Inside Anora’s Hyperrealistic Sex Worker Costumes With Costume Designer Jocelyn Pierce

Summary

The Who What Wear Podcast: Inside Anora’s Hyperrealistic Sex Worker Costumes With Costume Designer Jocelyn Pierce

Release Date: November 6, 2024
Host: Cat Collings
Guest: Jocelyn Pierce, Costume Designer for the Palme d'Or-winning film Anora
Episode Title: Inside Anora’s Hyperrealistic Sex Worker Costumes With Costume Designer Jocelyn Pierce

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Who What Wear Podcast, host Cat Collings engages in an in-depth conversation with Jocelyn Pierce, the acclaimed costume designer behind the 2024 Palme d'Or-winning film, Anora. The film intricately portrays the life of an exotic dancer from Brooklyn who marries the son of a Russian oligarch. Pierce's work has been lauded for its authenticity and evocative design, bringing depth to the characters and the narrative. This summary delves into the key discussions, insights, and creative processes shared during the episode.

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Collaborating with Director Sean Baker

[02:36] Jocelyn Pierce: "Hi, Kat."

The conversation kicks off with Jocelyn Pierce and director Sean Baker exchanging greetings. Sean Baker expresses his admiration for Anora after viewing it in theaters, congratulating Pierce on her Palme d'Or win.

[03:03] Jocelyn Pierce: "Me too. It's so wild. And I keep getting texts from friends that are, like, seeing it impact theaters, and it's so exciting."

Pierce highlights Baker's emphasis on experiencing films as intended on the big screen, underscoring the communal joy of watching Anora.

[04:47] Sean Baker: "So, I know Sean Baker's film aesthetic is very signature to him... How did you approach initially, the costumes or brainstorms around what everyone would be wearing?"

Pierce explains that while Anora retains Baker’s trademark authenticity and grit, it ventures into a larger scale reminiscent of 70s cinema. The use of vintage Russian lenses and night-time New York settings heavily influenced the costume design, aiming to blend high fashion aspirations with street-level realism.

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Immersing in Brighton Beach for Authenticity

[06:16] Sean Baker: "Also part of the creative process was moving the cast and the crew to Brighton Beach to research and find inspiration for the film."

Pierce narrates the unique experience of immersing the team in Brighton Beach—a neighborhood steeped in Russian culture. This close proximity allowed for genuine interactions and observations, which deeply informed the costume designs.

[07:10] Jocelyn Pierce: "I would encourage anyone to get on the subway and go visit Brighton beach... it's culturally super rich."

This immersion ensured that the costumes reflected the true essence of the community, moving away from stereotypical portrayals to something more nuanced and real.

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Character-Specific Costume Insights

Igor’s Costume:

[07:22] Jocelyn Pierce: "Igor's costume maybe looks basic. Cause it is. It’s like Uniqlo or something."

Pierce discusses Igor’s understated wardrobe—tapered joggers, white sneakers, and a black puffer coat—as a reflection of his character's quiet strength and role as a "quiet hero" in the narrative. The simplicity of his attire underscores his genuine nature and compassionate demeanor.

Yura’s Costume:

[08:40] Jocelyn Pierce: "He was so methodical. He poked little holes in the jacket... it just became a second skin."

Yura, portrayed by Yura, fully embodies his character by wearing his costume both on and off set. This level of commitment adds depth to his portrayal, making his attire a true extension of his character's identity.

Yvonne and Annie’s Costumes:

[10:39] Jocelyn Pierce: "They were amazing... Majority were real dancers from clubs like Pumps."

The costumes for the background dancers and main characters like Yvonne and Annie were authentic representations of real-life dancers, enhancing the film's realistic ambiance. By incorporating the actors' personal styles and practical considerations, Pierce ensured that each costume served both aesthetic and narrative purposes.

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Symbolism and Thematic Elements in Costumes

Butterfly Motif:

[13:54] Jocelyn Pierce: "The butterfly had some layered symbolism... in Russian, night butterfly can be a slang term for a sex worker."

The butterfly symbolizes metamorphosis and transition, aligning with Annie’s journey in the film. Additionally, it reclaims a derogatory term, adding layers of meaning to the character's evolution.

Red Scarf and Blanket:

[16:26] Jocelyn Pierce: "Red was the color Sean wanted to pop... evokes passion and danger."

Red elements—such as the scarf and blanket—serve as visual anchors throughout the film, symbolizing key emotional and narrative moments. These choices enhance the film's visual storytelling, making subtle yet impactful statements.

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Practical Considerations: Footwear and Functionality

[14:41] Jocelyn Pierce: "They were pros or ladies were barefoot... Some shoes like Diamond Pleasers have unique designs."

Pierce highlights the practical aspects of costume design, especially concerning footwear. Balancing aesthetic appeal with the dancers' need for comfort and functionality was crucial. Unique shoe designs, like those of Diamond Pleasers, added character depth and style to the performances.

