Jack Smith and Brian Driscoll on the Weaponization of Justice

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart

Episode: Jack Smith and Brian Driscoll on the Weaponization of Justice

Release Date: July 8, 2026
Host: Jon Stewart
Guests: Jack Smith (former Special Counsel), Brian Driscoll (former Acting Director of the FBI, 2025)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the escalating politicization and weaponization of the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) and FBI, focusing on the personal experiences of Jack Smith and Brian Driscoll—two public servants who have faced direct retaliation and institutional challenges. Jon Stewart leads an in-depth discussion on the system's vulnerabilities, the consequences for career professionals, and broader questions about preserving the integrity of American law enforcement and public trust in democratic institutions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Speak Out Now? (03:41)

• Jack Smith: He and Driscoll aim to highlight attacks on the rule of law and public servants. Both have been targeted due to politicized interference, and Smith underscores the erosion happening when experienced, principled figures are removed.
  • Quote: "The rule of law in our country does not enforce itself. It takes people of character and integrity to do it. And to undermine it, you have to attack those people." — Jack Smith [03:49]

2. Credentials and Non-Partisanship (05:22)

• Brian Driscoll shares his law enforcement background: NCIS, decades with the FBI, and roles on SWAT, hostage rescue, anti-trafficking, and anti-terrorism operations.
  • Both Smith and Driscoll stress they are not political actors, but career professionals whose ethos is service, not partisanship.

3. Careers Interrupted by Politics (09:21; 11:55)

• Smith and Driscoll recount abrupt changes in their roles:
  • Smith: His career as a line prosecutor, then special counsel, was upended by political retribution.
  • Driscoll: Ousted as acting FBI director after refusing requests to provide lists of agents seen as "anti-Trump"; he anonymized the list for their protection and adhered to established internal review processes.
  • Quote: "I was not going to get into an argument about those allegations. I wanted process... I'm not just leading these people to the edge of an employment cliff just to watch them get kicked off." — Brian Driscoll [13:09]

4. The Weaponization of DOJ & FBI (16:11; 21:15)

• Both guests discuss the accelerating trend where the professional processes are replaced by political purges and fear—leading to a chilling effect and demoralization of the workforce.
  • Smith: "It’s intentional. They’re trying to chill people and send a message: If you investigate my friends or allies, you’ll pay a price." [25:39]

5. Remaining Safeguards and the "Blindfold" of Justice (21:15)

• Driscoll elaborates on institutional ideals (Lady Justice: scales, sword, blindfold)—emphasizing how impartiality is being stripped by current directives.
  • Quote: "When that blindfold is removed...because of an agenda...then we have some problems." — Brian Driscoll [21:48]

6. Internal Accountability and Existing Checks (24:26)

• Discussion about internal controls such as inspections, the Office of Professional Responsibility. Both agree organizations are imperfect, but neither has seen widespread malicious abuse among rank and file.

7. Politicization vs. Policy Change (35:51)

• Both stress that while agencies must accept shifting priorities with changes in administration, they should not accept partisan vetting or loyalty tests.
  • Driscoll: For the first time in his career, he was explicitly asked about his political affiliations during a "vetting" interview—a clear departure from tradition [34:41].
  • Smith reinforces that true career public service means accepting new priorities, not new political tests.

8. Coping with Politicized Orders and Staying (39:26)

• Both advise those still inside the agencies: If asked to do something unethical or illegal, you must refuse—even if it means sacrificing your job. But the ideal is to "stay and do the right thing," preserving process and making weaponization harder.

9. Broken Trust in the Justice System (44:44)

• Stewart and guests discuss the severe erosion in public faith. Perception now dominates over substance, with judges and outcomes instantly categorized politically ("Obama judges," "Trump judges").
  • Smith: The solution is transparency and living by values—integrity and respect—communicated outside D.C. and legal circles.

10. The Impact of Leadership and Internal Morale (55:06)

• Driscoll: Despite problematic appointees at the top, the vast majority of ordinary agents remain committed to the true mission. However, partisan "surges" (like re-tasking agents to partisan investigations) unavoidably damage morale and divert resources from real threats.
  • Quote: "It’s not just how the resources are being allocated...but what’s getting dropped...we have a very heightened national security threat right now." — Brian Driscoll [59:45]

11. The Supreme Court and the Redefinition of Corruption (61:47)

• Smith: Recaps how a string of Supreme Court decisions (McDonnell, Snyder, Skilling, absolute immunity for presidents) have dramatically narrowed what qualifies as public corruption, making prosecution of high-level wrongdoing nearly impossible.
  • Quote: "If there is corruption at the highest levels of our government, there is nobody to look at it. Nobody." — Jack Smith [63:03]

12. The Limits of Special Counsels and Systemic Accountability (70:31)

• Stewart asks if special counsels are still effective or have been fatally hampered by politicization.
  • Smith: The system is built for process, not popular approval; best possible approach is still to stick to established traditions, focus on expertise, and communicate more clearly with the public.

13. The Aftermath of January 6th and Accountability (74:29; 79:18)

• Jon Stewart and guests discuss how January 6th illustrated the breakdown of both political and legal accountability, with impeachment failing and criminal prosecution hamstrung by delay and procedural obstacles.
  • Driscoll: While the system did work in prosecuting actual offenders, holding leaders to account has become nearly impossible.

14. Rebuilding Trust and Future Reform (91:04)

• Smith: After dark eras (like Watergate), real reforms are possible. The DOJ and FBI must become less politicized than even before, with structural reforms to insulate them from presidential whims.
  • Quote: "I think the one thing we can say with certainty is: when there's been more politics, it's been bad, and when there's been less politics, it's been good...are there ways we can make it better?" — Jack Smith [91:04]
• Driscoll: Civilians need to be savvy, know their rights, and seek credible, scarred-but-purposeful leaders. Reforms must hinge on not taking trust for granted, and on courage across society.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• Integrity Over Outcome:
  "I feel like the job of a prosecutor is not achieving a particular outcome...It's doing it the right way. You do the right way and you let the chips fall where they’re going to fall." — Jack Smith [72:47]
• Process as the Antidote to Weaponization:
  "If you can still do your job...just doing your job makes it harder for them to weaponize the department." — Jack Smith [41:00]
• A Story of American Unity (Brian’s motorcycle accident):
  "None of them asked who I voted for...All they saw was a dude in America who needed help, and they helped me." — Brian Driscoll [88:10]

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Selected Timestamps for Key Sections

• Why Smith & Driscoll Came Forward: [03:41]
• Backgrounds/Non-partisan Credentials: [05:22] – [09:40]
• Ejection from Office, Politicized Purge: [12:15] – [15:03]
• Weaponization Explained, Chilling Effect: [16:11], [25:39]
• Political Loyalty Tests at FBI: [34:41]
• Faith in Justice System, Judge Partisanship: [44:44]
• Impact of Supreme Court on Corruption Cases: [61:47]
• Failure of Political/Legal Accountability post-Jan 6: [74:29], [79:18]
• What Next? Calls for Reform: [91:04]

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Tone and Style Notes

• Jon Stewart's tone: Skeptical, pressing, occasionally wryly self-deprecating, consistently seeking specifics on failures and remedies.
• Smith and Driscoll: Calm, deliberate, process- and fact-oriented. Emphasize humility, service, and the risk of personal consequences.
• Atmosphere: Grave but ultimately forward-looking; acknowledges deep crises yet stresses the “no-fail” nature of public service.

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Key Takeaways

• The justice system is under unprecedented threat from politicization, especially through personnel purges and public campaigns to chill independent action.
• Supreme Court decisions have sharply narrowed federal anti-corruption law, creating vast new legal immunities.
• There is little optimism that the current system can hold high-level actors to account without significant reform.
• Nevertheless, both guests stress the enduring importance of process, nonpartisan professionalism, internal checks, and calls for reform on the scale of the post-Watergate era.
• Restoring trust will require action both within institutions (reforms; preserving integrity) and among the public (critical thinking, civic engagement).
• Memorable moment: Brian Driscoll’s account of a motorcycle accident and the spontaneous, identity-blind community response symbolizing hope beyond the dysfunction on display in Washington. [88:10]

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This summary covers the critical content and primary arguments of the episode, useful both to those considering a listen and to those seeking to understand core themes and specifics discussed.

Transcript

[John Stewart]

Npr, National Public Radio and their up first podcast. I don't know if you've seen the up first podcast on npr. It gives you the three biggest news stories of the day and reporting and analysis to actually understand them. That's why you go to NPR, to actually understand things. And they do it in 15 minutes. That's the beautiful thing about it. And our podcast. I don't know how long. Our podcast is probably like two hours long. And I never even usually get past the first question. Like that's how good they are at Up First. They give you the headline and also the context so that you can understand it. It's not just about the clickbait and the head. It's npr. And then who knows, they might do a whole other show on the migration habits of the monarch butterfly. But for up first, that's not their bag. Their bag is context. Headlines helping you start the day with clarity. Follow NPR's Up first podcast so you can understand what matters and what happens next. It's hard news through a human lens. Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at $398 plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $398 or more. No membership required. Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands free autofill for the perfect pour every time and make laundry day easier with 2 in 1 washer dryer combo innovation that completes laundry 90 minutes. Shop top brand appliances now at the Home Depot offer Val June 17th July at US only Sea Store online for details. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the weekly show podcast. My name is John Stewart. It is Tuesday, July 7th. This will air Wednesday, July 8th. We're not going to talk about the 250th celebration. We're not going to talk about the US men's soccer teams. Truly just disappointing performance in in their game against Belgium. All those things worthy of episodes. Not going to be doing it because we have today an unusual opportunity. We have two gentlemen on the show who really should not be on the show. They have lawsuits pending against our federal government. One of them is seemingly in the crosshairs of the newly weaponized Trump Department of Justice under the auspices of Mr. Todd Blanch, who is, as you know, an independent observer of law and not in fact, the president's former lawyer who is just working on his behalf. Well, oops, yes he is and I will just get to it. We are surprised and delighted to get an opportunity to speak with these two gentlemen and we'll get to it right now. All right, so we're going to bring in our guests immediately. We've got Jack Smith, obviously the former special counsel on a classified documents case. In the election interference case. We've got Brian Driscoll, who is a former FBI agent who in 2025 was serving as the acting director of the FBI until being let go by the administration. Brian. Jack, thank you for joining us. Thank you for your service to the rule of law. Let me start with this. I am under the impression that you are, well, Jack, probably more than Brian, but under some legal peril in terms of what you are allowed to talk about, what you are not allowed to talk about. Brian. I think you have a pending lawsuit, Jack, obviously the President has threatened you. Specifically, why are you here? I'll start with Jack.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, sure. Well, first off, John, thanks very much for having us on your show. Brian and I are here because we want to talk about the attack on the rule of law and specifically how that attack has played out against public servants, the people that we spent decades working with. The things that we're seeing over the last year and a half, you know, you can see the output of that. Right. You can see people being targeted. I think Brian and I have a unique perspective, and we understand what's being done to the people who enforce the rule of law. The rule of law in our country does not enforce itself. It takes people of character and integrity to do it. And to undermine it, you have to attack those people. And why I wanted to be here today, John, was to talk about those people, how much we should be valuing them, how much we lose when people like that are targeted, and not just the people who've been fired, but also appreciating the sacrifice of the people who are still manning their posts, still doing their job. I feel like a lot of that is getting lost, and I think more of a discussion about that is. Is part of the solution going forward.

