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The Who What Wear Podcast
Too Much Costume Designer Arielle Cooper-Lethem on Maximalism, the Power of a Pioneer Nightgown, and London vs. NYC Style
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- [00:02]
Hilary Kerr
Thank you to ebay for sponsoring this episode. This is what you do. When you have high standards and fancy all the fancy things like an iconic Dior saddle bag or that diamond tennis bracelet, you go to ebay. There you'll find new loves that will never disappoint. Expertly authenticated and everything. Whether it's that vintage pearl necklace or brand new ruby earrings, a Prada crossbody bag to be besties with your other handb. Even an eternally classic watch like that Rolex Oyster or that Cartier tank. You know the one. And when you find it, ebay has their expert's eyes to make sure you're getting the real deal. That way you can be confident that the designer finds you came for the luxury wardrobe that you've always wanted. It's all real. In fact, it's verified authentic. So bring your high standards and never limit what you can find. Yeah, ebay the place for new, pre loved vintage and rare fashion. Ebay Things People Love welcome to the who what Wear? Podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors and tastemakers who are shaping the ever evolving world of fashion. I'm who what Wears Co founder and Chief Content Officer Hilary Kerr, and today on the podcast, our editorial director, Lauren Egertson is joined by costume designer Arielle Cooper Leatham. Arielle has worked in film and TV for nearly a decade, with credits on projects like It Comes at Night and Ocean's Eight. Her most recent work can be seen in Lena Dunham's hit new show Too Much, which debuted earlier this summer on Netflix. The show is led by hack star and comedian Megan Stalter, who plays Jess, an ad producer who moves from New York to London to flee a horrible breakup. Ariel tells us what it was like working with Dunham to curate Jess maximalist wardrobe of vintage nightgowns and lacy bloomers, as well as how Kurt Cobain inspired Jess love interest Felix's grungy androgynous Brit pop style. Plus, Ariel finds out in real time that fans loved Jess iconic frilled nightie so much that they drove sales through the roof at if Only if, the independent British brand behind the gown. It's all coming up on who, what Where.
- [02:53]
Lauren Egertson
First, I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Lauren Egerton. I'm who what Wears editorial director and I am a huge fan of the show Too Much. I binged it in like two days. It was so amazing. We're so excited to have you here today. This is such an honor. Everyone on our team has been discussing about the show. So this is one we're really excited about.
- [03:13]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Oh, that's so lovely. And I'm so excited to be here with you.
- [03:17]
Lauren Egertson
Amazing. Before we dive into all things too much in the show and your process, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background and how you got started in fashion and costume design, specifically in your career.
- [03:30]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I mean, I've always loved clothes, vintage clothes especially, and kind of knew I wanted to do something in fashion, styling or design. I started working retail at 14 and got an internship I the accessories closet at W magazine my freshman year at nyu. And I learned so much. It was amazing. But I quickly realized that fashion was not going to pay enough. And that was a very tough realization because I was like, what do I do now? And I kind of had this long period of working retail, working restaurants, feeling absolutely lost without clothing, clothes, you know, in a creative sense. And then I happened to have a friend's mom who's a production accountant, and she was working on, like, a Disney series. And she was like, there are a lot of other productions in this building, and you should come and you should work with me and you should talk to some of the other costume designers in the building. And I did, and I got a job dressing extras on this Cinemax series that was set in the 70s. And I just loved it. It was so much fun. And it just felt like I could move through a lot of space really quickly. And there's a kind of hierarchy to fashion and a very constant cycle to fashion that, I don't know, I guess, just didn't work. And, yeah, the second I found film, it was like home. It's like you just did a new summer camp. Like, every time you do a different project and there's a sort of, like, permanence to it. That's really nice.
- [05:06]
Lauren Egertson
Okay, so can you start from the beginning and tell us how you got connected to Lena Denham and the project and just how it all started for you?
