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- [00:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Jon Stewart
Hey, everybody, it's me, Jon Stewart. The we're doing the weekly show podcast. It is Wednesday, August 6th. Tomorrow is Thursday, I guess August 7th. I the summer's supposed to be quiet. I think that's the way things are are supposed to go. But it hasn't really worked out that way. I'm not going to talk actually too much moving into this, because we have a conversation today that I think is I think it's an important one. I think it's a sobering one, certainly. And so I just kind of want to get into it. I've had conversations over these past many months with Jewish people and Arab people and Palestinian people, but I really wanted to give some time to someone from Gaza, someone whose family is there, who was born there, grew up there and hear that perspective, one that I don't necessarily see a lot of. So I'm just going to get in. He's an incredible writer, an incredible poet, the winner of a Pulitzer for his writing. And I'm just going to introduce him. His name is Mosab Abu Toha. He's a poet, he's an author. And I want to get him in right now. All right, folks, so we're going to talk. Obviously, this is an incredibly fraught situation and a difficult one, but I became aware of a gentleman whose writings I quite admired as an author and a poet. His name is Mossab Abu Toha. He joins us now. Mosab, thank you so much for joining us and taking some time today.
- [01:52]
Mosab Abu Toha
Thank you so much, John. Looking forward to the conversation.
- [01:55]
Jon Stewart
Mossa, I wanted to ask you, just for people that are listening at home, just a brief you were born in Gaza, is that correct?
- [02:05]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, I was born in Gaza in a refugee camp called Shatta Refugee camp, the same refugee camp where my father was born in 1962, the same refugee camp where my grandparents lived until they died after they were expelled from their homes in 1948 from Jaffa. So that's where I was born.
- [02:24]
Jon Stewart
This was a refugee camp that became more of a city.
- [02:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
Exactly. And this is something that is, you know, outrageous when you see people, you know, commenting on some of the photos we post of the refugee camps, whether it's the Jabali refugee camp in north Gaza where my mother was born. They say, oh, this is a refugee camp. There are no tents. But I mean, come on, it's 77 years of occupation and these people have been living in I mean, you expect people to live in tents for 77 years. This is really I mean, this is sadistic you know, the way that they, you know, make fun of, you know, our lives or the term that we are using, still using for the places where we were living. Supposedly, you know, it was, you know, refugee camp is a temporary place, but it's been 77 years. And there are eight refugee camps in Gaza, John. There is Dashate refugee camp. Yeah. There are Jashate refugee camp where I was born. Also my father was born there. There is the Jabali refugee camp in north Gaza. There is one in Rafah that Israel erased. And there is one in Nusayrat. You hear the name of the city? Nusayrat Bureauj Magazi Khan Younis. There are refugee camps in these areas and Israel decimated, as far as I know, two of them. The Jebel refugee camp where my mother was born, and also my two maternal grandparents were born. They were not born during the Nakba, my maternal grandparents. So they were born in the Jebel refugee camp. And I was sheltering in the Jebel refugee camp before I had to leave Gaza in December 2023. And I look at videos, John, nothing is left of the refugee camp. And the same thing with Rafah. They decimated the whole city, including the refugee camp there. And if you want to talk more about this, it is heartbreaking for me as a Palestinian to realize that not only did the world watch Israel turn 70% currently of the Gazan population into refugees and their descendants, but also has carried out a military campaign and a genocidal one in which they erased two refugee camps. So they are even making the refugee, you know, experience for the Palestinians a hellish experience. Not only are they made refugees, not only are they killed. There are some Nakba survivors, by the way, John.
- [04:41]
Jon Stewart
Right. And when you refer to the Nakba, I just want people to understand what he's referring to is in 1948, when the Israeli state was formed, Palestinians moved off of the land that they had been living in. They refer to it as the Nakba. Yes, the disaster or the catastrophe.
- [05:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. They did not move out of there.
- [05:02]
Jon Stewart
They were or were expelled. That's I believe, because.
- [05:05]
Mosab Abu Toha
Because, you know, the Israelis were using euphemism there. They would say, oh, we are going to transfer these people. Or they, you know, the Arab countries that invaded Israel at the time, they asked them to leave. But I mean, come on, even if, even if these people moved out of their cities, like my grandparents in 1948, I mean, if I left a place, you know, my city or my house, you know, because there is an armed conflict, there is a lot of Going on, of course, I'm under the impression that I would be able to go back, but that did not happen for 77 years. My grandparents, John, died in the refugee camp, and they were buried in a cemetery close to the refugee camp. And that cemetery was destroyed by Israel and Moshe.
- [05:46]
Jon Stewart
And I apologize. You know, so I've been raised on a different narrative, right?
- [05:51]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [05:52]
Jon Stewart
And so when we approach these things from those two different perspectives, that's why, you know, what I wanted to talk to you about was that idea of what are the stories and the narratives that. That you wanted to express for that, you know, I. I spent some time in Jordan, and there were in Jordan an enormous amount of Palestinian refugee camps that had as. As you said, turned into cities, but they are still not really Jordanians. They're Palestinian refugees. There's also, you know, Palestinian camps in Lebanon. There were some, I guess, in Syria. In Syria?
- [06:33]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [06:34]
Jon Stewart
How many different enclaves th this all stemmed from?
- [06:39]
Mosab Abu Toha
Unbelievable.
- [06:39]
Jon Stewart
Those in 48 being driven from that area through the formation of that state. Would that be accurate?
- [06:49]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. So, John, you know, I mean, I'm listening to you, and you are 100% accurate on that. And tears are not on my eyes. They are inside of my body as I'm listening to you. It is indeed the case of my. My. Some of my mother's uncles who are living currently in Jordan in refugee camps, and they are not citizens of Jordan. And sometimes you think of this as a bad thing, and sometimes, you know, oh, no, it's a good thing, because these are refugees and they have the right to return. So indeed, there are refugee camps in five areas after 1948. There are eight refugee camps in the Gaza Strip. There are more refugee camps in the west bank, and there are refugee camps in Syria and Jordan and Lebanon. And even I think. I think the refugee camps in Lebanon are the worst of all, really. If you look at videos. Yeah, if you look at videos, people are living in something like, you know, slums. You know, people. I mean, they don't have electricity. They don't have enough water. They are struggling, maybe similar to what people are struggling in Gaza. They don't have. They don't have the same rights as other Lebanese people.
- [07:54]
Jon Stewart
They are not citizens in those. They're not citizens of Lebanon. They're not citizens of Jordan.
- [07:58]
Mosab Abu Toha
In Jordan, by the way. Yeah, Jordan. I visited Jordan. John, I'm going to tell you a lot of things, okay? In Jordan, I visited Jordan for the first time in my life in 2019. And you know why? Because in 2019, I became a Scholar at Risk at Harvard University, and I tried to apply for a permit to go to the American Embassy in Jerusalem, which is about 40 miles away from where I lived in Gaza. And I had to apply for a permit, and the Israelis denied me permit to go to Jerusalem. So I had to move the visa interview to Jordan, which is about four hours by car from Gaza, if I was allowed to go through Israel. And I was denied that permit. So I had to go to Egypt, and they're from Egypt, fly to Jordan. And then that was in 2019. It was the first time for me since 2000 to see my aunt Alia Abu Dhoha, who was married to my father's cousin and lived in Jordan. So it was the first time for me to see my aunt in 19 years at the time. And then I went to the refugee camp where one of two of my mother's uncles lived after 1967. And I met my mother's cousins, and they told me they don't have a Jordanian national number. This means that they cannot apply for jobs there because they could work here and there. But sometimes one, one of my, one of my mother's cousins told me that he. He proposed to a girl, a Jordanian girl. And when their families knew that he doesn't have a Jordanian national number, it didn't work. Right.
