482: Xi Van Fleet— Don't Be a Shiny Little Screw

Summary

The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe – Episode 482 Guest: Xi Van Fleet — "Don’t Be a Shiny Little Screw"
Date: May 5, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode features a powerful conversation between Mike Rowe and Xi Van Fleet, a Chinese-American author and survivor of the Maoist Cultural Revolution. With Xi’s newly released book "Made in America" as the anchor, the discussion delves into firsthand accounts of living under communism, the dangerous parallels she perceives between Maoist China and recent trends in American culture, and urgent warnings for the future of American liberty. The tone is direct, honest, and often sobering, but also threaded with moments of wit and warmth.

---

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Introducing Xi Van Fleet and Her Message

• Origins of Xi’s Public Voice:
  Xi rose to prominence after her impassioned speech at a Loudoun County, VA school board meeting (11:07), where she drew explicit parallels between Cultural Revolution tactics and divisive ideology in American schools.
  • Quote (Xi): “Growing up in Mao’s China, all this seems very familiar. The communist regime used the same critical theory to divide people.”—(11:12)
• Her Two Books:
  • "Mao’s America" — focus on her personal story
  • "Made in America" — broader analysis of U.S.–China relations and cultural warnings
    • Quote (Xi): “This is not my story because this is 100 years’ story. …I believe that’s God’s work. I really feel like I have to do more.” —(09:09)

2. Parallels Between Maoist China and Modern America

• Social Division and Ideology:
  Xi connects the propagation of critical race theory, cultural Marxism, and collectivism in American schools to the indoctrination methods of Maoist China.
  • Quote (Xi): “We were all seen as shiny little screws doing our mechanical part to hold together this giant edifice… the death of individuality and the warm embrace of collectivism.” —(04:41)
  • Mike’s advice: “Don’t be a shiny little screw. And by all means pick up ‘Made in America’ and ‘Mao’s America.’”—(04:51)
• Suppression of Critical Thinking:
  From her childhood, questioning was culturally and literally dangerous.
  • Quote (Xi): “You can’t question. To question, you have to have a critical mind… and I did not have any of this.” —(17:08)

3. Lessons from the Cultural Revolution

• Loss of Individualism & Family Trust:
  • Loyalty was demanded to the party before family.
  • Children were rewarded for loyalty to Mao, not for independent thought or family values.
    • Quote (Xi): “My parents… also fear children because children were indoctrinated in school to watch out for everyone, watch out for the enemies, watch out for your parents.” —(18:18)
• Living Through Chaos:
  • Xi recounts how the chaos of the Cultural Revolution ended schooling for years and normalized public “struggle sessions” and denunciations.
    • Quote (Xi): “Eventually I saw a note on the blackboard. The teacher said, no school for the next four days. It turned to be two years, no school… I denounced teachers, principals, everyone. All the adults were enemies.” —(24:12)
• Enduring Trauma and Social Cycles:
  • “This is the vicious cycle that goes around and round, and in the end, everyone is a victim.” —(32:17)

4. Comparing Communism & Nazism in the American Mind

• Cultural Amnesia:
  Mike and Chuck discuss why communism’s atrocities are overlooked compared to the horrors of Nazism.
  • Quote (Mike): “Why in the world isn’t [collective shame] on Mao the same way? …We are absolutely in business with the Chinese Communist Party.” —(02:56)

5. Application to Contemporary America

• Warning Signs:
  Xi warns that America is perilously close to repeating China’s mistakes, citing language manipulation, coercion to conform, and increased surveillance of thought.
  • Quote (Xi): “You conform.”—(52:58)
  • Quote (Xi): “It’s all for your own good. That’s the same. And that’s why they can push it so, so bad. That’s why Communism is so deceptive.” —(60:43)
• Role of Language and Compliance:
  Discussion of how shifting terminology (e.g., “unhoused” vs. “homeless,” “vision-impaired” vs. “blind”) is an incremental way to enforce conformity.
  • Quote (Xi): “You comply, step one, and then you comply, and then you’ll comply until…” —(66:50)
• American Cultural Revolution?:
  • Xi frames events of 2020—the riots, BLM movement, COVID lockdowns—as a turning point.
    • Quote (Xi): “2020 is absolute the turning point… I said, this is not the America that I remember coming here.”—(56:09)

6. America, Individual Rights, and Gratitude

• Value of the Constitution:
  Xi’s passionate defense of the Bill of Rights, with particular reverence for the Second Amendment:
  • Quote (Xi): “I think [the] second, without that, they kill so many Chinese… No guns. No guns.”—(75:22)
  • She also highlights that America’s liberty is rooted in the belief that rights come from the creator, not the government.
    • Quote (Xi): “That’s why we’re free… It’s said in our Declaration of Independence that our liberty is from our creator.” —(76:01)
• Gratitude for America:
  • Quote (Xi): “I’m so grateful I’m here… I will do everything I can to save this country.” —(71:52)

7. How the U.S. Enabled Modern China

• Complicity of American Institutions:
  Xi’s new book argues that America, through business, politics, and willful ignorance, materially enabled the rise of the CCP.
  • Quote (Xi): “We made the CCP rich. That makes me so mad.”—(102:22)
  • She also blasts bipartisan blindness, noting that even well-meaning conservatives (e.g., Bill O'Reilly) fail to grasp the true nature of the CCP—partnering with them, rather than confronting.
• Consumer Choices:
  Panel urges listeners to be mindful of purchasing American-made goods over cheap Chinese imports.
  • Quote (Chuck): “If you can buy American, buy American. And if you can buy from anywhere else other than China, buy from anywhere else other than China. I’m trying to do that in my life.”—(105:56)

8. On “Soft Landings” and Despair or Hope

• Are We Past the Tipping Point?
  Xi fears it may be “too late” for a full restoration of American tradition, but stresses that striving for a “soft landing” is still worth fighting for.
  • Quote (Xi): “We fell off the cliff already. We are looking for a soft landing… If we want to restore America completely. That will take decades… we’ve been asleep for so long.” —(83:30, 86:25)
  • Quote (Xi): “I hope. I fight this fight because I believe in it. But I know for sure it’s not something we can turn around overnight.” —(87:02)

9. Prescriptions and Final Lessons

• Learn and Resist Utopian Promises:
  • Quote (Xi): “There’s no Utopia, there’s no heaven on earth. No zero. …That is the way to lure you into this idea of collectivism. So you gave up your individual rights… I want them to read my book, to learn the real history.” —(80:18)
• Trust and Vigilance:
  • Quote (Xi): “Who do we trust? Trust God. That’s the only thing I think.”—(94:32)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Don’t be a shiny little screw.” (04:41) — The episode’s titular metaphor for avoiding mindless compliance.
• Xi’s school board speech audio—her pivotal public moment. (11:07–12:06)
• Xi’s recollection of spreading manure, hungry as a teenager in Mao’s commune system, hands reeking with “the feces from every species.” (49:57–50:50)
  • “I found some towel and just wrap up, and I managed to eat my dinner.”
• Mike’s meta-reflection: “We’re a generation away… our freedoms, our liberties. And that’s what she is, ringing the bell, saying, hey, don’t lose sight of this.” (02:10)
• Xi’s assertion: “Mao specializes in killing his own people. And that to me is more evil.” (41:52)

---

Notable Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |:---------:|-------| | 00:04–04:51 | Intro and overview of Xi’s works and themes | | 11:07–12:06 | Xi’s Loudoun County school board speech | | 24:01–25:07 | Cultural Revolution “struggle sessions;” end of schooling | | 31:35–32:40 | Mao’s “internal coup” via Red Guards | | 52:58–54:06 | Conformity and American collectivist trends | | 56:09–57:44 | Parallels: 2020 U.S. conflicts & lockdowns vs. Cultural Revolution | | 75:17–76:01 | Xi’s case for the Second Amendment | | 83:26–86:25 | Tipping point: hope for a “soft landing” | | 100:38–102:22 | U.S. consumer complicity in CCP wealth | | 104:12–105:09 | Xi signs Mike’s book with humor about Chinese signatures |

---

Final Thoughts

The episode is a stirring warning from someone who has survived a totalitarian regime and sees shadows of the same dangers in present-day America. Xi Van Fleet combines storytelling with activism, urging vigilance against erosions of liberty, critical thinking, and individualism.

The clear message: Learn from history before the cost of ignorance becomes irreversible. Don’t be a shiny little screw.

---

Books Referenced:

• Mao’s America — Xi Van Fleet
• Made in America — Xi Van Fleet

Main Advice:

• Value and defend individual rights and liberties
• Be skeptical of utopian collectivist promises
• Support American-made goods, stay mindful as a consumer
• Read history, especially from those who lived it

“Be the people. Not just We the People — but be.”

Transcript

[A]

Well, it's the way I heard it. And I'm Mike Rowe, and my friend, she Van Fleet has done it again. Chuck. She's written another book, Tell the folks about it.

[B]

Well, it is called Made in America, and basically, it's a warning to Americans not to be like those terrible Chinese. Not to be like the terrible. The Chinese are great, wonderful people. The Chinese government, awful people. That is horrible.

[A]

Yes, she got kind of famous. She did about five years ago when she mouthed off at a school board meeting in Loudoun, Virginia, and basically offered a cautionary tale to those in attendance, specifically the alarming parallels between the Cultural Revolution that she survived and lived through in the 60s and 70s in communist China under Mao and what she believed was happening in our school systems and in our society at large. The parallels in her first book are incredible. It's called Mao's America. I recommend that, and I recommend Made in America as well, because this, to your point, is a deeper dive at the symbiotic, albeit sometimes enabling, way that we here in the US of A have made China, China, China.

[B]

Which she said. Which just drove me. That was amazing when she said it that way. But, yes, we're all guilty, I think, is what.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know what? We had Janya Kellogg on a couple of times now, and the feedback from that is always kind of voluminous, and people are alarmed to hear about things like organ harvesting. And, look, it's a very uncomfortable reality, relationship with these Communists. And. And, look, I wanted to have Xi on because it sure feels to me. And we'll get into this in some detail, but it just. I don't know, man. It's like the older I get, the more I realize Reagan was right about a couple of things, but the big one being we're a generation away.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It could all go away. Our freedoms, our liberties. And that's what she is, ringing the bell, saying, hey, don't lose sight of this.

