492: Jon Erwin—Young Washington

Summary

Podcast Summary
The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe
Episode 492: Jon Erwin—Young Washington
Release Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Rowe sits down with filmmaker Jon (John) Erwin, acclaimed for his work directing meaningful, historically rich movies—most recently Young Washington. Their discussion explores the making of the film, which shines a light on the rarely examined early life of George Washington, tracing how hardship, failure, and self-forged grit shaped him into the “indispensable man” before he became a household name. As the U.S. prepares to celebrate its 250th anniversary, Young Washington seeks to bring history to life for a modern audience, inviting viewers not just to learn but to reflect on the qualities of leadership, the complexities of the American story, and the importance of resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Tell Washington’s “Origin Story”?

• Focus on Early Adversity: Most stories on Washington start with the Revolution or are “rooted in mythology” (cherry tree, can’t tell a lie), but Erwin wanted to show the lesser-known, formative years (07:48, 10:08, 16:00).
• The Power of Failure: Both Rowe and Erwin discuss how great leaders—Washington, Churchill—are “forged much more in failure than they are in success” (10:08).
  • Quote: “He learned this new style of warfare of harass and outlast the enemy that he would end up using against the British. So … when you’re failing, you’re just learning how to win incrementally.” (43:03, Jon Erwin)
• Lessons in Leadership: Washington’s journey stresses humility, public ownership of mistakes, and the evolution from personal ambition to genuine service.

2. Making Young Washington

• A Decade in the Making: Erwin worked on the film for ten years, balancing commercial success with a passion for meaningful stories (02:06, 11:47).
  • Quote: “Inspiration is kind of internal and quiet. …I’m just gonna tell the stories that are most moving to me.” (11:33, Jon Erwin)
• Behind the Scenes: Erwin shares struggles with Hollywood, working independently, and the rollercoaster of hits (I Can Only Imagine, House of David) and setbacks (COVID shutting theaters).
• The Goal: Tell America’s story in “as gripping and entertaining a way possible…to inspire the audience to embrace optimism again and embrace belief in each other and in things that are imperfect, like America, but still absolutely worth believing in and worth perfecting together.” (27:24, Jon Erwin)

3. History as Emotional Archeology

• Making History Engaging: Both agree that history often “sucks” due to dry presentations; the goal is to make it visceral and personal (24:00).
  • Quote: “Do everything you can to put the audience there. Like, what would this have been like in a visceral way, which is what we really tried to do with Young Washington.” (24:35, Jon Erwin)
• Compare & Contrast: Discusses Aaron Sorkin’s “paint a portrait, not take a photograph” approach to dramatize true stories compellingly while remaining faithful to their spirit (29:11, Jon Erwin).

4. Washington's Crucible—Formative Failures

• Fort Necessity & “The Shot Heard Round the World”: Washington’s botched command at Fort Necessity and the accidental start of a global war (Seven Years’ War) were pivotal in shaping his maturity and humility as a leader (38:00–46:56).
• Handling Historical Ambiguity: Disputes about who fired the first shot at Jumanville Glen, and dramatic liberty taken in presenting complex, uncertain history faithfully but engagingly (48:15, 49:54).

5. On Storytelling & Art

• Finishing a Work: Whether you’re a “Picasso” (done quickly, don’t look back) or “Cézanne” (never done, always tweaking), a piece of art and historical interpretation must eventually be set free to the world (16:53–19:05).
• The Shallow End and the Deep Dive: “All you can offer in two hours is the shallow end of the pool. But if you do it right, it’s going to make a lot of people want to take a deeper dive.” (28:53, Mike Rowe)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Leadership and Failure:

“Most every truly formidable leader, whether it’s Washington or Churchill…was forged much more in failure than they were in success and much more difficulty than they were in ease. But the defining difference was their ability to hug the cactus and own it.”
— Jon Erwin (10:08)

On Patriotism and Historical Complexity:

“America, while imperfect, is … worth believing in. … They set these crazy goals, and even in forging the Constitution … they had that self-awareness. That’s an incredible thing.”
— Jon Erwin (27:24, 74:32)

On Washington’s Development:

“He was not this boring, stoic. This dude’s personality raged. His quest for stoicism and self mastery was almost like the lid on a volcano. … He learned to control this massive personality.”
— Jon Erwin (51:50)

On the Role of Scarcity:

“Isn’t it interesting when there’s no longer scarcity of knowledge? … Back then … Fairfax … had 3,000 books, called them his true tenants.”
— Jon Erwin (67:16)

Jon’s Family Story—A Heroism Parallel:

“My grandfather received the Congressional Medal of Honor in World War II. … Freedom isn’t free. … He bore the marks of this statement.”
— Jon Erwin (61:14–62:39) “It was his wife. She comes in… kisses him and says, welcome home, I love you. That gave him the will to live.”
— Jon Erwin (83:28–84:19)

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Segment Timestamps

• Early Framing & Motive (00:04–04:49): Why Young Washington, the need to demythologize the Revolution, and telling unknown stories of famous figures.
• How the Film Came to Life (11:01–15:30): Erwin on inspiration, screen success, and personal risk.
• Washington’s Early Years & Lessons from Failure (38:00–46:56): Fort Necessity, the French and Indian War, “shot heard round the world,” and Washington’s humility.
• Artistic Responsibility & Storytelling (16:53–19:05): On finishing creative work, balancing facts, and emotional truth.
• On Movie’s Purpose & Impact (24:00–28:53): History in films, emotional resonance, and inspiring curiosity.
• Race, the Revolution, and Slavery (70:04–74:39): Grappling with contradictions in the Declaration of Independence and legacy of the founders.
• Jon’s Medal of Honor Grandfather (61:14–85:19): Incredible WWII story, family influence, and the parallels with Washington’s heroism.
• Youth & Leadership (87:12–89:23): Noting how young the Founders and other heroes were, and the need to empower young people.
• The Indispensable Man—Washington’s Legacy & The Republic (94:07–98:37): The concept of servant leadership, partisanship, and the founding values.

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Thematic Highlights

1. American Optimism & Unity

Both guest and host advocate restoring faith in “things worth believing in”—the American experiment among them. The movie aims to make history accessible, engaging, and emotionally resonant, fostering gratitude rather than cynicism.

2. The True Nature of Leadership

Washington becomes an avatar for values like humility, discipline, willingness to own mistakes, and the capacity to adapt and serve—a model contrasted with modern fixations on power for its own sake.

3. Storytelling as Stewardship

Both Erwin and Rowe see themselves as stewards of stories—focused not just on accuracy, but on sparking curiosity and empowering the next generation to learn and lead.

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Final Takeaways

• Young Washington is timed to the nation’s 250th anniversary, offering an entertaining and moving exploration of the roots of American leadership and identity.
• The episode doubles as an ode to the importance of owning one’s failures, learning from adversity, and shaping a life (and a nation) around ideas worth serving.
• As Erwin attests, both onscreen and off, the quiet acts of courage—sometimes as small as a kiss—can be just as consequential as acts of historic bravery.

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Notable Closing Quote:

“My hope is that people will see the movie, love it, and then go on their own quest… We have way more that unites us than divides us.”
— Jon Erwin (91:59)

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Key Movie Release Info:
Young Washington opens in theaters nationwide, July 3 (just in time for Independence Day, the 250th anniversary).

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Listeners are encouraged to bring their family, reflect on America’s origins, and—true to Mike Rowe’s signoff—restore their own sense of wonder and gratitude for this ongoing experiment in liberty.

Transcript

[Mike Rowe]

Boy, did I enjoy the conversation you're about to hear right now. It's with a fellow named John Irwin who directed a film called Young Washington. And this, of course, is the way I heard it. And I can't think of a more appropriate topic or guest that rhymes with the title of this podcast or the whole reason it sort of evolved from the very beginning than this film. And this guy.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, first of all, he's a great director, and he's done a lot of great movies and TV shows. He did House of David on prime, which was a big hit. And this movie is coming out just in time for Independence Day.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, it'll be all over the country in theaters on July 3rd.

[John Irwin]

Correct.

[Mike Rowe]

So we got him in just under the Wire, and I'm so glad we did, because, you know, it's. There's not much to say about George Washington that you haven't heard, because most of what there is to say about him kind of starts around the revolution and goes forward, and then the rest is rooted in mythology, cherry trees and cannot tell a lie and all that nonsense. This is a movie about the man who came of age very quickly, thanks to his role in the French and Indian War and in the Seven Years War and of course, in the Revolutionary War. And what the film really does is what I try to do in all my little stories, Once Upon a Time, which is tell you something you didn't know about somebody. You do, right, and walk his significance in history back to a couple of moments that. That really inform the man long before anybody knew who he was. And, man, not only does this film do justice to that, but the conversation about the film is exactly what's fun to do after you get a peek through the portal back into time.

[John Irwin]

Absolutely. And he knows his stuff. He spent 10 years making this movie. Yeah, 10 years.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, it's one of the first things I ask him is, you know, can you describe what it feels like to be a director, to live with the thing for a decade, and now really just right on the verge of seeing it come out? I'm so relieved to tell you that it's a good movie, you know, because there are a lot of movies that I respect and that I really, really, really want to like. And, you know, they're okay and they're worth recommending and they're worth watching for those reasons, but when it's straight up legit, like, oh, man, this is so relevant and so captivating, and for once, when the movie ended, I wanted to see more.

[John Irwin]

Yes, yes. And it's Perfect for the semi quincentennial.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

This is everything that leads up to the Revolutionary War. This is how the father of our country became the general of the army. You see what happened in his life to give him the metal to do what he had to do to win the Revolutionary War.

[Mike Rowe]

And by metal, you mean Metal. Two T's? Yes. Yeah, for sure. He was forged in fire.

[John Irwin]

Oh, I see what you did there.

[Mike Rowe]

Different kind of metal.

[John Irwin]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

But look, this thing we call the American Revolution, it kind of lives in portraits and illustrations, and we're taught it so often through days and dates and documents, and it all just feels so dusty and old.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, not this.

[Mike Rowe]

No, no. This really frames it for what it was. You know, the American Revolution was, in fact, really the first modern world war. It was huge. And it starts really with a little fort called necessity that Washington built out in the Ohio Valley. And it was a botched, horribly failed attempt.

[John Irwin]

No spoiler alerts.

[Mike Rowe]

No. It happened hundreds of years ago. Dude, I'm not spoiling anything. But when you see. When you see the impact and the success of the father of our country through the lens of one of the most colossal failures of his life, things fall into place. It hits different. As the kids say. Yeah, it's a terrific film. It was made possible not just by John Irwin, but. And I say this credit where it's due because, look, you know, if you want to see more movies that you really like, you got to kind of follow the money back and really like, who made this happen. So the Wonder Project is a terrific bunch of people who are making great content, and that was founded by John, who you're about to meet. Yeah. But also our buddies over at Stand Together made this happen.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And they're doing a lot of good work in a lot of different areas. But for my money, making history interesting to people who otherwise wouldn't care. Yeah. And doing it through the medium of film and doing it well and betting on the right people that, you know, that matters. Because stuff like this is always upstream of most of the headlines of the day. It informs a lot of opinions, and this is liable to change some opinions for the better, I think.

[John Irwin]

Let's see.

