Tariff-ying Times with Pete Buttigieg

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Tariff-ying Times with Pete Buttigieg"

The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart
Episode: Tariff-ying Times with Pete Buttigieg
Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart, host Jon Stewart engages in a profound discussion with Pete Buttigieg, the former Secretary of Transportation. The conversation delves deep into the complexities of current trade policies, the impact of tariffs on the economy, government efficiency, and the strategic direction of the Democratic Party in navigating these turbulent times.

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Transitioning from Government Service

[00:27] Jon Stewart:
"Today, we welcome our guest, former Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg. Pete, welcome back! Noticed your new beard—some time off?"

[04:25] Pete Buttigieg:
"Leaving government felt akin to redeployment—sudden and total. Managing a department with 55,000 people is intense, and stepping away reveals the personal side of life we've been missing."

Pete reflects on the abrupt transition from a high-paced government role to civilian life, highlighting the challenges of adjusting and the newfound responsibilities at home.

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Impact of Tariffs and Trade Policies

[08:25] Dax Shepard:
"How are you absorbing this new tariff regime? It seems reckless."

[09:34] Pete Buttigieg:
"Tariffs are a tool, but the current application lacks coherence. A recent conservative think tank discovered basic math errors in their tariff calculations, undermining the intended economic advantages."

Pete emphasizes the detrimental effects of poorly implemented tariffs, noting their role as de facto taxes that burden consumers and create economic uncertainty.

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Economic Repercussions and Job Market Concerns

[11:56] Pete Buttigieg:
"The immediate impact is rising prices—tariffs act as a tax. Moreover, the looming recession exacerbates job insecurity, especially for those living paycheck to paycheck."

Pete highlights the dual threat of inflation and potential recession, stressing that the tariff-induced price hikes disproportionately affect the most vulnerable populations.

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Critique of Current Administration's Tariff Strategy

[15:41] Pete Buttigieg:
"Tariffs are intertwined with outdated Republican policies like tax cuts for the wealthy. The administration seems to rely on tariffs to compensate for reduced tax revenues from the rich, leading to economic strain on ordinary Americans."

Pete criticizes the administration's tariff strategy as inconsistent and self-serving, aimed more at political maneuvering than genuine economic benefit.

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Government Efficiency and Bureaucratic Challenges

[24:52] Pete Buttigieg:
"The time it takes to build infrastructure—whether roads, subways, or broadband—is indefensible. Streamlining processes without compromising fairness is essential."

Pete discusses the bureaucratic inefficiencies that hinder infrastructure development, advocating for reforms that balance speed with thorough oversight.

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The Role of Government in Protecting Freedom and Providing Services

[32:42] Pete Buttigieg:
"Government exists to provide essential services, protect citizens from unrestrained entities, and constrain itself to prevent overreach. Achieving this balance is crucial for a functioning democracy."

Pete outlines the fundamental purposes of government, emphasizing the need for it to safeguard freedoms while efficiently delivering services.

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Strategic Communication and Democratic Values

[38:47] Pete Buttigieg:
"The lack of coherent communication within the Democratic Party hampers our ability to present a unified vision. We need to rethink our messaging, tone, and the platforms we engage with to effectively reach and resonate with diverse audiences."

Pete stresses the importance of strategic communication in revitalizing the Democratic Party, advocating for a more thoughtful and inclusive approach.

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Generational Change and Leadership Renewal

[44:31] Pete Buttigieg:
"Generational turnover is imperative. Leaders must make room for new voices to bring fresh perspectives and drive meaningful progress."

Pete advocates for leadership renewal, drawing parallels with international counterparts who successfully integrate new generations into governance.

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Media Presence and Engaging Diverse Audiences

[58:37] Pete Buttigieg:
"We must establish a presence across varied media platforms, including conservative spaces like Fox News and emerging digital channels. Engaging authentically where people are is key to broadening our reach."

Pete underscores the necessity of meeting audiences where they are, utilizing diverse media channels to disseminate progressive ideas effectively.

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Closing Remarks

As the episode concludes, Pete Buttigieg reiterates his commitment to fostering governmental reforms, enhancing economic policies, and strengthening democratic institutions. The conversation leaves listeners with a nuanced understanding of the intricate interplay between trade policies, government efficacy, and political strategy in shaping the nation's future.

[64:37] Jon Stewart:
"Thank you, Pete Buttigieg, for joining us today. Your insights are invaluable, and we look forward to seeing the positive changes you envision for our country."

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Notable Quotes

• Pete Buttigieg [09:34]:
  "Tariffs are a tool, but the current application lacks coherence. They act as a tax that burdens consumers and creates economic uncertainty."

• Pete Buttigieg [15:41]:
  "Tariffs are intertwined with outdated Republican policies like tax cuts for the wealthy, leading to economic strain on ordinary Americans."

• Pete Buttigieg [32:42]:
  "Government exists to provide essential services, protect citizens from unrestrained entities, and constrain itself to prevent overreach."

• Pete Buttigieg [44:31]:
  "Generational turnover is imperative. Leaders must make room for new voices to bring fresh perspectives and drive meaningful progress."

• Pete Buttigieg [58:37]:
  "We must establish a presence across varied media platforms to effectively reach and resonate with diverse audiences."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges posed by current trade policies and government inefficiencies. Through Pete Buttigieg's articulate perspectives, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of the need for strategic reforms, effective communication, and leadership renewal to navigate the nation's economic and political landscape.

Transcript

[Kristen Bell]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Kristen Bell]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Kristen Bell]

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[Dax Shepard]

Buy your car with Carvana today. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the weekly show podcast. My name is John Stewart. It is, I'm taping this April 8th. I always tell you now the day that we're taping this because of the velocity by which change occurs in this nation, which is becoming great again by leaps and bounds, you may say to yourself, okay, occasionally we take a step or two back, but clearly moving in the right direction. So this comes out Thursday. So by then we could be at war with China or more likely, I think President Trump will do the thing that he always does. And I use this analogy with Rahm Emanuel on the show, but I think it's instructive to say it again here. I used to have a dog who would eat things on his own volition. This was not, he was not encouraged to do so. He would eat grass and sticks and whatever he could find outside. Inevitably, he had a delicate stomach. He is my dog, after all. That's how we knew we were each other's soulmates. The way I process lactose is the way he processed everything that he would eat from the outside, he would become nauseous, he would vomit. And then before I had a chance to get the towels, he would lap it up, clean it up. And then he would look at me like, hey, huh buddy, I did you a favor, right? Can I get a treat? And it would always say like, no, that was your, you made a mess. And yes, you did clean it up. But I gotta tell you something, you didn't clean it completely up. You left damage, residue, things like that. And that is what Trump will do. I, he will come out and be like, oh, the nuclear bomb I dropped on the economy, it worked. Vietnam has decided that they're going to make a deal like nobody's ever seen before. And that's going to be the way that this thing off ramps, you would imagine. Because these guys are, I mean, between the signal chats and the trillions in the economy and firing people at the FAA and nuclear commissions, they are forgetting the first rule of authoritarian regimes, which is you kind of have to get shit done right That's, I think that's the whole point, isn't it? We, we let them disappear people because they do shit, right? Is that, is that how things go? Then you get to wear. I'm waiting for Trump to come out and wear the, the jacket with the epaulettes or whatever it is that those guys like to do, come up with the nickname. But you got to live up to that end of the bargain, from what I understand. But it's been very interesting and we've been spending a lot of time talking with some Democrats about where they see this thing going and their frustrations. And there's someone that I really wanted to talk to about it because I find that he's so articulate and well versed. He's been an executive as a mayor, he's been within administrations. He's well versed in a lot of different aspects of it. And he's one of the few people who's able to articulate those experiences in such a great way. So I'm just going to get to our guest for today's program. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today, very excited. Our former Secretary of Transportation, Mr. Pete Buttigieg is joining us now. Pete, look at you with the scruff. What are you not working for a month or two? And you're growing out the beard now.

