to help people get through that career path and into an incredible, incredible industry. And it really is. And I'm not a hairdresser, so I'm the biggest fan. And I'm. I never even went down that path myself.

[A]

I think we have a fair amount of things in common. I honestly don't know how much you know about me, but through odd circumstances, I have become one of the people at the grownup table around the whole skilled trades initiative in this country. I myself was not blessed with an inherent ability to do many of the things that the people my foundation assists are actually quite good at. I feel like you just confessed something.

[B]

Similar, that I'm not the smartest person in my company. Yeah, I did. I'm not the prettiest, I'm not the most talented. And the good news is I don't have to be any of those things.

[A]

Who has to be?

[B]

I hire the right team. I'm very, very clear about who needs to be a part. I know what I'm good at, I know what I'm not good at. And what I'm really good at is helping people be very, very loyal to a company, to a cause, to an organization that's healthy, that's integral. And I believe that all of those things doesn't matter what it is that you're selling, what, what product or service you're selling. My gosh, if you come from that type of a culture, you're going to attract the best of the best.

[A]

So you've been with John Paul Mitchell. He's your partner, right?

[B]

John Paul De Jure is my partner, yeah. And he's one of the co founders of the Paul Mitchell hair care product.

[A]

Well, who's Mitchell?

[B]

Well, there were two men, so it was John Paul DeJoria and he was the sales guy. And then there was a man named Paul Mitchell who was a hairdress. He passed away in 1989 of pancreatic cancer. And so.

[A]

And then there's this guy, Win Clay Ball, whose name isn't incorporated into.

[B]

Not at all. I'm waiting.

[A]

You just. See, that's what makes you interesting, man. You're that behind the scenes guy with no hair. You are hairless.

[B]

I'm hairless.

[A]

Well, I don't know that. I mean, there's no hair that I can see. Chuck, to be clear, I think the word is bald.

[B]

Bald. He's bald.

[A]

Bald. We don't know if he's hairless. What a difference, man. What an important. I think about Chuck. I mean, he's. Right now, I guarantee he's making a note. He's like, make him show you his back. It's probably covered with a thick pelt.

[B]

Oh, gosh. No, it's not. It's not.

[A]

Do you actually waxing?

[B]

We do that as part of the training. If you're. Especially in the skin department.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pursuing that career. Waxing is a big part of that.

[A]

When did that happen in our society? When did it occur to us that getting hair removed and using wax to do it might be wise?

[B]

I have no idea. Can you check Chat. GPT. Let's. I have no idea when that came up.

[A]

I mean, if Chuck's remotely curious, he will. I'm just asking because, you know, I was in. Where was I? I was in Munich. No, I was in Switzerland. Yeah, I was in Zurich and I needed a haircut.

[B]

I thought you were going to say you needed your back waxed and you're telling me a Zurich story about.

[A]

It's worse.

[B]

That's not going to be a good story.

[A]

No, it's worse. Full disclosure. Win offered to come here to the office to have my hair cut. He was going to bring an actual barber or barbarous or stylist with him to thank me, I guess, for including your industry in our work ethic scholarship program.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

And I love free stuff. I love it. I don't really need it. I'm blessed. I can afford most all the things I need, but I just love. I just love when people give me things for free. It's just old, you know? Yes, Chuck. It occurred originally in ancient Egypt and.

[B]

Mesopotamia, 3000-2000 BCE to start removing hair.

[A]

Yes. Using wax.

[B]

Okay, got it. Yep.

[A]

Fascinating. You know, the Egyptians really were working through a lot of. They were ahead of things. They were ahead of their time, really, when you think about it. Well, anyway, I'm in Zurich and it's. Suddenly I have a very important meeting with some very important people and I need a haircut. So I go into something I think it was called Finest barbershop in Europe. And while I'm there, I see a guy finishing his cut, and he lays down and the barber goes over and takes a lid off of. Looked like a crock pot full of bubbling tar. And he took a couple of Q tips and loaded them up and shoved them up the guy's nose and waited and then pulled him out. And.

[B]

My God, you've had that done, right?

[A]

Well, I did it as soon as I saw. I didn't want to do it, but I just felt like I just finished my haircut, too. And I'm like, well, I'm in Zurich. I don't want to be rude, and I'm all about experiencing things. Taylor was with me. He filmed it, actually. But I'll tell you, man, it makes you think very different about your own. Just your. When a man from Zurich who speaks five languages hands you the Q tip that now looks like a porcupine filled with the hair in your nose you didn't even know you had, it just makes you wonder what else is going on on various parts of your body that you can't really monitor, Right?

[B]

It's a good thing we have those people, right? You promote the trades. We need people who have talent and skill and pay attention to that stuff.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you, this, man walking through. It was winter when we were over there, and I had never. It's like one of those things you don't know until you correct it. But the amount of cold European air that was flying through my nose unencumbered by any follicular blockage was shocking. And I must admit, if I could do. I should probably do this again. I should make it a thing. But I haven't had my nose waxed since.

[B]

Okay, well, that's when I come. Next time, I'll bring somebody who will do your. Not just your nose. We're gonna do your ears, too.

[A]

Okay, so you say that like you've looked at my ears and determined some work could be done.

[B]

I am being really kind and have good manners today.

[A]

You don't have to be.

[B]

And by the way, you said you like free stuff, so people need to know. I came with gift baskets for you today. I brought you a lot of free Paul Mitchell products.

[A]

So I still don't know exactly what's in them, but I will cherish them.

[B]

It's good stuff. Really good stuff. The best of the best.

[A]

I mean, between that and a lunch. Honestly, I was hoping for the lunch, but. But I'll fix Paul Mitchell swag. So 25 years, you and John Paul DeJoria have been partners?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Did this whole partnership evolve around the notion of education and schools, or was there, like, what was the business a quarter century ago?

[B]

So I Started my own salon 40 years ago. And soon after starting my salon, I realized the people that I was interviewing who were graduating from local cosmetology schools to come and work in my salons after spending a year in school way back then were not at all ready to work and compete in the professional beauty industry. And I thought the best way to train them would be to train them myself. And so I opened up my first school and then opened up a second school. And what happened was I fell in love with education. Tell you the truth, I sold my salons. And had I. Here I am admitting this. Had I not gotten into the school business, meaning into education, I don't think I would still be in the professional beauty industry. So what got me to fall in love with hairdressers with this industry, was students education. I love, love, love students.

[A]

Why? Why do you give it a.

[B]

You know, they have beginner's luck, which basically means that they don't know it won't work. I mean, I can walk into my school with the stupidest idea, and they're like, yeah, let's do it. And I just love that energy. I love that attitude.

[A]

Like, what? Like, what's a dumb idea that you wound up incorporating any.

[B]

Okay, philanthropy, you know, fundraising. Hey, you know, there's a soup kitchen down the street. I think we can make a difference. You know, why don't we have a bake sale? Why don't we do a car wash and raise some money? And, you know, you say that to professionals who are receiving a paycheck, they're like, I ain't gonna do that. Students are like, we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it. And I just love that energy. I love that energy every single day.

[A]

Where are you from and what'd your folks do? And how much of this crazy, bottled up passion do you figure came from? Whatever the answer to that is.

[B]

Born and raised in Southern California, went to high school in Southern California. But while I was in high school, a senior, my parents moved to Utah, and I talked them into letting me stay back. And so as senior year in high school, not that I really attended, but I was enrolled. And because I barely, and I mean barely graduated from high school, not one day of college, and barely graduated from high school, but they let me stay behind, and I had an apartment and a job and a car and. But yeah, I got that work ethic from my parents, you know, eight kids in the family. And so where were you? Number six? And so we were raised needing to know how to do everything from cooking to cleaning to our own laundry to gardening.