[John Stewart]

And Brian, you, obviously, you're. You're one of those people. You, you know, Jack was special counsel over at the. The doj. You were in the FBI. Give me a little bit about your. Your background real quick about being one of those individuals who's working for the rule of law and had never had a problem before, in fact, was moving up the chain.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, I mean, as far as my background's concerned, I started straight out of graduate school. I went into the Naval Criminal Investigative Service as an agent for about three years and came over to the FBI, and then I served for about close to 18 years. With the FBI as a doer, you know, as a. As a special agent.

[John Stewart]

You were a hostage. You're a hostage and rescue guy? Yeah.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yes, sir.

[John Stewart]

Yeah.

[Brian Driscoll]

For a time during my career, I was an operator. I started, you know, everybody starts as a street agent, a criminal investigator on a squad. I worked organized crime matters, among other things. Then I was on the SWAT team in New York. And then I made the hostage rescue team. Very fortunately, probably some clerical errors in there, but slipped through the cracks and served as an operator and a sniper and a team leader with the hostage rescue team, working embedded with our military on some. Some significant operations as well, but mostly domestically.

[John Stewart]

Right.

[Brian Driscoll]

More than just hostage. Hostage rescues, but very. What I like to say is we. We solve problems like the Wolf, you know, from. From I forget the movie. You know what I'm talking about.

[John Stewart]

I know what you're talking about. I wasn't sure if it was the Wolf or the Jackal. I didn't know what to do around it. But the reason why I want to establish these sort of bonafides and, and credentials is it. So Brian has worked in busting up child exploitation, sex trafficking, and terrorism rings. Jack Smith was at the HA working on crimes against humanity and, and genocide. The. These are universally respected and admired members of. First of all, those are things that almost everybody in the world thinks it's heroic to try and tackle and to try and break up. And yet you have both become embroiled in the political collateral damage of, I guess, our dysfunctional system at this point. So I just wanted to establish what your careers were before all this occurred. Neither of you are partisan political actors, would that be fair to say?

[Jack Smith]

Correct.

[Brian Driscoll]

100 accurate.

[John Stewart]

Jack, let's start with you. You came on people's radar as the special counsel investigating the cases about election interference into the Trump administration and the classified documents cases before that. What were you. What were some of the things that you were working on before you had been tapped by, I'm assuming, Merrick Garland, to, To take those cases?

[Jack Smith]

Sure. I. I think, you know, overarching. John. The thing to understand is Brian and I had similar career paths and that, you know, we may be known to people for the last job we had, but the truth is Brian and myself, we were guys on the line doing the work for the vast majority of our career. I started as a local prosecutor in New York City at the district attorney's office, prosecuting domestic violence and sex crimes cases. I then became a federal prosecutor for nine years in Brooklyn. And again the majority of that time, I was Trying cases. I turned down promotions because I like doing the actual work of being a prosecutor. After that, I was overseas at the International Criminal Court. I was then the chief of the Public Integrity Section, which oversees corruption prosecutions around the United States. Then I moved to Nashville, Tennessee with my family and I became first. I was the first assistant U.S. attorney, which is kind of the second in command in the office. And then during the first Trump administration, I was named the acting U.S. attorney in Nashville. After that job, I went into a private sector job for a very short period of time. And then the Trump administration asked me to come back and serve in the State Department overseas running a war crimes tribunal. And that was what I was doing before I became special counsel.

[John Stewart]

Jesus. And this is so, so, so clearly that's not the career path of, let's say, a James Carville or somebody along those lines. So how did you get tapped to become the special counsel in these classified documents cases? When did Merrick Garland reach out to you? Or is that not how this works?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I, I had had a career public service. Why they picked me? You'd have to ask Merrick Garland about that. I was asked to serve, and my career has been about service. And, and I think Brian and I, again, life and kind of views about this. Public service is a privilege. It's been the. I've spent the best part of my adult life working shoulder to shoulder with people like Brian. And when I was asked to come back and serve in this role, there was no way I was not going to do that.

[John Stewart]

And when you're asked for it, do you say, is this a prosecutable case? Is this a partisan case? Is this too political? Or do you just say, this is my assignment? And, and now it's time for me to go in and start gathering the information with all the tools that I have at my disposal.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I went into it with no preconceived notions. I was living overseas in Europe in this State Department job for the last four years. And so my job was to get up to speed on the facts and on the law and to make a call. And, you know, I listen, I've done big public cases before, big corruption cases before. I knew that no matter what decision I was going to make, somebody was going to criticize it. And I think people who have experience doing those cases, they know, know that all that stuff, the people, what people say in the media, people like you, people don't like you. You're a villain, you're a hero. It's all noise, just noise. I had a great team of public servants who had careers very similar to mine. And we. I think the important thing for your listeners to understand, John, is we did that case the way I did cases throughout my career. Same way, same investigative techniques, same same ways of investigating, same ways of making decisions. And at the end of the day, we felt we could prove that case in court, and that's why we charge the cases.

[John Stewart]

And, Brian, for you, a similar path. I'm assuming you're working your way up all these different areas within the FBI and you are tapped to be the director, I guess, of the FBI, or I guess you were tapped to be the deputy director. Is that what happened first? And they screwed up. There's a bit of a clerical decision here. And so you just ended up being the acting head for a little while. Is that how you came to your role?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I was tapped to be the acting deputy director, and then on January 20, there was a clerical error in the publishing coming from the White House that had my name as the acting or interim director of the FBI rather than my partners. So they were just flipped.

[John Stewart]

So then you became that. Then what happened in. In Brian's case is. So at a certain point, you were asked to compile a list of investigators that had worked on the cases that they deemed were going after Trump or people within Trump world. Would that be accurate to say?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, yeah, in some substance. That's. That's absolutely accurate. And it's all detailed in the complaint that the attorneys put forth as well.

[John Stewart]

And so when you were asked to compile this, you did not do that. You said you gave them in sort of an anonymized grouping. You felt that that was. They would be targeting people politically if you were to give that list. And for no reason.

[Brian Driscoll]

I mean, it was fraught with risk. But before I. I did that, which is accurate, I. I offered an ask for process, existing process to reinvestigate or look for any of the alleged corruption or. Or bad intent.

[John Stewart]

When you say ask for process, what do you mean by that? Not that I'm not up on the law stuff. Trust me, I watch a ton of svu. So don't think that this, none of this is going over my head. But what do you mean by that?

[Brian Driscoll]

Show's the best. So there are existing processes in the DOJ that are purpose built to investigate internally and externally any violation or misconduct or corruption. And those processes are what I articulated when asked for a list based off of just what they were assigned to work on and investigate. Because Agents and analysts and members of the FBI don't get to choose. You are assigned.

[John Stewart]

And so what you're basically saying is what are you accusing these people of? Before I give you a list of, of this kind of a thing, Are you just accusing them of weaponizing? I'm assuming this is about. They're accusing you or these people of weaponizing the DOJ against Donald Trump. Would that be fair?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, I think that's fair. And, and I was not going to get into an argument about those allegations. I was, I wanted process.

[John Stewart]

Right.

[Brian Driscoll]

Articulated process in writing. So I'm not just leading these people to the edge of an employment cliff just to watch them get kicked off.

[John Stewart]

Right. And this is after Cash Patel took over that job or before? Before.

[Brian Driscoll]

It was while I was the acting director early on.

[John Stewart]

So he came in and replaced you and then at that point they let you go?

[Brian Driscoll]

I lasted a few more months. So the current director got in there at the end of February, I believe. And then I, I was shown the door on August 8th.

[John Stewart]

And what was the reason they gave you for showing you the door?

[Brian Driscoll]

I mean, it's, it was a one page memo and, and I, it's, there's nothing of substance and there was no process. So I don't, I'm still not clear.

[John Stewart]

There's nothing in there that says like you were late, you, you weren't wearing your FBI issue polo shirt or jacket.

[Brian Driscoll]

No, say that.

[John Stewart]

None of that. So just left going, that's, I assume the basis of your lawsuit, which you probably can't discuss.

[Jack Smith]

Correct.

[John Stewart]

Fair enough.

[Brian Driscoll]

I could discuss other things and, and I want to.

[John Stewart]

And we will. Young man. Jack, Brian just said something interesting which is you don't get to choose. You, you got to choose whether or not to accept the role. But the investigators that are assigned to you or the people in the FBI, I assume you use all the different tools that are available at your disposal at doj. Those individuals are not given the opportunity, if you're assigning them a task, they can't say this feels political or I don't think I want to work on that because I'm a Trump supporter or a Biden supporter. Is that the case?

[Jack Smith]

That's correct. And I think again for people like Brian and I, it is just 101 Justice Department, FBI politics doesn't play a role in these things. People don't talk about stuff like that. People don't bring up stuff like that. The team of agents who worked on the cases I investigated, John, I've been doing this for 30 years. These people were superstars. They were the best of the best. A lot of them were veterans, people who'd serve their country in all different sorts of ways. And to see those folks demonized and cast aside. One of the reasons I've been so lucky to meet Brian and get to chat with him is Brian's a perfect example of if you think our country is safer when we get rid of people like this, you don't know anything about national security, you don't know anything about fighting corruption in our country. And I think it's very easy to demonize people as faceless bureaucrats when they're not there to tell their story. But when you get an example of the sort of people who worked on my case, the people Brian spent his career with, it becomes very hard to defend the actions against these people. I have seen this attack on the rule of law. Brian used the word process. I think if you want to use one sort of metric to measure this, it's are you going to get pre determined outcomes no matter what hell or high water, or are you going to follow good process? We followed process when we did our investigation, just like I had throughout my career. And the outcome of that process and those facts is what it is and whether people like it or don't like it, that's how you do the job well. And it's the same thing with these agents who were fired. There was no process. Brian was trying to protect these agents and he lost a career that he cherished, that he devoted his life to for doing the right thing. I feel like stories like that, we need to talk about it more. Because to me, in my career, the rule of law was never a partisan thing. It wasn't a Republican, Democrat thing. And I just can't imagine that people of goodwill could hear stories like Brian's story, the stories of the agents who worked on my case, and say, no, that's okay. I'm down with that. That's good. These are the people who, these are role models. You want to raise your kids to be like these people and to have them victimized, it's unfair to them, but we're all going to pay a cost for it, both in the short term and in the long term.