[A]

And when you say she, you mean her.

[B]

I mean she.

[C]

She.

[A]

You mean ye.

[B]

Her.

[A]

The lady I'm about to.

[B]

Her name is she not. Crawl.

[A]

Crawl.

[B]

Anyway, but listen, I want to say this. You know, the Nazis got off. The Nazis. You can't say you're a Nazi. You can't run for mayor of New York City and claim to be a Nazi. But the Communists got all easy, amazing. And they killed way more people.

[A]

I didn't know where you were going with that. Yeah, it sounded pretty weird, but now I get it. Yes. You can't. The stink is still on. Nazism deservedly so.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why in the world isn't it on Mao? Yeah. In the same way. Why isn't it on the ccp? Why? Why? And the answer is, we are not really in any way, shape or form, as a country or a culture, in business with the Nazi Party, but we are absolutely in business. We are absolutely in business with the Chinese Communist Party.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't have to look far to see that a lot of otherwise reasonable people walking around this country right now are open. Open to the possibility. Let's give this Communism thing a look. Let's give the social.

[B]

They just got it wrong before. We're gonna get it right.

[A]

Yeah. It was an execution problem, not an ideological problem.

[B]

And. Yeah, execution in more ways than one, because how many people? 50 million people.

[A]

50 million died in the famine. 20 million died in the Cultural Revolution. We'll learn all about that. In fact, Chuck wanted to call this episode the Horrors of Communism. Which is both a literal and accurate description of the conversation we're about to have. But she's such a delight. She really is, this woman. I didn't want to festoon the episode with such a heavy title because there's a lot of laughter in this conversation. Well, not a lot, but more than I thought there was going to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look, the truth is, the message and the messenger are both really important in all communiques. But in this case, the messenger is really important because she's been there. She did that. She lived through the Cultural Revolution. She was an eyewitness to a lot of things that are happening in our country right now.

[B]

She's charming, passionate and persuasive.

[A]

And she does, at one point in the conversation, say we were all seen as shiny little screws doing our mechanical part to hold together this giant edifice, you know? And the death of individuality and the warm embrace of collectivism. And your role in that, what does it really mean? And I'd never heard that expression before. So when she refers to herself and to so many others who worked on the communes in the 60s and 70s as shiny little screws, I just think the appropriate advice to pass on to you, our loyal and gentle listeners, is don't be a shiny little screw. And by all means pick up Made in America and Mal's America by G. Van Fleet, who you're going to love right after this. So the Microworks foundation has set aside $10 million this year to help train the next generation of skilled workers. And I'd like to encourage you to go get some of that money or Let people know that the money is there. I know I talk about this a lot on the podcast and all over the place, but the headlines really have caught up with America's widening skills gap. Everybody is paying attention right now, and my foundation has been made relevant in ways that, frankly, I never imagined. So we're setting aside a big chunk of money. There are hundreds of thousands of open positions right now in this country that don't require a four year degree. They require training. That's what Microworks does. Apply for a Work Ethic Scholarship today. You got to jump through some hoops. You got to, you know, you gotta make a case for yourself. But the application isn't that complicated. It's right [e-mail] go fill it out. $10 million waiting to help train the next generation of electricians and plumbers and H Vac techs and welders and shipbuilders and linemen. The list goes on. The money is there. Microworks.org apply today. Good luck. So was that scarf made for you or did you actually buy that?

[C]

I think my friend bought it for me in the. I think St. John's Church in Richmond. That's where Patrick Henry gave his famous speech. Yeah, I think that's the store that

[A]

was the give me liberty or give me death speech.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So just for people who are listening and not watching, on the right side of your scarf we have the Declaration of Independence. And on the left side we have. Was that the Constitution? What is that?

[C]

I think. Is that.

[A]

No, no, that's okay. It's the other way around. Look at that.

[B]

Yeah. On our right shoulder is the Declaration and our left shoulder is the Constitution.

[C]

But the Constitution can't be this short. Maybe it's the same. Maybe it's a.

[A]

Maybe you got two Declaration of Independences.

[C]

Well, we can't do that. I think it's decoration of independence. I think it's both.

[B]

Both sides. This Declaration of Independence.

[A]

I think so.

[C]

I think it's just. Yeah. Otherwise the Constitution is too long.

[A]

Yeah, it's too long. You know what? You would need a. I know. You need a whole pantsuit for that. Now your shirt is somewhat easier to decipher. That just simply says America is good.

[C]

I know for this is a message that we have to push out. I love America and people absolutely have love it. Fall in love with it before can save it.

[A]

Well, let me tell you why I wanted to meet you. I loved your first book.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

And don't take this the wrong way, but I think I Think the message is really, really important. But I think the messenger sometimes is even more important. And normally I don't get very political on this show, but.

[C]

Really you don't?

[A]

Not much. But when Mamdani was elected in New York and when I see a pretty big chunk of this generation really not understanding communism or socialism or America either. Or Mao. Yeah, right. I just thought. I've seen you interviewed in a couple other venues and I just really, I appreciate your message, but I appreciate your story. So this is now what, Made in America is your second book?

[C]

Yeah, but this is not. I put myself in it as much as I can, but this is not my story because this is 100 years story. But the first one was more personal. But I am just so surprised. I'm the only one that lives through the communist China that get to somehow picked by the media. There's others talking, but they don't get the publicity. And I believe that's God's work. I really feel like I have to do more.

[A]

I was first introduced to you with a very short video, I guess it was. Was it in Loudoun County?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you went to some school board meeting and mouthed off. You know, you're wearing a mask. You made all sorts. People burst into applause. What?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What happened on that day? What was that all about?

[C]

Well, that is when I went to the school board because at that time it was. Everything was so divided and they were pushing all sorts of Marxist ideologies and the Republicans Committee, local committee urged people to go there and speak. And by then, actually my son was out of school. I feel like, you know, you have to be parent. They said, no, everyone can go.

[A]

So you had 60 seconds to address the school board.

[C]

Yes, and I did that. And I thought I did my job and I thought everyone knew what I was talking about. Our cultural revolution. Of course, we all know it. No, no. Yeah.

[A]

So you went there. You all right, Chuck?

[B]

Yeah, I was just trying to find it.

[A]

Oh, you should play it if you have. Yeah, it's only 60 seconds. This was in 2021. 2021.

[C]

20, 2021. That's right after the election.

[A]

So this is the school board in Loudoun County. It's only a minute long, folks. I'm going to play the whole thing because this is. This is how I met Xi. And I think this is how a lot of other people met you as well. And let's just give it a listen.

[C]

What's going on in our school. You are now teaching, training our children to be social justice warriors. And to lose our country and our history. Growing up in Mao's China, all this seems very familiar. The communist regime used the same critical theory to divide people. The only difference is they use class instead of race. During the Cultural Revolution, I witnessed students and teachers again turned against each other. We changed school names to be politically correct. We were taught to denounce our heritage. The red dots destroy anything that is not Communist. Oaths, statues, books and anything else. We are also encouraged to report on each other. Just like the student equity Ambassador program and the bias reporting system. This is indeed the American version of the Chinese Communist the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The critical race theory has its roots in Cultural Marxism. It should have no place in our schools.

[A]

So your point is? You wanted to say what you said, but you assumed that everyone listening would understand what the Chinese Cultural Revolution was and the Red Guard.

[C]

I was shocked. I was even more shocked later and see how little that people knew about Communist China, our Cultural Revolution and communism in general.

[A]

If you had written a book called Communism for Dummies and you were just going to really simplify this, what do you wish every American understood about your lived experience back? Because that was in the 60s and 70s, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That you grew up there. What do we need to know?

[C]

I have to go back a little bit further because I did not choose communism. My parents did or their generation did. Because by the time I was born, I knew nothing. And I swim in the water of communism. I did not know anything different. But my parents generation, they choose communism. Why they choose communism? Exact reason that the people choose communism here, they just did not know it's communism. Okay, for the poor, they want free land. Those are the peasants that made up up to 90% of the China's population back then. Free land. That sounds just wonderful. And for the others, like my parents, they were from where to do family actually both My father's side, they own land. My mother's side, they are professional professors. They were well to do. Why do they want to join the revolution? They want to save China. They want to help the poor. Does that sound like the white liberals? That's why communism is so attractive to so many people. Because they promised heaven on earth.

[A]

And I've never met anyone really who looks at themselves in the mirror and thinks about the ideology that they support and sees themselves as a bad guy.

[C]

Oh, they all.

[A]

No one sees themselves as a bad guy. And you know, I mean, it's a very charitable way to look at the species. But I think, you know, both sides need to assume that the other Side thinks they're correct and they're doing this for the greater good.

[C]

For the greater good. Always for the greater good. Just like professor or Dr. Jordan Peterson always said, those people could not make their bed, live in the basement of their parents, yet they want to go to the streets and change the world. That's the communists. That's really. That's why. Well, it's not the whole story, but that's why it can attract so many people across the ages in different countries, in different cultural environment.

[A]

Did your parents come to the conclusion eventually that they had chosen that they

[C]

are not to come to any conclusion, because to come to a conclusion of your own is anti the party. And you're going to be taken care of. Like my father. Especially my father, because his mother. His father died earlier on land. And so the land was taken away, of course, confiscated. That's not it. And she was lucky enough not to be killed or murdered and tortured because she already left the countryside and lived in the city. Many people died. 2 million landlord were killed for the crime of owning land and have more than their neighbors. That's not it. They're taking everything. They kill you and your offspring. Inherit that sin. Sounds familiar.

[A]

Inherit the what?

[C]

The sin.

[A]

Oh, the sin of.

[C]

The sin of the parents of the grandparents. So my father become, you know, everyone have to fill out forms, you know, like whatever forms your class background. Either you're a proletarian, that's considered red, or your landlord and is black. So he was black, belonged to the black class. And I did too.

[A]

So the biggest separation in communist China in those days was not between race, it was between class, class.

[C]

That's Mao's identity politics. But that did not work. It would not work in the United States. That's why they went to race, gender, sexuality, and that goes on and on.