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Navigating Indie Filmmaking Constraints

Budget and Creativity:

[29:53] Jocelyn Pierce: "It was absolutely an indie film... Artists helping other artists."

Despite budget limitations, Pierce leveraged community resources and collaborations with independent artists to source and create unique costume pieces. This approach not only maintained authenticity but also fostered a supportive creative environment.

[32:04] Jocelyn Pierce: "Costumes and art shared an office... It's really so intimate and it's so truly collaborative."

The intimate and collaborative workspace enabled quick decision-making and seamless integration of creative ideas, a stark contrast to the bureaucratic processes of larger productions.

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Memorable Costume Moments

Wedding Outfits:

[20:54] Jocelyn Pierce: "We had to sort of reimagine that... it just becomes put together."

The impromptu nature of the characters' wedding required thoughtful costume adjustments to reflect spontaneity and authenticity. The final looks—Annie’s corset with denim shorts and Yvonne’s eclectic blazer over basketball shorts—captured the unique dynamics of their relationship.

Vegas Montage:

[34:15] Jocelyn Pierce: "We had a lot of fun in Vegas... everybody's putting on their favorite party clothes."

The vibrant and colorful costumes in Las Vegas contrasted with the darker New York settings, symbolizing a shift in the characters' lives and enhancing the visual storytelling during high-energy scenes.

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Lessons Learned and Future Implications

[35:32] Jocelyn Pierce: "I learned to roll with the punches... surrender to the process."

Pierce shares valuable lessons from working on Anora, emphasizing the importance of intuition, flexibility, and collaboration. Embracing spontaneity and trusting her creative instincts proved essential in overcoming challenges and achieving authentic costume designs.

[37:09] Jocelyn Pierce: "Once you know your characters that well, you can't go wrong."

Understanding characters deeply allows for costume choices that naturally align with their personalities and arcs, reinforcing the story’s emotional resonance.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Jocelyn Pierce and Sean Baker reflecting on the creative journey behind Anora. Pierce expresses her gratitude for the collaborative environment and the lessons learned, which have profoundly shaped her approach to costume design. Sean Baker reiterates the film's emotional impact and the significance of experiencing it in theaters as intended.

[38:12] Jocelyn Pierce: "I hope everybody goes to see it in a theater like Sean intended it."

This episode offers a comprehensive look into the meticulous and heartfelt process of costume design in filmmaking, highlighting how authentic attire can elevate storytelling and character development.

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Notable Quotes

• Jocelyn Pierce [07:22]: "Igor's costume maybe looks basic. Cause it is. It’s like Uniqlo or something. He’s this guy. He's this quiet hero."

• Jocelyn Pierce [13:54]: "The butterfly had some layered symbolism... in Russian, night butterfly can be a slang term for a sex worker."

• Jocelyn Pierce [35:32]: "I learned to roll with the punches... surrender to the process."

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Closing Remarks

This episode of The Who What Wear Podcast not only sheds light on the intricate art of costume design but also celebrates the collaborative spirit that fuels creative excellence in indie filmmaking. Jocelyn Pierce’s dedication to authenticity and her dynamic partnership with Sean Baker serve as inspiring examples for aspiring designers and filmmakers alike.

Transcript

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[Cat Collings]

Welcome to the who what wear podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors and taste makers who are shaping the ever evolving world of fashion. I'm who what where? Editor in Chief Cat Collings, and today I'm speaking with Jocelyn Pierce, the costume Designer of the 2024 Palme d'Or winning film, Anora. Anora tells the story of an exotic dancer from Brooklyn who falls in love with and marries the son of a Russian oligarch. And Jocelyn is already getting praised for her authentic, evocative and lived in costume design. To prepare for the movie, Jocelyn spent a lot of time in Brighton beach where the film is set, to get a sense of the world she was creating. She even invited some of the real life dancers who appeared in the film to bring in their own clothing to use. Jocelyn is here today to talk about how she worked with director Sean Baker and a host of other influences from the cast itself to the Russian community of Brighton beach to develop the aesthetic of the film's costumes. It's all coming up on who, what where.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Hi, Kat.

[Sean Baker]

Hi, Jocelyn. How are you?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

I'm good. How are you?

[Sean Baker]

Good. Thank you so much for joining me. I just saw Anora last night in theaters and I was blown away and I was looking for your credit and it was exciting to see it and just bring it all together by speaking to you today. So congrats on the Palm d'orwan at Cannes and I'm so glad this film is expanding for a wide release so everyone can go see it.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Me too. It's so wild. And I keep getting texts from friends that are, like, seeing it impact theaters, and it's so exciting. I know Sean Baker keeps saying this in a lot of his interviews, like, how important it is to go out and see films as they're intended to be seen, you know, on a big screen. And it's exciting that people are having that experience.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, the crowd I was in last night, it enhances it so much where, like, the crowd is laughing because there are a lot of very humorous moments I find in the movie. And it's just such a group experience. And it was a delight.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It's true. And I saw something the other day too, that was like, it's so beautiful to see a line around the block for a movie that doesn't have superheroes in it. For a human story, it's really moving.

