← The Why Files: Operation Podcast
The Why Files: Operation Podcast
The Basement: John B. Alexander | Roswell, MJ-12, Skinwalker: The Colonel Who Was There
03:33:50
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- [00:00]
Host 1
Today we're sitting down with Colonel John Alexander. He commanded Green berets in Vietnam, ran advanced weapons concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered the military's non lethal weapons program. He also threw spoon bending parties for army generals, sponsored a scientist whose lab levitated scrap metal, and was the first investigator to spend a night on Skinwalker Ranch. And none of it was a hobby.
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Host 2
It was work.
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Colonel John Alexander
A night at Skinwalker Ranch. You couldn't get me to spend a lunch there.
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Host 1
That place has demons that make the crab cat look cuddly. Today we're. Today we're covering the army's psychic warfare years. The voodoo fire ceremony he filmed in West Africa, and why a man with a file full of things that can't happen isn't worried about dying. And at one point, he mentions that he could beat a polygraph, but he couldn't fool his own white blood cells. That one's gonna bug me for a while.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, they can never polygraph me.
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Host 1
No pulse points, no fingers, no sweat glands.
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Colonel John Alexander
I'm untestable, baby.
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Host 1
You confess to things nobody asked about.
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Colonel John Alexander
Allegedly.
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Host 1
Once we wrap up, I'll pop back in and break down our conversation. Let's go down to the basement.
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Host 2
Colonel John Alexander. Welcome to the basement.
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Colonel John Alexander
Great to be here, I think. I didn't do it. I wasn't there. I don't know anything about it.
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Host 2
We're gonna have fun.
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Host 1
I want to start somewhere.
- [01:23]
Host 2
No one does. You're in a village in West Africa in the middle of a voodoo ceremony. Cameras are rolling. And the shaman, what, takes a fire to his face. What happened?
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Colonel John Alexander
Oh, no, it's much more than that. This was. We were attending a voodoo ceremony. And this particular case, the shaman himself came out. Now, he picks up a flaming torch and puts it in his mouth. And, you know, now what's really interesting was when it was my camera, by the way, that was rolling and at distance, like, we're sitting right now. This is not a long ways away. And yes, it's hot. I mean, there's definitely heat. Got long ching whiskers that don't singe. Now, this also went on, and they brought out two young boys, probably about 10 or so. And the shaman goes this and passing the power and say, well, they can't, you know, they haven't got the full range yet, but they would stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat the fire. Yeah, it defies everything, you know, about thermodynamics. I also. They say, well, they have some magical, you know, asbestos substance or something. Got to understand, these are People who look up to dirt and poverty, Right. Yeah. That they have some exotic materials or something. They did have a long history as to how that came about, but it. Yeah, just defies the rules. There's no doubt about that.
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Host 2
What was the ceremony for their lighting fire?
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Colonel John Alexander
Us? No, this was the. We were with a small group, and they were doing it for us. But this is something they do all the time.
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Host 2
Only the shaman can do that. Or what I'm getting at is, can we all learn that power?
- [03:19]
Colonel John Alexander
That is a question that's hard to say. There's obviously a period of training and introduction. Like I said with the boys, he was passing the power and said, they've only got so much. We saw a number of them do this. The backstory is that this goes back to the days of slavery. And these were people that. We were in Benin at the time, or we were in both Togo and Benin, but in that area in West Africa. And, you know, most of the slaves were actually captured by Africans in Nazi. And one of the things that had happened is that they had been captured. Most of the people were put in one of these corrals, which was then set on fire and burned alive. After that, there were a few survivors who had been outside and said they made a deal with the fire gods, that if they would honor them in return for protection. Now we're in an area where, if you believe the physical evidence we saw is they definitely could do these things. Might mention that I had taken this to a local magician and guys who deal with fire and say, okay, how do you do this? And the answer was, you don't. He had showed me the tricks of people, how they do fire things on stage and that. And part of it, frankly, is just, how much pain can you stand? How far do you go before it kicks in?
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Host 2
But the beards doesn't singe. That doesn't.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's why I say the laws of thermodynamics should be if you put so much on the skin, you'll burn.
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Host 2
Right.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. It didn't happen.
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Host 2
Were you there on official capacity or just curiosity?
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Colonel John Alexander
No, no, no. This was personal. And after I had retired the second time. But I want to point out one thing misconception about voodoo itself. Voodoo, in my view, is not just a religion. It is an entire way of life. I mean, this is. You know, people incorporate this. Met the guy there who. His job literally was to dream. And he was a shaman. He had been trained, and he would dream at night and come out and tell the village, you know, here's what's going to happen. Here's what you should do. A long training process that went into that. He did say he had adopted one acolyte. Don't know who he is, and the villagers didn't know, but was training them to succeed him. But if you travel again throughout southern Benin and Togo and probably into Ghana, every place you go, you see the trees and there's a white thing on it or a white flag that means the doctor is in. And we were there. Actually, we happened to hit it on the voodoo New Year's Day when we had massive numbers of voodoo folks in. And, yeah, some of the things we saw, I guess one of the ones that I don't know if you've seen this or not. Again, we arrived at a Buddha ceremony that particular day out of a small village, and there were several people entranced with this one woman who was just totally out of it. And they take gunpowder and put it in her hand and it blows up. And totally unfazed. And how you do that without burning, but definitely happening.
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Host 2
Did you go there trying to debunk it or understand it?
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, we tried. Essentially, I kept track of the guide that was in there. Remember when Ebola broke out? And interestingly, those areas did not have a single case of Ebola, although it was around them. And his quote was, voodoo will protect us. Now, that's taking a big leap of faith, if you will. But again, the evidence was it didn't happen. So you don't know. Did it just not hit that particular area? And of course, we have a new Ebola outbreak now that's occurring.
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Host 2
Did that. That group, that tribe, have long life expectancies?
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Colonel John Alexander
I don't know.
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Host 2
I'm curious about that stuff. All right, we have to do a little bit of the biography. You gave your first UFO talk in 1947 on the school radio in fifth grade. That was the summer flying saucer was coined.
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Colonel John Alexander
Right.
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Host 2
Did you give your talk before. Before Kenneth Arnold went public?
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Colonel John Alexander
No, no, no. What had happened is there were a few newspaper articles. This was in La Crosse, Wisconsin, small town. And it just caught my attention as it was just becoming popular at the time. And I went to a very unique grade school. We were part of what's now the University of Wisconsin system. Then was a teachers college. And they needed guinea pigs. So that was us. And we had access to the facilities of the college and they would allow students to talk on anything they wanted. In my talk that particular day was on UFOs a couple of years back.
- [09:11]
Host 1
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- [09:30]
Host 2
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- [09:33]
Host 1
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Host 2
So you've been on the case for 79 years? Yeah, close. More than that?
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, yeah. Since. Since then. Yes. I was 10 at the time. Yeah.
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Host 2
Well, speaking of 47. That's Roswell's year. Do you have. I think you have. You have. We're going to get some controversial opinions today from you, which is fun.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
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Host 2
So what about Roswell? Was that. I never heard you say aliens really? In any of your talks.
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Colonel John Alexander
What's the question?
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Host 2
Roswell. Was that a crash retrieval or is that a weather balloon?
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Colonel John Alexander
No, I think the answer to both is probably no, but. And this I can argue. Roswell. Either way. One of the problems in studying you get in however deep you. The data never all fit into neat pockets. But I can make a strong case a. That an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt. Remember, Roswell did not really become a thing until much, much later.
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Host 2
Bill Moore's book, maybe in 1980.
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Colonel John Alexander
Stan Friedman and those kinds. So for decades. So it wasn't like it was in the newspaper, except in the Roswell newspaper course. And that. Don't think there's any doubt that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt that the government came in pretty heavy handed. But what people forget now is the time frame. I mean we're talking beginning of the Cold War. We had just come out of. And I actually remember part of World War II, not as a participant, but you know, remember some of the things going on. So you have to remember the public tenure at the time. And this would have scared the crap out of everybody, you know. And it, it also the straight story and with a lot of documentation to it was remember what's going on with time. At that time the US is the only atomic as opposed to nuclear power in the world. And we knew the Soviets were working on it. So the big question was when? Yeah, if they pop, you know, it changes the dynamics quite a bit. And so that they had very high altitude sensor systems. Now they later went to seismic systems which were better. But yeah, that they would have had and it would have been super super sensitive. And very few people. And I do know, I think it was Bill Byrne, one of the TV programs that they had. He came in and they laid out some material and there were people, you know, Jesse, Marcel and others, and there was another sergeant who was there and they brought them in and said do you see the same material here that was laid out thin films and all that? And the answer is yes. And he pointed to one. And the point was that did exist at the time. It had most of the properties metal with a memory and flame retardant and all of that. Yeah. Later told about, you know, you talk about the long train of debris and what I was told by very knowledgeable sources was that yes, what he had these things were cut to a specific angle looking for certain frequencies. Again we're looking for as nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that kind of material would have been there. I can. I Talked to Bruce McAvee, you probably know about this at the time. And he goes, well, if that's true, wouldn't they have found a screw or something?
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Host 2
Yeah,
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Colonel John Alexander
so don't know. But again it. The case, you know, just dwindled immediately. It did not hit the other cases that came along. Flights over Washington and all that many more UFO sightings came along. But Roswell is conundrum to me.
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Host 2
Is it?
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
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Host 2
I think Marcel said because he took the material home overnight. Didn't he say that it was writing on some of that stuff?
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Colonel John Alexander
He did bring it home. And I thought Jesse Jr also was really good guy. And I heard him talk several times. He only said what he knew. He was one of these few people that are not extrapolating into bigger nut. And he said, my experience is 15 minutes. Dad brought it home, here's what we saw. Then they took it off. Yeah. There are others who have different stories on it. And of course, you get into the bodies and all of that. Hard to say.
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Host 2
We'll get into some more of that later. But I can't help myself. When you were digging around with clearance, did you look into Roswell?
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Colonel John Alexander
The short answer would be no, because there wasn't much to, quote, look into. Very aware of it. Aware of all of the material. I never ran across anything in any of the files that referenced it or anything like that.
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Host 2
Was 47 the year that the Air Force was spun out of the Army.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yes.
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Host 2
Yes. Okay. That's convenient.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, that gets critical, as a matter of fact, when you get into the. Like the twining memo.
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Host 2
Yes.
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Colonel John Alexander
And that. Which is key. In fact, the memo was to the Army Air Force because these things were happening. You may want to talk about MJ12 and that these are literally being formed at that time.
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Host 2
Yeah, I mean, I have a. My notes here on things to go through in order, but it's not going to work. My notes are not going to work because I have. Because you bring. Now you brought up mj12. I can't help get your thoughts on that. And what about Richard Doty from. From osi? I'm wondering how you feel about him,
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Colonel John Alexander
because that we have met probably. Well, when we met, he was with New Mexico State Police. He told us a story that could not possibly be true.
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Host 2
Okay.
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Colonel John Alexander
In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I was there with Scott and Hal put off, and they were guessing who I was and guessed wrong and thought I was from dia. And I was actually now retired at Los Alamos. And he told me this very fanciful story about a building I had been in that week. I'm saying, no, not the way it's built. And also a lot of the stories that come up again, we're now talking early 90s critical here, the timing, because Cold War Soviet Union has just fell. And with that Atlante and a lot of other places, of course, we went into the peace dividend probably way too early. But the issue was that a lot of places that were, quote, behind the fence no longer, you know, had guards at the gate. The gate fences were still up, but people would come and go and whatnot. So, no, I've just. I guess I just in the last week saw a preposterous thing, you know, come from SF background. And the claim was that Delta Force were specifically trained and equipped in this and Sorry I'm still associated with that field.
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Host 2
Sure.
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Colonel John Alexander
Where you go into it. Yeah. Not. Not happening.
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Host 2
So mj12 the documents I go back and forth also because I don't like the Bill Moore Jamie Chandere part of that story. How they found them in the mail. They found them in the archives. But the documents are still compelling. So where do you stand on MJ12?
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Colonel John Alexander
Hey, it was real.
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Host 2
Okay.
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Colonel John Alexander
That list is probably real. And probably had absolutely nothing to do with UFOs.
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Host 2
Wow. So what would be the purpose of that? Just counterintelligence.
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Colonel John Alexander
It was something called COG Continuity of government. Oh of course. Which was super. That is one of the few things that I had asked fellow blind. So what about. And he says we're not discussing that. So there were times and this is now in the 80s but the creation of continuity of government. And now this became public knowledge. You know when Greenbrier they found out the Greenbrier place had been at a big underground facility. Yeah. The hotel is where you whisk the government to. In case of. And it was to prevent nuclear decapitation and continue with a continuity was a continuation of the government would exist and have that.
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Host 2
If people don't know there's like a mini congressional hall in there.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, it's as I understand there may be pieces of this still classified as what not because you are still concerned about what happens to the government. And under catastrophic circumstances this should always be a concern. Yeah, but if you look at that list. Remember what Stan talked about this too and he was saying like Menzel for instance who was very anti UFO guy and that that had to. That he was reading a double life. According to Stanton,
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Host 2
he wasn't he. No, no.
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Host 1
I thought he had clearance.
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Host 2
He was an asset.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, but if you look at it from a position of something for cog that list of people makes total sense. And you don't have to do backflips on any of them.
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Host 2
Nope.
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Colonel John Alexander
I mean you have nuclear. There are people who understood nuclear weapons. And I mean this gets terribly complex as to what could be done. The amount of damage that was done. Blast radiation, radiation continuance, etc. Yeah, that group is the one. Exactly. And Truman is the one who put it in place. And supposedly not taking notes and that. But that explanation fits without any.
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Host 2
It does, it does. So where. So James Forrestal. What about that conspiracy? Did he.
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Colonel John Alexander
Which one?
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Host 2
I mean his death
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Colonel John Alexander
some things he was drugged or something. You know it did fall to his death and that But I have a hard time making a leap therefore, you know, some nefarious group assassinated him or something.
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Host 2
Well that's why I like your that really that's your. Your whole thesis is you've got all these great, some would say wild claims but you're also a skeptic. I think.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well you know my current thinking is a little different than it was. And how so? Well that's primarily because some of the people who come forward who are personal friends and who are very highly and located well placed etc this is when you get into the quote the legacy program per se that varies considerably from my firsthand experience. Yeah, I mean and some I just end up with. Can't really tell. I think what you had Jeremy for instance, come forward. I mean that's their whole thing is in. But the question I think is are you tracking down what are UFOs or UAPs or whatever or is your whole thing on. I want to crack the government.
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Host 2
Yeah. I mean what does George think about it? I think he cares more about government transparency than.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, yeah. Well I was going to get into this but in my view the. I think the entire approach is wrong now. And yes the government does have data but I don't think this fits very well with governments per se. I think that a better model for how to approach would be considered the human genome where you had multiple countries. The major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer because it's ubiquitous, it is many different forms, it morphs, it changes and all that. The government has a role to play in this but it is not the role that you have many people, different government. And the problem that I see at the moment, what the government brings to the table of course at the moment are really good sensor systems and I can make a strong case for why some of that should be classified because you don't want to tell people what are your operating parameters, what you can see, what you can't see and measure etc. So that I can say on the top end you won't have it. Having said that this is a global phenomena and in my view the government can't put it back in. Put the genie back in the bottle is happening all over and now with the, you know, we have what rings on every door and cell phones and this and the data is just overwhelming.
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Host 2
I mean police body cameras, you're seeing stuff. Yeah, yeah. Some of this is on my list but since we're here anyway and actually let's. Yeah, let's stay. Let's stay on this for a second because I. You always bring up Slamanski, but I. But no Henry Slamansky.
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Colonel John Alexander
Slamansky, yeah. You want to go in the martial arts area?
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Host 2
Well, what I found fascinating about him was his mos.
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Colonel John Alexander
He hung the Japanese war criminals.