[Mike Rowe]

Happy birthday to us. This is young Washington and John Irwin, right after this. Hey, if you were a fan of returning the favor or people, you should know you need to be listening to a podcast called an army of Normal Folks, because you will love it. This is done by my old friend Bill Courtney, famous football coach and the subject of a documentary called Undefeated the Doc told the story of Bill's impact on the football team at a very poor school in a very poor part of Tennessee. I think it was. You should watch it. It is terrific. Anyway, Bill is hosting an army of Normal Folks. It's a podcast that shines a light on the people that I used to call Bloody Do Gooders. Just the normal everyday people who take it upon themselves to go on a mission to do something to make their zip code a better place. Usually with some kind of bottom up solution. Bill calls these Bloody Do Gooders his Army of Normal folks. And every week he shares one of their stories. These are just regular people who are genuinely moving the needle in a surprising way on any number of issues. He's done over 150 episodes, all of which prove the power of what can happen when regular like minded people decide to attack a problem from the bottom up. The stories are all true. They're inspirational, empowering. Some are funny, most are poignant. But they're all guaranteed to leave you feeling hopeful about the future and about our species. Listen and subscribe to an army of Normal Folks on Apple, Spotify, Iheart, or just go over to normalfolks.org, it's a great website and this is a terrific podcast. You'll love it. But be advised, listening to Bill and his guests has been known to inspire in his many listeners an overpowering desire to make a difference in their own communities. It could happen to you too.

[John Irwin]

So heads up.

[Mike Rowe]

Listen and subscribe to an army of Normal Folks wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, John Irwin, thank you so much for making the time.

[John Irwin]

Oh, thanks for having me. Are you kidding me?

[Mike Rowe]

No, I'm not kidding you, man. I'm super serious. Because you've done a couple of things with filmmaking and culture and history that are near and dear to me. Yeah, I'm fascinated by the nexus of all that stuff.

[John Irwin]

Although you can do all that stuff and still like fix things and do. Now, see, I can't do any of that.

[Mike Rowe]

Well then, here we go. This is how we start. With the power of myth, with the power of projection, with the trap of assumption. You wouldn't believe. Well, maybe you would. The number of people who watch dirty jobs for 20 years and who conclude that, yeah, I'm that guy, man, I can.

[John Irwin]

This is true. This is the assumption that. But you were. You just gave voice to give audience.

[Mike Rowe]

Even worse, man, I was an apprentice. For me, it was just a study in failure juxtaposed with actual competent workers and tradespeople and letting the Viewer conclude. Okay, well, that must be X difficult because Mike is failing miserably. Or maybe that's not so bad.

[John Irwin]

Somehow the aggregate brand that was built, at least in my eyes, is a fun fan. Was. Oh, yeah, Mike can do all that stuff. This is a good point. And you should just go with that, by the way.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, you know what I did for a while and I got hired by all the likely, you know, Caterpillar and Ford and their. But really, it's not that I can't. It's just that in no way does it come easily. And so the real estate that I occupied in that little slice of culture was adjacent to competence. It was really like the willingness to try that I got paid for. And in hindsight, well, you know, it's a lot easier to try than succeed.

[John Irwin]

Yeah. Yeah. Here's to. Here's to. You have to do things poorly for a long time before then you can do them well.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, what's the Washington quote around? Failure.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, Failure once, basically failure recognize is twice amended. I think he said.

[Mike Rowe]

Yes.

[John Irwin]

Basically the idea is if you admit, and this is a huge part of his life, if you recognize, if you're self aware, if you recognize that you failed, and if you own it, then you're halfway to solving the problem already basically own it publicly. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Not enough to like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and really do some navel gazing and Kierkegaardian reflection and make some sort of internal adjustment. No, you need to go out and say, I screwed the pooch. What a horrific mistake this was. I apologize for that. And I am now ready. It's my favorite scene in your movie. I am now ready to accept the consequences.

[John Irwin]

I learned in my own life many times, but also in the study. I just love history. And so the study of a lot of great leaders. Most every truly formidable leader, whether it's Washington or Churchill or, you know, was forged much more in failure than they were in success and much more difficulty than they were in ease. But the defining difference was their ability to hug the cactus and kind of own it and acknowledge it. And you're right publicly and then also apply curiosity to it and sort of evolve. I wanted to do the young life of George Washington because I was much more interested in like, where was this myth carved in granite forged, you know, and under what circumstances? And you get to this chapter in his life where this is where he became the leader, in my view.

[Mike Rowe]

Let me step back a sec. Cause I wanna dive deep into all of it. How's it feel right Now, I mean, I've never directed a movie, so I'm assuming you've lived with this thing now for a couple years. You've been through all the pre. Production, obviously the production. Now you're done with the post. You're gonna go, this is gonna be a. A nationwide release right before our 250th freaking birthday. I mean, things couldn't have lined up.

[John Irwin]

And it's the only film in theaters nationwide on our 250.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

That celebrates the American story at all, which is shocking to me. It's like, I thought there would at least be Independence Day 3 or, you know, or Die Hard 4 or, you know, Saving Private Ryan against something, you know.

[Mike Rowe]

Right.

[John Irwin]

And so. But, yeah, this has been a decade in the making for me. I love. While working on other. I think I made a commitment a while ago because there's like a fog to success, and you don't really know it's hard. And so someone should write some book, Surviving Success. And so after your first kind of breakout, there's a lot of voices and they're loud. But I've concluded that inspiration is kind of internal and quiet.

[Mike Rowe]

And what was the first breakup?

[John Irwin]

I just. So I would say that we did a movie called I Can Only Imagine and raise the money for it to both make it and to market it. So every filmmaker should do that at least once in your life. You're throwing up in a trash can Thursday night before it releases. We built the film to break even at 15 million in US box office, and it did 17 million in its opening weekend, and 86 million overall was the number one independent film of the year. And, you know, I had grown up in Alabama, was told to do kindergarten again, you know, because I was an ADHD nightmare, you know, and so, like, I had no means of my brother and I of being in Hollywood or in the studio business. Well, that. That film was such a hit that it introduced us to a great company right here in Santa Monica at Lionsgate and. And some other studios. And then it was just, you know, the pressure of, can you do this again? This anomaly thing, this isn't Lionsgate.

[Mike Rowe]

This is not. No.

[John Irwin]

But. But we. For five years, one of the great mentors of my life was Michael Burns, vice chair, Lionsgate, and.

[Mike Rowe]

And those guys bought the production company that did Dirty Jobs.

[John Irwin]

Oh, did they really?

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

I love Felt and Mike and. And they. My whole career is based off mentors. And when I did that deal, I said, I just want to. I want to learn how your studio works. And I'm a very curious entrepreneur, and I'd like to be seen as an entrepreneur first and filmmaker second. And Michael just took me under his wing as it felt.

[Mike Rowe]

So I'm so curious. So, okay, you get a hit in relative terms, financially, you crushed it.

[John Irwin]

Oh, yeah, we all, yeah, did very well. We owned it and everybody did well. And, you know, we all got a chance to buy a house and, you know, it was a wonderful moment in life and. But what I realized on the other side of that is, you know, when you have the pressures to repeat success and when you don't even really know how it happened and, you know, our next film was number one, number one movie in America Friday night when it opened. It was called I Still Believe. And my brother and I were in pre production on a film called American Underdog and producing a film called Jesus Revolution. And. And then five days later, Covid had taken out all theaters worldwide. So I was like, oh, welcome back. Disappointment. And. But what I learned after that was just, you know, I think at the end of the day, you gotta be motivated by the work itself, and the work has to be its own reward. And to me, I just decided kind of through the dark night of the soul, that period, to. I'm just gonna tell the stories that are most moving to me.

[Mike Rowe]

So did this come to you fully formed? Do you stumble across it? Was it.

[John Irwin]

Oh, no, this is a Michael Burns quote that he loves. Socrates said, I've suffered my way to wisdom. And so I think it was just. It was just difficulty that allowed me to come to a fuller realization of like, you know, the joy of it is just in. In telling stories that I think are meaningful and life changing to me and hoping they're meaningful and life changing to other people. It's wonderful when they succeed. And many of them have. But. But so that led to. I created a series for Amazon called House of David. And that's a story I had wanted to do since I was 16 years old. And it was a number one on prime and 60 million viewers globally. And I had carried around a magazine that I had found on the Internet that was 50 years old that no one understood that there was a movie in there, but it was like a psychedelic Jesus and it said Jesus Revolution. And it was very much like a spiritual hippie awakening in California. That movie, you know, broke even in like three days.

[Mike Rowe]

And.

[John Irwin]

And there's a movie and everything there is. And then Washington 10 years ago. I. I'm from the south, so I'm very. Fairness means a lot to Me. And, and, and so I could not get in to see Hamilton like a decade ago. And it just felt unfair. I mean I wasn't. And, and so I'm like, I'm going to rage against this by reading 30 books, you know, which I did. And I fell in love with the story of the American Revolution. But not to tell a movie, not to make a movie or TV show. But I just loved. I mean, it's an incredible story.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, here's what you did that I want to compliment you on primarily. And I'm obsessed with this. We did, I don't know, probably 200 stories called the Way I heard it. That's what this thing originally was. And in some way, shape or form. They were all short stories. Many of them have been brought to life, reenacted and so forth. But they all try to go back into. It's something you didn't know about someone. You do.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

At its.

[John Irwin]

You know the name, you don't know the story.

[Mike Rowe]

That's right. I love that. So, I mean, look, and in the spirit of no new ideas and good natured theft and of course, I stole this from Paul Harvey. Good day.

[John Irwin]

Picasso said good artist copy, great artist steel. So this has been going on for a long time.

[Mike Rowe]

Picasso was also obsessed with a model that was diametrically opposed to Cezanne's, which. Which is fascinating now.

[John Irwin]

You're beyond me. I don't. All I know is the quote, okay,

[Mike Rowe]

Arguably the two greatest artists who ever lived. One was never finished. The other was done like the minute Picasso was finished. And it was usually in the course of a few hours or maybe a day. That thing was framed and sold and out of his life and he never went back. Which do you ascribe to Cezanne? On the other hand, that guy would show up in people's homes who had bought his work and touch him up. He was never done. And Picasso was always done.

[John Irwin]

You know, it's interesting in film, I don't agree with this idea of like the director's cut or a re release. I think a movie is a reflection of two things. What the world was like at that time. You know, the decade, the 90s, the

[Mike Rowe]

80s, the 70s, the time it was

[John Irwin]

made when it was a movie. Yeah. And what the filmmaker was going through personally in their journey. And for that reason, I like George Lucas said films are never complete. They're also abandoned and they're only abandoned. And I think that's the way it should be. I think once they're done, they're done Yep. And they're a time capsule of what the world was and what you were, and they shouldn't be touched.

[Mike Rowe]

Yep.

[John Irwin]

That's my view.

[Mike Rowe]

My view is I agree 100%, but tragically, I did not inherit the conviction of my agreeance. And I almost said, I'm Cezanne, as if there was some sort of relative parallel to our respective talents. There's not, but it's not, because I don't think my inability to finish a thing is rooted in insecurity. I just love messing with it.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, me too.

[Mike Rowe]

I just love going back and going, you know what? What if? What? And it drives everybody in my life insane.

