Hacks Costume Designer Kathleen Felix-Hager on Deborah Vance's Maximalist Style and Where to Shop Ava Daniels's Elevated Season 4 Wardrobe

Summary

Summary of "Hacks" Costume Design with Kathleen Felix-Hager on The Who What Wear Podcast

Release Date: June 4, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Who What Wear Podcast, Lauren Eggertson converses with Emmy-award-winning costume designer Kathleen Felix-Hager about her work on the acclaimed TV show "Hacks." The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of crafting the distinctive wardrobes of central characters Deborah Vance and Ava Daniels in Season 4, exploring themes of style evolution, character development, and the unique challenges of costuming a comedy series.

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Kathleen Felix-Hager’s Journey into Costume Design

Kathleen begins by sharing her serendipitous entry into the world of costume design. Her career took off unexpectedly when she joined the costume department for the 1994 film Waterworld. Growing up around the film industry, thanks to her stepfather's involvement, Kathleen was familiar with the environment but found the specifics of costume design to be a new and exciting challenge.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [02:50]: “I just was like a little sponge and I just absolutely fell in love.”

Her passion grew as she recognized the power of costumes in storytelling, likening her visual interpretation of scripts to her lifelong love of reading.

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Landing the Role on "Hacks"

Kathleen landed her role on "Hacks" through a pre-existing professional relationship. Having previously worked with Morgan Sackett, the show's producer, she was approached to design for the new series starring Jean Smart. This opportunity arose during the tumultuous summer of 2020, amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, presenting both challenges and a creative outlet that kept her motivated.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [05:21]: “Something of a blueprint for Deborah Vance's vibrant, ostentatious style.”

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The Costume Design Process for "Hacks"

The design process began with the creation of mood boards and digital lookbooks for both main characters, Ava and Deborah. Kathleen emphasizes the collaborative nature of costume design, highlighting how each designer brings their unique interpretation to a character.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [05:36]: “Everyone brings their thoughts and interpretation to the character, which I think is what makes costume design so interesting and exciting.”

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Ava Daniels’s Wardrobe Evolution

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Ava Daniels’s transformation over the seasons. Initially portrayed with high-waisted, cropped pants and vintage thrifting styles that often clashed with Deborah’s sophisticated taste, Ava's wardrobe in Season 4 showcases a matured, elevated aesthetic. Kathleen highlights the use of luxury brands like Officine General, Toteme, and Louis Vuitton to reflect Ava's growth from a fledgling writer to the head writer of a late-night show.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [09:00]: “I really stuck to her formula of like T shirts and pants and button down. But it was all elevated and the cuts were different.”

Kathleen also addresses online reactions to Ava's early style choices, acknowledging the emotional connections viewers have to fashion trends from their own pasts.

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Deborah Vance’s Maximalist Style Inspired by Kathleen’s Grandmother

Deborah Vance’s vibrant and maximalist style draws inspiration from Kathleen’s late grandmother, Mary, who was known for her flamboyant and meticulously curated appearance. This personal connection adds depth to Deborah’s character, infusing her wardrobe with rich textures, bold patterns, and an eclectic mix of vintage and high-end pieces.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [15:52]: “She was just slightly over the top. She's no longer with us, but I do have a large collection of her vintage costume jewelry that she collected. So I used some of that on Deborah.”

Collaborating closely with Jean Smart, Kathleen ensured that Deborah’s outfits remained character-driven, irrespective of the brand, thereby expanding the creative possibilities.

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Memorable Costume Moments and Deep-Cut References

Kathleen shares several standout moments, such as the fuchsia dress, which serves as a visual throughline linking Deborah’s past and present. This dress not only symbolizes her character’s journey but also ties back to sentimental elements like the reflection of her younger self.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [24:10]: “I'm quite fond of the fuchsia dress. It's just a sweet little through line about where she started and where she ended up.”

Additionally, Ava’s beloved vintage Nike T-shirt and its significance in character relationships are highlighted, showcasing how wardrobe choices can enhance narrative elements.