[A]

Did you guys have any money?

[B]

Would you all let them do you know? My father was an engineer. Worked for Northrop Aircraft. And so, you know, we were okay. But eight kids is a lot of kids, and I absolutely got that work ethic. You know, I was kind of laughing earlier when you said something along the lines of that I. I don't know, that I hustle or that I. You said something that I'm an overachiever or something like that. Yeah, I was that. So, you know, I was like the.

[A]

Youngest and a stalker. Just.

[B]

Oh, we're gonna get to that story. Because you. I didn't. I didn't find you Cause you're famous with dirty jobs. I found you because. Because of your notoriety with the trades. I mean, that's what attracted me to you. But, yeah, I was that overachiever. So I was like the youngest Eagle Scout in that district, you know. Oh, yeah. At 13, 14.

[A]

What's the most important Scout law?

[B]

Oh, gosh, no.

[A]

Trustworthy law.

[B]

Trustworthy, exactly. All of those things. And I'm all those things.

[A]

Yeah, but you must choose. Obedient, cheerful, thrifty.

[B]

You have to choose one. They didn't tell me that.

[A]

Yeah, well, guess what? You're. At a certain point.

[B]

Okay, you know what? Trustworthy.

[A]

We gotta make choices.

[B]

Trustworthy. My word is my word, so. And I think that's important. And I'm kind. I wrote a book, it's right in front of you, called Be Nice or Else. So Be Kind or Else.

[A]

It's a fascinating title. It really is. You found a way to threaten somebody with an exclamation point and some cheery font.

[B]

Well, you know what's so funny is it was called Be Nice, and Larry King offered to write the foreword for the book. And he's like, but I want you to call it Be Nice. I couldn't sell that. It's got to be Be Nice or Else. That's my Larry King not bad impersonation.

[A]

Not bad.

[B]

So he's the one who added the or else part of it. And, you know. But the or else is not a threat. It's like, be nice or be miserable. Be nice or be a horrible parent.

[A]

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[B]

Although he did say in his foreword, do this or I'll kill you. And people are like, he did read the foreword. People are like, you didn't edit that? I'm like, no, I'm not going to edit that. Larry wrote that. That's a good thing.

[A]

How did you meet Larry King?

[B]

You know, his wife, which I think was wife number seven.

[A]

His wife. That's funny.

[B]

I know, I know. I grew up with her. She was a good friend of mine. And then what happened was modern Salaam. I started my own podcast 30 years ago. So the term podcast didn't even exist. And so my interviews went out once a month on a cassette. T. You might have to explain to people what that even is.

[A]

Well, I think instead I'll just explain to people that what you've been doing is this a kind of love letter to philanthropy. The podcast is called Masters, and you had some pretty famous people on. But you really don't get into anything other than why they give a damn and what they do with their fortunes in many cases, or what they were doing before they had a fortune. And that's, you know, shame on me for not knowing about it. But once I realized you were a stalker who had means and actually did find me, I did poke around and I did Listen to you. It was Vidal Sassoon. Your very first one.

[B]

Very first one.

[A]

And you still have that out. Like people can go listen to that.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I re. Release him. So I have a pretty incredible library going back 30 years, and a lot of these people aren't even alive today, including Vidal Sassoon. So be able to have Betty White and.

[A]

A few others, and I guess Larry King.

[B]

Larry King and Fran Drescher and Marie Osmond. But as you and I were talking at lunch, my purpose in interviewing these major celebrities was not about their entertainment career. It was about their philanthropy work. It was Children's Miracle Network Hospitals. Is that baby of Marie Osmond. And that's what I want to know about. Why would you start that? You.

[A]

I mean, I'm just going to say this out loud, Chuck, so you can make a note, but he's going to hook us up. I want to talk to Marie. Oh, okay. I Met Marie in 1991 when she came on the QVC cable shopping channel. She had a line of dolls. And you know my whole history with dolls, Chuck. Unfortunately, I do. Porcelain, inflatable and otherwise. But.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

But. But here's the thing about Marie. She is given or raised for Children's Miracle Network. Guess how much money would you think she's raised? And remember, she's Marie Osmond. Yeah, she can raise some money, I'm sure. A couple hundred million, maybe more. A billion. Tell them 1.

[B]

9 billion.

[A]

9 billion. She's the craziest freaking.

[B]

They have raised $90 billion, which supports 170 hospitals and 10 million children a year going to a Children's Miracle Network hospital.

[A]

So we all know about St. Jude, which is like, what are they even in that network? Is that one of. Or that's.

[B]

They're not in the same network, but St. Jude's is one hospital, and they do incredible work. But this amazing mission that Maria's been on for years, and that's what you know. Of course I'm drawn to somebody's music and their talent and their shows and their movies and everything. But actually, my mom said that how she got me to eat breakfast when I was a little kid was to tell me that that's what Walt Disney ate for breakfast. So I was always attracted to celebrities and famous people who did good things with their. With their fame and with their money, because there's a lot of famous people. Let's talk about it.

[A]

I mean, that's.

[B]

That you don't care what they have to say, but.

[A]

Very true. But I'm not Sure. How you're gonna make the link between Walt Disney's philanthropy and, you know, bacon and eggs or grits or whatever. Like, where's the breakfast connection to good.

[B]

To do what my heroes were doing. Ah, yeah. But my heroes were, again, celebrities who were doing good things with their money and with their celebrity and their fame. So that was my draw to Larry King with the Larry King Cardiac Foundation. My draw to Magic Johnson and the incredible work that he does with his foundation. Fran Drescher and Cancer Schmancer and Betty White with Morris Animal Foundation. You know, my gosh, everything to do with animals. So working with Betty White was just, you know, best day of my life. I think I was telling you at lunch, you know, on the video we shot together, she called me a slut. And that was the best day of my life.

[A]

You got to feel good about that.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

Coming from maybe the most famous slut of the 70s.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Sue Ann Nivens passing that on to you?

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

You know, somebody said something so nice about my mom. Actually, I think it was me. No, but she. My mom wrote every day for 60 years before she got a bestseller. And now she's got like four of them. She's 87. Wow. And she's kind of occupied this weird role of America's grandmother, I've heard. But it's really like Irma Bombeck meets Betty White. Okay, well, and so, I mean, tell me about. I don't even know where to go with you. It's just so schizophrenic. Betty's so interesting to me. But still with Larry, like, what don't people know about that guy that you would like them to remember?

[B]

Think about who this man was and who he sat across from, who he got to interview. And actually, so how I got connected was modern Salon magazine Industry magazine, called me the Larry King of the beauty industry. And Larry read that and called me up and said, you need to come to my house so I can teach you how to be Larry King. Which was wonderful.

[A]

Just out of the blue, he calls you because he sees you referred to.

[B]

As Larry King of the beauty industry.

[A]

That is so interesting. Why would he do that?

[B]

To make sure that I was representing him. Well, I guess. I don't know. But I did go and tell you the truth. We actually sat in his bedroom, and that's where he sat down and tutored me and gave me some pointers on how to interview people. And it was incredible.

[A]

Like what, what was the best bit of advice he gave?

[B]

Oh, he says I told you, like, I have all these notes sitting in front of me that I over prepare whether I'm interviewing somebody. I over prepare. And now you're interviewing me. And what he said, I'm not over prepared. Wynne. Oh, well, you got a talent and a skill here that I hope to have.