[A]

Okay, we'll get to the similarities between the Cultural Revolution and whatever happened here over the last 10 years. But just so people really understand, what was it like to grow up even though you didn't choose it? Did you ever feel comfortable with it? Or did you always look around and go, no, no, this is not for me.

[C]

I know this. I'm glad you bring it back, because I took. I sidetracked. I was born in 1920.

[A]

Come on. Xi.

[C]

59. 59. It's the beginning of the great famine. But of course I don't remember. But I was a first grader when the Cultural Revolution started. That I remember. And it lasted for 10 years. By the time it's over, when Mao died, I was 17. I remember every bit of it because I lived through it. So people always ask me, did you notice something wrong? Did you question, of course I noticed something wrong, but I never question it. And you say why? You can't question to question. You have to have a critical mind. To have a critical mind, you have to have information. And I did not have any of this. So anything that no matter how bad it must be, it must be because the party, Mao said that's the way it is, so it must be it. So I never questioned the whole system. I always found enemies.

[A]

Was it love or fear?

[C]

Fear. Fear, Fear. Fear is more motivational than love. And if there's something goes wrong, those people, there's plenty of those people to blame. And that is how I grew up. I never had an original thought in my mind. Never, ever growing up, China. And I never questioned anything. And people say, how about home? How about your parents? My parents, they're doing the same thing. And they also fear children because children were indoctrinated in school to watch out, watch out for everyone, watch out for the enemies, watch out for your parents. And there are just plenty of stories of parents being sold out by the school, by the kids, because the kids

[A]

are being taught that their number one loyalty is to the party, the state. Here's a true but troubling story. I was out to dinner the other night with some friends when I noticed my neighbor had something in her eyebrow. It looked like a tiny sunflower seed, except it was black and it had legs and it was sucking the blood out of her body. It was a tick. And when I pulled it off her face and showed it to her, I thought the poor woman was going to faint. And no, she was not comforted by the fact that me and everybody else at that table had been pulling them off of our own selves for the last few weeks. I know it's disgusting, but the fact is, my neighborhood and a lot of other wooded zip codes right now are inundated with ticks. And lots of my neighbors are using pesti to fight back. With pesti, you can create an outdoor barrier around your house in just 10 minutes. Protects your home from over 100 different types of bugs, including ticks. It's kid friendly, it's pet friendly. You can get started for just 35 bucks. A treatment with a customized plan based on your location, your bugs, your climate. It varies all over the country, obviously, but pesti is used in schools and hospitals all over the Nation. Comes with 100% money back guarantee, which means if the bugs don't go away. You'll get a full refund. Each kit contains a sprayer, a mixing bag, pesticide gloves, instructions, everything you need to complete the job in less than 10 minutes. Keep the bugs away with pesti. Go to pesti.com Mike get 10% off your order. That's P-E-S-T-I-E.com Mike for an extra 10% off. P E S T I E pesd.com

[C]

yeah, the party and state in China is the same thing and it is always the same thing. And that's why now we focus. We say government, but it is really the party. When they took power, when they take power, permanent power, it merged into one.

[A]

I'm so curious about. How did your parents think? I mean, I'm imagining maybe not in the first grade, but by the time you get to the seventh, eighth, ninth grade, you're a young woman and did they like the fact that you were more loyal to the state than to them?

[C]

Yeah, they make sure I do that. I make sure because that's good. In school we have, end of every semester we have like a competition. Who can be the loyalist student and who can be the one that read Mao's Little Red Book and applied it the most. I got that award several times.

[A]

Tell me about the Little Red Book. What exactly was in it?

[C]

Well, the Little Red Book is a bunch of. Yes, it's quotations from Mao's works without context. Just here and there, here and there, just everywhere. So it's all quotations. That's really, that's what it is. Make no sense because the context was taken out. But doesn't matter, you just read it. And in my book, first book, I did say this, one of the quotations is whatever you will love it. Whatever our enemy against we are for and vice versa. And I, you know, in my young mind, I was like, hey, I really like candy. And what if our enemies like candy too? That means I have to against it. That's very dangerous critical thinking. But I had a little one. That's just because that quotation makes no sense. And today, look today. And Trump said, don't drink your own urine. And the others said, we will drink it,

[A]

okay, we'll get to America. Help me understand even as much as you can, what it was like to be in the middle of a revolution as it was happening. And when, if you remember, did you realize that something truly terrible.

[C]

Oh, yes, yes, I know something is just. I had one semester of normal schooling and from a first grade and Then the second, as soon as the second one started, yeah, it's a revolution. All of a sudden the older kids started to go after the teachers. I did not know I was too young, hardly seven. And all the principles were denounced. All the big character posters were everywhere. Do you know what that is? It's just big papers and wrote in big letters.

[A]

It's like Soviet art.

[C]

It's not art, it's an article. It's kind of like today's social media. You put it on the wall so everyone can read it. So it's really the old fashioned social media. The goal is to denounce someone. So I denounced teachers, principals, everyone. All the adults were enemies. And no schools. The school, like in the beginning, it's like, today we have school, tomorrow no. But eventually I saw a note on the blackboard. The teacher said, no school for the next four days. It turned to be two years, no school. That you know, something's chaos, you know something. And I went home. My parents were not home most of time because they're doing the same in their workplace. To find out the enemies to write the big character posters to show that you are in for the revolution and you are against whoever the enemies.

[A]

So that's my question. Who are the enemies you're revolting against? Landowners, teachers, academics. How do you get on the bad list?

[C]

And when I, when I talk about the landlord, that was phase one. That was the enemy that had land and then the land was taken, right? All the people were labeled, their children, grandchildren were labeled. So you can't continue to do the landlord. So you took the property, private property, and you're done with it. So I want to say, so they went after people's mind, the private property in your mind. We cannot allow that. There's no private property allowed in. In your mind. Everyone has to have the same thinking, the correct thinking. And then they had what they called thought reform movement. Everyone, especially intellectuals, have to clean your thought so that now you get rid of the old thinking and now you adapt party thinking. So if you don't, then you are the new enemy.

[A]

Yeah, well, it just sounds like in general terms, I get it, but the divide is between classes. But it's really. Mao's appeal was to a mass of people who had very little to lose, right? I mean, the enemies were people who owned property and who. Who had some standing. Maybe I just.

[C]

Can I continue? This is very hard to understand. So the second movement is to get rid of the private property in your mind. And then the Cultural Revolution. What is Cultural Revolution. After I tell you this, I think will make more sense. Okay. Why there is a Cultural Revolution. So Mao, after he get rid of the landlord and get rid of the people who have wrong thinking. No one dare not to say anything that's honest. Then they know if they do that, they will end up in the black class, the enemy of the revolution. So no one posed him. See, he started all sorts of crazy, crazy policies. One of them is called Great Leap Forward. He's going to bring China into modern world. By what? By having everyone make steel. Everyone, I mean peasant, teachers, kids, cadre, whatever. To make steel. Why steel? He believed that's how you modernize China. To make weapons, whatever. So everyone was making steel. This is so crazy. And furnace, backyard furnace rise up everywhere in China. And of course it failed. Not only failed, the crop failed. So that led to the starvation. The three year famine killed more than 50 million people.

[A]

How old were you when this happened?

[C]

I was born.

[A]

You were just born. So the famine really started around 60. 1960?

[C]

No, 1959. And my mother told me a lot of stories. But anyway, even in a country like China, that was a big deal. That's a big deal, right?

[A]

So the first three years of your life, 50 million of your countrymen starved to death.

[C]

Yes, died. And then. So he was forced to admit that he.

[A]

Who was in charge then before? Mao.

[C]

Mao was. Was in charge.

[A]

Mao was. Then who was before? Was it Shanghai Shek?

[C]

That's another government that overthrow and drive them out to Taiwan. But he was in charge for a long time. And in the 30s. In the late 30s, he was already.

[A]

When did Mao come to power?

[C]

When? Yeah, it's about 19, late mid-30s.

[A]

Mao was around from the mid-30s?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Good grief. 30, 40, 56. So he would. He had been in power three decades.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

By the time the Cultural Revolution starts.

[C]

But here is the important thing, why he started Cultural Revolution. Okay, so with this many people died in the peacetime. It's a big deal even under communist country. So he was a force to. To admit that he made a mistake. And he was forced to be sidelined a little bit. A little bit. Just gave more power to his two guys to recover, really recover from the famine. He did not like it even from outside the party. People still think he was in total control. The Cultural Revolution was to. This is so important was to take down his party, to take down his government. Because he feel like all those people are not loyal to him, those people against him. So he want to destroy his party and his part government. By using what? The young people, the kids, they know nothing. Those are the kids that called Red Guards.

[A]

I was just about to ask, how did one become a Red Guard?

[C]

It's not even organized. You just because Mao threw. There's a lot to unpack, but there's no social media, there's not even television. So he allowed the kids to come to Beijing free of charge. Free of charge. You can take the train and once you get to a place, the government will take care of your laundry and the food. To meet Mao in Tiananmen Square, you probably, many people probably saw the picture of Mao in uniform on Tiananmen Square and waved to the Red Guards. Millions of them had did it eight times and then mobilized.

[A]

When was the famous photo in Tiananmen Square of the guy in front of the tank?

[C]

Oh, that was after he died. Yeah, but this is during the culture. That's how he mobilized the kids, by allowing them, encourage them to come to Beijing. Their travel was so scarce back then. Travel is a luxury now. Free. Everything's free. The kids came, they had a great time. They went back home, they carry out the revolution. They took their teachers and started with teachers. That's how I saw in my school. And then the principals, and then the governors, and then mayors. Everyone, everyone. Eventually, Mao took down his number one enemy, the guy in charge of China's economy. And the Red Guards took him out, gave him a struggle session, and then he was imprisoned, died afterwards.

[A]

So this was really a big sort of internal coup.

[C]

Thank you. But it's a coup. That is not a coup. Right. It's a people's will. And here is something that's really, really sinister, that Mao understood the psychology by then. The people are fed up with those people in power. They're fed up with the mayors, the mayor's assistant. They hate the Communist Party members. So they went after them mercilessly. And then the governors in my state, in my province, I witnessed that struggle session of the governor being struggled against. So now they become the landowners.

[A]

So people understand.