- [09:25]
Jon Stewart
Mosav, that's, that's, that's something that I think is. People might not realize. Yeah. You know, many people who live in these refugee camps have relatives that are very, very close by to them, but they are unable to get to them. There is. Families have been split throughout this. Give us a sense. Because you, you said something I thought very interesting, which was, I went to go to Jordan. I. I'm a scholar at risk from Harvard University. And you wanted to go there. It's. How far did you say it was?
- [10:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
40 miles from Gaza, where I lived in Bethlehem, because I was born in the refugee camp then. I mean, Gaza is very small. Even if I move to another part, it's maybe 10 miles, five miles away from where I was born.
- [10:12]
Jon Stewart
Okay.
- [10:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I was born in the refugee camp. Then at the age of eight in 2000, we moved to live in Bethlehem, where some of my family were killed, some of my relatives were killed. But anyway, this is not the story right now. So I applied for a permit to attend my appointment at the American Embassy in Jerusalem because there is no American Embassy or any other embassies in Gaza, so the closest embassy was in Jerusalem. So I applied for a permit. So I Was denied that permit. Okay. From where I lived in Bethlehem to Jerusalem, 70 kilometers. Say 70 kilometers, which is 40 miles. 40 miles, which is, which is about, you know, it's about an hour by car.
- [10:52]
Jon Stewart
Sure.
- [10:53]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, when you, when you, when you travel, it's like. Except if it's in New York City. Right.
- [10:58]
Jon Stewart
It would be like about three hours by car in New York City, but that makes sense.
- [11:02]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, exactly. So. So, I mean, I was denied that permit. And by the way, John, denied.
- [11:07]
Jon Stewart
Did. Now, did they mention Mossad security? Get a denial? Oh, security reasons.
- [11:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
Security. They don't tell you. Oh, what. What is your. What is that?
- [11:16]
Jon Stewart
They don't want poets. They don't want a poet to go through.
- [11:18]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, it's not only me. It's. It's most of people in Gaza. They say security, reason, security, but they don't tell you what, what your. What. What your security background is. What is the problem with you? They don't tell you at all. Okay, so, John, what happened. What happened, by the way, is that I would be taken on a bus from the Ariz crossing, which is between Gaza and Israel. I would take on a bus along with a Palestinian security man. He would be keeping our passports as travelers from Gaza to Jerusalem. He would be keeping our passports with him. And then the bus would drop us off at the gate of the embassy. We would go inside the embassy, attend the interview, and then we go to the same bus and go back to Gaza the same day.
- [11:59]
Jon Stewart
This is. If you had been approved. If you had been approved, that's how the trip would have gone. Okay, so now you haven't been approved. What do you do?
- [12:07]
Mosab Abu Toha
So, yeah, I had to. I had to apply for another appointment at the American Embassy in Jordan. And I applied again. Okay. I said. I said, okay, maybe Israel doesn't want me to go to Jerusalem. Maybe I would do something wrong there.
- [12:18]
Jon Stewart
I'll go to a different American embassy.
- [12:20]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, So I applied for a new permit, and that same trip would take me from Gaza from the Arizona crossing to Jordan to the Alembi Bridge on the other side of the country.
- [12:29]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [12:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
And again, the permit was denied. They did not approve my. My permit.
- [12:33]
Jon Stewart
Well, what was, what was the. Is that another security reason?
- [12:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I have to apply for a. For a. For a. For a permit to go to leave Gaza for Egypt and from there fly from Cairo to Amman in Jordan. So it's, It's Yani, by the way, I was 27 years old, and that was the first time in my life I left Gaza.
- [12:55]
Jon Stewart
The first time at 27, your entire life is spent in an area. Give people a sense of the size.
- [13:03]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes. Gaza is 141 square miles.
- [13:08]
Jon Stewart
It's very small, and there's 2 million people living there.
- [13:11]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [13:11]
Jon Stewart
Okay.
- [13:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
I used to teach in Bethanun, which is another city that Israel decimated. You look at videos and by the way, John, we'll talk about this later. It's not only the Palestinians who have been documenting this genocide. It's even the Israelis who are, you know, documenting the destruction from the drones. They are showing you. Okay, look at Bethanun, it's decimated. Look at west, east of Khan Yun. It's not only that we are saying Israel destroyed everything. And then they would say, you know, the Israelis would say, oh, it's hasbara. It's propaganda. This is. But no, they themselves are documenting all these things. So I used to teach in Bethune. I know that city very well. So if you want to travel from north Gaza, Bethanoon to south Gaza, which is Rafah, it wouldn't take you more than 40 minutes by car. This is from north to south and that's the top.
- [13:59]
Jon Stewart
The northern part of Gaza to the southern part of Gaza. 40 minute drive.
- [14:03]
Mosab Abu Toha
40. Yeah, yeah. I traveled from Bethanun to Rafah to the border crossing when I travel.
- [14:08]
Jon Stewart
And Rafah is the border crossing that's around Egypt area. Just to give people a sense of the geography.
- [14:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. And then if you want to. In some areas, if you want to travel, you can look at the map of the gazer. If you want to travel from east, east Gaza, for example, neighborhood, which is also decimating. And I wanted to go to the beach west of Gaza. Sometimes, maybe it would take you 15 minutes.
- [14:26]
Jon Stewart
It's that narrow. It's a very thin strip. Very thin.
- [14:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
It's very narrow. Exactly. So this is. This is the Gaza we lived. And you know, despite.
- [14:34]
Jon Stewart
And you lived there for your whole life? Up until 27, I lived.
- [14:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
I lived there my whole life. And by the way, in one of my poems, my dreams as a child, I still now, until now, I'm 32 years old, I still have dreams of seeing the refugee camp from a window on a plane. I've never seen Gaza or Palestine from a window on a plane. I've never seen my country from above. And by the way, there is no airport in Gaza, John. There is no airport in Gaza. There is no airport in the West Bank. Israel destroyed the only airport that Gaza had, which was built in 1999. It destroyed it in 2000, 2001. So that is what. That was. The only time Palestinians had an airport, it was in Gaza. Israel destroyed it.
- [15:18]
Jon Stewart
So you. When you were born there, this was. Israel was still had settlements within Gaza. This is before, I guess, 2006, when they.
- [15:30]
Mosab Abu Toha
2005, they left Gaza. It is very ridiculous, John, and you mentioned that. It is very ridiculous that to say we gave up Gaza, you know, we gave the Palestinians, you know, a chance to. Come on. What chance did you give the Palestinians, you know, to build a state? You. You did not allow the Palestinians to build an airport. They did not allow us to build a seaport, and they kept the border crossings closed. So what kind of state are we? Were we supposed to build when Gaza has been under siege? Even before Hamas took control of Gaza? So this is one of the biggest lies that Israelis and some of their allies keep repeating. Oh, we gave them a chance. We left Gaza in 2005, but they built tunnels instead. But come on. Even before Hamas existed, even before Hamas took power in 2006, 2007, Israel did not allow us again to build airports, seaport. They did not allow us to even. By the way, this is shocking, maybe to you as someone who's living in America. We have 5G, right? Mobile connection.
- [16:30]
Jon Stewart
Cell phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, cell phone.
- [16:32]
Mosab Abu Toha
Do you know. Do you know what kind of connection we have in Gaza? 2G.
- [16:36]
Jon Stewart
I didn't. I didn't even know. 2G. What is that?
- [16:38]
Mosab Abu Toha
Just.
- [16:39]
Jon Stewart
That's a wire with two paper cups.
- [16:41]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes. It's. You can't. You can't. You can't browse the Internet. It's. You can't rely on it. 2G. Israel has been not approving the Palestinians to get a better than 2G Mossa.
- [16:53]
Jon Stewart
Can you remember a time when there was an optimism within your life or your community where you thought, oh, maybe now the boot is being lifted. Maybe. Maybe there will be an opportunity. Or has it always within your family when you talk about the future? I mean, you're a poet. You write these beautiful poems. I'm curious where that desire to dream came from. Does it come from the feeling of a certain hopelessness? Or were you in any of these moments thinking that the tide had turned for your people and your family?
