America vs. The Rest with Alastair Campbell

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

Episode Title: America vs. The Rest with Alastair Campbell
Release Date: March 25, 2026
Guests: Alastair Campbell, former press secretary to Tony Blair, co-host of The Rest Is Politics podcast

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Episode Overview

Jon Stewart hosts an in-depth conversation with Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair's former right hand and prominent UK political strategist. The discussion centers around the current US-UK relationship, the new US-Iran conflict, legacy of past interventions like Iraq and Afghanistan, and the shifting nature of global alliances amid the rise of right-wing populism and authoritarian politics. Campbell offers a critical "across the pond" perspective on American power, the erosion of Western values, and the urgent need for moral and strategic clarity in an increasingly chaotic world order.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. US-UK "Special Relationship" & Current Iran Conflict

[04:39]

• Stewart asks how the run-up to war with Iran compares to the Iraq war, focusing on the changing dynamic between the US and UK.
• Campbell notes real differences:
  • In Iraq, there was a genuine (if mistaken) belief in a growing threat from Saddam Hussein, and efforts to build a UN coalition.
  • Campbell: “There was a genuine belief that there was a growing threat from Saddam Hussein, which I don't believe there is anybody beyond Donald Trump saying there was a growing threat from Iran right now to the United States.” [05:10]
  • Congress and international partners were more involved during Iraq, whereas Trump’s approach is unilateral and personality-driven.
• Starmer (UK PM) declined to join US strikes on Iran beyond defensive support, angering Trump but not fundamentally harming the intelligence and defense links.

2. The Erosion of Trust in Institutions & The Media

[08:00]

• Stewart observes that repeated Western interventions have eroded the public’s belief in government and expertise, fueling populist backlash (Brexit, immigration crises).
• Discussion about Starmer’s uncharismatic style and its impact on Labour’s fortunes; Campbell notes that voters may have wanted a departure from showy populism but are now disillusioned.
• Campbell: “It has. It has. And you have to ask yourself whether that would have happened anywhere in Europe right now.” [12:01]

3. Lessons (Un)learned from Iraq & Afghanistan

[13:52]

• Stewart presses whether Western interventions are inherently arrogant or doomed to fail, as “the West can influence but they can't control.”
• Campbell acknowledges, with hindsight, the arrogance of thinking the West can improve other nations through force:
  • “Maybe given the cost of Afghanistan and the fact the Taliban are back in charge now, I would argue Iraq is a better country than it was. But ... there was a massive cost in life, in money and all the rest.” [14:19]
  • Stewart: “America seems to forget that enshrined in our Constitution is this idea that people would like to be in charge of their own governments ...” [16:06]

4. Trump’s Presidency: Authoritarianism, Media Normalization & Hubris

[18:00]

• Stewart and Campbell dissect how Trump’s second term is breaking norms and openly rejecting post-WWII rules of engagement.
  • Stewart: “He came out the other day, no quarter, no mercy, no ... we're getting rid of all that.” [18:19]
• Both bemoan the media’s normalization of Trump’s abnormal behavior and reluctance to challenge or fact-check him.
  • Campbell: “... most of the media has given up even pointing that out. ... even the media that is not normally completely in his pocket, they just don't do enough of saying, excuse me, that is wrong.” [27:03]

5. NATO, Europe, and Power Shifts

[37:24]

• Campbell expresses serious doubts about NATO’s ability to restrain the US, especially with Trump’s cavalier attitude.
  • “I've reached the feeling that Trump is on Putin's side when it comes to Ukraine. Well, if you're on Putin's side, you're not on NATO's side.” [37:48]
• Stewart points out that even when past US presidents acted multilaterally (in Iraq, Afghanistan), outcomes were poor, questioning the basic wisdom of US/Western interventionism.

6. Global Realignment & The Rise of Right-wing Populism

[44:29]

• The new global division is characterized not as capitalism vs. communism, but “woke vs. unwoke,” with the US increasingly aligning ideologically with authoritarian, nativist leaders like Putin and Orban.
  • Stewart: “...the new world order in their minds is woke versus unwoke. ... they are more ideologically aligned with Putin than Macron, ... than with Starmer.” [43:55]

7. Israel, Netanyahu, and Middle East Stalemates

[53:10]

• Stewart states that Netanyahu’s response to violence has become “bomb the ambition” out of people, which is futile and increases resistance.
  • “What he's trying to do is bomb the ambition out of people. He's trying to bomb their will away.” [53:10]
• Campbell highlights Israeli settler violence and regional power plays (e.g. Saudi Arabia urging Trump to "finish the job"), underscoring the chaos and lack of a coherent strategy or values.

8. Is Democracy Losing Credibility?

[61:22]

• Stewart and Campbell wonder if democracy, as an “operating system,” has lost its moral and pragmatic authority amid stagnating economic prospects and populist backlash.
  • Campbell: “We've had a generation growing up with no guarantee whatsoever that they're going to be better off than their parents’ generation. I think that is what's driving a lot of what's in Europe.” [62:22]
• Comparisons are drawn between Western bureaucratic gridlock and authoritarian efficiency, though the latter often comes at great human cost.

9. Media Responsibility, Corruption, and the Fight for Values

[70:05]

• Stewart laments the media’s shallow, repetitive coverage and lack of investigative vigor regarding corruption and malfeasance.
• Both stress the need for renewed courage among politicians, the press, and the public to challenge illiberal currents and re-anchor societies in democratic values.

10. Glimmers of Hope & The Fight Back

[71:10–74:00]

• Campbell points to hopeful signs: political leaders like Canada’s Mark Carney, Australia’s Peter Malinowskis, resistance to far-right advances in recent French and Italian elections, and activism among younger generations.
• Campbell: “My sense of the younger generation is that they get how bad this is, and they know that it's going to be on them to get us out of it.” [72:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On past interventions:

  • “...there was a genuine belief that there was a growing threat from Saddam Hussein, which I don't believe there is anybody beyond Donald Trump saying there was a growing threat from Iran right now to the United States.”
    — Alastair Campbell [05:10]

• On the West’s arrogance:

  • “America seems to forget that enshrined in our Constitution is this idea that people would like to be in charge of their own governments, the taxation without representation.”
    — Jon Stewart [16:26]

• On the media and normalization:

  • “The normalization of utterly abnormal behavior for a president, any president.”
    — Alastair Campbell [24:19]

• On the changing global order:

  • “The new world order in their minds is woke versus unwoke.”
    — Jon Stewart [43:55]

• On media cowardice and democracy:

  • “But why is that not on the news every night? Why is the media so quiet and so scared?”
    — Alastair Campbell [69:15]

• On values and the antidote to authoritarianism:

  • Stewart: “Is the antidote to authoritarianism morality or competence?”
  • Campbell: “You gotta have both. But I would say … the values bit is the big part of the foundation.” [75:12]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 04:39 | Contrasts between the Iraq and current Iran war approaches; US-UK ‘special relationship’ | | 13:52 | Are Western interventions destined for failure? | | 18:00 | Trump’s “no rules” style and the normalization of unfit presidential behavior | | 27:03 | Why the media lets Trump lie unchecked | | 37:24 | Can NATO restrain Trump/US? | | 43:55 | “Woke vs. unwoke” as the new line of division in world politics | | 53:10 | Netanyahu, violence as strategy, and the deadlocked Middle East | | 61:22 | The declining status of democracy and challenges from China, Russia | | 71:10 | Where is hope for liberal democracy? Emerging leaders and youth activism |

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Tone & Language

• The conversation is pointed, irreverent, at times bleakly humorous, and always unflinching. Stewart’s trademark blend of satire and serious inquiry meshes with Campbell’s UK candor and strategic perspective.
• Both are relentless in criticizing the arrogance and shortsightedness of Western interventions, the failures of media and political courage, and the global threat posed by rising populist movements and authoritarian leaders.

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Summary Usefulness:
This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a brutally honest, cross-Atlantic look at the fate of Western power and liberal democracy in an age of populism and foreign policy recklessness. Campbell’s insights ground the discussion in history and practicality, while Stewart repeatedly prods the more fundamental questions of power, legitimacy, and values. Listeners will come away with a nuanced understanding of why the West finds itself at a crossroads—and what it might take to reverse course.

Transcript

[Alistair Campbell]

Foreign.