[Kristen Bell]

You started it.

[Dax Shepard]

That is, that is true.

[Kristen Bell]

No, I, Yeah, you know, it's, it is very rare in my former life that I could go more than a day without shaving. So we, we just had a little family vacation. I took advantage and we go with it for a little while. We'll see.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice. What is, you know, I'm always curious, leaving the government in the way that you, you guys had. Right. It's, it's a incredibly intense experience to work with when you're, when you're in the government at that high a level and you're managing things at that high a level, and then that moment when you kind of pack up and leave, what is that, what is that feeling like? I assume in some ways almost maybe like the experience you had leaving the military or, you know, you're sort of, now, you've been, you've been running at 120 miles an hour, and then suddenly it's.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned. I mean, redeployment's the only thing I could compare it to professionally. That was so sudden and so total. I mean, this is a department with 55,000 people. Anything happening anywhere in the country or sometimes anywhere in the world could be on your desk in a matter of minutes. And then one day, you know, it's 12 o'clock and you're done and you just like, I guess, I guess I should feed the dog now. It's a strange feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

You hadn't fed the dog while you were working.

[Kristen Bell]

I was already feeding the dog. But suddenly all these things around the house start to loom larger. Right. You realize all these things you've been neglecting. Obviously I was leaning a lot on my husband Shastin the whole time and a wonderful family that as anytime you're in a job like this supports you and makes it possible, then you realize you're kind of making up for lost time. Suddenly it's like, you know, it's my turn to do the laundry for a very, very long time after the way the last four years went. But it's been great. I'm spending a lot more time with the kids. They're three and a half right now and it's a three and a half great time to be, but it's a very hands on time. Like it's, you know, it's demanding. So I'm living into that. And at the same time, of course, you don't stop caring about everything you used to work on and everything you still care about as a citizen.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's gotta be so hard to have had your hands in that pie and to have had some control over it and then to watch things happen where you no longer have any agency in that must be very frustrating.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. I mean, it cuts both ways though, right? I mean, the other thing is you don't have. I no longer have to turn the ringer of my phone on, you know, off of vibrate so I can get the call in the middle of the night.

[Dax Shepard]

You can silence those notifications now.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, yeah. Which it took me a while to realize that I was actually allowed to do that as long as I knew where Tess and the kids were. But yeah, of course you still feel a huge ownership of things. I mean, just after dropping off the kids, I saw a road project going on here in Michigan and stopped to talk to the guys because it was one of the projects that we funded. I want to see how it was going. And yeah, I'm very invested in it. But on the other hand, if something goes wrong with it that's not on my desk anymore, I care about it, which is nice. But I think all of us are at the same time obviously just very, very alarmed about what's happening around the country. And I think the strange thing for those of us who've left the cabinet or left government is being just as concerned as ever, but obviously having a.

[Dax Shepard]

Very, very different role right now in terms of the role in the house. I found, like, after I left the show and was home for a bit, that apparently I was unaware of all the protocol in the house. So everything I did that I thought was incredibly helpful was like, actually, it's. That's not the way we do things around here. Oh, is that what you're going to do with the laundry? You're going to bring it down there and do it that way? Because that's not the way we do things around here. Like, in the same way that you get onboarded into the government, did you have to get onboarded back into the house where they're like, actually, that's not what we do at dinner. We do something different?

[Kristen Bell]

Oh, yeah, There's a whole fight this morning because the kids were fighting over how many toys they were allowed to bring in the van with them while I was taking them to school. And it turned out to like, dad, I'm Papa Chasten's dad. I was informed that dad had established a clear policy on this and they were litigating it between each other. I was not helping with my intervention until I understood that there was a rule. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Turns out the standard operating procedures were not written down. But the kids will remember. They will never let you forget anything. Any daylight between one parent and the other. On the teeniest policy thing about, I don't know, it could be anything, toys, candy. Yeah, they hold you accountable.

[Dax Shepard]

You thought international diplomacy was difficult, but trying to figure out the toy situation in the van, that can create. By the way, speaking of tantrums, how are you absorbing this new tariff regime in the world? Look, I would imagine you wouldn't argue the point that the idea of renegotiating certain trade barriers or those types of things wouldn't be a worthy pursuit. I imagine you would take issue with the table overturning tantrum way of doing it. So how are you absorbing this general shock?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, of course. Look, I grew up in Northern Indiana. I live in Michigan. Like, I get what the wrong kind of trade has done to the industrial Midwest because I grew up surrounded by collapsing factories. And part of that was because of technology, Part of that was because of automation, Part of that was because of trade and the way it was handled. And we spent the last 30 years coming to a new understanding as a country about what we need to do. And sometimes that means tariffs. Look, the last administration, there were tariffs. But tariffs are supposed to be a tool, a political and economic tool in order to get some kind of advantage for the people you serve. This is not that. Because in order for it to work, first of all, you have to know what you're doing. I mean, it was a conservative think tank just found out that there was just a basic math error in how they came up with these numbers.

[Dax Shepard]

No, they divided the deficit and then the goods. And isn't that reciprocal tariffs? Isn't that how it's done?

[Kristen Bell]

It's not. It turns out, oh, oops. That actually matters when trillions of dollars depend on, first of all, what you do and secondly, how you do it. Is it consistent? Do people understand? People are making decisions right this minute. Small businesses are deciding whether to go through with an order or not. Businesses of all sizes are deciding whether to make an investment or not, whether to hire somebody or not. You know, I already talk to a lot of people. I spend a day, a week at the University of Chicago talking to students. A bunch of them, these seniors are graduating, got job offers, then they got the job offers withdrawn. Right. There was already tons of uncertainty about hiring. That was before the tariffs. And that's true whether you're a college graduate looking to get a job at a bank or something. It's true whether you're hoping as a construction worker that a project is going to go forward near you. Investments, not just numbers on a page. These are decisions that very quickly go to our everyday lives. So the biggest things I'm watching is one, of course, how hard is this going to hit us in terms of prices? That's the immediate thing. I mean, the tariff is a tax. The price we pay goes up.

[Dax Shepard]

Will it be prices, though? Because as you collapse the economy, nobody will purchase anything. So maybe the way this works is, sure, it raises the prices of certain things, but what if we won't buy anything if consumption goes down so drastically?

[Kristen Bell]

That gets you to number two. The other thing I'm really watching is the jobs part, right? What's this gonna do to people's jobs? And you know, it's hard enough to have those price increases if you continue to have a full employment economy, one where more or less. It's true that if you want a job, you can get a job. It's a whole other thing to deal with that kind of elevated prices, inflation at the same time as you're dealing with a recession. And now a recession has gone from being viewed as Pretty unlikely a year ago or even three months ago to being viewed as better than a coin flip by most of the people who have spent their lives figuring out whether we're likely to go into recession or not. It is a frightening cocktail, especially for people who are living close to the edge, who are paycheck to paycheck, who weren't sure whether they're going to be able to. Right. Look, if you're a billionaire, if you're like most of the people in the President's cabinet right now, or a multimillionaire like most members of the US Congress, then, okay, this may not be your problem overnight.

[Dax Shepard]

You could ride it out. If you're a billionaire, you probably ride it out.

[Kristen Bell]

You'll probably be okay, right? Yeah, maybe. But for so many people, this is not a game. This is not just something that's of interest because you like watching the news like this is people's lives. And obviously with the stock market taking the turn that it has last few days, that's people's retirements. And that's not just, you know, people sitting on giant trust funds. That's ordinary people have been saving up all their lives.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you find it interesting, you know, when you see certain interviews or things, or the reporters go out into the world, the people that are oftentimes most vulnerable to it seem to be the ones that are most okay with it. So it's, you know, when they talk to people that are in, you know, the, the shrimp boats down in Louisiana or the, like you say, certain factory towns in Indiana. I think there's a certain, a feeling amongst them that the system is so rigged and we've been screwed over for so long that fuck it, like burn it down. And, and I find that to be, it's almost faith based. They have faith that, that, oh, he knows what he's doing and this is exactly how it's supposed to go. Now someone else might look at it and think you're not really giving us a coherent explanation as to how the manufacturing is going to come back. It's certainly not magic. People have to trust to reinvest that kind of money. And look, when manufacturing went from 30% of the economy to 10% of the economy. Yeah, that, that's a problem. What are we aiming to bring back? Do you, do you have a sense of what the internal logic is? Are, are we fighting a war that was fought, you know, in the 50s and, and it's, it's, it's not the future, it's the past. In your mind, how Is this calculation going well?