[Sean Baker]

Absolutely. So tell me how you first got approached to be part of Anora, and what excited you about the story? What made you want to come on board?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It was like a phone call out of the blue from Alex Coco, who is a producer on the film and who is John's sort of right hand man. I had costume designed a movie with Alex called the Sweet East. And I guess when Sean had been looking for a costume designer, Alex put my name forward. And when he reached out and asked if I was interested, I was like, yeah, of course I'm interested. I'm such an indie girly. Obviously, I knew who Shawn Baker was. I had seen all his movies, so I was thrilled. Like, in a way, I kind of felt like, is this a case of mistaken identity? It just felt like, I can't believe I'm gonna talk to Sean Baker. But then I did, and he's a super down to earth, interesting guy, and it just kind of flowed and it was right beautiful.

[Sean Baker]

So I know Shawn Baker's film aesthetic is very signature to him. Like gritty, saturated, lived in. He even uses the same typeface for every movie title. You know, knowing you would be working within this world that's a bit established and has its own brand identity. How did you approach initially, the costumes or brainstorms around what everyone would be wearing?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

I knew from an early conversation with Sean that this would be a different aesthetic. I mean, it's similar to his other films in its truthfulness and its authenticity and its realness. But he seemed aware that he wanted to do like a bigger scale picture. Like, early on, he was sort of referencing 70s cinema and just like bigger production value. I mean, he keeps it small in terms of crew and everything. But I knew we were shooting on vintage Russian lenses and on film. And we were gonna be filming at night in New York City and then in Las Vegas. So there's something about, like, the dark clubs and the streets at night and all of that that started to inform a lot early on. You know, right away, you've gotta use light where you can, you know, and use any fabrics or shine. Early on, we talked a lot about, like, editorials and magazine photos and this sort of, like, we wanted to take it from the aspirational version of the sort of high fashion world and then get real and take it to the streets.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah. Also part of the creative process was moving the cast and the crew to Brighton Beach.

[Bobby Schessler]

Right.

[Sean Baker]

To research and find inspiration for the film. So I'm curious what that looks like. Getting to know the feel of a city. Do you do that for other projects or is this you?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

This was unique. I mean, I wasn't living in Brighton Beach. Our offices were there and the cast and producers, director, there were a lot of people living there. It was home base for everybody all the time. And we were in prep for maybe six weeks or something, or maybe it was eight weeks. We might as well have been living there. I mean, we were like, there all the time. I mean, it's so heavily Russian influenced. It's an amazing neighborhood. The food is great. I would encourage anyone to get on the subway and go visit Brighton beach, because it's a trip, you know, like, it really has so much Russian culture that you could almost feel like you're in Little Russia and it's culturally super rich.

[Sean Baker]

Absolutely. And I'm sure helped mentally, like, put the characters in the location, just sort of paint an environment for them by soaking up the energy there and working on all the pre production stuff there.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And you know, Sean is famous for sort of street casting and casting real people, quote, unquote, like, similar with costumes. It was sort of like this cultural anthropological dig. Like, you see something enough times in the world that you're in that you're like. It becomes evidence of a truth. And like, Igor's character is, I think, really I had other ideas for Igor. And Sean kept seeing this aesthetic on the street that was tapered joggers, white sneakers, black puffer coat. And it's like, I kind of wanted to take that character somewhere a little quirkier. But Sean was like, no, that's him. You know, that's him. We'd be on the street, he'd snap a picture of a guy on the street. It was like Enough times that it was like, that's him. He's this guy. And what I love so much about that costume, Igor's costume maybe looks basic. Cause it is. They are basics that he's wearing. But because it was something that we had seen over and over again, and it was a style that we were like, okay, this is truthful. It started to feel right. And then Yura, who plays Igor, he was like, can I wear my costume home? And then he started wearing his costume home every day. And he'd come to work in it, and he'd leave in it. I'd see him, like, around town on the weekends, and he'd be wearing it.

[Sean Baker]

Oh, wow.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

He was so methodical. It's so fascinating to me that, like, he aged it down himself. He poked little holes in the jacket, and he would, like, do his laundry, and he put it back on. And it was like he wore it so much that it just became a second skin. And that something so basic became incredibly soulful. And I actually feel like it really comes across in the movie.