- [05:14]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I met Lena through a mutual friend, and of course, I had watched Girls. I'm from New York, and I guess there was, like, a kind of thing around meeting her, because she was told to me by other people that she was the voice of my generation. Right. She never said that, but the world kind of said that. And we hung out a bunch of times, and she's just the most lovable person on the face of the planet. And I guess at some point her line was, oh, you're a New Yorker who moved to London for love, which I did. I married A Brit. And she was like, you get it? And I read the scripts and there was so much costume in the script, which was really fun. I think a lot of what you see on camera like just felt. Felt really clear from the moment I read these characters. Yeah, it just felt like a good fit from the beginning.
- [06:11]
Lauren Egertson
For those of you who haven't seen the show too much, stars Meg Stalter, who I love, but in the show she's an ad producer who just left a toxic long term relationship in New York and relocates to London to start all over. And it's kind of like a rom com, but very atypical. The costumes also really reflect that, I would say. So when you read the script for the first time, what kind of world did you picture for the main characters and maybe for Meg specifically? Like, what did you put on your mood boards?
- [06:39]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah, I mean, the thing that was really clear about Meg's character from the beginning was that she had to feel really unique and of her own space. And some of that was to match Felix, who's also like a one of a kind lovable freak. There was a color palette with Jess character that was very clear from the beginning, which is this kind of softness, pastel sweetness that could contrast this kind of rough around the edges London that she finds. And then the kind of references were all over the map. I think with contemporary mood boards. It's a bit funny sharing references because sometimes I pull up a mood board and I'd like show someone to lean and be like, oh my God, like that's my friend, you know, and like they're on the mood board. But there was definitely this one Betsey Johnson collection was all over her moods, which was like an 06 spring summer Betsey Johnson collection with a lot of ruffles. And there was some really nice kind of granny knits and big bows. And that was kind of the spirit, I think.
- [07:46]
Lauren Egertson
I love that. How involved was Lena in all of the costuming for the characters? How was collaborating with her on, you know, certain looks or visions?
- [07:55]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah, it was great. I mean, there was something like 125 principal cast. So these are people that have lines and then we have featured background. We have background and period costumes. We were dressing a lot of people and sometimes a character would be written into the show quite late in the process. And I text her and I'd be like, what's the vibe with this person? And then she'd just give me like three adjectives. Or like she'd be like, he's the kind of guy who is looking for this book at McNally Jackson, you know, I'm like, okay, got it. And that was really fun. I think there was a way in which we didn't need that many words, which was really good. Leena is such a fashion girly that you can kind of throw something weird at her and she's like, get it? I got it. Like, I see it. So it's really fun to work with someone who kind of is in that space already.
- [08:41]
Lauren Egertson
Oh, my gosh. I can imagine that's such a luxury to have because it is a whole very specific niche world. So that must be so nice.
- [08:48]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Totally. And it was so many different worlds, you know what I mean? It's like, there's the New York, there's the London, there's a kind of posh London, there's the pub London. We covered a lot of. So we had to be quick on our toes.
- [09:00]
Lauren Egertson
Speaking of that, I know you mentioned that you do have that personal connection because you moved to London for love, but in terms of the costuming for this, what would you say were kind of the key elements for you of things that represented New York style versus London style?
- [09:16]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I mean, I'm a New Yorker. New Yorkers have the most swag in the world, obviously. But I will say that I think that there's a kind of eccentricity and, like, individuality to London dressing. More of a high and low mix. I think there's an underground that's been a bit more preserved than it has in New York. I think in New York, you can really tell who someone is by looking at them. And it's not necessarily a uniform, but, like, we walk out of the house kind of ready to be out the whole day and, like, prepared to have to go to three different kinds of events. Right. And I think Londoners kind of lean into personal dressing a little bit more. It's like, I'm going to show up wearing this no matter where I am. And, yeah, with sourcing, definitely tried, where possible, to source American costume in the States and UK costume in the uk.
- [10:08]
Lauren Egertson
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm also curious for Jess, you kind of see her through a lot of different points in this period of life that's shown through the show. So we have, like, the flashbacks of her when she's with Zev, her moving to London, her obviously. Spoiler alert. Getting married, which I wanna talk about later.
- [10:25]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Spoiler alert.
- [10:26]
Lauren Egertson
I'm curious, like, what the thought was or the planning to kind of mark those transitions or those different periods that we're able to see as a viewer for Jess.
