Podcast Summary: The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe

Episode 476: Michael Cadenazzi—The Department of War is Hiring

Date: March 24, 2026
Host: Mike Rowe
Guest: Michael Cadenazzi, Assistant Secretary of War for Industrial Based Policy

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging and energetic conversation between Mike Rowe and Michael Cadenazzi (ASW, Assistant Secretary of War for Industrial Based Policy). The discussion centers on the urgent national security, economic, and workforce challenges facing America's defense industrial base. Cadenazzi, a Navy veteran, entrepreneur, and now top Pentagon official, details his mission to revitalize skilled trades within the military-industrial complex, secure critical minerals, and foster innovative public-private partnerships.

Rowe and Cadenazzi tackle issues including the skilled trades gap, the importance of re-shoring manufacturing, the necessity of “metal independence,” and the massive demand for new talent in defense-related industries. The dialogue is frank, practical, and peppered with anecdotes, memorable analogies, and candid insights into how the Pentagon works. Both men share a passion for closing the skills gap and reinvigorating American manufacturing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Michael Cadenazzi and the Stakes at Hand

• Cadenazzi’s Background: Years in the Navy, then the private sector as an entrepreneur, now serving as ASW at the Pentagon.
• Scope of Responsibility: Oversees billions in investment for the Defense Industrial Base (DIB); leads workforce initiatives, rare earths policy, manufacturing modernization.
• Purpose for Appearing: Outreach to Microworks (Rowe’s foundation) to help bridge the skilled trades gap, strengthening U.S. national security.

“I have the best job in the Pentagon and at the best time. Truly, I am honored to be doing this.” — Cadenazzi [08:15]

Timestamp: [00:04]–[08:27]

2. Skills Gap and Workforce Crisis in American Industry

• The Numbers:
  • Current estimate: 400,000 open jobs in the defense industrial base.
  • Projection: Up to 4 million jobs needed in the next 10 years due to retirements and demand growth.
• Aging Workforce: Many skilled trade workers are retiring; not enough young talent is being drawn into these fields.
• Urgency: The skills gap is now an existential national security issue, not merely a jobs problem.

“We’re likely to have as many as 4 million jobs needed to fill the skilled trades within the defense industrial base. It’s a big gap.” — Cadenazzi [22:01]

Timestamp: [21:54]–[24:43]

3. Defense, Supply Chains, and Urgency in Manufacturing

• Wartime Footing Mentality: The Pentagon is trying to instill urgency in industry, moving from “peacetime” to “wartime” levels of production.
• Supply Chain Vulnerabilities:
  • Overreliance on China for rare earth elements and manufacturing capacity.
  • “Drip, drip, drip” effect of outsourcing; the U.S. ceded critical capabilities over decades for efficiency and cost savings.

“We empowered our number one adversary, our strategic competitor, to take over huge chunks of our industrial base.” — Cadenazzi [18:39]

Timestamp: [14:06]–[21:54]

4. Critical Minerals, Rare Earths, and ‘Metal Independence’

• Dependence on China:
  • U.S. imports 95% of rare earths from China.
  • National security risk if supply is cut off.
• Policy Shifts:
  • Executive orders and massive investment to incentivize domestic mining, refining, and recycling.
  • Public-private partnerships with companies like MP Materials, Rio Tinto, etc.
• Deep-Sea Mining:
  • Potential “$20 trillion industry” around harvesting polymetallic nodules from the ocean floor as a new source for key minerals.

“Metal independence will become a phrase much the same way energy independence has become.” — Rowe [64:10]

Timestamps: [49:33]–[57:01] | [60:12]–[66:34]

5. Programs and Partnerships to Close the Gap

• 41 Workforce Initiatives: Spread nationwide (e.g., Honolulu Community College, Danville Welding Academy, Oak Ridge partnerships).
• Goal: Fast-track technical training (often in 16-week bootcamps) and direct placements in defense industry firms.
• Barriers: Lack of awareness, lingering stigmas, disconnect between education and industry needs.
• Call for Awareness: Emphasize the “cool factor” and meaningfulness of these careers to attract young Americans.

“All problems are communication problems... 99.9% of the country’s never heard of [these programs].” — Rowe [28:33]

“Making all this cool is job one.” — Rowe [31:18]

Timestamps: [25:18]–[29:48]

6. Automation, Technology, and the Future of Defense Work

• Technological Transformation:
  • Integration of autonomy, AI, and advanced manufacturing—factories of the future will have fewer workers but need more tech-savvy operators.
  • Human-machine teaming: One skilled worker can oversee multiple automated systems.
• Palmer Luckey, Anduril, and the Promise of Autonomy: Innovations in drones, unmanned submarines, and defense tech; need for the U.S. to “master autonomy.”