[Sean Baker]

I love hearing the backstory of this, that it was like, evidence was collected that this was what he should be wearing. And it is so understated. It's almost like Uniqlo or something. Like, it's just very basic basics. And I feel like it kind of, to me, touches on the character he plays, which is essentially a hired thug who works for Ivan's father. And he kind of becomes this quiet hero of the film. And I think the understatedness of his outfit plays in well to this, like, unexpected hero in the fairy tale. And I love that he, like, wanted to embody the character so much that he wore it sounds like almost all the time.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah, it was so beautiful. And it's true. His character really is, like, where in the film we see real compassion and kindness. There's such a, like, quiet support that he has the whole time. And, yeah, there's such a feeling. And I really do believe with costumes, like, sometimes it's the way in for an actor. And even if it is something basic, it's like once you make it yours and it becomes real, it's like it's just magic.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, it's such a tool for the actor to become their character. We also have to talk about Headquarters, the club, which is Honora or Annie's place of work when the story begins. And one thing I'm so interested in is how many of the actual Headquarters dancers acted and consulted on Anora as well. So tell me all about this, like, Getting to know the real people you were trying to portray and how they informed your work as a costume designer.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

They were amazing.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It is true. I believe all of our background dancers, and not just background, some specific speaking roles in the club, they're all real dancers. I'm not sure how many of them work at headquarters, but it's majority.

[Sean Baker]

Okay.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Some of them, I think, came from Pumps.

[Sean Baker]

Pumps, okay.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Which is another club. And it was so cool. I mean, there was such an excited and supportive energy. I think it was fun for them, I hope. Yeah. And for costumes, everybody was so generous. And most people brought their own clothes for the club scenes, with a few exceptions. And, you know, we would pick the placement of certain things. And then we had stuff with us, too. If we had a specific color we wanted to pop or, like, a specific piece we wanted. But for the most part, the ladies would roll in with a suitcase, and we would go through their stuff. It was a costume design that money can't buy, and it was always gonna be better if we were going with the real deal. And the women all were super confident, had their own personal styles, and it just added a sort of flavor to the club that we didn't want it to look like a fake movie club. It was so fun. I mean, being in the dressing room at the club with hair and makeup and costumes and all the ladies in and out was like it was a party. I'm sure it was cool to witness. You know, it was like there was a lot to learn, especially for Annie's character and for diamond and some of the ladies. We did dress, although diamond did bring a lot of her own pieces as well. She's got amazing style. We learned a lot about the practicality, like, where do you keep your money? And there was also what Annie was gonna look like on that subway ride home after the first night of the club. It cuts to her on the subway, and she's in, like, big, oversized jacket and cargo pants and Uggs. And we heard from lots of ladies, like, you know, when you're done with work, it's been a long night. You've been completely physically exhausted, and you've given a lot of energy. And they were like, we don't want to be followed home. We don't want to be noticed, you know?

[Sean Baker]

So it almost sounds like that transition, which I feel like was pretty noticeable in the movie, when she goes home from the club and is totally stripped down, no makeup, a beanie, and a puffer jacket. There's an element of just wanting to be comfortable and also an element of protecting yourself and keeping the visual identity separate from your working self and your private personal self. I also feel like earrings were such a big, you know, how it progresses. At the end, they're not wearing very much. There's not a lot of fabric or anything. So, like, I noticed so many of the women had big personality earrings. And I loved seeing the ways that they, like, expressed their personal style and their individuality through accessorizing as well.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yes. We're in a dark club. There's really moody lighting, and anything that can catch that light on film is going to pop a little. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Sean Baker]

I feel like there was a lot of, like, red and black, but we also see sparkles and silver jewelry and hardware, butterflies and stars. And so those elements really kind of stood out as, like, themes in the wardrobe. And I'm curious how you developed Honora's personal style and decided on some of those motifs.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Well, the butterfly had some layered symbolism. You know, on one hand, it obviously butterflies symbolize like, a metamorphosis or transition. But also we learned that in Russian, night butterfly can be a slang term for a sex worker.

[Sean Baker]

Right. They used that one time in the dialogue.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. We were sort of taking that term and taking the power back.

[Sean Baker]

Very cool. I love that. The hidden message behind the butterfly, she had it on her hands and then also on the back of her legs, the tattoo. And I love that little detail. What about logistics around? You know, some of the shoes for the women dancers are so tall. Do you have to have, like, a lot of pairs of, like, flat shoes to switch into or. They were pros and were just, like, could be in them for hours on end.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

They were pros or ladies were barefoot or running around the club, or they had their own flippers and things. Some of the shoes I was so obsessed with, there are certain shoes that I was like, I hope there's a close up of these where there was a shot where you could see them, like diamonds pleasers are. The heel is this old western looking pistol.

[Sean Baker]

Oh, cool.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

I think there was plenty of footage, but it didn't make the cut. And I was like, oh, from your.