[Kristen Bell]

I think the spirit of it is they want to turn back the clock. Right? That's the motto, Make America great again. I think the reality is it's never about again when you're talking about how to survive and thrive in an economy that's changing like it is right now, when you're facing the way China is right now, when you're facing AI and things like this. But I think their spirit is about, yeah, let's just get things back to where they were. But the mechanics of it are all over the place, I think, because you have a bunch of people in the same White House, same administration, same team who ferociously disagree with each other. I mean, you see the latest things, this fight between Peter Navarro and Elon Musk, but it's gonna be some new version of this every day. Look, part of what you have is very old fashioned Republican policy even now, right. It is about tax cuts for the rich. And quietly, that is still probably the number one in dollar terms. The number one economic policy that they're working on right now is the trillions of dollars.

[Dax Shepard]

Are they still going through?

[Kristen Bell]

Totally, yeah. It didn't get a lot of attention.

[Dax Shepard]

But the $5 trillion, that's still going through.

[Kristen Bell]

And let's be clear, there's a relationship here. Right? And a few of them, in moments of weakness have admitted it. Cause you might think, okay, tax cuts for the rich, that's old fashioned Republican policy.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. The dogma, the trickle down there, baby.

[Kristen Bell]

And then tariffs, that's the populist Trumpism, that's blowing it all up. Right. And those two schools of thought are duking it out. But there is a certain connection here, which is tariffs are a. Taxes bring in revenue. And there are clearly some people in this White House who think that they can use the money they're going to get from the stuff that we're buying at Target that cost more, that have that tax on it. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kristen Bell]

To substitute for some of the revenue we're not going to get out of the taxes on the wealthy that they're moving to cut. Right. So I would not regard these things as total.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my God. It almost seems like they have a plan.

[Kristen Bell]

Right. There is a relationship here. There's a reason why some conservative Republicans who never like tariffs might swallow them right now. Because if their number one priority is tax cuts for the rich and they can look to Trump to deliver that, they know he will, because he did before. And you got another group who are saying, look, our priority is tariffs, they can get that through maybe the grand bargain that's being made here, and some of them, again, have talked in these terms is, okay, basically, if you look at the tax burden of how the things they're still willing to have, I mean, look, obviously they're cutting a lot of stuff. They're cutting the cancer research and the people who answer the phones at Social Security and VA staff, Right? But the stuff they're not gonna cut, like national defense, has to get paid for somehow.

[Dax Shepard]

Not only not gonna cut, he just proposed a trillion dollar defense budget. Trillion.

[Kristen Bell]

So how are you gonna do that? Well, if less of that is being funded by taxes on the wealthiest and on corporate profits, then more of it, at least proportionally, will be funded by everybody going to the store and paying more because the tariffs, which is happening literally this week, and then the rest is deficits.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, as you watch this as someone who has. Look, McKinsey, and you understand that the consultant side of it, you understand the mechanics of it, are you seeing the matrix on this from them? Because one of the things that I think is whether they're right or wrong, people make bets on. You know, every administration has their idea of how they're going to stimulate the economy, how they're going to raise the money. The one thing that I've been almost more shocked at by anything is an inability to coherently communicate what the idea is and what the plan is, other than everything's unfair to the United States and we're not going to take it. We're not going to be the world's whipping boy, even though for the most part this is the world we created post World War II and policed. But, but no longer will we be the patsy. But there's, I've heard very little in the way that you're describing it now, consistent logic.

[Kristen Bell]

Why bother with that, right? I mean, for them, I tell the people it's not their problem. They don't view an honest conversation about the finer points of policy as something they need to slow down and do. They're right. Move fast and break shit, do it our way. And if some people get hurt along the way, okay. But it's all in the service of the bigger vision. But, yeah, I don't think, honestly, I don't think they believe that they have to justify what they're doing to the American people, even to the people who voted for them.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, we've got to take a quick break. We'll be right back. We're back, Pete.

[Kristen Bell]

They just don't think that that's their Problem? Why do you think they're so hostile to the media? Right. Hostile to the President.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you talking about the fake news lamestream media?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. Right. I mean, there's very little interest in working through, you know, one person admitted a mistake, right. Where they like sent the wrong guy to El Salvador.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kristen Bell]

And what did they do? They fired the guy who admitted it, the lawyer who admitted, I don't know if this is a man or woman, but that person got fired. Right. So as they screw up along the way, they fire the wrong people at the national, the NNSA that keeps our nuclear weapons safe. And then they hire them back real quick.

[Dax Shepard]

They faa, same thing.

[Kristen Bell]

Accidentally send a buyout email to all the air traffic controllers in the middle of an air traffic control shortage. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Insane.

[Kristen Bell]

Right. They send the battle plans to the wrong guy on the wrong text app. Right. And they randomly put a tariff on a country. It doesn't have anybody. It's not even a country. It's just an island with some penguins. These screw ups are not something that causes introspection. To be clear, every time I've been in government, whether when I was mayor of my hometown or when I was Secretary of Transportation, obviously there were things that we did not get right. Always there are things you don't get right. These are human beings doing their best. Sometimes you don't get it right. If you believe that the press will hold you accountable, then you know that when you don't get something right, you have to talk about it, think about it, learn from it, do better next time. If on the other hand, you think you can just beat your chest and say it's all fake news, don't believe your lying eyes. No problem. You know, the leader knows best. Then why bother going through the finer points of, you know, making sure that all the places you're putting tariffs on are actually countries or like checking your math once or twice before you throw the markets into total turmoil. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Is it? And I imagine it's got to be mind blowingly frustrating to watch shit like that go down. You know, stock market's tanking, $10 trillion go down, and the Democrats are like, we can't even wear a tan suit. If we wear a tan suit, the, the world goes bonkers. It's the lead story for a week. And, and these guys like you say, my favorite was rfk, was he was talking about the huge cuts to Health and Human Services and all the people and, and how they had to rehire people. And he goes, we always knew that 20% of those job cuts were going to be wrong, but we always knew the part of the plan was always, we were just going to rehire 20% of the people. You're like, what if you took an extra two days? But, like, that's what I can't figure out. What is the rush? It's been two months. What about trying to negotiate trade deals prior to killing the hostage? Well, and then asking for ransom? It's. I don't get it.

[Kristen Bell]

There's a logic here, too, right? On the trade deals, especially if you make it completely chaotic, then the only organizing principle is the man himself. And then all that matters is which country, which industry, which company got to the man and convinced him or flattered him or whatever it took got him to give them some mercy. So the countries are all deciding, right? If you think about it, this is part of how consolidating power works. Like, there is. There is a sort of logic to this. The more messy you make it, the more they can't appeal to you, saying, oh, you published this guidance on how the tariffs were going to work. And if you really interpret it the right way, you should give us a break. It's going to be, I'm going to find Trump, I'm going to find him, I'm going to appeal, whether it's a country, a company or an industry, and think of a way to say, you ought to make an exception for us. And the more it works that way, the more it's total chaos. Except you get to the man, you get to the king. Right? The more power he personally has. But I've got to believe, first of all, obviously, that's a terrible way to make policy, and it's terribly unfair, obviously, really. But also, I got to believe, definitely most liberals, I think, most conservatives, thoughtful conservatives I've ever talked to, and any libertarian gets that literally the entire point of this country is that we don't have a king, that we don't have some guy who, how he feels in the morning or what he decides to do or whether he got off the wrong side of the bed this morning is going to decide your fate. But actually, we have rules and we have things we all have to negotiate over and fight over, and there are winners and losers, but we come together in this process. Now, to your earlier point about people who looked at this in shrug, I think the process we inherited sucks. Let's be clear. This is not about going back to what we had before. When you destroy something, you destroy everything that was good and everything that was bad about it. And that's part of what I'm thinking about as I think about the giant federal bureaucracy that I operated in for four years, trying to get stuff done as a Secretary of Transportation. Right. I'm not here to say that everything should be put back the way it was in 2024 or 2015 or 2000, for that matter. It is maddeningly difficult to get something actually built in this country. It is difficult across the federal government to properly reward your best performers and to remove your worst performers. Like, these things are real, right? I'm not saying they're not.