[John Irwin]

We have this thing, we say the work expands the time allowed, and you get to that day, in my world, it's picture lock. And that's the last time that I can really screw with the story. That's it. And then I actually delegate it to a fabulous team for finishing color audio. And a lot of times, I don't think I've seen the final print of Washington, just because after, I can't change the story. My team is incredible, and we do a lot of work together, and I'd rather just wait till it opens.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, that's why I asked how you're doing, just on a real simple, like, human level, all the work is done, right. You're Sandy Koufax. You let the ball go, it's on the way to the plate. There's not a damn thing you can do about it except wait and see how the pit, how the batter handles it.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, it's two things for me, if I were to talk really philosophical, I would say for a long time in my life, I think a lot of artists do. You put so much of your identity into the work itself that you. And it never works in that way, like, if you. If you're welcome to a volatile, you know, life of. And so I think I had to, over time, put less of my identity in the work and just more identity in just doing the work in the sense of, like, constant improvement in craft and just a love of the game. I love what I get to do. It's a privilege of a life of a lifetime to get to entertain people. And putting less of my identity into the result of the work and just more identity into, you know, myself and also just into the doing the work and the fun of it and the joy of just doing the work tends to make better work, and better work tends to work more. And so, oddly enough, you kind of get the thing that you're no longer chasing a little bit

[Mike Rowe]

dumb. Just a quick moment to thank my friends at American Giant again for proving that high quality clothing can still be made in America for a fair price. They've been at it now for 15 years. Clearly they've got it down. They source locally grown cotton. They build their factories in towns across the nation where they can find and hire hard working locals who care about making a quality product. It's not complicated, but it's not easy. Point is, when you buy a piece of clothing from American Giant, you're not just buying a sweatshirt or a T shirt or another pair of jeans, which are all awesome by the way. You're investing and a local supply chain. I think that's important. I also want to thank them for putting the Microworks logo on a limited line of T shirts and sweatshirts and donating the proceeds back to my foundation. We're using that money to fund our next round of work ethic scholarships. And I'm sincerely grateful. Check out the high quality staples. Hoodies, T shirts, denim. It's all built to be worn year after [e-mail] it's quality you can feel and a true American success story you can be proud to support. Use code Mike. Get 20% off your first order at american-giant.com Mike. American Giant. American Made. American Giant. American Made.

[John Irwin]

And so for me, just the sheer love of storytelling and stories and their meaning and what they do and then being able to just take the stories that are most, most meaningful to me that I think find me in some way over long periods of time and then trying to transmit that experience to the audience as much as I can is a joy. Beyond that, it's almost like you're a football coach where it's like, you know, I have learned success is the, the byproduct of incremental improvement over a lot of areas, especially in something like film. So it's all about like, how's the special teams, how's the defensive line, how's the punter and that world with theatrical movies. It's like, how are the pre sales, how are our grassroots efforts? How's that? You know, and you have to like fire. You have to execution over many, many areas at the same time is really important. And then you what I've learned to really win, you have to just catch a lightning in a bottle, kind of a perfect storm that you cannot create. So you have to.

[Mike Rowe]

I think that you, you're right about the entertaining thing, but I also clearly you have an agenda. You want to inform you. Want to show the country that there's something important. I think I watched the film last night on my computer. I'm sorry, but I couldn't get the damn thing on the tv. No worries.

[John Irwin]

And, oh, how was it on a computer? Did it work for you?

[Mike Rowe]

Well, you know what the thing is, man? I just brought it three feet from my face. It was great. It was great. And I had headphones in, so it was terrific. But one little weird quirk about screeners that I'm sure you've experienced, you know, so, like the studio, I guess it was Angel Chuck sent it to you, and you sent it to me. Yeah, yeah, Right. So it's identified as. As mine. Right.

[John Irwin]

Like, huge thing on the screen.

[Mike Rowe]

My name pops up the second we see George Washington in battle in the very opening scene. Like, boom, he's there. And underneath it says, Mike Rowe.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, we planted that one just for you.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm like, what? This is.

[John Irwin]

My name appeared there as well.

[Mike Rowe]

Shocking.

[John Irwin]

It's shocking to see your name.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah. Pop up throughout the screener. But my question is, nobody wants a lecture. Nobody wants a sermon, right?

[John Irwin]

Yeah, that's right.

[Mike Rowe]

History sucks. People hate it. Except we love it.

[John Irwin]

It shouldn't, though.

[Mike Rowe]

It shouldn't.

[John Irwin]

Sometimes the telling of history sucks is pretty amazing. If it's in the hands of a good storyteller.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, it's the best. But, you know, you did a great job in this movie of telling me an entertaining story that was filled with stuff that I was curious about and was learnable. But I think the classic mistake people make, especially history professors, is they just reverse that.

[John Irwin]

Correct.

[Mike Rowe]

And we just go in with, okay, facts and dates and names and places and times, and that just put a glass eye to sleep.

[John Irwin]

What I like is, I think the documentary filmmaker Ken Burns calls it emotional archaeology, which is a cool term and process and function. Fun of, like, man, do everything that you can to put the audience there. Like, what would this have been like in a visceral way, which is what we really tried to do with young Washington. And if there is any agenda to the work, it's that, you know, at Wonder Project, which is the independent studio I founded that Michael Burns at Lionsgate helped me found, we talk about this sentence of stories that restore faith and things worth believing in, whatever those things are. And I think I would submit that America, while imperfect, is one of those things, and it's worth believing in.

[Mike Rowe]

Where would you rather be?

[John Irwin]

Yeah. And so to me, that is the. And not to say that there's anything wrong With. I'll give you an example. I think probably one of the most perfect hours of television ever is the finale of Breaking Bad. That is probably. It's so hard to architect an end in television. And Vince Gilligan, probably the great showrunner and master of his craft. But I had at some point to stop watching Breaking Bad because I was just meaner as a person. You know what I'm saying? I had to, like, disconnect from it. So while I'm not saying that those things shouldn't exist because they're incredible, whether it's Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones or whatever, I would say that there is this need culturally and also in entertainment for stories that pull you to the better parts of your nature, to the better parts of humanity and pull you back.

[Mike Rowe]

Don't you think it goes both ways? I mean, to be fair, personally, I agree with you, but how much Hallmark can you watch? How much saccharine, sweet, G rated. Holy. You know, just.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, but see, I actually think I have strong theories on this. Like, I think the. The best book on optimism I ever read is Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, which.

[Mike Rowe]

The great comedy, right?

[John Irwin]

Yeah, Right.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Irwin]

Somebody should do a musical on that. But it's, you know, this guy survived the Holocaust and yet he had this kind of optimistic approach. So I actually don't think that the storytelling people want is storytelling that rips out what I think Hallmark does and does well, if that's what you're looking for. Rips out the stakes of the story. Like, let's create a world that's not real to life where, you know, the biggest, the most dramatic decision that is going to be made is, you know, whether Candace Cameron chooses kind of someone from the city or someone from the country. You know, that's. And again, my wife loves those movies. But. But my point is, I think what the audience is yearning for is stories that grapple with real life and the grit of real life, but through a lens of optimism and belief. And I think that's what's missing, so.

[Mike Rowe]

Or character.

[John Irwin]

Or character.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, Sound of Freedom. It's not a feel good.

[John Irwin]

Not at all.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, but you're invested.

[John Irwin]

But you're invested. Or, you know, I could. And my dad and I will watch this film. He's probably watched it. I think he watched it seven times in theaters. Top Gun, Maverick, I think, is a good example of, like, you go to that movie, you just feel you believe in things again. And I think that that's the content that's missing and what we aspire to create. And so the idea of let's grapple with real life. Let's tell a story in as gripping and entertaining a way possible. We're first entertainers, but let's design and architect the story to inspire the audience to do something that's very countercultural and kind of punk rock, which is to embrace optimism again and embrace belief in each other and in things that are imperfect, like America, but still absolutely worth believing in and worth perfecting together. That's the kind of. So if there is an agenda in the things that I do, it's that and it's letting the story do as much of the work as possible and hopefully instigating the journey for the audience. Where you watch, you know the name Washington, you don't know about this story, you learn about this story. In my view, this was a movie about leadership. Like what it isn't and what it is and what it should be. Those type questions. And you watch it and then you immediately hopefully what I've heard from a lot of people that have seen it, you know you're on Google that night. Oh, yeah, did this happen? Did this happen?

[Mike Rowe]

That's the other back part of my compliment. It's, don't take this the wrong way, but movies and stories, I think inherently you just have to realize that all you can offer in two hours is the shallow end of the pool.

[John Irwin]

Correct.

[Mike Rowe]

But if you do it right, it's going to make a lot of people want to take a deeper dive down on the other side. And that's exactly what the movie does.

[John Irwin]

Well, and you did it like beyond the form of the story. The. An eight minute podcast episode of yours, I believe, at the cross.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, at the cross Crossroads. Yeah.

[John Irwin]

In eight minutes you had me saying, wait, did this place exist? Did Washington really go there 25 times? Once on his way to the inauguration. Was it. And it was great storytelling. It was a great device of let's hold the what who the traveler's name is till the end. And to me, that's the job of a storyteller is to entertain and to kind of give a window into the meaning of life. I agree with you. I like this. Aaron Sorkin said, when you do an adaptation of a true story, you're not trying to take a photograph, you're trying to paint a portrait.

[Mike Rowe]

You're painting a portrait and you're painting

[John Irwin]

the most accurate portrait you can. But you have to make. Typically in making a movie, you're compressing timelines and you're doing composite characters, but you're trying to get that portrait right. I remember when we did the Kurt Warren movie, we signed a Rams helmet and said, you got my story right. And we made those changes. Typical to an adaptation, but you're trying to paint an accurate portrait so that the audience is then inspired to go find the photographs.

[Mike Rowe]

Let me tell you what happened to me, and then you tell me if this rhymes in some way with the way you think about the movies you make. I read conflicting accounts of the first inaugural address by Washington witnesses. Some say he concluded it by saying, so help me God, when he was sworn in. Others say he didn't. There's been this giant debate ever since. This podcast is called the Way I Heard it, in large part because we seem to be surrounded by ambiguity and certainty in the expert class. So here's just, like, one more instance where, okay, a lot of people are really pretty sure this happened. Did it or didn't it? Well, I certainly don't know. But here's what I know. I grew up in Baltimore, not far from the intersection of 175 and Route 1 down in Columbia. There's a Holiday Inn there today. Turns out there's been an inn at that crossroads for centuries. And it used to be run by a guy named John Spurrier. And John Spurrier got famous because he wrote a book called the Practical Farmer that both Jefferson and Washington loved and endorsed. Spurrier's Inn, or Spurrier's Tavern, was on the way to a lot of important places that Washington frequented. So he wound up staying there over 25 times. And so in my story, and this is where I go totally off the rails. I'm just making stuff up.

[John Irwin]

And I'm like, well, but you hypothesize in a way that it does not. It could have happened. It makes total sense that it could have happened.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, there's no way these two men didn't share multiple private conversations. Washington admits as much, and, of course, John does as well. But what did they talk about? So the hook for my story was, okay, you can fill a book with what I don't know, but the only words I'm going to put in Washington's mouth are quotes that there's no ambiguity about. So what kind of conversation could the father of our country have with an innkeeper that might somehow be relevant to people today? That's the riddle. And hopefully what came out the other end was, okay, you know, but how

[John Irwin]

do you think of Washington? Like, I love the history. And I was like, wait, did this happen? It was written in a way that was visceral and engaging. And that's exactly what stories should do. Oh, this inn existed. This guy existed. He wrote this book. Well, spoiler alert.