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Host 2
He was a hangman. Yeah, it was that. Is that still in the manual that
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Colonel John Alexander
I was Again, you've got to look at the time now when I work for Slamanski, you gotta remember I was a brand new E5 at the time. I had gone to Ranger school and because that was the only way you were going to get promoted, you're coming out of Korea, so promotions just not happening. But if you went to Ranger school, you automatically got promoted to E5. And I went back and then I went to the Fort Campbell Jump School as an instructor. A 20 year old black cat going and saying, okay son, son, these kids are older than I am certainly. And the ground training NCO was Henry Slamansky and he was, well, his big thing. He had lived in Japan for a long period of time as well as hanging a few of the criminals and had become a major figure kind of. He was commissioner I think for the Western hemisphere was the title. And the big thing was that he had entered. He had been training, but the story was that he had entered a major contest. And this was back in the day still full contact and all of that. And of course a strong foreigner being in there was not favorable and ended up I think defeating 110 or 111 Japanese and really gaining their respect at the time.
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Host 2
What was his system that he trained in?
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Colonel John Alexander
I. I'd have to look it up.
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Host 2
I was just curious.
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Colonel John Alexander
Probably have. Have it in there, but.
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Host 2
Oh, they had to hate him.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, yes, and I know one, of course one of the things like I say respect is when he whipped their ass, you know, and got, I mean they expected him just to be eliminated almost immediately in the thing and it didn't happen. And ended up like I say, more than 100 bouts in a period of two days to get up there.
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Host 2
So it's 100 fights in two days.
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Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, it was, I believe it was a two day elimination approach.
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Host 2
Wow. Okay, so Special Forces.
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Colonel John Alexander
I want to know his final job. Not his final job. He became a chaplain.
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Host 2
That's right. I heard you mention that in hospital.
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Colonel John Alexander
Hospital chaplain. Kind of a big shift has happened with many of us.
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Host 2
It is. But surrounded by death on both sides. What an interesting character. He would be a good subject for a biography that man. Or a movie. At camp in Cambodia, you had a Buddhist temple inside the wire.
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Colonel John Alexander
This is Vietnam.
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Host 2
That was Vietnam. Why did you have a Buddhist temple in there? And what did you and the monks talk about?
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Colonel John Alexander
Hey, we didn't talk much. Although my time frame Again, this is 68. Height of the. I was there for the Tet offensive and, and that sort of thing. The. The camp had been established and it was a small mountain, small hill actually 50 some feet up. And by the way, this is in the delta. There was actually this area called seven mountains in the delta. Most of deltas, you know, was perfectly flat and wet and. And they had these big mountains where major fighting was going on. And yeah, we. Why the temple was. It was there when. When I arrived. One of the main things. So my main interpreter there, we called him Mike, had actually been a monk for six years, so did have some. You know, that was a personal discussion. However, on the top of this little hill, I'm saying there was a small enclosure and we'd always have somebody on top and people were located in different places in case you got hit. You didn't want to lose everything at once. And I can remember because we usually stay up pretty late on that and going to sleep and waking up being surrounded by monks chanting.
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Host 2
Kind of
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Colonel John Alexander
an interesting awakening, I bet.
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Host 2
Did you talk to them about consciousness and near death experiences, anything like that?
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Colonel John Alexander
Oh, no, no, no. NDEs don't even come. Remember, this is 68. Raymond and Elizabeth don't come into the field until mid-70s.
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Host 2
Right.
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Colonel John Alexander
The first discussion.
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Host 2
But before I think Moody coined the phrase but they were still existed.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, I have an interesting model someplace that in fact I wrote and published it. I don't know which journal, but it was that you basically you have events that occur something and that's kind of interesting onesies and twosies. And then you go out and then you find out, well, there's really more of them. And then you go out and you find out, well, Jesus, huge number of studies. Then you do study of studies. And when you do that you find out, oh, this started happening long before the zero patient, if you will. And so that's one of the ones where yes, there have always been. Now we go back to Earth and Plato and things and you find out it was there. You just didn't notice it before.
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Host 2
I think it's a great resource to have Buddhist monks to talk to about that stuff.
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Colonel John Alexander
Well, like I say, that was. The time frame is off by a decade or so.
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Host 2
We'll get into Raymond Moody a little bit later too because he's he's fascinating. He's changed my thinking on quite a few things. Raymond Moody and Kubler Ross, too. You mentioned Elizabeth. Yeah, you knew everybody well.
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Colonel John Alexander
Elizabeth was the head of my doctoral committee. And that's one of these strange stories. And I had answered some questions before, and one of them was, was there an event that changed? No, there are just so many of them. What had happened is I was in OE school in California and had seen some tapes where she was now talking about near death experiences. This had been 77, 78 time frame, and she had come to lecture. And then there was a workshop that I attended on my own. And it was very unusual in that about 50% of the people who were in attendance were medical professionals. About a quarter of the people were, like me, just kind of interested. The other quarter were dying.
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Host 2
Oh, my goodness.
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Colonel John Alexander
So from an emotional family, this is really an intense kind of workshop. Very different. And so I had gone. I was stationed at Fort McPherson in Atlanta at the time. And I just sent her a letter that was kind of a gee, thanks. It was very impactful. And one, because these do get emotionally intense, I bet, as you can imagine. So a few weeks later, we had secretaries at the time, came in and said, you know, you got a call from Elizabeth, her assistant. Okay. And the call was, says, well, Elizabeth is going to be coming through Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her? Now these. Remember, you could still go out to the gate and all of that. And she had several hours there. Can you meet? Well, of course. And I was getting ready to work on a dissertation in a different area, but in behavioral science. And so she arrives and I said, I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. What's that? Would you work on the committee? She says, oh, yes. Didn't want to get into models and things. But anyway, that's one of those events. And her other comment was, look, I know a thousand people in Atlanta, and I chose you to call and I have no idea why. That's when I said, I think I'm supposed to ask a question.
- [36:14]
Host 2
Yes. Do you believe in synchronicities and things like that? How do you not?
- [36:20]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, we'll probably get into generic consciousness sorts of things, but, you know, that is one of many that have occurred. And so you say, is there a single event? No, there's just those have happened and happen. My probability throughout the military career is totally impossible. You know, you said, colonel, My probability of making colonel is below zero because I had not done the. You were supposed to do certain things, and technically I was an infantry officer. I'd spent most of my time in Special Forces and doing other sorts of things at two tours ever in the infantry. And so when the board came out, I was getting ready to retire, so. Okay, that's. It's been fun but like I say, the probabilities are just impossible.
- [37:27]
Host 2
Why was it so hard? I mean you were enlisted as private and I think they call you guys a Mustang. Come up hard. Come up hard.
- [37:35]
Colonel John Alexander
I was. Well, when I went to ocs, kicking and screaming.
- [37:42]
Host 1
You didn't want to go to ocs?
- [37:43]
Colonel John Alexander
No, not really.
- [37:45]
Host 2
What did you want to do?
- [37:46]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, by this time I was an E7, the youngest in the army in a sergeant major position. I mean that's just impossible.
- [37:57]
Host 2
What year were you, did you get promoted to E7?
- [38:00]
Colonel John Alexander
62, 63. Okay. I have to go back and check. Check the records.
- [38:08]
Host 2
So you're only in six or seven years. Only about six years fast. Yeah.
- [38:13]
Colonel John Alexander
And there were a whole set again little synchronicities that happened that could allow for that and yeah, so for me, certain majors were gods.
- [38:26]
Guest or Additional Commentator
Sure.
- [38:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Why would I want to be one of them?
- [38:33]
Host 2
So you wanted, you wanted to just stay with the infantry.
- [38:35]
Colonel John Alexander
You didn't want to have Special Forces.
- [38:38]
Host 1
Right.
- [38:39]
Host 2
So you wanted to stay there.
- [38:41]
Colonel John Alexander
Pretty much. I mean that was. Yeah, more interested in special operations. And of course then as I got promoted, I was a special forces medic because then in the operation slot and then after ocs, it was a short time after that that Vietnam was heating up and that I went back on active duty and say the rest is history.
- [39:12]
Host 2
Yeah. There's a part of your story that amazes me between assignments. You were scuba diving the Bermuda Triangle, looking for pre cataclysm civilizations. What did you find and why did you do that?
- [39:30]
Colonel John Alexander
Why did I do it? But this time I'm quite interested. This is now 69ish, maybe 70.
- [39:39]
Host 2
Oh, so you're actually between tours.
- [39:42]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, yeah, the reality was at that time, but now I'm commissioned. I'm a captain. I had been come out of Vietnam already captain already. Oh yeah. Well, remember in Vietnam that went. Yeah, it was two years to captain. So rightly or wrongly they say war, what do you get promotions? So yeah, we was most of the time taking any long period of leave. You just didn't do that just because of the jobs you were in and whatnot. And so if you're going to be off for a few weeks, it was between assignments. And I think that's. Where was I coming from? I think not sure where I was coming from. But I was going to Fort Benning to go to the career course, if you will. But I had time. Remember, I was from Miami area. I lived there at the time. So in fact, when I was in Vietnam, my family had stayed there and I had also run into people that had done some pretty unique research into the Benning wall and what. In fact, Jay Manson Valentine is the one who found the area and a couple of some twins that I knew hate this. We get reaching way, way back, but had introduced me and had an opportunity to go out and actually dive on it. I have problems with the quote explanation that it's pens or something like this, because it took both. There was a thing without. I think it was 1800 meters long. And when you dive on it, you dive this side, it's ocean. Here are a whole series of rocks that are very clearly placed in there, huge. And you blew out the other side, it's not there and you could free dive it. So we didn't need tanks or anything to do it. So yeah. Another area of interest, even more so now is I am not a fan of out of Africa for the invasion. And I think we're finding more and more evidence that particularly in Western hemisphere, our notion of history has got to be wrong. There were huge pockets of civilization where you just can't get there from here. No, if you use the typical out of Africa approach, not to mention, as, you know, they go out well, they go magnum. And you meet Denisovans and you go, well. And then you meet and you go, well, where did they come from? You know, why were these other, you know, pockets of population their. And when you get into Central and South America, this is much more recently. But when you go through, particularly in Central America and you see all these mounds that are there, basically every mound is a temple. They just haven't been excavated yet. And we're doing more with lidars, you know, looking and coming out, finding larger and larger groups. And I find that's true. All the way down into Matteo Grosso had. I remember being in Eca in Peru and seeing the mummies there and they were going. He said, well, where they gave. And they gave me the Aleutian chain. And then, you know, cold game. And you go, but you asked why, why don't you do some better DNA testing and things? And the answer was funding, quite frankly. But the more that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger population centers throughout. You get into Matteo Grosso, for instance, there are areas in Brazil
- [44:20]
Host 2
and They're finding these giant roads connecting all these places.
- [44:23]
Colonel John Alexander
What's the point? Yeah,
- [44:27]
Host 2
yeah. They keep revising the date backwards farther and farther.
- [44:30]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [44:31]
Host 2
Were you looking for Atlantis?
- [44:33]
Colonel John Alexander
Yes.
- [44:34]
Host 2
You were looking for Atlantis, so.
- [44:35]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, I had certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules is the continent of Atlantis. So that's sort of what it was listed as. Can't say it was Atlantis per se certainly. And didn't was not continental in form but there was something there that was pretty damn big. And no, I don't think it was fish pens or something like that.
- [45:03]
Host 2
So there's no question that Bimini is man made but we just don't know what it was for
- [45:10]
Colonel John Alexander
Bimini Islands.
- [45:12]
Host 2
I mean Bimini Road.
- [45:14]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. In my view. Yeah. I do not see that. Well, certainly man made and certainly not simple, you know, explanation of them way, way too big.
- [45:28]
Host 2
Why do you think there's such pushback on the theory of a pre, like a pre Diluvian civilization? Why resist that?
- [45:38]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, part of it's just generic history. There's two things in one I'm sure we'll get into and that is literally worldview. And we've been kind of bouncing around the outside of this already. But one of the pure materialistic, you know, we're going to go back and get to the God particle or something like that. And the other that I tend to support is more like Max Planck that says you can't get behind consciousness and I. E. The idea that consciousness arises or the physical arises from consciousness as opposed to, you know, something we generate in a few pounds of meat.
- [46:23]
Host 2
Yeah, I tend to believe the same thing, but I, I don't know who created it in the first place. Was consciousness here before the Big Bang?
- [46:34]
Colonel John Alexander
Consciousness is.
- [46:36]
Host 2
It is.
- [46:38]
Colonel John Alexander
I get that question and it's kind of hard to explain. And in our, you know, the worldview again that we brought up the standard review, of course we're seeing a huge shift now between classical physics to quantum. My best quote on that was from John Feynman who had been at Los Alamos as you know, and he goes, anybody who says they understand quantum mechanics doesn't.
- [47:10]
Host 1
That's right.
- [47:11]
Host 2
That's a great quote. We're coming up at a break, but I can't help but ask, did you, you were friendly with Ed Teller?
- [47:20]
Colonel John Alexander
Yes.
- [47:21]
Host 2
Did you and, and Teller ever discuss Max Planck's theories about consciousness?
- [47:27]
Colonel John Alexander
No.
- [47:28]
Host 2
I would have loved to get his.
- [47:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [47:30]
Host 2
Imagine picking his brain.
- [47:31]
Colonel John Alexander
We did do UFOs and we may want to discuss some of that a bit longer. But yeah, no, and as you know, had him over, literally over for dinner several times and because more interested initially in what's his take on UFOs.
- [47:50]
Host 2
What did he think
- [47:53]
Colonel John Alexander
the quote was, you're looking in the wrong place. And he did not mean by that in looking in the wrong files. He was talking about telescopes and things like that. But again, we're still talking a time when even my thinking was we're talking physical hard craft and we're crap playing around. But I had by this time had already had the advanced theoretical physics. I'm sure you've got into some of that.
- [48:28]
Host 2
Yeah, we'll get into that.
- [48:29]
Colonel John Alexander
So we had a lot of cases and now he was interested in Cash Landrum.
- [48:36]
Host 2
He was, yeah. What, what drew him to that? That's 1980.
- [48:41]
Colonel John Alexander
Radiation.
- [48:42]
Host 2
Radiation, yeah.
- [48:43]
Colonel John Alexander
Cash Landrum is December of 1980.
- [48:46]
Host 2
Yep.
- [48:48]
Colonel John Alexander
I mean, remember his thing? Radiation?
- [48:51]
Host 1
Sure.
- [48:51]
Colonel John Alexander
The idea of people have been irradiated in that, you know, that was. God. Some personal interest.
- [48:59]
Host 2
All right, we'll take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about the new Mental Battlefield.
- [49:03]
Colonel John Alexander
Okay.
- [49:04]
Host 2
All right, we'll be right back. Okay. In December 1980, you published the New Mental Battlefield. Sent it to Military Review, expected them to reject it and they put it
- [49:14]
Colonel John Alexander
on the COVID Yep.
- [49:16]
Host 2
Who was the editor? What was he like?