[Dax Shepard]

And to incentivize progress.

[Kristen Bell]

Totally. Right. These are real problems. The challenge now becomes, especially for my party, which is transfixed in horror by what we see all around us, is to have an answer that's better than, this is terrible. Let's just go back to where we were before.

[Dax Shepard]

Better than noblesse oblige and the right of kings. You're saying we need a process that's not necessarily the whims of the individual. So have you thought about that process? And look, in transportation, you guys had this bill that was going to build all these charging stations, and by the time you guys left, 100 had been built, and that's about it. Have you thought about the things that you would change within that process to make building more efficient and more productive?

[Kristen Bell]

Totally. I mean, look, the amount of time that it has taken in this country to build a mile of subway, a stretch of road, a clean energy project.

[Dax Shepard]

Rural broadband.

[Kristen Bell]

Absolutely.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

It's indefensible now. It got the way it is for lots of reasons, many of which are reasons that I think are noble. But it's still. The outcome is indefensible, and that's what we've got to rewire as a country. We gotta get back to basics.

[Dax Shepard]

So what is it in those processes, Pete? Because that's what I'm interested in. When I look at. For Democrats, it seems like if they want to solve a problem, that solution has to solve every problem. In other words, we need rural broadband. But the solution also has to solve inequality, racial inequality, climate change. You know, we have to load it up with everything before we can start. Is that something that you've identified?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's right to pay attention to those things because we know that how you build a road or where you put a train could make those things better or it could make them worse. Of course you're going to pay attention to fairness, you're going to pay attention to climate. You're Going to, you know that, that should be part of the picture. But we've reached a point now where any one piece in even a process that has thousands of steps and billions of dollars, any one piece can wreck the whole thing. This is why it's hard to get housing built. This is why it's hard to get transportation infrastructure built. And I mean without getting into all the guts of things like the Administrative Procedures act. Right. There is a sort of a.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's get into the guts, baby, come on.

[Kristen Bell]

I mean there was a paperwork machine, right? That again, with the best of intentions. And look, the basic intention is to make sure everybody can be heard. So in order to build a complicated project, you have to go through a process where everybody can weigh in and then you gotta go through all of that before you can move. There are ways to work through that though, where people get heard and it doesn't delay everything. We did it, we started doing things like again, I don't wanna get super weedsy here, but pre award authority ways to, if you're trying to build high speed rail or something, start getting things built and getting the dollars moving even while we're working out the finer points of the contract. As long as we can agree on a certain amount of risk between let's say the state Department of Transportation is building something and the federal government that's providing the money. Right. And there are ways to do that, agreements within agreements or other arrangements. But look, some of it's going to take, it is going to take some introspection in my party and in our country to come back to what are the priorities? Because it can't be. I mean, letting the perfect be the enemy of the good I think has cost us in the extreme in many ways as a country.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. If I were to sum it up in sort of the only experience I've had in working down there is mostly kind of VA stuff and watching how that goes, it seems as though the government has a bit of an adversarial relationship to its clients, which is the people in that. It basically in, in setting up, you know, protocols that are going to weed out waste, fraud and abuse. Those protocols create waste, fraud and abuse. In other words, you treat whatever 2 to 3% of fraudulent or wasteful or abusive practices are going to occur. You're going to make the other 97% of the people go through an incredibly inefficient, not commonsensical process. Wouldn't that maybe the main thing is to just flip that and say this will no longer be adversarial. And what we'll do is we'll bolster on the back end the look for waste, fraud and abuse so that we don't delay everything by two and a half years to set up all these ridiculous obstacles. Would that be a simplistic version of that?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the challenge there is, it does take some political will because the more risk you take, the more there will be some mistakes.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Kristen Bell]

One of the first things I said to my staff when I came in, when we're, you know, we're trying to move a trillion dollars, about half of that is the Department of Transportation. So half a trillion dollars through the economy. We've got 55,000 people working on every facet of transportation. Everything you do is important, which means when you make mistakes, which you will, because we're people, some of those mistakes will matter. And the most important thing will be to make sure that that mistake is not repeated. It won't be beating everybody up. It won't be a blame game, it won't be finger pointing. But you have to be ready to spot those mistakes and be very transparent about them right away so that we can figure out what happened, learn from it and move on. That does take political will because the moment there is some fuck up somewhere, there will be press stories and grandstanding politicians.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, what a whole.

[Kristen Bell]

I don't know. Perish the thought. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't understand.

[Kristen Bell]

But there's a real cost to that. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

But as you watch this administration bulldoze through all of that, and I watched, by the way, George W. Bush do the same thing, it always was shocking to me. You know, the Democrats would have a super majority in the Senate and they'd have a majority in the House and they still would have trouble getting some things done. Whereas, you know, George Bush could get whatever the fuck he wanted without having any. As you watch them bulldoze that, do you find that there is a ground that you can take that isn't so risk adverse that you paralyze the entire workings of the government?

[Kristen Bell]

I think there might be. And that's what I'm getting at when I say that this is not about going back to what we had. Right. So the FDR era, kind of New Deal federal government as we have known it our whole lives, is gone. Or at least it will be gone by the time these guys are done with it. The international order economically and security wise, the post World War II transatlantic security framework, the assumptions around how alliances work and how the US Fits in With them. And obviously, assumptions around trade as we've known it for my entire adult life is gone or it will be gone by the time these guys are done with it. So it's time to take a breath and say, okay, are we really, if and when we get a chance to put it back together, are we just going to scramble back to create the closest copy we can to the thing they just smashed, or are we going to design something a little bit better? And to me, what that looks like is starting with an understanding of what government is for. And for me, government is for making you more free. And it does that in three ways. One, it provides services from national defense to sewage. Two, it gets in the way of anybody who might make you unfree. Let's say a bank, a cable company, a railroad, your neighbor, anybody who, if.

[Dax Shepard]

There wasn't a segregator.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. If there wasn't somebody to stand up to them, they would harm you. Okay, so that's number two. And then three, really important is to constrain itself. So if government does those three things, it provides basic services, it constrains people who can hurt you or harm your freedom, and it constrains itself from hurting you or hurting your freedom. Then you have a government that actually works for people, and around that, you can build an economy that works for people.

[Dax Shepard]

Which one of those do you think would be the most challenging? Because I think right now, you know, people would say government can't regulate itself, it can't constrain itself.

[Kristen Bell]

Well, I actually think that's where the common ground starts. Because again, whether you're. If you're so libertarian or conservative that you thought the Clean Air act was tyranny.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Kristen Bell]

Then I gotta think, whether you're saying it out loud or not, you know, if you're in Congress and you're afraid of being primaried or whatever, on some level, you get that when a White House official suggests that TV reporters be imprisoned because they covered the administration unfavorably, or when some student gets stuffed into a van because she wrote an op ed may or may not agree with that. Op ed, but she gets stuffed into a van when government agents pick up the wrong guy and send him to El Salvador. Right. That is the kind of thing that is the behavior of a government that is not constraining itself.

[Dax Shepard]

Correct.

[Kristen Bell]

And that should horrify liberals, conservatives and libertarians in equal measure.

