Iran, Beyond the Headlines with Maziar Bahari

Summary

Summary of "Iran, Beyond the Headlines with Maziar Bahari"

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart
Episode: Iran, Beyond the Headlines with Maziar Bahari
Release Date: June 26, 2025

---

Introduction

In this enlightening episode, Jon Stewart engages in a profound conversation with Maziar Bahari, an esteemed journalist, author, and filmmaker known for his resilience and dedication to shedding light on Iran's intricate socio-political landscape. The discussion delves deep into the current state of Iran, exploring its governmental dynamics, societal aspirations, and the broader regional implications.

---

Maziar Bahari: A Voice from Iran

Maziar Bahari, renowned for his book "Then They Came for Me" and the film "Rosewater," has been a steadfast advocate for freedom of expression and a critical observer of Iran's internal struggles. Stewart highlights Bahari's extensive experience, noting:

Jon Stewart [09:00]: "A friend of mine, Maziar Bahari, was a journalist and was imprisoned in Iran... he is such an interesting and has such an encyclopedic and brilliant knowledge of all that has happened in that country."

---

Current Turmoil and Government Crackdown

The conversation begins with the backdrop of escalating tensions involving Iran's nuclear program and the resulting international confrontations. Bahari provides a nuanced perspective on the Iranian government's recent actions:

Maziar Bahari [07:19]: "It's a very, very sad and tragic moment for many Iranians... they've been forcing people to confess against themselves."

He elaborates on the oppressive measures taken by the regime, including executions for espionage and assassination, highlighting the government's diminishing grip despite its attempts to maintain authority through fear and repression.

---

Information Warfare and Censorship

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Iran's stringent information control and the challenges faced by citizen journalists. Bahari explains the efforts to bypass government censorship:

Maziar Bahari [20:22]: "Iranians... use VPNs and filter busters... there are satellite channels that are beamed into Iran... we are using WhatsApp... people can get the information as much as they want."

Despite these measures, the Iranian government continues to suppress dissenting voices, further isolating the populace from unbiased information.

---

Corruption and the Revolutionary Guards

Bahari critically examines the pervasive corruption within the Iranian government and the influential role of the Revolutionary Guards (IRGC):

Maziar Bahari [12:12]: "The Islamic Republic of Iran is Islamic Republic of Corruption... they are not really interested."

He draws parallels between the IRGC's entanglement in various sectors—from education to industry—and the resulting systemic corruption that hampers meaningful governance and societal progress.

---

Nuclear Ambitions and Regional Dynamics

The conversation shifts to Iran's long-standing pursuit of nuclear capabilities as a means to assert regional dominance and secure its power:

Maziar Bahari [48:07]: "They have the nuclear program... they have been trying to do that since the late 1980s."

Bahari discusses the historical context of Iran's nuclear endeavors, the Shah's initial interests, and the subsequent revivals under the current regime, emphasizing the destructive implications for regional stability.

---

Impact of Sanctions and International Relations

Sanctions imposed by Western nations have severely impacted Iran's economy and societal welfare. Bahari articulates the complex interplay between sanctions and internal governmental dependencies:

Maziar Bahari [64:58]: "The problem is multi-layered... the Revolutionary Guards is like an octopus with tentacles everywhere."

He underscores how sanctions inadvertently fuel corruption by targeting the IRGC's economic ventures, further entrenching the regime's power and diminishing avenues for reform.

---

Civil Society and the Quest for Normalcy

Despite oppressive circumstances, Iranian civil society remains resilient and strives for a semblance of normal life. Bahari highlights the aspirations of ordinary Iranians:

Maziar Bahari [80:44]: "They just want to have a normal life... I want to go out, I want to buy a piece of bread."

This yearning for everyday freedoms contrasts sharply with the government's authoritarian grip, illustrating the societal divide and the populace's desire for stability over ideological struggles.

---

Hope for the Future

Concluding on a hopeful note, Bahari expresses optimism about Iran's long-term prospects, driven by the younger generation's resilience and desire for change:

Maziar Bahari [70:59]: "The majority of Iranians... want security, they want peace... and have a sense of future."

He envisions a future where Iran can transcend its tumultuous history, fostering a society that prioritizes the well-being and aspirations of its people over entrenched political ravings.

---

Notable Quotes

• Jon Stewart [00:52]: "If you're a smart person that thinks anybody that might possibly look into whether or not it was actually obliterated is a scumbag."

• Maziar Bahari [15:57]: "At incompetence. At being evil."

• Maziar Bahari [29:16]: "A lot of them. So in like, 1985... they are getting paid by the Revolutionary Guards and supported."

• Jon Stewart [84:25]: "What you want is a boat. You need to... have a boat."

• Maziar Bahari [76:07]: "It's also available in English... We are also on Substack."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart offers a comprehensive and penetrating analysis of Iran's current political climate, societal dynamics, and the intricate web of internal and external pressures shaping its future. Through Maziar Bahari's firsthand insights and experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the human struggles behind the headlines, reinforcing the importance of nuanced perspectives in comprehending complex geopolitical issues.

---

Listen to the full episode here.

Transcript

[Jon Stewart]

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Make visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply. Hi, welcome to IKEA.

[Maziar Bahari]

This is my college campus, correct, But.

[Jon Stewart]

I see you're on ikea.com ordering some college items. My daughter's room is pretty bare.

[Unknown Speaker]

We need a lamp, some comfy pillows, her favorite stuffy dad with pickup options. We've got what you need to conveniently.

[Jon Stewart]

Order Ikea literally anywhere. Sweet.

[Maziar Bahari]

More time for gaming and studying.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wait, where are you going now?

[Jon Stewart]

Got to show the ultimate Frisbee team how easy it is to order from Ikea. Get Ikea whenever, wherever, however you want. Choose from thousands of pickup locations, affordable delivery options, and more. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to the weekly show podcast. My name is Jon Stewart, and we are currently not at war. It's been hours. I think it means Wednesday. It's Wednesday, June 25th. This will probably come out Thursday. Right now, we are not at war, and Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon. By tomorrow, maybe the nuclear weapon, and we're back at war. And we either completely obliterated their nuclear program or set it back 36 hours. Boy, this has just been everything that is so difficult about this administration just on display in the moment. Just the even actions that it might take that can be successful are fraught with his fragility at all times. We obliterated their nuclear program. Well, the early intelligence says, oh, that's. But that's. Scumbags reported that and people that hate the pilots, and you just think, hey, man, if it's real and that and, and, and all the things that you said you had accomplished had been accomplished, then it shouldn't be that hard to not be so defensive and angry all the time. And just. It is such an amazing moment when you see a guy who's the commander in chief of the United States and the President of the United States in a situation room with, like, Trump was right about everything. Like, how many. How many of history's great leaders had their own merch. We're doing, we're having in the moment of triumph, in the moment, you know, it's Roosevelt at Yalta with Churchill and Stalin, you know, wearing a nice, no Fear. Fear itself. He had fear Itself on the T shirt available on Roosevelt's website. And just the shallowness sometimes of their, you know, J.D. vance. People are saying, you know, we're concerned about intervention in the Middle east and how these things can have unforeseen consequences and instability throughout. And J.D. vance says, yes, no, we understand that that's something the American people are afraid of. But, you know, the American people have never had a smart person before. Now we have a smart person. A smart person. And because we have a smart person, you will not have unforeseen consequences. A smart person that thinks anybody that might possibly look into whether or not it was actually obliterated is a scumbag. Press secretary Carolyn Levitt comes out and she. They ask her, was it obliterated? And she says, everybody knows what happens when you drop bunk. Everybody knows is what she said. Everybody knows what happens when you have a precision strike with these kinds of weapons. These weapons have never been used before in the history of the planet. But everybody knows what happens. It's just beyond the silliness. And if anybody pushes back, they demand 100% fealty. And anything beyond that sets off anger and frustration because of the fragility. And speaking of which, my favorite comment from the news has been, has this attack. What is the future for Ali Khamenei, for the Ayatollah? What is the future? Does this put his future in doubt? And you're like, he's 86 and. And he ain't Jack Lalanne. Like, he's not the healthiest dude in the world. Like, I don't know what's more dangerous right now to the Ayatollah, the American and Israeli attacks or stairs. Like, this is fuck, man. But I am, you know, in these moments, I. Years ago, a friend of mine, Maziar Bahari, was a journalist and was imprisoned in Iran, and he wrote a book about his time in solitary confinement. He was imprisoned for reporting on the Green Revolution in 2008, 2009, during that election, and wrote a book about it called and Then They Came for Me. And then he and I did a movie about it called Rosewater. And now he does, still a journalist, and does something called IranWire.com, which allows voices within Iran to have an outlet where information, because it's a difficult country to get information out of, can come out. And he is such an interesting and has such an encyclopedic and brilliant knowledge of all that has happened in that country and. And the things that are currently happening. And the first thing I thought as I saw this was, boy, I just want to talk to Maziar and just see how he's feeling, what he's thinking about this. And so very luckily, we're going to get a chance to do that today. Ladies and gentlemen. Oh, what a. What a treat today. We're very excited. Our guest today. Oh, my goodness. Writer, journalist, filmmaker, Bon Vivant, traveler of international renown, author Maziar Bahari. And also the publisher of IranWire.com and my. My dear old friend Maziar. What are you doing, man?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, you know, you called me a bon vivant, but Vivant is not bon.