[John Stewart]

Oh my goodness. You know, a lot of these other sponsors, quite frankly, I could give a shit. But Ground News, that's what I'm talking about. This is, this is right. This is the air that I breathe. Ground News is a website and an app because this is America in the 2000 and twenties. You gotta have an app and it helps you better understand the news you consume. So it's like when we talk about funding, you know, we're always talking about where's this money come from? Who's. Who's funding these politicians? Well, maybe it's also important to know who's funding our news, who's subverting our news with big money. With Ground News, you can see who owns every news outlet and you compare how these different outlets frame their stories. Like Bezos might frame it differently. No, I'm just. I was just a name that popped into my head. No reason, no reason why you got to understand who owns it to understand the editorial priorities. They got a blind spot. Feed helps you find stories that aren't being covered by your side. The Nobel Peace center called it an excellent way to stay informed and expand your worldview. To get the same unlimited access to the Vantage subscription, go to ground news.com stewart and subscribe to get 40% off. I've partnered with Ground News to get you the discount that is available only for a limited time. That's groundnews.com stewart or scan the QR code on screen. Thank you to Ground News for sponsoring this episode. Well, let's try and tease apart sort of the idea of special counsels and then just the general DOJ operations because I do think there are slight differences. And special counsels are, I think, more inherently political maybe than, you know, just the general workings of the DoJ in terms of the types of prosecutions that. That they do. So. So, Brian, first of all, the first question I would ask is, do you feel the difference when you're working as an FBI agent or, you know, Jack, when you're working just as a regular person within the DoJ, when administrations change, do you feel the difference between an Obama administration and a Trump administration or. Or first Trump administration and second Trump administration or Biden administration? Brian, how does that play out within the organization?

[Brian Driscoll]

Listen, every administration has their priorities, and that's okay. That's a part of doing business in America, and that's one of the beautiful things about this country. I think the best way I could answer that question is very rarely did I and my career, as well as the careers of those senior engineer to me, have transcended administrations. It has not changed the way we go about doing the job. And I think the best way to illustrate that and kind of demystify what it's like to be an FBI agent for the general, American or otherwise out there is to talk about what's on the center of the FBI badge itself, and it's a depiction of Lady Justice. She's adorned with three things. Scales, a sword and a blindfold. The scales symbolize careful weighing of evidence and process and fairness and balance. The sword is the authority and the, the very serious and respected power of enforcing that law. And the blindfold is the ideal of performing that job with impartiality, objectivity, and without favor. And when that blindfold is removed and the scales are disregarded or are tipped because of an agenda or an influence that's inappropriate and the sword swings wildly, then. Then we have some problems.

[John Stewart]

I want to give people, like, a fuller picture because I think, look, everybody understands that people that are working in these public services are doing so probably with less financial reward than they would if they were going off and doing it in a more mercenary type operation. But everybody also has concerns about the excesses and abuses of the legal system of the doj. There's. I, I want to see if we can separate out political abuses and, and power abuses, if that makes sense. What you're discussing are, you're seeing now political abuses. How do they internally remediate other kinds of abuses? Because there's certainly a lot of people out there who might say, when I go, if I had to go up against the FBI, I couldn't do it. The resources that they have, everything that they bring to bear, whether it's fair or not, you know, with, with RICO or they might want to squeeze somebody at a low level to get somebody higher. You know, people are always concerned about overreach within legal jurisdiction.

[Brian Driscoll]

So I am not concerned about the FBI employees abusing their authority and power. There are at full strength 38,000 FBI employees that are there for a reason. And it is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution. And everybody has a line. And I have never met anybody in 21 years, as almost 21 years as a federal agent that has or would be willing to cross that line.

[John Stewart]

And how does the FBI police that within its own ranks?

[Brian Driscoll]

Oh, there's layers.

[John Stewart]

Okay.

[Brian Driscoll]

There's an entire inspections division. There's Office of Professional Responsibility and the doj. There's checks and balances throughout.

[John Stewart]

And these are put in, I assume, after sort of Hoover's reign, where, you know, trust within the FBI plummets when they find out, oh, they're, they're getting recordings of Martin Luther King and all these. So they've, they've layered in a lot of safeguards for that type of abuse.

[Brian Driscoll]

Right. And it's, it's an imperfect organization with assorted history led by imperfect men and women. But I've never met anybody with malicious intent to leverage the FBI to corrupt or violate the rights of the American citizens.

[John Stewart]

And Jack, same question for you in terms of more the DOJ aspect of it and the authorities, because, look, there is, and I think a fair criticism to be made that when the federal government brings to bear all of its resources against a citizen, that citizen is. Is up against it. I believe the phrase is Schitt's Creek without a paddle. You know, it's very difficult to go up against that. How does DOJ protect against those kinds of abuses?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, so I think these are really important topics. You know, first is just my experience, been in the department as a prosecutor for decades. To your point, John, I'm not saying the DOJ has been perfect at every step. It's a human endeavor. Right. But what I saw is similar to what Brian saw. People of goodwill trying. Trying to do the right thing. Are mistakes made?

[Brian Driscoll]

Sure.

[Jack Smith]

But good prosecutors, they correct it when they make a mistake. In terms of the power, that goes back to the point I was making earlier, that to be a prosecutor, you have to make choices. You have to make judgments about to bring this case, don't bring that case. It is so important that the people in the roles with that serious amount of power are doing it the right way and for the right reasons. And they're not doing it for political reasons. They're doing it because they looked at the facts and they didn't have a predeceived or preconceived notion of the outcome beforehand. That's always going to be tough. And, you know, no matter what decision I make as a prosecutor, if it's a big case, there's going to be certain people who think it's unfair and certain people who think it's great. We can't get away. If we're going to have a justice system of having prosecutors having discretion about which cases to bring one of the. And we can talk a bunch about the different ways we can make the department better, but the biggest one is to put people in the roles making those decisions who have experience and expertise. One of the things I think we see today is the attack on public servants is an attack on expertise that you actually don't need a lot of experience or judgment to do this job. Right. And so making sure that people are qualified for the jobs they have, that they've earned the responsibility they're being given in significant cases, and then to protect those public Servants. I think the thing now that's different than any time in my career is the idea that you could make a prosecutorial decision. And because of that, just because someone later didn't like it, you get fired. Or maybe even you don't make a decision, you just randomly get assigned to a case. That sort of randomness that chills people from doing their job. And my view is it's intentional. They're trying to chill people and they're trying to send a message that if you come, if you investigate people who are my friends or my allies, you're going to pay a price for it. And it's interesting you talk about the power dynamics because I think what you're saying is real. And as a prosecutor, I always felt it very important to think about that. Think about like, if I'm going to issue a subpoena, if I'm going to investigate this, this is a big thing in this person's life. And being thoughtful about it and following the process to make sure I treat person A the same as I treat person B. But at the same time, we have a situation now where these public servants who have devoted their lives to the craft of doing this the right way and they're not getting any process whatsoever. And I again, my biggest concern is that we're not highlighting that enough. Because if those people can't do their jobs, right, the concern that you have, John, it's exacerbated.

[John Stewart]

Oh, the whole thing becomes politicized.

[Jack Smith]

Politicized and also. Or just fear. Right. I mean, there's so many knock on effects. You have people who like, we should totally open this case, but I might get fired for doing it. I'm not going to do it. Then you have people quitting, right? Because they're like, I can't be a part of this. I don't want to be labeled as someone who is so different than how I was raised as a prosecutor. And for me, the biggest concern is that we have young people who were, you know, when Brian and I were 20 years old and I wanted to be a prosecutor and he wanted to be an agent. I have a concern right now that the people who are that age and are thinking about what they're going to do as public servants, they're like, no way, no way I'm doing this and I'm going to lose my job for nothing. And we will suffer a much greater cost for that than anything else going on. That's the hardest thing. If we, if that. If people are driven away from public service, nonpartisan people who just want to serve. That's the hardest thing to correct for.

[John Stewart]

Well, how can they not? I mean, I want to talk about your case for a second, Jack, and then we'll go back to you, Brian. But when I see the just level of abuse that was leveled at you as, as somebody who was doing that special prosecution case, we can talk a little bit later about some decisions that maybe were questioned or. Or not questioned. But the threats that came down upon you, I would think would be enough to discourage almost anybody, whether it, you know, be somebody within the DOJ that's going to take case or somebody that's being asked to work on that case. It would discourage them. I mean, the President of the United States was calling you a psycho who should be in jail. I. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind would want to take on that kind of potential for abuse.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I. I mean, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the names I'm being called by the president. And for me, I mean, when we talk about, like, overcoming things or facing things, I'm a guy who just did my job. Right. I've been doing it for a long time. I followed the same traditions and I worked with the same sort of people I had all through my career. There's nothing really special about that guy. Like Brian, on the other hand, is a guy who could have went along, could have said, here you go, here's the names, right? Here you go. Fire these people. People like him. And there's.

[Brian Driscoll]

There's others.

[Jack Smith]

Brian's an example, but there's many others stood up, lost something that they built their lives around because they would. They wouldn't do the wrong thing and had to do the right thing. I feel like the more we can celebrate that and use that as a differentiator, the better we'll be.

[John Stewart]

Brian, I thought Jack was the hero here. It turns out you're the hero. I thought actually I was. No, I was going.

[Brian Driscoll]

Jack's the hero.

[John Stewart]

I was going for Jack here as the hero. Turns out Brian's the hero.