[Sean Baker]

Perspective, obviously there are the characters, but some of the wardrobe choices are also, like, heroes in their own right.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And you get so attached to them. Like, it's actually. It's like a really strange experience to watch a film for the first time having worked on it, I bet. Because for me, like, the first time I saw it was in Cannes. I was like, sort of holding my breath. I mean, it was so epic and exciting to see it in that context, but then also to be like, what made the cut? And did I make any mistakes? Did we make continuity mistakes? It's hard to watch it objectively because you know everything.

[Sean Baker]

Right.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

And then I just saw it again two weeks ago at the premiere, and I was convinced that I was watching a different cut of the film. But I think I just saw it for the first time because I was able to watch it from an audience perspective in it. It, like, took me out. I mean, it was so strange. I knew every moment of that film. I knew what was gonna happen, and it still just, like, bowled me over.

[Sean Baker]

Right. Especially the ending, which I will not say a further word about for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. But, wow. Going off of the symbolism of the butterfly, I was curious if there is any idea behind the red scarf that seems to play such a role and is so striking. And especially, you know, there's so many night scenes, like, it's. And so vivid. And then at the end, there's a red blanket, too. And it just feels like red has a moment through the movie.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It was scripted that the scarf was red.

[Sean Baker]

Okay.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

And Sean had mentioned early on that red was the color he wanted to pop. I assumed that that was also some sort of a reference to Russia. Or maybe it's just that red. Obviously, red evokes so much. It's like, there's passion, there's danger. Sometimes there's a wardrobe description in a script. But Shawn is incredibly flexible and is so fluid. I mean, he's so open to inspiration as you go. If we get a new piece of information or something authentic that we pick up along the way it's going in the movie. But, yeah, those red moments were in there from early treatments of the script, and they stuck. And I'm glad they did, because on that boardwalk at night, it's like, it couldn't have been any other color.

[Sean Baker]

Right. It is the most potent color visually. It made an impact. And I love kind of what you touched on about the collaboration between Sean Baker, the director, and how he considers his team's ideas that might not be written to the script, or maybe they are written to the script. And I was curious if there are any unexpected costume pivots or ideas that were born from, like, oh, well, let's try this. That kind of came together unexpectedly.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. I mean, with Mark, who plays Yvonne, I don't think I've ever had more fun in a fitting in my life than every time we fit Mark, he's like, so wildly inventive and playful. And it was like where we started with Mark with our boards and where Mark ends up on film are just worlds away. That process is so fun because it's like, all right, he's a rich kid, and it's like he can have whatever he wants. So he's gonna have all of this high end luxury clothing. And Mark came in the picture and he has this, like, wild charm, and like, he's eclectic. Things started to take shape in such a different way. It was so fun and unexpected, and that's where we started to be like, okay, sure, he has the high end luxury item, but he's also gonna mix it with a sweatshirt that a local artist put graffiti on or some streetwear that refere video games. But the collaboration was key because he just knew who he was so deeply. And then we started to know who he was, and it makes the collaboration so fun. It's like the way you'd be out in his shop and you'd be like, oh, you know, my mother would love this sweater, because you know her and you know what she likes. It's like, then we'd be taking sort of bigger swings with Mark because we were like, oh, Mark can pull it off. We can play. And thank God he is who he is, because I think that's what makes so much of the film work, is like, he's not a guy you can put your finger on.

[Sean Baker]

No, not quite. And he's very unique. Like you said, it's the wealth, and then there's this juvenile element to it, being only 22. So. Yeah, I love that the actor helped develop what his character wore. It's so cool.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And I'll say Mikey was very collaborative too. I mean, talk about knowing your character. She was fully immersed. I mean, she was doing intense dance training. She was learning to speak Russian. She was speaking in a New York accent that's not her own. And we did so many fittings. Things were sort of changing and fluid all the time. So there was always new ideas and always something coming in that was an experiment or that was just like something that we thought might work in the beginning. And then suddenly you're like, it's not her anymore. You know, we're getting to know her better, and we're, like, going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. She knew, you know, like, it's so great when actors will play with you because it's. We want it to be real. We need to believe this, and I hope everyone did.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, I think the authenticity of the characters and how easy it was to connect with them emotionally is, to me, one of the strongest points of the film. And I think that plays out in their clothing. And one outfit pairing that I remember quite well is their wedding outfits in Las Vegas. And it just felt so, speaking on that theme of authenticity, like, realistic for this spontaneous situation because Annie's wearing a corset and some cutoff denim shorts. Like, there's not even any bridal gear, like a veil or anything. And Yvonne's in this custom printed. I hope I'm pronouncing the brand correctly. Bom the blazer over basketball shorts, which. It really just speaks to his style in a nutshell. I'm curious how the wedding looks came together. Was that the vision from the beginning or how did they evolve?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Now we had another option that was, like, this full red suit for Ivan. It was this designer, Roma Uvarov, that we used a few times in the film. Mark introduced us to him, and he's an amazing designer. And Annie was originally in this, like, white lace 2 piece that is in the film, but just not in that sequence. And I was like, oh, that's gonna be such an iconic wedding look. And Sean was like, no. He was like, no, they don't know that this is gonna happen. You know, it's impromptu. It's gotta be things that are in their suitcase. And he was so right. So, yeah, we had to sort of reimagine that. And on the costume team, there was only three of us. It was me, Joanie Burton and Murray Rosenfield. Shout out to those ladies because they are just, like, so brilliant. And they're all over this film in pieces of inspiration and style. Murray, just like, she had her finger on the pulse with all these young independent artists. And she was like, you know, I've got this friend who makes one of one pieces. Let's see what he's got. And it was bhantha. And it was that jacket. We were like, this is so beautiful. Yeah. And then it just became putting this puzzle together of, like, how can we make this feel so impromptu? And so there's something so youthful and, like, so reckless and just, like, wild about it. I just felt so right once we tried it on. That's such a fun moment when you were like, let's just try this. And then it's like, there it is.