[Jon Stewart]

It's not good at all. No. Yes. No, I could see. I recognize that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it's. No, it's a very, very sad and tragic moment for many Iranians, including myself, all around the world, but for me personally, because many of our colleagues in Iran and citizen journalists and also the families of our colleagues outside of Iran have been harassed and they've been interrogated by different intelligence agents. And this is something that the Iranian government does when it loses a war, a fight. Iran has been defeated by Israel. Iran has been embarrassed, and we are worried that what they're going to do. They executed three people this morning because of espionage and because of an assassination that happened two years ago, they've been forcing people to confess against themselves. So Iranians, really, really, they're stuck between this thuggish hostage taking, corrupt government and Israelis who think that by bombing they can solve everything. That by bombing they can bring democracy to Iran. And people are thinking that, okay, if with bombing you could bring democracy to a country, Gaza would be a Scandinavian democracy by now. Gaza would be like Norway.

[Jon Stewart]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

So Iranians are just. They have these mixed feelings. And as people outside of Iran who are in touch with Iran all the time, we just feel helpless. And this is just so depressing. So it's just horrible.

[Jon Stewart]

I want. I want to step back for. For the audience right now just to. To give a sense of where Mazar is coming from. So Mazar, for many you don't remember, wrote a book called and Then They Came. For me, you were covering the Green Revolution. This was the 2008 election. I think it was 2009. Two. 2009. Ahmad Dinajad against. Was it Mosavi Moabi? Yeah. So Maziar was covering it, filming at the Basij stations where there was a lot of violence. That's sort of their kind of secret police that would come out on these motorcycles and harass and hurt people.

[Unknown Speaker]

A Basij arms depot.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

In the middle of a residential neighborhood for people. Don't forget that.

[Jon Stewart]

And people were going up to that and being shot and killed. And Maziar was arrested, interrogated, and then held in solitary confinement at Evan Prison for months until a campaign spearheaded by his wife, Paula, and many other international human rights groups got him released, got him out. So your experience in Iran is. Is of this moment that you're talking about the Iranian government cracking down on what they think are the dissidents and the people that are undermining whatever their security is. Iran Wire, which is the site you started, is an incredible outlet for these citizen journalists that are in Iran. So just to give kind of that, you know, kind of a. A basic run there of where it is that. That you're coming from there. You've experienced this cycle personally, and now you think that's going to play out on the streets. Have you. Have your sources there been able to still reach out, or is it kind of a. A radio silence right now? What are. What are you saying?

[Unknown Speaker]

It's been very difficult. Yeah, yeah, it's been very difficult because sometimes they narrow the bandwidth of the Internet, sometimes they. They shut down the Internet. So it's been very difficult to get in touch with us. And, you know, both citizen journalists and officials as well, since last year, when former President Raisi died in a helicopter crash, many Iranian officials have been in touch with us and leaking information because they think that they are on a sinking ship and they don't know what's going to happen. And because of that, they are informing us about different things. And one thing that they're talking about is corruption. So I. I always like to say that the Islamic Republic is not either an Islamic or republic. You remember that episode of Seinfeld that, you know, remember that episode of Seinfeld that George told Jerry that, you know, it's my artistic integrity that I'm worried about. And Jerry goes, what the. You're talking about? You're not artistic, and you don't have any integrity. That is the Islamic Republic. So.

[Jon Stewart]

Maziah Bahari, by the way, one of the only Iran experts who will quote Seinfeld fluently.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

One of the only ones.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And Days of Our Lives.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, And Days of Our Lives. What. So what are they. What are they saying now? Is it that the corruption may be the. The thing that finally kind of undermines their authority?

[Unknown Speaker]

So let me go through my spiel. So the Islamic Republic right now, Islamic Republic of Iran is not Islamic Republic of Iran. It's Islamic Republic of Corruption. It's Islamic Republic of Persecution and Islamic Republic of Masturbation. We get to the masturbation in a few. Wait, what I tell you, all right, so this is a government that's corrupt to the core. Why do you think that the Israelis managed to know how many Revolutionary Guards commanders live in what places, and they managed to kill 12 of them on the first night? Because of the fact that Israel has so many spies around Iran, and because of the fact that they know the coming and going of these Revolutionary Guards commanders. They know exactly where the bases are. They know everything. And how. Because of the spies. Because the. This economy is so bad that they can hire a spy for $5,000. And according to our sources, some of these spies that people see even in prisons, they're not getting like $100,000 or $200,000 like Russian spies during the Cold War. They're getting like $5,000 for a bit of information that. Which commander lives where. And then the Israelis, they juxtapose all that information together, and. And they have this hole which has helped them to do that. And that corruption exists in every aspect of this government and society. It's an Islamic republic of persecution. All it knows. In the absence of any real governing of the country, in the absence of providing people with electricity, in the absence of providing people with employment, all they can do is that imprison people, torture people, you know, arresting people because of their hijab, et cetera. So they're not really interested. They have given up governing the country maybe since 2019, since the protest in 2019. And persecution is what they're doing.

[Jon Stewart]

Those were after the death of Masa Amini. Is that the ones in 2019, before.

[Unknown Speaker]

The death of Mahsa Amini? 2019.

[Jon Stewart]

This is even before that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before the death of Mahsa Amini, when we had three days of total Internet shutdown and they killed almost 2,000 people. And then, of course, during the time of Mahsa Amini, there were others. And then it's the Islamic Republic of Masturbation. Why? Because all they do is that they're just keeping themselves happy with propaganda. All they do is that through these forced confessions, through this propaganda. Like right now, they have these rallies in Tehran for. For the victory of Iran in this war. You know, what victory you should be embarrassed about. So it's really like, you know, when you think about the Islamic Republic's leaders, I would be embarrassed if I were them, because they're not even good at being evil.

[Jon Stewart]

Incompetent at being evil.

[Unknown Speaker]

At incompetence. At being evil.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey everybody. I know y' all are sweating out our latest 110 degree heat wave, but you know what doesn't belong in your summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. Your wireless bill. You plan beach trips, barbecues, three day weekends. Wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Which, by the way, mine. I'm not even going to get into it. I have to pay with like cash and a paper bag that I have to drop off every. That's the whole thing. But with Mint Mobile you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. All plants come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You probably didn't know that. Now you do. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan. Bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch the overpriced wireless. Get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. What the dang. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com TWS that's mint mobile.com TWS upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to, you know, $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on the unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Unknown Speaker]

And on the other hand, you have the Israelis who know exactly what they're doing, who have managed to, you know, destroy Hezbollah to a certain extent, Hamas to a certain extent Iran's. The flights and you know, the airplanes are. And you know, they come and go as much as they want. In 2012. Let me tell you a story. You would be interested in this story.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

In 2012, five Iranian terrorists, they went to Bangkok, Thailand to kill Ehud Barak, who was a minister at the time and who was going to visit Thailand.