[Mike Rowe]

Just so people can track it. In my story, at the end of one of their meetings, where Washington is constantly giving Spurrier great advice on how to run his inn, which he inherited from his mom and dad and didn't really want. Yeah, right. In one of those exchanges, as Washington is leaving, Spurrier promises to take his advice. So help me God. And in my story, Washington cocks his head and goes, I like the way that sounds. So help me God. That should be at the end of a promise. And a day later, here's his promise.

[John Irwin]

Here's what we do know. And it actually intersects with the movie I made, is when you read the words of his first inaugural address. And I actually thought, John Adams got this right. The series Washington has plural C when he was younger, and it kind of takes his voice. So he kind of has what would be like a breathy, deep voice. So Washington did Washington so. And he said, no matter. I would rather be known by my deeds than my words. But he would have spoken softly. And this is where David Morse in John Adams gets it absolutely right. So on the inauguration, everybody was said to be leaning in because they couldn't hear him, because he. He spoke in this soft tone or this kind of deep, quiet tone. He had such a resounding presence, but he. John Adams was like the voice, you know, or Patrick Henry. George Washington was a guy that walked in the room and changed the room, but quietly. And he architected himself and his ethos and his look

[Mike Rowe]

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[John Irwin]

And I thought the movie, Spielberg's movie, got that right.

[Mike Rowe]

Daniel Day.

[John Irwin]

And so I think the reason there's some controversy around this is because no one could hear him. And it said that he said, so help me God, and kiss the Bible. But with that many people with no pa, who knows? Because he wasn't an orator. But what I can tell you is that when you read his first inaugural address and his other speeches, there was absolutely a recognition of what he would call the architect of the universe, the divine hand being inextricably linked to his rise and to the nation itself. And that's kind of a part of our ethos. The American Revolution being kind of a collision of faith and thought and purpose and reason, the Great Awakening preceding the American Revolution and the rights of man and kind of the age of reason coming out of Europe, those things collided in the American Revolution. And so I think it's absolutely in the context of his actual speech, it makes total sense that he would say, so help me God. Because what we dramatized spoiler alert in our film, was that when he really humbled himself under Braddock and really defined himself as the leader he would someday be, he later Learned it was 14 years later we moved it up into the context of the film that there's Native American chief and his men were firing right at him and they said could not hit him. And in fact, one of the bullets went through his hat. Their claim was that there was some kind of the creator was kind of protecting him in some way, some divine hand of providence that really stuck with him. And then I think whether it's the fog on the crossing of the Delaware, there's a bunch of stuff in his life where he was like, I don't understand how this happened. I don't see any other explanation for this happening. And I have to recognize some sort of a divine hand in the story of his life and in the story of the nation itself. That was very what he says in his first inaugural, heavy on his mind, you know. And so I think within that context, him saying, so help me God, would have been absolutely in character, although no one could hear. So who knows?

[Mike Rowe]

Who knows? How do you decide where to start a story?

[John Irwin]

Yeah, I'm just obsessed with the formation of things like. And anytime there's a leader that's mythic, whether that's David, you know, in the show House David that I made, or if it's Washington, you actually ask, okay, Or Churchill. Or Churchill, since you invoked Churchill, you get to Gallipoli, you get to a massive.

[Mike Rowe]

Blundells biggest mistake of his life.

[John Irwin]

I think 50,000 people died. A lot of people died because of a decision he made. And so what I am obsessed with learning is like, what are the primary characteristics of a person? And then where are they made? And so with Washington, what a lot of people don't understand is that the Revolutionary War was a war of attrition or the war of post. And that means it's basically, you have the largest amphibious fleet ever assembled in the history of the world, filled with Hessian mercenaries like hired guns, basically sent to crush us.

[Mike Rowe]

And we're not even us yet.

[John Irwin]

And we're not even us. And all of a sudden, that's a whole other discussion. We're not even a nation. We are colonies that are banded together to declare independence or to basically. And then we didn't really know what would happen afterwards, but if there even was an afterwards, which was highly unlikely. So the idea that this unstoppable force meets this immovable object, which is Washington, and by force of character and force of will and force of myth and ethos, this one man, before there was a national anthem or creed or flag, this one person embodied this movement. And his army, people don't understand, was not a standing army. That means every six months, most of your army can just be like, well, that's all that, South Carolina, you know, and they would just leave, you know? And so the idea of one guy holding it together like that, where did this person with an absolutely uncommon grit and endurance and the ability to suffer over a long period of time in a way that just outlasted the enemy, which is what you're. A war of attrition. You're waiting on them to just get tired.

[Mike Rowe]

Where do you learn that kind of stuff?

[John Irwin]

Where do you learn it? And then you get to this early part of his life, and you learn that great characters like that are forged. They're never forged in ease and success and kind of like or alone. Lofty ideas or alone. They're forged in hardship and adventure and risk and failure and brotherhood and, you know, mentors. So there was this adventure chapter in the beginning of his life that I knew we were onto something when we went to Mount Vernon to research it. And that one of the gate attendants, she's like, what are y' all working on? We're like, oh, we're working on a movie on. It's called Young Washington. She goes, oh, I guess he was young once, wasn't he? Like, like. And so nobody really thinks of that. And so it was this chapter that in my mind was very much like Pride and Prejudice meets the Revenant. It was his first great adventures and he made this really big mistake. I mean, it was not a small mistake. It was a shot heard around the world that he was responsible for that started a global conflict. And then he made this fort in the wrong place and got his ass kicked in at the highest levels of failure.

[Mike Rowe]

Kickery.

[John Irwin]

And he went from colonel to nothing. But then he self assessed, he humbled himself, he owned his failure. And he became an aide de camp for Braddock, went back out into the frontier and absolutely defined himself as the leader that he would become. And so I just thought that chapter of How Are Myths Made Was so interesting to me. And I think so many of us have either failed in such a way that we think we can't recover or are so afraid of failure that we don't try, that we don't realize that actually few failures are fatal and failures shape great people much more than success. And so I wanted to kind of process that of like, what is leadership? Where are leaders born? And what is the use of suffering and failure and adventure and risk in the development of yourself?

[Mike Rowe]

I think in the human moment you can handle all of that in a portrayal and in a narrative as well in a historical context. Like Washington couldn't. I don't think he could have possibly known that the French and Indian War that he Forrest Gumped his way into. He did, didn't he would become the Seven Years War.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Which would in turn inform everything that became the American Revolution. Which if you're really going to step back and ask yourself what the First World War was in the modern age.

[John Irwin]

Seven Years War. Yeah, that's it.

[Mike Rowe]

Right. And so if you go back a little further, go, okay, so it's fort necessity. All right, that was a bad idea. Built in a bad spot. He greenlit that. But wait a minute, go back before that. The first shot. That's Fired. We don't know who fires it. Was it the French? Was it the Brits? Was it Washington himself? I guarantee you, John, 98% of the people who are going to walk into this theater are not going to realize that George Washington was a colonel in the British army. Yeah, we just don't think of it.

[John Irwin]

Colonel in a British army, but never given a royal commission, which meant that he could have been. You know, there's a line in the movie where a British officer says, you could be a general and I wouldn't have to listen to you. And so there was this incredible lack of fairness that he was never able to accomplish on merits alone. And that feeling of the American idea, to me, America is just simply an idea that you can. If you can get yourself here, you can do anything. And there's nothing. It's not. You're not your bloodline, you're not your class. You know, this is the land of opportunity. You see in Washington that if he was just truly let into these circles and not put down because he was colonial, I don't know that there is an America today. But yes, he became colonel just before necessity, not royal commission, but certainly it was major first, then a colonel because he volunteered for things he had no idea how to do. And he failed miserably at first trying to do them, but learned, and he learned this new style of warfare of harass and outlast the enemy that he would end up using against the British. So again, I just think it's a great lesson that sometimes when you're going through incredibly difficult seasons in life, sometimes when you're failing, you're just learning how to win incrementally. If you'll just keep going and not give up again.

[Mike Rowe]

Understand that the father of our country built a fortune on a flood plain surrounded by heavily wooded trees. Right behind forest, there is no enfilade and defilated. You can fire at will right into an open fort. Which of course is exactly what happened. It was just disastrous.

[John Irwin]

Yeah. And the idea that he just felt the French would face them in this field in honor, that's proper justice. The French are like, we're gonna hide in the woods and just pick you guys off. And it was a horrible defeat. Like it was if it was a basketball game. It would have been like 110 to 2, you know? And then again, to make matters worse, he signed a document that he.

[Mike Rowe]

Because he was Articles of Capitulation.

[John Irwin]

He was not as educated as many others because his father died. We portray that in the film but he missed it, as did his interpreter. And I guess he would have been forced to sign anyway, but that basically he agreed to assassinating the. The officer that started this conflict. And so.

[Mike Rowe]

Joel P. What was his name?

[John Irwin]

Oh, gosh, it's in the film. I'm not. I'm going to butcher it if I.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, it's like eight long, but there's actually a place today in this country you can visit. It's like Joel Pean's Bluff or something.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, Jamal Voglin is the.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, that's. That's what I'm talking about. It's like 60 miles out of Pittsburgh.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting that. Oh, and by the way, as an aside on this shot heard round the world, that no one knows who fired the first shot at Jumanvaglim. That started kind of the first global conflict. That's how we portray in the film. But these muskets that we were using were very temperamental and very old. And constantly we were doing these very complex, what we would call a oner, which is a single shot with a lot of precision work in like horse lanes and explosions and mortars. And constantly these guns would not go off. You'd get to like the close up of the gun. Click. They don't go up. And so this was a constant frustration as we were filming the movie and enlightening of like, how did people fight with these things? And so. But there was one where we had this kind of like kid extra and we were doing Jimin Voglint and he had his musket and we're on him and we haven't yet called background action. And we're doing. We're going. And all of a sudden his gun just goes off and obviously blank. And he looks at the camera, he's like, was I not supposed to fire that shot? We figured it out. There it is. This is how it's. You guys. We solve 270 years of history. Right?

[Mike Rowe]

Is it weird, you know, how things rhyme like that? I mean, when you say the shot heard round the world, I think Lexington and Concord. I mean, but. But in that same battle, we don't know who pulled the trigger. Or at least that's the story. That's the way somebody.

[John Irwin]

I think the guns just went off accidentally. I mean, that literally could be what happened in at least one or both instances.

[Mike Rowe]

But here's what.

[John Irwin]

These very temperamental guns would just go off, you know.

[Mike Rowe]

Okay, so I watched Byrne's version. The American Revolution.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Let me say first, Wow. I Mean, what he did with the Civil War. I mean, my dad and I just had weeks of bonding watching that together.

[John Irwin]

Incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

My dad was a history teacher. Jazz, baseball, Vietnam, national parks. He's one of our great. Certainly one of our greatest documentarians, I think, walking around.

[John Irwin]

Oh, he's the great documentarian, I think.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah. Yeah. But what do you make of it? Like, I watched your movie, and in the film, the way you heard it, the way your advisors heard it, whatever. We don't know who pulled that trigger. We don't know. Now, in Ken's movie, we know exactly who pulled the trigger. We know exactly who fired the first shot. It was George Washington.