“Our only hope, given the challenges posed by China... is to truly master autonomy in our warfighter or some version of it.” — Rowe (referencing Palmer Luckey) [36:41–38:07]

“We’re going to make [the next generation] more important because we’re going to make them more powerful through the use of all this tech.” — Cadenazzi [39:44]

Timestamps: [35:15]–[41:07]

7. Lessons from History and the Need for Resilience

• Post-Cold War Assumptions:
  • Over-optimism about globalism led to erosion of U.S. manufacturing.
  • COVID-19 lockdowns were a “slap in the face” reminder of supply-chain fragility.
• Need for Domestic Capacity: The market alone won’t ensure national security—requires deliberate resilience in industrial policy.

“The rhetoric change since then regarding the critical need for countries to have some level of domestic resilience... I need to know that a certain amount of my capacity is domestic.” — Cadenazzi [71:32]

Timestamps: [67:36]–[73:44]

8. Leadership, Motivation, and Team Dynamics at the Pentagon

• Cross-Sector Talent: Many in government took pay cuts to serve out of patriotism.
• Collaboration Essential: Real change only happens by leveraging great teams and connecting smart people.
• Morale: Recognition, “eating risk,” and unlocking the “frozen middle” is key to government innovation.

“The number of people...who are incredibly talented that work every day to make the government do what it does is phenomenal.” — Cadenazzi [79:53]

Timestamps: [73:44]–[81:56]

9. Opportunities and How to Get Involved

• Opportunity for Anyone:
  • 41 workforce programs across the U.S.; support for trainees including scholarships and stipends.
  • Emphasis on new tech, automation, and meaningful, well-paid jobs with national consequences.
• Invitation: Cadenazzi encourages people and companies with ideas or innovations to reach out and participate—“bring us your best ideas.”

“There are a raft of new companies that are kicking off their work with that fusion of new tech capabilities and skilled trades...We just want you to go ahead and give us the chance to convince you why this might be the right thing for you.” — Cadenazzi [90:02]

Timestamps: [90:02]–[91:24]; [83:15]–[88:06]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Workforce Gaps:
  “How many do you need? They said, 400,000 in the next eight or nine years. But, like, 100,000 yesterday. … I said, yeah, man, they’re in the eighth grade.” — Rowe [24:14]

• On the Scope of the Challenge:
  “I am sitting on a pile of money trying to figure out how best to deploy it.” — Rowe [57:01]

• On Strategic Change:
  “We have to come up with our own unique Western capabilities to sort of leap ahead.” — Cadenazzi [70:25]

• On Public Service and Motivation:
  “I am honored to be doing this job. The country trusted me… I said that I wanted to be a part of America’s future victories. That’s why I did this.” — Cadenazzi [73:44]

• On Policy & Communication:
  “All problems are communication problems.” — Rowe [28:33]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |--------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:04–08:27 | Introducing Michael Cadenazzi and context for the episode | | 14:06–18:39 | Post-Cold War changes, workforce, urgency | | 21:54–24:43 | Skills gap, workforce numbers, examples of urgent need | | 25:18–29:48 | Workforce programs, communication problem | | 35:15–41:07 | Automation, autonomy, future of defense capability | | 49:33–57:01 | Critical minerals, rare earth policy, and “metal independence”| | 60:12–66:34 | Deep sea mining, renewables, industrial policy | | 71:32–73:44 | Supply chain resilience after COVID and market failures | | 79:53–81:56 | Pentagon teams, culture, and “eating risk” for innovation | | 90:02–91:24 | Opportunities & call to action for workforce/partners |

Tone & Style

• Candid and practical: The conversation feels like two problem-solvers trading notes; government speak is often cut through with humor and directness.
• Patriotism without grandiosity: Both men focus on mission and results, eschewing political rhetoric.
• Relatable stories: Analogies to Dirty Jobs, Risk, and personal family anecdotes make complex issues tangible.

For Listeners: How to Act

• If you’re interested in a skilled trade or know someone who is: Check the Industrial Base Policy office for opportunities and programs across the country—training and good jobs are available, with support.
• If you’re a business with relevant ideas or capabilities: Cadenazzi and his office are actively soliciting partnerships—bring forward your best ideas, especially around workforce, automation, and minerals.
• General message: The need is urgent, the time is now, and personal initiative can make a difference.

To sum up:
This episode delivers a clear-eyed, solutions-focused look at the intersection of workforce, national security, and industrial policy, led by two passionate advocates for American industry and innovation. Whether you’re a welder, entrepreneur, teacher, policy wonk, or curious citizen, you’ll come away understanding the scale of the challenge—and the many opportunities—to help America rebuild its industrial might.