[C]

They become. Do you see what I mean? They become the landlord, and then the other people become the peasants. This is the vicious cycle that goes around and round and round, and in the end, everyone is a victim. I just want to make sure that.

[A]

No, I got. Look. That's very Nietzsche, right? We who fight monsters must be careful not to become monsters ourselves.

[C]

It become like everyone. It's just amazing. And after the Cultural Revolution, those people who are denounced back in power. And then they persecuted the former Red Guards.

[A]

How many died 20 million.

[C]

That's the estimate. But in China you never get the real number because the controls in the three year famine and there was no one single. Well, maybe a few photos survived. They all burned. They were absolutely burned. Not hide. They did not hide it. That burned it.

[A]

Do you think that 50 million is a real number?

[C]

Absolutely

[A]

dumb. American ranchers compete against cheaper imported meat every day, often deceptively labeled. It's not a fair playing field and over time that affects whether those American ranches can keep going. That's why it matters where your meat comes from. And it's why I choose good ranchers. Good ranchers partners with local ranchers to deliver 100% American meat straight to your door. It's pasture raised, has no antibiotics, no added hormones. It's the kind of quality that you can actually feel good about serving to the people around your table. But most of all, it just tastes better. I've tried the other services. I've got nothing bad to say about any of them. But good ranchers is just better. Start your plan today. You'll get free meat included with every order, plus $100 off your first three orders with code MIKE. Just go to goodranchers.com, use code MIKE at checkout. That's free meat with every order and $100 off your first three orders. When you start your subscription plan this month only or if you just want to try it, you can get 40 bucks off your first order with code MIKE instead. Either way, goodranchers.com American meat delivered. If you could eat a steer, if you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers.

[C]

Absolutely. And this is by many, many scholars. And then they explaining to you how exactly they got to the number not from the government, but from the census. And how many people should, how many should die compare with the year before, the years after. It's so widespread and I think probably 50 is absolutely reasonable, maybe more.

[A]

So the 20 million who died during Cultural Revolution. During the Cultural Revolution, how did they die?

[C]

Typically, oh my God. That is all sorts of ways. That's really, really people killing people. That is another thing that I think that make Chinese communism so sinister. A lot of the killings were not like at midnight, please knock at your door and drag you out and you will never sing again. It's people. It's the neighbor killing the neighbor, students killing the teacher, parents, I mean even children killing the parents, friends, co workers. Most people died that way.

[A]

And what kind of law or justice or anything existed? What's your recourse. I mean, people must have known that this was mass murder on a colossal scale happening in their own neighborhoods.

[C]

Well, Mike, don't dwell on the past. Let's just move on. That's what they say, move on, move on.

[A]

It's not the great leap backward.

[C]

Yeah. And okay, there is a story, and it's a very interesting story. So she was a young girl, she was a leader for her girls high school school. They killed their principal and then nothing happened. Not only nothing happened, she came to America and she got a PhD in MIT and she worked the rest of her life for the Massachusetts state government. And she died a few years ago.

[A]

And she was part of a group of girls who physically killed the principal.

[C]

And she was the leader of the group of girls talking about vetting. There's no vetting. Americans do not understand China do not understand communism. They let murderers, they let all sorts of people coming in. And now we're talking about no vetting. No vetting went back, way back. And there's no respons. There are just no consequences.

[A]

So if you were just to sum it up in a sentence or two, what was the cultural.

[C]

The culture of like is a coup. It's a Mao's way to use young people and to take down his political enemies. And in the process he destroyed China, destroyed our heritage, destroyed. Oh my God, destroyed so much our art, artifact, temples, sculptures, everything.

[A]

What was the ruling ideology prior to communism?

[C]

Confucianism. Okay, everybody, let's get together and be nice to each other. The only thing is that if you are a father, if you are male and a father, you should play your role the best. You'll be a best father, you'll be best husband. And we're all kind of. It didn't work. Kind of. You know, people do think that's the best way of living.

[A]

How did the Falun Gong evolve?

[C]

Well, Falun Gong is a spiritual movement. I think it becomes so popular in China is because after Cultural Revolution and there was like a vacuum, all the transition was destroyed. Communism, they were disillusioned. There's just nothing. But people are spiritual beings. We are spiritual beings. So someone come up and come with this idea and everyone just jumped in. My mother became a Falun Gong practitioner and she practiced all sorts of things. Her health was so improved. So that's how it started.

[A]

People looking for meaning.

[C]

I think it's people looking for meaning. Absolutely.

[A]

So how did communism start? I mean, I'm so interested because you said your parents chose it, which means there were Other options. There were other things to do. And for whatever reason, how did it get sold in such a.

[C]

To China, to the Chinese people. Several things. One of them is what I said is promise the land to the tillers. You know, everyone should have land. That's very appealing in a country that 90% were peasants. Right. The other is nationalism. Nationalism was really weaponized to push communism into China. That we have to. You know, China was a. They call it a semi colonial, semi colony because there's a lot of people and a lot of powers had cut off places around the coast, mostly around Britain, Hong Kong. Yeah, Britain, Hong Kong and Germany, Shandong province. And they're not totally, totally colonized, but people don't like it. And you can see why. Sure. So that is one major reason that communists push it.

[A]

How did the Cultural Revolution end? What was.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

That was it.

[C]

That's it. That's it.

[A]

How did he die? He just died. What? Died in his sleep. Somebody shoot him. And what happened?

[C]

He died? Yeah, in his sleep. It should be something else, but yeah, he died. Yeah, it should be much worse than that. That's exactly.

[A]

But how soon after his death did the country sort of just shake this off?

[C]

They did not shake it off. They never shook it off. Please. They never shook it off. Mao's portrait still hanging there in the Tiananmen Square Tower, never showed off because Mao is ccp and CCP is Mao never separated. But Mao is just somehow brought China to such ruins that they have to find another way.

[A]

Can you think of any other leader of any other country at any other time? I mean, Stalin, Attila the Hun. Is there anyone who wreaked more havoc and did more damage?

[C]

I really can't think so, because Genghis Khan.

[A]

Right, Khan.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hey, Kale. Hey. I kill my. Mao said, I kill for your own good. I kill you today because it's good for you. And that's what makes them so, so, so evil. And so what's your question?

[A]

Well, I'm just wondering if. I'm just trying to find the ultimate bad guy in the history of the species.

[C]

I think Mao will be absolutely one of them. That's what I said. He kill you because it's good for you. That's, you know, like Hitler. He killed other so called other people, right? You know, the Jews and whatever. Mao specializes in killing his own people. And that to me is more evil.

[A]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Now we can talk about Loudoun County. Yeah, now we can talk about.

[C]

We have to Talk about the book too.

[A]

We'll get to your book. You settle down there. Made in America by Given Fleet, her second book. It's very good. And your co author, who's that?

[C]

It's very important. I collaborate with a dissident author. He came from China. I lived through the Cultural Revolution. He lived through Tiananmen. He did not live. So he was too young for. But he lives through the current tyranny. Okay, so.

[A]

And this book basically argues that our country, the United States, helped make China China, current day China. We enabled a lot of the current problems.

[C]

And if we can, I know you probably will not spend too much time on the book. And then the one thing I really want to emphasize is that Trump is our first president. I mean, the only president who understand the danger of Chinese communism. And he said something that's very important. He said, I don't blame the communist China taking advantage of us. I blame the people, the people here, the political leaders that allow it. And that summarizes my book. That is absolutely. We allow. Why? Good questions. Why? Because we never. We never understand communism. We never even try.

[A]

When did you come to this country?

[C]

1980. 86. 40 years this year.

[A]

Okay, and so you had been living in Loudoun County?

[C]

I started in Kentucky and then later moved to in 1990s.

[A]

How do you get to Kentucky? Why Kentucky?

[C]

I know it's a beautiful story. I was in China and then there are some Americans come to teach in my college and I was a teacher there. And one of the ladies is from Kentucky and we become friends and she said she want to help me to go to study in America. I said, sure, she will forget as soon as she leaves because it's a summer kind of program. She did not. She did not forget. She helped me to get assistantship.

[A]

What a good friend.

[C]

What a good friend. And now I say her name is Pat Nev. She brought me here so that I can fight communism in America. Can you believe it?

[A]

Is Pat still around?

[C]

No, she's gone. And I just. I wish she knew. And I wish I knew. I did not know. But this is just amazing that I came here thought, thinking I escaped communism.

[A]

To what? Louisville. Where in Kentucky?

[C]

Bowling Green. Kentucky.

[A]

In Bowling Green. Okay. And what town in China was home?

[C]

Chengdu.

[A]

Chengdu?

[C]

Yeah. And people, if they know anything, it's a panda bear.

[A]

What do you mean it's a panda bear?

[C]

It's where you go see.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

A city of panda bears.

[A]

You don't live in a panda bear. Okay, man, I read that there, there are something like 10 Chinese cities with over a hundred million people. It's not even on a map. Like, the cities aren't even on a map.

[C]

I know, I know, but not anymore. Go to cities. No, first of all, the economy is so bad and people no longer have jobs. A lot of them just left.

[A]

Forgive me, it's kind of a sidebar, because I want to stay on your journey. But what's it do to a country? All right, the first question is the countryside. I want you to talk about what it meant to be sent to the countryside. I know, when you were a girl, but I also want to understand what it means, like in the last 15 years, for hundreds of millions of people to come to the cities. Like, what does that do to a country internally?

[C]

We have to remember. We don't forget the second part. I tell my first part, okay? So in living, because, you know, sometimes you talk, talk.

[A]

And this is why I have a pen and pencil here. I gotta remind myself, Oskar, about internal

[B]

migration, why people go to the cities.

[A]

Got it?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay, go ahead.

[C]

But my story, I think it is interesting. And when I grew up and everyone was told that we are part of the collective. Collective is the goal. Individualism is bourgeois. It has to be eliminated. So that means you don't have a personal dream. What is a dream?

[A]

Explain the bourgeoisie.