[Dax Shepard]

Principled. Principled ones, yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

Well, yeah. I mean, that's obviously when you look to Capitol Hill, that's a problem right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Operating in good. I always said, you know, libertarians are just Republicans whose towns haven't been hit by a tornado yet. You know, it's always, oh, we don't need any. Then after the tornado, it's, where's the money? Quick break. We'll be right back. We are back.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. So to me, it's like, where's the liberty? Right. Let's start with that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Where's the freedom?

[Kristen Bell]

And of course, you're gonna start with a disfavored group that it's okay to always. You know, and often, not always, but usually it's immigrants, but over history, it's been gays, it's been Jews. I mean, you know, the hits, all the hits. It never stops there. Anyway, I think that you start with some common ground there. But then let's be real and let's have some introspection in my party about where we could be doing a better job on the services part. The people are actually getting what they expect out of their taxpayer dollar, that the roads are getting built, that the power stations are getting built. It's just like, stuff works, right? I mean, to me, even some really nerdy stuff about digital citizenship. The fact in the 2020s, the way that you prove who you say you are is to send a letter to get something out of a file cabinet in a drawer in a county office where they keep your birth certificate. Right. I mean, we got some just basic work to do there. And then there's the other one, which is constraining other parties that can make you unfree. In my view, this is the part where we're actually largely getting onto a better track in the last few years because we had a government that was standing up for people. You had Rohit Chopra over at the CFPB making sure that if a bank screwed you on overdraft fees, that they would actually be held accountable. I worked on this in the airline regulation. Right. We said that if an airline gets you stuck, they have to cover your costs. And at the very least, they need to be telling you what they're charging these kinds of things. Click to cancel this rule out of the ftc, which I think the Trump administration is trying to get rid of. But this is one that says, like, you ever sign up for gym membership or.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Kristen Bell]

Like a newsletter or something.

[Dax Shepard]

And they make it physically. Like, you've got to go into the guts of the email.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. You have to get there on a Tuesday and in quarters only.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Kristen Bell]

Even though all you had to do to sign up was an Email, but you have to find somebody on the phone or go somewhere in order to cancel. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

You've got to drive there and do it in person.

[Kristen Bell]

So that got addressed and now they're trying to take it back. The Trump folks are trying to take it back to where that you're vulnerable there. So the sticking up for people part I think is really important because that's another way to show people that government can be in their corner. Look, the bottom line is if the economy and the government were working the way they should, for most Americans, a guy like Donald Trump and a movement like Trumpism would not have been possible. We are here because the system we inherited is at best showing its flaws and at worst is just no longer up to the task of what it takes to help people live free and thriving lives in the middle of 21st century.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And to have that coherent. You know, we were talking to Michael Lewis last week and he said something I thought was, was really a great nugget about this, which was, you know, the government is there to fill in the gaps where the private sector won't. And I think that's something that is, is, is not well articulated in that the private sector is not a freedom machine. It is not something that takes care of all the needs you need. In the same way that the legislative has to check, the executive has to check, the judicial, which has to check. You need some balance between public and private so that the excesses of the operating system we use, which is capitalism, don't create the kind of collateral damage that it often creates. Government has to be that mitigating factor. There's nothing else of the size of multinational capitalism that can provide. Exactly as you say. You know, I've always said, I think the biggest limit to American freedom and liberty is poverty and struggle. Yes, almost entirely.

[Kristen Bell]

Absolutely. I mean, talk about the biggest thing that can make you unfree. Right. It's when you don't have resources. And what's happening to or what's about to happen to poor and low wealth people in this country is horrific. The threats to Medicaid, the threats to snap, the food aid being cut, to say nothing of what could be happening with VA, Social Security, that of course, the less income you've already got, the more that matters to you. Right? And again, look, the folks in charge right now, they're not sitting up at night worrying about this kind of thing. This is not their problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? How do we get people more margin of error? Because it's not just, you know, even in the low income but middle income is. It's that squeeze where you have no margin of error. Your parents are getting older, as your kids are getting ready to go to college, and the childcare is in there. You know, I always found it interesting if you look at the tranches of where your taxes go, right. The first five of them, I think are like Defense, service of the debt, Social Security, Medicare. It's things that don't impact. Don't give people really margin of error until they're either really old or really poor. But if people aren't confident that the government can competently provide those things, it's sort of a chicken and the egg now. Now we're in this terrible cycle. Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

And look, sometimes it's provided literally, right. The government provides a service like air traffic control or national defense or wastewater. Sometimes the government just makes sure. Needs to make sure certain things can happen. So we continue to live in pretty much the only country, not even the only rich country, which is the only country, period, that doesn't have some system for national health, national childcare. Not that the.

[Dax Shepard]

Or health care.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah. At least health care. We've at least gotten to where most people are insured. There's a lot more. There's a lot that's messed up about our healthcare system. But when I look at where we're at on childcare, where we're at on even just parental leave, Right. And again, it doesn't have to be provided by the government. There has to be a policy by the government to make sure that you can get it. One of the handful of things the Trump administration did that I actually thought was good last time was they made sure that at least for federal workers, there was parental leave, but everybody ought to have parental leave. And that's one of those things. It shouldn't be just like something you get a voucher for if you're poor. It should be something that is a basic part of a functioning economy. And we know that it works because literally everybody else has done it at some level in the world. And there's no country that's like, you know, we ought to do next year, we ought to get rid of our parental leave.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kristen Bell]

You know, that was a big mistake. We shouldn't do that anymore.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that Denmark has parental leave and it has national health care. And we looked at their country and thought, you know, we got to take from them Greenland. Like the one thing that doesn't, that's got nothing to do with what makes that country. True.

[Kristen Bell]

Maybe we need a more of a fact finding. Mission over there. And look, we're not Denmark. And not everything that works here will.

[Dax Shepard]

There will be harder to do in a heterogeneous country with this many people, no question.

[Kristen Bell]

But look, the really frightening thing is that in statistical terms, the American dream, as in born poor, wind up rich, you're more likely to live out the American dream right now in Denmark than in America. And as long as that is true, we've got profound, profound problems as a country. Look, the year my mom was born, end of World War II, you had a 90% chance of finishing off economically better than your parents. 90%. By the time I was born in the early 80s, it was, it was a coin flip. And that kind of uncertainty is only growing because again, we have not been taking care of the basics, just basic things around affordability, around protection, around what it's like to get through everyday life in this country. Obviously have been leaving a lot of people out or we would not be here. And that's where I think my party needs to be very realistic about what our project is. Obviously part of our project is to stop the cruelty and the chaos and the horror show that's emanating from D.C. but if all we have is an account of what it is we're stopping or what we're against, it's still going to be pretty hard for people to hear us. Maybe we can win the midterms, maybe we can even win the White House. But when I think about it once, but when I think about a generational project of really transforming the country and transforming the country for the better versus transforming the country into whatever it has been plunged into in the last hundred days, that's going to require a deeper level of vision and a greater readiness to walk away ruthlessly from what hasn't worked and to stand up relentlessly for what has worked, even if it's unpopular.

[Dax Shepard]

And to be honest about it with yourselves, it's still a reckoning that, you know, I think there's still a generational churn that has to occur within the Democratic Party. The government probably writ large, although I think a lot of the younger energy is probably on the other side. But there seems to be a real reluctance and fear to walk away from those legacy structures and incumbent structures and embrace. You know, I thought it was so interesting, you know, even something as small as AOC not getting the senior position on the committee she wanted and they gave it to a 74 year old guy. Nothing against him, but it just speaks to this idea that I don't know if what you're speaking about. I don't know if it has registered yet writ large within the leadership.