[Jon Stewart]

So I'm, I'm kind of a. I'm kind of a chef type. Chef type dude. Kind of a. You know, a lot of times people watch me at home, they'll be like, are you on the bear? And I'll be like, well, I could see how you made that mistake. I like to, I like to throw down for a little bit of the mantra. But, you know, for me, the one problem I have is, you know, the, the olive oil. How much do you use is the proper olive oil? I used to have an olive oil fountain in the house, like a chocolate fountain, but it was, it's sloppy, a lot of slippage. But Graza extra virgin olive oil, always fresh. They pick, press, bottle all their olives in the same season. You know me, I used to bottle them. It must have been 10, 20 years. Same olives, you pick between their two blends. You got sizzle, you got drizzle. Available in glass bottles or cool squeeze bottles for everyday cooking. That'd be your sizzle. You're roasting, your sauteing, you drizzle. That's you. You dip a bread, you drizzle over ice cream. That's right. People do that. And they also put salt on it. Look, I'm very sophisticated. The bottles and refill cans are 100% opaque to block UV rays that degrade the oil and it keeps it fresh. So head to Graza Co and use TWS to get 10% off and get to cooking your next chef quality meal. Now at the Home Depot. Receive 12 months special financing and free basic installation on carpet projects with lifeproof. Lifeproof with pet proof technology, home decorators, collection and traffic. Master carpets bring a new look to your floors or give them a durable surface that stands up to life's tough messes. Get 12 months special financing on installed carpet projects right now at the Home Depot. Offer valid March 12 through March 29, 2026. Exclusions and additional charges may apply for licenses. See homedepot.com licensenumb foreign. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the weekly show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart. It is Tuesday, March 24th. We are in between deadlines, I think with Iran and I, I wanted to get a sense right now, you know, we talk a lot about, geez, how did we get here? And Trump, he's just impulsive and he didn't do it the right way. But I seem to remember there were other wars that we've gotten into that did get into the right way, but were equally as foolhardy and useless. Speaking, of course, of Iraq and Perhaps Libya and a variety other things. And I thought, well, let me get, I'd like to get the perspective of someone that I met years ago who is active in the Tony Blair administration over in the United Kingdom. And I thought he was behind the scenes there. He has a great perspective on the inner workings of how we ended up going to war in Iraq and, and lots of the other, and I'm sure opinions about NATO and Donald Trump and all kinds of other things. So I'm just going to get to it. I'm excited to talk to him again. It's, it's been a long time, but please welcome an old friend, Alistair Campbell. We are joined, thank goodness, from someone who can give us the view from across the Atlantic, our special relationship. It's Alistair Campbell, co host of the Rest Is Politics podcast. But obviously, Alistair Campbell, writer, podcaster, campaigner, strategist, worked with Tony Blair, worked with every labor politician known to man, and a co host with our good friend Rory Stewart.

[Alistair Campbell]

Alistair, John, thank you so much for such a lovely welcome.

[Jon Stewart]

It was a lovely welcome, wasn't it? It's a delight to see you again. It's been too many years and I have to say, what an exciting time to reconnect as the world. We're doing it again. Alistair, welcome to another episode of the exciting series, let's Go to War in the Middle East.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, well, I remember you once absolutely skewered me at the end of one of your.

[Jon Stewart]

I would never in.

[Alistair Campbell]

You did. It was well done, though, because I, I thought I've got, this is on the Daily show and I, I saw and I, I just published my first volume of diaries, I thought, and I was really on a roll and I was getting through it and I said, look, this, this book is just trying to show that in the end politicians are just human beings. And you just said, like Iraqis and moved away and on to the next item. So you did well. Yeah, you did well. You did well.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, well, it was, look, well, look, famously, you were with Tony Blair. You wrote his speeches. You were his press secretary during that time in the run up to the Iraq war. So from your vantage point, how does this Iran war differ? How does the relationship between the United States and Great Britain differ in the run up to this? And what are your general thoughts on what we're seeing?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I think the first thing to say is that the, you know, I know that a lot of people will now say because of the way the intelligence plan panned out, that we got it wrong, but there was a genuine belief that there was a growing threat from Saddam Hussein, which I don't believe there is anybody beyond Donald Trump saying there was a growing threat from Iran right now to the United States. The second thing I would say the big difference is that Congress was involved. And even though there were people in the American administration at the time, notably Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who didn't particularly want to go down the United nations route, George W. Bush at least tried to get some kind of agreement through the United Nations. I think then the other thing I would say in relation to the so called special relationship, and I don't even know this, John, is 80 years to the week that that phrase was first coined. In a speech. Yep. In a speech. Churchill.

[Jon Stewart]

Did you write that speech, Alistair?

[Alistair Campbell]

No, I, I'm only 60. I'm only 68. I would have written it. I would obviously have thought of that as. And you know what I think it's really interesting when you go back and read that speech.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

Is he wasn't saying this is a special relationship from the, the point of view of an equal. If you read it carefully, you get the feeling he's saying that we really want this to be a special relationship. Now, it has been on many, many levels, but it's become a bit of a cliche, the special relationship. So Harold Wilson famously did not support America with troops in the Vietnam War and it kind of survived. But I think at the time of the Iraq War, Tony Blair was pretty, he was absolutely sure that if, unless there was a fundamental breach on the approach, then we had to be with the Americans. What I think you've seen here is Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, who is on record as saying we have to learn some lessons from the Iraq war. And one of them is you have to be pretty sure that you're going into something where you know what you're going into. You have to be pretty sure about the legality. And I mean, Trump has thrown his toys out the pram several times at Starmer because Starmer would not engage in the initial attacks. But I think, and he's basically said you can use our bases, but only for defensive purposes, etc. But that has clearly upset Trump. I don't think fundamentally it's upset the, the kind of meat of the special relationship. My sense is the intelligence agencies still work together pretty well. The defense people work together pretty well. But we're in a different era. I don't think we're in a different era because of any change on our side in our attitudes to the United States of America. But I think we're in a different era because of the personality and the character of Trump and this administration.

[Jon Stewart]

Do you wonder, you know, that's an interesting point, because I wonder if we're in a different era because people view authority and expertise and government differently, that our adventures in Iraq so eroded the credibility. I mean, I think you can draw kind of a straight line between United States interventionism and maybe even the immigration crisis in Europe and Brexit and that. You know, it's so interesting because you talk about Blair. I thought Blair and Bush seemed like peers, that there was a relationship of. I don't want to say equals, because I think the arrogance of the United States wouldn't allow. Wouldn't allow for equals. Starmer, bless his heart, who came in on such a rush and whose popularity is now somewhere between Liz Truss and Liz Truss's lettuce. You know, he doesn't seem to be on that same level, and so is the relationship changed. And maybe that's because nobody can be with Trump because he won't allow it. He considers himself a pharaoh, so it's impossible to have that kind of relationship.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I mean, what's so interesting about this is, over the course of the first part of Trump's second term.

[Jon Stewart]

Mm.

[Alistair Campbell]

Keir Starmer seemed to be developing that relationship in that. Now, I always thought it was likely to collapse, because, as you say, I don't think Trump recognizes or appreciate or respects anybody apart from himself, but Keir Starmer, who's not a showy guy, but, you know, the whole thing of dipping into his pocket and pulling out the letter and the invitation from the king,

[Jon Stewart]

it was so bad.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay.

[Jon Stewart]

It was so. It felt so obsequious when he said, this has never happened before, you know, and when he pulled it out, I thought, oh, my God, it's a Target gift card. Is that that he's got in his pocket?

[Alistair Campbell]

It's a letter from the king.

[Jon Stewart]

A letter from the king.

[Alistair Campbell]

And of course, in Trump's head, Trump basically thinks he's the king of your country.

[Jon Stewart]

Sure.

[Alistair Campbell]

So K Star is like bringing this missive from the actual head of your country, the king. So that was. Even though, as you say, you could cringe at it and you cringed at it, and maybe I cringed a little bit, but at the same time, it did the job. And then the state visit came along, and for a while. So, for example, take the tariffs. Trump did seem for a while that he wanted to be a little bit nicer to the UK than he was being to others. Okay. Now, what seems to have really royally pissed him off is the fact that when he picked up the phone and said, oh, by the way, Bibi's been on the phone Kia, and we're bombing Iran tomorrow, and it'd be great if you guys came along. And that seems to me, was the level of preparation he was expecting a yes answer to.

[Jon Stewart]

That's right.

[Alistair Campbell]

Keir Starmer said no. Now, where. You're also right. Keir Starmer is not a kind of Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Barack Obama kind of politician. And I think part of the reason maybe why he got a landslide victory here is because this country was sick of people like Boris Johnson being Prime minister and people like Donald Trump being dominating the debate the whole time. And therefore, why don't we get somebody a bit more serious, a bit of a lawyer? And that has not. In terms of. Certainly, if you look at the polls, that has not worked out well.

[Jon Stewart]

Do you think that's because, you know, in some respects, he gets in on this huge movement towards labor and then he decides. My best strategy is, what if we governed like a sort of Thatcherism light, like we. We go with austerity and we go. And everybody was like, wait. I mean, it really has fueled the more extremes, I think, in. In England, the way that he's gone about it has Britain.

[Alistair Campbell]

Britain.

[Jon Stewart]

Britain.

[Alistair Campbell]

Sorry, UK Britain. You said England.

[Jon Stewart]

I meant uk. I meant Britain. I meant Great Britain.

[Alistair Campbell]

You meant Great Britain.

[Jon Stewart]

That's what I meant.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're right. It has. It has. It has. And. And you have to. But you have to ask yourself whether that would have happened anywhere in Europe right now. Now, it's interesting. This week has actually been very, very interesting. You had some big elections in France at the weekend for all the mayors, and the far right did not do as well as they expected to. No, you had, you had Maloney yesterday losing a referendum on judicial reform here. Finally, I think we are through peak Farage and he's starting to dip in the polls. So I'm more confident.

[Jon Stewart]

You can never have peak farage. You know that, John. Now, why is that even Farage is backing away from Trump at this moment? Is it that Trump is. Although he did visit him at Mar a Lago, I think, last week.

[Alistair Campbell]

He didn't see him. He didn't see him.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, well, if. If you can't get an audience with the King.