- [10:34]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yes. The time that we actually spend in this season of the series is weeks. Right. So lots happening, but she's not really changing in the present visually. And the flashbacks and tracking her relationship with Zev, it felt important to kind of show that very real thing that I think most women have experienced. You know, dressing when you're younger to kind of please other people and maybe feeling a little less sure of your own choices. But then also I think a lot of her clothing in the New York scenes wore vintage, which I also feel like is really real. Like you just have a little less money when you're young. But yeah, I think she kind of comes into a beautiful acceptance of her true personal style in the London modern day scenes.
- [11:27]
Lauren Egertson
Yeah, that's what I find so fascinating about costume design is you want it to look like a curation of someone's life lived and not just these amazing outfits one after another. It's just a reflection of their personality. So I know you've mentioned vintage and sourcing American fashion for the New York looks and all of that, but what were some of, like, your go tos for sourcing?
- [11:48]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Well, it takes a village. And I had a fabulous team of buyers and Meg brought some brands to the table that we collaborated with, fashion brand company who's out of California. It was a brand that she had a relationship with and like, all their stuff is just so fun and perfect. Definitely wanted her to feel collected a bit too and not like she just bought everything yesterday. And so a lot of like the nightgowns you see her in, like in episode three, for example, are vintage. There was this idea of, oh, like maybe this is something that her mother had and her grandmother kept in the attic. And that was also especially true in Felix's wardrobe. And I think that's how even though they're both on such polar opposite sides of the aura spectrum, they kind of work together because they have this spirit that's the same of just like, what's that? Oh, I love it. Okay, it's mine. And they're both convincing.
- [12:49]
Lauren Egertson
They're the kinds of friends you would have in your life where you're just like, you don't even want to ask where they got it because it probably has some crazy story and, you know, you could never get it. And it just like looks perfect on them.
- [12:59]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I also love to, like, think of Jess as a girl who's following trends. Like, she's looking at her explore plea, she's looking at Etsy. She's interested in what's new and what's coming out. But then she has her own way of putting that all together.
- [13:13]
Lauren Egertson
Yeah, totally. I know you mentioned the nightgowns and I have to share that, like, our team was freaking out about them. And we also saw this mentioned in Harper's Bazaar. There was this article that kind of covered, which I'm sure you know about that one brand, if only if the nightgown that she wears in one of the episodes.
- [13:31]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah, she wears a lot of their gowns.
- [13:33]
Lauren Egertson
They saw crazy sales. I think it was like 640% in a single weekend after one of the episodes dropped.
- [13:39]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
What?
- [13:40]
Lauren Egertson
And then another report from Net a Porter came out that searches for cotton night dresses increased by 200% because of the show in the last month. Well, we're saying it's because of the show.
- [13:50]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I haven't seen any of these articles. That's amazing.
- [13:53]
Lauren Egertson
Oh, my gosh. We'll send them to you. It's amazing. Where did that come from? Specifically because it's so perfect for Jess, but also unique to someone her age. Kind of having this really cool collection of frilly, vintage, inspired sleepwear.
- [14:06]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
You know, when she sets herself on fire in like a pioneer nightgown. That was written into the script. So I guess that was a starting point of like, okay, she's the kind of girl who has a pioneer nightgown also. I just kind of loved like leaning into this whole Gray Gardens thing. Like, she's really close to her grandma, she's really close to her mom. She's someone who has a connection to her family and a connection to history and is a bit sentimental. And I just feel like the nightgown is kind of a great way to do that. And then her wearing the nightgowns indoors and outdoors to me was just an easy way to say like, she's her own gal. She's doing what she wants to do.
- [14:43]
Lauren Egertson
She also has such a connection to, like the period pieces. I know that was a big theme that their family loves watching those, like, period romance pieces. So I liked that tie in too. It's like her little way of living that in her own day to day as much as she can. So one of the themes in the show is obviously this idea that it's easy to feel like too much when you're with the wrong person, but when you're with the right person, it's never too much. And I know we've talked a little bit about the flashbacks to Jess with Zev, but that was definitely a theme that I think the viewers sense from the show that, like, her music taste can be too much. The way she dresses, the things she talks about. There's like, that one specific scene where she's wearing that white suit sailor dress, and Zev just says that the way that she dresses is like, as a fuck you to people sometimes. And that's a really pivotal moment. Yeah, Very heartbreaking moment to watch. I'm curious how that look came about for that moment.