[Brian Driscoll]

Jack is too kind. He is absolutely a hero. And Jack, I appreciate you. You know that, brother. I do want to add something to what Jack said before, is where I find peace and hope with those of us who have been either forced into retirement or wrongfully terminated or otherwise. I talk to most, if not all of those people whose careers and their, frankly, their life's purposes were disrupted or interrupted during this period of time. And to a person, each one of them intends to go back and serve. And I'm one of them, obviously. And these are people that were just doing their job, like Jack said. Like, we didn't sign up for praise or awards or chest candy, medals, all this stuff. We signed up to do our job because we believe in it, and we believe in doing the right thing. That doesn't change.

[John Stewart]

Brian, do you have a sense of how many. How many people have been removed because of working on cases that the Trump administration deemed partisan, and how many have left just because they didn't want to be a part of this, and how many that are left there have their work chilled because of what's happened?

[Brian Driscoll]

I don't have a number, but one is too many.

[John Stewart]

Right. But it's significant. You would say there has been a significant drain.

[Brian Driscoll]

Absolutely. With experience as the acting director, I watched my mentors, a lot of whom were my mentors and people who helped raise me in the organization, get forced out. And then people started to be fired just because of the cases they were assigned to. And like I said, they all want to go back. These are veterans, these are agents. They're analysts who were at the top of their game, but also some newer employees who were assigned to these cases that were. That want to go back, be an analyst. I got an email yesterday from a guy who was a new analyst assigned to one of these cases, was fired and hitting me up for guidance on once he does get back in, how to apply to be an agent, because that was his goal. It's not everybody's goal, but it happened to be his. And these people are motivated.

[John Stewart]

It's feeling like a calling. It is a calling and a service.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yes. And that is why, like Jack said, he doesn't spend a lot of time talking about, you know, the. The slings and arrows that. That people like us can. Can be the recipients of. That matters not because we are unafraid. We just want to serve.

[John Stewart]

Brian, I want to ask you a question, too. You were asked specifically about. They basically said to you, you'll be okay as long as you've never donated to a Democrat or voted for Kamala Harris. Is that. Did they ask you that specifically, or is that something you're not allowed to talk about?

[Brian Driscoll]

No, it's. It's documented in the complaint that was asked me specifically prior to going back down to headquarters as the acting deputy director. It was. It was referred to as a vetting interview.

[John Stewart]

Right. And I want to make very clear, the vetting to become an FBI agent is unbelievable. I mean, in terms of they'll interview everybody you've ever met. They'll put you through lie detectors. They'll. They put you through a process of making sure that there is nothing within your background that could be considered controversial or easily blackmailable or any of those other kinds of things to. To do that. Is that the first time in your service you were ever asked about a political affiliation?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yes.

[John Stewart]

And had never been asked before?

[Brian Driscoll]

Never.

[John Stewart]

Jack Smith, same question. Had you ever been asked about your political affiliation before getting a case? Had you ever been asked who you donated to? Has. Has there ever been a question in terms of politics? I'm trying to get to the difference between when you start to remove, everybody can be considered a partisan, depending on where you vote, but not everybody's an ideologue. And I want to get to a little bit of the difference between that. Jack, was there ever a partisan tilt to how you were asked to operate?

[Jack Smith]

Never.

[John Stewart]

Even in the first Trump administration?

[Jack Smith]

Even in the first Trump administration. Look at John. I was working in Nashville as the first assistant, right? And it's the, it's before Trump's elected. Trump gets elected, I become the Acting U.S. attorney. The office did not change. We still did our job. And just to go back to a point you raised earlier, if a new administration comes in and they want to change policy, they want to say, we want to focus on immigration enforcement, we want to focus less on civil rights, we want to do environment, we don't want to do lesser corruption, they get to do that. That is why elections happen. And I tell young people all the time, if you think you want to be a prosecutor, but you only want to work for certain sorts of administrations in certain cases, career prosecutor is the wrong profession for. You shouldn't do it. But at the same time, if you want to do those things, you want to change the policy, that's fine. But you have to follow the law, and you have to follow doing things the right way. You don't investigate the victims of police shootings. Right. You don't try to smear them and call them domestic terrorists. To set a narrative that is so far removed from anything I've experienced, both as a line prosecutor or in leadership positions. It's just never been even anything close to that.

[John Stewart]

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[Brian Driscoll]

I think if it's pretty black and white, if you receive a legal order or if it's in furtherance of a properly legally predicated investigation, then that's the job. If you're asked to cross that line into what is unethical, immoral and illegal, then you have a decision to make. And that that's what I faced as well.

[John Stewart]

But there are judgments associated with this. There are judgments in terms of when to bring a case. You know, there is discretion. And I think you saw it when they brought in Lindsay Halligan. There was cases that career prosecutors felt were not had not risen to the level of being charges being brought.

[Brian Driscoll]

And that that's the decision point. And, and that that is not unilaterally decided like by the FBI. The FBI doesn't make prosecutorial decisions. We work hand in hand with the doj. And then if it makes it to court and then it needs to go through the process.

[John Stewart]

Right. Jack, how, how do you think people should handle that?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, sure. And this, this is something I talk to young people who are thinking of being prosecutors or people who department I talk to him about it all the time. And my view is very similar to Brian's. If you can still do your job, doj, even today, does a lot of good things, a lot of important things, protecting communities around our country, protecting the safety of Americans, protecting our national security. And a lot of people can do their job. Now, it could be in this administration, you're going to get asked to do something that is just wrong, just illegal, just corrupt. And if that happens, your number's up. And it's interesting, the people who I've talked to, who are experienced, serious prosecutors, they know the difference between those things. It's judgment, but it's not hard. You can look at, you know, Letitia James and look at her mortgage fraud situation, and you can then get the facts together. But then ultimately you say, hey, as. As I understand the prosecutors in Virginia did, this is not a case anyone would ever bring. And then you might get fired for it for telling the truth about how a case should be handled. And I think my view is that prosecutors and agents, too, should try to stay and do the right thing. And this isn't a matter, you know, I've heard people say, this isn't a matter of throwing sand in the gears. Just do your job, do what you've done all along. And that doing that makes it harder for them to weaponize the department. Just doing your job. If the rule of law, it doesn't work, the system doesn't hold if the people who enforce the law don't have integrity and character. But if they do, it's much harder to target people. That's why you see a lot of these prosecutions or the attempts to indict senators and congressmen for reciting the Uniform Code of Military justice, they fall apart because a real prosecutors won't do it. And therefore the people they get to do it are incompetent. They don't actually know how to prosecute a case.

[John Stewart]

They're real estate lawyers.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah. They don't have any experience. And I think that's part of what we've seen that I think folks like Brian and I find very frustrating is this idea that you can do something that took us decades to learn how to do well. Oh, yeah, I can just walk in and I can investigate this incredibly complex case, follow department policy, follow the rules, do it the right way. And I think one other thing, the thing that's important to understand, John, it's like a hallmark of this weaponization is what's happening in the courts. I mean, the decisions you're seeing from judges about the positions that DOJ is taking. Corrupt, illegal, improper. I mean, there was a decision recently regarding subpoenas to officials in Minnesota for a sham investigation. The judge found that that was not a legitimate criminal investigation and that it was unlawful. It was meant to retaliate against people. And again, just the narrative, that judge, the judge was appointed by George Bush. That judge was a Scalia clerk. Okay, so this is not radical left lunatics making these determinations. This is the rule of law kind of right in front of us having that battle. And my view is that the most important thing we do now is when we see public servants and we see good people standing up, we support them. Those people need our support. And our support will make a difference whether those people can continue to stand up.

[John Stewart]

Is that the way you feel also within the FBI, Brian?

[Brian Driscoll]

100%. The amount of sacrifice that the people in any agency, but I'll speak for the FBI are making on a daily basis and who are willing to trade all their tomorrows to save your today is immeasurable. They're incredible human beings that are going through a lot, and they go through a lot. They always have, but they continue to every day. And they don't complain about it. They make the sacrifices, whether that's being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for somebody else or to navigate this different environment in which they are working to get the job done, not for themselves, but to protect you and me.

[John Stewart]

Let's talk a little bit about this different environment and in terms of how, you know, Americans faith in our legal system, I think is. Is waning, would be putting it politely. And I want to talk a little bit about the systemic changes that I think have. Have caused that. You know, Jack, you hit on a little bit right there. You said, well, this is a judge that was appointed by Bush and this was in Alito clerk. But think about that. We're so politicized to the point now. I mean, you face this, Jack. There was criticism that you brought the classified documents case down to Florida because there was a chance you might end up in Judge Cannon's court. Judge Cannon is a Trump, I think people would say, not just partisan, but ideologue, and she would make decisions purely based on protecting her person. We've got the point now where we have teams. Judges are on teams. They're on the Democrat team, they're on the Republican team. And you can't expect fair justice if you're on the opposing squad. Is the entire system so politicized that there's, and we'll get into the Supreme Court of it all after this. But what do we do about the fact that we now look to when decisions come down whether or not that judge is an Obama judge, a Trump judge, and we use that as part of justification. Well, that, that was a great decision because a Trump judge went against Trump world or an Obama judge went against the Democrats. You know, what do you do about that?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I think, you know, the first thing is that, that, you know, this judge was appointed by this person, this judge clerk for this person. I think it's a. And I raised it as, it's sort of a response to the claim that they're all political radical people against this particular president. From my point of view, in terms of getting credibility back, not only for the courts, but also for the Department of Justice, I think about it the same way I think about my work as a prosecutor. When I am going into court, I need to be credible with the judges, I need to be credible with juries, I need to be credible with witnesses. How I do that as a prosecutor is I behave with values that we all share. I act with integrity, I tell the truth. I treat people with respect whether they deserve it or not. I show kindness and I show courage if I need to. Those sort of values, those sort of traits, that's the fabric that binds us together. And my view is that we have to lean into that more than ever and that we should be looking for people in positions, leading these institutions or appointing judges who have not just will voice those traits, but have lived those traits.

[John Stewart]

But that's not what the public sees. What the public sees is a judge in Florida that delays the case, that makes rulings that make it impossible for you to file, that changes thing. And then they see a Prosecutor yourself release 100, I don't know, 65 page document about election interference right before the election that they feel is a political move on your part. So the, the tough part is everybody who's within those institutions can say, look, we're, we're working through process and we are doing it in values and morals that we think are fitting to the stature of the organizations that we're in. But the public isn't. That's not their experience with this. Their experience with this is. It is a political game being played out through processes that we normally thought were apolitical.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I think that gets to, that's the next layer. Right. That's like communication. And to me, I was a prosecutor, right. My career, I was a guy, I Spoke in the courtroom, not on the courthouse steps. If I did press conferences, I said the absolute minimum I had to say, and I got back to work. I didn't see that as part of my job. I saw my job as working with people like Brian to actually do the work. I think what we've learned to your point, John, is that there is another component to being a leader in the

[John Stewart]

Justice Department, maybe the largest component.