- [49:19]
Colonel John Alexander
No, that was key. And another one of these serendipitous events. I was attending Command General Staff College at Leavenworth. Not terribly challenging. So I wrote the article because I was interested in these various weird shit things. Like I said, I really didn't think that I went into remote viewing and psychokinesis. And of course at that time, a book that had recently come out was Psychic Discoveries behind the Iron Curtain. And so what are the Soviets doing and all that? By the way, I keep slipping between Soviet and Russia and all. I don't understand the difference. But most of my life was in the Soviet era. So we were very concerned about what they're doing. So I wrote the article and turns out, and I don't remember the editor's name, but I got to meet him, he'd had a near death experience and had been out of body. And that's how the thing got from not only printed to the front cover of the magazine. So it came out. By the time it came out, I'm now in Washington, in the Pentagon, assigned as Department of Army Inspector General. And frankly it came out as, you know, not, not a whole lot of it. However, there was a, you know, Jack Anderson. Okay, so Jack Anderson picks up on this. And he writes the story, the voodoo warriors of the Pentagon. You know, ain't it awful? Look, all the Pentagon's wasting your money. And of course, he was syndicated, so this went out widely. I got to meet the guy. It turns out he hadn't written the article. The guy's name, he took that and wrote a book. What happened was said they got more response to that article than anything he had ever written. And it was 99% against them. Everybody was saying, well, of course the Soviets are doing this. We ought to be doing that and whatnot. Which was not. He actually showed me the draft article, which was written positively. And they just flipped a few words from look at the neat stuff they're doing to look at how they're wasting your money and whatnot. Fast forward after that happens again. I'm literally in the bowels of the Pentagon and this Lieutenant Colonel comes roaring in. Did you write this article? I said, yeah. Don't you know the process for getting it cleared? Yes. Why? And why I had the file there, I don't know. But I happened to have one that says, what office are you from? You had been from Axie. This isn't Chief of Staff. Fast forward a number of years later, we're doing a spoon denting party, and the guy raises his hand. Colonel, did you write such an article? I said, yeah. Would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?
- [52:43]
Host 2
Wow. He was there at the spoon betting party.
- [52:45]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, this was an official event, so all the people there were military. But the point is he'd gotten his ass handed to.
- [52:54]
Host 2
Oh, he did.
- [52:55]
Colonel John Alexander
For letting it out. You know, they. He may or may not have known about. I think it was a grill flame at the time, but.
- [53:06]
Host 2
Oh, pre Stargate.
- [53:07]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh long. It went through several iterations, the same program, but his name sure changed and locations and things like that. But it was all under, actually the assistant Chief of Staff for intelligence. And so that was the officer who came in screaming because. But this gets into the compartmentalization where part of people know what's going on and other people don't. And it didn't raise any flags at the time that it went in. Yeah.
- [53:41]
Host 2
So you brought the spoon bending parties. Can you tell me a little bit about Stubblebine? What was he like? Did he really try to walk through walls and do stuff with the clouds?
- [53:53]
Colonel John Alexander
No, the clouds are real.
- [53:55]
Host 1
Okay.
- [53:56]
Colonel John Alexander
I used to do that. You can actually do that.
- [54:01]
Host 2
You can make clouds.
- [54:02]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Disappear. Yeah. And what you do is in order to know there was the right one. If you got kind of a chain, and you got to identify which one you're working with. It's kind of hard to explain, but yeah, mentally, you can bust clouds.
- [54:18]
Host 2
You can do it.
- [54:19]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Host 2
How do you know they're just not doing that on their own?
- [54:24]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, the point there is, like I say, you have a series and you pick one and you pick that one, and the ones next to it don't do it. Disappear. Yeah. And only the one that you're working on does. I don't know of any scientific data that would back it up. My personal experience is, yeah, we did that. So that part was done. One of the things about Silvolvine was a. Was very interested in the field and all of that. What was done on generally at the time is he was one of these people who was allergic to, like, bee stings or thing. And so he was going out to Walter Reed and constantly getting shots, Trying to, you know, from a military perspective, it's not good. In fact, I got evacuated once on bee stings. Vietnam, we call them VCBs, but, you know, where you get multiple stings very quickly. So he couldn't do that. So this was a gedankin thing. He says, well, if I'm mostly air or, you know, vacuum, and the needle is mostly made up of nothing, then we ought to be able to interpenetrate without doing it. But I have no indication he ever ran into a wall or anything like that.
- [55:54]
Host 2
But he did believe everything is made up of mostly nothing.
- [55:57]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, yeah. Well, that's true.
- [55:58]
Host 2
It's true.
- [55:59]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. I mean, if you think about even just from a pure atomic level, remember, most of the stuff is not matter. It's space in between.
- [56:09]
Host 2
Of course.
- [56:09]
Colonel John Alexander
So the idea would be to interpenetrate by push. This way, then it hurts. But if I can slip between, it may not hit pain receptors.
- [56:20]
Host 2
So the spoon betting parties, were those stubble bind or is that a hawk?
- [56:25]
Colonel John Alexander
Yes, yes, yes.
- [56:27]
Host 2
Okay.
- [56:28]
Colonel John Alexander
No. What happened? We had heard about Jack. I forget. Jack Hauk, by the way people don't know, is the aerospace engineer at McDonnell Douglas. And he had. Actually, this is where Uri comes in as well. Uri was kind of the model, so he'd heard about these things. And so Jack developed a process where basically anybody could do it. And that what happened was that we had heard about. He was actually a contractor for CIA at the time, working on a problem which brought him back and forth to the Washington area.
- [57:14]
Host 2
Uri Geller was.
- [57:15]
Colonel John Alexander
No. Jack Howe. Right, Jack. Great guy. In fact, we got him the Dinsdale Award for It he was very interested in these areas. He had developed. Anyway, he had developed a kind of a. Called PK parties or pkmb. And so some friends had him over and attended that and so on. That's kind of interesting. So I went to Bert and said, hey, you know, hey, this is real. Let's set it up. So we had an event at my apartment. It was in Northern Virginia. You know, Andrea Paharis or folks. Very well, Andrea was there, as a matter of fact. Probably don't know Ted Rockwell. No, Ted's key because Ted is or was then he had his own business. He was Rickover's technical director and he brought with him by the name of Ann Gaiman, who is quite an effective medium in that. So we had a number of. There was an ambassador there and some others. And we ended up we were sitting around literally on the floor and kind of in a quasi circle and still not quite sure. But when you start, you can use some physical force and you talk them through it and you can feel most feel a perceptual change in the material and all of that. So we were doing that and it turns out that Bert was sitting directly across from Ann Gaiman and she's one. We get to the final session where you hold a pair of forks, match forks, you know, and no physical force allowed. And all of a sudden the thing goes. And we went, oh, shit.
- [59:18]
Host 2
Did you expect that to happen?
- [59:20]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no. Well, kind of hoped. I mean, that's true. But. But the idea that. And, but it happened that dramatically and directly across from him and absolutely no physical force.
- [59:33]
Host 2
And.
- [59:37]
Colonel John Alexander
This is real now sometimes it's not like. And I get asked all the time where you've been to forklift a. Don't do that, don't demonstrate. And it's more because of. And this is why we went to the PK party thing and Bert would bring, you know, the senior folks in because if I bend it, you can give me 100 reasons how. And yes, there are tricks and like they have trained with, you know, I don't know if you know Alon new he's a local magician here and that's kind of one of his sticks now. However, he does believe we got involved because, you know, he does believe that it can be done real. But there are ways to manipulate him. So the idea in fact in taking us to see Bird would have love INS NSCOM is a unit around the world. I mean, we supplied the people to the listening station of NSA and all of that.
- [60:40]
Host 2
So what's inscom for folks who don't
- [60:42]
Colonel John Alexander
know intelligence and security command, they're now at Fort Belvoir. They were at Arlington hall at the time, two star command. But you have these colonel level command all over the world. So they'd bring them in about once a quarter, you know, what's going on, what are you going to do, planning for the next. And so periodically we would do it. By the way, these were not universally thought to be a good thing.
- [61:11]
Host 2
I bet not.
- [61:12]
Colonel John Alexander
There were a lot of people very resistant. But his reason for doing it was not to bend spoons. And I always used to get asked, are you going to bend tank barrels? No. And this is the early 80s already. But computers, you know, that's where I think the vulnerability actually is. But the idea.
- [61:38]
Host 2
Oh, okay.
- [61:40]
Colonel John Alexander
But the idea was more doing it with his commanders to say, don't disregard things just because you don't understand it. Because we had been blindsided. Remember Sputnik and there were a number of Soviet advances that had really caught us off guard. And you go back and you look and well, the information was there, but. Well, the classic one is one that you actually talked about a program that had to do with the submarines. And it was Joe McMonagle is the one who had done that. But he came up, you know, they had asked him, this is the remote viewing program. Now they'd given him in that case geographic coordinates a bit changed, but. And he says, well, there's this big ass submarine and it's dual hulled and the tubes are forward to the sail and a whole bunch of things that were different. And they send it to our boat builders and that.
- [62:44]
Host 2
Right.
- [62:44]
Colonel John Alexander
You know, we, we don't have any information. Besides, if you built something that big, when it went to depth, it would crush. And then the clouds parted and the cameras came on. There's the typhoon class submarine.
- [62:57]
Host 2
Yeah, there it is.
- [63:00]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [63:01]
Host 2
So with double hulls and all that.
- [63:03]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. But the point, man, it was all as Joe had outline. But his point was no, we've been blindsided enough. So just because you get things you don't believe, now you've had an experience of seeing things that would happen like that. It's a reminder that, you know, check, check it out. Don't just classically disregard.
- [63:28]
Host 2
Can we see some of the silverware?
- [63:30]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh yeah.
- [63:33]
Host 2
These are amazing.
- [63:34]
Colonel John Alexander
Other programs. What I brought with me is these are literally the actual forks that happen have tape on them because I normally keep them stuck. Now you got to. What happens is that at the end, what we call the graduate school, you hold them thusly. And so this took place at Xerox center, and we had, again, the folks from all over the world, mostly zero sixes, if you will, fives, couple generals. And so I am in kind of a semicircle. I'm in front, and there's two rows, and these guys yell. And this thing had dropped a full 90 degrees, which I did not see.
- [64:26]
Host 2
Were you holding it?
- [64:27]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no, no. This is. I'll get to why I hold. These are the actual forks. But what happens then? Well, GS18, a science advisor, is the one who saw it drop. And these people yell. But I'm also, frankly, a little skeptical that somebody's not putting me on. Because, remember, these people are not happy, right, that we're doing this on hallowed grounds. But then, because they just drops over it, comes back up to straight up, goes back down and back to where it literally waved. Now, that's an n of 1. I saw that once. These are the ones. And the reason I have them is the guy put them down and said, I wish that hadn't happened. I mean, really scared him.
- [65:19]
Host 2
Sure.
- [65:21]
Colonel John Alexander
Because normally when we do these things, people take all the stuff home with them, which is fine. And normally that's what would have happened. There were some other major bends that took place last night, and whoever did it did take them with them. You can tell, that's.
- [65:38]
Host 2
Oh, you can tell.
- [65:39]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. But the point is, the only time I saw Anne's drop that once, a full 90 degrees, I saw. This was the only one where we actually saw it, you know, kind of literally wave at us, understanding. Because he was assigned in Europe and Sullivan was over on another trip and saw him, said he did it once more at home and put it down and said, never again.
- [66:11]
Host 2
So who is bending it?
- [66:12]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, this colonel.
- [66:13]
Host 2
The colonel was.
- [66:14]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [66:14]
Host 2
And he didn't expect it to work.
- [66:17]
Colonel John Alexander
He did not want it to work. I understand that this is a personal, you know, scaring him. Now, one of the things. And we haven't gone into the work of the devil in all of these things. This is a major issue. I mean, not to be taken trivial as, you know, you get into the ufo, we have the vice president now talking about demons that are out there at all. But I had. Well, when the article came out, a number of friends that I talked to, again, I'm in the building and they're going like, that's the work of the devil. We shouldn't be doing that. And as a matter of fact, a good rationale why the program moved from the army to Defense Intelligence Agency and had chief of staff of the Army. Well, fundamentalist Christian. And those issues had never gone away.
- [67:19]
Host 2
Where do you stand on that? Do you think it's some type of spiritual warfare or anything like that?
- [67:26]
Colonel John Alexander
That's a very different question.
- [67:28]
Host 2
Is it?
- [67:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Is it spiritual warfare or whatnot? I do think there's a spiritual domain that we're getting into, and this is where all of these things come together and it's back into consciousness and all of that. But you added another word, and that was warfare.
- [67:49]
Host 2
Yes.
- [67:51]
Colonel John Alexander
Does it happen now? One of my problems with many of the organized religions is that they set up dogma. I'll digress a bit. I said Kubler Ross had been the head of my doctoral committee, and while I was doing the dissertation, she made me change one word that was from religious to spiritual. And it made a major difference in the outcome of a thing. And many of the people said, I don't like the dogma of the church, but I have a spiritual relationship with supreme being, whatever you want to call that. There were others who said, I believe it's spiritual, but I like the ritual of the church having grown up within that. But it gets terribly, terribly complex stuff.
- [68:49]
Host 2
It does. I mean, I know you know Chris Bledsoe very well when. When he was here, I. I asked him, can anyone learn to summon orbs? He said, yes, but you shouldn't.
- [69:01]
Colonel John Alexander
I haven't talked to her, been in touch with Chris since yesterday.
- [69:07]
Host 2
He doesn't.
- [69:08]
Colonel John Alexander
You know that story, or should I tell them?
- [69:11]
Host 2
Tell it.
- [69:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, well, what had happened is that yeah, immediately had met him in Pennsylvania initially and talked and had this long story. I mean, he told it, but you can do hours, literally. And so I knew about the initial thing. Victoria and I went to see him and we spent a few days and we went down to the Cape Fear river where that incident, the initial incidents had occurred. And so what got my attention. Well, I already had. Was pretty positively disposed because I had seen enough stuff. But we went down to the lower thing right next to the river, walked back up where he says he had seen the going beams and all that. So we're at the car, and Victoria and his daughter Emily get in the back seat of the car, and Chris and I are leaning against the left front hunter. It's getting. Just starting to get dark twilight. And he turned to me and said, oh, I think they're here. And with that, this thing pops into view and goes zipping off. And I saw that and there was a second again, the temporal relationship between him saying, I think it's here and that now we've done a lot more since that. In fact, doing some competition now and trying to prove in consciousness. The big one. Did you do the one on realsplitter? This was on Beyond Skinwalker Ranch. And the incident that I think is truly phenomenal is that the split screen, Chris is sitting there pointing off the UFOs or, or the orbs, if you will, over there, the second camera has the orbs. The third one, he's got an EEG helmet on. And you see a massive shift in brainwaves when he says, you know, this interaction is occurring.
- [71:27]
Host 2
Wow.
- [71:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Easily quantifiable, kind of can't quite explain it, but it does say that there is, there are things going on and I think, I can't say it's totally unique. I will say I'm hearing more and more people who are, you know, doing summoning. I should mention Bob Monroe and that
- [71:51]
Host 2
I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob, the Monroe Institute.
- [71:54]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, I knew Bob, of course you did, but. Yeah, well, what folks don't know is. Yeah, he used to go out and do this too.
- [72:07]
Host 2
Bob would summon orbs?
- [72:08]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, no. UFOs.
- [72:10]
Host 2
UFOs.
- [72:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And by the way, Elizabeth also was a friend of his, had been down there and yes, they would some of them in and see the. See one of my first questions that I do on the UFO presentations is what do you mean? Because I got orbs, little balls of light that are running out. I got hard craft that are miles, literally miles across and thousands and thousands of variations in between. That's why I come down against the ETH or extraterrestrial hypothesis. Not because they aren't there, but that's just too simple. Unless Earth is on the galactic list of bucket list of places that have to be visited or something like that. But there's pieces of that that don't make sense. But the idea is again, it gets back to what we said before. Yeah, it's happened, it's got the G. But it's kind of always been going on. It's like near death experiences for many families for years and years. They just never talked about it. It was something that was talking to family because it was crazy or something of this. I happen to have one of the most unique NDEs where you have physical effects on that.
- [73:38]
Host 2
You had one?
- [73:39]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, no, this is, I guess Task Force Delta was being formed, which is different from Delta Force.
- [73:50]
Host 2
Right.