[Jon Stewart]

Minister of Israel. Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

He was not prime minister, he was minister, I think foreign affairs at the time.

[Jon Stewart]

He.

[Unknown Speaker]

So he went to Bangkok. Iranians, they sent five agents to kill Ehud Barak. Three of them hang out with hookers the night before. There is a, there is a picture of them in Pattaya, which is a beach just south of Bangkok. On the day of bombing. The bomb that they were supposed to have for Ehud Barak, it blew up in the apartment building that they were. They Were which was a few blocks from Iran's Cultural center in Bangkok. The guys came out, people called the police, they held a taxi, the taxi didn't stop. They threw a hand grenade and the hand grenade bounced back and one of them lost his leg. This is the type of inefficiency of evil you're talking about. You know, like Hannah Arendt. Hannah Arendt talked about the banality of people.

[Jon Stewart]

This is like the inefficiency, ineptitude, the inefficiency and incompetence. But let me ask you, Mazar, so you talked about the difficulty of getting information now out of Iran and into these other things. What about information getting into Iran? And when the Supreme Leader and whoever else it is in the Ministry of Propaganda who are putting out the idea that this is a great victory, I think they put out that they had completely destroyed the American base and Qatar. The people obviously are quite skeptical of all that. But is there an ability for them? Look, it's hard enough for us to get the information. We don't know what happened to those nuclear sites. We don't know what our bombs did. It's hard enough for so called open information societies to understand the realities on the ground within Iran. How much is their propaganda dismissed and with skepticism? How effective is it? I mean, and when we talk about that too, we'll roll back. You know, Iran is not a monolith by any stretch. It's similar to many countries, you know, sort of look at it as red and blue. There's this, you know, divide there. But what is the information that they're getting?

[Unknown Speaker]

So Iranians, when the Internet works normally, like when there is a connection between the Iranians and international World Wide Web, they can get their information. There are many sites that are blocked, including iranwire.com but people use VPNs and people use filter busters. And funnily enough, Iranian government uses Chinese firewalls in order to stop the Internet. And Iranians use Chinese filter busters developed by Chinese, some of them. So they use VPNs, they get the information. There are satellite channels that are beamed into Iran that people look at. And also because the Iranian government cannot at the moment, because of that inefficiency that we talked about, they cannot shut down the Internet totally. There are times that people can get the information. So we are using WhatsApp, for example, we have a channel on WhatsApp, on Telegram, so people can get the information as much as they want. But yesterday the Iranian government sent an sms, a text to many Iranians, millions of Iranians around the country saying that you should not like or post on any Zionist or Zionist friendly sites or platforms.

[Jon Stewart]

And that's open, that's going to be all of them.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean we, that's open to interpretation because you know, anyone can be a Zionist. And for even most of the Iranian government officials that I've met, they don't know what the Zionism means. They all think that Zion was a person. And these people, like you know, Marxist, they support Zion. Who is this Zion that they're talking about? This is something that I heard from a senior government official that damn that Zion who started Zionism. You know, this is a level up but at the same time you have this society that is educated. It's. They are, you know, they want, you know, they're secular. Mostly they hate this government, but unfortunately there is no alternative. So when I hear about regime change in Iran, like from different senators, congress people, different, you know, like the president who talked about, you know, regime change.

[Jon Stewart]

It'S got to happen. Happened. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Regime changed to what? You know, the Iranian opposition has been its own worst enemy for the past few years. When was it? Three, almost three years ago. After the Mahsa Amini's death and during the Woman Life Freedom movement, a few of these opposition figures, they got together in Georgetown University and they had this manifesto and this. And people were really looking forward to something happening. I mean there were actors and actresses and football players, you know, soccer players and you know, people thought that they might be able to do something. They could not even hold that group together for more than a month or so. It's there. So. So the Iranian opposition really does not exist. So imagine if the regime collapses tomorrow. There is no, you know, Mandela or Vaclav Haveli who's going to take care of the country. You know, people compare Iran to the situation in South Africa that you know, bring out, bring to the end of the apartheid. But Mandela was not himself. You know, there are some interesting figures in the Iranian opposition, but they don't have a real political party behind them. Mandela had people like Oliver Tambo, Chris Haney Mbeke, the current president, Cyril Ramaphosa, who managed to negotiations the transition and all that. And also on top of that, ANC, African National Congress that came to power after apartheid was a political party with decades of history. Many of these opposition figures outside of Iran, they have not managed to bring even a small group of people together in an organized way to be able to talk to different governments. They don't talk about, they don't have any plans for transition. People say that, yes, we will be in charge of the transition, but they have no idea about transition, transitional justice. And that means that for the majority of Iranians who are secular, who hate this government and they want change to look at the neighborhood around them, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and those are great role models to emulate. So because of that, we are in a situation where we are. That we have this millions of Iranians who are sophisticated, educated, open minded. They are taken hostage by this group of thugs who are organized, who have power, who have money, et cetera. So when I heard the president yesterday saying these are the two countries that don't know what the fuck they're doing, I think that was the exact emotion that millions of Iranians and most probably millions of Israelis could express as well.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. I want to tell you, there's quite a few Americans who feel that way right now.

[Unknown Speaker]

Americans, what we're doing.

[Jon Stewart]

So there's. It's kind of a universal statement. I think it's why it's become such a meme. But I think also for people to understand, you know, Iran is really split. The power base for this current, you know, the ayatollah is more. The rural areas, more religious, more extreme. There is that dichotomy of the more educated people in the cities and they have a more liberal. But, you know, relate this to when you and I were in Jordan. It was in the middle of sort of that Arab Spring. That feeling of there was a real sense of hope and possibility of what a more democratic ideal might be, generally one that we were kind of projecting onto them. And I think Egypt presents a really interesting example because that was a ground up revolution. First there was Mubarak, who was sort of the authoritarian dictator who had been there for, you know, for, for all those many years. The people on the street during the Arab Spring rose up and over through Mubarak and they were going to institute a democratic election. And what everybody began to realize is, oh, the only people that are organized enough because civic institutions had degraded for so long over that time was Muslim Brotherhood. They were the only ones that had any. So Morsi, through Muslim Brotherhood, becomes the leader of Egypt. They become dissatisfied with Morsi's rule. The streets rise up again. This is. It takes a year. And who takes over? Sisi? Another autocrat, basically, Mubarak again. And now he's very popular. I think the point that you made is really interesting. Without. If you have an authoritarian regime over a period of time, it degrades your civic institutions. So when you talk about who's next. It's maybe another ayatollah, maybe it's somebody from Quds Force, maybe it's somebody from Revolutionary Guard. But it is not probably going to be some democratically minded leader who's going to empower the people. Would that be fair to say?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, let's go back to the premise that, you know, that the country is divided between rural and urban area and educated. I think that was maybe the old paradigm at the moment. We can say that Iran right now is very similar to Soviet Union in the 1980s. So you have many people who support the regime as they did in Soviet Union. You have millions of people who are getting paid by the intelligence services like you had in Soviet Union. And they are supporting an ideology, but at the same time, they are getting paid by the system. So they have material interest in the existence of the system.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. So the government is supporting a lot of them.

[Unknown Speaker]

A lot of them. So in like, 1985, if you ask a KGB agent, do you support the Soviet Union because of the communist ideals and Marxist ideals, or just because you're getting paid? You know, he most probably would say yes because of the ideals, but he was supporting because he was getting paid and because he had seen 70 years of court corruption and dictatorship in his country. And, you know, that, you know, communism did not work. So at the moment, many people who support the government, I would say most people who support the government, they have some material interest. It can be because they are getting paid by Imam Khomeini's charity foundation that is supporting up to 10 million people, maybe because they are getting paid by different foundations because of the Revolutionary Guards. And also, as you know, Revolutionary Gods is not only an army. The Revolutionary Guards is one of the biggest industrial bodies in Iran. It has universities, it has hospitals. So many people are getting paid by the Revolutionary Guards and supported. Going back to the other question that you have in terms of the organized opposition, right? So there is no organized opposition outside of the government at the moment. I would say that the government is fractured into different parts. Some of them are hardcore supporters of Ayatollah Khamenei because they either believe in him as this island of purity in this sea of, you know, corruption and dirt, and someone who, as they say, is the basically the backbone of the revolution. I would say there are. There are many of them. There would be maybe 4 or 5 million of them who vote for the most hardline candidates during the presidential elections usually. But there are many other people who do not believe in the Government they believe in. They. But they work. They still work for the government. And many of them are good bureaucrats. Who would be good bureaucrats for a good.