- [17:41]
Mosab Abu Toha
Thank you so much. This is really a very great question. In fact, this is devastating for me to think about, because as a poet, I wrote about, you know, my experience of being wounded in an airstrike. In 2009, I was 16 years old.
- [17:56]
Jon Stewart
Yes.
- [17:56]
Mosab Abu Toha
And two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my body, and they didn't know that at the time. I was wounded in January 20, 2009, and the two pieces of shrapnel stayed in my head and neck until August. I had to go through.
- [18:07]
Jon Stewart
How were you wounded? Mossad. If you don't mind me asking.
- [18:10]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I was. It was 2000, December 20, 2008. In January 2009, Israel attacked Gaza for, I think, 22 days. That was one of the biggest attacks on Gaza by Israel. And I was. At the time, I was going back from school, I wrote about that in one of my poems. It's called the Wounds. And I wrote that poem and I documented everything, and I was shocked that I could remember everything. I wrote that poem just three years ago, and I remembered everything that happened in 2009. Details, even. I remember the smell of the person who was put next to me in the ambulance. He was. He didn't have head. A head at the time.
- [18:47]
Jon Stewart
Oh, my Lord.
- [18:48]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I remember the smell when I tried, when I started. I remember this mill. I remember the sounds. I remember the blood dripping from my forehead here. If you can see here, there is a piece of shrapnel.
- [18:57]
Jon Stewart
Oh, God. Yeah. No, I can't see that.
- [18:59]
Mosab Abu Toha
So, John, I was walking in the street in January. I think it was January 19th. So I was walking in the street to buy some eggs and bread for my sisters, my little sister, because we were fasting on that day. So I was walking in the city, and there was a group of people gathering in the street on Al Jala Street. This is one of the most famous streets in Gaza. It's called Al Jala, and it connects some parts of Bethlehem with Gaza City.
- [19:27]
Jon Stewart
Okay.
- [19:27]
Mosab Abu Toha
So I was. I mean, I saw that there is a gathering of people in the street, and I stopped just to see what's happening. Later, later, later I realized that there was an airstrike that killed two people. And people were gathering, scared to go down in the street to move the bodies, put them in an ambulance. So people were scared to go because Israel might have stricken again. So I was waiting with these people, trying to see. And then there was an airstrike in the middle of the people, in the middle of the gathering. Seven people were killed. Seven people were killed. And I was one of the people who were wounded. And I remember exactly that everyone fell down after the earthquake. And I was the only one maybe who remained standing. And blood was dripping from my foreh and there was some pain in my neck. Maybe you could see some. You know, the piece. Oh, here, right?
- [20:15]
Jon Stewart
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:16]
Mosab Abu Toha
Here.
- [20:17]
Jon Stewart
I can See? Yeah.
- [20:18]
Mosab Abu Toha
So my brother later told me, musaab, there is a hole in your neck. I couldn't see it. So, Mus', Ab, there is a hole and you could fit your index finger in it.
- [20:25]
Jon Stewart
Your brother is with you? You guys were together?
- [20:27]
Mosab Abu Toha
No, later, when they came to the hospital.
- [20:28]
Jon Stewart
Oh, later when he saw you in the hospital.
- [20:29]
Mosab Abu Toha
Okay, yeah, I was on the code and my brother and father came to the hospital and they told me, mus', Abb, we missed you, we thought you were killed. We started looking for you in the morgue, right? But they found me on the cot, and I was relatively good compared to other people who lost limbs, etc. So, John, for someone like me to watch a genocide and also document it, I'm not only a witness, I am a victim myself. I was about to be killed in that airstrike, and it happened many times that there were airstrikes just close to me. Later, after 2009, I survived many airstrikes. Our house was bombed in October 2023, just two weeks after we lifted. And we are lucky because no one was inside the house. Otherwise, my whole family, about 30 people, about 20 of them were children, Some of them were just months old. My niece, who is now a year and a half, living in a tent right now. So I survived many things, John. So whatever I'm talking about, it comes from an experience of someone who was born in a refugee camp and who survived death many times and who lost family members, first cousins with whole families. So you asked me about hope, so I'm just telling you this just to give you a sense that it is impossible to feel hope. But the only hope for me as a human being and as a poet, as an author, is when I share these words, these stories, these experiences with people like you and people outside of Gaza who have never been allowed to go to Gaza. So that is the sense of hope that I get, is when I share the stories with people, because I want people to know what life is like in Gaza in the hope that people will stop that. I mean, when I wrote a poem about my wounds in 2009, so I didn't try for you, you know, to shed some tears and, oh, you put poor people, we sympathize with you, but no, I want you to do something that's the same thing that the Jewish people during the Holocaust did, you know, they shared the story, they wrote about it in the hope that never again we have been writing stories. Never again. Please do not, please free us. We don't want to live under occupation. So that's the hope. That's where I, I get hope. I get hope because I see people, you know, you know, understanding what, what's happening, feeling what's happening. But that's not enough.
- [22:47]
Jon Stewart
Well, look, Mosad, now you're, you're seeing things. You know, I don't know if you were aware, there was a, the letter that was just written to, to President Trump from the head of the, the former head of Mossad, the former head of Shin Bet, which is sort of the intelligence.
- [23:02]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [23:02]
Jon Stewart
Domestically for Israel, all saying this has to stop.
- [23:07]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [23:08]
Jon Stewart
Does, does that give you, you know, or how do you feel? Like this is just a repeat of things past and, and it won't change anything. What, what do those changes in the international community.
- [23:23]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [23:24]
Jon Stewart
Feel like to you, John?
- [23:26]
Mosab Abu Toha
I'm, I, I, I, I will be honest with you.
- [23:29]
Jon Stewart
Okay.
- [23:30]
Mosab Abu Toha
I will tell you how I feel as a Palestinian refugee, as a victim, as a survivor, as a witness. This is how I see things. So there are some Israelis who have been outspoken about the, Israel's Israeli crimes against humanity, the killing of people, the wiping out of entire families, the decimation of cities and refugee camps. So these people have been speaking out against these things. Yet there are some other people who may have spoken out, not because they feel sympathy with the Palestinian people, I can't judge, but my understanding is that they want Israel to stop that because they don't want the world to see Israel as that kind of villain. So they care about Israel's reputation in the outside world more than they care.
- [24:16]
Jon Stewart
About the immorality of it. Right. Okay.
- [24:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
I'm not gonna judge, you know, because only God knows what is in someone's heart. But this is how I understand things. I think that some Israelis, you know, have been speaking out, like Gidwyn Levy and other media people have been, but they are very, very tiny minority. So they have been speaking because they know that this should not happen to any human being, even if it's the Palestinians, even if they did something wrong. Okay, but there are some other Israelis, and even not Israelis who speak out because this is harming Israel. It's not, it's not that it is harming the Palestinians for 77 years, but this is harming Israel's reputation. They're going to say, look at the Jews, what they are doing. This is, you know, this is, this is increasing anti Semitism. So they care about how.
- [25:00]
Jon Stewart
Still self preservation. Right?
- [25:02]
Mosab Abu Toha
Exactly. For me, as a Palestinian, if someone, whether it's the former head of Shanbeit or Whatever. Whatever. Whoever they are, if they really want the world to see them as people who care about other people, the Palestinian people, in this case, they should call for an end to the Israeli occupation. For the freedom of the Palestinian people. We need to enjoy equal rights like anyone in this world is that entire.
- [25:24]
Jon Stewart
It. It feels like it's entire. It seems like everybody's left it entirely up to Israel. And maybe that's the issue. What is your sense on the ground from Palestinian refugees of the Saudis, Egypt, the Jordanian government, other governments in the area that are allied with the Palestinian cause, it would seem, from their statements, but are very passive when it comes to. I don't understand why no one has stepped in to.