[A]

I have my approach, you have yours.

[B]

Well, what Larry said was, never assume that you got the final answer. So he said, just show up with one question, and that one question can lead you a second and a third and a fourth and go down all kinds of different paths and journeys based on that one question that you asked. So just keep on. Whereas probably when I interviewed Vidal Sassoon, I probably asked the first question that I had scripted and he answered it and probably wanted to expand it. I said, no, we have to go on to the second question. I don't know.

[A]

But look, that's the old. The biggest enemy of a good plan is a perfect plan. And look, if you want to conduct an interview, sure, there are a couple different ways to do it. If you want to have a conversation. There's only one. Two ears, one mouth, and my Larry King story. I did a show a couple times. The first time I was on, he was. I mean, it was odd. You know, Dirty Jobs had just been a hit, and we were just kind of feeling each other out, and we got through the first segment, and during the commercial, he's like looking at notes and stuff and talking to people in the control room. And he looks at me and says, you like baseball? And I said, yeah, man, I like baseball. He goes, Dodgers? I said, no, I'm an Orioles guy. He goes, mike Cuellar, Boog Powell, Mark Blanger, Bobby Gritch, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Merv Rettman, Paul Blair, Andy Echebaron. What do you mean you're a fan? To what degree? And I'm like, oh, well, I know all these cats. And, you know, my grandmother was the biggest Orioles fan ever. Larry and I start having a completely unscripted conversation during a commercial break.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But with so much enthusiasm that he just completely misses his cue to come back. So now we're back live and you're still talking about. He's going on and on about Dave McNally hitting a grand slam, slam, home run in 1969. He was a pitcher, for crying out loud, Mike. You know how weird that is for a pitcher to hit a home run, much less a grand slam? And I'm like, larry, man, we're back on the air. Oh, welcome back. We're Talking about baseball with Mike Rowe. Dirty jobs gone. Right, he's gone. But I learned a lot from him, just from watching. And he did the nicest thing for me when he decided to retire. He told his boss if he had a brain in his head, the job would be mine.

[B]

Get Mike. Wow.

[A]

Didn't work out, obviously. They didn't even ask. But Larry King gave me incredible.

[B]

Dang, that's pretty incredible.

[A]

Ridiculous. Ridiculous. And I only saw him once again after that. He interviewed me in his, I guess in his home where he was doing his final episodes. But talk about a guy who was doing what he was supposed to be doing, you know, are you doing what you're supposed to be doing?

[B]

Yeah, I believe that I am. That's how I, I feel every day. I'm 66. I wake out of, jump out of bed at 4am every day with incredible purpose. I wake up two minutes before the alarm goes off. Yeah. So I feel like I am because I landed in an industry where I have that opportunity to truly make a difference. Hairdressers rule this planet. And I have thousands reasons of why I believe that that's true.

[A]

Well, let's go ahead and start somewhere near the top of the list. I doubt we'll get to a thousand, but that's a bold claim. Hairdressers rule the planet. How so?

[B]

Well, as I said, I'm not a hairdresser. I've never been a hairdresser. Actually, I was the youngest recipient of the lifetime achievement award from the North American Hairdressing Association. So go figure. Again, that overachiever. Again, not even a hairdresser, but okay, well, we'll go back to Betty White. So here I'm working with all these Paul Mitchell schools. We want to make a difference. We're raising millions of dollars and we wanted something that benefited animals. So we were trying to check every box and I don't mean it that coldly, you know, check the box of something for veterans and first responders, something for. In the fight against sex trafficking, something in the, in along with children's hospitals. While we hadn't done anything with animal related animal health or rescue. And somebody brought up, you know, well, you know, Betty White is the president of this organization called Morris Animal Foundation. Go get Betty White. And so that was the conversation, you know, who can get to Betty White? You know, well, I'll call her manager, I'll call her agent, I'll call her. And I'm like, I'll call her frickin hairdresser. Right. They all came up empty. I had the hairdresser on the phone because, again, I know everybody in the professional beauty industry. And literally within a week, I had Betty White on the phone and she said, yeah, absolutely. And we then shot a video together and did several events together over a period of number of years, you know, donated over a million dollars to that cause and that organization through the fundraising that the Paul Mitchell schools had done. And exactly at the same time, same thing with Dolly Parton. Somebody said, you know, we love Imagination Library. The fact that she's putting books into the hands of these marginalized kids, kids who are underserved, you know, who can get to Dolly Parton, win call her hairdresser. Okay. Same thing. Immediately got her.

[A]

Did you know who her hairdresser was?

[B]

Oh, the beauty industry is very, very small when it comes to that. Not only that, the beauty industry is very, very generous. I have friends that work in other industries who say that the higher up they go, the more disillusioned they are by what they find at the top. That people at the top maybe aren't generous and they don't want to share their trade secrets and they don't want to mentor that next generation. Don't steal. My position in the professional beauty industry is the exact opposite. You know, the people who are at the top, whether it's a Vidal Sassoon or a Jean Paul dejorie or some famous hairdresser. And I know most of them. Yeah, you call them and say, hey, I have a brand new student who's struggling in school. Would you please get on the phone? I'll do it right now. And they'll get on the phone and they'll be on the phone for hours. And that's not just pie in the sky. That's a legitimate thing that happens on a regular basis. Which is why I fell in love with the beauty industry that many years ago, and I'm still its biggest fan.

[A]

Tell me, guys, if this is at all relatable. You're eating responsibly, just like you have been for years. And you're exercising every day, just like you have been for years. But somehow, in spite of your best efforts at the gym and your many sacrifices at the dinner table, you've managed to put on £15 and you're tired all the time. If that's you, you're an excellent company and I feel your pain. And if you've decided to do something about it, you'll have yet another thing in common with the thousands of men who are currently pushing back against their own rebellious metabolisms with mDrive boost and burn. EmDrive uses the highest quality ingredients. They make their products here in America and they've been around for almost 20 years and they have thousands of satisfied customers. Look, if you're older than you've ever been but still exercising and still watching what you eat but not getting the results you used to, it's not your fault. It's just the way life goes. You can fight back though, keep making good choices. But try mdrive Boost and Burn and see the results for yourself. It's a great way to get yourself back on Track. That's EmDrive. M like Mike Drive for Men dot com. How many people are providing for their families today as the result of mastering this skill?

[B]

You know, I'm glad that you asked that because you know, that's what people, that's what I want people to know. That usually the people who are attracted to the professional beauty industry, not always, but the majority of them, majority are women. A lot of them could be the breadwinners for their family, whether it is they're a single mom. So for them to be able to have that flexibility, first of all, they don't have the opportunity to maybe invest in a four year university and go into that debt and have that educational opportunity or educational experience. So for them to be able to have the experience within our industry and within a year or less they're through school and then once they graduate, you know, they say have scissors, will travel. Sure, yeah. So you know, work anywhere and but for them to have the flexibility to be able to say, well, I'm going to work from 9 to 3, I need to be home at 3 o' clock for my kids. I need to have the flexibility with that huge, big advantage for the professional beauty industry. And so yeah, we attract, you know.

[A]

Where I came from.

[B]

No.

[A]

Are you old enough to remember Paladin?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe not.

[B]

Wait, I'm older than you, aren't I?

[A]

Yeah, a couple years.

[B]

Well, he said that pretty freely, didn't he? Yeah, you are older than me.

[A]

Paladin was a TV show on in the, I guess it was the 60s, but it was called Half Gun Will Travel. Okay, so some clever person in your industry basically plagiarized an old hit show.