[Alistair Campbell]

He was stood up. He was stood up by the King.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes. You know why? He should have told him. I have in my pocket. And then he would have been ushered in and been given a greeting. There are we. Look, I want to go back to this because you were with, you said something earlier that I thought was really interesting. There was a sincere belief that Saddam Hussein was a growing danger and that that is why I don't think there's any question that the ayatollah in Iran was a danger. But is that the bar that we now look at as, as intervention? And is it possible that the lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan and now Iran and all the way back to Sykes Pico and whatever else we want to take it to is that the west can influence but they can't control, and that if we don't learn the difference between those two, we are destined for these utterly foreseeable consequences of our kind of cavalier and arrogant interventions?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I certainly see this one more clearly in that light than I did Afghanistan and Iraq at the time. But if you, if you look at the.

[Jon Stewart]

Why, why though, Alistair?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, partly because, partly because I was there and we were trying to because we did believe what we were saying, because we were trying to build a coalition and there was a coalition of sorts that was being built. But to be absolutely honest, I think because of the motivation of Trump. Trump is such a huge and consequential figure, and if you have a view as settled as mine, that he is amoral, that he is all about himself, that he is corrupt, that he is enriching himself and his family and his friends as he sort of, you know, marauds around the place. Yes, I have to dig really, really deep to find a positive motivation. Now, that being said, that being said, Iran is a horrible regime. But I think what you're saying in your question is actually to the point that maybe given the cost of Afghanistan and the fact the Taliban are back in charge now, I would argue Iraq is a better country than it was. But I accept there was a massive cost in life, in money and all the rest. But I wonder what you are saying is, isn't it better and less arrogant for the west to do what it can to pursue a policy of containment about some of these threats that we see in different parts of the world, and that was what the JCPOA was all about.

[Jon Stewart]

I think that's exactly what I'm saying. And if you look at so we have a view that violence can solve any of these issues. We did it in, you know, it wasn't just Iraq and Afghanistan, it was Libya, it was Syria. We were arming rebel groups as we went through there. And we can talk about, is Iraq in a better place than it was under Saddam Hussein? I think the question is, is that our decision to make? You know, America seems to forget that enshrined in our Constitution is this idea that people would like to be in charge of their own governments, the taxation without representation. I won't get into the whole thing. You may have read about it years ago about.

[Alistair Campbell]

Indeed I have. Indeed I have.

[Jon Stewart]

But this idea that we can say to Iranians, your government is terrible and you're suffering, and they clearly are, and they clearly hate them and they clear. And so we're going to make the decision as we did in Iraq and now, that you'll be better off. And that's the arrogance that I'm talking about. China. China does it a different way. They say, I'm going to influence you through infrastructure or I'm going to flood your markets with cheap goods. Yeah, but it's certainly different than how the west does it.

[Alistair Campbell]

I, I totally agree with that. And, and, and, and I think that is a lesson that Keir Starmer was pointing to when he said we have to learn some of the lessons of these past interventions. And look, I think you're in a. We're in a place in the world right now exacerbated by the character and the personality of the current incumbent occupant of the White House. You mentioned Brexit earlier. I would argue that Brexit was an indication of a country, our country, for whatever reason, deciding to go along with its own decline. Okay. I think your choice of Trump for a second term is an indication of America deciding to go along with its own decline. And the arrogance that you talk about when you hear that vile hexith sort of spraying us with stuff from the Bible and telling us about what to believe and all this stuff, whilst clearly glorifying in the sense of domination and violence of other people.

[Jon Stewart]

It's almost sexual for him. It almost feels as though it's erotic.

[Alistair Campbell]

Wow.

[Jon Stewart]

This.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, I'm, I'm. That is a horrible thought that I'd never had before.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, you gotta, you gotta watch them. You gotta watch it more. There's. There's a reveling in it.

[Alistair Campbell]

There is a reveling, no doubt about it, stunning.

[Jon Stewart]

He came out the other day, no quarter, no mercy, no like, just blatantly saying, like, you know, those things that we came up after World War II to try and prevent the horrors. Yeah, we're getting rid of all that. Yeah, we're just going in.

[Sponsor Voice]

Mike.

[Jon Stewart]

Makes right.

[Alistair Campbell]

Stupid rules of engagement.

[Jon Stewart]

Stupid rules of engagement. When did you ever think of somebody that has some authority over the worst weapons in the entire universe?

[Alistair Campbell]

Never.

[Jon Stewart]

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[Alistair Campbell]

And I, I, we talk. Rory Stewart and I. Do you love sharing the name with the UK's top podcaster?

[Jon Stewart]

I made mine up completely. So, yeah, I do love it. It's a bit. I could have gone with anything. I could have gone with Gervais. I could have done anything

[Alistair Campbell]

for you women. Stuart, well done. But, you know, I, we. We. I quoted yesterday when we were recording this week's PO that a piece in the New York Times last week by a guy called Phil Clay. He said he's a novelist now, but he served in the military and he served in Iraq. And he was saying similar things about the Iraq war that you've just been saying, but he did say, at least I knew what I was doing. The American military involved in this, they do not know what they're doing because every day they get given a different message. One minute is killing Khamenei. The next minute is nukes. The next minute is ballistics. The next minute is bringing peace to the Middle East. And the one that completely did my Head in. Scott Besant being chart being challenged about the rising oil price says it's worth 50 days of temporary price rises for 50 years of peace in the Middle East. The idea that this is bringing peace to the Middle east is nuts.

[Jon Stewart]

And the other thing that I would also say is we start debating sort of the methodology behind how they did it. Like, well, if they had only gone and made a better case or things without really getting to the question of should we be doing these things at all, not whether or not we should do it more forthrightly or we should settle on just one reason, because that's, listen, we all remember Iraq was very well coordinated as far as building a coalition, going to the United Nations. Now it all turned out to be. But at least they respected us enough to go through the process of lying to us, you know, reasonably well. Now we're starting to say, well, why didn't they do it that way? As opposed to. I'm talking about a more fundamental question within the west, which is don't we have to rethink what danger, as you said, is acceptable in, in a world of, of these growing weapons, that containment seems to be the only thing you can reasonably do? It's almost as though we're saying, no, the recipe for war is you start to seed it early that there's a growing danger, then you start to build allies towards what your end goal is. As long as you give Americans a clear distinction of what your three aims are like. Once you get to three aims and you've presented evidence now you've fulfilled your licensing requirements for war and you may do it, aren't we making a mistake by criticizing that part of it rather than the actual bombing part of it?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I do think on this that it's possible to, to criticize every aspect of this.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes. No, I'm not. I'm. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, I don't know what you're saying. But. But I find that one of the things I find so stunning about Trump is the extent to which your media, in particular, but our media does exactly the same, treating him like this is a normal president. Donald Trump has said this. Donald Trump has posted this. Donald Trump's. And we then analyze it and we try to find what we think the thinking behind it might be. And I suspect we're nearly always wrong.

[Jon Stewart]

How would you treat him as a non. Nor. I'm curious as to what that would be, what that would look like.

[Alistair Campbell]

I'll give you an example. I'll give you an Example this week, Robert Mueller dies.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, so Robert Mueller, we know that Trump hates him. Trump puts out a tweet saying, I'm glad he's dead. Okay. With all respect to Robert Mueller, I think that is the story about Robert Mueller's death. But what happens is because we think, well, Trump's just kind of firing one of his mad rants off. We just, we say Robert Mueller has died. The man who investigated Trump over there has died. The normalization of utterly abnormal behavior for a president, any president. Listen, John, there are people that I really don't like in the world and when they die, I won't say anything. Right. What I won't do is say I'm really glad they're dead. Okay? It is utterly abnormal. So what I think we do, when you say what would you do with the.

[Jon Stewart]

It showed growth though, Alistair, because if you saw what he said after Rob Reiner was, was murdered, this is real growth. He's gone from being kind of a man baby to now he's in his angsty teenage years like, I don't care if you're dead, I wish you were dead. Now. He's, he's like a petulant teenager now where he used to be just a giant baby.

[Alistair Campbell]

What was he vis a vis Charlie Kirk when people like me who were saying nothing were being attacked on social media by the MAGA crowd for saying he was a hypocrite, Saying nothing. For not saying that he was a saint.

[Jon Stewart]

He was a hypocrite and a contradictory figure. The point is, we do talk about this. I, I have to tell you, like 24 hour news cycles. But here's how we talk about it. News anchors will bring on a Republican politician and they'll say to that Republican politician and you've, you've had this game played out.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Having been in the press in. And they'll say to that politician, was that appropriate for the President to say that? And then they'll say some version of, I think Scott Bessant even said on the, the weekend shows, well, you have to have some grace for President Trump, knowing what we've put his family through. They're basically calling for empathy and an emotional state that is utterly missing from that entirety.

[Alistair Campbell]

Absolutely.

[Jon Stewart]

Of that movement. My point is though, he's the President. How do you, you have to deal with the reality that we're all facing and I guess the policy should be as we're talking about containment.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jon Stewart]

Even with him.

[Alistair Campbell]

Totally with him.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

Here's a, here's another example though. I. Look, I know he lies so much and he misrepresents. Right. But it seems to me that most of the media has given up even pointing that out. So now I know he chooses his own friends, and he'll do Fox and Friends and he'll phone up his podcast friends, and therefore they don't check him. But even the media. That is not normally completely in his pocket, to my mind, they just don't do enough of saying, excuse me, that is wrong. I'll give you another example. Kaitlan Collins from CNN or any of those reporters, when he suddenly turns on a reporter in one of those press conferences.

[Jon Stewart]

That's right.

[Alistair Campbell]

Have none of them got the balls just to stand up and say, excuse me, you do not talk to our colleagues like that.

[Jon Stewart]

No.