- [25:59]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [26:00]
Jon Stewart
To draw a line.
- [26:01]
Mosab Abu Toha
Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah. John, this is. This is unbelievable. It's very shameful that we are watching, you know, the genocide being carried out for 22 months, documented by both the Palestinians who are in Gaza and some of the Israeli soldiers who are documenting their. Their crimes as they blow up cities and counting. And they, oh, this is a gift for my daughter on her birthday. Yallah, boom. Destroy a whole neighborhood. So it's very shameful that we are watching this, you know, while. So, you know, some other countries who join Palestine, and in this case, Egypt, with Gaza unable to do anything, while if, for example, a missile was coming from Yemen, you find another Arab country like Jordan intercepting that missile, while no one has been intercepting any of the bombs that Israel has been dropping on Palestinian people on tents in the streets.
- [26:55]
Jon Stewart
Why? What. But most of these.
- [26:58]
Mosab Abu Toha
These Arab countries are allied with the Palestinian people. I don't. I mean, people do. Are allied.
- [27:03]
Jon Stewart
That's what they say.
- [27:03]
Mosab Abu Toha
But governments are. I don't think governments are right, because if they were, they would do everything in their power, you know, to stop Israel from doing that. Because we. I mean, Gaza, John, Gaza has had the three neighbors, the sea, Israel and Egypt, Right? So there is no other country, you know, to flee to.
- [27:22]
Jon Stewart
And Egypt has closed the border as well. Is it because. Are they. Are. Is it. They're afraid of Hamas as well? What is the. What's their rationale for.
- [27:32]
Mosab Abu Toha
What is Hamas, I don't know, afraid of Hamas?
- [27:34]
Jon Stewart
Whatever they refer.
- [27:35]
Mosab Abu Toha
What does Hamas have even. What. What kind of rhythms does Hamas have? Right. Well, at this point, so here it's similar to what's happening to what's been happening in Jordan and Lebanon. These countries do not want to have Palestinian refugees for good and bad reasons. They don't want to be responsible for another plight of the Palestinian people. For them to live in Egypt and to move them out of their homeland, which is, in this case, Gaza. Even though 70%, John, 70% of the population of Gaza are refugees and their descendants. I am a descendant. I am a grandchild of refugees from Jaffa. So I'm a refugee, and that's something that Israel hated.
- [28:14]
Jon Stewart
So your family was from Yaffa?
- [28:15]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, it is the name of my daughter, Yafa. I have two sons and one daughter.
- [28:19]
Jon Stewart
Give people a sense. Yaffa is in the north of Israel. Is that where is that geographically?
- [28:25]
Mosab Abu Toha
It's in the middle of the coast.
- [28:27]
Jon Stewart
The middle of the coast. Okay.
- [28:28]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [28:29]
Jon Stewart
So that's where your family lived before?
- [28:31]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, that's one reason why my grandparents went to Shate. Shate means beach, by the way. Gaza is on the beach, and the Shate refugee camp is exactly on the beach. So that's why my grandfather and one of his brothers went to live in Chateau, because this is where they used to live, on the beach. Right, right.
- [28:51]
Jon Stewart
And they had a beautiful life there.
- [28:53]
Mosab Abu Toha
They did.
- [28:53]
Jon Stewart
They lived there for generations.
- [28:55]
Mosab Abu Toha
I never met my grandfather, John. I was born after he died. And I don't know where his grave is. I don't know his date of birth. There are so many things that I want to know about my family who lived in Yaffa. Just a few. I mean, maybe an hour and a half away from Gaza. There is another shocking thing, John. I have never been to the west bank, which is considered the Palestinian territory.
- [29:18]
Jon Stewart
Right, right.
- [29:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
I'm from Gaza. I've never been to the West Bank.
- [29:20]
Jon Stewart
They're not connected.
- [29:22]
Mosab Abu Toha
I don't know people in the West Bank. I can't talk about the experiences of people in Ramallah, in Nablus and Hebrew, although I see their videos, but I don't know how they live exactly, except from the news. So. And this. They the same thing. They don't. They have never been to Gaza. It's. It's devastating.
- [29:39]
Jon Stewart
And so it's a people divided through that. Right.
- [29:42]
Mosab Abu Toha
It's devastating, John Mossab, in.
- [29:45]
Jon Stewart
In. In. In a perfect world, is there a contiguous. How. How do we extract ourselves? And I know that the. Look, you're in the middle of it, and. And it's not fair to look to you and say, hey, what's the way out of this thing? Other than. But it feels like without the international community stepping in to separate two combatants and creating some barrier so that two societies can flourish separately, which seems like the only way to do this at this point. Is there any other way to do this?
- [30:22]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, yes, there is one way. Okay, which is when the world, not only leaders but also media people, when they start to care about the security of the Palestinian people the same way they care about the security of Israel. So tell me, tell me, why do the Palestinian people not have an army?
- [30:42]
Jon Stewart
Well, I assume it's because Israel does not allow them to have an army. So they have kind of a guerrilla kind of outfit.
- [30:49]
Mosab Abu Toha
So who's going to protect the Palestinian people when they are living under occupation? For example, in the West Bank, John, not in Gaza. The Israeli settlers attack Palestine.
- [30:57]
Jon Stewart
No, Mossad. Look, it's an interesting question in the West. So here's the question. In the west, doesn't Israel have a right to exist and doesn't Israel have a right to defend itself and everybody. Yes and yes. Okay, but I imagine the exact same question can be applied to. Don't the Palestinians have a right to exist? Yes. And don't the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves?
- [31:17]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, this is it.
- [31:18]
Jon Stewart
Well now, okay, now we're, now we're, now we're cooking with gas here. So what do you do with that then? That's just a recipe for incessant conflict. One sided. Because one side has very powerful weapons that the United States provides and the other side does not. So it just seems inevitable, not to be horrible about this, but inevitable that they are going to continue to force Palestinians into smaller and smaller areas.
- [31:49]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. John, Israel is not the only one responsible for the catastrophe of the Palestinian people 77 years ago. It is the whole world. Even the UN. Even the UN. Even the Un. Okay, I'm not attacking the UN, but, but I'm gonna say that the UN attack away. Yeah. So the UN, by the way, Israel was admitted to the United nations as a full member in 1949, just one year after it was founded. Palestine, is it a member of the United Nations?
- [32:18]
Jon Stewart
It is not.
- [32:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
No, it is not. Why? Why is Palestine not a part of the United Nations? Even though, John, for your information, the Palestine, Palestine, you know, in the United nations, the Palestinian mission there on April. I'm going to read this for you. On April 18th, the United States vetoed a Security Council resolution that would have recommended Palestine's admission to full UN membership. This action effectively blocked Palestine's application for full member status which had been submitted in 2011. Palestine submitted an application to become a full member of the United nations in 2011. And the United States just a few months ago vetoed that Security Council resolution. So why. I can't understand. And even other countries, you know, like Canada, like France, like Britain, they recognized Israel, even though. John, this is very important to highlight for everyone. Based on the partition plan, the Jewish state should have had 50% of the Palestinian land. But even though the Jewish people, in 1947, when the Parchini plan was passed, they only had about 6% of the land, while the Palestinian people, who had all of the land, they were given 40%, at least 43, because Jerusalem was under international authorities. So after 1948, after the war, the catastrophe in 1948, Israel occupied, you know, how much? 78% of the land.
- [33:54]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [33:55]
Mosab Abu Toha
So despite that, even though Israel was occupying more than it was given during the. I mean, based on the partitioning plan, it was recognized by other countries and it was admitted, you know, as a full member of the United Nations. How is the. I mean, can someone explain.
