← The Who What Wear Podcast
The Who What Wear Podcast
Fashion Designer Prabal Gurung on His New Memoir, "Walk Like a Girl," Joy as an Act of Defiance, and His Modern Approach to Americana
00:29:28
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- [00:00]
Hilary Kerr
This podcast is supported by the RealReal. Meet Christine. She loves shopping and this is the sound of fashion overload. Too many fabulous things, not enough space. So Christine started selling with the RealReal.
- [00:14]
Prabhul Gurung
I've always loved collecting designer pieces. Gucci bags, Prada heels.
- [00:18]
Tara Gonzalez
But my style keeps evolving.
- [00:20]
Prabhul Gurung
Selling with the RealReal game changer.
- [00:22]
Tara Gonzalez
I earn more.
- [00:23]
Prabhul Gurung
And they do everything.
- [00:25]
Hilary Kerr
Seriously. Just drop off your items or schedule a pickup. We handle the photos, descriptions, pricing, even shipping. You just sit back and watch your items sell fast to our 38 million members.
- [00:36]
Tara Gonzalez
And I get peace of mind knowing I earn more selling with the RealReal than anywhere else.
- [00:40]
Hilary Kerr
Exactly this. That's the sound of your closet working for you. The RealReal earn more, save time, sell fast. And right now you can get an extra $100 site credit when you sell for the first time. Go to therealreal.com to get your extra $100. Therealreal.com that's therealreal.com.
- [01:11]
Tara Gonzalez
Welcome to the who what Where? Podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors and tastemakers who are shaping the ever evolving world of fashion. I'm who what Wears? Co founder and Chief Content officer Hilary Kerr. And today on the podcast, senior fashion and social media editor Tara Gonzalez is chatting with the designer and founder of his eponymous label, Prabhul Gurung. Prabhul's memoir, Walk Like a Girl was just published yesterday, so of course we had to have him on the podcast. P.S. we're putting a link to order Prabbel's book in the description of this episode. If you want to go ahead and do that. Prabhul joins Tara today to talk about how the opportunity to write this book came about, his mother's influence on his creativity, and what he hopes people will take away from this book. Plus, they discuss his background in fashion, his most recent collections, and the message he hopes to send with his clothing in 2025. It's all coming up on who What?
- [02:21]
Prabhul Gurung
Prabhul, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to chat.
- [02:25]
Hi Tara. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- [02:29]
Yeah, and congrats on your book. For those that don't know, it's a memoir that follows your career as a fashion designer and your upbringing in Nepal and India to kind of the glitz and glamour of New York's high fashion scene. It's titled Walk Like a Girl. I. I'd love to hear more about how the memoir came about and also just I love the title. So I'd love to Hear. How did you decide on the title as well?
- [02:51]
Walk Like a Girl is my love letter to the ones who've been told that they're too much or not enough and who've been told that, you know, their existence and their dreams and desires are not valid and not important, but yet choose joy, optimism, and show up unapologetically in their full glory. And I think sometimes, you know, we feel we have to fit into a certain mold to belong. And I think there's a power in unbelonging. There's a power in also staying true to yourself, because in staying true to yourself, you find your community. And to me, to walk like a girl is to move through the world with defiance and grace and power and vulnerability, and to see that I am here, that I belong, and most importantly, choosing love unapologetically, unabashedly, wholeheartedly, and to share that. Walk like a girl was a pejorative term thrown at me constantly to demean me or, you know, as an insult. But it's a reclamation of that and really being like, no, actually, it is the most powerful thing. I was an effeminate kid back home in Nepal and in India and growing up, because I grew up with a single mother who was really powerful, surrounded by all these empowering women. My superhero was Wonder Woman. And so all I saw were women in their most powerful self, whether in public arena or private homes. Right. And I remember I was probably in the 12th grade, and I was like, if I ever write a book, you know, I'm going to use this thing, Walk like a girl. Because they said, oh, you're like a girl, run like a girl, you play like a girl. And I was like, wait, is that supposed to be bad? And so that's how it started. And now here we are.
- [04:37]
Yeah, I love that it came to you super early in life. How did you decide that now was the time to write this memoir?