- [15:38]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
The dress that she meets Felix in that Zev poo poos was meant to feel adjacent to her pioneer nightgowns, like, kind of in that nightgowny space. So that was kind of the jumping off point for that. It's like, what's a dress that isn't a nightgown? But that kind of has that same feeling. And it's like, how do we recognize these patterns in her life, Some good, some bad, but then also, how do we kind of recognize the growth? With 10 episodes, the starting point was the writing and foundry moves do so much cool stuff. We use some of their shoes too. On Emily Ratajkowski. I've gotten so many questions about that dress because the sailor collar is detachable.
- [16:20]
Lauren Egertson
Ooh, I love that.
- [16:21]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
And I'm not sure that they sell the sailor collar anymore. They have the. I think it's called the Amalia, but I'm like, you guys need to restock that color right away.
- [16:30]
Lauren Egertson
No, it's so cute. And it was perfect for the scene. As heartbreaking as it was, I feel like it was just such a perfect Jess look.
- [16:37]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
She's so pretty. She shouldn't let Zev talk to her like that.
- [16:41]
Lauren Egertson
Ugh, I hated him. He really, like, made me see red.
- [16:45]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
We've all had a Zev that's like, why episode five, I think, is just so heartbreaking. Cause you're like, oh, I've been there. Like, why did any of us tolerate that? We were so cute. We looked so, so good, and we were hotter than ever.
- [16:59]
Lauren Egertson
Yes. And you want to, like, scream at her, like, why is your instinct to not just get out? But we've all been there too, where you have to just. It's your own path and your own timing to realize, like, that is not. Not for me.
- [17:10]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
You got to learn the hard way.
- [17:12]
Lauren Egertson
Yes.
- [17:15]
Eliza Huber
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- [20:44]
Lauren Egertson
So to transition to Felix because he is the right person and he's amazing, but very complex. I want to hear from you about his wardrobe. I know you've kind of touched on it a little bit and the similarities with Jess's, but, I mean, as an onlooker, I just love his kind of, like, grungy and punk vibe. But he's not afraid to be a little androgynous and has some femininity in there with, like, florals, and he loves painting his nails, and he will have, like, a random kimono on, and he just is very eclectic. But I'm curious, like, from your perspective, what it is you love about Felix's wardrobe and your experience curating it.
- [21:16]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
We had a lot of fun with Felix's wardrobe. Will Sharpe is amazing and gets really interested in clothes. This process of, like, getting into character. And I think we agreed from the beginning that he should have a very small closet. He's not going to the store to buy clothes. Like, the idea of Felix in a store shopping is, like, so wrong. So our rules were that he had to have found it somewhere or have had it for long enough that his parents bought it for him. You know what I mean? Like, maybe there was a funeral or something, and his mom was like, okay, this is getting insane. We're going to get you a proper suit, you know? And that's how he got his suit. Or a girl left a pair of sunglasses in his car. That's how he got his glasses. Like, the leather coat he wears all the time. We imagine his dad put on some weight. It's been sitting in the attic forever. And, like, that's how he got the coat. And even though he had so little wardrobe, it was fun. And I think there managed to be, like, surprises. Even though he was wearing the same pair of sweatpants basically every episode, there.
- [22:26]
Lauren Egertson
Was always something about him that felt just new and flashy. And it's in the Felix kind of a way where you're like, whoa, what, like, trunk did you pull that out of? Or what, like, corner in your closet or, you know.
- [22:37]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah. Will was really excited about the whole musician thing. I think we really didn't want it to feel lame, you know what I mean? Like a guy with a guitar. He had a ton of 90s Brit pop references, you know, Kurt Cobain was obviously a big reference. And it's like, why can't I put on a blouse? Why can't I have my girlfriend put on some lipstick for me? And that was the spiritual energy there.