[Jon Stewart]

No matter what?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, for a good government like, you.

[Jon Stewart]

Know, Iran's deep state.

[Unknown Speaker]

Some diplomats. Exactly. Some diplomats that we have, some accountants, bookkeepers, etc. So they don't have any kind of ideological belonging to the system. So the best case scenario would be to have a leader who would realize that Iran needs stability. And most people really don't care about many of the dictatorial aspects of the regime. They want stabilities in life. And when Trump says they don't know what the fuck they're doing, I can understand his frustration, because as a businessman, he looks at Iran and he says, you guys have gas, you have oil, you have an amazing country. I hang out with these Iranian property owners in New York, and I know how brilliant they are. Why do you keep on, you know, chanting these ideological slogans and just don't make money. Just, you know, be quiet and make money like the rest of the Middle East. Like people in uae, people in Saudi Arabia, people in many other countries. And because of that, I think the best case scenario would be to have a leader who is nationalist, who can bring different groups together, who can give people social freedom, who can tolerate some level of democracy and elections in Iran. And then Iranians would rally around him as someone who has a plan. Because Iranians, they're smart enough to know that if someone doesn't have a plan, they're not going to support that person.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Someone like Mohammed Mossadique that we overthrew in 1953. Well, maybe so. Maybe somebody like that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, Mohammed Mossadegh.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Someone like him. Yeah, because he basically came through the system as well. And, you know, here, let's make an open apprentices because, well, we couldn't allow.

[Jon Stewart]

It because we thought he was a communist. So that.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, exactly. But the thing about Mossadegh as well is that people say here that, you know, not here, like in the US I've seen that a lot of my leftist friends and liberals say that he was democratically elected. Mossadegh was not democratically elected. Mossadegh was. Became prime minister, like many other prime ministers before him and after him. The Shah introduced him to the parliament and he. And, you know, the parliament voted for him as the prime minister. Mossadegh's main mistake, and I think that many other Iranian politicians and many politicians in different places main mistake was to make the Americans afraid of the Soviets so much that, you know, they couldn't trust him anymore. And they said that, you know, okay, we have to bring our own strongman, because Mossad was telling Truman, and then Churchill and Attlee at the time said, if you don't support me, the Soviets are going to take over. The Communists are going to take over. And then the CIA was a young organization at that time. And when Eisenhower came to power with Alan Dulles and they said that, well, if you're so weak that you cannot withstand the Soviets, then we can have our own people. We can have the strong military. So that's why the coup happened.

[Jon Stewart]

And he also did, you know, British Petroleum and the fact that they couldn't trust.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

That Mossadegh would. Would do what they wanted him to do for British Petroleum.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. So I think it's very important to understand, you know, understand the other people's narrative. I think Mossadegh's main problem was that he did not understand the American Cold War narrative at the time. He did not understand the level of fear in the US that that was.

[Jon Stewart]

Viewed as an existential threat in the United States.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, exactly. And the Americans at that time, they didn't care about the narrative in Iran, and they thought, you know, with the coup, they can bring stability and they could break the ally.

[Jon Stewart]

The Shah will be our guy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly. And 25 years later, it backfired. Then there was a revolution in Iran. At the moment, I think that's happening as well, that people don't understand each other's narrative, and there's a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication.

[Jon Stewart]

So let's talk about narrative, because that. You bring up an excellent point, because so much of this is about narrative. So. And I do have a couple of questions on that. One is.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I'm sorry for drinking so much water, it's so hot here that, you know, I have to hydrate myself.

[Jon Stewart]

I can tell. First of all, it's very upsetting to me how good you look. Oh, it's. I'm already upset about that because you too, man.

[Unknown Speaker]

You too.

[Jon Stewart]

Over the years, the eroded.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, my God, no. You look like young George Clooney.

[Jon Stewart]

You know what, Maziar, thank you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Seriously.

[Jon Stewart]

That's very kind of you, sir. By the way, when we were making Rosewater, which is a film about Maziar's experiences in captivity in Iran, we had to get Gael Garcia Bernal to do it because there was no one else handsome enough to play a young Maziah Bahari. It just wasn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

And unfortunately, Peter Sellars was dead. So in the absence of Peter Sellers, he had to get.

[Jon Stewart]

We could have gone to someone handsome enough or witty enough. And we went with Gael, who.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who did a very good job.

[Jon Stewart]

Who did a very good job. Bridge the gap, talking about narrative. So, and. And it's the two narratives, one in Iran, so the revolution. And. And people know that there's a distinction between Khomeini, who was the leader in absentia, and then when the Islamic revolution came to power, he took over. And then when he passed Khamenei. Why do they. If. If this nuclear program is the sole reason that is preventing them from the kind of progress that you're seeing in some of these other nations? Why do they. Is. Do they feel like that's the key to holding on to their power? Is it still the idea of creating a kind of a more Shia dominated power source from Syria through Iran? Is it. I can't wrap my mind around why they do allow themselves to be so at a remove when they do have so much to offer as, as you say, in terms of brain power, in terms of everything they've kind of, you know, it seems like cut off their own nose, despite their face in some regard.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, it's a very good question. And I think it goes back to the. One of the main problems with this government that it has not managed to define itself, the fact that 40 years after the revolution, 46 years after the revolution, they're still calling themselves a revolutionary government. So in 1979, the revolution happened because of mainly two reasons. Iranians, they wanted freedom. They wanted to defeat tyranny.

[Jon Stewart]

The Shah was a brutal force in Iran. People might forget that the Shah was brutal force.

[Unknown Speaker]

And also the Iranians, they started their movement for freedom in 1906, one year after the original Russian revolution. And they had the constitutional revolution. And Iran had the first parliament in Asia. So people started to fight for freedom in 1906. Then, you know, that movement was defeated. Then Shah's father came to power and there were many movements the 1940s and as you said, the coup happened in the early 1950s. So many Iranians, they thought that they could use Khomeini in order to defeat the Shah and then he would just go home and then they could come to power. And at the same time, the Shia clerics, they had a lot of power. In 1962, the Shah had the white revolution. And you know, that undermined the power of the clergy in Iran. So the clergy, they really developed the.

[Jon Stewart]

What was the white revolution? Go back to that because I'm not Familiar.

[Unknown Speaker]