[Sean Baker]

Well, it came across for sure.

[Hilary Kerr]

Hey, everyone, it's Bobby Schessler, the shopping director at who?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

What?

[Hilary Kerr]

Where? You're currently listening to this inspiring conversation between our editor in chief Cat Collings and the chic costume designer Jocelyn Pierce who has worked on some of our favorite films. Seriously, she's worked on so many hits. Jocelyn uses a range of brands and designers to create the various character aesthetics in the films she works on. One place that is filled with a smattering of amazing fashion pieces is ebay. You can always find something you're looking for whether you're on the hunt for a vintage designer coat, bag, sweater or pair of shoes. When I'm searching for special pre loved luxury items, I look for the ebay authenticity Guarantee check mark on the listing. This means these items are physically inspected by experts before I receive them, which is super important when you're making a big purchase and you want to feel 100% confident about it. Inspired by Jocelyn's work in this latest project, I went searching for fashion forward pieces from brands like Louis Vuitton. I found a mini Speedy bag that's beyond cute. Larger bags are trending, but I also love mini bags especially for going out. I could picture styling this Louis Vuitton Speedy bag with baggy jeans and of the moment barn jacket and and black and white loafers. As I've mentioned before, I'm so into the bag charm craze and adorning bags like the Louis Vuitton style with fun pieces to bring even more personality. I searched for designer bag charms backed by ebay authenticity guarantee and spotted a fun Gucci tiger bag charm that would look so chic attached with other playful charms. I also continued on a bag exploration and found a Prada nylon bag that could easily be in everyday style. It has a more casual vibe to pair nicely with a cool denim or sporty look. Miu Miu is one of the key labels right now. Fashion people go crazy for the brand so I also searched ebay for Miu Miu bags and found a stunning crossbody style. It's super versatile and could go with various outfits, but I'd suggest styling it with a checkered blazer, trousers and slingback heels. Ebay is my go to place to find the those special pre loved items that you can't always find anywhere else. I'm all about finding covetable one off pieces and the fact that I can do that on ebay and ensure I'm getting real verified items makes the whole shopping experience even more satisfying and that's just awesome.

[Sean Baker]

Another style moment I want to call out is when Annie goes to the house for the first time. Her love interest Yvonne's house. She wears this electric blue Herve Lejer bandage dress. And for me, that was very interesting choice, and I want to hear all about it, because, you know, when you think of, like, clubwear of a certain era, too, Herve Leger was it, and their designs are so recognizable. So I'm curious about that choice for Annie, actually.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

That was also. Murray. It was her personal dress.

[Sean Baker]

Oh, wow. No way.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

That she brought in just like, you know, maybe this will work somewhere. And we had a bunch of options. We, like, auditioned a bunch of options for that moment, and it was another one of those, like, once it was on, there's no other choice. And I am so glad that that choice happened, because the colors, obviously, completely electric in that. It's like the cold colors of the mansion and the New York winter, and then those red sheets. It's like it just pops, and it's. I'm kind of jumping. But I was at a costume warehouse this morning because I'm in Atlanta on another film right now, and I was walking out of the building, and there was this Fellini quote on the wall that said, don't forget that costumes, like dreams, are symbolic communication. And I love that because I really do think that sometimes these choices that we make, it's like everybody knows it's right. Or everyone has that feeling like, yes, this is right. We don't know. There's no direct explanation. And then you see it later, and suddenly there's like a symbolism. It's like working from your subconscious, you know? And when that blue dress with the white walls and the red sheets. And I know that there's these themes of the American dream going on in the story. It's like, right there, like, this beautiful symbol that was sort of accidental, but it was so poetic, I thought. And then also, like, that designer, it's just like it's an iconic silhouette, and it's that design that you see and you know exactly what it is. And it's sort of like this aspirational signifier of status and.