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Challenges of Costuming a Comedy vs. a Drama

Costuming for a comedy like "Hacks" presents unique challenges, particularly in balancing authenticity with humor. Kathleen discusses instances where costumes needed subtle adjustments to amplify comedic effect without compromising the character's believability. For example, altering Ava’s chic caddy outfit with a visor and rearranging her shirt for added humor during a golf retreat scene.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [25:32]: “I try to keep things grounded in reality. But I do love when there are moments where the camera finds funny things in the costumes.”

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Future Directions and Character Development

Looking ahead, Kathleen expresses excitement about further developing the characters' styles in potential future seasons. She emphasizes a desire to see how the evolving relationships and personal growth of Ava and Deborah will translate into their wardrobes, ensuring that costumes continue to reflect their dynamic lives.

Kathleen Felix-Hager [26:38]: “I'm excited to see where the story is going to take them. That's the main thing I'm excited about.”

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Conclusion

Kathleen Felix-Hager’s thoughtful and deeply personal approach to costume design has significantly contributed to the rich character development seen in "Hacks." By intertwining personal inspirations with professional expertise, she has crafted wardrobes that not only enhance the visual storytelling but also resonate emotionally with the audience. This episode offers a fascinating glimpse into the meticulous artistry behind the scenes, celebrating the pivotal role of costume design in shaping memorable television narratives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kathleen Felix-Hager [02:50]: “I just was like a little sponge and I just absolutely fell in love.”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [05:36]: “Everyone brings their thoughts and interpretation to the character, which I think is what makes costume design so interesting and exciting.”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [09:00]: “I really stuck to her formula of like T shirts and pants and button down. But it was all elevated and the cuts were different.”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [15:52]: “She was just slightly over the top... So I used some of that on Deborah.”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [24:10]: “I'm quite fond of the fuchsia dress...”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [25:32]: “I try to keep things grounded in reality. But I do love when there are moments where the camera finds funny things in the costumes.”
• Kathleen Felix-Hager [26:38]: “I'm excited to see where the story is going to take them.”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Kathleen Felix-Hager’s contributions to "Hacks," highlighting the thoughtful integration of fashion and character development that defines the show’s stylish narrative.

Transcript

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[Lauren Eggertson]

Welcome to the who what Wear?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors and tastemakers who are shaping the ever evolving world of fashion. I'm who what Wears Editorial director Lauren Eggertson. And today on the podcast, I'm so excited to be chatting with the costume designer of Hacks, Kathleen Felix Hager. Kathleen is an Emmy award winning costume designer, also known for her work on hit TV shows like Veep and Dexterity. I'm a huge Hacks fan, so I couldn't wait to dive into all things season four, from Ava's pant length evolution to dressing Deborah's new team of writers. We also get into the brands Kathleen leaned on to elevate Ava's wardrobe this season, the specific challenges of costuming a comedy, and how Kathleen's own grandmother served as something of a blueprint for Deborah Vance's vibrant, ostentatious style. It's all coming up on who what Where.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Hi Kathleen. I'm very excited to have you and thanks for joining us.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Oh, so nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Huge fan over here. So many of us at who what Wear are partly because of all of the amazing character arcs that you've created through the clothes. So I can't wait to dive into Deborah and Ava's individual style evolutions. But first, I would love to hear a little bit about what led you to even be here with this show. I've heard you kind of stumbled into costume design by accident, is that right?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Yes, very much by accident. My first job was on a film called Waterworld 1994. I was able to join the costume department there and just really was able to learn on the job. I was around the film industry growing up. My stepfather was in the business, so I was familiar with a lot of it. But the ins and outs of a costume department were very new to me and was able to like have the best school ever on that film. I mean, I was so green that I just was like a little sponge and I just absolutely fell in love.

[Lauren Eggertson]

So at what point through even like that first experience did you realize you really had a knack for costume design and wanted to make it into a full time career?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

I didn't really think about it as a career at that point because it was just so new to me and I was excited about learning all I could learn. But every job led to another job and I just really responded to the fact that you could tell a story through costumes. I was a big reader as a child. I still am a big reader. So I have a visual way of looking at a script. I think because of that, and really just how it can move a story forward I found fascinating and inspiring. So I just kind of kept plugging along.