So, yeah. So the White Revolution had two main tenets. One was that the big lands had to be taken away from landowners and divided into farmers because the Shah, that feudal system that existed in Iran at the time was a main obstacle to the progress of Iran. And he was inspired by Kennedy, actually. He had. He was, you know, that at that time Kennedy was in power. So there was a lot of conversation between the Kennedy administration and Iran. And the second tenet was the given giving women the right to vote. So when Khomeini started his movement in 1962, he wrote a letter to the Shah saying that, you know, your royal majesty, he's. He used the word royal majesty. Giving women the vote is going to drive them to prostitution, you know, like, you know, okay, women get vote and then they go to a brothel immediately, you know, just like that. It's going to. This letter is available online, you know, and then, so the White Revolution. So after the White Revolution, Khomeini, of course, had his original uprising. He was sent into exile. Many of his supporters were killed and put in jail, including this, the current supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, who was, I think around 23, 24 at the time. He was born in 1939. So the clergy, they wanted to take power. And so in 1979, these two forces, the Nationalist forces and the Islamic forces, they managed to topple the Shah. But again, as you said about Egypt, the nationalist, the Islamic forces, they were more organized. Khomeini had a network of people in mosques around the country. He was a very good communicator. He knew how to use the cassette tapes. He was sending his messages to Iran in cassette tapes. He was using photocopies of his messages. So that was distributed all around Iran. So when the revolution happened in February 1979, Khomeini managed to get rid of all the other groups one by one, put people in jail, execute them, and then be the absolute ruler of Iran.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey. Hey. What do you got there? Business. You realize your business needed to hire someone and you needed them yesterday. Well, how are you going to find it? How are you going to find amazing candidates fast? What are you going to walk outside, ask people directly that just use indeed stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast sponsored jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. What do you want to be on the bottom of the page? Come on, you're the boss. It's your business. Get yourself to the top of the page, for God's sakes. According to INDEED data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than the non sponsored jobs with Indeed Sponsored jobs. There's no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. What more do you want from these people? How fast is Indeed in the minute? I've been talking to you and it might feel like longer. 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed data. That's worldwide. Join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use INDEED to hire great talent past. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com weekly, just go to Indeed.com weekly. Right now support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com weekly terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Now, do you think Iran. Now, if that's the origin story of sort of this, this new version, do they define themselves through the Islamic premise? Do they define themselves through opposition to the Great Satan, which would be America and I'm assuming Israel? Do they define themselves, you know, through this idea that they are a counterweight to the majority Sunni population in the region? Like what is, what's kind of the defining foundation then that holds the nation together?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, so I remember that I didn't answer your question about the nuclear. So I'm going to answer both of them at the same time. Yeah, I know I answer both of them at the same time. Okay, so again, like what we are talking about the opposition right now. When Khomeini came to power, he had an ideal of crime, creating Islamic utopia, exporting the revolution. And he inspired millions of people around the world. You know, there's a guy who lives in Iran right now who came from Washington and you know, he killed someone on behalf of the Iranian government. And he's been living in Iran for the past 46 years. He inspired millions of people around the world. And as you remember, in the 1970s and the 60s, revolutions were invoked. So Khomeini was really a good revolutionary leader. But that utopia was, you know, was a realistic idea. It was a mirage. Islamic republic, as we said that, you know, it's like, you know, George, with artistic integrity that, you know, that does not exist. So in the absence of being able to create this Islamic utopia, what Khomeini did and what his successor, Ali Khamenei did. Since he's been in power since 1988, since 1989. Sorry. He's been. They've been. They've been insisting on that revolutionary aspect of the Iranian government.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of the Islamic Republic. And what do you need for a revolution? You need an enemy. So you have to have enemies. And Khomeini said it himself that Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran in 1980 was a gift to the Islamic Republic. Because when Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and started the Iran Iraq war, for eight years that brought everyone together and they supported Khomeini. And as a result, people, you know, he managed to mobilize people. Then Khomeini died in 1989, Ali Khamenei came to power and he's been. His catchphrase is Doshman the enemy. And, you know, he's been talking about Doshman and, you know, talking about Doshman is like, really, for him is. It's. Give him this, you know, it's his character. It's like, you know, Barry Gibb finding his falsetto. You know, it's just like that, you know, it's like when you think about Barry Gibb before, you know, see, this.

[Jon Stewart]

Is the fun of hanging out with Mazia.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no, but seriously, like, you know, Saturday Night Fever before and after, it's like, you know, it's like Khamini talks about.

[Jon Stewart]

No, once they found that signature sound, man, Doshman.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

Doshman was the staying alive, you know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because apparently Khamenei smokes opium. And you know, people who've known him, they say that every now and then he likes to smoke a little bit of opium. He doesn't say Douchman, he says Dogeman, which is a very much, you know, like an opium affected sound. Anyway, so, yeah, so he has to define a new Douchman, a new enemy for himself every time. So it was Saddam Hussein, which was a blessing. And then of course, America, the great Satan, Israel, the little Satan. And then, you know, then I think around 1993, 94, he talked about the cultural invasion because of the Western cultural invasion, because of all the Velvet revolutions that were happening in Eastern Europe. He talked about that. So he keeps on talking about that. And how can you defeat Dutchman and enemy, you know, through military power. And what is the most potent military device that you can have to defeat and, you know, defeat the enemies? That's the nuclear program. And they've been trying to do that since.

[Jon Stewart]

Wow.

[Unknown Speaker]

As far as we know, since the late 1980s when the former Revolutionary Guards commander and the letter Is available as Khomeini. After many defeats during the Iran Iraq war, that we have to start developing a nuclear program.

[Jon Stewart]

Wasn't even the Shah pursuing that? I think towards the end?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, Shah was not pursuing. Shah was not pursuing nuclear weapon.

[Jon Stewart]

He was a weapon.

[Unknown Speaker]

We don't know yet. We don't know. I think the funny thing about the Shah is that the Americans, they helped the Shah during the time of eisenhower, around the 1956. 55. 56, to develop the program Atoms for Peace. And many countries, they had that. And the Shah had a very smart idea, actually. The Shah was saying that oil is a finite resource, so we cannot use oil only for heat. And, you know, we have to have alternative, alternative sources of power and keep oil for other usage. So the Shah was developing nuclear energy and in early wanted to diversify. Yeah, a lot. Yeah. Around late 1970s, there are some documents that some Israelis, they were saying that the Shah should develop nuclear weapon in order to be able to defeat the Arab enemies the same way or at least frighten the Arab enemies. And at that time, the Americans, they did not want the Shah to have that and prevented that. And when this government came to power, it basically got rid of all the nuclear program in the beginning. And then they started again in the late 1980s. So when you go to the Israeli archives, that part of the archives is still not available to the public. But when you talk to the people in the Israeli army in the old times, the army, the military attache, the Mossad people in Iran at the time, they're telling you that that's what happened, that we wanted to have Iran nuclear program. And the other thing is that, you know, between Iran and Israel is that there is no real beef between Iran and Israel. Iran needs Israel, by the way.

[Jon Stewart]

I think more, more Jews in Iran.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Than any other country around there. After Israel and the United States.

[Unknown Speaker]

Maybe after Turkey, I'm not 100% sure, but.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Maybe Turkey. Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's a sizable Jewish community in Iran, and it's one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world. And you know that they're not Ashkenazi and they're not Sephardic. There are, you know, Iranian Jews. Persian Jews.

[Jon Stewart]

Persian Jews, Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, and there are many of them is. They are very close to where you live. You know, they're in Long Island.

[Jon Stewart]

Wait, what?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

I thought it was Los Angeles.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no, no, no. Great Snake, Great Neck in Long island, it has the biggest Persian Jewish community. They know, you know, they know the words which is like, these are like Beautiful areas. They have very, very.

[Jon Stewart]

You got to go by waterfront, you know, the Jews.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly. So, yeah, so there's no beef between Iran and Israel, but it is.

[Jon Stewart]

They, they. Iran's been very clear they would like to destroy Israel and Israel's been very clear they would like to destroy at least this regime.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, well, Iran has to say that again because Khamenei and the regime as a whole, they need an enemy.

[Jon Stewart]

But Doshman, that's the doshman.

[Unknown Speaker]

They need the doshman. Yeah. Or Dogeman if you want to emulate.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

So yeah, there is no, in the Shah's time, there was no de facto relationship between Iran and Israel, but Israelis had up to 10,000 people working in Iran in different industries, advisors. There was a direct flight between Tehran and television Tel Aviv.

[Jon Stewart]

Really?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. To ordinary Iranians, there are no animosity between Iran and Israel, you know. Yes, of course.