[B]

Well, I was recently at a big hair show, big convention and I was there as a speaker.

[A]

You mean a show for people with big hair or a large hair show?

[B]

Clarify. Large hair show. So lots and lots of hairdressers attending this educational event and I was a speaker. So Before I went on stage, they were like, hey Win, we want to introduce you to somebody. So they take me down the hall, they take me into this classroom. It was a hands on classroom for haircutting. So you walk in and there's 100 mannequin heads all set up, you know, ready to be used for this class. Class hadn't started yet. They take me to the very front of the class, introduce me to this hairdresser. She's 85 years old, been doing hair since she was 14 years old. Right. But first of all, there she is, still at the front of the class, still engaged. I mean, I know some 18 year olds who already know it all. So here's this 85 year old woman, like still engaged and in love with the professional beauty industry. And I had this conversation. I mean, not only did she raise all of her kids, you know, she said she had several grandchildren who are now hairdressers and now they're raising their families. They're the breadwinners and they love their careers and have the financial resources to love life and to be entrepreneurs, to go out on their own. It was just this phenomenal story that she had because this many years as a hairdresser built this empire with her family all based on hairdressing.

[A]

How much of what you do is focused on debunking challenging stereotypes or stigmas or myths or misperceptions around the industry? And as you think about your answer, I'm asking because I know that a lot of vocational skills have been used as cautionary tails. Right, right. Go here, borrow this, do that, or else you're gonna wind up turning a wrench or welding or cutting somebody's hair.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is that a thing in your world?

[B]

It is a thing. I think it's always been a thing. But the good news is that's turning around. You know, hairdressers are put on a, on a pedestal. They can become celebrities in their own right. And so, you know, that is good news that has happened. But I think we will always, any anybody in the trade is going to have that stigma that we have to battle.

[A]

But okay, so how do you battle it? Like, what are the facts on your side? Like, if we talk about what a person can, like, is it a money thing, is it a flexibility thing? Like, what does the industry most offer that you think is most.

[B]

You know, you could probably answer this better than I can, but, you know, I think it was, you're raised to believe you're going to go to college. That's the golden ticket. You're going to go to college, and that's what your parents wish for you. I always had this philosophy about why I love students coming to cosmetology, coming to one of my schools again, if you choose a four year college, mom and dad, hey, mom, I'm going to college. Good for you. By the way, mom and dad, I'm going to party for the first three years. I'm going to blow through your money. I'm going to change my mind about 20 times and change my degree. And mom and dad are still like, good for you. Good for you. You made the right choice. Mom and dad, I want to be a hairdresser. That's not necessarily good news for mom and dad. And so oftentimes when students sign up for my school, and again, it's not always, but this can be the case on occasion that mom and dad are not supportive of that. And so these students that sign up for my school, they have a lot to, to overcome. They have a lot of naysayers, including sometimes mom and dad and friends and family who are trying to talk them out of their fantasy. Not because they're trying to. They think that they're giving good advice, you know, choose differently. So not only do they have to prove a bunch of people wrong that, yes, I did make the right decision to do this, but they have to do it. They don't have four years to prove it. They gotta do it in a year or less. And that also means that maybe they're not there with mom and dad's financial support. So we already know they're not there with mom and dad's vote of confidence and moral support. Sometimes it's without mom and dad's financial support as well. So when I have a student in my school, man, they are focused, they are serious, they are engaged. And I think you read any book on how to be successful, every book is going to teach you follow your heart. You show me one hairdresser, one barber that was not following their heart. They chose this because they have a passion for this. And some of them, since they were little kids, this is what they want to do, you know, After Covid, do you know how many second and third career people signed up for our schools?

[A]

That was my next question, actually.

[B]

Well, because they. That mass exodus that everybody talked about, you know, I hated that job. There's no way, you know, I see that Covid was like, God sent everybody to the room, you know, go to your room, take a timeout. And when people came out of that timeout, they're like, I'm not going back to that career. I hated that job. I hated my life, you know, in the beauty industry. I don't. I don't know too many hairdressers that don't love their life. Monday through Friday, they say hairdressers go to work every single day with the intention of having fun. I don't know too many people who. Who have that belief system, who have that sentiment.

[A]

And so do you remember the movie Shampoo?

[B]

Of course. Love that. Yeah.

[A]

See? So you are old enough to remember Paladin a little bit. Yeah, yeah, no, that. You know, I watched that a few years ago, actually.

[B]

Shampoo.

[A]

Yeah. I was in the middle of the night flicking around, watching that thing. And one of the questions that I asked myself at the time was, it's so interesting, the bond that forms between a hairdresser and the customer and how quickly it deepens and how panicky a customer gets when their hairdresser is going to be away for two weeks and there's an event coming up. You know, it's easy to poke a little bit of fun at that because, look, full disclosure. I'm the guy who bought the Flowbe in 1988.

[B]

Please tell me you didn't.

[A]

Look, dude, you're bald. I'm not going to take any crap from you, but I'm telling you, I literally bought the Flowbe because I am cheap. And when I realized the Flowbe wasn't really doing the job, I went back to my guy Frank, who flew a bomber in the Korean War, and he had a little barbershop where people actually sang, and there were nudies up on the wall, and I sat there for $4, and he cut my hair. So you're talking to a guy who never assigned much value. Full disclosure. But much later in my life, when I wrote that Facebook post about that woman who cut my hair in North Carolina who gave me so much crap, she was so sassy, and she had three jobs, and that really did make me think differently about, you know, the importance of that trade. So we started offering those scholarships through our program. And I think if I got the timeline right, that's. That's roughly when you started stalking me.

[B]

Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much. Because, yeah, I love this industry, and I want more heroes to back up the message that I've been delirious, that I've been sharing. I love that hairdressers do incredible things on the planet. But to answer the question, why this incredible relationship between clients and their hairdresser? I mean, look, at it this way. It's cradle to grave. You know, there's, well, nothing. Well, there's a brand new baby and it's the kids, you know, I mean, I've got a book with my first curl that my mom took me to a hairdresser, and they, you know, snipped it off, and it's still there. So I had proof that I had hair at one day, you know, and then it's the toddler's first haircut, and then it's the prom, and then it's the, Then it's the wedding. Most important day of your life. Who needs to be there? Your hairdresser. And then there are all kinds of different monumental events that happen. And then it's the funeral. You know, my brother who became a hairdresser who went to my school, you know, he was the one that did my mom's hair, you know, two years ago.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, she passed two years ago.

[B]

She passed two years ago at 96. Which, by the way, I love it that you. I love it that you interview your mom for your podcast. That, that one, that one really warmed my heart. So good for you. You're. You're a good son.

[A]

I am a mama's boy.

[B]

I, I, I will shout that from the rooftops.

[A]

I make no apologies for it, but I, I think it's terrific that you. She was 96.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, Danny DeVito worked in a salon.

[B]

I knew he was a hairdresser. So was Fran Drescher. There's, there's several that were hairdressers. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And Danny actually wound up being hired in the local mortuary to take care of those clients. I wonder, I mean, is there an element of, like the, the bartender slash confessor? You know, I mean, like, to. Do people seem to really confide in their.

[B]

There's absolutely that. In fact, I have a friend who's a psychiatrist who says that he really got into the professional beauty industry, meaning he wanted to research and come and do trainings and be connected, because he had a client who was on his couch, whatever, and he was giving him advice, and he said, I better ask my hairdresser about this advice. Meaning he was gonna take his hairdressers advice over his psychiatrist's advice. So he thought, you know, I need to connect more with hairdressers to find. Why are they more trustworthy or trusted than I am?