[Jack Smith]

Well, I would differ with you on that because I don't want to get where the next leaders of the Department of Justice are. Comms people. Right. And they. They don't know anything about prosecuting cases. I just think that people look at the people who are good prosecutors, they are good communicators. They have to win juries over, they have to win judges over. I think in the past, we just haven't taken it as part of our job to have this larger conversation. I mean, for me, you know, I grew up in upstate New York. I grew up outside of Syracuse. I think a lot of folks in Washington don't think that they need to communicate necessarily to those people. We talk to people in Washington. I would love to see future leaders of the Justice Department trying to explain what they're doing to people outside of just the legal community, outside of just Washington, D.C. i think it's hard to be real fair. Like you got a right to a fair trial, right? You can't be talking about. You shouldn't be talking about a case, the specifics of a case while it's pending. But I do think there's more we can do if we all agree that if you don't communicate these things that show integrity, because if you have integrity and you have competence, it doesn't mean much if people don't know that and you can't communicate that.

[John Stewart]

But is it just a. Do you really think it's just a communications problem, Jack? Because, you know, and Brian, I'll ask you this too. You know, the FBI doesn't communicate their methodologies and their things, but I think people look at the way that these institutions. I'll go back to Brian, when you were first there when Trump was going after the two FBI agents during the Russia investigation that he thought were. It was Page and Strock, I think that were had an affair and he was ridiculing them. Is it enough for the FBI to just communicate better what they're doing, or do we need to really look at the totality of a system that's been politicized?

[Brian Driscoll]

I think there's value in looking at the totality. But you can't look at the totality without a clear and depth of understanding of the process. And I think the FBI has an interesting history of how they communicate those processes when they can, and they can't always. But I think to Jack's point, you can rarely, in my experience, gain and earn trust and credibility through chest beating and being the loudest voice in the room and being the voice when we were living in these 18 inches between our phones and our faces with just clicks and content. It requires leadership with grace and poise and practice with clear messaging of what I can tell you what I can't and why, and then just hope for trust.

[John Stewart]

But we don't get. I don't think we. I don't think we get it. Like, I'll give you two examples. First is January 6th. So the big story on the right is January six actually wasn't what we all saw that it was. It was an FBI op. There was a guy who was an FBI plant and he urged people to go in there, and there were 600 FBI agents that were there that day, and they're the ones that stirred the pot. And, and they did all that. And so our entire understanding of this was actually the feds instigating an insurrection on January 6th. And that's their, that's their storyline as they're going to get through. And I'll give you the flip side of that on, on the left, which is James Comey, who was the head of IT at the time, announcing that he was going to do an investigation or reopen an investigation into Hillary Clinton, you know, a month before the election. And that's what sunk her chances. You know, those are the narratives that you're fighting. And I have not heard, you know, Comey has come out and said a few things about. Well, I might not have done that, but I thought it was important. You know, he's explained certain things. The FBI hasn't really talked that much about what those, who those agents were, what they were doing there or any of those other situations.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, listen, what I'll say about that is that if the FBI expended its resources chasing down or debunking every conspiracy theory, they would be spending much less time focusing on national security and mitigating serious crime.

[John Stewart]

Just some, though, raised to the level that need to be. That need to be addressed more forcefully.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, I think. And that comes with close and continuing communication with the public in a responsible manner. And I think that could, that could fix a lot of the things that you're addressing and honestly, when you're speaking about Director Comey and the others say I can't and won't speak for them.

[John Stewart]

Right.

[Brian Driscoll]

And they have their choices to make on their. Not only their when and how they communicate, but the style in which they do so. And they're surrounded by very smart people.

[John Stewart]

How hard is it now when the director of the FBI, Cash Patel, is one of the people who propagated the January 6th theory that now you have somebody leading the FBI who was a proponent of that conspiracy, yet, you know, there was a guy, Ray up, you know, they've never brought charges against any of those people. They've never actually given the information out there. They've never released certain files. You know, how do we retain faith in an institution that in some respects won't defend itself forcefully or in this particular case is being led by someone who was one of the leading proponents that we shouldn't trust this organization?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah. So I understand that a fish stinks from the head kind of concept.

[John Stewart]

So I've heard that.

[Brian Driscoll]

However, you know, I was only the head of that fish for a very short amount of time. However, I spent a lot of time with the people that and, and, and shared risk of our lives with the people that actually work that organization. Like I said, 38, 000 at full strength. There's one guy named as the director right now. I think people need to trust that those people, they're not appointees. They are civil servants. They've given up a lot to be able to serve in their capacities. They've worked their asses off to do it and their families have given up a lot. And that's where I find trust in them because I was one of them and I was with them and I'll do anything for them. Now, as far as the current director is concerned, on his first night after he. He was confirmed, he came to the office and I had a few minutes with him and I made him a promise in that moment, not knowing how long I had left there and not, you know, I didn't have a crystal ball. I had some, some feelings about it. But I promised him that I would do everything in my power and whatever influence I had to make him the best director we've ever had, because we need him to be. And if he fails, we fail. That has not changed. I. Despite what people want to assign to me as far as my opinions and thoughts, my opinions are unproductive. I hope and root that he will be better every day. I hope that those in leadership Positions, not just in the FBI, but everywhere else that serves our country, understands that having authority and being an authority are not the same thing. And surround yourself with people that are smarter and better and more experienced and we'll all be better off for it.

[John Stewart]

And how does that, does that dysfunction present itself clearly within the organization? Chain of command, morale, eye on the prize in terms of, or is there literally like the majority of the FBI is focused on those day to day tasks of protecting Americans and making sure these threats don't go. And there is a small kind of cadre, a kind of adjacent office that is more focused on these partisan endeavors.

[Brian Driscoll]

Well, let me caveat this with it. I'm out in these streets just like you guys, so I'm not in there. But, but what you said is accurate. The majority of the people there are

[John Stewart]

doing their job and the priorities, they might shift to drug interdiction or they might shift to trafficking or something else, but they're, they're still focused on the day to day task at hand and the processes that were put in place to protect those tests.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yes. And if there are priorities or you know, surges driven by the leadership, then, you know, portions of the FBI will surge to that.

[John Stewart]

Well, like when they say we've, we're now moving a bunch of FBI agents to go to Atlanta and, and they're going to go, and they're going to raid election offices and they're going to do all those things. And, and by all accounts they're moving a lot of manpower to do that. How are we supposed to have faith in that organization anymore when that's so clearly a partisan endeavor, an ideological endeavor?

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, listen, I'm not going to be cute about it. That is troubling to watch from the outside. I don't know what's going into that, those decision matrix that are driving those investigations. So I won't speak to, you know, the credibility of them. That said, like I will go back to what I said before. If it is legal, if it's predicated, if all the things have been done properly, then, then, you know, even if,

[John Stewart]

look, even if just by the very nature of doing it, that puts a chilling effect on the electoral process in that area. The people that work there, you know, we saw the hell that they put two election workers through when they were looking there. You know, these are the things that, that I think very much undermine that credibility that you guys are talking about and the story that you guys are talking about in terms of the individuals and the sacrifices they're making to Protect us.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah. I mean, and I think what's most vexing on top of that is not just how the resources are being allocated and what they're being allocated to, but what's getting dropped, you know, what kind of actual threats are being prioritized or deprioritized when that's happening, we have a very heightened national security threat right now. Crime is going down. Speaking globally or nationally, which is great. I'm not going to sit here and be ignorant enough to say like everything that these people are doing is bad. That's just the case. And it's irresponsible to say that. However, from what I worked when I was in the Bureau with Jack, working in parallel, intersecting sometimes through people we share as friends and colleagues, there are threats that we could use more resources pointed at, especially with the global environment and what's happening all over the world right now. Like terrorism didn't stop.

[John Stewart]

Right. And those threats don't stop. Jack, I want to ask you about, you know, when doj, when you've got the doj, is headed up by the President's personal lawyer. But I want to talk about other structural things. DOJ I always look at as you're fighting corruption, right? It's influence peddling bribes, the types of white collar crime that is difficult to get your arms around and handle. But it, it seems as though the Supreme Court has made that job. Forget about Trump and politicizing these things. It seems as though corruption as we typically understood it, has been redefined by the Supreme Court over the last 15 years. And I want to know how that affects your ability to do the job that the DOJ is supposed to be doing. So just as an example, in the McDonald case, I. Did you. Did you work on the McDonald case in Virginia?

[Jack Smith]

I did. I was one of the supervisors of that case, yes.

[John Stewart]

Okay, so that's a case where a guy is paid money and gifts and bribes to give access. Right. You guys bring a case against him, he gets convicted. The Supreme Court says, actually it's not bribery if it's just for access. You know, there were other cases. I've got some written down. The Snyder case, which I thought was a fascinating one. Bribes that are given after you do the quid pro quo are considered gratuities and therefore can't be prosecuted as bribes. You have the absolute immunity case for Trump. You have the Skilling case, which is about conflict of interest or self dealing at every turn. The Supreme Court is redefining what public corruption is to the point where I don't even know how you would prosecute public corruption unless someone is holding a giant bag that has a dollar sign on it, and on it it says for helping me with that thing.

[Jack Smith]

Well, John, it's actually even more dire than you lay out.

[John Stewart]

It can't be more dire than that, Jack.

[Jack Smith]

But before we get to the Supreme Court, and I'll come back to that, we're in a world right now, John, where if there is corruption at the highest levels of our government, there is nobody to look at it. Nobody. Congress is not going to look at it. The DOJ is not going to look at it. There's not going to be any outside prosecutor to look at it. And so before we even get to bringing a case, there's no one who would be allowed to investigate it. I do think you're right when you

[John Stewart]

say nobody is allowed to investigate it. How do you mean?

[Jack Smith]

Well, you know, can, you can imagine if there was, you know, take a look at the, the signal gate thing, right? With the, you know, sharing battle plans,

[John Stewart]

classified information over a.

[Jack Smith]

Right.

[John Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jack Smith]

And the Attorney general at the time, Attorney General Bondi, immediately, without any facts, said there's not going to be an investigation comes out later from the inspector general that in fact it was classified information and endangered the lives of. Of service members. If that's not being investigated, you know, we don't have to worry about what the Supreme Court says because we're not going to get to court and have a case.