- [23:04]
Lauren Egertson
I feel like it was also really fun to see this other side of Felix when we get introduced to all of his exes in episode eight called One Wedding and A Sex Pest.
- [23:15]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah. So many exes.
- [23:16]
Lauren Egertson
Oh, my gosh, so many. And they're all so different. I loved being able to see their outfits. I mean, I spotted, like, a Simone Rocha look right away. I feel like it was just all over the map. Can you talk to me a little bit? Just about curating those looks for that moment that we're getting to see all of them for the first time.
- [23:35]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
That episode was kind of a standalone. You know, it was directed by Janic, so. Bravo, who plays Kim, but also is a wonderful director. And I think it was kind of meant to feel in its own space a little bit. I mean, I think it's funny because if you haven't spent any time in England, like, I'd imagine it could probably feel completely over the top. I think for people who have actually spent time here, it's like a certain posh culture. And you have your, like, cool posh. You have your stuffy posh. And at the right kind of wedding, you get all these people, like, in the same room. And the main thing was, how do we make this big world of characters, but also still somehow make Jess feel, like, so out of place? Even though you have Linnea Adjoa Boa's character wearing, like, a surrealist Mariam Kihani headpiece. And, like, you have the trans cousin performing the sex song. And even despite all of that, like, Jess character still somehow feels the one that's really out of place.
- [24:41]
Lauren Egertson
Yeah. With, like, her teal. It's, like, lame or. I don't know, it's just metallicy teal halter minis it is very lame. Okay.
- [24:50]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
You could use so many words. It's got velvet trim, there's wire in the ruffles. Of course, it's got many things going on. We made that dress wanting to be able to place her anywhere in the crowd at all times.
- [25:04]
Lauren Egertson
You definitely can. You cannot miss her. And then the scene of her crawling out the window, I'm like, of course. She's wearing this, like, tiny ruffledret. Like, the whole thing was perfect.
- [25:12]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah. I especially like the big bow out the back of her coat. Drama.
- [25:16]
Lauren Egertson
Yes. I also want to talk about Emily Ratajowski. Her whole vibe is also very unique to every other character on the show. Since she plays Wendy, the new fiance of Zev, and she's this knitting influencer, she's wearing all of her own creations. How did this character become a knitting influencer? Do you have any, like, background story that you can share there? And what were some of the, like, key pieces that you felt were really important on her? Consistently throughout?
- [25:43]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah. The character definitely did evolve a bit from the first scripts that I read. And I think some of that was to do with the fact that Emily was really excited about being in a space that felt really different from who she is in her real life. She kind of went from a lawyer to a knitwear influencer. So that was an interesting change. And, yeah, it was like, okay, she's like an E girl. She's, like, bit edgier. I guess there's this thing of, like, can we hate her? Can't we hate her? You know, there's a line. Kim has a line where it's like, no, you can definitely hate her. So, yeah, I think, like, her having a bit of craft and feeling like she was more than just a girl selling her own line of cosmetics or something, but also, like, had this talent made her a little more lovable, maybe. We actually thought we were going to make her knitwear ourselves because we're like, okay, we really need to, like, feel a consistent hand in this. And then we found this amazing knitwear designer, Sarah Beasley. Her company's called Sulk Knitwear, and she's based in the UK and makes everything herself. So we used a lot of her pieces, and then some of the pieces, I think, were like, Mariam Nasir Zadeh. You know, we incorporated other knits, but the heart of the feel of her knit was Sulk. I think it worked out really well. We knew it kind of wanted to be, like, a lot of angoras and a bit fuzzy and a bit neon, as you can See, their apartment is also super doused in neon. It was really fun putting her together because I think she's a character that pulls from a lot of spaces.
- [27:26]
Lauren Egertson
Definitely. She's like the girl that you want to hate, but then you get to know her, which obviously happens in the end, and you're like, oh, God damn it. You're actually cool. You're kidding me. You knit all your own clothes? Like, that's so annoying. But then you're like, actually, that's the coolest thing ever. And I could never do that. And I'm jealous because I want to be that cool.
- [27:43]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Exactly.