[Lauren Eggertson]

And then how did you end up landing the job on Hacks?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Specifically, Morgan Sackett, who's producer of Hacks, was the producer on Veep. So I had worked with him previously and he called me up one day and he said he had a couple of scripts. He really wanted me to read this new show starring Jean Smart. And so I read the scripts and had a meeting with Morgan and the showrunners, Lucia, Jen and Paul, and just hit it off. I responded so strongly to the scripts and the relationship of these two women at two different points in their lives that I really could see Deborah Vance in my head. It was really smack dab in the middle of COVID It was like summer of 2020 and I wasn't even sure how we were going to work through it. We had to wear masks and shields, keep six feet apart. Even in my office. I had plexiglass around my desk. Like, I didn't really see people's faces until like we wrapped. I didn't know what people looked like. Everyone wore a mask and you couldn't hear anything. So it was challenging. But also kind of life saving to do something exciting, new and fresh and creative in this very weird time on the planet helped keep me sane in a very tangible way. I'm really grateful for that part of it. Also.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Definitely I'm curious what the interview process is like for Costume design. I've heard that there are, like, mood boards involved and concepting, and obviously you have to pitch what your vision is for certain characters, but I would love to hear what it looked like for hacks.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Sure. I did mood boards for both Ava and Deborah and did a digital lookbook and was able to share it and just gave my idea for what I thought Deborah Vance, in my head, looked like the inspiration. Same with Ava. And then it's just a jumping off point, you know, you're discussing with the creators. They respond to certain things. If someone else was going in for the job, their mood board would look completely different than mine, most likely. You know, everyone brings their thoughts and interpretation to the character, which I think is what makes costume design so interesting and exciting.

[Lauren Eggertson]

So when you were first reading those scripts, what would you say really struck you the most about Deborah and Ava as characters on paper that helped you translate their characters in real life once you started pulling things and creating looks for them?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

What I respond to a lot is the collaboration between the actor and myself, and it's a really important relationship to build trust. They bring ideas to the table also. But I really responded to the fact that these were two women in two very different points in their lives. I really read it as, like, this kind of love story between these two women and how they are sort of opposite sides of the same coin, so to speak. I just ran with that idea. And Deborah Vance has been a character that's been really close to my heart, and I just love her.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I love her, too. Her wardrobe is incredible. I just love it so much. And Ava's is so funny to me. But obviously between the two, you had to build out each character's style in a way that felt lived in and really true to them in their daily lives. I would imagine you also had to think about them in contrast with one another. Deborah obviously hates how Ava dresses. I remember the first time that they meet. Deborah insults Ava's chimney sweep boots. Were there any other specific pieces maybe like that that you picked for Ava that you think Deborah just despises?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Well, definitely those Doc Martin boots she hated. You know, Ava, when we first meet her, she's like a fledgling writer. She had just been canceled on Twitter. She's new to la, so she's really finding her voice and her style doesn't have a lot of money. When we first meet her, she does a lot of vintage thrifting, but not really putting it together in a way that makes sense. I mean, it makes sense to her, but it really offends Deborah because Deborah has a sense of style and taste and presents herself in a way that she wants to be seen. Her taste is a little over the top and she likes to mix patterns and colors. But Deborah Vance isn't tacky, and Ava just sort of like barrels through. When we first meet her, she's just kind of a bull in a china shop. So it's been fun to see Ava's progression over these four seasons, how her style has evolved. I think especially in season four, we see a more grown up Ava Daniels. She's head writer now of the late night show and she has a little bit more money to spend on her clothes. It's been a nice sort of evolution from the early 20s to your later 20s, you sort of find yourself. And I think Ava this year has found not only her voice, but her style too.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Can you walk me through a little bit, how you visualize that evolution for her through her clothes? Like, as a viewer, I definitely notice she has her kind of wardrobe formula. It's like pants and a T shirt, button down, layered over it maybe. But I feel like even those individual staples I've noticed getting more elevated, more polished. There may be brands we might recognize.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Yeah, she did a little bit. You know, we upped the brands that we used for her. We used a lot of Officine General. We used a lot of toteme. We used Kalmier Studio, Nicholson, Paris. We used a lot. A piece of part we used. I really stuck to her formula of like T shirts and pants and button down. But it was all elevated and the cuts were different. The fabrics were nicer. She had more expensive seats, sneakers. This year she upgrades to a Louis Vuitton tote at one point, season four. So she. She switches out her jewelry. She always wore these little dainty gold pieces we switched out. So she's got some really beautiful silver pieces now. Just subtle things that made her feel more grown up.