- [34:16]
Jon Stewart
Do you think that was because of. Of Western sympathies? And, you know, look, there's a. What I find so kind of hard here is there's a Palestinian history and there's an Israeli history, and the two of them don't really intersect the way that the, the different people describe the, you know, unfairness of the situation. Or Israel would say, no, we wanted to live in peace. And then everybody attacked us. And so that's why we had to. And we have to protect ourselves. You know, again, I, I feel like we've left two people in very difficult situations to fend for themselves. One of them was supported by the west and armed and became a powerful army, and the other was abandoned by everybody. It's hard to not see the Palestinians as having been abandoned by everybody.
- [35:14]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, interesting point. I have my own say here.
- [35:18]
Jon Stewart
Please.
- [35:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I respect you and I know the background of the Jewish people, but maybe some questions we should ask. So did the Palestinian people play any role in the Holocaust, in the suffering of the Jewish people in Europe? My grandparents, when they were swimming in the sea in Jaffa, did they know even maybe anything about what was happening in Germany and in Poland?
- [35:42]
Jon Stewart
You're saying they faced a penalty and a punishment for something they had no part of?
- [35:47]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. And by the way, some Jewish people were living in Palestine even before the first Zionist Congress, and I think it was in 1879. So there were some Jewish people who were living in Palestine, and no one of them, you know, said, oh, we're going to create a state. So the Jewish people in Europe were faced with horrific, horrific experiences in Europe, not in Palestine, not in Gaza, not in Jaffa. My grandparents and everyone, they did not play any role in the suffering of The Jewish people in Europe, I mean, thousands of miles away. Right. So of course everyone should sympathize with the Jewish people, but it should not be on the expense, at the expense of the Palestinian people. And by the way, John, Yafa city, Yafa as a city based on the partition plan, it should have been part of the Arab, the Palestinian state.
- [36:36]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [36:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
So no one is denying that the Jewish people have gone through a holocaust and this is the most heinous war crime in the 20th century. But what about the Nakba, the catastrophe with the Palestinian people that not only resulted in the killing of some Palestinians, but also in the disposition and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians, a problem that continues until today. So why. So let's say the Palestinian people, no one sympathizes with them. And even if they sympathize with the Palestinian people, what is this going to.
- [37:08]
Jon Stewart
Part of it, Mossab, is, it's the narrative, you know, we've been raised in a narrative that Israel is a necessary good. You know, we've been raised in Schindler's List and the movie Munich and we all watched, you know, the, the, the terrorism of the early 70s and the sympathies of the United States and of many people. And I include myself within that because that's how I was raised, was the narrative was this is a, this is a good, an unqualified good, and the other is an unqualified bad. And that's the narrative that everybody has been fighting against since then. And so as I watch what's unfolding, you have to realize now this is all coming as sort of a head scratching. Oh, everything has, has changed, even though it hasn't in, in especially in the minds of those that have suffered through the Nakba and through these other injustices. This is not something that I think has been visible for a lot of different reasons. A, I don't think people wanted to see it. B, I don't think you have the same Western journalist access. It's been restricted.
- [38:34]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [38:35]
Jon Stewart
And so, you know, I think, I think people right now are, you've had to endure this for your 30 some years. Your families had to endure it for generations. Unfortunately, many of us are just waking up to it.
- [38:53]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I know it is the narrative that many people, especially in this country, have been raised on, but this is not hell, I planted a tree there.
- [39:03]
Jon Stewart
That was the whole thing. You know, when you're raised as a Jewish kid in the States, you know, the first thing you do is you gotta plant a tree in Israel. Apparently, like, no trees. Yeah, I may have to go get my tree back.
- [39:14]
Mosab Abu Toha
You plant. You plant a tree in the place of an orange tree that my grandparents, you know, planted centuries.
- [39:19]
Jon Stewart
Right, but that's. That part hasn't been. I know that wasn't explained in Hebrew school.
- [39:24]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I know.
- [39:25]
Jon Stewart
I'm sure there's things that aren't explained. Listen, and I don't want to oversimplify and suggest that, like, oh, and, you know, look, armed insurrection and revolutionaries and Hamas and the Islamists, like, that's also incredibly cruel. October 7th. Incredibly cruel, horrific. Just give back the hostage. Like, all that stuff still applies. But I think it's important to hear that broader perspective from someone like yourself who's been raised in this tragedy.
- [39:57]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. So, John, you know, what I'm sharing with you, it's not only my opinion on what's happening or what should be happening. You know, it is my story. It is me. Right? So people talk about Palestine. So for example, you bring, you know, guests and other. Bring guests to talk about Palestine. But what is just like Peter said, you know, what is equally important is to bring people from there, because these people are the story. We are talking. So people like you and others who are here, they don't have, you know, I wish you could go to Gaza and meet people and talk to them. I mean, people in the media talk about Palestinians, about the story, but they.
- [40:33]
Jon Stewart
Don'T talk to people from there.
- [40:35]
Mosab Abu Toha
It is equally important. I think it's more important to talk to the story itself. One time I was asked, are you going to tell your children, you know, these stories that you are telling us? I told them my children are the story in my poetry. I talk about my children. One time in May 2021, when Israel attacked Gaza. For 11 days I was filming. Okay, it's on my phone. And later I wrote a poem about my son throwing a blanket over my daughter, you know, telling her, you can hide from the bombs because there was some bombing in the background. So he threw a blanket on her. He said to her, you can hide now. So my children and me also, we are the story. So the story should be the one who is talking. I don't like. I mean, that could be the case in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, you know, when people, you know, come to talk about what they see in Palestine, what they hear from there. But it is now the time for the people from there who live the experience, for the story itself to speak up.
- [41:35]
Jon Stewart
You know, Mosab, is that. Is that one of the hardest Things, because what you see in a lot of Western media is, oh, that's not what happened. That's an exaggeration. Oh, they're not starving. That's not actually a starving child. That child has cystic fibrosis. And you're like, well, I think that child has cystic fibrosis and is starving. You know, is that one of the more difficult things or more frustrating things? Because now that you're not enduring it, being in the States, to see that narrative.
- [42:07]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. John, I'm talking to first degree family members, right? I talked to my father, who are still there. Yes. I talked to my uncle Ibrahim, who had a bachelor's degree in English and French literature. And he was talking to me on the phone back from the Zikim Aid crossing. And he described to me what is an apocalyptic scene. He told me he went back home to the tent. Sorry, not home. He went back home. He went back to the tent to his wife and their two children, Naeem and Sajab, who lived with me in the school shelter. Before I left, he told me, I saw two things. Two people. One of them was shot in the arm, and he was carrying his arm with his other hand. And then there was another old man who was shot in the abdomen. And that man took off his shirt to shut the wound. It's apocalyptic, John. And I post videos on my ex every day of people. Yesterday I posted a video of someone who was filming his cousin, Haitham Abuarda. He was filming the people on the ground after they were shot and other people. You think most people would stop and carry those to the hospital? There are no hospital in the. Where the Ed crossing is coming from. So people would continue going to the eight tracks to. To get whatever they could. So that man was filming at least five, five, seven people. And then on his camera, you watch it and you. You listen to him. Oh, that's Haitham, my cousin. That's his cousin who was killed.
- [43:36]
Jon Stewart
Oh, God.
- [43:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
So people in Gaza, my. My uncle and my relatives tell me that they are starving. They are telling me Mossad, my wife's uncle's wife told me that she was 70 kilograms before the genocide, and now she is 40. She's 40 kilograms. So she lost 30 kilograms of her weight. So I'm going, no, no, you are not starving. It's still good. It's still good. You know what? Hamas is stealing your aid. You know people are starving, right? Let the aid in. Let it end with large quantities. And we know that Hamas is not stealing it because Israel does not have any evidence. Right. This is what the Israeli generals and.
- [44:18]
Jon Stewart
Officials, even if they were stealing some of the aid, I mean, it's a moral imperative to get.