[John Irwin]

Now, there is one account that there's not enough evidence to make that claim, in my opinion.

[Mike Rowe]

This is what I love, dude.

[John Irwin]

This is what I love.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, it's the history for people who don't properly enjoy it, man. It's the ultimate Monday morning quarterback meets a trial, meets looking at the evidence. I know, Making your best call. But it's very different in a lecture hall when the academics can just go at each other versus, hey, man, I'm writing a podcast. You're making a movie.

[John Irwin]

I'm saying, when I dramatized that scene, and this early 20s kid has got this camp surrounded. There's 35 of them down there, and there's 50 surrounding him. And it's his job to go tell him to leave again. And if they don't, to use whatever force necessary, which is an order. He didn't understand. A very unclear order. I don't think he fires his gun. I'm saying, when we dramatized it, I'm like, everything I know about this character, you know, so there's all kinds of theories. You know, the. The half king who was there with him hated the French and said that they ate his father. Whether that was true or not, that's what he said. I don't think that there is near enough to say that. Because the other thing is the account that Washington fired the shot was, as I understand it, decades later in an absolute retrospect. So there was nothing, first person in the moment at the time that said, oh, yeah, Washington pulled the trigger. That you can't. I would be uncomfortable as a storyteller claiming that to be true.

[Mike Rowe]

Do you remember? I don't know if you're old enough to remember this, man. You are there later, I think, changed to, you were there. This was on in the 70s and slightly before him.

[John Irwin]

80s child of the 80s.

[Mike Rowe]

So I remember a series on the Alamo and basically so it's just a big recreation, but it's presented, you know, in the 1950s, 1960s, like John Cameron Swayze. Everything is as it was on that famous day in history, except you are there. Right. It's cool. But once you say that, once you say you are there and everything else is the way it was, you're not saying, that's the way I heard it. You're not making the move.

[John Irwin]

See, that's better. Because first of all, nobody knows how it was, but you know. Right.

[Mike Rowe]

But it's just a delightfully arrogant pretense to go, okay. The only thing that isn't exactly as it was is, is you're there. So they put the viewer as a witness.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Into the good marketing hook. It's terrific.

[John Irwin]

Impossible to execute. And I'm much more vocal of like, this is a, this is commentary. This is a storyteller wrestling with everything that they can learn. And then when you put it up on its feet and you add context and you add hopefully this kind of emotional archeology to it, it's revelatory, you can process it. But I, this is how I heard it. I don't know. This is my best efforts to saying of all I know this feels emotionally right and authentic to me.

[Mike Rowe]

Look, I mean, the greatest lesson a filmmaker or a writer can learn from Washington is humility.

[John Irwin]

Correct.

[Mike Rowe]

It's got to be.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, I, I think that he, I mean, there's so many lessons to learn from his life, but the way he kind of, he was very self aware, he forged himself and he humbled himself when he failed. And that process of failing, admitting it, humbling yourself, learning.

[Mike Rowe]

What do you most admire about the man? I know that's broad. What did you learn in the course of making the movie that actually took your breath away?

[John Irwin]

Man, there's so much to learn from Washington as I wanted to make a film about leadership, you know, what does that mean? Is it important? Okay. If it is important, which I think we could call say it is. Okay. What's the good version of it? What's the bad version of it? And what I learned about Washington, first of all, what I found interesting, and this is again, this is, this is my take. But he was not this boring, stoic. This dude's personality raged. His quest for stoicism and self mastery was almost like the lid on a volcano. Like there was a lot of passion underneath the surface of Washington that he learned to control in ways that other founders didn't. And like, I think Patrick Henry, as influential as he was the revolution. What the reason why he was a great orator, not necessarily great leader is man. His passions were everywhere. John Adams. The same way Washington learned to control this massive personality. Now, when that lid blew off, like with Lee in the Revolutionary War, it would say that when he, like, really reamed somebody out, the trees shook, I think is the actual words. So he had this incredible personality that he learned to control. So that lifelong quest to forge oneself and to control oneself and that and being successful in that is really interesting. I also found it really interesting. Like, I think the lesson of, like, be careful who you study and who you admire. He was a guy that couldn't go to school because his dad died. And so he. His I portrayed in the film, his half brother really mentored him. And there was a question of whether he had tutors or not. But he read a lot. And I do think that that is important, like reading, learning, studying. And then who are you? In allegory, I think matters because it's interesting that Washington, like, loved Cato, loved the play, loved the book. And there's a line that was often passed between the Founding Fathers that we quote in the film that I think it's not moral to command success. We'll do. We'll do better. We'll deserve it. The idea of, like, you can't predict success, but damn it, we can deserve it.

[Mike Rowe]

You can command obedience, but not respect.

[John Irwin]

Correct. And I think that he also modeled himself after Cincinnatus, and. Which is where we get Cincinnati. It's a Roman general that was given total power, but also a farmer, protected Rome, gave it back twice. And so Washington, like, became his obsession. I think is interesting that. That he really architected himself his interior and exterior. He built himself and over a long period of time, and he learned through failures and he crafted something very powerful. But I think what I wanted to point the most defining attribute, I think, to Washington that I wanted to point out in the film is here's a guy that, through this first set of adventures in his life, realized that it kind of wasn't about him, even though it would be in the sense that he realized that to lead, you know, the first half of our film, which I think is accurate, as with any story about someone that wants to make a name for themselves, you know, or wants to make it in the big city or whatever. This is kind of a story trope. It's selfish. It's. It's about them, you know, And I think for Washington, it was.

[Mike Rowe]

He wants to be weighed and measured.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, he Wants to advance his station.

[Mike Rowe]

He.

[John Irwin]

And. And so it is about him until his. What we say in the film is his ambition was. He put his ambition in front of his men, and he got a lot of his men killed. And I think this guy realized that, oh, leadership is to actually serve. To serve the people you're entrusted with and to serve an idea that is so much bigger than you, that in service to that idea, you become the embodiment of the idea itself and the discipline.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, he was such. My experience of the guy, and not just through your movie, but he was such a fan of rigor. He was such a fan of a codified system.

[John Irwin]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

I mean, he loved his men. But I remember reading it may have been Valley Forge, that terrible, terrible, unthinkable winter, you know, where he has deserters shot.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

In front of his men.

[John Irwin]

Flogged, shot. And he would. Yeah. And. And he had, I think, discipline was very important to him. Order was very important to him also as an exercise, which is something any American can do. I don't know. For you, like, whenever I'm in between movies or whatever, I like to, like, redesign something, like a wall, a room or something, because it's like, this is the little thing that I can control in this. Uncontrollable. Yeah. You know, and so for Washington, he would always write these very specific letters to his brother Jack about Mount Vernon, often before a battle. And his brother was Jack, who was.

[Mike Rowe]

Who's the brother portrayed? His half brother.

[John Irwin]

That's Jack, right?

[Mike Rowe]

That's Jack, Yeah. Okay.

[John Irwin]

And Jack would have been a little older. We made him younger for the story. He would have been actually, like, in the context of our story, like 17 or 18. But we, again, we're trying to explain that it was.

[Mike Rowe]

And his dad was Augustine. Correct.

[John Irwin]

And so Mount Vernon, if you want to get into the psychology of Washington, because Mount Vernon is so well preserved, you're thinking this guy is under great duress in this war that he cannot control. Mount Vernon is the thing he can control. So the more pressure he's under out in battle, the more letters he's going to write to be like, plant the shrubs here, because this is this one thing that he can control. And so you go to Mount Vernon and. And there is. Everything is symmetrical. Like, if you go into the little rotunda on the left, house, you go in, and there's two windows. There's the same exact piece of furniture underneath both windows. There's the same two paintings, the same two on both walls in the same room. Exactly the same. The room is completely. I'm like, was this dude on the spectrum? Like, there was something, like, completely symmetrical about the room. Mount Vernon is in complete symmetry. And so it's just an interesting exercise to be like, this is totally preserved. This is Mount Vernon is this dude's painting. And what does it say about his personality? To me, it says that there was an extreme quest for order and perfection and balance and symmetry. So that would tell me that then a lot of, you know, he said, are these the men with which I am to defend America? A lot of the chaos of the war would have driven him absolutely nuts.

[Mike Rowe]

Think about the tactics that ultimately led to his near demise at Fort Necessity, but that he ultimately embraced later in the fight when all those Red Coats just looked like targets standing in a line. And he told his own men to adapt the same tactics of the Indians and the French who kicked his ass 10 years earlier. That's a really interesting way to think about a guy. I mean, that's how you can explain two identical paintings on opposing walls in the same room.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

The man was forced to literally abandon all pretense of order in batt and let his guys.

[John Irwin]

And so that there was this hyper order at Mount Vernon. Right. So you see the two happening that he had to abandon. He had to embrace the tactics of, like, guerrilla warfare. And I think that drove him, you know, that that was such a grade that he wanted this row of roses planted exactly this way at Mount Vernon. And so you kind of see one informing the other. And he did completely embrace a new method of winning. And he was able to endure long seasons of. Of losing and of horrific stakes. And he would have been. He would have had some sort of a presence that. It's an uncommon person that after Valley Forge or after the crossing of the Delaware, before this victory or death kind of like thing to recross the Delaware. It's an uncommon person when a lot of the army could say, all I have to do is get to December 31st, and then I can go home. For thousands of those people to stay because of one person, there had to be something uncommon about this one leader that's like, I'm going to stay and fight and die for that guy, even when I don't have to. And so that, you know, a lot of storytelling is just really sitting with that and trying to find out what in the world would have forged that in anyone. Don't you think?

[Mike Rowe]

There's this other thing, too, which is maybe a level down or maybe not, but I remember when I Read. Well, Certainly at Flight 93, you know, Todd and the gang, they charged the cockpit. And then years later, that attack on the Paris train, a couple of guys get up and they just.

[John Irwin]

Tony Swift did that film. Yeah, with the. With the actual guys.

[Mike Rowe]

Movies like that and scenes in yours, when they're done, right, they make the viewer ask the question, what would I do? Yeah, what would I do on Flight 93? I'd like to think I'd be right there with them, but I don't know. I don't know. I'd like to think that I would have learned a lesson from fort necessity, like Washington did, and have the good sense to course correct my own life. But I don't know.

[John Irwin]

You know what I came to. I asked this again. It's fun to have. You never get to have extended interviews. You never actually. You know, you're always answering the same four questions.

[Mike Rowe]

Not here, man.

[John Irwin]

But. But my grandfather, I thought about this. We have eight. In depth.

[Mike Rowe]

In depth.