[Sean Baker]

Right, right. It was a brilliant choice. I loved it. Another big costume moment for Annie was the fur coat that Yvonne buys her during their honeymoon phase. And I'm curious what this coat symbolizes. To me, you felt a real sense of pride in her wearing it and that it meant a lot to her.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah, we sort of, from a costume perspective, we split up the film into a few sections. There was the club, there was girlfriend week, and then there was wifey. And we designed them as different worlds. And there is something about a coat like that. It's a status symbol, and it was Just that butterfly transition of, like, I've gone from the girlfriend to the wife. And then for me, it's very moving in the script, you know, when we see this sort of home invasion sort of hostage situation that happens. It's such a vulnerable situation for a woman. You know, her home's been invaded, her husband's not there, and she's in a T shirt and boy shorts. It's completely vulnerable. And the fact that when she gets dressed, she decides to sort of put on these big boots and leather pants, you know, this fur coat. It just feels like she's a badass. Like, it's powerful. You know, it's like, this is who I am. And even though I'm in this horribly terrifying situation, I've got my power, right?

[Sean Baker]

And I'm asserting it. Absolutely. To return to the shoes, for one second, I saw a New York Times article that compared the sort of, like, dancer shoes to. For Annie. It was like her Cinderella slippers almost. And I was curious if that was in your mind at all when thinking about Shoes For Annie and the Cinderella story.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It's so funny. No, maybe that's like, this subconscious thing.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

I didn't think of a direct reference, but that was the thing that felt right.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Mikey wore her own shoes a few times, too. Like, there's that scene where she dances for Ivan in the mansion in the plaid skirt. Yeah. That was an outfit that Mikey had been practicing in. And we had another look, and Mikey was sort of like, I think it's this. It's that same thing. Like, she had sort of lived in it as Honora. It was sort of just like, no, this is it.

[Sean Baker]

Right.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

And it was amazing.

[Sean Baker]

I love that. I'm also curious. Even though Honora is having a big impact in getting widespread acclaim, it is, I believe, still categorically like an indie film at heart. And I'm curious if there are any restrictions where you had to get creative, maybe on an indie level budget, like, for sourcing, loaning, creating custom pieces. Like, I know you said a lot of the people wore their own or brought things they owned, which totally adds to the authenticity. And if there are any other interesting.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Nuggets in that respect, it was absolutely an indie film. And there was certainly budget restrictions. It's always interesting when what might be your biggest challenge ends up becoming your greatest strength. Because we were a small team, like I said, it was just three of us, and we had a nice budget, but it was not. We couldn't just throw money at everything.

[Sean Baker]

Sure.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

And what it does Is sort of forces you to get out into your community and it becomes like artists helping other artists. And there's something that feels so kind of truly independent about it. We worked with a number of independent artists or independent brands that were willing to loan us or willing to make us something special. And you get to know your local independent artists.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Also then there's bigger brands like Kate. Kate loaned us a bunch of stuff, actually. And it was really cool to have support from big fashion brands and people to sort of help you out. And it's cool when artists help other artists. Things become more special. From the start, we're sort of not wanting to use too much fast fashion for a lot of reasons, which probably.

[Sean Baker]

Could be tempting given the genre of a lot of the clothing. Right.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. You know, that being said, of course, we did shop at some, like, dancer stores, and we weren't like 100% sustainable or anything, but we did make a concerted effort to be as like, independent, archival, and New York based as possible. From the New York perspective, we would shop up and down Coney Island Avenue. Like we were really buying things in Brighton beach or really buying things from the dancer stores, and it kept it real. And then another aspect of the indie filmmaking that I really like is you're collaborating in real time. I've worked on bigger shows where there's a studio attached, and in order to get an approval for something to be on camera, you've got to send an email to, like 20 different people. And then it's a conversation. And then it becomes sort of too many cooks in the kitchen to make a creative decision. And it's certainly not the case on a Sean Baker movie. I just go talk to Sean Baker.

[Sean Baker]

Right.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

And then we talk to the actor. He'll talk to the actor. Or we're all standing together and the conversation takes different shape. Or creativity is happening in real time and it's so beautiful. I think it's kind of rare in the world that we live in that there are still filmmaking cultures like that.

[Sean Baker]

Right. With this agility and collaboration and sort of ease around creative decisions where they can really just kind of fly.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And it was cool too, because costumes and art shared an office. Like, I was just texting with the ladies on my team the other day, and I was like, I want to be back in that office right now eating baklava. Because, like, we would just, like, packed to the gills with art and props and costumes. It was just like madness. But it was like I could talk to the production designer at the Next desk. You know, show me this location or whatever it was. It's really so intimate and it's so truly collaborative and so cool to make a piece of art with your friends.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah, absolutely. And be in that kind of environment that allows for the highest level of partnership and collaboration. Very cool. You're painting a picture of it. I'm like, I want to go there. That sounds amazing.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It was crazy. And it was so much fun. I mean, you know, it was also hard work. But that energy is like. It is where the magic happens. You know, it's all the happy accidents. It's all the chaos creating, like a new solution or new idea.