[Jon Stewart]

When people do they not. Is the Palestinian question not as important to the Iranians?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, the thing is that the Palestinian question is as important to Iranians as the situation of Rohingya is, is important to the Israelis. You know, they are sad about it. Yes, of course. When they see destroyed houses, dead children, et cetera, they're sad about it, but it's not their issue. The same thing for the Israelis. The Israelis, when they look at the Rohingya in Burma, they're sad about it, but this is not something that has to do with them. So many Iranians, they just don't understand why they are stuck between a corrupt, violent government, a regime and a government in Israel that thinks that they can just bomb everything. And the solution to everything is bombing, including bringing democracy. And the icing on the cake was a few days ago when the Israelis, they bombed Evan prison in a symbolic gesture that we want to, we are free to Iran. And what happened, Many buildings were destroyed, many windows were shattered and many prisoners were hurt seriously, were injured seriously. And those are the people who hate the Iranian government and those are the people who are the future of Iran. And the Israelis are hurting them because they want to bring democracy, Iran to Iran.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. This is such, it, it's, it's such a repeat of so many of the ill founded efforts that we have had in that region for these past 100 years of, of that idea of, oh, we're going to bring democracy. How does the Saudi bloc and Qatar, uae, how do they play into this? Because I'm always surprised given the brutality of this campaign in Gaza, given this, you know, there's a lot of rhetoric from Turkey The Saudis, Qatar. Nobody seems to do anything. Nobody seems to want to get involved on behalf of the Palestinians, like to create. They'll. They'll. Every now and again, they'll put out a kind of statement about a peace plan that they were going to do, but nobody will put skin in the game. And I'm wondering now, you know, as they're bombing Iran, the passivity of all the other countries, is that tacit approval of these actions?

[Unknown Speaker]

I wouldn't say that it's tacit. Yeah, I wouldn't say that it's a tacit approval, some of them, you know, because Iran has been trying to have its proxies in different countries, including Saudi Arabia, and it has cells in Bahrain and UAE and Kuwait.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, certainly Hezbollah and Hamas are the most well known.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, but also smaller groups. Yeah, smaller groups they have in Saudi Arabia, in Bahrain and other places. And, you know, Iran and Saudi Arabia, they haven't had a very, you know, brotherly relationship since 1979, even before that. But so on one hand, many people in among the Arab countries around the Persian Gulf, they. They're kind of happy that, you know, Iran and Israel are fighting and the fact that Iran is being weakened by Israel and the United States, but at the same time, because the security and stability of the region, especially the strait of hormones where, you know, so much oil. Yeah, 20% of the oil produced in the world, they go, it goes through straight up Hormuz every day. They are worried about the stability of that region. So maybe they're hard. In their heart, they're happy that Iran is being weakened. But when they think about it this, the instability and insecurity of the region is not something that can be helping even the Persian Gulf Arab countries.

[Jon Stewart]

And for all that time, again, people always talk about the off ramps. I think what's so helpful about this, Maziar, is you giving us the kind of context and background about how Iran developed and how they got here gives us sort of an idea into the psychology of it. You know, you and I still live in the 1979 world to some extent. I would imagine that the majority of people now in Iran and in that region do not in any way, remember 1979, don't have any real ties to that, you know, the enemies and. And foes and friends of that time. It does present an opportunity to redefine what that region can be. It seems insane to me that this region has been so fraught. What are the real dangers?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, you know, in Iran, the situation is not like, as you Described because in Iran, they celebrate 1979 revolution every day. People see pictures.

[Jon Stewart]

They still live in that moment.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah. People see, see pictures of Khomeini, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the revolution every day. And people collectively remember of the collective fuck up that they had in 1979, who came to the streets and chanted, when the devil goes out, the angel comes in. Meaning that when the Shah goes out, the angel Ruhollah Khomeini would come in. And I think, yeah, I mean, the whole nation, even the young people who don't remember 1979 and the majority of Iranians, maybe 85% have been born out after 1979. They still regret that historical mistake that they made in 1979, to have a revolution without knowing, without having a plan for the future. And that includes many people in the government now, people who were revolutionaries at the time. When you talk to them privately and sometimes even publicly when you talk to them, they said, we made a mistake. We should have given the Shah the opportunity to reform the country. The Shah was afraid of the Soviets, of the Communists. And then maybe after the collapse of Soviet Union, there would be more opening. In any case, the situation would not be as bad as it is now. And that is according to many people who, within the Iranian government, are their.

[Jon Stewart]

Resentments more internal or are there resentments that, look, we've imposed really devastating sanctions on that country. You know, I would imagine it's very easy for them to point to, as they did with you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

That you are an agent of the west sent to weaken them. That's been their game plan. You've been the doshman. The west has been the dochman for so long. Yeah. That how reflective are they? And even within Iran, for those who resent, you know, what would you say is the. Is the regime's actual sort of support level, you know, given everything that's happened?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. I would say based on the last election that we had, and the majority of people voted for the person who was not Khamenei's first choice for president, and people, you know, about 5 to 6 million people or maybe a little bit more, 7 million people, maybe they voted for Djalili, who was Khamenei's chosen candidate during the presidential election last year, I would say that is the highest level of support that you would have in the country. And that includes people who are getting funding by the government, the intelligence agents, etc. But this question of sanctions is very important because I think it's Multi layered. The problem is multi layered. In order to impose targeted sanctions against the nuclear program, against the human rights violators in terms of certain sectors within the Iranian economy, you need the bureaucracy to back it up. You need the people in the treasury, in the State Department, other places in order to be able to liaise with the banks saying that okay, this pharmaceutical company that wants to bring to wants to import medicine from the U.S. or medical equipment from the U.S. they can be exempted. They can have this OFAC license that treasury issues for the exceptions. But that bureaucracy has not existed in the US government since the beginning, since 1979 when Carter's administration imposed the sanction. And neither Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Obama, Bush Sr. Bush Jr. None of them had that. And it doesn't exist at the moment. And at the same time, the Revolutionary Guards is not only a military force in Iran, it is the biggest industrialist in Iran and it has many companies. It has shares in some private companies. So when the Revolutionary Guards Corps IRGC is proscribed, is subjected to sanctions, that means that the pharmaceutical companies that are owned by the Revolutionary Guards, the pharmaceutical companies that bring medical equipment to Iran, they are subjected to sanctions as well. That somehow resembles hiding among civilians for the Revolutionary Guards because it is like an octopus. It has its tentacles everywhere in every aspect of Iranian society. And sometimes you are a bookkeeper or you're an accountant working for a company for a pharmaceutical company and then the Revolutionary Guards take over. You're immediately become subjected to sanctions by the American government and many other governments. So I think this is. This question about sanctions is very, very complicated.

[Jon Stewart]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan.

[Maziar Bahari]

Equivalent to $15 per month required.

[Jon Stewart]

New customer offer for first three months only.

[Maziar Bahari]

Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. Cementmobile.com this episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy Skills like earning, saving and investing and this investment costs less than that. After school treat spending start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free [e-mail] Spotify greenlight.com Spotify.

[Unknown Speaker]

But I think the main reason for the sanctions is the behavior of the Iranian government. In 1979 when the sanctions started, they started because a group of students inspired and supported by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini took over the American embassy in Tehran, meaning the part of the American land. And I think that resentment still exists among many American diplomats and actually among many older Americans who are voting for different elections.

[Jon Stewart]

Absolutely. That's what I meant by in. For the younger Americans, I don't think they have any foreknowledge of that. But for older people who still remember the pain of that time. That's why I'm saying this seems like a moment where we can finally break free from this kind of historic, self defeating pattern that has isolated an education though. Well, it's funny, you always think the one thing Maziar was always really clear, clear with me. So we always talked about this when we were sort of working on the film was the difference between incompetence and evil. And you know, you were always really clear that so much of. And we tried to sort of insinuate that with the interrogator that used to. That Kim Bodnia who played your interrogator, that would come in this idea that they weren't evil as much as ignorant and incompetent. And that chasm seems like it's only grown. And it is the Revolutionary Guard, the only organization within Iran now that kind of functions as holding that whole thing together.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I think the civil society in Iran is still very strong. Iranians are educated. And since the Woman Life freedom movement, Iranian society has changed a lot. You see stronger civil society groups. And these civil society groups, they are not maybe politically active and they want to topple the government. They are environmentalists. They are involved in providing employment to different people. They are targeting poverty in different parts of the group. Society as a whole is really progressing and it's really advancing regardless of what the government is doing.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. Almost nature finds a way.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly. And you know, some, many Iranians, in the absence of any viable opposition to this government, they are implicitly and explicitly asking the government, just leave us alone. Just leave us the alone, which we want to do. You know, we want to provide jobs, we want to clean the environment. This is the air that we all are breathing. Let us clean the air. What's wrong with that? But the Revolutionary Guards, on the other hand, they are very organized. But again, the Revolutionary Guards is not a monolith. There are different factions within the Revolutionary Guards who are fighting against each other. A voice file came, came out about five, six years ago. It was about the clash between Qassim Soleimani, the former head of the Quds Force and the commander of the Revolutionary Guards. And because of the fact that Soleimani was involved in some money laundering, et cetera. So that guy was criticizing him. So Revolutionary Guards is not a monolith as well. And also, you have to remember that, and I hope that the American administration remembers that as well, that many people, they are drafted into Revolutionary Guards. So when a young person is graduating from high school or maybe not drafting and joins the army, they have a few choices. They can go to the army, the navy, or they can be drafted into Revolutionary Guards. And they have no ideological belonging to the Revolutionary Guard. They don't ideologically support, but they're just drafted to the revolutionary regards. So the revolutionary regards is really not a monolith as well. And yeah, so in the absence of any viable, viable opposition, in the absence of any viable alternative, the majority of Iranians, they want security, they want peace, they want. They want to be able to provide the basics for the family, whether under this government or not, and have a.