[A]

Well, because you're inherently trusting them from the jump. And look, we can assign whatever value we want to our appearance, but obviously, in this society, that Assignation is significant. So you're already trusting them with a part of your vanity, a part of your identity. And as time goes on, the hair keeps growing, man. It's so interesting. It just keeps coming back in your.

[B]

Nose and your ears.

[A]

Everywhere, everywhere. And so now suddenly it's like a little trim is not enough. I need wax. Bring in the wax, man.

[B]

There's another reason for that, though. So it's not just. Yes, it's the trust. And your vanity, as you just said, is in their hands. But they're touching you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, I mean, there's not too many professions where you touch your customers. I mean, doctors touch their customers. But you don't love it. Yeah. You don't love it when they touch you.

[A]

And also, isn't it, you know, sharp objects around your eyes?

[B]

Trust.

[A]

Trust. My friends at the Marine Corps Scholarship foundation provide more than $10 million in scholarship every year to nearly 3,000 children of Marines. They're an extraordinary resource. And because this month is National CTE Month, that's Career and Technical Education Month, the MCSF has asked me to make sure you guys know that millions of dollars have been set aside for children of Marines pursuing careers in the skilled trades, from health sciences to mechanics, information technology, cnc, manufacturing, welders, electricians, down the list it goes. This covers everything. And these CTE pros, they're entering what I think is the golden age of the trades right now. There's never been a better time to master a skill that's in demand. And the Marine Corps Scholarship foundation is meeting that demand. And incidentally, it doesn't really matter what your career path is. These guys can pay for training or certification for any pursuit. So find out if you qualify. Because right now, today, the opportunities and the skilled trades really are extraordinary. If you're the son or daughter of a Marine, if your GPA is 2.0 or better, and if you can demonstrate financial need, congratulations. You are eligible. Check them out. Mcsf.org apply that's mcsf.org apply.

[B]

But when a hairdresser or a skin therapist or a nail technician. Even with a nail technician, I mean, with a hairdresser, they're standing behind you and they're looking at you through the mirror. Yeah. They'll spin you around and they'll be face to face with you. But imagine a nail technician, you're sitting that close to them, they're holding your hands, and you're. You're inches away from their face having this conversation. That's a pretty. Pretty intimate relationship. So, of course, There's a lot of trust building, and you better believe that's part of the training that they receive. And that's my next question.

[A]

Well, how do you do that?

[B]

How do you.

[A]

You know, you got a room full of people. I'm assuming the preponderance are female.

[B]

The majority. You know, we get a lot of. We have a lot of students who are male. You know, sometimes, especially in the barbering business, might attract more male than female. Not that we don't have female barbers who are going through our school. And I know some very, very famous female barbers who do incredibly well.

[A]

So what's actually the difference between a hairstyle?

[B]

It's a different license, and it's also different services. So barbers don't necessarily do hair color. You know, barbers are doing, you know, shaves and other services that they provide that. That hairdressers are not providing. So it's. There is some crossover in the service that they provide.

[A]

But I'm interested, too, in the licensure and the certificate. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I've seen some certifications that seem like they might be barriers. You know, certain. Like braiding operations I've read about in the south in particular. Right. With women of color. And, you know, they can make a good living doing this and they're good at it. But the state of Georgia wants 20 grand or whatever they want. Right, Right. So, I mean, your world, you're operating in states where certifications are required and you're training people, and you can't do what you do without the training. So where do you. How do you think about where the line ought to be drawn between your job of training a competent tradesperson in this vocation with entrepreneurship and the right to work and opportunities?

[B]

I think there's a safety and sanitation element that we need to consider. And so, you know, people who are not receiving legitimate training, and that's not even considered nor required. I think that that can put the public at risk if they're not trained to use proper tools and sanitation and all of that stuff. And so. But, yeah, our industry has been known to carve out certain sectors. You know, so maybe it's for braiding where you don't really need a license for that. Of course, I'm not saying that you don't need it, because I don't know. I know. Who knows? But I don't know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But. And it's different from state to state, but, you know, should hairdressers receive that training and be regulated and have certification and required training in certain aspects of it. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Okay. How many, if you had to guess, over 25 years has John Paul Mitchell trained?

[B]

Well, you know, gosh, it's in the hundreds of thousands, and yet we enroll between 10 to 12,000 students a year between our Paul Mitchell schools. And we're just one brand. There's, you know, other amazing brands out there. We're the largest in cosmetology and barbering education, but, you know, but that's quite a few. But still, even though there were graduating that many, the last time I heard, you told me that facts don't matter and I could just make stuff up. So I didn't say that, but I didn't mean to not let the truth get in the way of making a good point here. No, I recently. So if somebody could, you know, checks over here, he'll say, what did he say that's not true? No, I heard that 89,000 salon position went unfilled last year.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And. And statistically, over the next 10 years, there's a 7% increase in opportunity, growth opportunity, job opportunity within the professional beauty industry, which is higher than a lot of professions.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I mean, look, people.

[B]

Chuck, I have data on that one. I've got it right here. Dude.

[A]

Putting it in right now.

[B]

Yeah, I got it.

[A]

Well, minutes before we started rolling, I asked Win, what could a decent stylist with a decent work ethic expect to hit the ground earning? And you were like, well, look, I don't have an exact answer, and you clearly wanted one. So you called some guy named Ryan who happens to have your last name. Is he your nephew?

[B]

He's my nephew. Again, I'm surrounded by people smarter than me, even from my own family, so that's good news.

[A]

So Ryan's answer, I think, was super interesting. He said based on the data, it's looking like a person could earn high 50s, mid-60s working 27 hours a week. Yeah, that's the interesting part. To me, in 2025, I think blue collar and white collar are over. I think the color of collars is just bullshit, honestly, thankfully. And I think the 40 hour work week is gone too. People need to make a living based on the time they have, the skills they possess, and whatever the market will give in between. And it feels like that's what your industry can do. You want to work 27 hours a week, you want to work 18, you want to work 60? I mean, obviously I can double 60 if I double 27 and say, you can be making an easy six figures, if you're working full time in your industry right out of. Yes, you could, right out of school.

[B]

And the good news is there's no ceiling. There's no, like, haircut pricers that are out there saying, sorry, you're charging too much for your haircut.

[A]

Except for the market.

[B]

Right. You're right. We're here in la, and maybe that's a little different. I can give you names of hairdressers who are charging $1,500 for a haircut, and they're booked weeks and months in advance. Yeah. And guess who decided that they wanted to charge that much? They did. And nobody ever said, no, you can't do that.

[A]

Well, I mean, supply does have a way of finding demand and vice versa. So, yes, there's a market for $1,500 haircuts. Most people listening don't understand that and will probably kind of guffaw a little bit, but it's a market and it's real.

[B]

Well, can I tell you something? I'm actually in the pet grooming industry as well.

[A]

You cast a wide net, brother.

[B]

I know. I told you that. Overachiever. You know, when I was a drug addict, I was a really good drug addict. I was a good one. I'm an overachiever.

[A]

How bad did it have you for?

[B]

About five years.

[A]

Yeah. What was your drug of choice?

[B]

Meth.

[A]

Really? How long are we talking?

[B]

I've been clean 23 years. Wow. Yeah.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Couldn't have been easy.

[B]

No, not at all. I'm grateful. I'm super, super grateful that that is my story. Because I know that. Because I do have a bit of a stage and a platform that by being transparent, that my story does help people and save people.

[A]

And you share that all the time. I didn't know. Forgive me, because unlike you, I don't have a page full of notes in front of me. I'm interviewing you, man.