[Alistair Campbell]

And if you don't like what I'm saying, kick us all out.

[Jon Stewart]

In fact, she's on an island in a lot of respects because she's relentless and she does stay with it. The thing that you're doing. She does she. That you're talking about, she will hold them to account, but they don't. Look, look, you know this as well as anybody. Having worked in the press, politicians learn how to use whatever form of communication there is against them. When television first came out and politicians didn't quite understand the medium, it didn't know how to use it. There was. I don't know if you remember the Kennedy Nixon debate. It was a huge. It was the first time it was televised.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And politicians didn't understand the medium. And so Kennedy went on television looking like Kennedy, tanned and rested and buff and dressed. And Nixon was like, makeup. What do I need makeup for? I'm smart as.

[Alistair Campbell]

So the sweat came, Right.

[Jon Stewart]

So he sweated. And if you watched it on television, you said, oh, my God, Kennedy wiped the floor with him. And if you heard it on the radio, you said, Nixon won. Politicians learn how to manipulate the form.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

But they learn.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, but my point is.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

I sense a lot of guys like you, the satire is a different world. The satirists sure can have a field day. But the guys who. And. And put Fox News to ones.

[Jon Stewart]

But we're impotent. I mean, to. To a large extent.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

The frustration on satire is it's an impotent form.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, up to a point. But my point, it's. It's less impotent if the guys who are in the room and on the plane. And I know how it works. They're worried that if they call him out, they don't get more Access and what have you. But look at the credibility of the Pentagon. Now, you can talk about Hexith and all his sort of sexual desires for bombing raids and all that stuff, but the fact is, what those reporters who refused to go by these new rules and walked out, they have helped further to undermine his credibility, no question. Down the track, that becomes a problem for Hexuth. Okay, now, my point is with Trump, and by the way, I think the other politicians. I'll give you an example of this. And I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, so let's say when Trump was over here, he was in Scotland. He was doing something with one of his golf courses. Keir Starmer flies up from London, but Scotland, as I reminded you earlier, is part of the United Kingdom. He is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Donald Trump was behaving like he was the host. So I was pissed off with that for the start. But then the next thing that happened was while this is they bring in the press and he's doing one of his mad rambles, and he starts going off on one at Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, who he doesn't like because he happens to have very brown skin. Okay? So he hates Sadiq Khan and he never misses an opportunity. So he's sitting in Scotland as a guest of our Prime Minister, even though he's treating him like he's the host. And he starts now. If I'd have been Keir Starmer sitting there, I would have just leant over, put my hand on his arm and said, Mr. President, when I go to the United States, I don't attack American politicians, and I don't expect you to do it here. We've got to call this guy out.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, would that have been a moment?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, it would.

[Jon Stewart]

And by the way, I think it would have enhanced Starmer's reputation and actually done him a world of good politically. Not. Not only would have been morally right, but it would have actually been politically advantageous for him.

[Alistair Campbell]

And it might have stopped him doing it again, it might not, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. What I think has to happen. Mark Carney's Davos speech, the principles in that speech are what should be applied now because there's barely a leader in the world apart from Donald Trump, who thinks anything other than what he's done in the last month is a catastrophe. No question economically, geostrategically, politically, the law.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, I think Vladimir Putin would disagree.

[Alistair Campbell]

We can come on to him.

[Jon Stewart]

I think he's quite excited about what Donald Trump has done.

[Alistair Campbell]

We could. Come on, Tim. I should have inserted the words democratically elected.

[Jon Stewart]

There we go.

[Alistair Campbell]

I get that. Right. But they're all having to deal with the fallout.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

From what is essentially a catastrophic misjudgment by a terrible president. Now, I'm not suggesting that Keir Starmer stands up and says this is a catastrophic misjudgment by a terrible president, but I think all of them should get together and say, we are being put in this position because the American administration has decided to completely upend the world order. We therefore have to start to design and devise the world order that follows this. And if the Americans are on.

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, there have been rumblings of that.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, rumblings. Rumblings are fine.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, but.

[Alistair Campbell]

But what? Trump. Trump doesn't rumble. He does the big, bold brushstrokes, and we need a few. Carney's davil speech was a big, bold brushstroke. We need more of them.

[Jon Stewart]

It's really difficult to accomplish that when you're not dictatory, when you're not authoritarian, because they are. Look, you know as well as I do, you know, Europe couldn't even get a certain package to the Ukrainians because one country, Hungary, that's more aligned with Vladimir Putin, had the final say in it. So you're dealing with structural difficulties within democratic systems that make that kind of action much more difficult. The second thing that you're dealing with is the vindictive whims of an impulsive man baby who has the full power and backing of the United States military and economic force, and he wields it punitively. And so you've also. I think he has put you all in a great dilemma through his actions. The thing that I want to sort of get back to is the idea that you can look at Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya as examples of. We weren't being run by an authoritarian man baby. We did go to our allies and make the case we were working through the United nations and collaborating with allies and not dismissing them and diminishing them, and we got the same results.

[Alistair Campbell]

A fair point. A fair point.

[Jon Stewart]

That. That's the thing that I'm. I'm. I'm trying to get, you know, if. If we talk to Tony. I don't know if you talk to Tony Blair anymore.

[Alistair Campbell]

I do. I do.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay. Tony Blair, my guess is, and you can tell me if this is wrong, would be for intervention in Iran or at least would lean towards making the case of the United Kingdom, Great Britain joining early on in a coalition of Our great friend and neighbor, the United States, and taking this military action. Would that be fair?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I have discussed it with him because he.

[Jon Stewart]

All right, well, you know then.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, because. I'll tell you why. Because our newspapers a couple of weeks ago were full of a story that he was at a private meeting where he said something along those lines. So I said.

[Jon Stewart]

He said something along the lines of.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, the papers said that he said something along the lines of, we should be involved in this. Okay, since when? So since when? Since when I have basically said, Tony, what the fuck? And what he. What he says, he said is that because this was a kind of Chatham House thing, he said. He said that, you know, in an ideal world.

[Jon Stewart]

Off the record.

[Alistair Campbell]

Off the record, which, as you know and I know, does not exist, particularly if you're that level. So he was basically saying in an ideal world, Britain should be alongside the United States. And he was saying that Iran is a terrible regime. So he wasn't quite saying what he was saying, but he was saying enough for those headlines to be written, and those headlines were not good for K. Starmer. So I did something I don't normally do on my podcast. I mildly rebuked my former boss. Just a mild rebuke, John.

[Jon Stewart]

Whoa. Now, what does he do in that scenario? Does he. Do you end up. Does the red phone go off and you.

[Alistair Campbell]

The red phone got taken away years ago, Charles.

[Jon Stewart]

Now, if he says, I. I want to do, you know, I think Iran is a terrible thing and maybe we should be joining it. Does he lose his seat on the Board of Peace? Does. Is that what happens?

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, well, that's the question you'd have to put to your president. I don't know.

[Jon Stewart]

When does. When does the Board of Peace meet to discuss what's going on in Iran?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, it has met, hasn't it? I believe it has not to discuss Iran.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, I believe the Board of Peace, it was like Uzbekistan and Tony and a couple of other people. But, yeah, I do wonder, do you have confidence that NATO can exert the kind of pressure on the United States to contain some of our worst impulses now that this president is in charge?

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, look where you.

[Jon Stewart]

No, that's not. That was not optimistic.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay.

[Jon Stewart]

That was all of the air leaving your body.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, where your current president, like several of his predecessors has a point, is that Europe did kind of take American security and the peace dividend for granted. Okay. We slightly inhale the end of history and we're all going to be nice liberal democracies. But the Americans have got. The Americans have got the big stuff, and they're going, America's always going to be the big player in NATO, and we're all part of NATO. Trump, go back to term one. This is why I was so worried about Trump getting term two and being more organized. He was always ambivalent about NATO. I've reached a. You know, NATO exists as a defensive alliance, and through the Cold War, who was. What was NATO's basic enemy? It was the old Soviet Union.

[Jon Stewart]

Sure.

[Alistair Campbell]

What. What is Vladimir Putin done or is he trying to do? He's trying to recreate that sense of the old Soviet Union with. And Russian hegemony. Now, I. I have reached a point of feeling, and as we know, because Carolyn Levitt tells us, you know, feelings are very important because he felt that

[Jon Stewart]

it's in his bones. He'll know it's over when it's in his bones.

[Alistair Campbell]

He felt something, and that would tell him what to do. But, you know, I. I've reached the feeling that Trump is on Putin's side when it comes to Ukraine. Well, if you're on Putin's side, you're not on NATO's side. And the other thing which makes me really worry about NATO is that he continues to talk this nonsense about both Canada and more significantly about Greenland, you know, and insults Danish troops and insults British troops. They kept away from the front line in Afghanistan when, you know, substantial numbers of them died. And so it's hard to. And then you throw in. We. We had a guest on the podcast last week, Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister. I mean, you know, who has seen

[Jon Stewart]

his profile raised dramatically for doing to Trump exactly what you believe Starmer should have done with a hand on the leg. He did it in a sort of a bolder, more pronouncement of, no, we're not getting involved in this.

[Alistair Campbell]

He did it in relation to this. I think Keir Starmer's got to the right position on this, and he's expressed it in the right way. He's done it in a way that has not offended Trump and it shouldn't have.

[Jon Stewart]

Threading the needle.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, exactly. Whereas Sanchez is absolutely out there. And if you listen to the interview, he goes even further in saying that. All sorts of stuff about Trump that Trump would not like to hear.