- [27:44]
Lauren Egertson
So I loved it. I also really want to talk about Astrid, Jess's dog. Can you talk to us about their coordinating looks sometimes? Did you have to get those outfits custom made? Like, what was her story? She's so cute and weird. The weirdest dog ever in the best way.
- [27:58]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
We love Astrid. Lina has a hairless dog. She's 2, actually, and her dog Ingrid was meant to play Astrid and couldn't manage the demand of long days on set. So then they found Mia and Muppet, brother and sister, and Mia was playing Astrid, and Muppet would stand in, and we needed to hide their private parts so that we couldn't see that sometimes it was a girl dog and sometimes it was a boy dog. So that was part of the necessity of the costumes. But Lena does have a whole drawer of clothes for her dogs, and I looked through that collection of dog clothes that she has, and that was a starting point. So, yeah, we designed a bunch of costumes for her that were kind of meant to, like, match and work with Jess's closet. My favorite probably being this leopard print coat that we made for her, which she did not get to wear enough.
- [29:04]
Lauren Egertson
Oh, my gosh.
- [29:05]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yeah, it's like a leopard coat, and then it's got, like, a shaggy white neck, and it's adorable. We made a bunch of nightgowns for her, and then some of the things we just kind of shopped using Ingrid's closet as a kind of mood board.
- [29:21]
Lauren Egertson
Okay, the last full specific look I really have to talk about again, Spoiler alert. But Jess gets married in the end, and I just want to know, like, did her wedding look go through changes or different rounds, or was that another look that was kind of written into the script?
- [29:36]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Yes, it was written into the script. She has the Nixon T shirt, which has a big story arc in the show. It starts by being Jess mother's shirt, and we even see it on her as a little girl. She gets the Shirt back after Zeb having it for a long time. And so in the script, it's the shirt and a kind of tutu skirt. Meg Salter had a relationship with a designer called Veronica Schaeffer, who's based out of Chicago and does amazing stuff. So we worked with Veronica Schaeffer to make a skirt that felt tutu, which Veronica had kind of already been doing, like tutu bridal. And she gave us the beautiful boville. And yeah, it's one of my favorites scenes in the show. Too brief. There were so many good wedding looks. And it's so frustrating because it's like this little moment. I was like, no, let's stay here for longer.
- [30:35]
Lauren Egertson
Yeah, I know. I wish she was one of those brides that changed into like an after party look and then her after after party look. And I just wanted to see all versions of Jess getting married. It was so cool. Okay, this is our last question, but to our knowledge, Too Much hasn't been officially renewed yet for a season two. But if it does come back, have you started brainstorming or envisioning any sort of, like, progressive style journey for Jess over the next couple of seasons for her?
- [31:04]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
I really hope it comes back for a second series. Yeah. The window of time that we see her in the present day in the first series is so crazy short. I think it'd be really fun to kind of see her grow into her relationship with Felix and settle into London. If she stays there, who knows? You can feel that she's really learned a lot about herself through the relationship and the kind of love that she's getting. I think it'd be really fun to see her with a bit of a time lapse and she's kind of like rebounding from the whole Zev trauma. So maybe she's like gone really far in one direction and then maybe she settles back into some sort of space that's between all of that or new and yeah, I think it'd be really fun to see.
- [31:51]
Lauren Egertson
Oh, my gosh. For sure. I'm crossing my fingers. I think seeing her evolve and just learning more about her character and all the characters would be the dream. So I hope it happens.
- [32:02]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Same.
- [32:02]
Lauren Egertson
I'm so grateful that you came on today and were able to chat with me. You are so talented and it was just such an honor being able to chat with you today. So thank you.
- [32:11]
Arielle Cooper Leatham
Thank you so much, Lauren. It was really nice to talk to you.
- [32:20]
Hilary Kerr
A huge thank you to costume designer Arielle Cooper Letham. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you'd rate and review us. If you have any guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a line atpodcastwhowhatwhere.com or you can find us on social at whowhatwere. See you next Wednesday on the who what Where Podcast. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto, our editor is Ko Takasugi Chernovin. Our audio engineers are at Glen Canyon Audio, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.