[John Irwin]

No, no, this is great. It's. My grandfather received the Congressional Medal of Honor in World War II. He was a radio operator on board a B29 Superfortress A.1 of his jobs was to drop a phosphorus flare. Phosphorus burns 2,000 degrees. It'll burn through steel, it'll burn underwater. They hit an air pocket. The bomb went back up into the plane, ignited in his face, and instead of trying to save himself, he actually grabbed the bomb like a football, marched it all the way to the front of the plane, threw it out of the front of the plane, and it started this series of very, very unlikely events that got him the Medal of Honor in a week. It was the only. It was a stolen medal from Pearl harbor because it's the only one in the Pacific. But he was horribly burned. He lived through the war, mostly because my grandmother, when she came back, kissed him, said, welcome home, and it gave him the will to live. But he was very much like Phantom of the Opera, like the right side of his body completely burned, his arm fused in place. And I remember he said to me, I held his medal when I was 7 years old and not knowing at the time what this would mean later on, but, you know, he said over my shoulder, freedom isn't free. And, you know, he bore the marks of this statement. But it did lead me later on in life, after his funeral, to ask that question of, like, you know, would I be able to do this? What I learned in that exploration, talking to some of the other members of the Congressional Medal of Honor Society, because the Medal of Honor is like these. These guys that do these superhuman, you know, things in, like, the blink of an eye without thinking twice. And where does that happen? What I learned. My grandfather, his dad died. He had to provide for the family. When he was 11, he signed up so his brothers wouldn't have to. What I learned was I remember asking Gary Luttrell, the medal, who's at time president of the Medal of Honor Society, like, how do you make this decision? And the idea is that you don't.

[Mike Rowe]

You don't.

[John Irwin]

Whatever you are up to, that moment manifests.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

So it's actually about. In the preparation of what has life taught you to become? So when there's moments of these great pressure and stakes. My grandfather had lived his whole life just sacrificing himself for the people he loved. That's what he did. And so when it was a moment of a bomb on the floor, what do you do? You pick it up. You try to save the people around you. That's just who you are. So what I took from that exploration. Now, having said that, if I were just to keep talking about this. This story, I was also on a Southwest flight once, and this very old guy, like, started having a seizure and was, like, on the floor beside me. And by the way, we had just taken off, and that plane did not turn around or land. So Southwest will get you there dead or alive. But. But I'm like, oh, we don't care. But then, like, someone helped, and then someone else helped, and this guy. And the first thing that went through my mind, literally the first conscious thought was like, well, he's really old and hasn't taken care of himself. I'm like, oh, my God, John, your dad, your granddad's a Medal of Honor recipient. And so I realized there, oh, I probably wouldn't do anything. A lot of people help before me. I. I don't know what I would do here. I would crowd the. So maybe that. Maybe I'm a storyteller in that DNA skipped a generation, I learned that day. But, you know, I do think that what I find very interesting is you take these heroic moments, they're actually forged over a long period of time. And you can kind of trace, whether it's George Washington or my grandfather or Churchill or whoever, you know, these. These moments in their lives are developed over a long period of time, of course. And so that's what I learned. I still feel bad about that guy. He was fine.

[Mike Rowe]

He made it through.

[John Irwin]

Once we landed in New Orleans, did they do.

[Mike Rowe]

Did they still do the Meal service for the peanuts.

[John Irwin]

They kind of did everything over him. They're like, you know, this is.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Nothing is. I love Southwest, but they're just. They're gonna get you there.

[Mike Rowe]

They're gonna get you there. You know, it's like, what's the old FedEx ad? When you absolutely, positively have to be there overnight.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Rowe]

Even if the guy besides you dies.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Anyway, I want to go back to something you kind of glossed over that I think is. Is really important today, and it had to do with his curiosity vis a vis books.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And really, one of the heroes in the movie that you haven't invoked yet is Fairfax.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Played by Kelsey Grammer. It's not a huge part, but what an influence Fairfax had. So when you talk about Washington's curiosity, interest in Cincinnatus or Seneca or really any of the Stoics, that whole Greek sort of mafia.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Right. And, like, even earlier, you talked about mentorship, you know, and that was, you know, Socrates taught Plato, Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle.

[John Irwin]

Oh, good point.

[Mike Rowe]

Taught Alexander.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Who was pretty great, you know, and so I've talked to a lot of people in that chair about how do you bring mentorship back in to the schools. But right adjacent to that is why were books so valuable? Like, there's that scene with Fairfax where he, like, takes six or seven, and Fairfax. Like, there's one at a time. Yeah, exactly. Right.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

So my theory is that they were in such short supply. Yeah. And that there was.

[John Irwin]

That's accurate.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, okay, cool. Because, like, today, we're drowning in information. I've got right here, access to everything Seneca in Cincinnatus ever wrote.

[John Irwin]

Think about that.

[Mike Rowe]

And it's free.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And I'm not reading it. I'm scrolling through people getting scared and falling down steps instead. Right. I'm not like, Like.

[John Irwin]

Which is kind of fun, actually.

[Mike Rowe]

It's great.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Don't let anybody tell you it's not

[John Irwin]

great, but what is it doing to our minds?

[Mike Rowe]

Nothing good. Yeah. Nothing good. Cat fail videos talk about scarcity with regard to books, information, and greatness.

[John Irwin]

Isn't it interesting when there's no longer scarcity of knowledge? It's sort of like if you live too close to the theme park, you don't ride the ride. Somehow it's. But back then, you know, in a scene that we portray in the film, that would have happened progressively and earlier in his life, we kind of pushed the idea of it into the movie. But Fairfax was Washington's first real patron, kind of like the the gate he walked through and Fairfax, that would've been like the rich people living down the road. Washington would have that kid down the street, you know, and they would have known about him. But there's a scene in Fairfax's library and he had 3,000 books, he called them his true tenants.

[Mike Rowe]

Washington breaks into his house.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Rowe]

Crashes a party.

[John Irwin]

Crashes a party.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah. Right. He basically leaves with books and leaves

[John Irwin]

with a gig to go survey Fairfax's land. But also with the books. And the books that he got on surveying he actually got from Fairfax's cousin. And so. So what you see with Washington is a guy whose education was denied him very early and he became incredibly curious and incredible student and reader and voracious reader. And one of the things that you don't think about the American Revolution and why it worked when most revolutions don't. Our founding fathers. It was a war of words as much as it was a war of do you want to talk about some of the great writers?

[Mike Rowe]

The best.

[John Irwin]

And you just look at Washington's writing and his penmanship and you read like, you know, we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. You know, that is the rights of man and this age of reason coming over from Europe, colliding with kind of the purpose and faith and it's also the finished product.

[Mike Rowe]

Like that's not how it was originally written. Correct.

[John Irwin]

Well, Jefferson, I think much quieter, probably the greatest mind in the history of our country. And in my opinion. But I think that that would have frustrated him greatly. And because I think he wrote it a version and then it was Franklin specifically and others of like people are going to need that. There's going to be some rewrites.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Thomas. Which I think would have been like. So Jefferson's rewrite. Jefferson wrote, we hold these words to be sacred and undeniable. Jefferson, I'm sorry, Franklin coming out for, you know, he's a scientist. He's like, no, we should go with like empirical, measurable. We hold these words to be self evident, that all men are created equal. I think one of the great, like

[Mike Rowe]

obvious, obvious like today we in parentheses we would go duh.

[John Irwin]

But the gauntlet of your saying to Europe and to England and here's the fundamental difference in America we hold this basic thing to be obvious, blatant in front of everyone's face. A no brainer. Everyone is created equal. That is a defiant sentence and a wild concept at the time, especially as

[Mike Rowe]

articulated by men in a country. And believe me, I'm only saying it because half the audience is thinking it. But where do we get off wrapping ourselves in self evident truths regarding equality while we're holding slaves? And look, I have my theory, but give me yours. How do you practice?

[John Irwin]

Well again, if you did a doc or a podcast of just words struck out by the Declaration Independence, you would get to sacred and undeniable struck out self evident that all men are created equal, everyone. Then you would get to subjects struck out with citizens. Then you would get to an entire paragraph about the evils of slavery struck out to get south.

[Mike Rowe]

South Carolina was not down Rutledge, as I recall.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, and so here is not many people know this, it's quite the study that change does not happen when people realize something is wrong. Change often waits for a moment and doesn't happen. It's a war of convenience and opportunity. So Jefferson tried to be an abolitionist when he was like 30 years old. It was so inextricably linked to the economy and so hard to deal with everyone. There was a broad consensus that this is wrong. We don't know what to do with it, we don't know how to fix it. And so what I would say in the kind of the riddle me this. First of all, it's an incredible thing to look around the world as you've always known it and say maybe it shouldn't be this way. Like that is its own act of courage. So for this group of founders to look at slavery and say we're going to go ahead and throw the gauntlet that we know in our lifetime we will never achieve, and then we don't know how to deal with this national sin. But what they did know, what Jefferson said is we're going to push this to the work of greater men, to the work of future generations. And so the idea is, my theory is what they realized is their job was to forge a nation, a solidified nation that was strong enough to deal with slavery and that that was their work and that that would set the stage for the work of future generations. That's my read on it. And my riddle me this to whoever disagrees with me is if they choose to keep that paragraph in the Declaration of Independence dealing with slavery, we're nowhere. There's no nation. And if there's no nation, there's nothing consolidated and powerful enough to deal with slavery. It's this kind of like chicken and egg conundrum. But to blame them for the paradigms of the world they grew up in, when they're the ones that actually had the boldness to Say I don't think the world should be this way.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Is ridiculous in my opinion.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, I mean it's ridiculously noble in part, but. But I think more so. It's just so human. Look, we're all hypocrites.

[John Irwin]

Yes, that's true.

[Mike Rowe]

Every single one of us preaches something slightly different than what we practice to some degree. When you think about the mind of Franklin, Jefferson Adams, all those cats, man, they weren't stupid people. They knew that a the Declaration was a death warrant and they signed it anyway. And they also knew it was the biggest invitation ever to just the rejoinder was going to be you hypocrites. But they did it anyway.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

For the reasons I think that you're suggesting. It was like you said, what's a film? It's a reflection of the filmmaker's personal life at the time he tells the story. That's what this is too. That was the moment in time.

[John Irwin]

Yeah. And it was never even supposed to be a unifying concept. There was never supposed to be a gauntlet. It was just supposed to be this committee that's writing a document for all the reasons that England sucks and we're leaving. So the courage of saying we want to summarize this whole idea bumbling up in the colonies in one sentence that was never on the kind of the like the boxes to check for that committee. So it says something about them that we're actually going to write this sentence that I think they knew would lead to a constant quest, imperfect as it is of like. It's a sentence by which we're never able to totally accomplish or measure.

[Mike Rowe]

You're talking about all men are created.

[John Irwin]

All men are created equal endowed. We're trying to figure it out today. We were trying to figure it out 50 years ago. What does that mean? And how can we form a more perfect union? And so I think that there was the. One of the things I love about this generation is they set these crazy goals. And then even in forging the Constitution, which is kind of where we became a nation, they actually baked in this idea. It was not Picasso, it was the other guy. You know, it was the idea never finished. This is a never finished document that we will just keep improving upon. And they had that self awareness. That's an incredible thing. So I don't think that again, I don't at least do the work of studying the history to understand if you're going to criticize them for the world that they came from while they dreamed of a new.

[Mike Rowe]

That's an Amazing observation, actually. The Constitution is my best argument for ceson's process.

[John Irwin]

But they're not selling the Constitution over and over again. At some point, if you're an artist, you gotta.

[Mike Rowe]

You gotta move on.

[John Irwin]

You gotta frame it in someone's house.

[Mike Rowe]

What have you done for me lately?

[John Irwin]

I would love to do a short film of this painter that's literally breaking into someone's house. Like, move, move. Just. I need a brush, you know?

[Mike Rowe]

He's like, yeah, what are you waiting for, man? Why are. Where's the story at least? Or I mean, maybe it's not a film, but your pops, dude. I mean, phosphorus bomb runs it out of the plane.