- [73:51]
Colonel John Alexander
This was a think tank sort of thing and it got introduced to an Individual. He's not really, I think ever come public. But what was unique about it because they told me that he was shot down. What happened was normally this is Vietnam story but normally when you went out at least in pairs. Well, this particular day, this one Cobra was out flying along and the Cobra, you know, you got the pilot, pilot and co pilot lined up like this. They're kind of screwing around and they get raked.51 caliber. And it's bad enough that Jim gets hit inside the leg, breaks his leg and all of that. The what happens as he described it to me is when he gets hit, he goes forward. The supposedly the landing or the controls are shot away, but he remembers landing. Now what happened though was there was no place to land per se. There was a small opening. So they go into a. Brings it nose up. So it's going to come in boom, fast. Going to be a very bad day under all circumstances. But it kind of ameliorates the shock because it coming in like this. What's key though is that you have no idea what the orientation of the helicopter is going to be because the blades are still spinning, which is going to affect the way it lands. So you don't know until the end of that. Well, it turns out about a click and a half in front of them is a friendly fire support base. And they see the incident happening. Crashes. Malone beats his. All of a sudden Jim's out of his body up floating above and he's looking down and he can say, here's the helicopter, here's how it's oriented. And there's the base in front of us and says this hooded. I said why male? But he thought it was a male figure. Says, what are you doing here? And he said the response was, well, I want help for them, not I'm in trouble. And he says, but don't you know. He says, know what? You're not dead yet. With this. Jim sits up inside the thing. Backseat has already gotten out and he's running away. At that instant he turns and he sees Jim move. So he runs back and grabs me. He says I thought you were dead. You haven't move since we were hit. And he says there's a fire or friendly base that's out over here. I'm going to go for help. Says no, Jim, no, no, it's in this direction. Guy ancest. No, it's this way. Jim can't move. Got a broken leg. His face is literally burned off.
- [76:56]
Host 2
Oh my God.
- [76:57]
Colonel John Alexander
It was now setting in. And he goes, no time to Argue literally gets the guy to give him his pistol as he's decided to commit suicide rather than be captured. So what happens is the bad guys come sweeping bad in this case, obviously relative. And then the friendly base comes in and they. They find him. But this is the only case that I have because they put him in a jungle penetrator and lift him up and he can say, here's the helicopter, there's the base. This guy's lost and saved his life because before he passes out, he's able to say, went in this direction. But the only case that I have where the guy physically replicates in body, what is out of body position.
- [77:50]
Host 2
Right.
- [77:50]
Colonel John Alexander
Ben?
- [77:54]
Host 2
I think Joe McMonagle said it was his near death experience that kind of awakened his abilities.
- [77:59]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, I was also a past president of the International association for near death Studies. And I've seen this change. And one of the things, interesting things that happened initially. Initially, now we're talking late 70s, 80s. The idea was that this was a discrete event that happened over a very short period of time. And yeah, mystical things happened, but it happened within that time frame. One of the things that became apparent with ions was that no people did gain abilities, particularly psychic abilities, precognition. One of the main things we've got to watch, but was that electronics that these people couldn't be around electronics, they could be affected by it. But that turned out to be one of the unexpected issues that had happened. Of course, the other was the amount of things that happened during this discrete integer, you know, how long you were out. Time just doesn't seem to count. No, no, no. You know, my brother Eben, no relationship on that. Really good. There's a case where he was out for nearly a week and out of
- [79:34]
Host 2
body for a week.
- [79:35]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, the NDE has lasted. He's definitely in coma for about that long. End game meningitis. And he has these fantastic experiences that happen. One of the. But the thing about Evan that I think was unique. He was a neurosurgeon. So he's one of the few people who came in and says, I understand neurophysiology. And now the brain could not have been functioning. One of the aspects of it, there's many. And I recommend Proof of Heaven is his book. Well, he's got several Proof of Heaven, Map of Heaven was another one. But he talks about being out, going through these realms and he has this butterfly, the female, that takes him around and all of that. Turns out that Eben had been adopted at birth, kind of uniquely after he's adopted. Moved away into the Alexander family. His birth parents marry and have other kids. So he has siblings that he doesn't know. He doesn't know who his birth parents are. Doesn't know much about the family or anything.
- [80:57]
Host 2
He knows he's adopted, though.
- [80:58]
Colonel John Alexander
He doesn't know he's adopted.
- [81:00]
Host 2
Doesn't know the parent. Okay.
- [81:01]
Colonel John Alexander
Doesn't know birth parents or anything. So he gets in contact with them and he gets a picture of a now deceased daughter and he says that's the butterfly.
- [81:17]
Host 2
Wow.
- [81:22]
Colonel John Alexander
Did not know her or anything about it. It was really, you know,
- [81:30]
Host 2
did that give him any sense of peace or how did he feel about that? I don't know if you're frightened.
- [81:39]
Colonel John Alexander
He's big. Of course this stuff starts bleeding into all of it in the consciousness field because what he will talk about is layers and layers of complexity that is hard to. Beyond our capability of understanding. Certainly that. Yeah. But this was part of, you know, this was transformational kinds of things that happen. The other one, the case, well, we jumped from Jim. He did not, like I said, did not really go public with that much. I forget how some mutual friends were aware we were both in this task force delta and how that came about. The other one that I think is, well, there's so many again. Again, you can search ions files, but another one that I think is absolutely critical. Yeah. Mary Neal. Is that name ring a bell or to heaven and back?
- [83:00]
Host 2
Yes.
- [83:01]
Colonel John Alexander
Okay. In her case, what's interesting, she's kayaking in northern Chile in a remote area and long story, but she the last day and they go over a waterfall and she's an experienced kayaker, so it's well within her range, but she gets forced into not the way she wanted to go and goes over and the kayak goes in and locks underwater. And normally there's a release you can hit, but because of the force of the waterfall, can't reach it or anything like that. Probably underwater. 30, 35 minutes.
- [83:44]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [83:45]
Colonel John Alexander
Find her body down there, bring her back. Two guys appear and they assist in carrying her, you know, to the waiting ambulance in an area that has no ambulances. And then they, you know, take her to the now she says met God being out there. Another thing she had four young children and something no mother would want to hear is, oh, your son's going to die. At 17.
- [84:20]
Host 2
She was told that.
- [84:22]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And did not relay that to anybody. Like I say, listen. So about a year before she finally told her husband, by the way, she's an orthopedic surgeon in her Own right. And they tell him. And sure enough, birthday comes and he's out skateboarding in a different location and the car zigs to miss somebody and zags. And last time I talked to her was interesting, was that she said, well, there were. There were other things that have yet to come to pass. So she says, well, that's personal. But, yeah, more information that had been transferred.
- [85:07]
Host 2
Who would. Why burden her with that information? Why do that?
- [85:12]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, I would not say she sees that as a burden.
- [85:16]
Host 2
Knowing that your son's gonna die. I don't know if I can handle
- [85:18]
Colonel John Alexander
it knowing that we're going to be together.
- [85:23]
Host 2
John, do you think. Do you think about what's. Do you think about what's gonna happen to you?
- [85:30]
Colonel John Alexander
No. Well, I'm long past my expiration date.
- [85:32]
Host 2
You are. And you're still going strong?
- [85:35]
Colonel John Alexander
My mother died from a biological standpoint. My mother died early 50s and father about 70. I'm long past that now.
- [85:47]
Host 2
You don't seem too worried.
- [85:49]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no. My question is, it's like all of these things, these incidents that have happened and leading me going like, would somebody just give us the map?
- [86:00]
Host 2
Right.
- [86:01]
Colonel John Alexander
What do you want to do? We'll go do it. It'd be easier. It would be an area that has come up more recently, though, has to do with pre birth agreements, and this is coming more and more into vogue that we made certain agreements and you're going to be presented. You still have free will. You get on the conundrum of free will versus predestination, but the. That you can, you know, you'll be presented with certain things that will allow you to make choices, and you still have a choice of which way to, you know, to go with it. But. Yeah, I've always wondered what we. Well, particularly the world as it is now, did we really sign up for this?
- [86:51]
Host 2
Right. I think. I think Raymond Moody's talked about it. I don't know if you know Michael Newton's work. He's talked about that life between lives and how we kind of gather together as in soul groups, and we decide together, like, all right, I'll see you down there. And this is what we're gonna do. You kind of feel the same way?
- [87:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Pretty much. Pretty much. I had. Well, this is kind of an odyssey, kind of given the movie. But one of the issues was that the temporal shifts that take place and followed. Homer did the same thing when writing it, but. Way back, you know, it was doing hypnotic regressions.
- [87:41]
Host 2
You were.
- [87:42]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And, you know, the issues are what's. What's in between and all of that.
- [87:50]
Host 2
What did you see?
- [87:53]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, no, I was the hypnotist.
- [87:55]
Host 2
What. Where did you learn to do that?
- [87:58]
Colonel John Alexander
I am a terrible, terrible subject. I'm a control freak.
- [88:03]
Host 2
Same. And I admit it doesn't work on me.
- [88:06]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And I don't like about if we're going to go into ayahuasca or things like that, but it. Working with the shamans but got enough information. And again, a number of mediums. And again, some of the things that we had seen just make no sense. And familiar with automatic writing. That's one that's coming to mind now. This would have been Fort Benning, so 70, 71, 72 time frame. Working with a guy, Charles Logue, who was a professor at Columbus College there in. I forget the name the college, but they're in Columbus, Georgia and they were taking night courses and met some mediums who were doing phenomenal work. They used a planchette. So it's like you're a pen, but with balls points in the back. And would get these long, long messages. And that. What was most amazing to me though, and all of that interesting message. But this would get. This thing would scribble. I mean, just. And then all of a sudden they go. And this picture would emerge.
- [89:28]
Host 2
What was someone's hand on it like a Ouija board planchette. Okay.
- [89:32]
Colonel John Alexander
His hand is moving it.
- [89:34]
Host 2
And it would draw a picture.
- [89:35]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, it would draw. Looks like it was just scribbling right until the end. And it makes two or three moves and all of a sudden you go, wow, that's a picture. You know, the background stuff had all been put in and certainly beyond somebody, I think beyond their ability to. I'm going to scribble a bunch. And then. Oh, by the way, a couple lines. And here are this picture.
- [89:58]
Host 2
What was it a picture of?
- [90:00]
Colonel John Alexander
I don't recall.
- [90:02]
Host 2
But you don't recall.
- [90:06]
Colonel John Alexander
We're talking what, 70, 71 time frame. I mean, yeah, as I said, there are so many instances like this.
- [90:16]
Host 2
What. What deal do you think you made before? What deal do you think you made come before he came back? What was your reason to be here?
- [90:24]
Colonel John Alexander
Lack of common sense.
- [90:27]
Host 2
Will all these things happen to you?
- [90:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. It would be much easier if from the other side they said, here's the blueprint, go do this. As opposed to, oh, you're going to almost die, but you know, but then these sorts of things will happen. I mean, I look in Vietnam, some of the stories were aware of. But I could tell you the difference between the bullet Zinging and the bullet cracking, that means that it's that close, right? You know, that was an instance where for whatever reason, the guy who was shooting at me, who was pretty damn accurate, because the second shot, well, that was already happened to be a ditch there was right online. And had he done what you should have done, I shoot center of mass as opposed to a headshot. He'd have nailed me, there's no doubt about it. But that didn't happen. Why? Why can't I tell you these things? And they only make more sense in retrospect, of course, than what they do.
- [91:43]
Host 2
Well, you're clearly on mission still. I just wanted to know if you felt like you were. But you definitely are, I guess. Speaking of Vietnam and what about. Tell me about Project Jedi and the. And the experiment with the 45 cal.
- [92:02]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, this is back to INSCOM.
- [92:04]
Host 2
Yes.
- [92:05]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. NLP, if you remember. The NLP.
- [92:10]
Host 2
Neuro Linguistic Programming.
- [92:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [92:12]
Host 2
Okay.
- [92:13]
Colonel John Alexander
See, I had the two co founders, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, under contract and working with him was a guy you probably heard of called Tony Robbins.
- [92:24]
Host 2
I've heard of all three.
- [92:25]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Robbins and Grinder were working together. And this is when I'm working for Bert. Now, NLP was designed as a therapeutic modality. That is how you take broken people and make them better. And Frogs into Princes was the first book by Bandler and Grinder and it was, you know, how do we make them? Now in inscom, our problem was different. It was how do we take good people and make them even better. And so it was set up, like I said, had them all. By this time, Bandler and Grindler have split. So the twain's don't meet there, but Tony and actually did most of the work with Tony Robbins. This is, you know, before
- [93:20]
Host 2
Tony was Tony.
- [93:21]
Colonel John Alexander
Worldwide fame, right. And all of that. But we, it was an interagency group and one of the things we had in common is everybody shot something. Now the other problem with modalities were feeling better. You can't quantify that. So what we did is we. Since everybody shot and the question was not did you hit the target, did you not? It's you know, you hit the target and blah, blah, blah. So we got. It was difficult at the time. 45ammunition was really critical. We went out and we could go, we could contact anybody as models. And so we ended up people in the civilian sector. Why the army marksmanship unit is kind of the place to go. So we brought in the army champion, the interservice champion, and Their boss. And we did modeling with them and we did some stuff. First of all, things like, you know, why do you do this? What do you believe about shooting? And all of this? And all of them, you know, shooting was good and whatnot and you could protect life and there's a way to make a living and whatnot. So we went to the physical aspects of it and got them, took them and shooting and get them as far off balance you could get. And they were pretty damn good. Even being way off balance, they had enough muscle memory they could hit. But if you ask them to do a mental task like hum, Mary had a Little Lamb went to shit originally. So obviously it was more than physical and much more mental capability.
- [95:18]
Host 2
You know, it's interesting that Tony Robbins and those guys were involved because do you see now how we've got in like business success seminars, there's visualization, there's people doing the cold plunges.
- [95:37]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, you missed a biggie. Which is what we did with them. Well, again, the person we're working with on that, we had a day where in the morning we taught people how to break boards. You know, the karate.
- [95:53]
Host 2
That's right. He does that too. Also. Fire walking.
- [95:56]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's the, the second step. In the afternoon we did the spoon bending and in the evening we did fire walking.
- [96:06]
Host 2
You did?
- [96:07]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And the quote he uses but does not attribute was mine was, you know, the question was, what if you had a battalion of people that could do this? I said, yeah, you just have to tell them they're coming.
- [96:23]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [96:25]
Colonel John Alexander
But it was quite a day.
- [96:28]
Host 2
So was this all Project Jedi with those guys? Was this Jedi?
- [96:36]
Colonel John Alexander
Yes. I mean, kind of attached to name.
- [96:39]
Host 2
Sure.
- [96:41]
Colonel John Alexander
That was not one of the official titles. There have been several Jedi programs that have come up. Some of them official, others not. We just attached it again, Remember this was when Star wars was at his track and.
- [96:54]
Host 2
Oh, that's right.
- [96:55]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Jedi warriors are sure just the thing.
- [97:01]
Host 2
Did you notice that your program went civilian? Did you notice that the program went civilian? Like when, when Tony became famous, were you like we did that?
- [97:12]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do is attribute it to quote.
- [97:16]
Host 2
No. Why didn't the military take it more seriously?
- [97:25]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, no, that. Yeah, it's in the political aspects of it.
- [97:30]
Host 2
You don't have to.
- [97:31]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, no, no. A did for a while. Remember, this was. This weird shit is not all popular and you have the values of the big system, if you will. We were operating quite independently. We started a second project that was related and this had to do with NSA at the time. Remember INSCOM provides the people who work at nsa. Soviets were much faster. Our guys were topping out normally 25, 30 groups. Remember the stop code is sent in 5 digit segment burst and we would our guys topping out probably around 20, 30. The super debts that they had were listen to the Soviets, their fists could get up to like 60 words of minute. But we had a few people that we had found inside that were doing this and what they called them was super debts. Turns out that what we found out was basically we're looking for the wrong people. We looked for smart people and some people had said, you know, wrong question. The simple question to ask is what kind of stereo equipment do you own?
- [99:02]
Host 2
How does that work?
- [99:04]
Colonel John Alexander
That works because they hear better.
- [99:07]
Host 2
They hear better.