[C]

Yeah, bourgeoisie. I don't know what bourgeois was. What a word. When I again sidetracked is so easy. When I started to learn English. That is my first grade. No, not first. My first English textbook. Bourgeois. So hard to pronounce. Bourgeois. I don't know, it means bad. That's it. But it really is a word from, you know, Karl Marx. Bourgeois means nothing. The middle class. But the later. In a country that has no middle class, bourgeois just means bad. That's it. And that's how I understood. And so where I was bourgeois. You should not have anything that's individual, including dream of being something. Our dream is being a shiny little screw. That the Party will be happy. Wherever Party put us in this giant socialist machine.

[A]

A shiny little screw.

[C]

Shiny, yeah. You should be happy. You can't be unhappy if the Party puts you in a shithole. You should be happy. And that's what they did. They sent me to the countryside, like all the Chinese young people, because there's no jobs.

[A]

You will eat the bugs and you will like it.

[C]

Exactly. So I was into the countryside. And when I say that, I have to tell Americans, it's not the countryside. You drive here in the weekend it's

[A]

not town and it's not horseback rides and Walden Pond.

[C]

It's shithole. Why? Because it is really, really filled. It's gulags. That's the best way to describe it.

[A]

And communes, I would think. Right.

[C]

A commune. I lived in the commune. It was dissolved, I think in the late. After I came here. So probably late 1980s. I live in the commune when nobody owns anything. When all we work is for the state and we get a little points. So you work for a day, you get points. Same if you work and I work. If you work hard, I don't worry. Same thing. We all get five points or 10 points and whatever. I think they are a little bit too sexist. But men get 10 points, women get 8 points.

[A]

My favorite poet, Robert Frost, said, the world is filled with people who are willing to work and the rest who are willing to let them.

[C]

I think I was in the middle. I never worked that hard. Because it's a hard work. It's hard work. It's really filled with no basic. The tool is the most basic. I have to tell the story in my book, in my first book, that one day we have to spread the manure. And what is the manure? It's poops. Yeah. Human and pigs and the chicken or whatever.

[A]

All the poop mixed together.

[C]

All together.

[A]

That's where we get the word poo. Pourri don't. It's not true. But it's possible. It's plausible. Sounds good.

[B]

Sounding good.

[C]

Possible.

[A]

It's plausible.

[C]

And then they mix with ashes, like a wood and yellow from the kitchen and whatever. And then we spread. Without gloves. No gloves. There's no such a thing as gloves.

[A]

So that was your job in the countryside? Mixing up poo from every species with some ash and then spreading them.

[C]

And one of the jobs. So we spread. By the time I finished, my hands smell like the feces from every species. Yeah. And you can't wash it, no matter how hard. And I can't. I was hungry, but I can't. I could not eat. I just couldn't. So I found some towel and just wrap up and I managed to eat my dinner.

[A]

How old were you when you were on the couch?

[C]

Sixteen.

[A]

Sixteen?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So all of this, I just. I can't imagine being you living over here and just hearing, what's his name, Mom. Dummy. Talk about letting go of all that individuality.

[C]

Warmth of collectivism.

[A]

Embrace the warmth of collectivism. Did you scream? Did you throw your own poop at the tv?

[C]

I was mad at myself. I Said because we were taught you have to toughen up to be a revolutionary, to be a good communist, you have to toughen up. I said, why I'm so weak? Why I'm so bourgeois, even though I have no idea what bourgeois is? That means bourgeois means you're not tough, you know, you are just too Western, too, like too soft. Too soft. That's word. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. You wanted to be the proletariat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wanted to be a part of the dream.

[C]

I actually blame myself. I just feel like I'm just not cut for the revolution. Even though whatever. Revolution, I have no idea. And that is how bad. You know, you can't think critically. You don't even think, why I'm here. Why should I be doing this shit?

[A]

Yeah, but to see so many Americans today, right here in 2026, to see them open to the warm embrace of collectivism, that surely must make you want to scream.

[C]

Of course, they had no idea. They think collective means we take care of each other. No, when you become a collective, you lost yourself. And then the whole thing was run by the party. The collective basically is a way of control. Everyone think the same way. They had this slogan. It's not that they are doing it under kind of heighten their agenda. They tell you we have to unify our thought, we have to unify our action. It's all from Mao's instruction. So collective means we all do the same thing, we all think the same way, we act the same way, we do whatever. If you do differently, individualism attempts to be crushed.

[A]

You conform.

[C]

Yeah, conformity is collectivism.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, so back to Loudoun County. Okay, I know, I'm sorry I'm bouncing around, but since we started there with that video there, you stood in front of the school board warning people that you had seen a lot of things happening in the school that were reminiscent

[C]

of the Cultural Revolution.

[A]

Right. And then you realized people don't know what the Cultural Revolution was. So they just kind of heard this nice lady behind a mask yell at him for 60 seconds and are not sure why.

[C]

No, they pro, but they probably clueless. Yeah, they know that. They kind of figured I'm comparing with something bad in communist in China.

[A]

What happened after that speech?

[C]

Yeah, I thought my job was down. Actually, I left soon after because I took time off from work, working at home.

[A]

What were you doing for money then?

[C]

I was trained as an information specialist. Like a library type of work. But not working in the library, just work managing the data. So. Yeah.

[A]

So you thought your job was in trouble. But did the media reach out?

[C]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is that I still working. So I rushed back and thinking I did my job, you know, I volunteered, I went there and that's it. And so the following day, Fox News called. That was really scary. That's scary because first of all, what a big deal. I just said whatever. But actually, the following day I hurt myself on all sorts of podcasts, like Charlie Kirk I listened to every day. I hurt myself. I said, oh my God, this is. But everyone knew what Cultural Revolution was. But when Fox News called, that was really the decision time that I have to say yes. If I say yes, I know that I no longer I become a public figure, you know, go on, Hannity. Yeah. And I'm worried about everything. I worry about people home, all my family is still in China and people here, my job, everything.

[A]

Had you written a book yet?

[C]

Oh, book. I have think about never in my mind and never even enter in my mind that I would write a book. I'm just a librarian and someone who is shy, you know, typical Chinese immigrant. Right. I never participated anything political. And I just want. Looking forward to a retirement. I'm looking for what I do when I've retired and you know, those kind of thing.

[A]

No, no, you were just minding your own business, doing your job. Now suddenly, suddenly we're locked down. Right. The BLM had happened. The George Floyd thing. Yeah, had happened. And you're essentially warning people that the things you saw in the 60s and 70s in China were happening right here in our country, right under our nose. What specifically were some of those things that alarmed you?

[C]

Yeah, actually it's not true that I paid no attention to politics. I think before 2020, I have already paid attention to what's going on. Racism, you know, racism. Everyone's racist. Racist. And it kind of remind me of China and 2020. 2020 is absolute, the turning point. Not only the BMM, but the lockdown, everything I just said, this is not the America that I remember coming here, you know, in the 80s. And yeah, 2020 is the point.

[A]

What scared you the most?

[C]

What scare me first is seeing, visually seeing what's going on on the street in Minneapolis, Los Angeles and Washington D.C. remind me of the Cultural Revolution. And I would say it's not as bad as Cultural Revolution was. Not as bad because there's no car to burn. At least they have no car. There's no cars, period. So at least it's smokeless destruction.

[A]

Mostly peaceful. Mostly smokeless.

[C]

Smokeless. And then I Saw the lockdown, and I have to tell you, I was like, really? Americans, These are you the free. You know, the freedom fighter. You complied and you just gave in just like this. And that really, really bothered me. I am one of the two people that refuse to get vaccine at work.

[A]

Why?

[C]

I don't want vaccine, and I don't want someone to force me to take vaccine. And I have come up with all sorts of ideas, excuses, and then they say, religious reason. What religion? My own religion. But I know I have a little bit protection of the dei, right? They cannot go too hard.

[A]

All right. Look at you playing the DEI card.

[C]

Yeah. I said, no, I'm not going to take it. I'm just not going to. But if. Seriously, if I were, I have to say, you know, you're probably great. If I were white and if I were a white male, I don't think they were back down. Then you resign today and leave. Okay. Did that disappoint you that I didn't play the card?

[A]

It is important in a way, because. No.

[B]

She said, did she disappoint you that

[A]

she played the card?

[B]

And I think the answer is no.

[A]

Right? No. Yeah. No. Good grit. Look, well, first of all, I don't know what the rules were then. I know everywhere I looked, I saw acronyms. I saw crt. I saw dei, I saw esg, I saw blm. I saw a lot of posters. You talked about the posters. All these things seemed. It felt like they were happening at once.

[C]

No, it came out all together. That's why they were everywhere. But now they came together in 2020. That's why it's like a tsunami. It's really like the tsunami.

[A]

Well, that is the collective, the pressure to conform and fall in line. And I don't. Look, reasonable people might disagree about this specific vaccine, but I think a lot of other people get uncomfortable when you talk about a mandate. And that's what it sounds. You know, it's one thing to have a choice. It's another thing not to have a choice.

[C]

And I said to. I'm working at home. At home. Why should I take that vaccine? I'm not going to work and endanger any other people. It's just. There's no reason. Reason is out of the window and they demand that you comply. And that's communist. That's just. Oh, my God, that remind me of communist China so much. And I said, no, I'm not going to do it.

[A]

Is part of where you're coming from? I mean, I would be if I had lived Your life. Very suspicious of authority. I'd be very suspicious of people in uniforms, whether it's a white coat or an army uniform, telling me what to do. And I think maybe a lot of people in this country who didn't share anything close to your experience don't have that suspicion yet. Every new generation kind of has to figure it out for themselves.

[C]

I guess so. I guess so. And it's all for your own good. That's the same. And that's why they can push it so, so bad. That's why Communism is so deceptive. And that's why I feel like that's my. I have this obligation to tell American people, yeah, Chinese people bought the same deception. They thought it was good for them. They said they can get something and then nothing. And not only that, many of them perished. But the story is not told because we don't have control of our educational system.

[A]

Where does it start? I mean, you can't just flip the switch and have a whole people immediately singing out of the same hymn book. Like, does it start with language? Does it start. Like, where does the manipulation. Where does the pressure.

[C]

Where? Here in China.

[A]

Both places. Because that was your point, right? I remember one day I was traveling, and so I didn't quite understand what was happening on social media, but within 48 hours prior, everybody was putting this black box next to their name, you know.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, it was.