[Lauren Eggertson]

We definitely noticed that. And all those brands you listed, they're like that kind of quiet luxury wardrobe builders that people at that age are starting to invest in. So I think it just makes so much sense. And as a fashion person, it was so cool to see that happening on Ava.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Oh, thank you. Yeah, we always want to keep Ava grounded in reality. And the show is so LA based this season. That also played up into the costumes and the pieces that we chose. And I thought she looked great this year.

[Lauren Eggertson]

She really did. We also have to talk about her pant length evolution. I'm sure you're aware of the lore that's going on on the Internet. But in the first couple of seasons, Ava was all about a high waisted cropped pant with a healthy amount of sock combat boot showing. And the crop has been very divisive online. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on why that was her. Go to silhouette, assuming that that's the last we've seen of them now that she's had this transformation a little bit.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Well, when we first meet Ava, like that's what she thought was cool. You know, that was her trying to fit in with la cool. Right. And so as she evolved and grew, your fashion choices evolve and grow. So she's still in high waisted pants, which looks so super flattering on her. We upgraded her combat boots. She wor Frida Salvador loafers a lot. She could still wear them with sneakers. She still wore socks, but you could see them. We just tried to give her a more sophisticated look this season. And I think the fact that people hated those pants was also good because sometimes you see someone on the street and you're like, I don't understand what's happening. But Ava thought that that was cool and that's what she could afford at the time and those were her choices.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Yeah. It's also so like millennial coded in a lot of ways, like thinking back to like a time period where that was cool and. And that's why people prob emotional response to it too, because they probably wore that at a very specific time in their life and the feelings are coming back up. On the Hacks companion podcast, I heard that you mentioned you also get a lot of Ava's style inspiration from the two showrunners that you've previously mentioned, Lucia Aniello and Jen Statsky. Are there any looks in particular that evoke those two?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Ava really is a combination of Jen and Lucia's personal style. They're just really smart, amazing women. Jen will be in a hoodie and a pair of jeans and sneakers, but for some reason she just looks like the coolest girl in the room. So whenever Ava comes to set and Jen flips out over her costume, then I'm like, oh, I have a win. So this is good news. But it's always fun for me when I make the two of those ladies happy.

[Anna]

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[Lauren Eggertson]

Okay, I know we've talked a lot about Ava. We have to talk about Deborah's style, which has also evolved from season one to season four in many ways. I believe you based some of Deborah's looks on your grandmother. And I also want to just know if you can share a little bit about your grandmother's style and maybe some specific reference points from her that helped shape Deborah's whole vibe.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Yeah, well, my grandmother's name was Mary, and she was a very flamboyant woman who liked to smoke and drink and listen to jazz. You know, her hair was done, her makeup was done. Nails. Even if she had, like, a sweatsuit, it was, like, matching and somehow bedazzled. So she was just slightly over the top. She's no longer with us, but I do have a large collection of her vintage costume jewelry that she collected. So I used some of that on Deborah. Wow. I think that my grandmother would be very happy to see that. And then talking with Jean about Deborah Vance, you know, more is more. We couldn't put enough jewelry, enough pattern, enough color, enough feathers. At the beginning of season one, she was slightly hesitant to some of the things that I had suggested. She would be interested in them, but she would say, oh, honey, I can't wear that. That's too blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, no one's in here but you and I, so let's just try it on and see what happens. And then she would put it on, and she'd look at me and say, well, you were right. So after several of those times, she started to trust me, and I would put things together, and she was sort of like, that's a lot, but I trust you. So we just had fun playing around with the over the topness of Deborah Vance.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I mean, she is over the top. I feel like what I notice is that she's typically in maybe some sort of pant with, like, a collared, silky shirt. Loves a sparkle, loves an embellishment and a pattern. But even if she's just at home drinking a martini or in the daytime taking meetings. She just has that sort of uniform about her in a way. So I'm curious what it was like to build out that maximalist wardrobe. Were there specific brands that you went to or was it a lot of vintage? What was your approach?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

You know, I would be out shopping, something would catch my eye, something would sparkle or a color or a shape. It was just a lot of play. We used a lot of vintage shopping for her. I shopped some higher end consignment things that we purchase. You know, we sort of established early on that Deborah Vance is a lover of clothes and collector of clothes. You saw that last season in her big closet. That's a warehouse. So it's like, even if it's not the most current, so to speak, fashion or trendiest, it doesn't really matter. We look for shape and color and fabric. And the thing that's great also about Jean, as an actor, she doesn't have an ego about brands or anything like that. I can show her something from TJ Maxx or Dillard's or Saks and she's equally as happy as long as it's character driven. So that makes the world much bigger for us too.