- [99:08]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And so that was really the defining question if you were going to look for people who are going to do well in this or ones that had super hearing. Now the other question we did have though is where's the buffer of the mind? Because what would happen is they would hear these things and the thing would stop and they're still putting this house. I don't have an answer for that. Sure. The question is where is the buffer? That because this thing is ill staging and you know, they would continue to write after the transmission has actually stopped
- [99:46]
Host 2
and you couldn't find the buffer.
- [99:49]
Colonel John Alexander
Maybe you could now with neurophysiology, FMRI or something like that, which we did not, you know, didn't exist right at the time, let alone, you know what, what did happen though was that this gets in the army political Bert as a two star general was in charge of INSCOM at the army staff level. You had the championship. Operations, personnel, research and development logistics are all four star or three star positions. And intelligence was two star. And they said that doesn't make sense. Intelligence ought to be. So we're going to make it a three star position. So there were two people. There were lots of the current axie, Bill Odom at the time and Bert Sublebein who was at inscom. And the fighting got really ugly. Some will know we had used the Monroe Institute for training for some of the. Well, just kind of a generic orientation as well as people doing remote viewing work. And we had an accident down there. People can look up and find the name, but we had a lieutenant. What happened was before people went down, they came in from all over the world and we busted them down at the Monroe Institute and they had all been screened because we had a shrink that worked with us Was this part
- [101:32]
Host 2
of Colonel O' Connell's report? Wayne O' Connell in 81 did a report on the gateway process from Monroe.
- [101:41]
Colonel John Alexander
Much later.
- [101:42]
Host 2
Later.
- [101:42]
Colonel John Alexander
Okay. Oh, no, I know the report. No, this is if that's 81. Well, the issue I was getting to was the accident. So somebody didn't show up. And this lieutenant, badgers, double blind. I want to go. I want to go. And he goes down there and frankly cracks up. Now, understand that in the military, unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year with tanks and things like that. Bad accidents took. Well, I should all say, yeah, this guy, I saw him wrapped up. He was bug fuck at the time, just ranting and raving. Send him to Walter Reed. And two, three days later, he's out. He's fine. Maybe got a Thorazine shot or something.
- [102:42]
Host 2
Sure.
- [102:43]
Colonel John Alexander
But he's recovered and he got his clearances back and everything, so he recovered from that experience almost instantly.
- [102:52]
Host 2
Did you need your psychiatrist involved?
- [102:53]
Colonel John Alexander
Forever.
- [102:54]
Host 2
Okay.
- [102:55]
Colonel John Alexander
And now what happens? It's about this time that we're upgrading intelligence that was used against Bert and just decimated. He kept coming back and back and, you know, frankly got forced into retirement over that. And we were doing this weird stuff. Ed Swoister came in behind him, who, interestingly, had no intelligence experience. He was an artillery officer, I think, and said his job was to clear the nest of vipers. Yes.
- [103:36]
Host 2
Did you stay in touch with stubble vine after retirement?
- [103:38]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, yeah.
- [103:39]
Host 2
How did he. How did he do? Was he okay?
- [103:44]
Colonel John Alexander
Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a truther. Wow. And really, there. One of the questions that comes up as to the efficacy of using. You had mentioned earlier when Chris said maybe shouldn't do is not risk free.
- [104:07]
Host 2
Let's take a quick break and come back and talk about John Hutchison and the ATP.
- [104:12]
Colonel John Alexander
Okay.
- [104:12]
Host 2
All right. Our audience knows John Hutchison's work. They don't really remember that 1983. You were sent by the military to evaluate John, weren't you?
- [104:26]
Colonel John Alexander
I was the one who paid him. Yeah.
- [104:27]
Host 2
Yeah. Can you just start at the beginning? Like, what. How did you learn about him?
- [104:32]
Colonel John Alexander
How do we learn about John? Well, there was George Hathaway, who is a double E from Toronto, and I'm trying to think of the guy's name who was with him, who was since deceased, and they had a small 16 millimeter film of a bunch of really weird things happening. And he came down and looked at it and said, you know, that's really impressive. Wonder how real it is. So set up a program Where? Yeah, I was paying him. He was working, had moved in Vancouver. One of the things that happened was that he had. Well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay, so he was living in an apartment and he had a basement lab, if you will, and he had Van de Graaff generators, Jacobs ladders and all kinds of spark making stuff. And the story, although I understand there are several, but the one he told me was that he would sit down there at night and he threw something into the area and all of a sudden it hit him and he threw it back and it came out and hit him again. And he goes like, what is it? There's nothing there. Now, the other problem was that with all of his electrical stuff, he was disturbing the environment. Now, remember, this was the days when TV went through the air, and so he was screwing with everybody's TV in the process. So they said he had to move
- [106:24]
Host 2
his enough energy to overcome a broadcast signal.
- [106:28]
Colonel John Alexander
Exactly. Again, he's just putting out crap.
- [106:31]
Host 2
Right.
- [106:32]
Colonel John Alexander
One of the things, what he told me he was doing was that he would look at pictures of Tesla and look at what's happening in his shop around there and just try to guess. How could he replicate some of that? It wasn't taking factual data, it was just taking pictures and. Well, if I put stuff here and whatnot.
- [106:55]
Host 2
Wow. I didn't know that he was just looking at the pictures, trying to.
- [106:58]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, trying to figure out he knew of Tesla. Of course, he had contacted George. George becomes the saving grace because he came over and did the diagrams of what all the things are where they were physically related to each other and. And all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was the piping because he's in the basement and whatnot. Couldn't replicate that. But they said the. Now this is where Ted Rockwell came back into it again. Again, Ted was Rickover's technical director, worked in nuclear energy, had his own company. By the way, it also gets into interspecies communication sorts of things. And Ted was the guy who brought Ann Gaiman so many of these things. That's one of the things about how many of these things just intertwine in ways that are almost unimaginable?
- [108:01]
Host 2
I mean, didn't you in the past, didn't you communicate with dolphins at some point or were you working on that?
- [108:08]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, that's a whole nother story. But yeah, we did work. That's what I call interspecies communication. Telepathic work. Neptune's helper, if we get to that. So anyway, like I say, we've seen the pictures, we've talked to them, and probably real. So we set it up. The idea was that they would recreate the workshop that that John had in Vancouver. And so, you know, he did. And one of the things that we did is I was physically at Fort Belvoir at the time, had a place down there as we were working with Cleve Baxter and those things. But so we took a bunch of metal samples and cut them in half, put half of them in the safe at Fort Belvoir and gave the other half to. For John to manipulate. Thinking we can, you know, see if there are physical structural changes or anything like that. Now the problem was John, no problem. Yeah, it is. There's no single effect. There were so many different things going on. You had mentioned earlier to me that, well, there were things that levitated. There was no doubt about that. The one that I found really interesting, people today may not remember how light bulbs used to work with the filament across there. We had a tape, he had two pieces of wood and a rat tail file probably about this big across. And it is exposed to this field and it starts glowing and turns not only white hot red to white hot and then drops. Interestingly, they went in. A, the boards weren't burned. B, it was cold to pick up, even though it had just gotten to the point where one of the many sorts of effects that had happened.
- [110:24]
Host 2
Cold as in room temperature or cold cold.
- [110:28]
Colonel John Alexander
Pick it up. Okay, it's molten one second and you can pick it up. The other issue was not all of these things were metal. I mean, the idea was maybe it's magnetic, electromagnetic of some kind. And certainly that's what he was using for input. And things sometimes levitate. One we had a member with, Alex Pizarro was the name I was trying to think of. They had in there a piece of PVC and shreds one end of the pvc.
- [111:14]
Host 2
But it wouldn't affect a person or anything organic.
- [111:17]
Colonel John Alexander
I have no idea what it would do. I mean, all we're saying, and this is the problem, no, absolutely no control on any of them. Another one they did. Remember I told you John was looking at Tesla's bench to see what's on it. We're also at a poverty level. This is before people are coming in and funding that we gave. I forget what it was, 20k or something like that wasn't a great amount. But the way he would get, he would go to the junkyard and pick stuff up. Well, one of the things he picked up was the drive shaft and it brought it in and exposed to the field and then took it to BC Hydro. One end of the drive shaft is like case hardened steel and the other is soft as lead. It's the same piece of metal. And all that happened was that it was exposed to John.
- [112:21]
Host 1
So it's rearranging the molecules.
- [112:24]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, the point is you have changes in a piece of a single rod, not the whole thing. And this was true in all cases. But I remember in the PVC one the PVC evaporated. I mean it just wasn't there anymore. Now of course it wasn't in a sealed container where you could find it if it vaporized and be picked up again. John is. There's some personal background, I won't go into it, but these things were definitely happening. So one of the things that happened in the PK arena that I mentioned, metal bending. Jack Hauk had given me some molybdenum rods and these had been extruded and nobody in the metal bending had ever bent the metal rods we gave them. So I had some. So I gave, gave them to John and I got it back and damped us a slight S curve in was just by being exposed to the field.
- [113:35]
Host 2
And this is a very durable metal with a melting point of almost 5,000 degrees.
- [113:40]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, yeah. And we also look to see had somebody gripped it. No.
- [113:46]
Host 2
Is that the piece you brought today? No. Okay.
- [113:49]
Colonel John Alexander
This is one that John sent me. I just happened to bring. I have lots of different one. But look at this being just the size and weight of that. And then that's just from being exposed to his field. And you can see it's just ruptured. Yeah. And why and how, don't know. But again, one of so many different effects that, that you're seeing. This one's obviously clearly metal. There was some, we had wood, we had others that were just twisted where you had, you know, some of it seemed to be soft and screws through it. And wood affected sometimes wood unaffected. Again, totally lacking control.
- [114:37]
Host 2
Did you see it happen in real time?
- [114:40]
Colonel John Alexander
Short answer would be no. What happened was, and our deal was we were doing show and tell. I set it up and went up a number of times and I brought in a team. I had two guys from Los Alamos and three others from one night vision lab and a couple from the inscom. They were working in the science field. So what happened was. Okay, time for show and tell. Right. Showtime. I do everything. You get there early, right? Yeah, I arrive a day early and they're really excited to say, boy, we've got this thing was just levitating. So we've turned it off. Now you got to understand this is terribly. This is a makeshift thing if you will and all kinds of stuff in an uncoordinated way and whatnot. And so I looked at. We look at it levitating. We just turned it off. So everything's the same saying we'll just turn it back on tomorrow when everybody else arrives and turn it back on. The power supply burns up. I mean literally. By the way, one of the key things in all of this was power in all of the entire apparatus was being run on one 220 extension cord. As a matter of fact, one of the naysayers that had been from Leno ended up going to jail later for other reasons. But anyway is the one who. He says oh, they've got this stuff. You see the room. Because we had a single room. There's a huge warehouse kind of facility. And this all was in one little cubicle of it. Well, damned if somebody comes in and we are able to get into. And no, there's no other external equipment that's driving energy into this sort of thing.
- [116:51]
Host 2
Is one plug 220 maybe 10amp fuse.
- [116:55]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Like I say, an extension literally running off an extension cord which had burned up and it turned out they had no spare. They spent the day getting it. By the way, there's some similarities to this on the ranch. And I know Jack Hauk had also worked with John and that is, you know, these anomalies, how things happen. I think I've mentioned what I call the precognitive sentient phenomenon. Now this comes from the ranch. There's an it that knows not only what's going to happen but how we are going to respond before the incident happens. And it is in control. Don't know what it is. That's true. In the ranch we had the same thing. I hadn't identified. I identified that after working at the ranch for a couple years much earlier then. And this gets into, you know, the trickster if you will, which appears in folklore. Loki and Kokopelli and Pan, et cetera.
- [118:09]
Host 2
It has to want to be observed
- [118:12]
Colonel John Alexander
well, but it is. It happened well same we did at the ranch running 24.7photographer and things would happen just outside the same thing here. Jack had the same thing happen. It would happen just outside where the cameras are studying. Sometimes it would happen above this area we were in in Vancouver had a wooden ceiling on it and put stuff up there and things Would kind of move around there too. So you couldn't define it. We thought it was a field effect, but we couldn't define the field by any stretch of imagination.
- [118:53]
Host 2
So did you grab a new extension cord and nothing happened?
- [118:56]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no. The problem was the power supply that was converting it. They found one and we got it. And no, it didn't happen. Now, I interviewed the entire team and five out of the six thought it really did happen. The sixth one was a huge. Not a skeptic. He was sent there to debunk it. He's the one who claimed that, you know, Tom Bearden, okay, He thought that Tom Bearden had snuck in for people who don't know know Tom was working on free energy and all of this.
- [119:38]
Host 2
It's part of the sparky sweet story,
- [119:41]
Colonel John Alexander
but somehow he had snuck in and had set up this system. It was just total nonsense sort of thing. The bad news was, and for reasons unknown, the LANO report was classified. And so then the government's covering it up. Now, the simpler thing would have been say we came, we saw, nothing happened, end of transmission, instead of this convoluted theories that we did end up dealing with. Still in touch with John, you know, today I've got emails from him weekly, certainly, if not day, but never could get under control. And of course, you know, he's done any number of documentaries and things like that where you see the effect and you can say we've observed something happen, but any kind of controls of how we go. And the most perplexing thing again was the range of effects that we saw.
- [120:47]
Host 2
Anything else besides gravity and bending?
- [120:51]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, the heat. The heat and burning and not burning and disintegration of material and, you know,
- [121:03]
Host 2
do you think that there are zero point energy projects?
- [121:08]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's quite different.
- [121:10]
Host 2
Yep.
- [121:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Different question.
- [121:12]
Host 2
You brought up Bearden, you brought up Tom Bearden.
- [121:16]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, Tom was a trip. Knew him pretty well. He told me about how Mossad had invisibility capability and how they would sneak into his house and the ways that he would know that is they would move his keys around or something like that. So now he is revered not with zero point energy, but in the psychotronic community. It was very interesting. The problem we, I found, particularly the scientific community, is he would give these very officious sounding things and then you would find out that certainly basic words, he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity, for instance, that his form of gravity could be different from the way science traditionally thinks about it. Yeah, I knew Tom. This goes back to the. Before. I think he came into the picture after the new mental battlefield or something. No, no, no. I know it was before that, because one of the statements that I put in there that I thought in retrospect I would have been more circumspect. And that was. I said that there were devices whose lethal capability had been demonstrated where I was prevaricating. There was that I really meant there was some insects that died, as opposed that this wasn't designed to mean human. However, when you get into the Soviet research, there were some where you had fatal experience. Sure.
- [123:18]
Host 2
You wrote a letter to, I think it was the Commanding General of Army Futures Command. The commanding General of Army Futures.
- [123:29]
Colonel John Alexander
The Futures Command. Yeah.
- [123:31]
Host 2
Telling him, here's what we found. You should look into it. What were you trying to get reopened there?
- [123:36]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, I wasn't trying to reopen, but I've run into this in several cases. Thought they ought to know what. What we did.
- [123:42]
Host 1
Sure.
- [123:43]
Colonel John Alexander
And I had been contacted previously, but more on the NLP research. And so my thing to them was just going to be, does somebody at least want to know what we did? You know, some of the stuff is still available. And, you know, call him Kelleher. And I was talking to him recently, and he says that we are the immortals. And he's talking about Jacques and Hal and me and Kit, you know, well, getting up there. But the problem with many of these things, You know, just the information is dying out.
- [124:29]
Host 2
Literally everyone's very suspicious of you and Hal and Jacques for living forever. We want to know what deal you made. Could you quickly tell the story about the cells, your white blood cells behind the brick wall? I remember you telling that story somewhere behind the wall. It was a. The National Academy was reviewing some of your work.
- [124:54]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh.
- [124:55]
Host 2
Remember that
- [124:58]
Colonel John Alexander
in great detail.
- [125:01]
Host 2
All right.