[Kristen Bell]

Well, it's a really hard thing to absorb when it could mean you need to move along. But let me point to a couple really interesting examples. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

One, Nancy Pelosi, she excused her. So she still, I mean, I worked with her after she was speaker, and she was still a formidable leader and member of Congress, delivering for her district, doing things for the party. But then when she was weighing in on questions around generational change, she had a lot of moral authority because she could say, hey, I stepped away. Another example, I think of we keep talking about Europe. This wasn't Denmark, this was the Netherlands. My counterpart came over for a meeting. This is something you do a lot. And Secretary of Transportation, your equivalent from another country, comes in. You have a bilateral meeting. You discuss areas of cooperation, any issues that you need to kind of resolve or negotiate. And I have this counterpart who I had met and dealt with on a number of things, came in, we had a nice conversation and meeting. And toward the end, he said, by the way, this is the last time that you'll. You'll see me. And I thought, like, I don't remember. I don't think they had, like, an election. Like, he's, you know, about to lose his job or anything. Yes. I've decided it's time for me to move on. It's time for a newer generation to take. Take over, and I'm going to try new things, but we really need to kind of give it up to the newer generation. And then I went back and I looked him up. He's like 55, so.

[Dax Shepard]

55?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He's not even old enough to be in the Senate yet.

[Kristen Bell]

There's just a different attitude there. And I do think we could learn something from that. Right. Like, there are a lot of countries and cultures where you have your time in service and then you go do something else, or maybe you even do something in government, you know. Another person I got to know, the Australian ambassador to the U.S. fascinating guy. He was the premier. He was the prime minister, I think it's called. He was in charge of Australia, then he wasn't. Then he went and got a degree, a PhD.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, he didn't have a degree before he was in charge.

[Kristen Bell]

He had lots of degrees. But he, like, went and got a doctorate. And then he became. And then he got elected again and he was in charge. I think in between he was foreign minister and then. And then he became ambassador and he's got Another job. And he doesn't feel the need to, you know, have his grip on the entire country.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, it used to be that way. There were presidents that would end up on the Supreme Court and then they would move up. There was an ethos that it wasn't, I think ceding power wasn't the difficulty that it is today. That it wasn't. Boy, you see it with wealth, you see it with power. There's an incumbency to all of it, and it's very difficult to get any churn. And I think the interesting part is, is people don't begrudge, I think, power, or they don't begrudge wealth or those things. I think what they begrudge is if once that power and wealth is accumulated, you begin to use it to insulate and isolate the system, to rig it in a way that makes it nearly impossible for others to then permeate those hallowed halls of money and power. Yeah, but think it's the rigging.

[Kristen Bell]

Think about it. I mean, what is one thing that even today, most Republican incumbents and most Democratic incumbents have in common? It's going to be a desire to remain incumbent, Right?

[Dax Shepard]

I thought you were going to say prostate cancer. That's, that's a terrible.

[Kristen Bell]

I mean, it's a bias that is built into our system. But your system's supposed to have checks to stop that from happening. And look, I think some of the things get thrown around, like term limits are too easy. That doesn't get at the bigger issue, which is an institutional and cultural readiness to do your part and then let.

[Dax Shepard]

Somebody else and for, for the incumbents to have a sense. I think when you're down in Washington, and you probably experienced this as Transportation Secretary, the access to those individuals is so much greater for industry lobbyists or those with power and money, that the other voices really are, are never heard, that they're not heard, at the very least at anywhere near the same volume. And so it's very easy, as the daily churn goes on in Washington, to lose sight of what those voices would be telling you as opposed to the voices that you do hear.

[Kristen Bell]

You know, one thing I felt right away when I went to Washington was how inward looking it can be. And I don't mean to look a lot of people, especially in the other party, kind of constantly run against Washington. I don't mean to paint a negative brush on the incredibly dedicated talented people and public servants who go there to do good work. But I did notice at the political.

[Dax Shepard]

Layer, that's what I meant more the political layer. That's right.

[Kristen Bell]

It's really true. It was really striking to me, I think because when you're a mayor, even in a big city, and certainly in a smaller city, like I led in northern Indiana, you eat what you cook. Right. Like whatever decisions you make, like good or bad, you're making them for yourself and for your neighbor and your neighbor's going to come find you and tell you what they think and somebody's going to catch you at the grocery store and tell you what they think. And like you're just getting, you're getting a lot of feedback all the time from friends, frenemies, political and non political people. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

But they have access to you.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, by design. Right. And I think one of the reasons why you often see, like sometimes you'll see footage of a senator getting confronted in an elevator and they're just, they look like a deer in headlights. Right. Some constituent, some activist gets in their face and look, that could, that can be like, look, sometimes that's a shitty thing to do to somebody who's like not quite ready. But as a senator, it's your job.

[Dax Shepard]

I've done it too.

[Kristen Bell]

It's your job to be responsive, literally, you're a representative of the people. Right. And I think about, I've never met a mayor who wouldn't know what to do in that situation because it literally happens to them all the time. But I do think Washington creates these bubbles around people. And by the way, I suspect I haven't spent that much time in corporate America. I spent a couple years as a consultant. But I imagine that happens a lot around very wealthy people too. Right. I mean, we know that happens a lot around very wealthy people. Right. Part of what's frightening to me about this moment is you've got a lot of creatures of Washington who haven't had to be responsive to people in a while, being coupled with creatures of enormous wealth who haven't heard no in a long time and now they're just feeding off each other. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Like a hubristic perfect storm of entitlement and arrogance. Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

And the answer to that, you know, not to sound pious, but like the answer to that is supposed to be democracy. Like the answer to that is supposed to be the fact that like all those people making decisions have to come check in with their boss, the American people, every couple of years, every four years.

[Dax Shepard]

Look at the panic that occurs with the simple town hall that, you know, this idea of the town hall, the kind of Capra esque vision of you know a John Doe to stand up and ask a question to their, they're treated like, oh my God, they stopped doing them. The, the, they went into the lion's den and you're like, of your voters, of your consent, they start doing that. Look, I've, they stopped, they just stop.

[Kristen Bell]

I've had my ass handed to me in public meetings. Like it's not fun, but like it makes you better. Because either you have a good answer and you get a chance to convince somebody, or you don't have a good answer about why you're doing the right thing and you have to think of a better way to explain it. Or most importantly of all, you might be wrong about something and you find out, right? Like that's how the process is supposed to work, but by virtue of these cocoons that we have around people. And of course the other thing is the algorithm. Like the thing about those town halls or about local processes is they're offline. Like you're actually in a room with other people. And yeah, maybe it's contrived, maybe it's lopsided. All of that could be going on, especially in a town hall that happens right now. But you're offline, looking people in the eye, talking to them. And we don't have a lot of that in terms of how most of us get most of our information. It's just the feed, right? I mean, even TV used to give us some sense. You would see, you would see a news story about some controversy and you'd hear from the one person on the one side and you'd hear from the other person on the other side and maybe you'd be moved by it, maybe you'd be, it would further entrench you in what you already believe. But you would think about it, you would think about it for a minute because you had to hear those sides, right? So very little of that is now part of how most of us get most information.

[Dax Shepard]

Does Washington discourage that to some extent for people? And can you remember a time that you can recall hearing something and you went, oh, I think I might be looking at this wrong, where you were open minded enough to hear something constructive. And the only thing I can liken it to is in some ways, like I can remember reviews of things I've made, like a movie or something where like, it's just ripping me to shit and I gotta like get through it. But there's like one nugget in there that I'll read and go like, oh God, that's right. Why didn't I do that. Have you had that experience?