- [04:44]
Well, to be completely honest, I didn't know now was the time. I write, I journal and stuff like that, you know, and I've had these stories written down for years. This whole process has been six and a half to seven years for me, writing this particular memoir. When I was putting things together, I was really pouring my heart out. Like, even though, like, I have a public Persona, there's a deeply private side of me which is a lot more reflective and enjoys solitude. So all this stuff was there then, I would say, right before Pandemic and everything, I was just putting everything together. And I just. I shared it with my agent and I was like, you know, I have this someday I want to write this, maybe put it all together. My first chapter, actually initially was about Oprah stuff back home in Nepal and everything. And I sent her like three chapters, and she loved it. And she was like, are you okay if I just send it out to publishers? And I was like, I'm a fashion designer. I'm all right. I was like, let's try it. As I started writing, I knew there was a deadline, but I did not know when would be the right time. The right time for me would be when it got finished.
- [05:43]
And now that it's almost out in the world, which is so exciting, what is your biggest hope in terms of what people will take away from reading it?
- [05:52]
What I hope people realize is that though my life may look bold, bright, and fabulous, the joy is hard earned. I hope people realize it's not the destination that is of importance, it is the process. But most importantly, I would say what I hope people feel is after reading this book, they feel the freedom to be their unapologetic, authentic self. Growing up when everyone around me, besides my mom, my siblings, thought I was good for nothing, a cautionary tale, you know, never got validation. Though it was painful at that time, it really freed me from needing validation anymore. When you don't get great job and all that stuff constantly from the outside world, you no longer seek it, right? So what it did for me was it really opened the door for me to chart my own path, do whatever it is. So I hope in reading this book that people realize the ultimate way to be free is not needing validation from the outside world. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what your heart tells you, what your soul tells you. And the only validation that matters is that because rest of it is a bonus. But it is not something that you really need to be free. Those likes that we get on our Instagram or followers, if we can be free of that, we truly soar and feel that we are connected to our inner self. And that is the path to freedom.
- [07:20]
I love that. And I know you as you've kind of touched upon. You had such a different experience from a lot of fashion designers in your position now. Like, you grew up in Nepal and you went to study at the National Institute of Fashion Technology in New Delhi. And I would love to kind of hear about how these places have influenced your design and your approach to it, which feels unique and so entirely you.
- [07:42]
You really can't, as humans, run away from our identity and our roots. That Pretty much informs who we are. And I'm an extremely curious person who always loves to be a student rather than a teacher, you know, so I'm always soaking it all up. When I came to America and I started my own brand, everything, what I wanted to bring was this idea of the west meeting the East. For the longest period of time, the narrative has been east meets west, right? That sentence in itself, the act of meeting is upon the East. It's like, east has to meet the West. So I changed the narrative in my own head with my company and everything. Like, you know, it's about time the west met the east. Because when we see eye to eye and the playing field is leveled, we really can create something magical, something unique, something celebratory, like where we see each other in our full glory and really understand that we no longer tolerate each other, but we celebrate each other. Those places like Nepal and India, really has influenced the way I see color. The way I see people. The way I see people of color, like, the way I see people of different kinds of shapes and sizes.
- [08:43]
And what do you think is the biggest difference between the fashion that you grew up around and what you see in other parts of the world? Like, what sets it apart?
- [08:52]
So in the most simplistic way, how we see color, we are unafraid of color. Like using it, wearing it, celebrating it. And also the way things wrap your body. Like, you know, for instance, men wear tunics and skirts and everything. So the gender play in inanimate object is already there. So it's not shocking for us. Our taste for the longest period of time, fashion, food, interior decoration, all of that stuff, is through one very colonized lens. It has always been that the west has dictated what is considered beautiful, tasteful, chic, and everything. Anything that is outside the realm of those parameters is always considered tacky or certain things like that.
- [09:33]
Totally.
- [09:33]
Whereas from different parts of the world besides the west, there's thousands of years of history that comes with it. You know, America is a relatively new country. Country and, you know, European point of the colonized lens and the colonial lens about, you know, taste and everything is one point of view. I'm not saying it's bad or good. I'm not saying that it's for you to embrace it. I also embrace that part of it. But I also inject it with things that are where I'm from. So I think the mixture of opposite worlds creating something that's really marvelous and wonderful is the biggest joy is being alive and being a creative and being an Active creator, observer, and absorber of it. So that's why I always say before I consider someone good looking hot or something is chic. I always question, where is this getting informed from the source of your decision we have to be aware of totally.