[John Irwin]

I mean, technology, I think, by the way. So if to go on that rabbit trail. So we're. So they're the lead plane. Their plane was called the city of Los Angeles and it's the Pathfinder. So they're leading 800 planes. LeMay, which is kind of like the patent of the Pacific, like Curtis. Curtis LeMay. Yeah. Was like, you never turn around. Mission over the man. You never turn around. Well, there was a colonel on board when this happened. And they started to descend because the plane was filled with smoke. He marched it to the front of the plane, threw it out over the colonel's shoulder, collapsed in flames. The colonel was so moved by what he saw that he said, I don't care if they court marshal me, turn this plane around right now. So they drop out and they were like, we're going to try to save this man's life. Because I've never seen anything like this. So the airstrip at Iwo Jima had just opened. There was still basically conflict at Iwo Jima. And so they were actually fired upon as they landed. Iwo Jima. The pilot of the plane on that colonel wrote the citation for the Congressional Medal of Honor that night. Normally it takes about a year. It's like a trial to say, does this act merit above and beyond the call of duty?

[Mike Rowe]

What was his name, your pup?

[John Irwin]

Red Erwin. Henry Eugene Irwin, they called him. Red Erwin. And as my granddad. And basically they. So they wake LeMay up at 5 in the morning on Guam, which is its own act of courage. He was so moved by what he read that he used his abrasiveness to get it to Washington. Well, all this happened the day FDR died. So it's Truman's first day in office.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh, man.

[John Irwin]

Truman said, basically, I'd rather have the Congressional Medal of Honor than be President of the United States. So here comes this first day in office. Here comes this hero in the Pacific, this guy that threw this bomb and he gets it through Congress in one day, which is never because they all thought he was going to die. It never happened before. So then it's like you were going to give the Medal of Honor posthumously to this guy. And LeMay says, no, I want to pin a Medal of Honor on this kid's neck. Well, there's only one Medal of Honor in the Pacific. When you get a Medal of Honor, you get your real one. You get a display medal. So there's one display medal, it's in a general's display case at Pearl Harbor. So they strip down a B29, it's ultra long flight from Guam. The secret mission, they land, the general's not there. They break into his office, find the key, they smash the display case, steal the.

[Mike Rowe]

You've got to be kidding.

[John Irwin]

Dead serious. All this happens when my grandfather's brother was in Saipan. And Lame asked him what, what can I do for you? He's like, I'd like to see my brother. And the. It was Tyrone Powers, the actor was doing like a tour and he was a pilot. So he flew my granddad's brother to his bedside. And he didn't recognize my granddad because he was so burned, which started this fear of like what's. He was married three months before the war, really good looking guy. What's my wife going to think? So they get him, LeMay gets this medal, they steal it, they scratch my grandfather's name in the back of it and they pin it on his neck a week after it happened, which has never happened before. And then my granddad endured like 47 surgeries or something, came back 87 pounds, clinging to life. The guy in the burn ward beside him, his wife came in, was so horrified by what she saw. So it's like, that's not my husband. And she left like I was dead of a broken heart the next morning. So my granddad was terrified of this. My grandmother comes in having only received a telegram that he was injured, married three months before the war. He goes away, this super good looking guy, you know, look like Matt Damon, he comes back, shell of a person, she comes in, he clutched the bomb like this. So the whole right side of his face she finds the only unburned portion of his cheek, kisses him and says, welcome home, I love you. That gave him the will to live. And they had five kids all after. Well, there he is, that's my granddad. So.

[Mike Rowe]

Holy crap, dude, that's like Odd Murphy.

[John Irwin]

So the story of like. But the idea of, you know, to go above and beyond the call of duty and what that means to do more than is required of you is how it.

[Mike Rowe]

That's red.

[John Irwin]

That's redder. When my granddad. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

What are you waiting for, dude? What are you waiting for?

[John Irwin]

There's only one fly. What do you need?

[Mike Rowe]

Do you need some AI because we got it.

[John Irwin]

No, we do. Yeah. My show, House of David is the one of the first shows to really integrate fully a lot of new technology. But we're waiting on I got to put 800 B29s up in the air. So I've got time. Let's let the technology you. But that would be the ultimate must.

[Mike Rowe]

Must.

[John Irwin]

Okay. If there's anything I've taken from this is Washington opens. Well, I have to do my granddad. You have to, dude. I mean, it's a great story.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, I'm just looking at your resume. You've got permission. You can do pretty much whatever you want.

[John Irwin]

I hope so.

[Mike Rowe]

But I mean, how many people in your position actually have that bit of genealogy?

[John Irwin]

Well, also, I didn't. Here's the thing of, like, the stories that we listen to, the books we read, the mentors we seek out, like you said about Washington, I would go to. My grandfather had, like, a photographic memory, a stroke late in his life. I would go over and stay with him.

[Mike Rowe]

How long did he live?

[John Irwin]

He lived 2001. I was 19 years old. And I did not listen to his stories. Like, I loved him. And we would talk, but I did not listen. And it was not until his funeral that I was sitting there, and it was like he wanted to be buried in Birmingham, where he was from. And it was very cloudy, very rainy cold. And there were, like, generals and all these people. And then there was a bomber from the 20th Air Force that found its way under the cloud line and tipped its wings. And then there were these two officers playing Taps in echoing. And I remember going up to one of them and saying, thank you for what you're doing for our family. I'm so sorry I haven't stand out here in the rain sleet. And. And they said, no, this is your father. Your grandfather's one of our nation's heroes. This is our honor. And it just flipped a switch of curiosity, of, like, what did I miss? So I got to go all over the country and find his only living crew members and eyewitnesses and talk to them and listen and absolute blessing. And one of them said he didn't save 11 guys. He saved generations of people. And so. And then a long time, I was like, what does this mean for me of going above and beyond the call of duty? For me, it's just, do the best you can. Do more than is required of you.

[Mike Rowe]

What's his wife's name?

[John Irwin]

Betty.

[Mike Rowe]

Okay. See, this is why I ask you at the beginning, how do you know where to start a story? Yeah. I mean, I ask myself the same question all the time because there's no real right answer. I mean, Travis Mills, familiar with him? He's a friend of ours. He came back from Afghanistan, I think, one of the first or second to quadruple amputees to survive. Wow.

[John Irwin]

Now I know this person. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Okay. He wrote a book called, I think the Harder They Come or Never Quit or one of those things. I'll find it. But, I mean, there's so many things I could tell you about. Tough as they come. Tough as they come. But the thing is. It's his wife. Yeah, it's his wife. He's out. He's blown up. He's got no arms, he's got no legs. Yeah. And he's got no clear path forward. And his first kid, I think, is on the way. Right. And he's just in a hospital on the other side of the world, and he's just. There's just no way, man. There's just no way.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

And, you know, by the time they get in the same room together, she's like, no, no, no, I didn't. You know, I signed on. He said, you didn't sign on for this? And she said, I signed on exactly for this. The uncertainty of it. This is not going anywhere.

[John Irwin]

You know, my grandmother. There was a moment when my.

[Mike Rowe]

There she is. These two.

[John Irwin]

That's incredible. Look at that. There was a moment like that.

[Mike Rowe]

They've had a second kid.

[John Irwin]

They're raising their. I mean, it's just my grandfather. I remember my granddad had a stroke. This was about a year before he died. And I remember he caught my grandmother's eye across the room. And it was like two starstruck teenage lovers, like. And I'm like, what in the. Here's this guy, horribly burned. Now he's half. His body's paralyzed. He can't walk. And the way they look to each other. So after he died, I interviewed my grandmother, and I just said, how do you make. What did you know? All she knew was he had been injured. That's it. Okay, now you come in.

[Mike Rowe]

It's her movie.

[John Irwin]

87 pounds, 45, surgeries already. Arm fused in place. Horrific burns. Like, I've got a picture on my mantle with him because he went and saw the presidents with jfk and he would turn like this for photos, you know, because his face was so burned. And I said, basically, how did you choose to stay? Like, how. Especially in this kind of, like, you know, Kardashian culture we live in now. Like, how do you. How do you do it? And she couldn't even contemplate. She couldn't understand the question. Like, she's just like, I don't understand. How would I not? Why would I. That was my husband. She's my husband. Like, there was no other option.

[Mike Rowe]

Right. So the same quality in red that really gives him no choice but to pick up the phosphorus bomb and run to the front.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Is the same quality in her.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't want any credit, but that maybe a walk on if this is my next movie. This is your next movie. It's that look.

[John Irwin]

It's.

[Mike Rowe]

It's called the Kiss.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

It's told through Betty's point of view.

[John Irwin]

Huh.

[Mike Rowe]

It's got all the excitement you need. But everything you said, it's like, yes, his bravery, his moment.

[John Irwin]

Oh, yeah. But the real strength, man.

[Mike Rowe]

But her walking in, and I've always felt like part of his face that's not peeling off. Dude, are you. There won't be a dry eye in the house.

[John Irwin]

And just said, welcome home. I love you. And that's what gave him the will to live.

[Mike Rowe]

And they had.

[John Irwin]

They had five kids, all after the war, my dad being the second. He worked at the VA hospital for 30 years helping other veterans get their wound, you know, get their benefits. And. Yeah, I've just, you know, it's very moving to me. It's certainly the story that has driven my film career is to have those awestruck moments where you say, how does someone do that? And then to try to cipher their life to answer that question. That's the idea. And I do love Adept, when they say a filmmaker finds their story and tells it over and over again. I love adaptations of true stories. And so, yeah, I always thought continuing Washington, but maybe, you know, that he's dead. He's gone, man.

[Mike Rowe]

He's on my.

[John Irwin]

I can get there. Maybe it's time for my granddad story. And if it did, it happened right here.

[Mike Rowe]

It's so good.

[John Irwin]

It's.

[Mike Rowe]

I want to be. Respectfully, how long I've been gone by, like, hour 20 or something.

[John Irwin]

Yeah, 20 exactly.

[Mike Rowe]

I'm.

[John Irwin]

I'm happy to. I'm. I've got time.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, the guy who's coming in next, dude, is just something else.

[John Irwin]

You gotta, you gotta.

[Mike Rowe]

I know a lot of people that

[John Irwin]

have sat in this chair.

[Mike Rowe]

You know what? Well, as you were just talking, I was thinking our friend Gary Sinise was here not long ago. Gary Sinise, and I asked him a similar question about Medal of Honor recipients.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

I don't think anybody's ever been in the presence of more of them.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Than him.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

I'd actually written a story about Jack Lucas, the kid who stowed away on a carrier to ewo.

[John Irwin]

Yes.

[Mike Rowe]

They found him. They were gonna court martial him, and he talked his way into the battle and that crazy son of a gun threw himself on two grenades.

[John Irwin]

It's incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

One went off, the other didn't. Didn't kill him. His book's called Indestructible.

[John Irwin]

Incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

But the point is, that guy forged his mother's name after Pearl harbor and got in when he was 13.

[John Irwin]

Incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

By the time he's on IWO, he's like 16.

[John Irwin]

Incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

And so he's the youngest Medal of

[John Irwin]

Honor 16 years old. It's. Look, it's the greatest generation for a reason.

[Mike Rowe]

Well, that's what I wrote. I'm like, how. I mean, Washington at necessity was 21. 22.