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, sure, all the time. I mean, there are times you see things, you just. Look, there is a bias toward being defensive of everything you've done. That's human. That's not just politics. That's human. But you want to encounter people. One thing I did a lot is I sat down with a lot of Republican governors and often kind of going back and forth with them would. Sometimes it would really make me dig in my heels because I would think what they had to say was not convincing. Other times it was the reverse. I mean, I had a governor from a western state came in and said, look, you have this EV rule that there's gotta be a. You know, every 50 miles, there's gotta be a charging station in order to get the federal money. And I said, yeah, you guys should love this. Like, it's making sure that out in these rural areas where there's not a lot of, like, private sector's not gonna do it. Like, we're making sure that there's charging. And then he starts walking me through how his road network works. He's like, look, here's a place where literally nobody would. If you made us put a charger here, like, it would maybe be, like, very interesting to. An elk that comes by from time to time could, like, you know, rub his antlers on it. But it's not going to. It's not going to do much for EV users, even if you make us put it in. And we talked about some flexibility we could have there, which was actually something we worked on together. So, yeah, there's so many times, like, you think you go in with an idea, you hope you're right, but you got to be open to finding out that that's maybe not how you thought it was, and that's okay. That's how it's supposed to work.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? And as you move forward. Because right now, the Democratic Party, you would hope, is in a period of reflection, but also of laying groundwork for what that new vision would, or a convincing argument to be given the responsibility of creating that new vision would be. I've seen it done with individuals. I've not seen much of a concerted effort, top down. Even the new guy they got at the dnc, his first comment was like, their billionaires are terrible, but our billionaires are great. You know, it was just like, oh, we're screwed. You know, are you seeing a nascent effort in the way that, you know, the Republicans, they had all their ducks in a row when they got in the door doesn't seem like Democrats have any ducks. They're all free range, they're all flying around.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, we're not really, we're not really top down kind of people. Right. And this even bottom up. The sooner we can, the sooner we can accept kind of what we are and what we aren't, I think the better. I don't think we're going to have the equivalent of Project 2025 where, you know, I mean, don't get me wrong, there's lots of policy work going on, but the idea of us generating some thousand page document and everybody kind of saluting and marching forward, that's just, you know, that's not really what we're about. I think what we do need to do is lay out a real reckoning of three things. We need to rethink what we have to say. The policies, the ideas hold absolutely true to, the ones where our values are at stake, but reconsider any ones that just aren't quite right. That's what we have to say, how we say it. A lot of that's the tone, it's the messenger. Especially the way we talk to Trump voters we're trying to win over because I told you so is not a great way. Anybody who's ever been married knows that that's like not a smart way. Like, even if you think you're being vindicated on something and obviously we're gonna have lots of moments, you're saying, carry.

[Dax Shepard]

Yourself with some humility even when you're right.

[Kristen Bell]

Especially when you're right. And be open to the possibility maybe you weren't right about some things.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't be a sore winner.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, right. So there's what we have to say, there's how we say it. And then the other big thing that my party is terribly behind on is where we say it. And by this I mean what media spaces we are in. You know, I did a couple appearances, kind of almost last minute ideas where during the campaign last year as I was working to help my party, I did some things on online YouTube based media outlets I had never even heard of.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kristen Bell]

And had more people coming up to me, but different people than came up to me. If I'd been on cnn, more likely to be a high school student or a server at a place where I was grabbing somebody who had not gotten to know me through some of the other media that I was doing every day, but did get to know me through some of these other media that. The podcast thing. Right. My party's all up in Arms about who's our Joe Rogan? We're not going to have a Joe Rogan to the left. That's not how it works.

[Dax Shepard]

It's also not something you can conjure exactly in the way that they just think, oh, let's inorganically build this thing. Those, those positions have been built over time and they've earned their credibility and they've earned their authenticity and they've earned all those things that they have. You can't just poof them into existence.

[Kristen Bell]

But we also, where they are there and where they are willing to give us a hearing, we should show up. Same as I made a habit of showing up on Fox News. Right, Right. I think we're really struggling to find people where they are.

[Dax Shepard]

And by the way, very impactful when you show up in spaces and articulate something that it almost feels novel to them.

[Kristen Bell]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

To hear it laid out at.

[Kristen Bell]

Exactly. I could say something. I could be the 10th person to say roughly the same thing on a liberal show or I could literally be the first time somebody heard a certain idea if I'm in a more conservative space. Which is why right wing spaces like X and like Fox News I think continue to be important for people like me to be in. But we've also got to be finding folks who are not always looking for politics.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. People who have other shit to do. Yeah, yeah, no, I find that a lot of the media now is. It really has become a kind of self sustaining legacy, kind of complex. And I always tell people, you know, like, even with shows like, like mine, I run like a Tower Records. Like we are in many respects dinosaurs. Dinosaurs of infrastructure. Like I'm out there like, hey kids, come on in and see the new CDs on the rack. And they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't, I don't go into brick and mortar stores. I don't listen, you know, and these things naturally evolve and there is a churn and new voices arise. And those voices can be really exciting and valuable and it creates, you know, new avenues to express these ideas and.

[Kristen Bell]

That should be exciting and empowering, but only if we know what we're doing and we can't be naive about it. Right? So on one hand, things are, you know, ideas are spreading and compelling voices are emerging and are spreading in this space. But also, let's be clear, the right has a very sophisticated infrastructure to amplify some of those voices.

[Dax Shepard]

No question.

[Kristen Bell]

And it feels organic, it looks organic. They have these things, many of them Propagating through spaces that I barely understand, like discord, but that reach people and feel real. And so we need to be as savvy about the mechanics of that kind of stuff in the same way that 30, 50, 70 years ago a DNC operative would need to be smart about. I don't know how to buy radio ads in the new radio era or a bunch of stuff they probably hadn't thought about a generation sooner.

[Dax Shepard]

But there is a lot more Trojan horses going on nowadays than I think I can ever recall. Things that are, you know, they keep exposing, oh, there was a Russian oligarch who bought $8 million worth of podcast shows and didn't. Nobody ever said anything and they just went through it and you know, they are incentivizing and there's. I guess they used to call it paola, but there's a great deal of that. And even somebody like, you know, Leonard Leo would, would admit to it. I saw an interview with him where he said, oh, I did what the left did with universities. And you're like, the left didn't do that with univers. They didn't pay millions of dollars to, you know, infiltrate universities with, with left wing activism. But that is what he did with the court. And he would say as much. Yes, I'm capturing our court system through the use of money. Like he'll just say it.

[Kristen Bell]

No, they think that's fair game. And we have some decisions to make on my side of the aisle about how to maintain our integrity and also not get outgunned in these spaces where you have that kind of money flying around because you know, something doesn't just show up in your feed just because.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, the algorithm is all knowing and it's a, it's a radicalizing machine. And it's, that's why I always say these things are not the town square. The town square doesn't have suggestions. It doesn't make anti semitic remarks at you every time you log into the town square. Like, that's just not how it works. But I think, I think you're right. Do you feel confident and I'm cognizant of your time because I know you're probably going to go pick up the kids at, at a certain point or maybe grow that beard out a little more because I got to tell you, friend, you need some work filling in a couple of gaps.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, Very nice. In your travels, are you confident that you've identified at least some of the players that you think will be valuable in creating those three protocols that you talk about. Have you run across the areas where you think these are the people. Because it does need macro leadership. You can't wait for life to bubble up from the primordial ooze of the damage of the election. It has to be led and it has to be nurtured. Have you seen the buds of that?

[Kristen Bell]

I would say, to shift metaphors, I'd say from primordial who's. Or buds.

[Dax Shepard]

Buds. All right.

[Kristen Bell]

The pieces are there. The pieces are emerging. I see it everywhere. I see conversations. I see folks iterating, trying, which is part of how this has to work. Again, we talked about risk aversion earlier. Like, we got to try lots of things, some of which will fail and be okay with that. I see that happening. I don't think that it's been consolidated in any meaningful way, but I think it will. And. And I will do my part to help.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that done, Pete Buttigieg has just volunteered to lead the. If I'm hearing this correctly, and I think I am, I said help is going to lead. Help the remake. Oh, all right. Help.

[Kristen Bell]

All right, fair enough.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, from your mouth to God's ear, sir. Thank you so much, Pete Buttigieg, for joining us. And I'm so glad you've been able to take a breather, to disconnect, but also have not unconnected. And I look forward to seeing the fruits of all those things in the future.

[Kristen Bell]

Thanks. Thanks for having me on. Enjoyed it.