- [125:02]
Colonel John Alexander
This gets the work of Cleve Baxter. Cleave was a polygrapher. He actually designed the system. Well, this goes back then, World War II. We had. He was in CIC, Counterintelligence Corps. Had transitioned early as the development of CIA, as he was a polygrapher. And he was very big in astrology, by the way, as well. But he was then initially living in New York. And he had a very basic question. He had a large plant there, and he says, well, I wonder if I pour water into the plant, how long will it take it to show up in the leaves? So he put his GSR sensor on that and whatever happened, but then he left it on. It was just running in his apartment and that. And suddenly started noticing every once it Was hooked up to the polygraph. It was getting signal. Every once in a while, you'd see
- [126:14]
Host 1
a signal from the plant.
- [126:15]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, okay, well. Oh, stuns a mill. The question is, why is this happening? So finally he found out that there was a connection between what was going on in the environment and the plant. So he started by doing things like ripping the plant, and he'd see the thing, and then he'd burn the plant. Then he found out that by thinking about burning or threatening to burn the plant and the plants responding. He calls this primary perception. This is another word Ted Rockwell comes back in as an introduction point.
- [126:59]
Guest or Additional Commentator
So
- [127:02]
Colonel John Alexander
anyway, I'm trying to think of what all of the sequence. This was quite a while ago. So Cleve has now got his shop in San Diego, and one of the things that he does is he starts using oral leukocytes, which are white cells from the mouth. And they would use a centrifuge, but I'll confuse it. So the device was that we have electrodes into the oral leukocytes. This thing is in a cage, Faraday cage, shielded, and all of that. And they would. How the cells would respond to it. We found out. Well, let me back up. He had done some work before that on things like brine shrimp. And he had pots there, and he would keep the brine shrimp. And at an undetermined time, the shrimp would dump into boiling water and kill the shrimp. And sure enough, you know, shrimp are responding. He also did some interesting work with yogurts and whatnot, because there's living organisms in the yogurt. So the next step up was using the oral leukocytes, because now attached to a single individual. And their experiment was that you'd have. The donor would come in, and then they would agree to watch a certain TV program. It was one where you expect some sort of violent thing, but you don't know when or what the event is going to be. And sure enough, you started seeing, because they would tape the program and then put it with it, and you'd see a violent event occurs. The thing starts, you know, reflecting from the leukocytes. Yeah. Okay. Our interest. You got to remember the Red Brigade and General Dozier is captured. So we had people that were on, and the question is, you know, can we communicate, or can we start with simple things, alive or not alive. Now, I had, in military perspective, looked at this too. And the idea was, we'll put capsules in or something. You know, they could transmit. Response was probably not a good idea, because if it's suspected, they'll just cut until they find it.
- [129:35]
Host 2
Yeah, that's true.
- [129:36]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. So that wasn't. But however, you know, now looking at it from externally, saying, you know, can we either communicate or can we just get an idea of life? So that was the genesis of looking at it from military perspective. And why, What happened? I had done a series. Well, I had Cleave under contract. Interesting side story here. I built my own device and it was interesting. I took a senior scientist from night vision lab with me out there and said, you know, this is with permission, so I'm not stealing anything from him. And we look at it and I said, well, can you build it? He says, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. But he says, look, I have cut this much out of the world for me and you can reorganize things in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear it. Pretty straightforward, honest. Now, he could have screwed me any number of ways, just one loose wire or something, but he didn't. But you said, there's a piece missing. And I said, well, that's the piece I'm going to worry about. This is the consciousness aspect of it. So anyway, we ran a series of experiments. Experiments with this. Fast forward a bit. It must be 87 time frame. Max Thurman is vice chief of staff of the army and he decides to look into all this weirdness. So he puts. Puts together a scientific panel from the National Research Council to evaluate all of these things. And I appeared before him several times. In fact, one of the things that bothered me is they had a whole series of behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know Bob John from Princeton. Okay, J A H N John. He is the dean. Well, yeah, then the dean of school of Engineering at Princeton, who is a central figure in all this because he had independently replicated, you know, that was doing the remote viewing experiments. And he had a big thing on psychokinesis and all of that, impeccable credentials and whatnot. And we had tried to get Bob, you know, added to it, you know, my admonition to the group, you're nice guys, but, you know, where are the physical scientists? Because that's where the experimentation is going to. They did have Ray Hyman on there, if you know Ray. And all for the audience, a founding member of Psychops, you know, the skeptics and whatnot. Oh, well, a bit of a side. He came to me, he actually had clearances, vanilla secret, but came and looked the stuff I had in the Safe. By this time, I'm director of Advanced System Concepts for what was then the Army Laboratory Command no longer exists. But I had some stuff in the safe and able to show them the Soviet work and all that. And of course, then they're asking Exper. You know, well, how one of the controls with us. I said, you understand how we. This is from spies, right? We are not getting there, you know, reports or something on it. His comment was, I didn't realize there was so much.
- [133:39]
Host 2
There's so much.
- [133:41]
Colonel John Alexander
But so with the report, this committee has set up National Research Council. And I suggested we take them to Cleaves Lab because that is pretty damn reliable, by the way. One of the things that happened I thought was interesting was that, as I said, he's a polygrapher. So we set up an experiment with me and said, okay, I'll. We'll let. What I found was I could beat the polygraph. Couldn't beat the white cells.
- [134:22]
Host 2
You couldn't beat those.
- [134:23]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And I let them screw around a bit, you know, personal matters and things like that. So that was really interesting. It shows the connection between. Even though my white cells are separated in another room and shielded, et cetera. So.
- [134:43]
Host 2
And you were affecting the blood cells.
- [134:46]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, I was doing it. You know, I'm animal one. But I was, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so, by the way, back to your futures command. You know, this is what I was trying to sell. We did this stuff. Will somebody come and look? At least, you know, check the records. So anyway, we set up and the board is going to meet in San Diego. So I said, well, good thing. We'll bring. Take them to Cleveland. So what happens is, again, you want to know what's working today. Not at work today. Yesterday. So I arrived several hours early. Well, I've been. I was already arrived in San Diego, but arrived. And I donate cells just to make sure this thing is up and running. And frankly, we forget about it. And so what happens is the panel arrives and we take two of their people go Steve White, the lab assistant, and they're going to donate the cells. One's donating, one observing, and we take the rest of them to the kind of a classroom, basically. And we've agreed that Cleve is going to give the background in history. I'm going to get up and say, by the way, I've independently replicated this and here's that. Now, Cleve is one of these people. When you say what time you get the history of chronometers and he was going on, on and going like, God, I can tell they're getting edgy and whatnot. So finally it comes my turn to tell them that the world is not built the way they think it is. So I start talking and about 90 seconds later, Dave runs into the room, says, what happened 90 seconds ago? And I said, well, that's when I started talking to them. And internally, yes, I'm saying telling them National Academy of Science, you know, their view is wrong, is emotionally stimulating.
- [136:58]
Host 2
Yes.
- [136:59]
Colonel John Alexander
And so anyway, we go over and we see. I mean, this thing he has stoppers on, we're getting a tenth of a millivolt. But it is just. By the way, I've got this tape.
- [137:10]
Host 2
Oh, you do?
- [137:10]
Colonel John Alexander
I still. Yeah. What happened is that Ray Hyman is the one who ran over and looked and ripped it off. Now what's interesting is when. When the report comes out, not a word on this.
- [137:24]
Host 2
No.
- [137:25]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. The only thing that they thought was useful or potentially useful because they had looked at remote viewing. I knew they had been, but they had been curtailed. Most of the classified stuff was not available to them in that. But they had agreed that NLP had some. Potentially some use. But the rest of the. The stuff we were doing were just nonsense. And I say on this particular area doesn't. Yeah, not. Not a word about you. It happened right in, you know, the white crow flew right in front of you.
- [137:58]
Host 2
And CIA wasn't interested in this. Was CIA interested?
- [138:03]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, I mean, I knew, kid, but these are all what you find out. And this, by the way, gets deeply into the UFO area. A lot of. Lot more of its personal interest. And people say, you know, if you'll know the certain names keep. They do recurring throughout, even though some of us have different views on it. But yeah, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that become key in all of these things. Well, we were not publishing, you know, reports on this is still what you'd call basic research on there, but we definitely showed the efficacy of it and a relationship that could be tailored at a distance between the cells. And again, from the issue where we're thinking of going is, you know, is there something we can do with foreign diplomats, for instance, where we keep some kind of sample on hand and if something happens, you pull it out and, you know, try to communicate again, simple things like are you alive or dead? Which would change a lot of what your response would be. What are you willing to risk?
- [139:22]
Host 2
Because your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they?
- [139:27]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, there is one instance it was more like 50. And now I asked Kleeb about it and he says the problem that you really probably can't tell because you'd have to get almost into interstellar distances. I mean, you know, the particles and whatnot. What's the distance and because we're dealing with things and speed and whatnot. By the way, getting back to Chris, an experiment experiment that was done with him in down at Monroe in a sealed unit and yet he's doing which I think shows that this isn't electromagnetic, you know, the consciousness, but this is, you know, we don't understand a lot more than we do understand right. In these areas. Like I say that what happened after that is when the shit hit the fan back with, you know, and Bert was forced into retirement and all of that. So a lot of it was curtailed and we Vipers went to other areas.
- [140:37]
Host 2
Well, speaking of UFOs, can you talk about advanced theoretical physics and what you're. What you're doing there?
- [140:48]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, yeah, had put together a group, well, interagency group. My initial hypothesis. I was working with another guy who kind of faded out and doesn't want to be named, but it was somebody who worked at Lockheed skunk work. The hypothesis was a Roswell's real, that there was something big going on and this is something that still emerges that people want to get the word out. So we put the group together and it was at the TSSCI level. Literally old boys had to know them. Had almost all of the information intelligence community, the major players certainly and the aerospace industry and people who were interested and got together and we're using BDM facilities. Interesting. I got to the Joe Battock was the B of BDM Burt, by the way, in this time he also because he had. When he retired, he went and became vice president for Intelligence at bdm. So we had their facilities who we could use. Had put it together. This is the early days of FOIA as well. And one of the things that surprised people who created FOIA was the number of requests that they got for UFOs. So that's why I came up with the name Advancing. I think nobody's going to ask for.
- [142:41]
Host 2
You were dodging FOIA files on it.
- [142:44]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, sure, absolutely. And you know, it was well, let's see where this goes. We had several meetings, by the way. One requirement that did not hold was no records. So, you know, the intent was that there wouldn't be any written records. Now eventually I had briefings that I used from on and on.
- [143:11]
Host 2
Is this declassified at this this is declassified by now. Yeah, this is declassified.
- [143:17]
Colonel John Alexander
It never was.
- [143:18]
Host 2
Never was classified.
- [143:19]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, yeah, like I say, this is not official.
- [143:24]
Host 2
Right.
- [143:25]
Colonel John Alexander
By the way, one of the things that I, I point out, this is a, and if you see with OS app and aatip and that most of these come from the bottom up.
- [143:35]
Host 2
Yep.
- [143:36]
Colonel John Alexander
This is not ones where, you know, the hierarchy says do this and it comes down. We'll probably get into some of the people that were involved. But it was, you know, so we said our supposition was if we do this, certainly going to get noticed at some point. And people come and slap our hands and say don't do that. Which never did happen.
- [144:06]
Host 2
What was when you spun up that group, what were you trying to find?
- [144:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, a, we were still dealing with hard craft kinds of things that were going on and who would be involved and you know, if there was a project. Now I, eventually I moved up the food chain higher and higher and I did brief or interact with the director or deputy director of all of those three letter agencies. And the story I tell, one of the most interesting ones, the global agency, and by the way, the answer was always the same, was we don't do that. And then, but the guy says, a, we don't do that. There's no requirements to even report on it. B, I'll tell you about the ones I saw. So here's a guy who's now head of agency, lots of resources, has had personal experience and he went back into things that he had seen years before. So they were flying around and doing things I knew we didn't have the, the capability for, but that did not transition to is. So I'll put together a small group to go look for it. These are the kinds of things that run counter to the quote, legacy program.
- [145:28]
Host 2
Yep.
- [145:29]
Colonel John Alexander
Could they have lied to me? Quite possibly everybody, you know, and these weren't like a week apart going down, people would call and all of that's happened over years.
- [145:44]
Host 2
So you didn't believe in a retrieval program. I guess until Grush and that those group came forward. Right.
- [145:51]
Colonel John Alexander
Until what?
- [145:51]
Host 2
Until David Grush and some of those other guys. Because you've changed a little bit. Yes.
- [146:00]
Colonel John Alexander
This is where I get to my, my data does not match.
- [146:04]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [146:05]
Colonel John Alexander
And in fact, as you know, I've dealt with quite a few of the senior folks in that have not met Grusch, respect him and his background in that the twins just don't go together.
- [146:22]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [146:23]
Colonel John Alexander
And I've told you now the agencies, and fast forward a bit, we decide to Transition to a formal funded program. So where's the logical place to go is sdi. SDI at the time is, you know, the biggest program in defense. It's 5 billion at the time. Kind of uniquely. A meeting is set up with me and I have an entourage going in and meet with General Abramson who three star commander of sdi. And my experience was quite different. We walked in and introduced who's the agencies involved and all of that. And So I started UFO 101. And he goes, wait, wait, wait, who are you guys really? I mean this to me is like a game deer caught in the headlights. And I don't think he was faking. Could have been if it was, it was quite an act. Went around the room in different agencies. NSA was one that a guy gave his stuff and the thing that stunned me there was we were giving him the Soviet data and he says, where did you get that? He was like, he did not understand our intercept capability. That got scary because it was in, you know, can they do that? And I said, yeah, we think they're pretty good at it. Fast forward this goes on an hour or two. We finally get to the end and I say, you know, we'd like to get blessing and a formal program and goes, I can't touch this. He says, if I get caught doing this, I will just lose all credibility and friends. So the point was, I don't believe in fact, he went on to say, look, you got my attention. I'm an old fighter pilot and you got my attention. And we are soon going to be monitoring more of space than has ever been done before. If you can tell me what to look for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in. But if I get caught doing this and this is where, you know, the people, who else, I just do not understand the Pentagon. In fact, some of the key people, and I've told them take a decade off and go learn how the system works because it is terribly complex, it is terribly competitive. And that includes in the black world as well as the white world and everybody. Like I said, one of my favorite comments was I'm going to go find the money when I was working in the building. And you go, there are gnomes out there with pots of gold or something that you go, what means you're going to steal it from somebody else's program or find it. You have to reprogram the funds. And that occurs in the black world, just as it does in, in the white world. He did lose a billion dollars. He did in funding. But that's from other. But the point was. His point was well people because his program was so big and visible that you know everybody looking for money. Well where do you look? Because people who have money, they're the banks. And he did. And it was shortly after that I got a very and I am convinced unrelated call that says we want you to move to a new assignment. And it was one you had to be a colonel and breathe. And I said you got to be me. I am running the highest high tech stuff in the military and you want me to go do what? And yeah, war. General Stilwell came back into the program as he was a supporter. We didn't cover this. He had intervened before. Another side story about how we. How I ended up in INSCOM actually. And before that was that the new Mental Battlefield article had come out. I had attended a couple of conferences in the Washington area and weird stuff and all that. And there was a colonel's wife who was running one of them, Jean Eke and she was friends with the General Stillwell's wife. Stilwell is now a retired four star who's the number two guy in the Pentagon. So, so what happens was a meeting gets up and I remember I'm a munchkin down literally in the bowels of the Pentagon. So a meeting is set up for because of new middle of battlefield I'm supposed to go meet with him. So at about 12:30 this particular day. Now what's unique here? You know munchkins do not go see SecDef and Deputy SecDef.
- [151:58]
Host 2
No.
- [151:58]
Colonel John Alexander
Without a head bobber. You know flag officers who agree that didn't happen. That was one on one me and him.
- [152:06]
Host 2
Were you nervous about what does the general want? Or you knew what he wanted.