[Lauren Eggertson]

My view of Deborah's wardrobe warehouse of a closet, like it's not just about the brands, it's also about her life, well lived and all of these crazy things she's curated. And outside of her more casual day to day looks, Deborah also obviously has so many key performances. And I imagine that you're very strategic about what you dress her in for those moments this season, obviously she has her first run through of the late night show and of course there's the actual premiere of the late night show. So can you walk me through how you choose what she's going to wear for one of the biggest moments of her career so far?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Arguably it was interesting because I tried not to overthink it too much because I kept thinking, oh, it's a lot of pressure for one outfit. But considering the fact that I knew that she had to do the late night show, then she went out, she had dinner, she ended up in a club in a go go cage. So it had to meet that criteria also. And I also had to have multiples of it. I worked closely with Rob Tokars, who was our production designer. He was building the set. So we worked closely with color and that pinky bronzy background of the curtain. I came upon that bronze ombre pants and then I made the jack and it was a bronzier color than the actual backdrop of the curtain. But I really love the fact that it was sort of a similar tone. When she came out of that curtain, she was emerging from all of those sequins, and I thought it was really beautiful. I do like to look at the sets a lot and see what the environment is going to be. Either deciding to play into the color scheme or just to completely go opposite.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. This set, too, is very different than the Palmetto stage in Vegas. What are the biggest differences between how she dresses for late night versus her Vegas residency? Because I know there was mention of how a late night host should be dressing, quote, unquote, according to focus groups executives. She has a lot of pressure on her. So how did you execute that?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

You know, we did a lot of pantsuits with embellished blazers. We also did a lot of dresses for her this season to show off her legs. That was fun. She wears way more dresses in season four than she's ever worn before. What I really responded to a lot on that set was color. So I tried to do fuchsia and emerald green and royal blue and things that really can help make her pop in that set and everything she wore on the late night set. My tailor, Rory Cunningham, is an artist, and he would bedazzle and bead and rhinestone every piece so it would catch the light. So we did a lot of beading and rhinestoning on things this season.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I love a bedazzled look on Deborah. It's so her. I also have to ask about some of the other characters, specifically Meg Stalter's character, Kayla. She has one of the boldest, kookiest wardrobes in the show. She has that crazy confidence of an EPO baby who cannot be fired for what she's wearing. She does her own thing. How did you develop her style? Like, what was the mood board for Kayla?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Just exactly what you said. I just wanted her to be bold and confident. And having met Meg, Meg herself is just a very confident person. She's confident in her skin and who she is in her body. And it's amazing. It's such a joy to have a fitting with her because there's nothing that she's shy about or self conscious about. She just embraces it all. And she is so much fun to work with. The fact that she puts these crazy things together in a different way. Like, Kayla dresses to please herself. She does not care about what anyone else thinks. If everyone could have the confidence of Meg Stalter, we would be Better people.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Totally. I love all of the nuances too. When she played pickleball and, like, her headband is just in the weirdest place, you know, like little things like that where someone else would probably be in the mirror, like fixating on the exact placement of the headband with their hair and their ears and your pony. Like, she just has it on, and it's weird. And those little things about her are my favorite.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