[Jon Stewart]

Sense of a future. I mean, it's.

[Unknown Speaker]

And they want to have a sense of future. And I think, yeah, I think that's very important. You know, when the Israelis, they are targeting Tehran and they're targeting civilian areas or they're targeting oil refineries. And when people remember what the Israelis have done in Gaza, that doesn't give them the confidence that the Israelis, they want to.

[Jon Stewart]

They have their best interest at heart.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly. That they want to work with them in the future.

[Jon Stewart]

But see, this is what's so heartbreaking about this region. And this is something that I think I learned from working with you and from being over there. I don't know of a region of the world where there is a larger gap between the nature of the people and the nature of their leadership. The extremities of people's leadership in these areas versus, I mean, I can remember when we sent Jason Jones, when we originally interviewed you during the. That time of the Ahmadinejad election, a warmer group of people, better educated, a more artistic. You will not find when, when you go into often these regions that are being torn apart by extremist violence. You know, the People in Palestine, a more hospitable, like, lovely with nothing, who. I remember we would go into those refugee camps in, in Jordan, people with nothing, who wanted only to invite us in and feed us.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And I was so struck by the gap between the beauty of the hearts of those people and the hardness of the hearts of the leadership. And I feel like that is where we're caught right now.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And you know, when you travel to countries like Malaysia or Thailand or any other South Asian countries, but I'm giving Malaysia as an example because it's a Muslim country and they don't have any relations with Israel. The majority of people don't like Israel because of what it's doing to the Palestinians. But the Malaysian government does not build a weapon and write in Hebrew on it, death to Israel. You know, they don't invest so much money into denying the Holocaust, into antisemitic propaganda. No, they don't have relations with Israel, but, you know, they are doing their job. They have good relations with the us.

[Jon Stewart]

But it's not their reason for existing is to destroy them.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly. It's not the reasons for this. They don't do anything about Israel. They just don't like it. They don't deal with them, that's all. Maybe they deal with them with that, but it's not something that the Malaysians, they wake up in the morning and see death to Israel all the time. And you know, if you think about it like when you're, if you're an Israeli and I've been to Israel a few times in the past 10 years or so, when you are an Israeli and you have this government that chants Death to Israel all the time, as I said, and the example I gave is a real example that they build bombs and they wrote on, in Hebrew on it, death to Israel. And at the same time, you see that they are funding groups that are acting against you. That doesn't give you the confidence as an Israeli that, you know, you can deal with this government and you think about doing something.

[Jon Stewart]

Then you also, though, have, have politicians in the Knesset saying we should nuke Gaza. I mean, that's exactly. I can't imagine that's giving much confidence on the other side.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of course. I mean, there are some rabbis in Israel who are saying that we have to emulate Iran and we have it all Jewish kingdom in Israel. But I mean, we are not talking about, like the extremes. We are talking about normal people for normal Israel.

[Jon Stewart]

That's what I mean.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I think it would be interesting. But the problem is that there is the narrative. Exactly. That the ordinary Israelis, they do not understand the narrative of ordinary Iranians and vice versa.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

If I want to blow our own horn, is that what we are doing in Iran, where we are trying to somehow translate these narratives for the Iranian utterances about what the rest of the world are saying and for the rest of the world what the Iranians are saying?

[Jon Stewart]

And it kind of takes us around sort of full circle to what we were talking about earlier. And, you know, we're talking to Maziar Bahari who had been imprisoned in Evan and has certainly, you know, his family had been arrested by the Shah. I mean, that's the other thing I want to make clear is, you know, Masiar's experience, his experience was with Khamenei and being in solitary confinement. His father's experience was with similar repression, but under the Shah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Jon Stewart]

And so you've, you've seen, you know, the, the US Aligned government and the non U S. Aligned government acting in, in the same fashion, you know, as they say, meet the within the same.

[Unknown Speaker]

But similar fashion.

[Jon Stewart]

Similar fashion. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Is there some way, and this is probably a question beyond all of it, where a country born in revolution and let's say the birthday is 79, or in Israel born in Zionism or whatever it was that that created it through that they mature past this existential tightrope that they seem to always feel like they're walking and, and, and get past whatever they believe is the fear or humiliation of, of actions and take this chance of, of maturing past that moment and giving their good people an opportunity to rejoin the family of other nations and, and, and still obviously have issues and, and act normal like that. That's it. Act normal.

[Unknown Speaker]

Act normal. Like, you know, with the government of Malaysia, for example, it's not the best government in the world, but it doesn't wake up and say, death, America. You know, it took you about two or three minutes to ask that question. I think that process, it was a long question. No, but it's, you know, but I'm.

[Jon Stewart]

Trying to work my way through.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no, no, but it's. No, but it's important for the right question to be asked. You need to take your time, you need to think about it and you need to articulate it for this change that you're asking about. People have to think about it, people have to introspect and people have to come up with solutions. The Iranian society, the majority of Iranians are doing that. What you're asking about is not going to happen as a result of a bombing. It's not going to happen as a result of sudden change. As I said, after the woman life freedom, Iranian society was changing, it has been changing. This set of bombing, this 12 day war. I'm not sure whether it's going to be an obstacle to that or it may have weakened the regime to a certain extent that they may listen to people. If they're wise enough, they would be listening to people and don't worry about hijab and things like that. And they would just try to have people on their side and survive, but survive in a more normal way. But there's also the fear, the danger that they go Ayatollah Khomeini's way, that after 1988, after defeat from Iraq, the military defeat, they can close the society. But one way or another, I am very hopeful about long term future of Iran because the people I talk to, the young women and men I talk to, especially young women, I think the Iranian women, they're just, it's just, it's really their, their future is theirs. And when you think about the sacrifices that they've made, the amount of shit they have to go through since 1979 and even before that and their resilience and their brilliance, you can see that the future of Iran can be in the hands of these women. And I'm very hopeful about the long term future of Iran. But in the short term, especially in the next few months after such a humiliating defeat by Israelis and Americans, I'm not sure there might be some tragedies happening in the next few days, weeks, months.

[Jon Stewart]

And I can remember you and I would talk about, you know, these movements and the Green Movement and, and when they would sort of dissipate, the people would come out on the street, the Basij or the Revolutionary Guard or you know, would. Would put it down violently. And you said something to me once that really struck with me, which was the people of Iran decided they like life more than they like freedom.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

And that they were tired of for their freedom having to put themselves in such harm's way. And, and boy, that that was such a celebrate life.

[Unknown Speaker]

They just want to have a normal life. And you know the most famous song that came out of the woman life freedom, it's called Baraye 4. And the main line in that song is for a normal life. And that is something that people have been fighting for. Just a normal life. I want to go out, I want to buy a piece of bread. I Want to just, you know, hang out with my friends. I want to drink coffee. And that is not. That is not allowed in a normal.

[Jon Stewart]

And that is not against God. And that is not something that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

Guys on motorcycles with fucking sticks should drive through us and start beating us as we're doing it.