[Jon Stewart]

But was it accurate? Were the things he was saying accurate?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, I would say so. 100%. 100%. There you go. But here's the other thing about Trump, because I think, look, you know this. You've studied politicians and you've Studied, you know, big characters for a long time in your life. Never underestimate the power of hubris. If you think about some of the things that Trump did in the past, and you think about psychology comes in first term, and the whole narrative around it is he's having to be surrounded by grownups and he gets rid of them and he sacks them left, right and center, and the whole senses of chaos second time around. Project 2025, Stephen Miller. They're much better organized. They know what they're going to do. They're going to, you know, musk with his nonsense with Doge and all that. They're going to come in, it's going to be different. And it is different this time. And what I think he. So he's thinking, right? They told me, all these experts, they told me if I move the Israeli Embassy to Jerusalem, there's going to be. There's going to be fucking mayhem in the Middle East. Didn't happen. If I go into Venezuela and chop Maduro's legs and take him out. And it was, to be fair, you know, if you're looking at purely militarily, as an operation, it was impressive. Okay, you get the guy, you take him out, and then you do a little deal with Delse Rodriguez and things calm down. So everybody said to me, if I take out Maduro, there's going to be absolute chaos in Latin America. Didn't happen. He then thinks, if I turn, he's got Epstein coming at him. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. He wants it out the news. I don't know if that's the motivation, but it's a part of it. I guess he thinks he's going to do the same. Iran. So when he says, my message to the Iranian people is, we do this, you rise up and you take control of your country, he thinks that's going to happen. Then when he sees it, doesn't. He has to have a new narrative. So the narrative changes. And of course, he's got the. The difference between any previous president is he has got a public opinion, a large chunk of it, that is going to stay with him whatever he does. When he said he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and his base would. Would. Would forgive him, I'm afraid it's true.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm afraid it's true. But I also think that the laws of Icarus will always prevail. And to be fair, he has lived a life of very little accountability for what could ostensibly be considered truly awful actions or irresponsible actions, whether it be through bankruptcies or through Personal, let's call them foibles. Yeah, but there's never been, he's never really been held to account. Look, at a certain point you run out, right? Hey man, running a business, not easy. That's all I'm going to say. Not easy. A lot of times hard to find good people and all those kinds of things. And if you've got a business, you're feeling, I don't know, like I could use some more people. Some more people that maybe are, are, are good at this and, and not necessarily bad at this. Well, how do I, how do I figure that out? Well, we got yourselves a solution. You got yourselves upwork. It's a one stop platform. You find, hire and pay expert freelancers. Not your amateur freelancers, not your tenderfoot freelancers, your newbie freelancers experts. So you can find help in web and software development, data analytics, marketing, business. Look, I don't even know how businesses work, so I'm just naming departments. You fill them in however you want to fill them in. But you can do that with upwork. Thousands of growing businesses trust upwork to hire these flexible, high quality freelance talent from one off project, ongoing support. And it's free to sign up, visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That is up W O R k dot com. So Alistair, do you have an idea? If Trump is for Putin, and I don't disagree with that, but I also think it's not necessarily that it's NATO and Putin, it's that the United States and Trump right now favor right wing populist government. If, if the old world order was communism versus democracy or capitalism versus Communism, the new world order in their minds is woke versus unwoke. It's that sense of a conservative, you know, let's face it, Christian governing body, where those things are melded together and so it they are more ideologically aligned with Putin than Macron, they are more ideologically aligned with Orban than they are with Starmer. That the idea that we can lead liberal democracies in any kind of capacity kind of goes out the window when the operating system that they would like to run is more authoritarian and more nativist. And so we're no longer natural allies within that regard.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, well, just this week Netanyahu went to Hungary to back Orban in this upcoming election on April 12th.

[Sponsor Voice]

Really?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. J.D. vance is reported to be heading there. Donald Trump has done a video Backing Orban, one of all the rules of diplomacy you've got.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, JD Vance went to Germany and suggest the AfD and backed the AfD and said how dare you censor. Meanwhile, they don't say a word about Putin. They don't say a word about, you know, whatever censorious or authoritative or any of those kinds of things occur in those countries.

[Alistair Campbell]

Not at all. Not at all. And look, I think you're right and this is why I talked about with the way that the media treat Trump as though he's a normal president.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

But also Trump's allies treat him like he's a normal president. And I think we've got to stop doing that.

[Jon Stewart]

But you're calling for courage.

[Alistair Campbell]

I certainly am.

[Jon Stewart]

You're calling for something that is in. It may be in shorter supply right now than oil, maybe.

[Alistair Campbell]

Let me tell you this, let me

[Jon Stewart]

show you this point. Yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

I was at Davos and I was in the room for the. I only went in the room for two speeches. One was Trump, where I regret to say that my mild heckling didn't catch on with all the people around me. There was no courage in that room. Right. And I was in for Carney's. Now, the thing is, I have it on very good authority that since Carney's Davos speech, Trump has phoned Carney more than Carney has phoned Trump. And I think that that is a response to a bit of courage. It is true that Sanchez, who has really gone for Trump, will probably pay a price. Trump will find a way of making him pay a price. But I think in doing what he's done, I'll tell you one thing he's done. He's made himself a sight more popular in Spain than he was, which is not important when you're the Prime Minister of Spain.

[Jon Stewart]

So he's an interesting cat because. Yeah. Now he goes out and he sort of nationalizes, I guess, 500,000 refugees or immigrants or something, which you would think goes counter to what the general movement in Europe is in. Certainly on the populist right. But let's face facts. The populist right is. It's not a fringe movement by any means.

[Alistair Campbell]

No.

[Jon Stewart]

When it, when it comes to Europe. But yet he stands up to Trump and do those things offset or are they part of the same kind of. No, we're not going to follow. Does it put him in threat to right wing populism in Spain?

[Alistair Campbell]

It may do. Certainly. The right wing populism in Spain, the Vox party campaign pretty heavily on immigration.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

But he's also Showing courage in going out and making the case for immigration. And he does it. He did it in our interview. He basically said there is a moral case and there is an economic case. And I'm making them both right. And I think we need to hear more of that.

[Jon Stewart]

We certainly need to hear more of the economic case. And, you know, there was a study, I think it was, by the Cato Institute here in the United States, which is by no means a liberal organization. Libertarian, you know. Libertarian, right.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And they made the case that economically, this type of, of immigration is actually much more of a net positive than it has been given credit for. That doesn't mean that it'll be politically successful. But very few. Part of the problem we have in the United States is very few people take the time because of the attention deficit of the populace. You know, you said earlier that they normalize Trump and they don't say that he lies. They do say that he lies, but they use a shorthand. What they don't do is show their work. So you very rarely will see. You know, this happened a lot in the election. There was the phrase was the big lie. And the big lie got coined to describe Donald Trump's complaint about the 2020 election that he lost, but said that he won because Rick. So they would talk about this is the big lie. What they didn't do very often is walk through why what he was saying was incorrect. Because our news has taken on the circadian rhythms of social media. It all goes. There's very little room to breathe.

[Alistair Campbell]

But there's also the, the, the, the, you know, the characters who are taking it over are largely politically motivated. I mean, that is ideologues.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, no question.

[Alistair Campbell]

And so.

[Jon Stewart]

No question.

[Alistair Campbell]

So I don't, I don't think you can really say. Does it. Would you really say American as a free, fair media today, you're free to do what you do, but as a whole, does your media do the job that it was doing in the. I can't imagine a Watergate. I mean, he does worse than Watergate ten times a day.

[Jon Stewart]

I think certainly the algorithm and the bifurcation of the media has made it more polarized. And certainly, look, the whole point of Fox News was Roger Ailes worked for Nixon. And Roger Ailes is the one who founded Fox News along with Rupert Murdoch, who, by the way, thank you for him. He's done such good work here in America. We really appreciate it.

[Alistair Campbell]

He's an Australian.

[Jon Stewart]

He's Australian, but he made his bones.

[Alistair Campbell]

He's actually an American now he's an American citizen.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, is he really?

[Alistair Campbell]

Yes, he is. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to own Fox News.

[Jon Stewart]

Good. Good for him.

[Alistair Campbell]

So he's on you. I agree with you. He's been net negative. The net. Net. Net. Net negative, negative, negative. He. Gavin Newsom was on our podcast a few weeks ago and tell me if you agree with this. He said, without Murdoch, there is no Trump.

[Jon Stewart]

I think that's probably correct. I would say without Murdoch, there's probably no George Bush. Without. But. But that being said, I think what. What they did is intentional. They intentionally created those things to buffer their politicians from that sense of accountability because they viewed that accountability as merely left wing posturing and. And left wing virtue signaling and left wing hits. And so now you see that Fox News is not right enough.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

For Trump. That's the thing about Trump is he's insatiable. But let me ask you, you had Newsom on. So here Newsom is obviously, he's one of the few politicians that can compete in an attention economy in the way that Trump does. He's created this sort of trolling Persona.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

What was your sense of him? The way that I process him is like, man, that dude is thirsty. And it's hard for me to move past that in some respects. What was your thought process with him?

[Alistair Campbell]

What does that mean?

[Jon Stewart]

Thirsty? Yeah, he wants it. He wants it in a way that is more ambition than conviction. Conviction, okay. That it's less principle and more politics.

[Alistair Campbell]

I didn't get that impression.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, great. There you go.