- [10:24]
And I know that before you decided to go out on your own and start this brand, you worked at brands like Donna Karan and Cynthia Rowley. How did you decide after doing that for a little bit after school that you were gonna break out on your own?
- [10:36]
So my training ground at Donna Karen and Cynthia, one was a massive company, one was a relatively small, independent, and both run by women. And I really love that aspect of it, the multitasking aspect that women have naturally or because of circumstances. That was really something that I learned a lot. Then my real moment came when I went to Bill Blass. I would say the real American couture house. That Reno arrival, the couture house in Paris. Like, the way things were made and everything. That learning experience, for me, my time there completely changed who I became as a creator. You know, I came with the knowledge and history of textiles, colors, and embroidery and all of that stuff. Here at Bill Bass, I learned about tailoring fabrics also, like, the way it takes to make a beautiful clothes and the archival history. Like, I used to spend hours at the other building in the archives, looking at clothes that were worn by Jackie Kennedy, Nan Kempner, Mika Ertegun, Lee Radzell. And when the brand was closing and they were selling all this archival stuff or, like, throwing it away, I asked them if I could have those patterns. They were like, why I wanted to keep that history. It was the most glorious learning experience for me. I learned about Americana, American high society, and what moves the needle here in terms of culture and everything. It was like my PhD, my master's, and everything was at Bill Glass. It really taught me the possibility of what can happen when you dream and when you really create a world of your own. Glass came from Indiana and created his own version of his own American reality. And I was coming from Nepal to create my own. And when I was at Bill Blass, I felt like, oh, that's a possibility.
- [12:19]
The clothing is incredible. And like you said, the rich history, like, I can't even imagine being surrounded by that all the time. Do you remember the moment where it clicked in your head that, okay, maybe I can kind of make my own thing, kind of like Bill Blossom, I'm going to make a name for myself, too.
- [12:33]
I always had the desire to have my own label, have my own brand. Because I wanted to tell my own story. And I'd felt that there was a story that was being told that was very much familiar and everything, but at the same time, there was nobody from Nepal. This part of that world, like, telling our story, the real American story, which is very colorful, different kinds of people. And what was presented for the longest period of time about America and Americana was a very myopic point of view. So now how it came about is like, Bill Blass was closing towards the end of around 2008, and I was looking for jobs deep in recession. I interviewed through headhunters, through the different designers, and the feedback that I got, all those designers that I interviewed were like, oh, he's not the right fit. I don't think he's talented enough. It was this constant rejection. And I remember people were like, don't even think about starting your own thing, because it is in recession. It's like a bad idea, all of that stuff. And I was thinking to myself, there's no time better than a time when everybody is saying, don't do it, not to defy. But I just felt instinctively it was the right time. I'd been at Bill Blast for almost five years. I'd done all my training. I felt equipped and really had the strength and the. I would say, the belief and experience that I'd worked enough and gathered knowledge to be like, all right, I think I can launch it. And I was like, if it works out, I want it to resonate with even just one person, like one store. That'll be great, and I'll build it slowly. And I said, if it doesn't work out, I'll blame it on recession. And that's how it started. And I had a very little savings. I had this amazing apartment that I left that apartment and went to this tiny little studio in East Village. Third street between first and A, right in front of Hell's Angels. I went on unemployment, and I had a little bit of money. I hired an intern that was working with me at that time in a tiny studio where my bed was right next to the fridge, next to the kitchen, next to the toilet, that kind of thing. That's how I started. And all the seamstresses from Bill Blass, since they had closed, each of them were making stuff for me because they had believed in me and they wanted to help me out. My friend's gall. Amanda and Glenn, the Flag out foundation, they gave me the space. They were like, why don't you show it there? And my friends came together to produce the show and all of that stuff. It was a two hour long presentation at a Flag Out Foundation. And I'll never forget, it was like the first hour was all my friends, like assistant editors or assistant buyers, they came and they started texting. Their bosses were like, oh, come and see it. It was like last hour or 45 minutes. When Kathy Horan, Bridget Foley, like, everyone, New York Times, Women's Daily, Vogue, everyone started to come and see it. I didn't know how they were going to react, you know, and then they liked it. We had a little celebration that the presentation was over. I was like, my God, you know, I just hope I get a mention. And I woke up to all these text messages and, you know, people were like, hey, have you checked out Women's Wear Daily? And I said, no. My sister had come to visit me. They could support me from Nepal. And we went to Bryant Park. It was still seventh on six. At that time. Fashion shows were at Bryant Park. And when the truck driver threw the Women's Wear Daily and handed me one, when I unfolded, it was on the COVID My collection was on the COVID of Women's Wear Daily. Now, you have to understand, seven days of Fashion Week, the covers are usually for Michael Kors, Marc Jacobs, Calvin Ralph, Donna Anna Sui, the big ones, you know, and we hope we get a sentence or a paragraph to land a cover that set the tone for me. Like I said, cried my heart out. I was with my sister, and I'll never forget it.