[John Stewart]

But they are investigating, Renee. Good. I mean, they are investigating. They're just, it seems upside down to some extent.

[Jack Smith]

Right. And again, that, my point is that that judgment to investigate real corruption and not investigate shooting victims, family members, you need good people in these roles. You know, just again, in terms of, as we go forward, I hear a lot of people talk about, you know, how are we going to fix the FBI? How are we going to fix the Department of Justice? And like the idea I've heard someone say, you know, the next director of the FBI really needs to have smart people around them who really know the bureau and how it works. People like Brian Driscoll. My response to that is, my response is, how about we just have one of those people run the FBI, someone who actually knows it. Not a politician, not a person with a political stake in the game, but people who actually have done the work since they were young people. How about that? And you know, I agree with you, John, that winning back credibility is not going to be easy. But I don't think we shouldn't try to do It. And again, I think that diving into that, my life, when I interact with people in the world, I hear people all the time who want to go back to having normal people make these decisions.

[John Stewart]

Oh, dear God. People are exhausted. They're absolutely exhausted.

[Jack Smith]

And so the way I think of it is we have the people who work in the Justice Department and in the FBI, the everyday line, prosecutors and agents, which Brian and I spent most of our career doing. People know their story. They're gonna. They're gonna like that. They're gonna respect it. I mean, just go back real quick, John. On the issue of communication and the issue of January 6, there is a inspector general's report that exists that debunks everything you said about, like, the FBI setting this up. It's in detail. And if you take the time to read the 100 whatever odd pages it is, no person could come away and think that's what happened. The problem, nobody's read it, nobody knows about it. Nobody took it as their job to go out to the public and say, hey, this is a big deal. People are going to believe this narrative unless I explain this to folks. And so that's what I say about leaders on issues like that. That can cause huge distrust. Taking that on is part of the job. I certainly didn't do it in the DOJ before, but I think that's the thing we need to change going forward.

[John Stewart]

Do you ever look at your phone bill? Have you ever done that? Have you ever looked at your phone bill? I've looked at my phone bill. I think it's designed to not be able to understand your phone bill. All the, the writing and the things and the gimmicks. I want to curse, to be honest with you. I'm not going to do it. I generally want to curse, but I'm not going to do it about this because there's a solution to this nonsense. Mint. You know what I'm talking about? MIN Mobile Wireless plan. No gimmick. High speed data, reliable coverage on the T Mobile 5G network. You get rid of your overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. You can sign up online. You know me, I'm terminally online. I live my life on the. On the web. Do they still call it the Web? My children literally think I'm a caveman, like I'm Fred Flintstone, that I'm just waiting for a car that has no floorboards and I'm just going to run it with my feet. But the point isn't what my children think of me. What's Important is what you think of your of your wireless service. To get your new wireless Plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com tws that's mint mobile.com tws Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com tws that'S it. There's no catch. Upfront payments of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com I really hope they speed that up. How do we change when the Supreme Court has made the bar for public corruption so high? Look, special counsels in general were appointed because it all felt like it was beyond, it was a problem beyond the scope of our standard system. So you had the Watergate special prosecutor, you had Iran Contra, was a special prosecutor. And, and, and they looked into it and they found evidence of, of criminal wrongdoing in the case of Watergate brought down a president. Interesting that JD Vance said Watergate today would be a 12 hour story and nothing would happen. And I don't disagree with that. Not because it's not an egregious abuse of power, but because the levers of accountability that we have seemed diminished. And I wonder if special, you know, special counsels played a role in that. And I want your opinion on that. You know, if you think about, let's look at the, the last ones you had. The Mueller case with Russia had a lot of convictions, but very few of them were about election year interference. It was mostly obstruction or perjury or those things we had. I guess the next one was the classified documents case. Then they had the Biden documents case. It looked like he also had classified documents. Then they had a Hunter Biden special counsel where we finally got him on weapons charges. You know, Whitewater was another one where the special counsel's also I guess at fault in some ways because they never really got to the crux of what they were investigating. They were only able to spring process traps and that's how they ended up catching a few low level fish. So if, if that's not there, what levers of accountability are we left with? And, and I, you know, I know that's a lot to answer, but I just, I wanted your opinion on that.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, sure. So I, I think of it this way. You've Got a situation, a highly sensitive situation with high level people in the government. It could be my case, it could be a rank contra, it could be Watergate, any of the ones you talked about. You've got three options. Option one is you say this is too sensitive. We're not going to really look into it. You know, corruption at the highest level of government, it doesn't happen very often and the executive needs a lot of power to do their job. So we're really not going to even go down that road. There are people who take that position. On the other end, you say, you know what, the Justice Department, run by a political appointee of the current president, can totally do it and people will find it credible because the Justice Department does this every day and we don't have to do anything special. The middle ground is to appoint somebody outside the government. And how much discretion and power that person has depends on whether you're talking about the independent counsel statute, which was arrant contra, or the special counsel regulations that I worked under and the balances. You want independence so that person can make a call and call, balls and strikes as they are. But you also need accountability. Right. Because you don't want to have a. And I think that was the concern with the independent counsel statute is some felt that the independent counsel was accountable to no one and could go on forever.

[John Stewart]

That could catch a lot of people in situations where they don't have the resources. Look, I'm no fan of General Flynn, but it's very different for Donald Trump to have to defend himself. I mean, that guy had to like sell his house. You know, when somebody is in the crosshairs, whether it's a Papadopoulos or a, a Carter Page or a, you know, Hunter Biden has resources, but, you know, Letitia James now, you know, these people don't have the resources to go up against it. Clearly, abuses have been taking place.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah. And I, I guess one, one thing I would just add to the, to that into the framework is, is how we judge it. Right. Like, I think when you're dealing with these situations, these complex, difficult, hard to prove situations, the idea that anybody's going to do that job and, and you're going to get sort of unanimous public agreement that that's a fabulous job and we all agree with the outcome, that's just not happening.

[John Stewart]

No, that's a good point. Yeah.

[Jack Smith]

And, and so I think what we need to do, and my view is in those situations, you hew to doing things the right way, the way they've been done in the Justice Department for generations, at least since Watergate. That is a credibility enhancer. I think again, communicating how you're doing that is going to be helpful, but you're never going to get 100% approval and you're never going to get an outcome that everybody agrees with. Sometimes the outcomes are more complicated than can be explained in a short narrative. I feel like the job of a prosecutor is not achieving a particular outcomes. How many convictions you got, how many people were charged, that sort of thing. It's doing it the right way. You do it the right way and you let the chips fall where they're going to fall. Not every profession's like that. And I think the thing that's from the perspective I have, I think Brian might share this is the way the public judges. A lot of the criminal justice system is outcome based and good prosecutors don't do that. So our internal metric for doing the job the right way is one of like I did things the way they're supposed to be done. Of course if someone, I think someone's guilty, I want to get a conviction and I'm going to try to do that. But it's much more important to me that I do it the right way than I get a particular outcome. And I would never want to have a prosecutor who would cut corners because he wants the public adulation and support because he got an outcome a lot of people wanted. And so I guess I long way to say that is like there's sort of ceilings on how much you can have Everybody really happy with the outcome of these things. They're built to be difficult from the start.

[John Stewart]

Well, I'm, I'm not even talking about their happiness with it. I'm more talking about the broader sense of accountability that doesn't seem, look, yeah, in my mind the macro view of this. And Brian, I think I'd like to get your opinion on this. January 6th was a Rubicon for me in terms of democratic system being subverted. You know, we can always. The Supreme Court can say the President is basically has absolute immunity and you can't find anything and basically makes him beyond the scope of the law if he's, you know, doing the duties of his office. But January 6th was the, the, the crossing the line that I thought this is a person that needs to be held to account for trying to subvert. You know, it's peaceful transfer of power. That's the line we can all. There's different corruptions within it. But if you won't leave when you're supposed to leave. That's when we turn from a democracy into an autocracy. Like, that's the dividing line. Black and white. Our inability to hold that president to account through a political process. Impeachment, that was clearly partisan. People that said, yeah, that was egregious and he should never hold office again, still voted not to impeach because they said, well, he's leaving anyway. Little did they know. So the political process proved itself to be not up to the task. The legal process, I thought, also proved itself not to be up to the task. It took Merrick Garland, I don't know, years before he even asked you to do the investigation. I don't know why I. I don't know if you have an opinion on that, Jack.

[Jack Smith]

Oh, listen, I. My view of my work. I got appointed to do a job, and I did it. When I interacted with Merrick Garland, he's not a guy who put the finger on the scale. He didn't try to push me to do it Right. Bring a case, not bring a case. My Interact.

[John Stewart]

But he didn't bring it for years. He didn't even ask you.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, I mean, I got appointed. When I got appointed. And like, my. I guess. I guess my point on that, John, is that I understand that that's a narrative that people want to talk about is like, you know, why didn't he move faster? That sort of thing. Right. I feel like from my perspective, having been someone who's done this job for a long time, I've. And cares a lot about where the department goes going forward. Cares a lot about the people who work there. I'm much more interested in finding people who are examples of courageous people who are standing up, who are making sacrifices. If we're looking, you know, if you're. If you're on a sports team and you're trying to do well. Right. You look for ways that you can succeed. You look for plays that work. I want to see people and I want to raise people up who are. Could be part of the solution rather than kind of looking backward.

[John Stewart]

And I completely agree with that. I'm talking more about sort of how the system is perceived, even with those good people in it. So Merrick Garland takes two to three years to do it. I'm talking about how the. The legal process seemed to not be able to hold him to account for what I thought is the most egregious moment in my lifetime in American history. Like, makes Watergate look like chump change. So he holds off on that. Then the system, unable to get at him through that legal methodology. Seemed like. And you can push back on this. Seemed like it went after Trump with every available methodology they could think of. Leticia James prosecutes him for, I think, his business and mortgage dealings. Alvin Bragg prosecutes him for the Stormy Daniels payments. The government goes after classified documents, which is something that I think most people were like, I never even heard. I didn't even know that was a thing. I always assumed, you know, because in this country, our classification system is also broken. It looked like, to fair appearances, that the system did turn its eye to getting this guy any way they could. And so if the political process failed us and the legal process seemed to have failed us, I think that's the question of how do we rebuild trust in that system, even though it's staffed with really good people. Brian, you were going to say something.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, no, I'm going to take Jack off the hook for a second, please. I'm not saying that you're saying this, however. Yeah, I think it's important for people to know that we didn't do nothing. They. We investigated the people who perpetrated the January 6th crimes.