[Alistair Campbell]

Two reasons. Two reasons.

[Jon Stewart]

But then again, you worked for Blair, so I'm going to take it all with a grain of salt.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, hold on. Tony Blair is a man of conviction. Ambition and conviction. He's still got both.

[Jon Stewart]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Alistair Campbell]

And I will defend him to my grave for Northern Ireland peace process alone.

[Jon Stewart]

All right, fair enough.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, I liked Gavin Newsom a lot because I'd kind of only seen the kind of, you know, the hair and the teeth and the suits and. And what have you.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

And he looks like a kind of pretty identical American politician, right?

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

But I found him to be very charming, very clever, and he's got courage about courage. He's got courage. He calls things out. He's really going for this. The one thing that he said that I. He said at the end, I said, are you definitely going to go for it? And he said, the only people who got a vote are my wife and my children. And some of them like it. Some. Some of them are Keen. Some of them are not. And I thought he's going. I mean, I thought, I, I thought he's definitely going for it.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

I got the sense that his view of the California thing is that it's a big bonus while he's getting the nomination, and then it becomes a bit of a handicap. He's got to work out ways of dealing with that.

[Jon Stewart]

I think that's right.

[Alistair Campbell]

But I, I found him pretty compelling and pretty tough. I thought he was tough. I liked him.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay, well, fair enough then. But thank you for, for being candid about those various things. I want to revisit just for a moment. We sort of talked about NATO's role in all this and how Trump really is ideologically aligned more with these strongmen and certainly seems to prefer them to anything else that he does. But I want to also ask during your time in office what your experience was with the Middle east powers, because Netanyahu has. So I think for, for my money, I believe he is not interested in diplomatic solutions to almost anything and that he has found his lane in violence and he can all he wants about, well, we were attacked and, and understood. And I'm not diminishing that. But you can't. There's a difference between capability and ambition. And what he's trying to do is bomb the ambition out of people. He's trying to bomb their will away. And I don't think that's something you can do. No, that, that the more people are resilient and, and they will, they will fight, that you may be able to diminish their capability, but in doing so, their ambition becomes even more resolute.

[Alistair Campbell]

I mean, again, going back to the Sanchez interview, because, you know, Spain and Ireland are the two countries in Europe that are very, very pro Palestinian and were the first to recognize Palestine state, etc, and he said, I said to him, do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal? And he said, well, that is not, I'm not a judge. But he said Israel is more isolated than it has ever been. Now, I don't think as long Netanyahu's thinking, I think as long as he's got Trump for now, he thinks he's fine. What I found terrifying about recent events is that what is happening in the moment in Lebanon is barely on the agenda. The settler violence in the west bank at the moment is off the scale. Exactly, but it's barely on the agenda.

[Jon Stewart]

By the way, what are the settlers even do it. How can you justify, if, if your goal is just the security of your state and, and only why would you ever be annexing other territory, which obviously is going to take a lot more money and resources to be able to defend? And all it does is bisect land that is clearly not yours.

[Alistair Campbell]

But that is their strategy to make it theirs.

[Jon Stewart]

But that, but, but. Right, so that's my point, totally is, how can you say I'm looking for an equitable and just solution because when your actual goal is to just eliminate the problem.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

For yourselves.

[Alistair Campbell]

There was a, there was a briefing. I read quite a lot of the Israeli press, and there was a briefing in one of the papers the other day where they literally said that the military strategy that they were going to be pursuing in targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon was the one that they used in Rafah. Now, Rafa was basically razed to the ground.

[Jon Stewart]

It was flat, completely flattened.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. So I, I, and the thing is that he can. Look, we now do seem to be living in an era of impunity. We have to hope that when all this is through that there will not be impunity.

[Jon Stewart]

But it's coming from the supposedly elevated countries of the world, the United States and Israel, the ones that live with moral purpose. And yet, and yet here we are. And by the way, where is Saudi Arabia in, in all of this? Where is, you know, we've sent them more weaponry than almost anybody else. What is, is, is what is their role in this? What is their role in defending the Palestinians? What, what is anybody's role in this? I, I, I'm so confused by, you

[Alistair Campbell]

know, you're not alone. I mean, we're all confused. And, and I think that, you see, I, what Trump's support, and I don't want to put it all on Trump, but a lot of it is on Trump. But what his supporters continue to say is, ah, the trouble with you guys is you don't understand. He's all about strategic chaos and strategic ambiguity. But you just get the feeling he's literally making up as he goes along day by day. And that's why, that's why I do worry. I was at an event meeting recently with some of the kind of different European intelligence people, and one of the one, and one of them said, you know, do you think this might be leading us into the Third World War? And another one said, well, what if we're already in it? And what the thing that really worries me is that the level of hubris, the ego alongside. You see, I think you're right about Netanyahu. Netanyahu, he wants to survive politically. Do you know, by the way he was the first Israeli prime minister we met back in 1997. He was there then as prime minister. So this is a guy who knows how to survive. He wants to survive right now based on the approach he's taking in Iran, because you've got to understand, it's much more popular in Israel than it is here, you know, in the UK or in the, on the US he thinks this might be the way to winning the next general election. He's, he's got Trump completely. And then all the Gulf powers there. Saudi is obviously a very, very interesting question. What's happening with their relationship with the other Gulf powers?

[Jon Stewart]

Well, it just came out today. They said Mohammed bin Salman has been calling President Trump and urging him to finish the job, that this is a unique opportunity to reshape the dynamic of the Middle East. I mean, obviously, there's the Sunni, Shia rift and as Iran, and this is in no way excusing the mullahs and the actions that they've taken on their own people and through Hezbollah and Hamas and all those other bad actors. But if Mohammed bin Salman is calling up Donald Trump and saying, finish the job, well, you've just bought $15 billion of the highest tech weaponry any country can possibly possess. What are you doing? And as far as the Palestinians, you know, I think they've spent more money on sport. You know, they gave more money to Phil Mickelson than they did to the Palestinians. Like, I don't, I don't understand

[Alistair Campbell]

any

[Jon Stewart]

of the dynamics over there or what we're hoping to achieve.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, that. And that is the, that is the problem that we're all wrestling with right now. And, and the thing that I find terrifying is that Trump is so powerful,

[Jon Stewart]

but that power comes from the stability, and he's destroying the very foundation that gives him his power.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right. But these countries that have invested hundreds of millions in projecting themselves as safe, as stable, and that safety and stability has been based on the fact that they've developed this relationship with the United States, and the United States has now destroyed it. And meanwhile, they're all looking at each other and thinking, you know, Trump will now be trying to divide and rule. The Israelis will be trying to divide and rule. Oh, we're not going to hit that one as hard as we're hitting that one. You know, they're not as bad. And so, look, it is absolutely terrifying. And the answer to the question, I was tended to agree with the guy who said, well, maybe we are already in third World War, and that is why this is all about this is where values have to be reimposed. And I think what's happened since Trump's second term began is the eradication of any sense of there being values at the heart of this. He doesn't talk about, you know, he talked about the people rising up. He never talks about democracy. He's not interested. At least George Bush used to talk about, let's try and create a stable democracy in Iraq.

[Jon Stewart]

Is democracy no longer an operating system? You know, we used to say, like, well, we're going to bring democracy. And that sort of was coupled with a kind of prosperity and stability and a rule of law and all those other things that created the power of the United States that, you know, we so randomly squander at so many different times. Do you think that democracy still has the credibility as an operating system, or has it. Has it so been tainted by the mistakes that were made in Iraq or the mistakes that were made in immigration policy, or the inability to solve some of the bureaucratic issues that occur within, you know, the eu. Brexit is an example of a rebuke of that system.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

You know, do we need to also shore up the results that democracy can deliver for their populations?

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, the one that you didn't put in there, which I think is the biggest of the lot, is the fact that we've. We've had a generation growing up with no guarantee whatsoever that they're going to be better off than their parents. Generation.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

I think that is what's driving a lot of what's in Europe. I think that, look, there are various things. There's. There's.

[Jon Stewart]

I think if you go back, this has gotten dark. Alistair, we're gonna have to somehow find a way to pull out of this. But we're getting dark here.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, let me just give. Let's do this.

[Jon Stewart]

Let's do this, Mr. Sunshine.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, God. Yeah. Well, should I get my bagpipes out and play your tune?

[Jon Stewart]

Do you like nature? Do you. Is that. Is that an improper question? Do you like nature? Or are you more of a concrete guy or gal? Are you one of those people that you see trees and flowers and you're like, oh, no, get me a wall. I'm most comfortable staring at a wall. Well, that is not. That is not where it's at, people. This is about greenery. This is about green space. This is about being as one with nature. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why. Fast growing trees. Fast growing trees. That's the Name of the company. That's not just a description of something in your backyard. That's the name of a company. They're America's largest and most trusted online nursery. Thousands of trees and plants. Two million happy customers. That's not easy to do. People are grumpy. Get that many happy customers. You're delivering some nice trees and every plant's backed by their alive and thrive guarantee. It promises you that the plants arrive happy and healthy and ready to thrive. Right now, they got great deals on planting essentials. Up to half off select plants and listeners to our show get 20% off their first purchase. When using the code TWS at checkout, it's an additional 20 off better plants and better growing at fast growing trees.com using the code TWS at checkout. Fast growing trees.com code TW S. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use TW S to save today. Offer is valid for limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.