- [16:06]
I've read that story before, but it's even more incredible to hear you talk about it. And I'm sure that when you were making that dress, you weren't even really thinking about that, right?
- [16:15]
No, this is my thing is what I'm in control of is making sure the things that I do, I do to my best abilities and capacity. Once it's out there for people to consume, it's not in my hands. How people react. Always pray for the best, but I never expected it.
- [16:32]
Yeah. Since then, obviously, you've gone on to dress so many incredible women. Like, I was just looking at the list and I was like, okay, you have Sarah Jessica Parker, Demi Moore, Kamala Harris, Michelle Obama. How has that felt? And was that always something you aspired to do? I can imagine that that's a little bit different than a Runway. So was it something that you kind of in your back of your mind was hoping would happen?
- [16:55]
You hope for dreams and aspirations. These women, like Oprah, Michelle Obama, Sarah Jessica Parker, like Kerry Washington, these are women that I have Admired and I've looked up to. And if, you know, you read the book, I have such deep regard for matriarchy and women. When it comes to celebrities, they have plethora of choices. They have racks and racks of clothes that they can choose from those racks, they chose mine. Something spoke to them. It is so humbling because I've always had this aspiration to dress these women, and that's why I started. But, you know, you can't force things like this to happen. It just happens in its due course. It is really gratifying to see women that I've always admired, who've been my heroes, wearing it and supporting it. Changed my career, course of my life, who I was as a person, and otherwise I wouldn't be here. I sometimes look at that little kid back home In Nepal, like 12 years old, 11 years old or younger, looking at my sister's clothes, fascinated with it and wearing it and twirling in it, to whom that very existence, that very being was told that that was wrong by so many other people to have that dream and desire and everything come to life. I'm blessed, you know, I live an abundant life. Not because I have the accolades and the applause and the attention. I'm grateful. And it's not because of that. It's because that in solitude, when I'm by myself, I talk to that little boy to be like, you know, it gets better. It's been the biggest blessing for me.
- [18:27]
And I feel like it's a testament to your hard work and, like, how much your designs are speak to so many different people all over.
- [18:34]
Thank you very much. I'll never forget. It was right off my first resort collection, all of a sudden, oh, by the way, Sarah Jessica Parker asked for the clothes and everything. So, like, till I see it on the red carpet, the press release is sent out, or somebody writes about it, I don't believe anyone's worn it. I'm like that. I just want to be 100% sure.
- [18:49]
Yes.
- [18:50]
It was for the press tour of her film called I Don't Know how she Does It. So one day she wore my dress, and, like, oh, the next day she wore another one. The next day she wore the fourth day, the fifth day. And all of a sudden it became, who is this new designer that Sarah Jessica Parker is wearing? You know, and then through the exchange of words and emails and appreciation and everything, we became friends. And my goodness, what an incredible woman, what a generous woman she is, and what a loyal friend she has been to me, and what an incredibly Eloquent writer she is. One more story that I want to tell you. However, this is not just like people who are celebrated or in the arena. Almost a year ago, I was heading home and I got out of the taxi and I was like walking near Washington Square park and I saw these three women standing there. And I'm looking and I was like, well, that looks like our print. As I got closer to her and I was just like, oh my God, that's our dress. And I don't know who this woman is. So I walked by her and I, I was about to get into my building and I was just like, you know what, let me just come back. And I said, hi, excuse me. They looked at me like, who is this? And I said, I'm sorry to bother you and I didn't want to interrupt, but I love what you're wearing. She said, oh my God, thank you. So I said, completely honest, like, you know, I want to say thank you because I'm the designer. You had so many other options, but you chose to me suddenly you wearing this supports my dreams and thank you very much. And she looked at me, oh my God, I love this. And they were like, oh my God. As now, for me, it's not just about people who are photographed. It's also these women, like, who just chose to wear my stuff. And I see them and I just want to give them a hug and just be like, thank you, thank you, thank you. You have no idea what it means to me. That's the joy of being a creator. When someone who doesn't know you personally is not obligated to support your dream, but somehow resonates with them and they support it. My goodness, what an abundant life.