[A]

It was for Black Lives Matter, and it was, you know, on Facebook. And I, you know, I've got 6 or 7 million people who are on that page. And many of them wanted to know why I hadn't blacked out my face. I said, well, I don't understand. Why would I? And suddenly, for me, it was a moment where I felt like, oh, you know what? This is a lot of pressure to send a signal that you're with us. And I remember thinking, oh, you know what? That isn't good. That kind of manipulation, that kind of pressure to fall in line, to comply, to conform. Right. That's a step closer to the collective. Anyway, that bugged me. What bugged you?

[C]

Well, by then, it's obvious that's you. Probably the first time you experienced that, right? That kind of a pressure.

[A]

Well, I felt. I know when I feel manipulated, I like to think I'm immune to it because I work in advertising. I understand how.

[C]

Oh, okay. How.

[A]

I understand how persuasion works. But this wasn't advertising.

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

This was the real world. And this was like a lot of people putting a lot of pressure on millions of Others to check a box.

[C]

Okay. In China it's different because the Chinese Communist Party took over power by violence, by armed struggle. They use weapons, they use military force to take over. But that would not work in America. I don't think it will ever work in America that we have a coup from the military and we got 380

[A]

million goods guns in this country.

[C]

I know, but here they have to go through this deception. And this is little by little. Just thinking back, just the way I experienced. I came here in 1980s and that was the tail end of America's first cultural revolution, which is the counterculture that ended when the Vietnam War ended. But that was the beginning. So this is the continuation. This is BMM and woke. This is American Cultural Revolution 2.0. But I can remember going to School University in 1989. Yeah, I went to a Western Kentucky university to study English. I did not experience anything that is. Remind me something China. But then I went to Florida and so one of the class I remember so vividly and it's a class about special education. And that was the time when the act. I can't remember the whole bill or disability. No, no, no.

[B]

Yeah, Americans with Disabilities Act.

[C]

Yes, that was. And then they have all this special ed and whatever. So we had that class. And then the teacher said, so now we have to do this in school. You know, we have all this fun, but we have to be careful that we have to watch what we say. We cannot see blind. We have to see people with vision impaired. Vision impaired, whatever. I was so impressed. I'm serious. I said American people are really nice people. They want to be nice, right? Comply. That's the first step. Blind is blind. They've been used for centuries now. We can't.

[A]

Can't do it anymore.

[C]

Yeah, and then, and then, and then we have to do this and then change. Do you know what is the. This is my favorite story. Do you know what is the correct term for people have eye trouble? Okay. Vision trouble. Blind, according to Stanford University. This is now the correct way, the correct terminology.

[A]

Did you ever watch George Carlin when you came over here? Do you know that name?

[C]

No.

[A]

He's a very famous comedian and he talks a lot about language. He talks about what today we would call post traumatic stress disorder. And then they took the disorder off. But prior to that, I think it was. What was it in the Second World War? Combat fatigue.

[B]

Combat fatigue.

[A]

Combat fatigue syndrome. But oh, comeback in World War I when it really became a phenomenon, they called it what it was. Shell shock.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You were shell shocked.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

It just seems like on the journey to the warm embrace of collectivism, we have to go through some rituals. We must comply in many different ways.

[C]

Oh, vision imperative or whatever. Okay, I'll do it. Homeless.

[A]

No, no, not homeless anymore. Unhoused.

[C]

I know I said harmless, but unhoused home means some. You know, that's the thing. You talk funny, you listen funny. What I'm saying is that you comply, right? I'll say I'm okay. That's okay. I don't say blind. I just say vision impaired. And you comply step one, and then you comply, and then you'll comply until that's what you're leading to, what you're talking about. And homeless. I know it's unhoused.

[A]

It's unhoused. But look, all of that, you know, I think a lot of people just kind of go, listen, it's, it's well intended people. Oh, good intention, trying to be mannerly. But then you take it into the next level. Like the homeless thing is another level, because there's many billions of dollars being spent to correct the problem and it's failing. So now everybody's got money in this and the language is shifting under our feet. Then of course, you get to the real sensitive thing, which was the whole transgender movement and pronouns. And now we have these giant struggle sessions in this country over. You know, Jordan Peterson mouthed off a couple years ago. Right. So that's what I'm getting at. When you look at those linguistic gymnastics that we're putting ourselves through really quickly, like just in the period of a couple of years, words don't mean what they used to mean anymore. That. Is there a lesson from your youth in that? Was there something similar in the Cultural Revolution?

[C]

The Cultural Revolution, it's not quite. You have to understand when the American Communists, they're not in total control yet. They don't have total power yet. They're in the process of seizing power in China. They have power. So they don't have to be so subtle. They don't have to be working so hard to manipulate that term. They do, but not as much because they can tell you you just have to believe. And most people just, most people, majority of them, comply because if you don't, you're arrested or you're imprisoned or sent to the labor camp. That's one major difference that I think the Marxists, the communists here in the west, they are 10 times sophisticated. They have to.

[A]

Well, and there's a difference between a cancel culture where you lose your status or maybe privileges. You were in the ultimate cancel culture, where they just walk you behind the barn and put one in your ear.

[C]

Exactly. You don't have to argue. You can argue. So that is a big difference. I think that because they are not in total control yet, they are still in the process of getting power. They have to be so manipulative. They have to.

[A]

Manipulative.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

By the way, when did you learn English?

[C]

Oh, I, I. Okay. When I was in the countryside. I have no hope. I don't know. One day I will get. I never knew that one day I would go back to the city and. And live a city life comparison.

[A]

When you were mixing the poop with the ashes, that's when you learned English.

[C]

You have. No, no, no. You have. I never gave up one dream, even though I know I have no dream. You know, I was dreaming that one day I thought it was so funny. One day I will become an interpreter and go to Albania. Do you know why?

[A]

No.

[C]

No. Because in our international news back then, there are three countries. North Korea, North Vietnam and Albania. And to me, the most exotic country was Albania. Albania. But I never gave up that dream of going somewhere. And then after the Cultural Revolution, I could go to college. It's the hell with Albania. You know, I want to go to America.

[A]

There's that title, the Hell with Albania. I have a dream to translate English to Chinese in Albania. But you wound up in Bowling Green.

[C]

Yeah, but I studied English in college, and then I taught English in a teacher's training college. That's why I met my friend who brought me here.

[A]

What's her name?

[C]

Pat. Pat Nave. Yeah. She's a great lady.

[A]

We'll dedicate this episode to her. Because really, you know what? We're talking about the biggest ideas in the world. Gee, right? We're talking about 50 million dead, 20 million dead over here. We're talking about the wealth of nations and the fate of countries. But in the end, what is this life but a friend putting her hand on your shoulder and saying, come over here. Try it over here. It's not Albania, but it's nice.

[C]

That's why I can sit here and talk to you. Because of her. But she left too early.

[A]

Where's gratitude on your list of virtues?

[C]

I think this is something that is so lacking here in this culture now. I'm so grateful that I'm here. I can't. I don't know. Just don't bring me to tears. I'm so grateful I'm here and I'm just like. Because of This. I will do everything I can to save this country. And when I say people, save this country for what? To restore it. That's what it is to restore it. To really not like my shirt. America is good. I want to make that dream alive for future generations. It has been so good to me, and I want that dream to live on.

[A]

Can China be good? Can China be safe?

[C]

China can be. Without ccp. Without ccp. I don't even know my own culture because I grew up in the CCP's culture. I learned the Chinese character simplified by the damn Chinese Communist Party. I could not even write the original script, which is still in practice in Taiwan or Hong Kong. I don't know anything about Chinese culture. I did not read Chinese classics. I read Mao's little book back and forth and back and forth in every line. And that is. They robbed me of being Chinese. That is how bad it is. And today a lot of people go there and they think they experience Chinese culture. No, you go to Taiwan if you want to experience Chinese culture. You go to Japan if you want to experience the culture that originate from China. When I went to Japan, I was like, oh, my God. They really took care of the heritage. And even though it's modified, but the root is in China.

[A]

What is your favorite place in the world?

[C]

Oh, my favorite place.

[A]

Yeah. Your favorite place to be.

[C]

America. No, no, no.

[A]

More specific.

[C]

Oh, I don't know. I love Virginia. Virginia has been my home for so long. It is a state of funding. Founding fathers. Land of founding fathers. Now we are under communist rule.

[A]

Do you really think it's that bad or are you just trying to say stuff to agitate me?

[C]

It's so bad that as soon as she. The new Governor Spamberger in power, within the 24 hours, she want to wipe out everything and she want to restart everything.

[A]

Be specific. What's your gripe with her?

[C]

Okay, her attack on first, the Second Amendment especially, and then there's a lot of bills that they try to enact. I don't get everything. But one thing is now if you complain about Islam, it's criminal. That's communism. That's absolutely communism. And they really want to destroy the Second Amendment. I think they go after second Amendment even before the first is because they know you can't have first without second.

[A]

What do you think the most important amendment is?

[C]

I think second, without that, they kill so many Chinese. Okay, this is what I have to say. The Chinese starved to death in front of the. What you call that warehouse of grains back in the 50s and 60s. Why can't they just go there and storm the warehouse?

[A]

Take the food.

[C]

Take the food. But they didn't.

[A]

No guns.

[C]

No guns. No guns.

[A]

Okay, so you're a Second amendment kind of gal. You're a First amendment kind of gal. You've got the declaration on your.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

On your shawl.

[C]

And if you can ask me. Yes, please see this. And there's something else I have to tell you. And I think one of the things that I did not even think much until I have to say in the past, maybe past 10 years, I did not understand what makes America so great. Where our liberty is from. I did not dwell on it because I was busy getting a job, you know, buying a house. A bigger house and bigger house, whatever. Why we have the liberty, it's because it's said in our Declaration of Independence that our liberty is from our creator, is from God, our rights are from there. And that is why I think that I never even thought about it. That's why we're free. If we can, of course we can keep it. In China it's all government. Government tell you whatever, you just do it. You don't argue, you just do it. And so we all become like we talk about one of the collective. That's why here is individual. Because each of us were made in the God's image.

[A]

What did you think these last couple days? I assume you flip around the tv, you watch the news channel.

[C]

No, I don't watch TV anymore. Just X, Just.