[John Stewart]

That's right.

[Brian Driscoll]

We might, myself, personally, were part of arrest teams that took off some of the most violent and dangerous offenders affiliated with some very violent groups. And these things, they do take time. I can't speak to the decision process of AG Garland at the time and any delays and this, that and the other thing. But the DOJ didn't sit on our hands either. We were hustling. We were working to hold the criminals accountable and did now, going all the way over to potus. I can't speak for that, but I felt like Jack needed some help, so.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah.

[Brian Driscoll]

You all right, Jack?

[John Stewart]

Listen, I think Jack will be fine. Am I being unfair in some saying that to my mind? And I. Again, I'm not talking about the guys who, like you say, you know, that stormed the Capitol and got arrested and were given sentences like. And we're held to account. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the ring leaders and the people that pardoned those same people and were never held to account for anything either, through our political means? Our only political means is impeachment. Our only legal means is through the. The doj. So am I being unfair to say that those systems were unable to operate and at this point have been through, whether it's the Supreme Court or whether it's through the ability of Donald Trump and. And his allies to delay? Have we failed?

[Jack Smith]

Yeah. I mean, John, I would say first, you know, on the political part.

[John Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jack Smith]

You're probably talking to the wrong guys for that. We're criminal investigators who work on criminal cases.

[John Stewart]

I just want your opinions. I know that I'm not.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah, yeah. So on, on the, on the other part, in terms of the cases against Trump, I can speak most directly to ours. And when I took that job, I would have been perfectly happy if the facts in law didn't, didn't justify it to not bring those cases. And I'm sure if the facts were different, John, I'm sure a lot of the people who think I'm great would not think I'm so great. And some of the people who think I'm bad would think I'm really nice. The truth is very good point. Yeah. When you're a prosecutor. Right. You all that sort of things in terms of perceptions and people feeling this way in this election, that is noise. That is things that I didn't consider when I'm doing my job. And you know, I brought those cases and I moved him forward because I thought I could prove him in court and I thought I'd went on appeal. That's the same. We don't change the metric once it's someone who's a high profile case. And again, I would just to juxtapose what weaponization is. Right. I've been doing this for three decades. I'm not a political operative who was brought in from outside because they couldn't get a line prosecutor to do it. People didn't resign because I demanded that they do things that run so counter to the traditions of the department. I mean, just think about today, John, if you had a, an allegation of corruption. Can you imagine this administration bringing in someone like me who's got no political allegiance? Can you imagine that happening?

[John Stewart]

No.

[Jack Smith]

And that's why, you know, we come back to this issue of process.

[John Stewart]

I can't imagine, by the way, them even prosecuting it. I mean, he literally was bragging yesterday that he was making sure they weren't going to investigate cryptocurrency, corruption. I mean, they're, they're bragging about no longer investigating white collar crime.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah. And again, that's why I go back to this issue of like how we talk about it. Because when you talk about, John, like the fact that, you know, people don't believe this and people don't trust that it's not in a vacuum. Right. There are people with very powerful megaphones using repetitive messages over and over again that have no factual basis. But they get out there and they become part of the public discussion. The history before these last couple years is prosecutors just sat on their hands and let that be said. And we didn't worry about that. I think the credibility issues you're talking about are because one side was telling a story divorced from the facts and the other side wasn't telling a story. I think if you lean into the facts, the cases we do, I could justify them in court and I could justify them publicly. I think going forward, that is the recipe. That and having the people who are telling the stories be from the rank and file and be people who've lived the values that they're asking the teams to follow.

[John Stewart]

No. And, Brian, I'm assuming you feel the same way about within the FBI because what it feels like is you now have an organization that is generally built apolitically, built through merit, built through whatever methodologies they think gives them the best chance to get the best agents and the most selfless people being utilized and weaponized by partisans and with very little recourse, I would assume.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah. And I am 100% no surprise here, aligned with what Jack just said it's going to take.

[John Stewart]

You make a formidable team. The two of you.

[Brian Driscoll]

Appreciate that. Jack's the on the top.

[Jack Smith]

So Robin, Batman.

[John Stewart]

All right, fair enough.

[Brian Driscoll]

How dare you, sir. I don't look that great in tights. So, again, like what Jack said, it's going to take people from the rank and file who cannot speak for themselves publicly. Not allowed to. But people like Jack and I. And I don't want to put words in Jack's mouth or speak for him, but I can speak for myself when I say like I am, have been and continue to seek purpose to fill the purpose that was taken from me. Part of how I'm fulfilling that purpose is trying to be that responsible voice. I'm not anointed by the men and women of the FBI to speak on their behalf. However, I can offer a perspective that most don't hear. And like I said before, like demystifying some of the thought processes, some of the experiences we've been through and some of the ways things get done. It's a responsibility. And I think all of that noise, all of the dynamic opinions regarding Jack and I talked about this the other day. We're like Joe Fridays. Just the facts. That was our career. It was not about credit. It was not about getting the awards. It's about the facts doing the job because it's what we signed up for. And now we can represent Hopefully. But it's a no fail task. When Jack and I speak, we cannot fail. We cannot allow our words to be twisted because we speak and stand for something bigger than just ourselves because that's the part of the organization we craved to be a part of. And we're proud to be a part of something larger than us. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to do this kind of type of stuff. No offense. Thank you so much for having us.

[John Stewart]

By the way. I'm deeply uncomfortable as well doing this. I have been for years. 30 years.

[Brian Driscoll]

Yeah, I know I would. I told this to my teammates when I was in that period of time where I was the acting director. There is nothing I wanted more when that period was over than to just disappear into anonymity and continue putting points on the board. On behalf of the organization, on behalf of the American people. Now, I understand that I can be and put myself under a level of pressure to do things like this. But to me, pressure is a privilege because it means something is expected of me. Even if I'm the only one that might expect it of myself.

[John Stewart]

Right. It's finding purpose. Even after you've been sort of let go from the place where you found that grounding and you found that relevance.

[Brian Driscoll]

Because I believe in them. I believe in the organizations. I believe in the American people. I had an experience last week that, that reinforced it in a very real way. I told Jack, I, I, I ride my motorcycle to work. Save money on the easy pass.

[John Stewart]

How much cooler than me can you be? This is really now, it's just now you're just taunting me.

[Brian Driscoll]

I promise.

[John Stewart]

Well, I ride my electric bike sometimes to get the mail. So don't think you and I aren't the same because we're the same.

[Brian Driscoll]

You're exponentially better in every way.

[John Stewart]

But.

[Brian Driscoll]

So I was riding to work and I was going the speed limit. I promise. It was 50 miles an hour. Two way lane or two way street. Hit a deer. I had no time, nowhere to go. And so at 50 miles an hour, I took a short flight. No longer slide and tumble.

[John Stewart]

Wow.

[Brian Driscoll]

Bike is fine. Importantly for me, my mindset.

[John Stewart]

All right. Deer is important to me.

[Brian Driscoll]

I don't. It surprisingly ran off. I never saw it again. I will find it. All right, so. But what happened next? After I realized that I was okay, I stood up and traffic stopped on sorry on both sides of the street and everybody emptied those cars. It was rush hour in the morning. The first person to me was an African American female in her 50s, let's say second person, young blonde woman in scrubs. The third, fourth, fifth people were in the car that would have killed me if I went into oncoming traffic filled with Hispanic laborers. None of them asked who I voted for, like what I, you know, my sexual orientation, my religion. They didn't even ask my name. All they saw was a dude in America who needed help. And they helped me. And that in that moment and every moment in the last week and a half has kind of cleared the fog for me as far as all of the things I consume responsibly. And I think it is on those consumers, it's on the communicators as well in the organizations you talked about and it's on us. But it's also on the consumers to be responsible and don't just believe the first headline that you see, but read diversely, broadly and, and don't just get sucked in to what the algorithm is

[John Stewart]

telling you how to think, brother. Preach, preach. I'm telling you, I feel bad. It's, listen, it's, it's very easy to have your perspective skewed and it's an important remembrance there. And I think that's. And listen, I appreciate both your guys time so much for this and I think a, probably a great way to end is, is in that sense of. So how do we get back to that without sort of the idea of, you know, just believing in the goodness of us. But do you have ideas on how we can reclaim the accountability so necessary for this system to function properly and not be co opted by bad actors or, or partisan actors? You know, people will say like, well, the real elections are the real accountability. That's ultimately where it all ends up. But I'm watching our electoral process be co opted now through partisan measures where even that the thumb is being put on that scale in, in very bad ways. Are there, do you have ideas about beyond trusting the integrity of the rank and file where we can start to bring a little more accountability to the system? I'll ask you, Jack.

[Jack Smith]

Well, in terms of the Justice Department and I think the Bureau as well, I think the one thing we can say with certainty is when there's been more politics it's been bad and when there's been less politics, it's been good. And so I think a thing that we should be looked at is whether there's ways you can not just get the Justice Department back to what it was when I worked there. But are there ways we can make it better? You know, John, after Watergate there was a bunch of reforms that made our Government better?

[John Stewart]

Yep.

[Jack Smith]

In a bunch of different ways.

[John Stewart]

Very much so.

[Jack Smith]

And. And it was a dark time after Watergate. Right. And people took that darkness and the pain they were feeling and the, you know, negative outlook for the future, and they turned it into things that made our country better for a good long time. We have an opportunity to do that right now. I think getting people. There are so many people out there who feel alone and feel isolated and feel like nobody is standing up for them or speaking for them or exhibiting the values that we're talking about. I think that's a foundation and I think you start with that and then the Justice Department, of all the things that the government does, to me, is the one thing where politics can't have a role. We have to find reforms where it makes it harder and harder to do what's happening right now.

[John Stewart]

Brian? Yeah.

[Brian Driscoll]

Jack is so much more articulate.

[John Stewart]

Look, come on.

[Brian Driscoll]

I mean, what he said. No, no. I think it comes down to not taking trust for granted. People with credibility and real experience, maybe a little bit of scar tissue, but don't have an agenda that are ready to serve and bring trust into the institutions. But I also think that John Q. Citizen, Jan Q. Citizen, should be fluent in their rights and like I said, be unafraid to exercise them in a safe manner with no violence, but just be unafraid.