- [152:11]
Colonel John Alexander
This was just a generic coming and talk to him. But this had been set up again through the wives and all of that. So anyway I went up and we had a very interesting conversation. He says well who do you work for? I work for General Treffery and he was the inspector general and blah blah. Okay, well this is really interesting. Thank you. And I left. I said well that was interesting. I go back down to my office about 1 o' clock and about 4:15 the chief of staff of the IG comes in and says tomorrow morning you don't work here anymore.
- [152:46]
Host 2
That was that.
- [152:48]
Colonel John Alexander
He had moved me.
- [152:50]
Host 2
So you had to take that assignment. You couldn't refuse it.
- [152:52]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, Another war story. A friend of mine who had been at, who had worked at the military personnel center and I bumped into him in the Pentagon one day. And he's looking, He's. This is years later, he says, you know, I had to keep your file in my desk drawer because we had nowhere to put it.
- [153:20]
Host 1
Right.
- [153:21]
Colonel John Alexander
You know, like I said, the promotion thing. This I got handed from the time. Yeah. I made major. Yeah. On. I was never assigned by the system again until they pissed me off and I said, thanks. And then Los Alamos came along,
- [153:43]
Host 2
and then NIDS came along. Can you.
- [153:46]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's two iterations.
- [153:48]
Host 2
Yes.
- [153:49]
Colonel John Alexander
That's after Los Alamos.
- [153:50]
Host 2
And so can you talk about that? That Sunday morning in your kitchen? I think. How. How was there? Jacques was there, and you get a phone call from Bob.
- [153:59]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's another coincidence, right? If you will. Yeah. I was working at Los Alamos. I lived in Santa Fe. Had a meeting with a number of people in Jacqueline Hal were two of them. I forget who all was there, but it's Sunday morning, so we're getting ready to take people back to Albuquerque for the flights. And the phone rings and it's, hi, I'm Bob Bigelow. I've heard about you. Are there any areas that might be of interest? The rest they say is kind of. As a matter of fact, there was a guy who did get funded, who was there. Ferris Williams, had since died, but who got an independent, you know, project. Now, this is before NIDS and all of that. In fact, we came over and we went to the Santa Fe Institute, looked at, he said, maybe once. And, well, Marigold Mon is kind of the guy at Santa Fe Institute. This is chaos area that they're working. And I had other friends who were supportive, who worked with them. Probably not a good fit. And then he decided we would create NIDs, but he wanted to be in Las Vegas. And that's what brought me here.
- [155:25]
Host 2
What turned Bob onto Skinwalker Ranch? How did he learn about that?
- [155:32]
Colonel John Alexander
There were some articles, as far as I know, there were some articles that were published probably in Deseret News and about Sherman's and the ranch and that exactly how he made contact, I don't know. I was with him the day that he physically bought the ranch, though, and. First one to spend the night. You were the first again of the NIDS people. I mean, obviously, Terry and Gwen were staying there, and it is a very, very strange place, no doubt about that. I mean, the incidents that happened. Having said that, I'm a bit of a digression. Lost a bubble there a minute.
- [156:23]
Host 2
That's right. I have plenty more. Plenty more questions that first night, I think you said nothing happened. Nothing happened the first time.
- [156:32]
Colonel John Alexander
Nothing unique happened.
- [156:34]
Host 2
No, but eventually you saw some things there.
- [156:37]
Colonel John Alexander
I. This is one of the questions that comes up by the way it translates to Chris as well, because one of the things I asked him, is it the place or is it the person?
- [156:50]
Host 2
I was going to ask you that.
- [156:52]
Colonel John Alexander
And we have, you know, lots of strange things have happened around me, but as far as, you know. Well, I have seen some things and all that, but they had tend to be. I tend to be more of a catalyst, if you will. Jesse Ventura's who I was thinking of.
- [157:16]
Host 2
That's right.
- [157:17]
Colonel John Alexander
That he came in and interviewed me and was interested. He said, well, can I go up there and do that? No, A, probably not. But B, you'd probably be bored because the problem is that these amazing incidents have happened. But it's not like every night, you know, they go out, oh, tonight we're going to have XYZ happen. Contrary to the program. One of the reasons they shoot rockets is because they got, you know, an incident, something to photograph. But yeah, but some of the things that did happen just absolutely beyond belief.
- [158:02]
Host 2
For example, is this baby goat or is it a baby calf?
- [158:07]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, the calf is one. What that particular incident is that they. Terry's got at the ranch. Terry stayed on cabbing season and he walks out. He goes out and people are familiar with the ranch now, perfectly flat, the escarpment to the north and the trees further out. Finds a newborn calf and tags it in ways that they tag it to identify it to the mother. Drives across the again, wide open field, 10 o', clock, bright sunny day, etc. And he finds another newborn calf and he tags it and weighs it and he comes back, calf one's dead, mother's going out of his mind. There's a huge amount of stuff is just missing from the animal. Yeah, it's been eviscerated, exsanguinated. And you know, here where the tag was, was cut off. Looks like a laser cut and all of that. The science board looked at. We had Terry come in. Well, George o' Nett was working with. It was the DMV and flown up that day. We had Terry secure the sign, got our vet on site and all of that. People said, well, the exsanguination blood went into the ground. I had suggested him. They go to nearby slaughterhouse, get blood and come back and poured it on the ground. And weeks later you'd say, you know, blood was poured on the ground here.
- [159:47]
Host 2
Yep.
- [159:48]
Colonel John Alexander
So there's no way that this went the Science board sab that as you know, world class sorts of folks, Hal and Jock and Kit and all of them are involved there on the, on the website where they were, was that whatever happened didn't happen there. Wow. Now how do you explain that Again, we know in our reality, we know the elapsed time 45 minutes ish bright sunny day. We looked at all of the possibilities of how predators kill and that none of them do anything like this.
- [160:31]
Host 2
You had cameras on there yet? You had cameras yet?
- [160:37]
Colonel John Alexander
Not in that area, no.
- [160:38]
Host 2
Okay.
- [160:39]
Colonel John Alexander
No. And now I've got to say Brandon, of course has put in a lot more sensors and doing 24, seven, far more than we did. Not exactly sure of the sequencing on that because we did have cameras that were facing near what they now call a command center looking to the west. And there is one of the most interesting incidents to me. You've got you know, two cameras here, two cameras in front of us. So the ones in front you can see, you have cameras that are up about 20ft high, comes down about half a roll of duct tape holding them in PVC going back into, you know, been recording. So you know when recording and what happens is in the front cameras the wires are pulled loose up at the top. You come down, the PVC is pulled out. There's about 3 foot chunk of wire that's just missing from this. Now what was really interesting about it, this was kind of early evening and it just happens that the cattle at that time were right around the post. And we know that if anybody approaches the cattle, they would scatter. Nothing happens. The other thing is this camera that's looking straight at it and we have a second or third time lapse photography on it. Nothing. How did all of this stuff happen and not get recorded?
- [162:21]
Host 2
Because it doesn't want to be recorded?
- [162:24]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, like I say, it's a very, very strange place. And they have had many more incidents, but it's not like it's a daily thing. It's not like you can go, oh Brandon, now if you go up, you have to sign literally life releases and, and all of that to go on. I think his people, I think the staff people who work for him are really good.
- [162:58]
Host 2
You mentioned something about precognitive with the ranch. Does that mean that the future exists and can be read or does that mean they can sense your intent?
- [163:11]
Colonel John Alexander
Two different questions and you say they.
- [163:15]
Host 2
I don't know it.
- [163:16]
Colonel John Alexander
I'm not. Yeah, well I, that's why I use the it and I have no idea how to find it. When you get into theoretical aspects that is it possible that the past, present and future are all concurrent? So it's not a. You know. And it gets into almost imponderable. I actually use the blood one because it seemed to know that we would bore the blood and you know, before this sort of become another conundrum. Yeah, yeah. More and more possibilities that just get to be terribly, terribly complex and hard to. The issue of what we do see in this. And I think all of these phenomena are that our concept of time is wrong as we know it, as we experience it, as opposed to what time may or may not be.
- [164:24]
Host 2
Because there's intent with these actions, but we don't know what it wants. She seems to want to mess with us.
- [164:32]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, but you mentioned something I think is bigger and that's issue of intent in all of these areas. For people who become psychic or work with these things, intention seems to impact and maybe precipitate reality. But then how can that happen in the future if it's happening concurrently?
- [164:57]
Host 2
That's interesting. Any hitchhiker effect with you and some of this stuff.
- [165:06]
Colonel John Alexander
You've seen my slide, I guess on.
- [165:08]
Host 2
I have.
- [165:09]
Colonel John Alexander
And I think that's bigger. The answer for me is no with others, just so what people know what we're talking about. There are many reports of people who have left the ranch and started having strange experiences. And the hitchhikers specifically refers to beings or entities or something as well as a number of psychic kinds of events that have happened. I do know that many of them happen the slide that I use. And I think this gets to be problematic when you get to. How are you going to study this, particularly from a government's perspective. We started on this. I don't think governments. I don't see how they can be involved with these sorts of things. It's one thing for you to study flying saucers, widgets, even orbs and that to study werewolves is something quite different. The werewolf story is real. Individual may choose to come forward. I have met him.
- [166:25]
Host 2
You met the werewolf?
- [166:27]
Colonel John Alexander
No, I met the person at the person who was a very senior individual living in the Washington area who had visited the ranch and wife looked out and standing on hind legs in the backyard with red eyes as a werewolf. And they go running off on, you know, Bank Lake. How do you. I think from a political perspective it would be suicide to go in. Of course, enough to say I want to spend money to study UFOs and hard widgets. And now we're making the case that it's even Permissible. That is one of the advantages that has come forward is making it permissible to study these things. But to now say I'm also going to sell a whole field of cryptozoology. Gollum for instance talks about being. This is in skinwalkers in the Pentagon, but talks about a dinosaur small but a dinosaur walking by and that. And you've seen in the program the whole dire wolf thing that have been extinct for 10,000 years. And so how do you justify or should. Is this the proper role for government? I think this is where governments kind of got a bow. This is not what governments are to govern and they are to do certain specific tasks in that. One of the issues that you brought up in other broadcasts, it has to do with the Department of Defense. Something is. I think it's the wrong question. And also what you have to remember is it is the Department of Defense. By the way, I'm guilty on this too. In my UFO book I've said there are two. Two major issues. One was defense, the other was air safety. But the issue of, you know, saying no advanced technology couldn't make that sort of case do. The plus side is again this has understanding how governments work. Actually DoD would find this great because this is how you justify. Now we used to you know, hypothesize the Soviet days. You know the. What's the. What's the Soviet threat and all that you're always projecting of threats. Well if this is a threat in a way that's good because that can justify funding.
- [169:13]
Host 2
Yep. You need a boogeyman.
- [169:15]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Oh always. We used to. We used to hypothesize what we call FST3 which was Future Soviet Tank 3. Now Future Soviet Tank 1 turned out to be the T90, you know that did. But if you looked at the capabilities that we were giving to 2 and 3 which means I need more money to do more research. Maybe they can do that. I mean never ending cycle. But for them to say they want it now, of course that's what they do. They Department of Defense is supposed to defend from threats. So we define basically everything as a threat.
- [169:57]
Host 2
Is that why the Air Force was at the ranch?
- [170:00]
Colonel John Alexander
I don't believe they were.
- [170:02]
Host 2
I thought they were there for four years. You don't think so Air Force? Yeah,
- [170:09]
Colonel John Alexander
but I used to get an inner service rivalry but I found them the most difficult to work with on
- [170:19]
Host 2
this topic for sure.
- [170:20]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. No, no. They would classify the words electromagnetic. I ran into of some of this between Kirtland and Los Alamos and whatnot the infamous Kirtland. Yeah. Not. Yeah, but again the problem. One of the things that I think is going to happen with Arrow, for instance, is my experience in relations. I personally had survived a lot of weird things and all of that accident, but eventually got shown the door.
- [171:01]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [171:01]
Colonel John Alexander
As well. This is not what you'd call career enhancing.
- [171:06]
Host 2
No.
- [171:07]
Colonel John Alexander
If you're going to move up any of these system certain things you're supposed to do and gates and whatnot. This is not one of them.
- [171:17]
Host 2
You mentioned about. They don't want to fund werewolves. Is this a naming problem? You know, UFOs? No. UAPs. Yes.
- [171:24]
Colonel John Alexander
No. UAPs changes. And it does extrapolate a bit in the broader phenomena. The one you brought up with Jeremy on underwater, for instance. And I hope you get Tim Gallaudet in. Talk about, you know, the underwater aspects of this, which we've known forever. But yeah, the name fits better. UFOs did come with baggage, no doubt about that. Because objects weren't all flying. The downside though is you broaden that too much. And I believe Lou ran into this with funding in atap because they were trying to do it unclassified and that. And people say I do advance threats.
- [172:18]
Host 2
Sure.
- [172:20]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. Again, this gets back to not understanding. The funding cycles are absolutely vicious.
- [172:29]
Host 2
Before I get into death and consciousness, I just wanted to remind us that you wanted to read a passage from your book at some point. So don't let me forget.
- [172:38]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, okay, we can.
- [172:40]
Host 2
Unless you want. Unless you want to fire it off now.
- [172:42]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, might as well. It is in the end. Well, by the way, the first line that I wrote in the book is UFOs are real. So that's the starting point. And it is clear the universe is far more complex than we ever imagined. We are not close to solving the enigmas posed by UFOs. Rather, we are still on the front end of defining the fundamental issues and boundaries and the notion that we're going to get quick answers or something.
- [173:17]
Host 2
No.
- [173:17]
Colonel John Alexander
Or that there is, I guess the one thing I would disagree with in the Secret of Skinwalker Ranch is the secret. And I would make it secrets. I mean, it's not that simple. Whatever. Because there are so many different things going on there and in other places as well.
- [173:38]
Host 2
I guess we're part of that same consciousness, that whatever's doing weird things at the ranch, we're all part of that. Again, it seems like a dark force.
- [173:48]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, is it dark? Where it gets terribly difficult to contemplate is the notion of that everything is one, that you and I Are not separated. I think one of the greatest illusions is the illusion of. Of separation. But it's very hard to contemplate how we can be the same and yet different. I heard you mention the other one, end of war. I'm dealing with some folks, young ladies now, who are developing a program that they hope to raise consciousness in general population. And how you explain this in turn, it is terribly, almost incomprehensible to begin with. Is one of the reasons things I like about Eben Alexander's books on it is he talks about these levels of complexity and impossible for us. But if we are all one, you take Larry Dossey's you know, you know, not non local reality. And certainly things like war make absolutely no sense whatever. And you hear this, you know, you're. By doing bad things, you're harming yourself. Is just hard to right rectify from the physical perspective. That's true that we live in today. I would also mention that if you look at the Greek, one of our problems, they say the answer is love. Kind of. What does that mean? Is that The Greeks had 12 different words for various forms of love. So you know, that's not a catch. All that's going to be useful.
- [175:45]
Host 2
No. Tell me about that eighth night when you were in a tent in Siberia for a bunch of nights. Night number eight was weird.
- [175:58]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, actually when we had been. Well, no, we were in Mongolia and near the Siberian border. We had been up right on the. Where we were chasing reindeer. Shaman have dealt with shamans all over the world.
- [176:11]
Host 2
What's a reindeer shaman?
- [176:14]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, they're the people that herd reindeers. I mean like we have cattle, they have reindeer.
- [176:21]
Host 2
Oh, I thought it was something. They turned into reindeers at night or something.
- [176:25]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no, no, no, no. The. The people live with reindeer. Very unique area. We had the backstory here. We flew to Ulaanbaatar, which is interesting. You fly into Genghis Khan airport and stayed at Genghis Khan Hotel and etc. Then we flew. I didn't know that Ulaanbaatar to Maroon, which is a small city west by the way. Mongolia is a big place, three times the size of France. And then. Then we got in a Land Rover, drove north for. On a road for about an hour, paved road. All of a sudden turned left and drove into the mountain. It was like driving into the Rockies without a road. And we did that for kind of a number of days. This particular incident, we had driven cross country. We were living at a small tent. And the point is we could turn it every day upside down. Shake it out and clear it. Pop up. There were three tents. My wife and I were in one. The driver and guides. The others. A whole bunch of other stuff that I'm trying to fit into this.