- [44:24]
Mosab Abu Toha
Exactly. And by the way, Israel is occupying Gaza, so they are responsible for providing. Hamas is not governing Gaza. Hamas is not an official entity. It's not a state. Even if they do some things that are wrong, they do not represent the Palestinian people. But whatever Israel is doing in its army, it represents Israel. And there is something, John, I have to say, with all due respect to everyone, I have so many Jewish friends, you know, my editor, my literary agent. Most of you don't have any literary agent.
- [44:52]
Jon Stewart
You don't have to couch it in anything I have.
- [44:54]
Mosab Abu Toha
I mean, some of the most amazing people I met in my life are Jewish people. I'm honest. My editor, my literary agent, the lady with whom I stayed when I go.
- [45:10]
Jon Stewart
To Manhattan, you don't have to qualify.
- [45:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
But, you know, go ahead. I love the Jewish people. So much.
- [45:15]
Jon Stewart
So it hurts me when Israel related your cousins.
- [45:19]
Mosab Abu Toha
Exactly.
- [45:20]
Jon Stewart
I'm related to you. You're related to me.
- [45:21]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, we are. We are related. And even if we are not Jewish and Palestinian, even if we are just random human beings, we all come from the same father.
- [45:29]
Jon Stewart
We're related by the human lineage.
- [45:32]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yes, exactly. So, John, what's happening here is that when Israel, you know, says, we are the Jewish people, we are protecting the Jewish people. So it means that what they are committing in Gaza right now is by the name of the Jewish people. Right? Because when they say, oh, I'm protecting the Jewish people, I'm going to expel 700,000 Palestinians and turn Gaza into refugee camps and then destroy the refugee camps. So these are Jewish soldiers. But for me, as Palestinians, I know, as a Palestinian, I know that these are not only Jewish, these are Israelis. They are Zionists. For me, I'm not gonna say, oh, this Za' ILI soldier is like John, who is in New Jersey and, you know, taking care of his family and opening the eyes of people on what's happening in America and outside. So I'm not. I'm not gonna fall into that trap. But they. By what they are doing, they are telling everyone in the world, look, we are Jewish people. Look what we are doing. We are cutting aid, John. I named it a genocide. You can go to my Facebook page. I named it a genocide from the fifth day, right? I said to the world, stop the genocide. I did not wait for Amnesty International to call it a genocide. I didn't wait for Beth Salem, the Israeli human Rights organization to call it a genocide. I knew, I knew what a genocide is because I knew what Israel was capable of doing. And they are doing it. When they said we are going to cut off food, medicine, water, these are human animals, you should leave. Netanyahu said on October 12. That was an interview I did with Democracy Now. That same day, Netanyahu said to people in Gaza, people of Gaza, you should leave.
- [47:06]
Jon Stewart
So what if someone knew at that point?
- [47:09]
Mosab Abu Toha
Exactly. So October 12, he said, you should leave. You understand that if you don't leave, they are going to say, you see, we told them to leave, we are going to kill them. It means that they are Hamas, these are terrorists. So I knew, I knew what they were going to do without them doing it. The genocide zone is not about what Israel is doing. The genocide is about what they are doing and what they are going to do. And they are doing it for 22 months. You don't have to wait until someone finishes with the genocide.
- [47:36]
Jon Stewart
Mosab, are there any levers of influence within Gaza for these? I imagine it's operating a little bit like, you know, Mad Max, that it's people are just trying to survive and then there's some armed, I would assume, guerrilla type gangs and things like that. But is there any, if you were to ask your family other than, you know, look, we just, we need the international aid and do they even think about the politics of it? Like, well, if we could get pressure on Israel to do this or if we could somehow leverage pressure on Hamas to do this or do they just think, I just need food and water and medicine for my children and leave me out of the rest of this?
- [48:22]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I mean, people in Gaza, John, want to live. I mean they are so tired. People in Gaza are really tired. I mean people, I hear it from my relatives in Gaza, they say, I wish I could just die today because I'm gonna die anyway. I don't want to die. I mean, so for example, by the way, my father in law, my wife's father was killed on Monday. On Sunday he was wounded in an airstrike while on the way to the, to the, to the Zikim Aid crossing. He was hit with other people by an Israeli drone missile and two pieces of shrapnel pierced his head, landed in his, in the middle of his brain and doctors couldn't operate and he passed. He died on Sunday. That was just five days ago.
- [49:00]
Jon Stewart
I'm so sorry, Massab. That's.
- [49:02]
Mosab Abu Toha
So for example, my uncle, I call him Uncle Jalil. My father in Law. So if all. I mean, it devastates me. So just imagine he survived all this time from October 7th until three days ago. So he survived all of this time. He survived the starvation, he went back to his house. He's a strawberry farmer. They destroyed his strawberry farm, they destroyed his house. So just imagine, you know, surviving about 650 days and then to die, you know, when two pieces of lambda pierced your head. So people sometimes say, oh, you know, I wish I had died, you know, on October 7th or October 8th. Why should I have survived all this time just to be killed like that? So people want this to end, right? And about the ceasefire, There was a ceasefire in January and Israel broke it, right? There was a chance that the Israeli hostages who must be released today, unconditionally, along with the Palestinian hostages, everyone, I mean, no one should be kept hostage.
- [50:03]
Jon Stewart
You were held in captivity for a while as well, weren't you?
- [50:06]
Mosab Abu Toha
I was abducted from my wife and kids for three days. And I mean, I didn't have anything on myself. And because of the international pressure, I was released. But I was John. I was sexually harassed. I had to undress, remove all my clothes in front of three Israeli soldiers. Do you call this anything that has to do with sexual harassment when you force someone to remove all their clothes in front of three Israeli soldiers? No one talks about these things. I'm not called the hostage because I'm Palestinian. I was detained, I was arrested. But this is not how you arrest someone. This is not how you detain someone. You do not blindfold them, you do not handcuff them, you do not force them to remove all their clothes. And even they forced me to turn around, even to see all my body from different directions. And then I was taken to a detention center and I was beaten in the face and beaten in my stomach, and I was denied medical treatment. I told the Israelis, when they brought us in front of an Israeli doctor, we were still blindfolded in a handcuff. I told them I have some pain in my nose after I was kicked in my nose and I have pain in my ear, on which I had a surgery in the US in 2021 20, during COVID So I told them, I want some medicine, I want painkiller. And they didn't give me anything. They just asked me about my name, my phone number, my date of that, the question by the doctor that we had to see, my phone number, my address in Gaza, my birth of date, my ID number, my ID card number. And then I told them I have pain in My nose. I have pain in my ear. Can you give me a mini pen? No, they just, you know, put me back in the detention center and they were feeding us, I think maybe a toast or maybe half. Half. Half. One and some. A spoonful of yogurt and maybe three, four drops of water. And when we used the toilet, someone had to pick us from the place. He's one of us, but he's not. Blindfolded and handcuffed, he would be taking care of all of us, about 100 people. He would take us to the toilet. And there was no toilet paper, no water to clean after yourself. So I lived. I lived there for three days. Only three days.
- [52:24]
Jon Stewart
Look, you know, you're a man of literature, you're a poet, you're a human being, you're a Palestinian, you're a father, you're a husband. How are you not consumed with absolute rage? It's so hard to hear any of this and not think this is a nuclear reactor of rage and anger and resentment. That. How do you manage that in your own body?