[B]

I'm the one who's provide notes for you next time.

[A]

I can't believe you have notes about me. It says Mike Rowe at the top of your page. Like you researched me in order to be interviewed.

[B]

Well, that's how I found out that you interviewed your mom. And that was another reason why, like, you know, I like this guy. Cause I had an amazing mom, you know, and we all need amazing moms. But there came a time in my life where I knew that my mom needed an amazing son, you know?

[A]

When was that time? About 23 years ago.

[B]

Before that, actually before that. And, you know, my mom was my date to everything. Everybody's like, you know, betty White's sitting over there. Why don't you put yourself at Betty White's table or Dolly Parton's table? Because I'm with my mom at my table. I love that. And even at 95 years old, she fly home after an event with me, and my siblings would call me up and say, don't. You know, mom? That was it. That was her last trip. And I'd call her next year. Mom, want to go? Yep, I'm ready to go.

[A]

What was her name?

[B]

Jean. Yeah. Amazing lady. And by the way, I talked to her when I first got into business 40 years ago. I was a year in business, and I talked her into quitting her job. She had a job. She was a circulation manager at a local newspaper. And I talked her into quitting that job and coming to work with me. And then get this. So my mom, at probably like, 85, she leaves me this voice message, you know, son, I really need to talk to you. She's never left me that message. I'm like, mom, what.

[A]

What.

[B]

What is going on? Well, you know, I don't know. I've been thinking maybe it's time for me to retire. Mom, you can retire. You know, and my siblings, they're all jealous that I got to have that relationship with my mom. They all got to experience. Experience mom as this amazing mom. And she was. But I got to experience her as this incredible businesswoman that was just alive with culture.

[A]

What did she do for you exactly, on the business side?

[B]

Financial aid. So she helped, you know, the students, but she was like the mom in the school. You know, she was the grandma in the school that my students could rely on, because the majority of my students were from out of state, so they had moved to attend my school. So they were on their own without their parents. And so, yes, that was the lady who helped them finance and pay for their school and make their monthly payments on their education. But she was that beautiful culture. You know, she taught me about how a culture could really, really turn a business around. You know, a lot of cultures are very, very toxic. And it's just, I'm here for one thing, and that's just to get a paycheck. You're not going to get the best out of me. I'm here. You've engaged my time, but you haven't engaged my heart. You haven't engaged my loyalty. And my mom taught me otherwise.

[A]

Did she learn that Though, from business. From prior business or. Because, I mean, how do you learn that from running a circulation department?

[B]

She learned that from just being a wonderful human. You know, she just knew to engage people. She just. You're gonna get me emotional here.

[A]

Well, look, all right, look, I'll just. In the spirit of violent, am I.

[B]

Gonna make you uncomfortable if I start crying here?

[A]

Probably like a baby, ma'. Am.

[B]

Because I do that all the time.

[A]

I don't care.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

No, my mom. I didn't appreciate the significance of this when I saw it. But like I said to you, she wrote every day for 60 years, right? And what she wrote about was engagement. She wrote about people. So she'd just be out and she, you know, she was a horse nut, and she'd see a cop on a horse. Cops on horses. It's amazing. And she'd walk up and, you know, she'd identify the horse and correctly guess its number of hands and weight and so forth. And a cop would be interested. And next thing you know, the cop gets off the horse, and my mom's interviewing him, right? And so she goes home and she writes 800 words on the cop she met on a horseback.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

It gets better. There's no publisher. There's no audience, per se. So what she does, she just puts it on the refrigerator, like on a magnet. And the next day, my dad takes it down and reads to me and my brothers, my mom's latest story. Then he takes it to church. He'll read it at church, you're stuck in the elevator, he'll read it to you, you're a stranger. And then you're sitting at Bob's Big Boy, just trying to have a meal, and some guy, my dad walks over, hey, have you heard the latest from Peggy Rowe? And he reads. So I grew up watching my dad read stories that my mom had written in a totally unsolicited way, simply because she was. She was just curious, right? So, you know, and my mom was never in business. She taught special ed. She didn't know anything about business, but man did. She understood what Gene understood. You know, if you're curious about people, they'll be curious about you. And then maybe you have a basis for something. Not an interview, a conversation.

[B]

And to me, that's a successful, healthy culture for profit. Seriously, if more bosses learned what your mom taught about how to engage people. Like, I remember a salon owner telling me a story that he hired this nail guru within the beauty industry to teach him. You know, my hairdressers are Making money. My nail department doesn't make any money. She's like, I'll fly up and spend the day with you and we'll figure this out. So he's giving her a tour and they're in the hairdresser and he's going up to every hairdresser. He knows them by name, he knows their kids names. How is the vacation to Hawaii? You know, is your husband recovering from that back surgery? Right. Goes into the nail department, doesn't know their names, knows nothing about them. And she's like, that's the reason why you're not engaged with your team. So that's what your mom taught. Just be curious. Be curious and talk to people and engage with people.

[A]

She didn't teach it, she just lived it.

[B]

Well, that's teaching.

[A]

That's a good answer.

[B]

Three ways you teach people by example, by example. By example.

[A]

For example.

[B]

No. There you go.

[A]

Did your mom understand and maybe your daughter who you mentioned over lunch, Sophia, Was it Sophia? You built a multi billion dollar brand over the things we're talking about now. Over curiosity, over connection, over trust, over have scissors, will travel. Did they understand that when you were doing it? Like, the enormity of it. I typically don't talk too much about money on this show, but it is important, I think, for people to understand that you killed it, dude. Like, I mean, you built something marvelous.

[B]

If you asked me about 90% of my industry and my company, I don't have the answer. I would have to ask somebody like, I called Ryan.

[A]

Yeah, poor Ryan.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Again, I told you. My favorite answer is I don't know, but I know, who knows? My point is, what I do know about is the importance of culture, the foundational. John Paul, my amazing partner. I mean, they couldn't even pay their own bills. He tells the story. He couldn't even pay his own bills yet for running the company, but will tell story after story of how they use their power and their influence to maybe pick up the check for a struggling mother who is there with all of her kids and can't pay his own bills, but he's going to pick up their check. And so it was just part of their philosophy. I know a lot of businesses that once they get down that line, down that road of, oh, we're profitable, but we haven't done a damn thing to make a difference. You know, we're consumers only. We consume, we consume oxygen, we consume trees, we consume the paychecks of our customers. But we've done nothing to be a contributor. You know, The Paul Mitchell Product Company. And. And that's how we started the Paul Mitchell schools, too. We're going to start with culture. We don't have a cutting curriculum. We have no idea how we're going to teach you how to cut hair, but we're going to teach you how to be a good human being. We're going to teach you the value of being nice and of communication and then treating each other with respect. And like all of that was far more important to us. And I. You know, maybe I'm taking a risk in saying this, but I'm pretty confident in saying. And if you ask any of my graduates, ask the 100,000 graduates of my schools, of course they'll brag. Yeah, I learned how to cut hair, but what I really loved about that school was the culture. That's what they're going to say.

[A]

Does that get more important to you as you get older?

[B]

Absolutely. As I get older and as I became a dad, you know, you just see the. You see the value.

[A]

Is it a legacy thing or is it a. That word makes me a little uneasy sometimes.

[B]

Legacy? Yeah.

[A]

Only because it just feels like little monuments you might build for yourself or to yourself. I don't know the exact etymology or definition, obviously, but I know the importance of feeling like you did something with your day. Some days you sleep better than others. Some days you see the needle move.