[A]

Oh, you're just on X.

[C]

Just X.

[A]

Formerly known as Twitter.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you see the Kings? The King no Kings rally? Did you see that? 8 million people all over the world. What do you make of that?

[C]

It's discouraging when you think about there are so many people being indoctrinated. I think the real problem, I think the real problem is the church. I think if I blame on anything, the first thing I blame is on the church. Yeah, because they lost their way long time ago and because of them. And then the second I think we lost our roots, get pulled out. And it's educational system, that educational system has been under control by Marxists as early as 1920s. It's a century 1920s. And if you go back to the person John Dewey might be probably before him as there are others, that is how they got public education. And the now private, now Christian educational system, Catholic church schools, they all become the tools for Marxism. They indoctrinate generations, generations of Americans. And through this, you heard that a long march through Institutions. And where are those people go? Where did they go? They're now in charge of all our institutions.

[A]

That's worth just explaining a little more so people understand the Long March wasn't a long walk. It was an attempt to essentially infiltrate.

[C]

Yeah, actually there's more story. The Long March was a long march by the communist CCP to escape the encirclement by the Nationalists. They were driven out of their base in southern China and they have to go west. They have like 5,000 miles march in order to escape.

[A]

So is that.

[C]

It's from China, it's from ccp.

[A]

But that's what they're referring to is a long physical march.

[C]

But this was because the western communists love it so much. A German Marxists use this in this now famous phrase, long march through little by little. Infiltration. Yes, infiltration, little by little.

[A]

That's how I always use it.

[C]

I know, but they use that term that originate from the ccp. That's very telling. They're all the same. They're all Marxists, they're all communists.

[A]

If you were queen of the world, aside from flicking your fingers and, and filling everyone's brain with what you filled both your books with, what would you want everyone to take from your lived experience? Your life? What's the big big lesson to this country right now in 2026?

[C]

Yeah, we're talking about people here. My book is not for the Chinese.

[A]

No, yeah, heck with them. But it's us right now.

[C]

What save America?

[A]

What save us?

[C]

Exactly. I think, okay, that's a big question. How can that formulate so that. Okay, I really want people to know there's no Utopia, there's no heaven on earth. No zero. If you want heaven, that's the God's kingdom that's over there. It's not here. If you gave up that idea because that's the idea that the communists push on people. We're going to make this a fair world. We're going to make this world that's good for everyone, that everyone's at the table. You heard that all the time. There's no such thing. That is the way to lure you into this idea of collectivism. So you gave up your individual rights, you gave up your thoughts, you become part of it because you thought you're going to be in that world. And that is kind of hard to tell everyone. But I want them to read my book, to learn the real history. The real history that the Chinese thought the same way and what they end up with.

[A]

See, somewhere between blindness and vision impaired we have this other thing called willful blindness. Yeah, that's the decision. You know, when I think about your mom and dad deciding, Choosing. Yeah, Communism, you know, it's.

[C]

You can't blame them. They can't really, really want to do something good for people. They do. They did.

[A]

Yeah, they did. Then later, and then the question becomes, what do you do when you find out once the scales fall from your eyes?

[C]

I know.

[A]

Okay, thank you. You're the ostrich. You got your head out of the sand. Now what?

[C]

Okay, now we have this option. And that's why I bother to even write two books. I may get another one. Because I want people to understand so that we do something now. Or you find out yourself. By then it will be too late. Like my parents, when they found out this revolution is not what they're thinking, what they had, I. What they understood. Too late. Too late.

[A]

Okay, that. To me, that's the big lesson. It's. It's like you ever lean back on your chair a little too far, like, and then you feel like you're going to go back and you can't, you know, like, you pass the tipping point. You're to going. Gravity is now in charge. You're going to fall. I think the most poignant, poetic and horrifying time to be alive is in that moment. We are there when you start to fall, but you haven't hit the floor yet. But it might be too late. Yeah, it might be too late. That's scary. Is it? Okay, and that's my last question to you.

[C]

I think we're there.

[A]

You think we're there?

[C]

We are there.

[A]

Is it too late?

[C]

Nothing can be too late. Okay, so this is how I understood that. Yeah, I may be wrong. I think we fell off the cliff already. We are looking for a soft landing no matter what we do. Even if today we switch, make the switch and then we come back into normal, into the 1980s, that when I came here, when everything, my memory seems to be just kind of normal, it's no longer there. We cannot be. So many things has fundamentally been changed, altered in this country. So soft landing is what we hope for. If we want to restore America completely. That will take decades. But now we're just hoping for a soft landing. But that save America. It is because we have been, I mean, conservative. Sorry, we've been asleep for so long. I have been asleep for so long. I did not speak up until. Until it's so late. Right. Because I was just taking like autopilot, just doing things because nothing can go wrong in this country. So I take responsibility. I did not tell my son the horrors of communism because I want to forget about, because it's over there. And I did not tell my friends. I did not take my co workers about the horror of communism.

[A]

Maybe you should have.

[C]

I should have because I did not think that this, this is America. Nothing can go wrong.

[A]

Well, look, as humans, in the interest of self preservation, we need to forget the times that brought us the most pain. We can't wallow in the past. But if we forget, then somebody else gets to write our history. This show you're on right now is called the Way I Heard It. It should be called the Way I Remember it because so much of what I wind up talking to people about is how they. How do you remember your girlhood? Right. How? And then how do you talk about it today? And how do your memories, you know, conflict? Maybe from time to time, maybe your neighbor remembered it differently and lived through the same thing. It just seems to me right now that in this country, so many people, everybody's armed with the same cell phone, the same social platforms. You know, we all have the way we heard it, the way we remember it, and we're all pretty sure we're right and we're all really loud and we're all marching around and talking about kings and collectivism and everything else. And here you are in all of it. I mean, is it that your real honest hope, the best case scenario is a soft landing for now?

[C]

Yes, for now. I think it would take so long for us to go back almost the same time it took them almost a century to get us here and decades to go back to where this country is supposed to be, where the founding father designed it to be. I know it's not that simple. It's not like the funding Father say 1, 2, 3. We go to 1, 2, 3. But closer to the original funding, I think will take a long time.

[A]

Last question. Maybe.

[C]

I hope it's not. I'm hopeful. I fight this fight because I believe in it. But I know for sure it's not something we can turn around overnight.

[A]

But you've seen what happens to a culture that tears down its statues, that changes the names on its schools, and that crosses out big chunks of its history. That's what Mao did. Yeah, right.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And you're watching that happen here too, so I can understand why you're not totally hopeful all the time. I mean, it's got to be. It must be very, very chilling.

[C]

Yes. And this book, my second book is really want people to focus, I think more and more because of Trump. I think more and more people realize that CCP is our really our no longer competitor, it's our adversary. I say enemy, just get it out. Enemy. It's our enemy because that's how they teach the American, the Chinese people. And so that's a good thing, that we consider that a threat. But this book is not about that. It's how we get here. How we get here is the story of Americans never understood communism. And because we never understood communism, now we create a monster overseas and we created monster here, which is the woke ideology.

[A]

So how are we. What are we doing wrong right now in terms of emboldening or enabling China to be the worst version of itself

[C]

or the worst version of evil empire? Much more so worse than Soviet Union. What's your question? How did we get here?

[A]

Well, I'm just thinking. Did you see my interview with Jan Yakalik? Okay, so, you know, the word seems to be getting out that there's a $9 billion trade going on with human organs.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And that the CCP is essentially organizing it. Now, back to my earlier point, it's one thing to think it, it's another thing to see it and then know it. So now, like, once you know that's happening, whether it's the Uyghurs or whether it's the Falun Gong or whether now, you know, a lot of people don't know.

[C]

That's the thing. And why they don't know. I think it's both the communists here try to just. Just either water down or just hide it. And the ccp so they. Most people don't know. Most people do not know. It's not like they all know. They don't care. They don't know. And a lot of them don't even want to understand because they just. Too much.

[A]

That's the difference.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's one thing to be ignorant because you don't know. It's another thing to be willfully blind because they'd rather.

[C]

It's just too much for them to even to dwell on it. But here's something else I want to say that they don't understand. We don't understand communism. When I say we because I'm American now. Yeah. Otherwise I say they, you. But there's something. I think it's very important. I don't want to name names, but I want to name this name because I was like, what, okay, Bill O'Reilly? No, he's a conservative. And I Watch his show. And I like a lot of his political analysis. He wrote a book, I don't know. You are aware he has a new book called Confronting Evil. And in the COVID it's basically Hitler, Stalin, Stalin, Mao and a little Khomeini. Confronting Evil. Yeah. So the other thing I want to say is that most Americans don't understand there is an evil out there. They just somehow has trouble understand. Okay. So in his conclusion of his book, he said we need allies to fight against evils and we need to ally with ccp.

[A]

And you think he's wrong?

[C]

I think it's just this is just this actually showed why I should have this book and people should read this book. Even today we're talking not talking about Democrats, we're not talking about leftists, we're talking about conservatives. Still don't understand, you know that. But we have Trump. We have Trump.

[A]

You're a fan.

[C]

He absolutely understands. He understands. And he understands how to take it down. Not have a war with China, but he understand how to undermine it and take down indirectly. And I think we have a much better chance today than ever that we might just be able, if not take it down, weaken it so that it's no longer a threat, direct threat to the free world.

[A]

What do you say then to the argument? And I know, I know we're out of time. It's all good. No, I'm just so. I mean, she's so. I guess she's so sassy. I know, she's so interesting and she's got such great shirt, sartorial splendor.

[B]

You gotta listen better.

[A]

Great fashion choice. What do you say? Never mind, O'Reilly. I mean, he's sold millions and millions of books, you know, and he does have an audience. And good for you for speaking candidly about it. But I know there's an argument in this country that says, look, we don't want to have a war with China. And you know, yes, they're an adversary and yes, we're not aligned. But, you know, Nixon opened it up and they're a huge trading partner and the NBA is exporting their. Right.

[C]

Hollywood, too.

[A]

Hollywood. So the argument is we keep the glass nosed, we keep a perestroika, and we do it through these social channels. We make them more like us by exporting America.