[Alistair Campbell]

So if you go back, my friend Mr. Scaramucci has written a new book which is coming out later this year and he talks about these, the three big mistakes that he think have driven, driven us to where we are. Okay, the first is Seattle, where globalization China was brought in and lots of trade unionists and lots of working class people said, no, no, no, this is a mistake. And the globalizers and I would include myself in that were basically, no, no, you've got to bring China in and this is the way to do it.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

Then the second, you're talking about when

[Jon Stewart]

they invited China into the wto.

[Alistair Campbell]

Into the wto, yeah. Right, yeah. And so the, the, the economic cons and social consequences of that. The second one he, he cites is the Iraq war without putting up taxes, in other words, saying we can have this massive war, but don't worry, you won't have to pay for it. And then the third one is bailing out the banks so that he's putting

[Jon Stewart]

those in the 2008 financial crisis.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right, the crash. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm going to add, I'm going to add Covid to that. I'm going to add what people consider to be the government's arrogance during the COVID crisis.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay, okay. Well, all of these things, and you're right, by the way, but the, the, and you'll go back to the question you asked is, is democracy up to dealing with this? The problem is that China less so Russia because Russia's, you know, separate case. But China is definitely looking at our democratic systems and saying they're your problem. They're your problem. You can't, you can't do stuff like we do stuff. I saw a Chinese diplomat not long ago and I was going on about, yeah, well, in the end we're all going to, you know, do this, that and the other, and people will still believe in democratic values and what have you. And we were talking about infrastructure and he said, he said to me, I think he knew the answer, he said, because I think he'd heard me say this somewhere on the media, he said, when was the first discussion that you had about building a third Runway at Heathrow Airport? And the answer was 1998. Wow. And we're still talking about it. Wow. And he was saying, I've lost count of how many airports we've built since then. So they're much more open about saying, your problem is your system. Democracy is not working. Putin how. Why does Putin have a certain following amongst the kind of hard. Right. Afd, Farage and these guys? What they like to say is, well, say what you like about him, but he gets things done. Right. What he gets done is leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

[Jon Stewart]

See, it's so interesting that, because I actually think you've got a much better case to make with Xi and China in that regard. And they certainly have their state run capitalism and however they, they want to do it than you do with Putin, because Putin actually doesn't get failed things done and makes incredible and is unbelievably kleptocratic and corrupt and what a terrible example. And I would say they would never align themselves with the authoritarian nature of China, but they would with Putin. And the reason is they view him as a defender of what they call Western civilization. Not the Western civilization that you and I define as the enlightenment values that create the foundation of democratic societies, but Western civilization along the lines of racial and religious lines. Yeah, that's actually why they align there. And also certainly can't point to results.

[Alistair Campbell]

And also views on gays and views on abortion and views on women.

[Jon Stewart]

Exactly.

[Alistair Campbell]

The whole manosphere thing is wrapped up in this MAGA stuff. So. No, listen, Putin and Trump, I mean, look, I know there's the whole theory about what has Putin got on Trump

[Jon Stewart]

and why I don't think he's got anything to be.

[Alistair Campbell]

Well, I think what he, I think what he, what he has on. What he has on him is jealousy. I think that Trump wants to be rich, he wants to be as powerful and he wants to be authoritarian within his own country.

[Jon Stewart]

You know what's incredible. 15 minutes before Donald Trump announced that he wasn't going to be bombing Iran's energy infrastructure, after all, the stock market insider traders.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Made millions. And that's where we are.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

That's what. So in some respects, we are turning into just this explicit.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Kleptocracy.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. But why is that not on the news every night? Why is the media so quiet and so scared?

[Jon Stewart]

I, I think it's, it's on there. I think it's a harder, you know, look, we have enough trouble, as you said, from the 2008 financial crisis, insider trading, poly market, calcium. I think they're overwhelmed. And unfortunately, rather than sort of a more strategic news day, what you find in our news day is a redundancy. It's every hour after hour is the same rhythm of stories. So it's, we're going to go down to the airports and see the TSA line and then we're going to go. So they don't have an opportunity to delve into the types of analysis. They leave that for podcasts, like your podcast and Rory Stewart's.

[Alistair Campbell]

But what about, what about documentary makers,

[Jon Stewart]

filmmakers and I just got a note from here. And news organizations now partner with these prediction markets, so they're also corporate media and they're also invested in profit and they're also consolidating so that pretty soon we're all going to be working for the same one individual. But the point is they don't. It's not that they don't have the resources, it's that they don't apportion them in a way that strategically fights the corruption that you're talking about.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, well, it is a fight that has to be had because, and I mean, it's happening before our eyes. He doesn't even hide it

[Jon Stewart]

all. The scary point to me is, you know, you could say, you know, Great Britain has a much more responsible media, and yet ultimately your country ends up making the same stupid decisions we do. So you begin to wonder, well, what is the, you know, what is the solution? Let me end on this, because hopefully it's, it's a more hopeful.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

You know, Alistair, in, in your experience and looking around, where do you see green shoots of a new, more robust defender of liberal democracy and the power that it should hold and the rule of law that can again, create this kind of stability and prosperity? Where are the green shoots in your mind? Don't pause like that. Don't pause.

[Alistair Campbell]

No, no, no. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm I was gonna, I was gonna say the first, the first obvious name that comes to mind is Mark Carney. I think Mark Carney in Canada is doing a pretty good job. I think you. Our Attorney general guy called Richard Hermer, who's very close to Keir Starmer, he's made a speech this week, making a speech this week, which is very much, this is the time now to fight for human rights, fight for international law. Course they're under threat as never before. Just had a great guy in Australia, just won a landslide in the South Australia election. Guy called Peter Malinowskis, he's a Labor candidate. He's absolutely wiped out the opposition pretty much. I think that those results I mentioned in France, in Italy, I think I could be wrong. But if the election is free and fair in Hungary, Orban will lose.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

There is a, there is a fight back. And I'll tell you where I get hope. I wrote, the last two books I wrote were kids books about politics and I now go into loads of schools and it's true that you'd get some teenagers who are totally locked up in the manosphere and all that stuff, but my sense of the younger generation is that they get how bad this is and they know that it's going to be on them to, to get us out of it. So I'm still broadly positive. I think the other thing I would say is it's very hard not to allow, if you're on the progressive side of politics, not to allow Trump to do your head in every day.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay, understood.

[Alistair Campbell]

Right. It's really hard not to do it, but it's important to try and to go out and find the people and find the arguments I see in London every day. The MAGA crowd, they've got this obsession with London because of Sadiq Khan.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

There's a whole industry developed saying that

[Jon Stewart]

although now, you know, Zoran Mamdani has taken a little bit of the heat off of. A little bit. A little bit, yeah.

[Alistair Campbell]

Okay. But. But there's a whole kind of industry.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Alistair Campbell]

Across social media and across parts of the right wing media in the States. Basically saying, I literally have friends phone up saying, is it safe to come to London? Right. Because they see all this shit.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Alistair Campbell]

When you do come to London, you see probably still the greatest city in the world.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey, hey, hey. What?

[Alistair Campbell]

Come on, when are you moving here, by the way? It's obviously got to move. You gotta move here.

[Jon Stewart]

Don't do New York City dirty. Come on, let's, let's just.

[Alistair Campbell]

Listen, I know it's.

[Jon Stewart]

Listen, it's a beautiful city. I happen to love London very much.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah. But the point is, what. What is it within the MAGA crowd, other than the skin color of our mayor, that has led them to this relentless. This goes back to your point about them no longer being our allies.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, it's incentivized monetarily as well. You have to. Have to understand for sure, for sure.

[Alistair Campbell]

But you know, when you have an American national security strategy that talks about European civilizational erasure. Right. I would argue. I live in, I go to. I travel around the European countries a lot. Let me let you in a secret, John. It's nicer than the United States of America.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey, hey, hey.

[Alistair Campbell]

Oh, yeah. Better culture, better scenery, better everything. Just. We're just. We're just better off here.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, that's. We.

[Alistair Campbell]

And Britain would be better off if we were still.

[Jon Stewart]

Then what. What you're saying is, is Europe shall lead us out of the wilderness, that they have learned their lesson through internecine fighting, and that is all over and they will lead the democratic liberal establishment out of the wilderness. A reaffirmation of the Magna Carta and the Enlightenment values. And, and, and we shall do it there. Last question. Is the antidote to authoritarianism? Morality or competence?

[Alistair Campbell]

You gotta have both. But I would say it's the. The values bit is the big.

[Jon Stewart]

Is the big part of the Foundation

[Alistair Campbell]

100 is, you know, what sort of people are we? What sort of countries do we want to be? And I think that is what has been. That's what Trump is driving out. You talked about Netanyahu trying to bomb the will out of people. What Trump does every day with his kind of genius level crazy communication, he's trying to drive the. He's trying to drive the good out of us. He's trying to drive the morals out of us. He's trying to basically say, you know, let's all be as bad as each other.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Let's all be realistic about just how terrible we all are.

[Alistair Campbell]

Yeah, exactly. It's not a very Christian message, is it?

[Jon Stewart]

It doesn't appear to be. Although that's not my jurisdiction, so I wouldn't.

[Alistair Campbell]

Nor mine. Nor mine.

[Jon Stewart]

But thank you so much for being with us.

[Alistair Campbell]

It's a pleasure.

[Jon Stewart]

Fascinating as always. Alistair Campbell, co host of the Rest Is Politics podcast. And obviously a vast career as an author and stuff. Communicator and all those other incredible things. Alistair, please give my best to Rory and I hope to see you guys soon over there. And in that beautiful city of Yours.