[B]

I heard somebody say that, you know, when people get in old age, there's three reasons of why they might die. One is, they lose money. It's expensive to get old. Two, they lose love. How many old people are in retirement homes with no visitors? Three, they lose purpose. And so I think to focus on purpose, you know, that's the legacy part of me. For me, that's what legacy would be like. Did I really make a difference in the lives of people? I'm sure it's cool that people say, gosh, I formed a company and I was able to create opportunities for people who are now multimillionaires. I'm sure that's super important. I love money. And people who say that they don't care to make money would lie about other things as well. I love money, you know, but as far as legacy, it's, you know, to really make a difference in people's lives. And, yeah, becoming a dad absolutely taught me that. Having the mom that I had taught me that. But you better believe age has taught me that. To be this old, that didn't come out well. But to be this old, yeah, I just want to Make a difference.

[A]

Give me the three again. Three reasons.

[B]

People, they lose money, they lose love. So relationships. And the third is purpose. What gets me out of bed in the morning is not that I'm running a successful financial aid department or that my IT department is running smoothly. I have people who are brilliant at that. They don't want me near that. They don't give me a key to my building. They don't want me watering the plants. But what they do rely on me is to make sure that this is a good place to work. You know, I think that there's three basic human needs. Number one, people need to feel safe. And I could go on and on about what that means. People need to feel that they belong. They say that 60% of people say, no one has my back, and half of them are married. So if we create a culture at work where people show up and they feel like they belong to something. I mean, people, they get that at church, they get that in other places, but how many of them actually get it at work? And the third basic human need. People need to have a purpose. The best way I know how to explain that is you could have two janitors working for the same elementary school. Same job, same salary, same everything. One has the attitude of, these little brats make a mess around here, and it's my job to clean it up. That's what they pay me to do. And the other one has the attitude of, it's my privilege. It's my opportunity to create a clean, educational learning environment for the next generation that's going to save this planet.

[A]

There was a study done years ago. I'll forget the name, but it tracked the lives of two identical twins. Two boys. And one of them both lost their parents at the same time. And one of them wound up on death row. The other wound up running an operation similar in scope and size to yours. And at the end of this documentary, it's just so powerful. The question is, to what do you attribute your current circumstance posed to each of the twins? And of course, the answer was identical. With parents like the ones I had, how could I have wound up anywhere else? Wow. You know, I hear versions of that. I hear people try and make sense out of different outcomes through same circumstances. Somebody asked Larry Ellison once to what he attributed his great success. And his answer, I loved it was, well, I had just the right amount of adversity. So I wonder, you know, I mean, when you look at, you know, seven siblings, when you look at whatever it was like growing up in Southern California by Way of Utah. You know, how did, if it did, how did adversity shape win clay ball?

[B]

Not a lot of adversity, a lot of expectations. Again, a really, really good work ethic. The adversity certainly didn't come from my upbringing, my family. You know, I found the adversity on my own. I sought that out myself. But again, zero regrets. You know, you and I have talked a lot about Gary Sinise.

[A]

Thanks for the hat, by the way.

[B]

My pleasure.

[A]

Gary Sinise Foundation. A hoodie. So Gary introduced one of the best people walking around.

[B]

We love that man. You better love that man. And I travel often with one of his ambassadors for the Gary Sinis Foundation, Cedric King, who's a double amputee and lost his legs stepping on an IUD in Afghanistan. And within 24 months of him losing his legs, he's running the Boston Marathon. And so his stories are incredible. But when I, when I. Oh, I know. When I interviewed him for my podcast, I asked him, I said, if you could go back and change that day, the day that you stepped on that bomb and lost your legs, would you go back and change that date? He said, absolutely not. He says, I probably would have ended up divorced. I probably would have ended up my two girls, probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with me. He says I was on the path of being a total jerk and losing my legs. Saved all that.

[A]

You know, Let me ask you this, this is personal. Don't answer if you don't want, but if I'm doing the math right, you got clean from the meth 23 years ago, correct? You've been in business with JP for.

[B]

25 years, you're doing the math, right?

[A]

All right, so for two years, I assume you're not in the closet with this. He must have known.

[B]

I don't know, that he knew I was pretty good at separating it functioning, you know, So I never mixed the two with work and with my drug addiction. I mean, it got, you know, pretty bad. I could have easily lost everything. Fortunately, and I'm just going to say it was by grace, one day I knew I was done and that was it.

[A]

During lunch you said, hey, you should interview jp. Would you be interested in that? Yeah. But is he more interesting than you?

[B]

He's a very interesting guy.

[A]

No, no, no. Is he more interesting than you? Oh, five years on the pipe, billion dollar empire, beautiful 13 year old girl, fantastic mother, giving workshops and speeches around the country, launching hundreds of thousands of careers, generating hundreds of billions of dollars for regular people who are Trying to put food on the table. He's more interesting than you.

[B]

You're being very generous.

[A]

Yeah, I am, but I mean it.

[B]

I'm blessed. I have a. I have a. I have a sweet life.

[A]

What do you want people to take from the book? And how long ago did you write it, by the way?

[B]

The book's been out for about 20 years. It's still. I think this is the 15th printing, so it's still going strong. Originally, the book started off just as an employee manual.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, it was. And it was actually the. The president of Southwest Airlines, Colleen Barrett, who said to me, you know, this should be a book, and if you make it into a book, I'll buy thousands of copies to give out to my team. And I said, cha Ching, I'll do it, you mercenary. By the way, I'm not a reader. I don't read. I wrote a book, but I don't read. I gather a lot of information. The way we're doing this right now, which is why I started my podcast. I was already asking people those questions because that's how I've always gained my knowledge, is by finding heroes and asking those questions.

[A]

Taylor was worried we're going to have another.

[B]

You'll edit this, right, Chuck?

[A]

You bet I will. We'll probably cut it into the open.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Keeping it real.

[B]

This is results of. We talking about my mom, so.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were going to say, this is what happens when you wax the inside of your nose.

[B]

No, we're still going to do that.

[A]

I thought you were going to say, these are the results of being on meth for 20 years.

[B]

Throw me under the bus without.

[A]

Man, I'm just so. I'm just so delighted this has happened. I really am so glad that I wandered into that salon in North Carolina.

[B]

So am I.

[A]

And listen to that girl's story. I don't. I mean, if you told me just a year ago that we were going to include in our scholarship for electricians and plumbers and steam fitters and shipbuilders, pipe benders and energy work and oil fields and so forth, cosmetology. I just said, man, you're on the meth. This is never going to happen. I'm not going to do that. Because, you know, a lot of what I wind up looking at is like, what is the country suffering from? And my first answer wasn't, you know, an abundance of bad haircuts. It's like, we're going to be okay. But, of course, what is the country really suffering from? It's suffering from people who have lost purpose, who have lost hope, who are struggling financially. Your big three, you know, and to be able to find those things through the mastery of a skill, any skill. Any skill. You know, I don't mean to make trouble for four year schools. I went to a four year school. My liberal arts education served me pretty well. It was, you know, awfully affordable at the time. But I, you know, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I was wrong to not think about your industry and you were right to stalk me. I'm still not clear how you found me because you sure as hell didn't call Frank, my long dead barber, for a reference.

[B]

I'm very, very good at finding the right people and getting to them.

[A]

I mean, really, how did you do it? Who did you?