[C]

That's what Clinton tried to convince us.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know, I have to say, I thought for a short while, I believe it, too. I went to China, you know, in the late 90s and early 2000. It was amazing. People were Able to talk openly about cultural Revolution, about the problem with the government. It only lasted just shortly and it's all gone now. I talk to my friends in China in cold. You can't just. Yeah, you have to. So we use words so that we kind of get there. So we kind of understand, because surveillance.

[A]

Yeah. So the government is surveilling.

[C]

Yeah. All of them. Yeah. Especially WeChat. That's the. They provide this great tool that you can talk to your family and friends in China free. Everything is.

[A]

Everything's listened to.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What about Tick Tock? You got that?

[C]

I don't know about now. I think I did not follow it. I just don't trust it because it's a Chinese product. I don't trust it.

[A]

What do you trust?

[C]

That's the problem.

[A]

There it is.

[C]

Who do we trust? Trust God. That's the only thing I think.

[A]

There you go. Anything you wish I would ask you that? I didn't.

[C]

We never talk about that, by the way. It's too late. We talk about.

[A]

Oh, what did I write down? I wrote soft landing.

[B]

Why people are migrating to the cities.

[A]

No, it's not too late.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

No, it's my show. I can do whatever I want.

[C]

Give me five minutes and let me explain.

[A]

Okay, five minutes.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

In a row. Okay.

[C]

Remember, I talk about the. The peasants.

[A]

I want people to understand the question you're answering since I asked it an hour ago. Yeah, but this came out. I saw a guy from the Brookings Institute, big think tank, and he was giving a lecture, this is like nine years ago. And the question was, the topic was China rising. And everybody in the audience was very concerned about its military might and what that might portend for us. And this guy said, look, sure, we think about it at the highest levels all of the time, but China's busy. China's got 400 million people moving to the cities. That's 100 million more people than we have living here. So it's very difficult for me to get my head around what that would do to a country, to have the whole country aside.

[C]

It's just amazing.

[A]

It's just mind boggling.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

All right, go ahead.

[C]

Okay. The story. I have to go back to the beginning. That was the land reform, that peasants were happy.

[A]

Make it interesting sheet. Make it interesting.

[C]

They got land, and five years later, it's all taken away. Okay. And then they all got into the people's commune. Yeah, Commune means you work for the people. What people? The government. Yeah, the government.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. So they were so poor and many of them died of starvation. But even when I was in the countryside, they are so, so, so poor. They are desperately poor. Those are the people that we're talking about that going to cities. But they are not just going to cities. Mao did something else that was so sinister. He implemented a system called hukou system, household registration. You register where you were at the time. If you're a peasant, you register as a peasant. You will be peasant forever, ever, meaning ever. And if you're a city resident of one city, you cannot move to another. I can't just. When I was in China, I can't just say, I go to Beijing. I want to live in Beijing. You can't. Okay? That system is still in effect. So when the China market start to open up, when American business went to China, do you know the hourly rate for wages? For wages, 47 cents an hour. That's what they're paying for the Chinese labor. And that's what the peasants. But for the peasants, that's heaven. Because they could not have anything. They could not keep anything for themselves. So that was heaven. So they all poured in. First is people with little skill. But a lot of the jobs, first of all were jobs with low skill. So they could not. They went to the city, but they could not stay. They can stay, but they are not part of the city. Their children cannot go to school. They can't enjoy any services the city provides. If the kids go to school, they have to pay. So that is one thing that most of them overlook. So what happened to the peasant class is that the family separated. The young people, husband or even parents went to the city, work in the factory for very little. But for them, that's money that they can keep in their pocket. And their parents and older parents take care of the kids. That is destruction of Chinese families. And so there is a thing that is. You can even. There is a BBC documentary about this unique phenomenon that's only happened in China that billions of trips were made around the Chinese New Year. Chinese New Year is, you know, every year is different, but it's gong e f choy. That's right, exactly. But that's when people that worked for a whole year, they went back to home to, you know, reunion with the family. And that is like hundreds of millions of people on the move for about a month. They go there and then they come back. And these people are the cheap laborers. The backbone for the Chinese rise, and they get very little today. You know, Tim Cook said, oh, we are still in China. Well, he moved some of the Operations out. It's not because of the wage. Sure. Do you know today's wage? Like less than four, five dollars an hour? You tell me. It's not about the wage. That is what the Chinese government, together with the Western or American capitalism, they got rich because of those peasants. The peasants live in the subhuman environment. They have like a huge place with roll beds. I know someone who made Christmas trees for America. They live in like 10 people per room. They have no bathroom or with hot water. It's just like a dorm. They are making like whatever $2 back. Then she quit. $2 an hour. And this is really. We participated in it. We, you and I, because we bought the cheap stuff.

[A]

That's my next question. Including this table. Okay. I mean, and so look, what's the solution? I mean, Bill O'Reilly is going over there to say we ought to partner with him to make the world a better place. It seems like on the other side, we gotta get the NBA out. We gotta raise hell about the Uyghurs. We gotta stop the organ harvesting. We have to stop. Like, we have to back away from. Would you support a movement that just said we just gotta get off the Chinese title? Pardon me, but absolutely.

[C]

And not only that, they make awful products. They make shit. When I go to. I love this. I can curse in California when I went to a Chinese or Asian grocery store. I make sure the food I buy is not made in China. Why? It's not safe. It's just not safe. They make the worst thing for profit, but it's not them. The problem again, is not them. It's us. Now, today, American people, American citizens become consumers. Right?

[A]

They become consumers before they become citizens before they come.

[C]

They only care about their bottom line. I just think that I would pay more if we can get something made here. I will. Absolutely. I understand. That's how we sold America. That we did not enrage the Chinese people. That who really made all this possible. They were still impoverished. We made the CCP rich. That make me so mad.

[A]

Before I thank you and say goodbye, just one more question.

[C]

Was I. I'm glad we covered that.

[A]

Yeah, well, no, no, we got it.

[C]

Five minutes.

[A]

Was I like, was it racist of me to be pretty sure that the virus came from a lab?

[C]

Call it China virus. Like Trump, it is from China. It is from the lab from China. China. And it's not by accident, I guess. I don't know. But I think that's what it is.

[A]

That's how we're gonna close this two hour conversation. You're gonna leave that hanging out there? Do you know what that's called? That's called book number three.

[C]

Book number three, that's what. Because nothing is accidental in China. Nothing. Communist China. And look at the timing. Look at everything. You think it's just accidentally just escaped the lab?

[A]

No, I don't. I don't. But you know what? It was a good way to lose a lot of friends here five years ago. Start mouthing off. That kind of. That kind of thought.

[C]

It's so scary that so many people just shut up because they're scared. I know. We have been fallen so far. So far, yes.

[A]

I'll close with what I opened with. I've heard this message before, but I haven't heard it so persuasively articulated by somebody who's lived it. Your first book is called Mal's America. Your most recent book is called Made in America, which, of course, is an explanation of how China continues to be China with our help. A lot of inconvenient truths in here. You're a jagged little pill, as we say. You've probably upset a lot of people, but I'm so glad you're here.

[C]

Well, that's how you wick them up. You don't just pat them.

[A]

You say, come here. Yeah, give them a smack. Would you autograph this book for me?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you do that?

[C]

With honor. Yes.

[A]

Okay. Here. God. Sign it right there for me. Chuck, I know this is a topic near and dear to your heart. You have any final questions for our guest before I send her on her way?

[B]

Well, you asked it about TikTok, and she gave me the answer that I expected. You know, that's the thing that I was really worried about. But I believe this message is very important and people need to listen to it, read the book and be aware. I'm being more and more careful myself

[A]

about where I buy stuff. Your handwriting is terrible. What language is this?

[C]

I never signed anything in China because there's nothing to sign and I have to learn to. To.

[B]

What does it say?

[A]

Can you say, no, I can't read it. I think it's her name.

[C]

I don't know it's my name. You said sign.

[A]

I did say sign. I didn't say put an electrocardiogram in my.

[C]

I tried to be fancy and it took me a long time to get there. I'm telling you, I can only print when I got here.

[B]

Can you write your name in Chinese?

[A]

Yeah, I was just gonna say, can you write my name in Mandarin? Mike?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

[A]

Give me that.

[C]

Now?

[A]

Yeah, right now.

[C]

Just that.

[A]

Well, I don't know. Whatever you want. And then I'll just say something.

[C]

Let me say. Yeah, think about it afterwards. We're still on the air.

[A]

Yeah, we're on the air. I want this to happen on camera.

[C]

Don't put me on the spot. I have to think. A message.

[A]

How about something like for Mike, the most insightful interviewer I've ever had the pleasure to chat with. P.S. you're no Bill O'Reilly. Something like that.

[C]

Let me do it later.

[A]

All right, you do it later. All right. That's a she Van fleet.

[C]

But did she never finish his story?

[A]

It wasn't going anywhere. All right, go ahead, Chuck. Go ahead. Chuck gets the last word on this one.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. If you can buy American. Buy American. And if you can buy from anywhere else other than China, buy from anywhere else other than China. I'm trying to do that in my life and I've been for a while.

[C]

That's what we all should do. Absolutely. Even though it's very difficult.

[A]

It is difficult.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And if you need a human organ, don't go to China. That's a very bad.

[B]

That's a bad move.

[A]

And this shirt, by the way, made by our friends at American Giant.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Proud sponsor of this program. And that is amazing.

[C]

Yeah. The Made in America. America is good.

[A]

We the people, be the people.

[C]

Be the people. That's right. That's right. That's better.

[A]

Not bad. Rhe, thank you for coming by. What a pleasure.

[C]

Thank you so much. This is not just a pleasure. It's so much fun. Thank you.

[A]

Well, look, if you're not laughing, the joke's on you, right?

[C]

I know, I know.

[A]

Amen. When you leave a review, only five stars will do. Not just one or just two or just three. We were hoping.

[C]

As in four more.

[A]

As in a one more than a four. Oh, please.

[C]

One more than four.

[A]

Just a quick review with five stars too. For all my you five stars will do.

[B]

The way I heard it is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[A]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[C]

I don't know if you knew this,

[A]

but anyone can get the same Premium

[B]

Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[A]

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[C]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per intro rate. First 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms at mintmobile. Com.