- [53:08]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I stick to my humanity, John. This is the only weapon I have. How I keep my humanity in my heart, in myself. I try to be as supportive to my family, to my wife and three kids here, and also my family and relatives and friends in Gaza. I support them with everything I can. I call them. How are you? How are you doing? You know, how was your day? You know, people want to talk to us. People want to talk to us. I talk to them. And my father in law, God bless his soul, when, when he takes the phone, when I talk to him, he starts to make up stories. You know, he just wants to talk to me, right? So I try to be as supportive as possible. You know, people in Gaza have not only been bombed by Israel, have not. Not only have they lost their houses and they were bombed in their tents, but also no one, no one is listening to them. I mean, it is different when a Palestinian journalist, you know, does an interview with someone who lost his son. And from when someone outside of Gaza, you know, a white man like you, with beautiful eyes, when you talk to them, people would be relieved. You know, I'm talking to someone from America, you know, he's gonna tell Biden and Trump about our suffering. And of course, of course he will do something, you know, you know, when he tells the story, these people will change their minds and hearts. Israel has been denying the access of international journalists. And this is another devastating thing, you know, for people like you and others, you know, to see Things with their own eyes and because, you know, it gives us hope, you know, when we see our stories out. But we need to see people outside from Gaza. Outside of Gaza, John, I was in Gaza all my life except for the time I was here to study and do my fellowship. The only outsiders I saw in Gaza were foreign journalists during the Israeli assaults and some human rights, you know, activists or maybe attorneys who come to Gaza, maybe to talk to families. But visitors like you, maybe someone who wants, you know, has a friend I have, oh my. Moss' Ab is my friend. I want to visit him in Gaza or I want to, you know, see his family in the refugee camp or maybe I want to do a documentary with them. I've never seen anyone who said, oh, you know, I'm going to visit here, you know, just maybe I want to swim in the sea, you know, I want to see the strawberries. I want to see your father in law, how he takes care of his strawberry farm. And another shocking thing, I have never seen a passenger plane in the sky over Gaza, John, in my life. In Gaza, the only planes I saw in my life are helicopters, drones, F16s. I swear to God, you can ask anyone in Gaza and nowadays to be honest, because, you know, I'm an honest guy. There is a new kind of planes that people are seeing. The aid planes.
- [55:51]
Jon Stewart
Just dropping aid on people.
- [55:53]
Mosab Abu Toha
I mean, the amount of, of aid these planes are dropping doesn't amount to maybe one truck or two trucks.
- [55:59]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [56:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
It's helpless, John. And these countries with all, I don't know, I mean, I don't want to do it, all due respect, but I mean, these countries are, you know, fooling everyone. They say, oh, we, we flew some planes, you know, we are dropping food and blah, blah, blah. This is not making any difference.
- [56:17]
Jon Stewart
No, I think when access is finally granted, I think the world is going to be utterly shocked.
- [56:23]
Mosab Abu Toha
We did have some glimpse into what's happening in Gaza from the aid planes, you know, when some of the journalists, you know, took photos and videos, we did see. So we are not lying. This is not propaganda. We are not Hamas, we are not terrorists. We are not lying. When we said Israel is destroying neighborhoods, when I, when I, every day I was posting that Israel is blowing up houses in Khan Younis, in Bethlehem and Bethany, that was not propaganda. This is what we saw in our eyes. In our eyes, right? And this is what the cameras, the Western media journalists uncovered. It was true. Everything the Palestinian people said, it was true. When we posted about the 15 medics.
- [57:02]
Jon Stewart
Who were killed in Rafah, in March.
- [57:05]
Mosab Abu Toha
We were not lying, John. John, we were not.
- [57:07]
Jon Stewart
They found that. They found the video. And unfortunately, now the Palestinian people are left without any agency and left helpless. And there's sort of an idea here like, oh, well, you could just get them to release this and everything would be done. I don't think people understand just what you guys that are living there have been through and the opportunities to have any agency over your. Over your lives.
- [57:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [57:37]
Jon Stewart
At all.
- [57:38]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah. John. I think what the Palestinian people need immediately is international protection.
- [57:47]
Jon Stewart
That's what I don't understand. Mossad. What happened to international peacekeeping? What happened to just, why is Israel in charge of this? This makes no sense to me. This is the one thing that I just can't wrap my head around. Get an international.
- [58:01]
Mosab Abu Toha
Are you suggesting that Israel has more power than in Israel? Right.
- [58:07]
Jon Stewart
I mean, I don't understand.
- [58:08]
Mosab Abu Toha
You're anti Semite? No. No. You are anti Semite?
- [58:10]
Jon Stewart
No, I've been called worse. I've been called.
- [58:12]
Mosab Abu Toha
You can't suggest. No, you can't suggest that Israel has control over international decisions.
- [58:18]
Jon Stewart
Right. Well, that's a different. You know, but that is the part that's really vexing to me and confusing is how there isn't. And I don't, you know, the United States plays a huge role here. That's not, you know, the United States inability to, you know, we sell them weapons and then tell them to go easy with it. It's like I used to say, it's like your drug dealer selling you a bunch of cocaine and then going like, but don't stay up all night. Like, it's, it's, it's. Boy, it's hard to, to find your way through.
- [58:47]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, I want to say this thing. So when Israel was attacked on October 7 and some crimes were committed against civilians, and this is, this is. This is very clear. What did the world do? They said that Israel has the right to defend itself. But has anyone in the world before October 7th and even after October 7th, did anyone say the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves against the invading and the genocidal Israeli army? What they are committing is a genocide. Not according to me, but so many other human rights organizations and Israeli genocide and Holocaust scholars. So it's not something. A word that we are throwing here and there, although I described it based on what I saw in Gaza at the time and what I knew that Israel was going to do. So when Israel was attacked on October 7, what did the world do? They said. Did they only say that Israel has The right to defend itself or. And did they stop at that? No. Biden visited Israel. Tony Blinken visited Israel many times. The United States sent so many weapons to Israel. Okay, now let's talk about the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have been under occupation for 77 years in the west bank and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians have been attacked militarily by Israel at least for 22 months. Now. Let's say some countries said the Palestinian people have the right, you know, to protection. Okay. Did they do anything about that?
- [60:05]
Jon Stewart
No.
- [60:06]
Mosab Abu Toha
No. Okay. Israel committed war crimes. For example. Let me read this. On July 13, 2025, just a month from now, Israel bombed a group of people collecting water, killing 10 civilians, including six children. That was on the news, by the way. When mainstream finally spoke out, Israel dismissed it as a technical error. On July 17, four days after that, Israel bombed a church, killing three Christians. Because they were Christians, and because this was the church the late Pope Francis used to call daily before he passed away. Israel issued a statement calling it a stray ammunition. On March 23, Israel forces murdered 15 medics. We talked about that in Rafah. At first, they claim the Israelis claimed that the ambulances were suspicious. But after the video emerged on April 15 of April 5, showing clearly marked emergency vehicles under fire, Israel walked back its narrative and it said, you know, calling it a case of professional failures. And there are many other cases, like the World Central Kitchen. Also, they bombed Almagaz refugee camp, I think, later, 2024. And they said we used the wrong ammunition. They said we used the wrong ammunition. So what? Accountability.
- [61:22]
Jon Stewart
One mistake is a mistake. A series of mistakes is a strategy. And I think what you're. What you're saying is these types of crimes are a strategy.
- [61:33]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, that.
- [61:33]
Jon Stewart
It's the strategy that's being deployed against Palestinian people.
- [61:37]
Mosab Abu Toha
But Israel still gets more weapons and it is still covered up by the United States by vetoing many, many UN resolution drafts. You know, that call for a release of the hostages and a ceasefire.
- [61:49]
Jon Stewart
It's funny that you say inside the thing that protects you is. Is remaining your humanity. But it's. It's hard to feel this situation as anything but an utter failure of humanity to. To step in and end what is an absolute disgusting display and. And horrific. And it's. It's just hard not to view it as an utter failure of our shared.
- [62:20]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [62:20]
Jon Stewart
Sense of. Of purpose and being. And I'm. And I'm terribly sorry for what your family is going through and the conditions that have created this for you.