[John Irwin]

21. Going in 22. I think it's 22 when it happened. Gosh, look it up.

[Mike Rowe]

The guy who's coming in Here next is 22. His name's Ethan Thornton. He's running what's probably gonna be the most consequential defense industrial company in business today. He's leading the charge for autonomous weapons.

[John Irwin]

Incredible.

[Mike Rowe]

He dropped out of MIT to start this company that's now valued at 1.8 billion.

[John Irwin]

He was a teal kid, right?

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah, he was a Thiel fellow. Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Right. By the way. Yeah. The whole founders, that whole paper mafia. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

But it rhymes, man. Like, like, if you like. Why am I so impressed with the fact that Ethan is 22?

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

When that's kind of the way it was from the beat that it's only recently that we've become so, like, dopido be dope. Dope. I mean, our founders, our generals.

[John Irwin]

Jefferson writes probably one of the most perfect sentences ever written. He's how old? He's. He's 33, I think. 30. He's young. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Or he just wants to get home and get ladies, you know?

[John Irwin]

You know, it's like my thing is young people can change the world and that's one of the things that I wanted to point out in the film is I wanted to show with Washington that this was an adventure. It's entertaining. But this guy was young and you don't have to wait to change the world wherever. Or your world, wherever you are.

[Mike Rowe]

How old was Red when he picked up the bump?

[John Irwin]

He was 23 in that world. There's a pattern here, by the way. You should do something of, like, I'm always interested in. Somebody told me one time, if you're around great people don't learn what they do, learn how they think. So as many people as sat in this chair, it'd be interesting to say, like, what are the common characteristics of thinking or values that.

[Mike Rowe]

That I'll give you one that you don't read about. A bunch. They're agitated.

[John Irwin]

They're contrarian in a way.

[Mike Rowe]

They're contrarian. They're all. They're open to the reverse commute. They're suspicious of the direction where everybody is going.

[John Irwin]

Interesting.

[Mike Rowe]

They're looking for an alternative way to do it. But mostly they just wake up agitated that the world's not quite the way

[John Irwin]

no one would think of this. And they're the ones that let that agitation, finally.

[Mike Rowe]

They're disagreeable.

[John Irwin]

I agree with that, by the way. You want to. We are a nation founded by rebels. Like, remember that. You know, I'm saying, like, these were contrarian. You know, they didn't like the way the world was and they dreamed of a better one.

[Mike Rowe]

And they didn't just dream of it, man.

[John Irwin]

And then they rolled up their sleeves and they. They willed it into existence.

[Mike Rowe]

When in the course of human events. Events. It becomes necessary.

[John Irwin]

Yeah. Are you kidding me?

[Mike Rowe]

That's not a dream. You know, somebody asked me.

[John Irwin]

Yeah. It's true.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh. It becomes necessary for necessity.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

Coincidence.

[John Irwin]

Maybe not.

[Mike Rowe]

Oh. I assume you saw 1776, the musical.

[John Irwin]

Yes. Not in a great, great length of time, but yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, I. There's so many things you said reminded me of it, but mostly just as a very different piece of art.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

This is a Broadway musical that for me, did more to open that portal to the past than really any other thing I've ever seen.

[John Irwin]

You know, here's my hope. Whether it's 1776, certainly not. I finally did see Hamilton. Never with the original cast, but multiple times.

[Mike Rowe]

But you're not bitter.

[John Irwin]

But I'm not bitter about it, but. But I'm like, I'm going to rage against this. I was kept out of kindergarten. Now it's this play and, and it does something to you, but I will, I hope, if there was any invitation I could give. First of all, I hope people love the movie. It is out nationwide. It's the only movie that celebrates the American story in theaters nationwide on our 250. So I hope you love it. Go check it out. I made it for my whole family. Like, my youngest is nine. So it's visceral, it's PG13, but in a way that he loves. So go take your family to see it. Or you don't care about America. I'm kidding. But. But it's.

[Mike Rowe]

No, I don't think you are, man.

[John Irwin]

Go see the movie.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Having said that, my hope is that people will go on the same. Sounds like 1776 might have started it for you. Go on a bender. Of learning the origin of our country. First of all, the story lives up to its hype. It's an incredible story.

[Mike Rowe]

Yeah.

[John Irwin]

Like, once you start learning, you can't stop. But second, you know, cynicism and gratitude cancel each other out. You cannot feel both emotions at the same time. And so I think, I would argue that so many of the problems that we're having come from this fact that we don't know our origin story and, and we don't understand why we're here and, and what America is. And I think if you take the time to learn it, what all I can tell you is what happened to me. What happened to me is when I really took time to study the American Revolution and the founding of our country and the idea of what America represents and is, I was filled with on wonder and gratitude and a sense of stewardship and pride. And like this American experiment, this idea is somehow entrusted to us. 250, that's a cool anniversary. But you know, you go to Greece or somewhere like where we film House of David, you realize, oh, we're still like a little Ikea story. This is still a new idea and it's entrusted to us. And my hope is that people will see the movie, love it, and then go on their own quest to. And then the story will do the work, but of just understanding who we are, why we're here, and that we're a nation bound by ideas and ideals and. And that's my hope. That's my hope for ultimately for what I hope the movie provokes. It's the same thing when I, when I went through, you know, your eight minute podcast about the Tavern, like, I instantly had to know, did this really happen? And what does this mean? And was this is this tavern, a real place. And. And that's my hope, is that. That people will see the movie, that will love it. And my oath is that, you know, I'm gonna do as much as I can to tell American stories. And whether it's my granddad's is a great idea or continued Washington or whatever, that would be my dream, if the movie really works in a fundamental way. But I do think ultimately, we. We have way more that unites us than divides us, and we've just lost sight of it. And my hope is that the movie will be one of those things that could be an agent of getting us to. To love the. The ethos of our country together.

[Mike Rowe]

I think it can do that. Seriously. But I also think, given the occasion, it's a celebration.

[John Irwin]

Yeah.

[Mike Rowe]

It'll make. I mean, in real time, what. I watched it in June tomorrow, you know, right after this podcast drops. You can watch it on the 4th of July. Yeah, it is a terrific way to celebrate the country. But it's also. Who called Washington the indispensable man?

[John Irwin]

Oh, man.

[Mike Rowe]

See if you can find that.

[John Irwin]

Someone did call Washington the indispensable man. And that is a true statement, like, sure there. It's undeniable that if this guy does not. And here's the crazy thing is, he knew he had an awareness, especially when he went back, as he said, to the gallows to become president. He knew he embodied the concept. He knew he was the galvanizing figure. And twice he gave up absolute power, gave it back to the people after his model Cincinnatus. That is incredible. Someone that's so aware of their power and so willing to give it up.

[Mike Rowe]

Dude, I don't want to end on anything remotely cynical, but when you think. Think about what drives power today, what drives ambition today. When you look at how hard someone will work to hold elected office, when you look at the absolute absurdity of people staying in office for 50, 60 years. Yeah, right, like that. When you see the political superstructure become the goal of the individual, that's not what Cincinnatus was thinking. That's not what was baked into any of the founding documents. Yes.

[John Irwin]

The idea of a republic, this idea of government, of the people, by the people, for the people. I think it's such a simple concept, but it's the last line of the movie, and I think it's true. The idea that to lead is to serve. That's the job. It's not about you. It's not about what you can accomplish. It's not about it's to lead is to be in service to the people that you're entrusted with and to the idea itself. You know, JFK said ideas live on. You know, that type thing. I think we would do well to remember that. And then I also think as I've studied it, what's missing of like I'll tell you how to cure a partisan dividend, a dictator. Like our form of government. One of the things that makes our form of government unique is our ability to argue. And it a republic is indistinguishable. You cannot separate a partisan divide from the idea of a democracy, of a republic. So we gotta remember how to argue. Well in the sense of like the point is we can even celebrate. We get to argue. There's some countries where if you argue, bad things happen to you. That's not America. We get to argue. And that actually is one of the things that makes us unique. But in studying the American Revolution and in studying books, I'm like, what is the difference? I think one of the defining differences is you had a group of people that actually had true intellectual curiosity to find out what works and what was true. And I think what we've lost is we just want to be right. It's kind of very tribal and it's us versus them. There was partisan divides then in some cases you could argue it was even worse. We don't have duels anymore. But maybe we should.

[Mike Rowe]

Maybe we should. But hey look, that's a deep rabbit hole.

[John Irwin]

What was missing?

[Mike Rowe]

You know, the death of manners is linked to the absence of consequence and a duel. Well said, ultimate love letter.

[John Irwin]

Maybe we should bring duels back. You heard it here. But it's. But basically. But basically even like Jefferson and Adams dying 50 years to the day after the document that they co wrote after they were on each end of a partisan divide and then wrote letters to each other and then died on the same day of the document they wrote 50 years later. It just shows that they could win each other over. They had the courage to be wrong and to admit that they were wrong and to evolve in their thinking. And they had true intellectual curiosity. And I think about a basic respect for the other side and a basic loyalty to the overall idea despite their differences. And we would do well to remember that as well. Like we're not each other's enemy even when we differ. We're just trying to figure this thing out.

[Mike Rowe]

You know, Young Washington will remind you of all of those things.

[John Irwin]

Who said it, Charlie James Thomas Flexner historian He wrote a book called Washington, the indispensable man.

[Mike Rowe]

So then I can't steal it for the title of this, but maybe I could.

[John Irwin]

I don't see why not. Good artist copy great artist Steel.

[Mike Rowe]

Hey, man, you know what? It all rhymes, doesn't it?

[John Irwin]

It does.

[Mike Rowe]

And I don't know you well enough to say this, but I would wager Reds looking down, giving you a big thumbs up.

[John Irwin]

That means a lot to me, man. Although there is nothing like a great conversation, many of them have been had across the stable. So I'm gonna sit then sit here. And I'm a fan.

[Mike Rowe]

I can't wait to get my lawyers involved. After the kiss goes to number one with Betty and Red.

[John Irwin]

You heard it here. You know what's interesting is just trying to crack the story. Yeah, yeah, man, you've ruined me now. I'm going to be releasing a movie. I'm like, oh, it's my grandmother's kids. It's her point of view. Oh, my gosh. Ever since Rose, where do you start the story?

[Mike Rowe]

And now I see it, you know, now I understand.

[John Irwin]

And then if Washington really works, everybody's going to be like, sequel to Washington. I'm like, no, but I watched the microphone. I've got to go do my granddad story now.

[Mike Rowe]

You know what?

[John Irwin]

It's providential, it's divine hand. It's a thing. Wonderful conversation, real pleasure.

[Mike Rowe]

Go see the movie. Bring the whole family. You shall be restored. Thank you, John Earl.

[John Irwin]

He said it great. Thank you.

[Mike Rowe]

This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long. But if it made you smile, then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online. And leave us a review. I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge. But in this world the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Number four. All you got to do is leave a quick 5 star review.

[John Irwin]

And not three.

[Mike Rowe]

All you got to do is Leave a quick 5 star review. Definitely not two.

[John Irwin]

All you got to do is LEAVE

[Mike Rowe]

a quick 5 star review. We need five. All you got to do is leave a quick. Even if you hate it. Five star. Especially if you hate it.

[John Irwin]

Thank you.

[Mike Rowe]

It.