- [20:42]
And it's so cool to kind of just see your clothing like out in the real world, just like living like on a day to day, not just on a red carpet like you were saying, you know.
- [20:50]
No, absolutely. Because, you know, oftentimes we are told to behave in a certain way. Like, I know you're designed to be reclusive. All that stuff is told. And I'm just like, I am like relatively quite a private person. I have a very close knit circle of friends, but I feel like I have to acknowledge when someone is supporting me or bringing me joy. Like, and I think it's, it really makes me feel very present. I recently asked my mother what made you allow me to wear those dresses and pants around, and she said I would be hanging your sister's clothes or packing it and the look on your Face. I've never seen Joy like that ever, looking at those clothes. And I would say, do you want to try it on? I would like nod my head vigorously like, you know, and I would let you do it. And I say, how can I deny that, Joy? Because you're so present at that time, just like twirling around. And I feel like the same guy when I see people wearing my stuff and really loving it. My God, I know that feeling. I haven't lost touch with that little kid. That's why I would say sometimes my friends are like, oh, you're too optimistic. Or you're this, like. I refuse to give in to cynicism even in the hardest times that we are living right now, simply because Joy has been healing. Joy is the radical act of defiance and resistance. And I choose that.
- [22:05]
Yeah, absolutely. And I know that for your 10th anniversary show, it was titled who Gets to be an American? Which obviously feels so for this moment in time right now. How did that come about? How did you decide that you were going to do that? And then also, is that something that you're thinking about more in 2025 as well?
- [22:24]
When I decided to do my 10 year anniversary collection, it was going to be a retrospective of my work. And coming back, it was nothing to do with it. At that time I was introduced to an investor who's made a lot of people multimillionaires or billionaires over the period of time. So I went to meet him. So they asked me about, like, what was your idea for the brand? And I said the same thing that I said earlier. Like the version of America and Americana that has been portrayed in fashion industry has always been from one certain point of view. But the America that I see, which is the true majority, is a lot more colorful, a lot more cross cultural and a lot more different kinds of people. And I wanted to create that version of America because I feel like that is the true America. And the gentleman said to me, you don't look American. How are you going to define Americana? And I said to him, I don't think you heard, like, what are you trying to say is I don't look white. And then he kind of like hesitated. And I said this. It's okay. All my life I've heard a lot of things unsaid in things that have been said. And I said, you know, I pay my taxes, I make more than 90% of my clothes in New York. I have started foundations here, there, and I've supported everything that I do. I've employees, all of that stuff. And yet it is still not enough. And I was like, is it ever going to be enough? So, I mean, obviously I didn't get the investment. And I remember I was in a taxi, and I remember crying my heart out. Right around that time, I subscribed to Time magazine. I had this magazine that said, who gets to be American? And I remember I was really inspired by that. And I came to my team, I said, let's scrap what we're doing. We're going to change this. And it became very imperative. And I ended the whole collection with, like, sashes and everything because, you know, beauty pageant and everything is so Americana and this stuff is such a pageantry. So I was my commentary on that. And I had hoped in 2020, the conversation would end there and we would move on. Who knew we would be living in a current time, thinking we have to question yet again? And then it made me think about this idea of progress. It's never linear. One step forward, two steps back. It really challenges you simply because are you in it for the moment, or are you in it for the movement? Are you going to be speaking up when it becomes a trend, or are you be speaking up throughout the state? And I realize it is never going to end till every person of color, every colors of rainbow, the majority and the minority included, come together and build a table. Everyone gets a seat at the table. Because till you have that, it is always going to be, you know, crumbs that is handed out to us, to the minorities, and it is never going to be a true equality. So my thing is, is what resonates with me and how can I bring beauty and everything, invite people and have a substantive conversation that makes people feel not threatened, but more celebratory and inclusive of people who don't look like us.