[Sean Baker]

And I just love several times throughout this discussion, it's sort of in retrospect. You're like, oh, well, that did end up adding this layer of meaning. Or the costume choice. Like, that's just so cool where you create something and then you can even understand it in different ways or different levels than initially.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

I do find that, at least for myself. And I don't consider myself super technical as a costume designer. I feel like I design from my emotions.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

You know, my gut leads me and. Yeah. Oftentimes that ends up being this sort of like, that's your subconscious and. Yeah. Or your subconscious is talking to someone else's subconscious. But it's interesting too, when you see it later and you're like, oh, wow. Did not realize we were doing that.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah. That connection and. Yeah, that's so cool. We've covered a few looks, but I'm curious if there's any other costumes that you're particularly proud of from the film.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

You know, I loved Vegas. I don't know if I could pinpoint one, but we had a lot of fun in Vegas. Cause I remember thinking New York was so. Was so New York. And there was a lot of metallic, sort of like it was winter in New York, you know, it's darker. And we were like, let's just go nuts in Las Vegas and have like some more color. Or if it is metallic, like, make it pop more. And it was fun to take sort of bigger swings in Las Vegas and be like, let's party. Now we're sort of in a music video. You know, we're like, everybody's putting on their favorite party clothes and just having the time of their life.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah. The high energy, spirited montages, you know, in the pool and the casino. Like, really a high point for me through the movie, for sure.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

There's a dress that Annie wears in Vegas, and I think you only see it briefly but it's Fanny Schiavone. God, I hope I said that right. They were so generous and lent us this amazing dress. It's the one with the silver discs.

[Sean Baker]

So cool.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

That might be one of my favorite pieces. That was just like a home run on her, I thought.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah. And catches the light in a million ways. So cool. Are there any learnings from your work on Anora that you'll take with you into your next film?

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yes, I do feel quite changed from that film, and it's not just because it's doing well. I was lucky to have a team of creative women that are so inspiring to me and that I learned a lot from. And then one of my best friends, Annie Johnson, was head makeup artist on Anora.

[Sean Baker]

That's fun.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And her and I have made other movies together and have been through a lot. And I just remember one time she said to me, you know, I was probably, like, pulling my hair out over some decision, and she said something to me, like, your gut is always right. When you second guess yourself, you're wrong. And I was like, okay. And then, you know, Sean works in this beautiful way where, like I had mentioned before, it's fluid. And again, it's not fluid in the way, like, the characters are so deeply who the characters are, and the story is going to happen the way it's written, but within those boundaries, there is an openness. And with that openness comes, like, last minute changes. And I learned to roll with the punches in a way that I had never had to before. And I had learned to let go of some ideas I was holding onto really tight. And I learned to sort of go with my gut in these moments where you're like, nope, we're changing this. What are we doing? And it's sort of an invaluable lesson as an artist to be able to surrender to the process.

[Sean Baker]

One of my favorite words.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Surrender.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. What a relief.

[Sean Baker]

Yeah. Just to have fluidity and embrace that and being able to let intuition and emotion or gut feeling guide you. I would imagine that serves you well for authenticity and even more impact in.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Your costuming once you know. And I think this is a testament to Sean and to the actors that he casts. He's so relentlessly committed to his characters, and he's so in love with all of them. And once you know your characters that well, you can't go wrong, you're not going to make the wrong decision because you know who they are.

[Sean Baker]

Right. It's like the character will kind of tell you whether it's not literally tell you, but like when it clicks, it makes sense for that character because you know them so deeply and what makes sense for them.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah. And you become with your team, sort of like a brain share. Someone could pick up a random shirt and we'd all be able to say, oh, that's Yvonne. Because we all know we're all on this ride.

[Sean Baker]

Right? Right. All on the same page and in sync.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Yeah.

[Sean Baker]

Well, thank you so much for joining me, Jocelyn. That was so fun and enlightening to hear about your process and behind the scenes and some of the looks and congrats on the much deserved recognition.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

Thank you so much. And I do again, I hope everybody goes to see it in a theater like Sean intended it.

[Sean Baker]

Yes. I will tell you listeners out there that I rarely go to the theater and it was such a delight to see it on the big screen in a crowd. It was very special.

[Jocelyn Pierce]

It's a special kind of magic.

[Sean Baker]

Absolute.

[Cat Collings]

A huge thank you to costume designer Jocelyn Pierce. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you'd rate and review us. If you have guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a [e-mail] or you can find us on social at whowhat Where. See you next Wednesday on the who what Where Podcast. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammerhous and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Claire Schmidt. Our editor is Ko Takasugi Chernovin. Our audio engineers are are at Glen Canyon Audio and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.