[Dax Shepard]

No, man, my pleasure. Buttigieg. That must be such a weird. You know, we're all in a business where. And you guys, we all experienced it working at the problem where one day you're in the hive of the office and everything is bustling and all those things, and the next day you're crying at a karaoke bar with nothing to fucking do.

[Jon Stewart]

I wasn't expecting to revisit this today.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Oh, God. Was a dark time.

[Jon Stewart]

I loved his story, though, about going to visit the projects that he had been involved in when he was in charge.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that. Imagine pulling up the construction site, being like, hey, how you guys, you know, I. The money.

[Jillian Spear]

He's undercover, bossing it.

[Dax Shepard]

How's the trenches? Puts on the helmet and a little orange jacket and walks his way through. But have you. You. You've all had that experience of, like, one day you're in it, and the next day it's just out. And I've always found for me, the way my mind works, that's A really hard adjustment because the brain is going like this, and when it stops, it turns and it looks at you and like, well, now I'll just devour your face. Like, it turns on you.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah. I wonder what someone like him does with so much free time.

[Jillian Spear]

Yeah, he's got to find something to do, right? It's a shame he's not running for anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I think he's.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yet.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Jillian. Sweet, sweet Jillian. Do you think you. Or do you think he's, like, taking pottery classes? Where. Where do you think this thing is going?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Both. Yeah, he's somewhere in the middle.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe. Maybe that's the way to go. But hopefully they'll begin the work on this new plan. I. I was like, at the end, I was like, so you'll do that, right? Like, if I. I was definitely, like, guilting him a little bit. Like, so that sounds like a very smart plan. You'll do that, right? You'll get on that. What are. What are the listeners saying, Viewers? What's this week's?

[Pete Buttigieg]

We got two juicy ones.

[Dax Shepard]

Juicy. Bring them, bring them, bring them.

[Pete Buttigieg]

What was the cause of the moment you first found yourself politically engaged?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I mean, I grew up in the late. Like, I was born in 62, so, like, my. One of my first memories was, like, Martin Luther King being assassinated. Like, I was in a kindergarten class in the middle of Trenton, and there was unrest, and, like, we had to hide under our desks and. And we got to eat lunch under our desk. And I was like, this is the greatest day ever. Meanwhile, it was, you know, Martin Luther King was killed, and then Robert Kennedy was killed, and then Vietnam. And I. You know, we knew people in Vietnam and then Watergate. So you can imagine that roiled, you know, for anybody that was. That was supposed to feel like our country was stable and we were on a path to greatness. Like, that was a very volatile, mercurial, tragic, catastrophic error. So. And by the way, I think I said error and not error, but both are applicable in that. So I think that informed a certain level of skepticism, a certain expectation that things are not inevitable, that things are not solid and that. And that greatness can be lost, that it's not a rite of passage. It's not, you know, exceptionalism is not a birthright. It's, you know, it's that it's work and shit happens that shocks the conscience and system. And that was that. That's your sort of formative years. And then, of course, Reagan came and fixed all of it. So.

[Jillian Spear]

Morning in America.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. But do you now, for you guys, you know, we've all grown up in. In slightly different eras. Does that resonate with you guys for the way you grew up or not as tumultuous?

[Jon Stewart]

I mean, 9 11, I think was the moment feels pretty tumultuous.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, that was a biggie for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah. I remember I went to school in Long island and I was sitting in my art class and I just saw fire engines going past, like, all day. And I definitely was curious, like, what is happening? And they didn't tell us at the time because there were kids in the school whose parents were in the building.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Jesus. Right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

They all got out. They were okay. But that was the first time that I was. I was inquisitive. But I would say, personally, really, like, you kind of had that impact on me. Not to make this about you, but.

[Dax Shepard]

That'S a terrible, terrible thing. I apologize.

[Pete Buttigieg]

No, no. But, yeah, I mean, I would say that that was. You had a big impact on kind of me getting or paying attention politically.

[Dax Shepard]

Brittany, if I'd known that, I would have tried much harder if I had gone out on there. Jillian, what about you? Same.

[Jillian Spear]

Yeah, I mean, I don't.

[Kristen Bell]

I.

[Jillian Spear]

You know, obviously it was. I don't really remember 911 as, like, a very political moment of me being sort of turned on to that, but I would say, like, Prop 8 in California was a moment where me and my friends got pretty political and.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Jillian Spear]

And like the financial crisis as well. So a lot of, you know, people lost their jobs, friends, parents, things, and it was, yeah, like, very obviously impactful on your teenage years.

[Jon Stewart]

I think, like, just branching off. Gillian's point. 9 11, I think, became political for me because it wasn't explained in the same way Brittany is describing. Like, we were maybe too young, and so I was watching the news with my family every night, and that was the switch that was like, I need to know what this was.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So isn't it interesting, though, that for. For all of us, and maybe it's just the way that. That I started framing it, but that the Awakening is based on chaos and disorder and not on hope. And, like, I think if you talk to other people, they might say, oh, mine was Martin Luther King organizing marches or Obama's election or, you know, something else that was gravitational but to the positive. And I wonder if that changes your perspective, because it. When you do ask me, like, it's not. I was not raised into politics through optimism. It was through chaos.

[Jillian Spear]

That's such a good point.

[Dax Shepard]

And I wonder what that does. To your. I don't know, to your mentality. It's a good question, though.

[Jon Stewart]

That you expect chaos, maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

Or. Or.

[Dax Shepard]

Or that you. You carry yourself like. It's sort of like when you live in New York, you carry yourself like you're braced. You don't. Nobody, like, strolls through New York.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah.

[Jillian Spear]

And if you do, we're trying to get around you.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly.

[Jillian Spear]

By the way, move to the side.

[Dax Shepard]

Excellent point by Jillian. If you are strolling through New York, do it around 10th Avenue or 1st Avenue. Don't do it towards the center.

[Jillian Spear]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

You'll fuck everything up.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Truly.

[Jillian Spear]

This isn't the Green Mile. This is a sidewalk.

[Dax Shepard]

Very nice.

[Pete Buttigieg]

All right, we got another one.

[Dax Shepard]

All right.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Should elected officials like Ted Cruz, for example, be allowed to have podcasts?

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. The more Ted Cruz, the better, as you always say. As I have always said, I can't get enough of that sweet, sweet Texas man. Of course they should be allowed to have podcasts. I don't know why they would want them, but I do think they should be. I think they. They think this format is the new media. And so. But oftentimes I think familiarity breeds contempt to a large extent. And. And those things are not as intentional and directional. And you're seeing it now, like, everybody that wants to run for president is like, I know how I'll do it. I'll start a podcast. And you're like. The first week, everybody's like, oh, this shit. Wow, that was that an hour and a half. That was fucking long. Like, it's. I don't know that it's necessarily the best way for those folks to communicate, I think, obviously, transparency, but, you know, certainly they should be allowed to. And as a matter of fact, I think in this country, podcasts may become mandatory for everybody, for everybody over 14. But certainly I love the fact that Ted Cruz is the person that they brought up.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Should Ted Cruz be allowed, too? And you're like, mm, boy, I do wanna say free speech, and I do want people to have them. But Ted Cruz, that is. Mm. Brittany. How can they keep in touch with us?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Twitter, we are weeklyShow Pod, Instagram Threads, TikTok, BlueSky. We are weekly show podcast. And you can, like, subscribe and comment on our YouTube channel, the weekly show with Jon Stewart.

[Dax Shepard]

As always, great job, guys. Lead producer Lauren Walker, producer of Brittany Momedovic, video editor and engineer Rob Votolo, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer, producer Jillian Spear. And our executive producers, including just back from maternity leave, the great. Katie Gray and Mr. Chris McShane. We're delighted to see you back and. And delighted with little baby Nora. She's so cute. All right. We're starting a whole. We're starting, like, a weekly show commune, all kinds of things. We'll see you next week. And. And that's it. Bye. The weekly show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions, Paramount Podcasts.