- [25:19]
Yeah. And I feel like that's something that is really so beautiful about your collections and your clothing, is that I feel like there's more to it than, you know, the colors and the textures. You don't shy away from starting conversations and. And speaking for people who haven't seen themselves represented in the fashion space. And you open up that space for people to really, like, see themselves and hear themselves.
- [25:39]
Thank you very much. You have to do what feels right for you. Right. There are people, like, who might not speak up. That's fine. There are different ways of being and existing. I'm not asking everyone to do it. It is true for me simply because I know how it feels to not belong, not feel seen, how it feels to be dismissed. And so, in my however long or short period of time that I live in this planet, I want to create a world where people feel seen.
- [26:06]
On that note, I'd love, too, to just, like, touch upon your most recent collection from this past fashion month. If you could give our audience a little glimpse into what the inspiration was. I'd love to hear what you were thinking about when you were putting that together.
- [26:19]
So when I was putting the fall collection together, what happened to me was I was working on the memoir also. There were, like, a lot of memories about New York and in Nepal. And one thing that I'm an extremely curious person who is a keen observer of life, you know, just about fashion. And I'm an early riser. So, like, I see New York that not many people see. You know, like, a lot of immigrants, a lot of people like. And I said, that's another part of New York. The New York that I see in early break of dawn is people coming home from a party and people going to work, that coming together. And there was this, like, sense of protection and layering and the protective covers that we needed in this really difficult, challenging times. And what we are looking in New York and bigger cities is this, like, a human touch and intimacy. Whether it's for one night or a lifetime, it doesn't matter. Like, we are looking for connection. So I wanted to create a collection that felt like true sense of self. And the basis of it is, in the fashion term, is very American sportswear, because that's what I see in New York. But the coats and everything was very much like the. Like, almost like a kimono shape from the east, right? And then those flowers that bloomed, or the lilies from the bodega, often discarded as, like, cheap flowers or, like, whatever it is. But it brings so much joy to so many people. So it was just this idea of, like, New York coming together for someone who's not from this part of the world. And I wanted to create a celebration of sensuality, vulnerability, seeking connection and community. It started when I was writing my memoir, because when I was writing in between, I'd go to this coffee shop, I'd go to La Colombe, and I would sit outside, you know, on Lafayette street, and I would watch people and I would look at it. And I've always been fascinated. And over the decades that I've lived here, I've seen, like, how New York fashion has changed. And, you know, I always say fashion industry is the easiest way of telling how the world is functioning, reacting, acting. It's the quickest way of saying, okay, this is where the world is. Yeah.
- [28:12]
Yeah. And as you're thinking about your next collection, like, what's going on? The mood board? What's really inspiring? You going further into 2025?
- [28:23]
Oh, I wish I could show you the mood board because I'm like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 boards. I started doing the research while halfway through the fall collection. I had this idea for a spring show that you're going to see in September. I really can't say much without getting into, but it's going to be one of the most challenging collection that I've done. I've realized that not just technically, like if things fall in place, people will realize why I'm doing this particular collection. Let's see.
- [28:51]
I'm very excited to see it in September. I'm excited for your book to be out there and for everyone to read it. This was a lovely conversation. Like I said, I'm feeling so inspired and your journey is so incredible and you've done such amazing work. And thank you so much again for taking the time to talk to me about it.
- [29:08]
Thank you. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
- [29:16]
Tara Gonzalez
A huge thank you to senior fashion and Social Media editor Tara Gonzalez and designer Prabhul Gurung. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you'd rate and review us. If you have any guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a line at podcastwhowhatware.com or you can find us on social @whowhatwear. See you next Wednesday on the who what Where Podcast. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Claire Schmidt. Our editor is CO Takasuki Chernovin. Our audio engineers are at Glen Canyon Audio and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.
- [30:30]
Narrator
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