I work also really closely with our hair and makeup team on all the characters. So I will send photos to the hair and makeup team so they'll know what Kayla's wearing. So they do a beautiful job of making crazy on top of crazy for Kayla. So it's really fun.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I love that. Okay. This season we're also introduced to Deborah's new team of writers. There are clearly a few, like, writer archetype characters in the mix, and I'm curious if any of the actual hacks, staff writers helped inspire the looks for her new team.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Not the writers so much, but there was one character. His name is Elliot. He's one of the writers. I took a lot of inspiration for his costumes from our dp, Adam Brooker, who dresses in, like, a very specific, very cool way. That was fun to sort of riff on Adam Brecker and his style. I think we have nine or 10 writers. We had so many scenes with them. And we started out this season on location in Vegas with all of the writers. And so that was like a big, massive pull fit shop for all of them. But they were great. It was really fun to work with all of them.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Yeah, I love seeing all of their styles. It's very LA niche. It was great. There have also been several fashion moments that are very specific and just so highly memorable. The Big Bird dress from season three, for one. That whole moment is just so funny. But I'm curious for you, from your perspective, if there are other looks throughout the seasons that really stick out to you as especially memorable or any, like, deep cut references that only you would know or your team or maybe only a few people would have caught.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Oh, there's so many. I love that yellow dress too. There's a little reference or not a little reference, but we see a young Deborah doing her first late night show. She's in a fuchsia dress. We see that fuchsia dress on a mannequin in the warehouse scene very briefly. And there's also a scene right before she goes out on her late night show where she's looking in the mirror and she sees a reflection of her younger self in that fuchsia dress. So I'm quite fond of the fuchsia dress. It's just a sweet little through line about where she started and where she ended up. And Ava has one T shirt that's barely surviving. It's held together by spit and tape at this point. It's this old vintage Nike T shirt that she's worn every season that is just, like, beloved. And I just feel like it's very her. And at one point, she was dating the character of Ruby. There was, like, a little montage, and Ruby was wearing the Nike T shirt. So I love moments like that.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I'm also curious about the specific challenges of costuming, a comedy versus a drama, or any other genre. I read that in season three, when they're on the golf retreat, which is one of my favorite episodes, Ava looked too chic in the caddy outfit and that you had to add a visor, flip her shirt around just for that comedic effect. Are there any other moments you can think of where you've had to essentially make the clothes funnier?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

We really try on hacks to keep things grounded in reality, so that was sort of the challenge for me with that Big Bird Dr. It was just scripted that it was an ugly yellow dress, and I tried really hard to make sure it wasn't an overtly jokey moment. I wanted you to still believe that she would have bought that dress and would have thought it was pretty at one time. So I really try to keep things grounded in reality. But I do love when there are moments where the camera finds things funny in the costumes. Like a scene early on when the character of DJ played by Caitlin Olsen, is playing the Jurassic park theme on the piano, and she had these really crazy Lucite stilettos on, and the camera just zeroed in on her feet pedaling the piano. I love moments like that where they can just find funny things inherently in what's happening. And the clothing can kind of help tell the story a little bit. But try not to make the clothes jokey.

[Lauren Eggertson]

I have one last question. I know the show hasn't officially been renewed for Season 5 yet, but if it is, what would you be excited about in terms of evolving these characters even further?

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Oh, I'm just excited to see where the story is going to take them. Even though I work in the show, I'm a fan of the show, and I'm a fan of these characters, and I've grown very fond of them, and I'm excited to see where their relationship's going to go. That's the main thing I'm excited about to see where it all, how it's all going to end.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Yeah, me too. The beginning of season four is just even so tough. Like I want them to love each other because I know they love each other. And it never gets old. The ups and downs of Ava and Deborah I'm excited to see too.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

I know, Me too. I mean, I know this season has been like hard for people because they're at odds, but I think that's what happens sometimes in life, right? You hit rough patches. And I think that's what's so special about the show. They don't shy away from the messiness of these characters lives. I mean they're not perfect people. They're flawed. And I think that's why we love them so much because we can all relate to certain aspects of both of them.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Definitely. Well, Kathleen, thank you so much for joining us. This was truly a treat. We can't wait to see what you do with these characters, hopefully in the future. We're just so grateful for your time and this has been so fun to chat. So thank you.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

Thank you. It was so nice to talk to you too.

A huge thank you to Hax Coffee costume designer Kathleen Felix Hager. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you.

[Lauren Eggertson]

Don'T miss an episode.

[Kathleen Felix Hager]

And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you would rate and review us. If you have guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a [e-mail] or you can find us on social at whowhatwear. See you next Wednesday on the who what Where? Podcast. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris and Natalie Thurman. Our editor is Ko Takasugi Chernovin. Our audio engineers are at Glen Canyon Audio and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.

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