[Unknown Speaker]

And the sad thing is that they are shooting themselves in the foot and they are undermining their own authority by alienating people, by alienating people who may have rallied around them at the time of war, at the time that a foreign country has invaded the land. But unfortunately, I'm sure that they're not going to learn from this and they're going to continue with this morality police and things like that.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, Maziar, this has been, for me, just wonderful to see you. Wonderful to catch up with you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Love it to see you, too.

[Jon Stewart]

It's. It's so nice to see you still just passionately doing the work, you know, And I hope the listeners can tell from Mazer. You know, I've always said, like, you're a Renaissance man, like, the amount of knowledge that Mazar has and you heard it on display, but, man, get him going on film and music and it gets even, even deeper and more specific.

[Unknown Speaker]

So, you know, you can always find good analogies with Bee Gees and Seinfeld. So, you know, if you know a few Bee Gees and Seinfeld analogies, I think you're set for life.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, he can. Can pull them in. Very few people of. Of custodians of history have that same knowledge of the disco era.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, thank you very much. Nice to see you too.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, wonderful. And Iran Wire is just this incredible platform that allows people in Iran to still have a voice outside of Iran and get their stories out. And Maziar has been doing that work for now. It's gotta be, what, 10, 10, 12 years.

[Unknown Speaker]

12 years now?

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, 12 years now.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's also available in English, so people can go to iranwire.com comment y read the articles in English or We are also on Substack.

[Jon Stewart]

I read. Oh, look at you. Look at. Look at Modern Mazar. Very nice. Exactly. All right. Well, it's. It's just lovely to see it, Maziar Bahari. Yeah, you too, everybody.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thank you.

[Jon Stewart]

How much you love Maziar Bahari.

[Maziar Bahari]

So funny. He's so great. And he is a dead ringer for Peter Sellers. When he said that, it really, it clicked for me. And Peter Sellers, he never let race get in the way of a good part.

[Jon Stewart]

No, no. And by the way, then that's why we had Gael a. A Mexican national playing in Iranian national. And I remember saying to Maziar when, when we were first, you know, gonna do the movie, I said, maziar, I have this idea, you know, all Iranian cast and, and maybe even we do it in Farsi, like, and this is gonna be the most, you know, naturalistic portrayal. And he was like, don't you want people to see the movie?

[Maziar Bahari]

You know, he's like, my first rule is he has to be handsome.

[Jon Stewart]

That actually was his first rule. He thought Gael was, was close to handsome. So he was, he was good there. But it's so great to hear him. And very few people have again, his knowledge of history, but also culture and are so agile. He's so agile in the way that he weaves it all together, but you can tell he's worried. And I think he has so many friends and family members and people that I think he's really concerned about. And I think he, you know, the uncertainty of the moment I could see is weighing on him.

[Maziar Bahari]

Absolutely. It was so good, though, to get those first person accounts through him of what young people are saying on the ground. And it's just because that's so often lost in this conversation is what the Iranian people want for the future of their country. Just the breadth of what I don't know about Iran, what I assume most Americans don't know about Iran, what I feel confident saying our leaders don't know about Iran. At least Ted Cruz. Staggering, right?

[Jon Stewart]

Well, I can even remember when we did Rosewater. You know, I, you know, we, we talked a lot about it. And the I, the idea was like, if you're an American, this was the most nuanced view of, you know, inside Iran you'd ever seen. But if you were Iranian, it probably felt like an utter farce. Two dimensional sledgehammer, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's the gap between our understandings of the separate countries. And you can see how those gaps lead to such devastating outcomes. And I think Maziar said it best. We said, it's not a monolith. There are those that really support and are really locked into that revolutionary mindset. And there are those that are just like, we just want to fucking live our lives.

[Maziar Bahari]

Yeah. And who can't relate to that? Totally. I was thinking about something you all were saying, which is, you know, the generosity of the people on the ground not matching what the leadership has to say, and is also by design, keeping information from people and framing things a certain Way. And we saw that with the attack on the base in Qatar, where the Internet is cut off from Iran and they just declared victory. And so I think it destroyed.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, it destroyed the base.

[Maziar Bahari]

Yeah. We need to take a moment and think about what information is actually reaching people before we just assume that we disagree with them. And this will be, you know, a protracted battle forever.

[Jon Stewart]

And he. I think he very smartly said, you know, and there are a lot of people there that are grabbing VPNs or, you know, it's. It's ways of bypassing. But that is always going to be a narrower swath of the people. And so we don't know the story that they're being told. And by the way, before we get too kind of high on ourselves, we're not sure the story we're being told.

[Maziar Bahari]

Oh, of course.

[Jon Stewart]

And. And you know, it's been obliterate. They're done. It's over. We had to do it. They were within days. They were. Who the knows anymore. Now we are. We're. We're off next week, right?

[Maziar Bahari]

Yes, we are.

[Jon Stewart]

Little. Little celebration of America's birthday there.

[Maziar Bahari]

Or Big beautiful Bill, if that happens.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, Christ. That's another one where watching them all have to say that reminds me of like whenever you call Disney and they have to end every conversation with and have a beautiful Disney Day or whatever the fuck.

[Maziar Bahari]

They have a magical day.

[Jon Stewart]

Or have a magical day. And it. When they say big beautiful Bill, it feels like a hostage video at almost every turn. Just ridiculous. But Brittany. What. Let's answer the listeners before we get going and then we'll. We'll head off into the sunset.

[Maziar Bahari]

Sure thing. Um, first up, we've got John. Do you think Donald Trump should get the Nobel Peace Prize?

[Jon Stewart]

Sure. Kissinger got it. Why not? Whoever's got the bombs, give him the prize. What the fuck does it even matter that the idea that winning that is.

[Maziar Bahari]

Somehow means anything at this point. It's a big cash prize. I think that's why he's into it.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, is that what he's. Why doesn't he just make his own? He does his own meme coin. Make his own. Do the Trump Peace Prize, award it to yourself, and then have it for the rest of the time. You'd rather have it that. Anyway, that's such a solid prediction.

[Maziar Bahari]

He's going to.

[Jon Stewart]

Right. The Trump Prize will be given to whoever it was that did the most towards world peace, and it turns out it's me. Oh, my God.

[Maziar Bahari]

I win, guys.

[Unknown Speaker]

And they'll.

[Jon Stewart]

And they'll hold the reception at the Kennedy center where he runs it. It'll be perfect. And remember, he said he was going to be a world class. I don't remember what he said. Violinist, flautist, whatever it was that he said. He was talking to somebody saying he could have been world class in an instrument and he can play the music. He's a one man band. What do we need anything else for?

[Maziar Bahari]

He plays the flute.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, I. He said something in an interview like, I, I could have been.

[Maziar Bahari]

Oh, I. My brain just broke. Sorry, new Trump lore just dropped.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said he was in an interview and he was saying to somebody he could have been a world class musician. Could have been whatever else. Yeah, he just decided same. Oh, oh, how, oh, how the world could have been different. What, what else we got?

[Maziar Bahari]

Next up, we've got if you were stranded on an island, Colbert or Corel.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, that's easy. A boat. I would, I would have a boat. Why would I have, why would I have one of those two knuckleheads who neither of us, by the way, that's, that's not even a choice on an island. Like, there's no, there's not a survival skill amongst the three of us. It wouldn't matter who you had on there. We'd all be gone within three days. So I. None of us. A boat. I'd want a boat.

[Maziar Bahari]

There we go.

[Jon Stewart]

For God's sakes. But this is great. I hope you guys have a great week off. Boy, you guys have been fantastic. And give yourselves a good time to decompress. Brittany. What? What? How do they keep in touch with us?

[Maziar Bahari]

Twitter. We are weekly show pod. Instagram threads, TikTok, Blue Sky. We are weekly show podcast and you can like subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel. The weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[Jon Stewart]

Boom. Roasted Lead producer Lauren Walker Producer Brittany Medvedevic Video editor and engineer Robert Tolle Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Gillian Spearhead and our executive producers, Chris McShane, Katie Gray. Guys, have a wonderful week off. We will see you all the week after the week after early July. Thanks so much and see you next time. Bye Bye. The Weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.

[Unknown Speaker]

Paramount Podcasts.