- [62:34]
Mosab Abu Toha
If I can just mention one last Thing, you know, just to honor the memory of some of my relatives who were killed in the past 22 months. In two airstrikes, Israel killed more than 50 people from my, from my family and my mother's family. One airstrike in. In October 2023, Israel killed 30 members of my family. My father's cousin, his wife and their children and their grandchildren. 30 people, entire family, except for two survivors. One of the, one of the, these 30 people were my first cousin, Tahrir. She was killed with her disabled husband and their five children, all of them under 15. In another airstrike, a separate airstrike in October 2024, a year from that, Israel carried out an airstrike on my mother's aunt's house. That aunt was my great aunt, Fatima Dibis, who I used to call my grandmother because my grandmother passed away when I was seven years old. So my great aunt was killed along with 14 of her family members. One of them was a seven year old first cousin of mine. So, John, this genocide that I'm talking about is not only carried out against the Palestinian people as a people, but it's also carried out against a population, 70% of whom are refugees. And we talked about that. That's another level of the genocide. There is a very, very important level of the genocide that I rarely hear anyone talking about, which is that Israel is wiping out entire families. So maybe, you know, you are living in, I think in New Jersey or New York, you live with your wife and children and maybe your father is living in another state, your uncle is living maybe in Europe, I don't know. But in Gaza, John, when a family house is bombed, it means a whole generation is gone. I just want to give you one example that the western media did not cover. I talked to one of the survivors of massacre that was carried out in December 2023, and that's called Juha family. Maybe it's shocking, maybe it's not, but 80 people around 80 people were killed in that airstrike. So the thing is not only that 80 people were killed, but I want to show you who the 80 people were. I made a family tree here, John. This is the grandfather, this is the grandfather, These are his children. They were killed with their wives and these are their names. They were killed with their children and their grandchildren. Okay? Then the grandfather himself, he had another brother who was already dead, but the grandfather, you know, he wasn't alive. But this brother of the grandfather, he lost two sons and their children, the grandchildren here, and that's the Last grandfather so three grandparents. These are about 80 people. So the person I talked to, his name is Anas. I talked to him on the phone two weeks ago, just, you know, to help me make the family tree. And you know what? He told me he was going out to buy some food for his kids. That was December. There were some shops at the time. And he told me, Mus', Ab, I was out buying some, trying to find some food for my wife and kids. Someone told him, there is an airstrike in your neighborhood. And then he started running to the neighborhood, and he found the two houses of the family leveled to the ground. He lost his wife and their two children along with the whole family. This is one number two. He told me they were able to bury only 50 out of the 80. So 30 people have been under the rubble since December 2023, including his wife and two children. So that's one of his dreams, to go back and find whatever remained of the bodies of his wife and children, to bury him. John, these are stories. And this is only one story, by the way. I swear to God. I have other stories that I talk to people there just to confirm the names and the ages. These are mostly children. Mostly children. So I met two girls in Egypt. I evacuated Gaza in December 2023. So I lived in an apartment in Egypt. And I don't know, there was a miracle because in November, Israel bombed a house in Nusayirat. On November 26, or maybe 20, I think it was 23rd. I'm not sure about the date. I forgot. I was not prepared to talk about this story. So Israel bombed the house where a friend of mine, a fellow teacher, was staying with his mother and father, his wife and children, and four sisters. In that airstrike, the father, the mother, my friend Ismail, were killed. Ismail was killed along with his two children. His wife survived. She's still in Gaza. Two sisters were killed. Two sisters survived. When I was in Gaza, I met the two sisters because it was about the time I was released. And I went to the hospital to see a doctor for my wounds, and I saw the two sisters just freshly surviving the airstrike. I left Gaza in December, and it was a miracle because the two sisters were evacuated to Egypt and they happened to be staying in a hospital just two blocks away from where I was staying. And I met them there at the hospital, and they became family. One thing they told me, John, they told me, brother Mus', Ab, do you have any friends who could help us go back to Gaza? That was January 2024. Do you have any way, you know, to send us back to Gaza? Because they were, you know, recovering and they said, we want to go back to Gaza. I told them, why? Why do you want to leave Gaza? People are struggling to leave. People are paying money to leave. And they both told me, one of them is a pharmacist, the other is, is a teacher. ISRA and Allah Abu Ghabin, they are in Egypt right now. Told him, why do you want to go back to Egypt? Sorry, why do you want to go back to Gaza? And they told me, they told me the body of our father, the body of ismail and a 16 year old sister, we're still under the rubble and we want to go back and dig through and bury them. This is what they thought. I was shocked. And their bodies, until today, or whatever remained of them are under the rubble. And I have a long poem in my collection, Forest of Noise called under the Rubble. This is maybe the most, the expression, the phrase that I say. Most of the time, everything is under the rubble, John. People, people are under the rubble. Our books under the rubble, our clothes under the rubble. Now our cities are under the rubble.
- [69:57]
Jon Stewart
Mossad, thank you for sharing your, your witness, your testimony and your above all humanity with us on this. I can't tell you how much I wish for your pain and their pain and the pain in the region to be alleviated in, in some measure as a testament to humanity being worthwhile as a species to be protected. But thank you and I'm terribly sorry that this conversation had to take place.
- [70:39]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah, thank you so much, John. And I pray for peace and more importantly for justice for the Palestinian people for the plight that they have been going through for decades. And I pray that, you know, there is a power that's going to stop all of this, but I'm sure that this power is not, it's not coming from the outer space. I hope that the international community would step in and send a peace force, a protection force, whatever it is, you know, to protect the civilian population, the people. I mean, 70% of these people are refugees, 50% are children. What is more reason, Even the people who try to go to Gaza on the boats, you know, they were taken from the sea. These people were going to Gaza, not to Israel. Why do you take these people on the boats and medley, why do you take them from the sea to Israel? They were not going to Israel, they were going to Gaza.
- [71:31]
Jon Stewart
Right?
- [71:32]
Mosab Abu Toha
So even the civilians, the individuals who tried to do something, they were taken, they were kidnapped from their boats and taken to Israel. These people did not want to go to Israel. They wanted to go to people in Gaza, see them, help them, whatever. Every means have been tried and the world has failed. The Palestinian people. Yes, it's very heartbreaking, you know, for me.
- [71:54]
Jon Stewart
Yes.
- [71:54]
Mosab Abu Toha
You know, when I read, you know, the diaries of Anne Frank, you know, Premo Levy's survival in Auschwitz Night by Ilove. When I read these things, John, you know, I read them in the past, but I mean, I sometimes ask myself, what if, you know, Anne Frank was writing these diaries every day and she was sending these diaries in the new to be published in the New York Times, the Washington Post, you know, to be read on Fox News or on cnn, you know, and maybe she had the chance to do an interview with you while she was still, you know, hiding with her family.
- [72:26]
Jon Stewart
Right.
- [72:26]
Mosab Abu Toha
And writing what is happening. You know, just imagine Iluviesel was. Was writing about how he was standing in line for the Nazis, you know, to pick him and his father, you know, from the lion to go to the gas chambers. So imagine if these people were doing that. What lesson did we learn? What lesson did we learn from the Holocaust?
- [72:47]
Jon Stewart
Yeah, Mosab, it's. It's the question. It's the question of the decade, of the century, of the millennium. What lessons do we learn from these Holocausts, from these tragedies?
- [73:00]
Mosab Abu Toha
Yeah.
- [73:01]
Jon Stewart
Thank you so much for joining us. It's Mosab Abu Toha, a poet and an author and a humanitarian. And I hope to speak with you again soon.
- [73:14]
Mosab Abu Toha
Thank you so much, John. Bless you.
- [73:20]
Jon Stewart
Okay. I really don't know how to end other than I hope you found that episode meaningful. You may not agree with all of it. You may think there should have been space for other voices, but I think it's important to bear certain witness in its. In its purest form of that. And I don't know if there is a purer form than somebody holding up pages and pages of family trees that have. That have disappeared from this earth. So we will be back next week, obviously. Thanks to lead producer Loren Walker, producer Brittany Momedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Patola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Gillian Spear, and our executive producers Chris McShane and Katie Gray. And thank you for listening. The weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy central podcast, is produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. Paramount Podcasts.