[Alistair Campbell]

See you soon.

[Jon Stewart]

All right. Bye, sir. Man, that got dark.

[Lauren Walker]

They all do.

[Jon Stewart]

I will say this, though. I think if anyone was going to narrate the end of the world, it should be a British person.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

100%.

[Gillian Speer]

Ease you into it a bit more.

[Lauren Walker]

I think my favorite moment was you defining the word thirsty for him.

[Gillian Speer]

Yeah, definitely mine as well.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

I was gonna bring this up.

[Jon Stewart]

Did he not know thirsty? Yeah, he did. He said, like, what do you mean by that?

[Lauren Walker]

Probably not in the colloquial sense. I imagine he knows, like, the feeling of having thirst.

[Jon Stewart]

That's right. He probably thinking to himself, like, I am a bit parched. It is. It is nearing tea time.

[Gillian Speer]

I did like you trying to get more information for us about the Board of Peace.

[Jon Stewart]

Nothing he gave.

[Gillian Speer]

Nothing he gave.

[Jon Stewart]

I almost seemed as he was unaware of Tony Blair's role.

[Gillian Speer]

Yeah, we moved past that pretty quickly.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. No, we move past that. And I love the whole, you know, it was something that we never quite reconciled on this, which was, you know, he kept saying, Trump is doing this the wrong way. And I kept trying to get him back to right, but we supposedly did Iraq the right way. But when are we going to start thinking that maybe we shouldn't be doing any of this shit at all?

[Gillian Speer]

Yeah, we're kind of still hung up on the lies portion. I think of it, the news media, us, the reasons for why it's happening, all these things. We're still stuck just on that beginning part, but I guess because the lies are so abundant and quick that there's not too much room to move on.

[Jon Stewart]

And I also think, you know, look, hindsight is obviously, you know, and to say. And, you know, he seemed to be pretty clear about, like, look, we believed what we were saying there. Maybe that's true for what was going on there. I don't believe that's necessarily true for America. I don't. I do think there were some real believers in that neocon movement, but I think a lot of them knew they were manipulating things cynically just to get what they wanted.

[Lauren Walker]

100 out of that.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah. Thank you, Jillian.

[Lauren Walker]

Yeah, I think we've all come to terms with that.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

We've all accepted it.

[Gillian Speer]

What they wanted were worthy goals for them.

[Jon Stewart]

That's right. We've. We've all accepted those sorts of things. Did you. Are you familiar with this Spanish Sanchez? We should. We should reach out.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

We will.

[Gillian Speer]

Yeah.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Could do it. Sounds exciting.

[Jon Stewart]

Guy's got some balls. He literally was like, you're not using our shit. I'm not kidding.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

No, I love it.

[Jon Stewart]

This thing's, this is stupid.

[Gillian Speer]

It's impressive because, yeah, not too many leaders are willing to be so open about their dislike of what's happening. As he was describing Starmer, you know, threading a needle with what he says and does. It's nice to see some authenticity.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Lauren Walker]

It was interesting what he said about Carney too, which is that, like, I mean, whether or not it's true that, like, Trump has been calling him more than he's been calling Trump since he showed a little bit of courage and it's like, I don't know, it's kind of similar to what you said about Caitlin Collins once, which is that maybe he kind of has respect for people that push back a bit.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Mom. Donnie.

[Jon Stewart]

Right, Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Those are three very good examples. And I do think that, that there is some of that. And I can believe it because Donald Trump is, if Nothing else, a 12 year old with a phone. Like, he's just, he's on, he's, he's on with everybody but Brittany. What, what, what do the kids want to know this week as we move on?

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yes. Alrighty. John. With one of the most consequential midterm elections in US history coming up, maybe. What, okay, does anyone really want Schumer or Jeffries as their starting quarterback?

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, I don't. First of all, the idea that you would even consider them quarterbacks is like, I, I put them maybe on the o line.

[Lauren Walker]

Kickers.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, maybe a, maybe a Hunter special teams going through there. I mean, look, I, I, I don't understand the idea of Schumer to begin with, his passivity in the face of these really kind of existential crises that occur is, is, is beyond me. And the, and even the subtle adjustments that he makes given the frustration of the Democratic constituency writ large is, I'll curse more like even that is all show and not. And it's, it's frustrating incredibly.

[Gillian Speer]

They're so, yeah, removed from, I think, the day to day that just cursing seems like it will hit our hearts.

[Jon Stewart]

And we're, we're fucking. Oh, we're not. We're fucking fighting back. We're gonna fucking. These.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Have to be.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

That's pretty good.

[Jon Stewart]

Thank you.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Why doesn't he step down?

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, my Lord. Why doesn't he cede power? They don't, these guys don't ever seed power. They run. Look, it was remarkable when Dick Durbin at 82 was like, I don't think I'm gonna run again. And you're like, yeah, of course not.

[Lauren Walker]

Selflessness. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

82 years old. Stop.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

But isn't there a way for us to, like, I just get frustrated because, like, isn't there a way for us to hold them accountable and make that happen some way somehow?

[Gillian Speer]

Like voting?

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, it's. It's such an internal. You know, the internal politics of Washington insiders is something that is slightly impervious, unfortunately, to the voters. But the one thing I will say that the Democratic Party could do is their system rewards only seniority. And so if you want to get anywhere and you want to get any kinds of plum assignments and all that, you just. They only reward longevity. At least the Republicans don't even do that. They give them. I don't know if it's two terms or three terms on certain committees, but they don't allow them to just ensconce themselves in these offices until Moss starts to grow up their legs, or should I say Moss. But I think the performance of these leaders has been so apparently missing in action that I'd be surprised that whatever new group. But maybe the. Their. You know, their other senators and representatives feel beholden to them. I really.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yeah.

[Lauren Walker]

There was reporting, I think, over the weekend that there's like a signal chat, but like, Chris Murphy, Elizabeth Warren, and maybe a few others are in where they're talking shit.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Walker]

So they're trying to. They're plotting against Schumer.

[Gillian Speer]

So they're like, you know what's great? Let's get a signal chat. That always goes well, right?

[Jon Stewart]

Is that. Who would ever find out about that? It just. It blows my mind that that's the like. Because that is something that you would see in, like, a high school dramedy that's like. There's a chat and some of the teachers and students are on it. Like, you just imagine it's. It. It feels as. As what kind of Alistair was talking earlier. Like, it feels so lacking in courage.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna set up a little social media chat for us, and we're gonna talk about all the things we would do if we had the balls to do it publicly.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

It's fucked up. Brittany, what else we got? When we're talking about. All right, where else we're going here?

[Brittany Medvedvic]

If you were a ghost, what.

[Jon Stewart]

Wait, what have they heard?

[Brittany Medvedvic]

What would be your go to casual haunt?

[Jon Stewart]

Well, first of all, I am slowly becoming one. As I become more translucent through hair color and lack of pallor, I would haunt old music clubs that still allow smoke The. My fondest sensory memories are from bartending in old, like, punk clubs where the heady aroma of cigarette smoke, stale beer and violent tendencies. Feel that, like, that. I love that aura. And I think I would probably. That's where I would end up. I don't know. Where would you guys end at Gillian, who would you haunt? Would you haunt?

[Lauren Walker]

Yeah, I'd be like, courtside, Madison Square Garden.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, so you. So you wouldn't actually be haunting?

[Lauren Walker]

I'm using it for the seats.

[Gillian Speer]

You guys are haunting for good.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

I know this is very, like, positive. I have a list of situationships that I'm going to go and torture. Just.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, Brittany, you're going full vindictive. So you're going kind of. You're more poltergeist.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yes, I'm going to taunt the shit out of people.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay.

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

I was just thinking more in terms of, like, what kind of atmosphere would I like to exist in as opposed to, like, who could I fuck with?

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Yeah, I'm getting payback this time.

[Jon Stewart]

Lawrence seems also in the payback mode.

[Gillian Speer]

I'm just. We are in a crazy moment and we get this question and all I'm thinking is like, how do I mess with everyone who's messing with, you know, our sanity right now?

[Jon Stewart]

But that's actually good. So this is interesting. I went. I went bar. Brittany went Personal Vendetta. Gillian just wants to see good basketball. And Lauren went Halls of Power. So your. Your haunting could have some real efficacy and an improvement.

[Gillian Speer]

Or just make me smile, you know, personal thing.

[Lauren Walker]

And it's not always good basketball. Sometimes it's just basketball. Yeah, it's a good point.

[Jon Stewart]

Depending on what year it is. That's a good point. How do they keep in touch with us?

[Brittany Medvedvic]

Twitter. We are weekly showpod. Instagram threads. TikTok, blue sky. We are weekly show podcasts. And you can, like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, the weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[Jon Stewart]

And you should. What's stopping you? Haunt us, for God's sakes. As always, thank you guys very much. Really enjoyed that conversation. Lead producer Lauren Walker. Producer Brittany Medvedvic. Producer Gillian Speer. Video editor and engineer Rob Votola. Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, who were doing Yeoman's work today. We were. We were working intercontinentally across the seas and they were making it work as Alistair's camera kept trying to fly out the window. They had to. They had to make adjustments as the whole thing was going on. And our executive producers, as always, Chris McShane, Katie Gray, thanks so much guys, and we'll see you guys next time. The weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bustboy Productions.

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[Alistair Campbell]

Paramount podcasts.