[John Stewart]

And I think it's probably going to come down to that is, you know, you said it earlier, courage and the courage of individuals. And Jack, when you talked about the reforms after Watergate, it struck me so much of that was rebalancing the branches of government. And it does feel like we're moving, you know, this idea of a unitary executive and a president as much more forceful as a king. You know, until that changes, it's very difficult to rebalance this because now we are going to be much more so. And DOJ being, you know, under that auspice, it's going to be much more difficult to do it until we rebalance the branches again. And it's. Right now it's, it feels like we're in an outsized pre Watergate mindset.

[Jack Smith]

Yeah. I mean, I, I would say one thing about that is that when you think about, like, how change comes about, like you look at the times in our history, right, where something really bad happened and we got better, whether it's abolishing slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights movement. Right. They. There were moments when no one knew if what they were going to do was going to make a difference, and they did it anyways, right. You don't think about the likelihood of success. You just think, I'm going to be on the bright side of history. I'm going to behave in a way that's going to make my kids proud, my parents proud, and you just do that and you don't worry about consequences. I think in terms of a mindset for our society, 99% of the time, I think most people know the right thing to do. They really do. The problem becomes when they factor in the consequences for doing the right thing, because then people, if the consequences are too high, they start rationalizing ways where they don't quite have to do that, maybe do something short of that. As Brian said, if we start taking a mindset of, it's our country, we own the problems, if you want a solution, you got to be a part of it. I feel like that happens. And if that becomes our national dialogue and integrity is a more central part of it, some of the things you're talking about, we can elect people who will not do those sort of things. I mean, I have a big concern. I don't want to have a situation where we've had these abuses and that becomes a new normal for any party.

[John Stewart]

Right.

[Jack Smith]

And we've seen that other times.

[John Stewart]

And the key to remember is it doesn't have to that that it is, like you say, correct, that action against this corruption is, is necessary and the courage to take action against that corruption is all of our responsibilities.

[Jack Smith]

Absolutely.

[John Stewart]

Well, I can't think of three bigger heroes than the three of us. All right, just you two. Damn it. Jack Smith, former special counsel. Brian Driscoll, former FBI agent who in 2025 was the acting director of the FBI. Thank you so much for, for spending the time and pointing out this. The great stories of the integrity of the people in the rank and file of, of law enforcement and of our Department of Justice and, and all those things. We, we have to keep highlighting the good work by the good people and those that continue to stand up against corruption in all of its forms. And so I appreciate you both being here for that.

[Brian Driscoll]

Thank you, sir.

[Jack Smith]

Thanks for having us, John.

[Brian Driscoll]

Appreciate you.

[Jack Smith]

Really appreciate it.

[John Stewart]

Do you ever look at your phone bill? Have you ever done that? Have you ever looked at your phone bill? I've looked at my phone bill. I think it's designed to not be able to understand your phone bill. All the, the writing and the things and the gimmicks. I want to curse, to be honest with you. I'm not going to do it. I generally Want to curse. But I'm not going to do it about this. Because there's a solution to this nonsense. Mint. You know what I'm talking about. Min Mobile wireless plan. No gimmick. High speed data, reliable coverage on the T Mobile 5G network. You get rid of your overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. You can sign up online. You know me, I'm terminally online. I live my life on the. On the web. Do they still call it the web? My children literally think I'm a caveman. Like I'm Fred Flintstone. That I'm just waiting for a car that has no floorboards and I'm just going to run it with my feet. But the point isn't what my children think of me. What's important is what you think of your. Of your wireless service. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com tws that's mintmobile.com tws cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com tws that'S IT. There's no catch. Upfront payments of 45 for three months, $90 for six months or 180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable. Device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mint mobile.com I really hope they speed that up. Those guys have balls. You know, can I say something? Is when I'm hanging out with guys like that, I'm literally like, so you guys want to do shots? What do you want to do? Want to go to Giants game? What do you want to do?

[Producer/Host Assistant]

We're going to hang out, right?

[John Stewart]

We're going to hang out, right? Guys, like, it's so like you're overwhelmed by manly madness.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. That was also. That was a three, like New York, New Jersey, tri state area accents that I was hearing too.

[John Stewart]

That's terrible. I wouldn't. That, you know what? That should have been the whole conversation. You believe these two guys at the doj. But you know, it is a little bit like, you know, the Jimmy Cagney movies were like, one brother's a priest, the other's a gangster. Like they're, they're the brother that like went into law enforcement. Yeah. My brother on the street, yeah, he's in trouble all the time. But I went the other way. But I, I honestly, like, I can't imagine they keep talking about it like Trying to divorce themselves from the madness. But the madness, the circus, is all that we experience from them. And it's incredible. Like, there's a certain Zen. Like, they have, I guess, kind of accepted. They've accepted the storm, and there's, like, a weird Zen about them.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. I think it's almost maybe. I don't know. I'm sort of thinking out loud, but, like, they really harp so much on how important process is in their work, and I almost think it's, like, hard to then remove themselves from just like, well, this is how we do things, you know, this is. We just keep putting one foot in front of the other. We just keep keeping our eye on the ball.

[John Stewart]

Well, I also think, you know, it. He got to it a little bit at the end, which is like, they live in a world of standards, evidentiary standards, and the Trump administration lives in a world of, you know, hyperbole and so. And hyper. The world of hyperbole never survives its contact with the world of standards. No. And so I think that's. It really, is that strange dichotomy. I think they're more comfortable in that world of, like, well, you can't really just make shit up. You have to prove it.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. We're gonna actually have to then put this in front of a judge and a jury and actually have to prove our case. Whereas the Trump administration can just say, surely you can all agree with us that somebody took a razor blade to the reflecting pool. Because I feel that way.

[John Stewart]

And stole 13,000 votes.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[John Stewart]

And there were 500,000 people on the mall watching the speech and. Just nonsense.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. And what's your evidence? You.

[John Stewart]

Right, you. You're dumb. That's a terrible question.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. Next question.

[John Stewart]

All right. Well, I'm definitely. I've got to make sure I've. I've got a big motorcycle ride planned.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

I was actually. I was reminded when he was saying that when I was looking into Jack Smith, he took the role as special prosecutor while he was recovering from a bike accident in the Netherlands. And they were concerned that him sort of agreeing to. Would be an issue that he was on painkillers. So he went, like, cold turkey for several days in order to. I mean, like, integrity is so important to these people.

[Brian Driscoll]

Oh, my God.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. I mean, I was just thinking about that during. When he was talking about the bike accident.

[John Stewart]

I love to also like that. That's crazy. Jack Smith, like. Yeah, it's deranged Jack Smith. And he's like, you know, for me, it's really about process. Like, he's like the Bob Ross of law enforcement. He's like, I take a little bit of white, a little bit of blue.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

I bike through the Netherlands.

[John Stewart]

What is his morning meditation?

[Producer/Host Assistant]

I need to know it. He needs to drop it.

[John Stewart]

No question. What do the kids want? Brittany. After our week off, John, do you

[Producer/Host Assistant]

think Trump is happy?

[John Stewart]

Oh, boy, that's. You know, I never considered that. Brittany, I. Poor. Poor little billionaire president getting richer by the minute. Poor, sweet, little. I think he is animated by vengeance. And so, paradoxically, yes, I think he is happy that his body is a bioproduction facility. Whereas you and I live aerobically, he lives anaerobically, and therefore is happy in his oxygenless world.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah, but, like, even just coming off of this weekend, like, that wasn't a success. He. He's happy by how this weekend went for him. He's happy with all of his renovations.

[John Stewart]

Do you. Do you believe that that is how he's interpreting the weekend? He put on the greatest.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[John Stewart]

American Fair ever since the Expo. Since the World Expo in, like, 19. Whatever.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Meet me in St. Louis. Yeah, right. He. He put that. He posted that photo where it's, like, deranged. It's, you know, like, millions of people and, like, signs that say Trump. Like, it's so. And I honestly. It's like, is there a distinction between, like, believing your own lies? And just, like, I think he. I don't know if he believes him or if it even matters to him. Like, it's enough to have that photo, I guess. Even though it's completely made up. I don't know. It's pretty sick, I think.

[John Stewart]

When you say, is he happy? Is he the center of attention?

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[John Stewart]

Then he's happy.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

That's it.

[John Stewart]

Because he is animated only by our eyes and our focus and our attention. He is the original algorithm. He drives us to his embrace, and we all revolve. Or he is the sun and we are but the stars. He. It's Romeo and Juliet is about him. It's about Donald Trump stepping out over the balcony. And it is the east.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

I always got more of a Lear vibe, but okay. Jillian.

[John Stewart]

Both. Well, she's our Jeopardy. Champ, so she's gotta. She's gotta know that shit. I only have to know the titles of a couple of plays. She's gotta know what they're about. What else do they want?

[Producer/Host Assistant]

John, when do you think Democrats should start campaigning for 20, 28?

[John Stewart]

Oh, my God. I thought they already had. Oh, you know what I think? I think when they come up with, like, a plan Oh, I don't want to be controversial, but when they come up with like an idea about what they want to do when they govern, that isn't just like, what if we just extend that one housing tax credit? Like a theory. When they develop a theory of the case of government and how. And how to make it actionable to people's lives with value instead of just platitudes about we got to get back to affordability. You know those kitchen table issues and you're like, kitchen? What are you fucking talking about? Yeah, but have some specifics. You don't have any. ChatGPT could come up with a pretty nice platform probably in a minute and a half.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Yeah, Andrew Cuomo tried that.

[John Stewart]

Exactly. Oh, he did those AI commercials.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Well, he tried. He also, like, there was a housing plan that his team put out that just had like chatgpt, like gibberish in the middle.

[John Stewart]

Yeah, that's hilarious.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

What's that guy up to?

[John Stewart]

And that's why he won.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Exactly.

[John Stewart]

But how hard can it be? All right, very good, Brittany. How do they keep in touch with us?

[Producer/Host Assistant]

Twitter. We are weekly show pod. Instagram threads. TikTok, Blue Sky. We are weekly show podcasts and you can, like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, the weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[John Stewart]

Fantastic, guys. Thanks very much as always. Producer Brittany Medevic, producer Jillian Spear. Video editor and engineer Rob Votolo, who types faster than you think he does. Audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce. And our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. We shall see you all next week. Bye bye. The Weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions.

[Jack Smith]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[John Stewart]

Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made this $15 bills, but

[Jack Smith]

it turns out that's very illegal.

[John Stewart]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.

[Producer/Host Assistant]

See terms.

[John Stewart]

Paramount PO.