[B]

Well, fortunately, again, I sent a lot of DMs, I called a lot of people that I knew, very influential people. And then what happened was I found out that I was the keynote speaker at an event, that you were the keynote speaker. Speaker a couple years before I was in Las Vegas. And so I, once I found that out, I called the organizers. Yeah, this is the person who booked. And so that person called, called Mary. Called your people and. And that's how we got to each other. No. And then I had to back it up. But, you know, I was, I was a good guy. I was very kind in reaching out to your people and offered Mary free facials and all kinds of things, you.

[A]

Know, look, she'll take you.

[B]

No, I was telling you that I, you know, there's, you know, probably a good 20 of my daughter's teachers over the years who get their haircuts and facials at my school. And the other parents are like, are you trying to bribe the teachers? I'm like, of course I am. You better believe it when I drag Marie Osmond over to the table of my daughter's teacher, you know, because she's a huge Marie Osmond fan and there's Marie at her table. And, and my teacher turned to me and said, you, daughter is getting an A tomorrow. We do what we gotta do.

[A]

What did you say? Early on, hairdressers rule the world. Was that something like that.

[B]

Hairdressers make things happen. You know, if you want to get something happen, go to a hairdresser. You want to find the best surgeon in town, call a hairdresser. You want to get to the news broadcaster, call a hairdresser. Because they all engage hairdressers. And so whenever I want to get something. You want to raise money, that's the thing. You want to raise money. Make a difference. Call hairdresser. So when I tell you that my Palm Mitchell schools have raised and donated $27 million, that's not because we're getting thousand dollar donations or a million dollar grants. Our average donation is 5 or $10 because it's very grassroots. Oh, get this. My school in Orlando to raise money came up with this idea to do a topless car wash. And so they did signs all over town, topless car wash. So of course everybody showed up. But what it meant was they didn't wash the top of your car. If you wanted the top wash, you had to pay extra. Oh, get this. They raised $1,500 in the parking lot of the Paul Mitchell School.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah. Or it's bake sales, it's cut a thons, it's pet fashion shows. It's literally hundreds and hundreds of little fundraising events that my schools do on an annual basis. And again Today we're at 27 million. But that's not uncommon in our industry. You know, I mean, it's, we work with the Fred Jordan Mission here, it's at Skid Row Mission here in downtown LA. And three, four times a year I send 100 of my students who are there on Skid Row. And so everything's going on around them, but they're there cutting hair. That mission serves a thousand homeless people a year, or I'm sorry, 1,000 people a day. A day. And so they're there for, whether it's back to school. So they're there to get the kids groomed. You know, when a kid's not groomed, they're a target. They're bullied at school. Let's get them cleaned up before they start school.

[A]

And also, I mean, the distance between grooming, basic hygiene, decent clothes and self esteem, it's just so linked. There are no small things. A haircut is not a small thing if it's the thing that allows you to get to the interview.

[B]

I know so many hairdressers who literally are hitting the streets on a regular basis to do hair for the homeless. I have a very famous, wealthy hairdresser friend who has a celebrity clientele like you wouldn't believe. But when the Tonys are going on, he does go to the after party. He's like, no, to be sober and to live my purpose. They're going to the party. He's hitting the streets to do hair for the homeless. Can I tell you a quick Story, please. So I interviewed this woman by the name of Sister Bonnie, a Catholic nun who wanted to become a hairdresser as a nun so that she could do hair for the homeless. So get this. She gets permission from the Catholic Church to enroll in beauty school graduates, opens up her salon, which she named the Pearly Gates Salon. It was located in a tiny bathroom of a shower facility for the homeless in downtown Cincinnati. And so I flew out there, spent a couple of days with Sister Bonnie, and she showed me this little tiny bathroom where she cut hair for seven years and did 10,000 homeless people. And get this, she said, win. I'm the only Catholic nun that can say I've been in the bathroom with 10,000 men. And they all came out smiling.

[A]

You ever been to a hair museum?

[B]

I have not. Oh, have you?

[A]

Taylor, what's her last name was Leila. Yeah, she passed away a couple years ago, but about 10 years ago.

[B]

I've heard about these museums. So it's like. Like famous hair of certain people. Okay, yes.

[A]

But, you know, once upon a time, like you mentioned earlier, you know, a little lock of your hair and a book.

[B]

I've got it.

[A]

Like entire histories. This used to, like, people had hair books in their homes in the 1700s. And Leila Calhoun Cahoon Cahill, she had, outside Independence, Missouri, not far from Harry Truman's house, this museum and like a strip mall. It was one of the most fascinating museums I've ever been in. I mean, there's Abraham.

[B]

So what's it.

[A]

Okay, it's famous people's hair.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then lineage. And it's like it was sort of a. It was a kind of 23andMe before there was any tech. Yeah, it was like genealogy. Yes. You know, people would pass it down in their family. Here's your great uncle's hair. Etc. Etc. Yeah. Anyway, you said something earlier that just made me think that there again, there are no small vocations. And we make things small sometimes that we don't understand. You know, maybe because they scare us or maybe just because it puffs our. Puffs us up. But, you know, wherever that thing was where we both spoke, you know, that was an acronym. And there was an organization under that I had never heard of but was terribly important and very relevant to people. We're there, and that's our world. You know, that's our world. These groups of people who care deeply and they live in their lanes. I appreciated the invite to your gala. And the reason I sent the video is because obviously I couldn't make it. And I felt bad, but.

[B]

Well, I have the dates for next year if you want to get that down while we got this on video.

[A]

Well, you met Mary. Have a chat with her. I'm sure we can work something out. And whether we can or whether we can't, if you're interested, I'm happy to return the favor on your podcast, if you'd have me.

[B]

Oh, are you kidding?

[A]

If you'd have me.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah. Did you do them long distance or in person or.

[B]

Whatever works.

[A]

All right. You're down south, right?

[B]

Like around a. I'm in. Down in Corona del Mar. You know, actually, pre. Covid. I did for that many years. 25 years. They were all in person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then once Covid hit, you had no choice.

[A]

Isn't it crazy?

[B]

But you know what? Also, technology improved. Because before back then, it was like one person sounded good and the other person did not sound good. Now you don't know the difference. Riverside platform. It's incredible. All right, well, it sounds great.

[A]

That's the other thing. And the final thought that I. That I really do love about your industry. Return to work. What are you talking about, man? That it never stops. Just because the salon's closed doesn't mean your people aren't coming out and making house calls. It was an amazing thing to watch. You know, there weren't a lot of silver linings during those days, but I do think it really showed us. You know, you adapt or you're done. You pivot or perish, you know, and so many people in your industry have pivoted. You built a hell of a thing, Wynt. Congratulations. The book is called Be Nicer Else. I think he means it. Although I doubt he's ever really actually hurt anybody. And where should people maybe go if they want to explore a career? Get started in one of your schools. There's bound to be a website.

[B]

Absolutely. Just PaulMitchell. Edu.

[A]

Edu. Excellent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anything you wish you would have said that you didn't. I'm looking at all your notes there.

[B]

I mean, we could talk more and more about your mom. Talking about moms.

[A]

Let's save that for yours, okay? I'd be honored to be a guest. What is it? The Masters.

[B]

Masters?

[A]

Me, Larry King, Betty White. Are you kidding?

[B]

I know.

[A]

I'll be there.

[B]

Nice lineup.

[A]

Thanks for not buying me lunch. You owe me one. This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile Sorry it went on so long but if it made you smile Then share your satisfaction in the way that people do take some time to go online. And leave us a review. I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge. But in this world the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review. Not four. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review and not three. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review. Definitely not two. All you got to do is leave a quick five star review.

[B]

We need five.

[A]

All you got to do is leave a quick Even if you hate it, five star. Especially if you hate it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

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