- [177:54]
Host 2
Take your time.
- [177:55]
Colonel John Alexander
Whole trip. Just an amazing experience. So anyway, we this particular. We adult have to look up the shaman's name. That had been with doing a healing thing. We had just come back. We had gone up Shaman ball. No bold is. Is a different one. Okay. He's one that we were. The thing precipitates out. It was rolling. I almost brought that along. I. I do have these things. I keep them in the safe because they tend to disappear if you don't have a bold. We had seen going in. See, then we had stopped and we had gone on horseback. The trucks couldn't go any farther. We were up. We went in two days. Two days in 2000. Right on. Now the point here in Siberia, they don't even know where the border is. Okay. This is remote. We're talking really remote, remote areas. But we had come back and we were sleeping on the Cesco River. And like I say, my wife and I, we have bed mats on there. Wake up the next morning. Lying between the two mats is a 50 pence Australian coin.
- [179:30]
Host 2
You didn't bring that in?
- [179:32]
Colonel John Alexander
No, but. And I don't believe any people went in the night and threw one in or something like that. You're up on, like I say, near. Near Siberia. And here appears a 50 pence Australian coin.
- [179:48]
Host 2
What do you think that meant?
- [179:50]
Colonel John Alexander
It meant there was a 50 pence Australian coin. And I have no idea how it showed up there.
- [179:57]
Host 2
What were you doing out in the wilderness? What were you looking for?
- [180:02]
Colonel John Alexander
The reindeer Shaman. Okay, yeah, if we're going to get into it. My wife's a devotee with ayahuasca and we have dealt with shamans over the world. This was a trip that was afforded us. Again, we're the only people, the only foreigners that are involved and had a guide who knew where they were. Now you have to know where they are because they. They follow the reindeer. The reindeer and this. It was getting warm and one of the problems was that they would go up and lie down on the glaciers. There were small glaciers all over the place. We walked over them and that. And yeah, we had set up several ceremonies that were going. It was very interesting. This is where a UFO connection comes in. We got up there and they live in like teepees that are all separate, by the way. One of the things the Chinese have done is they get solar panels and things, so you get a little bit of electricity and whatnot. Well, it was interesting that they tended to be stay in their individual teepees. And I'm walking by one and I hear somebody speaking English. That's weird. So go in and found out of the woman. Well, she's native. She lives there. She used to live in Colorado. Had been there long enough, so scared the crap. It turns out it scared the crap out of our guide because they thought she was a witch and could bewitch them and whatnot.
- [181:56]
Host 2
Why did they think that?
- [181:59]
Colonel John Alexander
It was part of the folklore. Okay, why? I know it's the why files, but why just doesn't apply in some of these cases. So, anyway, I started talking to her and I asked her about UFOs, and she told me a whole story about how this valley used to be kind of an alleyway, and, you know, they would see them on a consistent basis. Now, this is an area that, you know, we're there late, late summer, but gets sealed off. I mean, once you're in, you're. You're there for the duration, kind of like Antarctica or something. But you don't travel in and out. In fact, it was interesting because I'd asked her why you lived in Colorado and you're now, you know, living here full time. And. Yeah. Given up on Western society in that, but did say no. There was a period in which there were lots of UFOs coming to the valley and they would see them. Kind of a routine matter.
- [183:12]
Host 2
Wow. Were they craft or orbs?
- [183:14]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, this is where these were. Craft things that they would see. Yeah.
- [183:18]
Host 2
Wow.
- [183:18]
Colonel John Alexander
By the way, you know. Well, I think you hit things I mentioned earlier is what do you mean by a ufo, Right. And addition of orbs is, you know, fairly new wrinkle to it. And the question of whether you should. And it gets into consciousness and orbs and all of that. But no, this was a traditional craft. One of the things that heard you and Jeremy mentioning it was what's happened over time is that, you see, why do you see different ones and different kinds of things? And going back in the 1800s with air ships, literally, and people dropping anchors and talking and all of that. And it does seem. But this, I think, reverts to this issue of consciousness, whereas our consciousness as to what it is, and in my view, what it seems to do is stay a step ahead of where we are, but not beyond comprehension.
- [184:23]
Host 2
Right. Like orbs is the newest thing, but in another generation, could be something different. So you were looking for shaman. I've heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and you're not a fan of it.
- [184:36]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah.
- [184:37]
Host 2
What did you see when you were in there?
- [184:39]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, the psychedelics are absolutely brilliant. There's no doubt.
- [184:48]
Host 2
Can confirm. I can confirm that.
- [184:50]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, okay. Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca. And are you familiar with Santa Daimy? Sonodaime is a religion based on it and ayahuasca is the substance that's going with it. We may get down to what we did in Curtiba in southern Brazil as well. Most of our stuff is in the Amazon, in Iquitos, and have also been in Ecuador. First of all, this is never going to become, you know, a recreational drug.
- [185:27]
Host 2
No.
- [185:28]
Colonel John Alexander
The side effects that come along are significant. Politely. And you also. Victoria has learned how to work with this. Suggest the first few times that. That you, you know, are mostly, gee, golly, look at this. You know, the right things and all that. But what's most interesting with her, this is mostly secondhand. What would happen, by the way, at these ceremonies is that I would normally. I've only tried a couple times, used it once. Another time was Santa Daime in Brazil. But being the one who was not drugged, I would run all those recorders because I had the manual dexterity laptop to function with it. I can say that in my view, psychopharmacology does not address the issue that's involved. I have seen people take small amounts and have transformational experiences. I've seen them take huge amounts and have no effect whatsoever. Gets back to intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to do it, by the way, a word of caution out there really do. If you're going to do this, know the shaman or with whom you're working because. Yeah. And particularly as it has gotten popular that there are some less than scrupulous folks, particularly for women in there, because. But you really do need. Having said that, and I do see there are now talking about someone ptsd, you know, some research going into it. You know, Sean and them talk about using Abigail. That surprised me a bit. But under controlled conditions, the stuff from Africa, that shit will kill you.
- [187:35]
Host 2
Oh, yeah.
- [187:36]
Colonel John Alexander
If you're not careful. And one of the problems with all of these are there's no quality control. And I found that each shaman kind of has their own recipe and they kind of put stuff together and they look at. Well, and the same with dosage. They look at you and say, well, here's the amount you need. And.
- [188:00]
Host 2
Yeah, I would Recommend going to like Elysium or with a doctor.
- [188:05]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, yeah, this is not to be taken lightly, but I do think there are effects that, you know. And ptsd. Who was it? This was life. She was there with the guys we do with Ron Wheelock, who's known as the gringo shaman down in Iquito. Interestingly, one of the few that have not jacked up prices and all that has become better known. I was going to tell you Victoria's experience, the most experience she had a world that goes to and was recognized and whatnot. The most amazing thing though was not on drugs but at home here in Vegas. And they came here who she saw
- [189:01]
Host 2
in the DMT world came to Vegas.
- [189:03]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, well, right.
- [189:05]
Host 2
Wherever.
- [189:06]
Colonel John Alexander
This is a mental state.
- [189:08]
Host 2
What did she see?
- [189:10]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, just that, you know, they were coming apparently asking for help and. But again, this is a mental, just not a physical being showing up. Right. And showing there. By the way, the most unusual thing that I saw, we were at, you know, contemplate. Okay. These are African voodoo ceremonies and all that. And we had gone. I've gone to several, but Ombuda and Condomlay or a couple of these are from West Africa that came over. We were in Coritiba, Brazil and went to a condo Blais ceremony, no drugs. And they started. Now there's about. In this case, There are about 10 foreigners there, there Western and probably 2, 300 people who were there who attended these ceremonies all of the time. And so they said there was a priestess there. Does anybody want. Well, Victoria always volunteers. She runs down and this woman goes. She's going down doing the. And this. We're in the possession now. Okay. Real full scale possession.
- [190:39]
Host 2
Your wife?
- [190:39]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. And all of a sudden she's out on the floor spinning. We got photos of this or she's spinning. Now these are people who are used to seeing possession and not with gringos.
- [190:54]
Host 2
Did you expect that?
- [190:55]
Host 1
How does the colonel not show up?
- [190:57]
Colonel John Alexander
No, we didn't. As a matter of fact. I went up, I was taking pictures and the guy grabs me and said, you're a reporter. I said, no, that's my wife. She'll be okay. Okay, yeah. And her description of it is allowing this entity into the body to experience whatever. She has no idea of what went on during that period, but it was kind of okay, but it was really dramatic.
- [191:28]
Host 2
So she doesn't remember seeing anything in there?
- [191:31]
Colonel John Alexander
No, no, no. This is, I think, allowing them to experience a human thing temporarily. Now we've had other. We were in, probably don't know Victoria, Brazil I was down talking this gets into the non leaf area and I had been brought down talking to the government so their military police and had looked it up and she had found a Buddha ceremony Ombuda ceremony in Victoria. And we convinced our guide had an amazing guy with us who was a special assistant to the governor happened to have had eidetic imagery in that and I also had a military police major. So we're going into the favala with you know to say we were greeted with skepticism is true. So anyway we go in and say who are you two Americans, you know, kind of weird and had heard about them and all that. So they let us in and the ceremony starts and it goes on for several hours and so they're going to take a break. This is mid now getting later afternoon so our guys have got to leave. They said I'll leave, I'm going to, I'll come back and pick you up. And they came to Victoria and said no, no you can't leave. And it turns out, you know, you know, people we've never seen before who recognize her. Wow. Yeah and we've had that before and there, we've had this in Rio too in the ceremony with saying, you know, here's the goddess to call and all of that. Pretty. They say unusual circumstances. Yes.
- [193:32]
Host 2
Is there any connection with the DMT World and NDEs?
- [193:41]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, is there any connection? There are those who think that DMT is a no understand the methyltryptamine is the precipitating agent. It is not the thing. No, it allows exothermic. I would equate it to more like it's turning on the set, you know the stuff you're now accessing that channel, if you will, NDEs. There are folks who think that you can get a spontaneous release of DMT or something. Mary Annette talked about it, she goes no, does not believe that to be the case, that is that we're spontaneously generating it and that. Because that gives you the potential. We're saying we're talking about hallucinations but like I say, her cases were in the precognitive years in advance. And you know the. In general I don't want to put in anything that suggests that we're dealing with hallucination because that's not the issue now. People interpret these things in very well, various ways. The other thing I said, I was the president of ions for a long time and we had no staff whatsoever. So letters would come in and I would answer them and one of them was, well, I wasn't close to death, but I was out of body. I had this, I had that and whatnot. And also with NDEs, most of them are spontaneous. And you have no idea of whether people are physically close to death or not. I use Mary Neal's case because underwater for 30, 35 minutes, there's no doubt that we had lost physical capability. I've heard this from a number of others. However, most of the cases are spontaneous outside accidents, illness or something like this. So they're not instrumented. You know, the pat. Oh, I'm blanking on name because there is. Pam Reynolds is the name. Is the most, probably most famous case in this. But she's not alone. And this is a case in which a young woman had a brain aneurysm deep in the brain, had some small children, was doing a very risky operation. Survival 50. 50 wouldn't have done it except for young and whatnot. And the point here was that they had stopped the brain. Well, they drained the blood out of the body, but they had a statistical pound. So they're firing electrical charge. In measuring the cortical activity of the brain, you have sensation of heart, sensation of breathing, sensation of cortical electric activity of the brain. By medical definition, this is not near death. This is death itself. And talks about a number of things she's won out of the room. Big one was complaining they were playing Hotel California, which he thought was inappropriate. You can check in, but you can never check out.
- [197:19]
Host 2
Right.
- [197:20]
Colonel John Alexander
But awareness of what everybody was doing at that time and then goes off and meets with hoax. It's like the one with marriage as the original awareness at the location, but then going off and into others and again in different time space dimensions as we know it. There are a few others. Was it. Barbara was a doctor, Barbara, who was an anesthesiologist, who similarly had instrumented death where you can confirm what their physical state is at the time. And so therefore you could not attribute it to hallucination. But I think when you get the transference of information that proves to be accurate. You know, Bruce Grayson, because Bruce and I recommend his book after is one of the key ones. Bruce is a good friend, but he talks about what got him going as a psychiatrist in the hospital, University of Virginia, going down the hall and talking to people, and the person say, oh, you talk to. And you're the one with. He talks about being a spot on the tie and all of that. So you get externally verifiable information that there's not any normal means of that being transferred.
- [198:55]
Host 2
My dad had one during an operation and he knew what was going on. How about shared death experiences? Have you looked into those?
- [199:05]
Colonel John Alexander
Oh, you can't not let me digress just a bit. And this has to do with the progression of NDEs. I say we came into it. Well, IELTS was formed late 70s. We were talking about near death and we would frankly. And I never would have considered having mediums or things like that involved the whole after death communication. They're now the rock stars at the conferences and whatnot. So you have had kind of a progression from indies which is almost shared death experiences is one where there's multiple people not there dying but that are sharing the experience. And some of them continue on and humans and they talk about things like physical changes that take place, the shapes of the room and like that. Another one that's getting terminal lucidity is an issue that's now arising and you can sometimes get shared. This is where people who have been mentally incapacitated for a long period of time shortly before death start talking to relatives and seeing entities even when their
- [200:30]
Host 2
brain is diseased, like from Alzheimer's or something, they're lucid.
- [200:35]
Colonel John Alexander
Yep. This is a field that's sort of evolving. So you had instant near death communication or near death studies which is. Is this real kind of thing. Numbers and these cases are in the millions. I mean we're. Yeah, you know, I was surprised at you know, flying on, traveling, you know, quite a bit. And you talk to people. How many people say again this gets back to always there. So it's a matter of awareness and acceptability that you know, it's okay to talk about these things and you know, and openness. But yeah, at the time Ghost and any number of other movies and TV programs now become kind of standard issue things. But.
- [201:36]
Host 2
As you talk about this stuff with Bob Bigelow at all, I know that he's very, very into the field. Oh, what Bob Bigelow specifically near death experiences. And we had Jeffrey Mishlove in here talk who won one of Bob's awards.
- [201:57]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah, no, no, I. Of course I know Jeff known Jeff. The physic agencies lived here across town. Well, Jeff had an advantage over everybody because he had been running thinking allowed and now new thinking allowed. So we had decades worth of the, you know, just highest quality people that he could acquire. Not quite sure I. Some of that would get in personal stuff with him. I think if he wants to talk about it he could. But he did. Obviously he had the ranch and he came to an ions conference is where they announced it had the thing. Initially the contest was not on the radar. That is something that evolved later. But continuation of consciousness is something he's been interested in for a long time. You know his. Well, the first time I met him was at MIT in 92. John Mack was having. And Dave Pritchard had a conference on abductions versus NDEs. And. And that's where I gave the first talk on correlation. The bad news was that I had to go right after John. Tough act, tough act. But having said that, I had first met Bob there, but that was just a handshake. Hi, how are you? What I did not know at the time was that his son had died like within a month before that. So it had interest. I found out later how many he went to lots and lots of mediums and very familiar. He had brought Dean Radin in the UNLV for a while. So there was a precursor there. And then they set up the Bigelow Chair of Consciousness at unlv. Charlie Tart held that initially and then Raymond came in for a while. Bad news was that stopped funding it and they were eating principle and eventually that ran out. But he's had a long interest and some personal tragedies that have happened there that I'm sure have driven certain factors. And so he decided to set it up, brought column back and well, you,
- [204:58]
Host 2
you covered this stuff for so long. Was there anything in your research that you believed and then turned out that you were wrong or, or the, or the opposite, something that you didn't believe that you were surprised that was true?
- [205:14]
Colonel John Alexander
Well, that's an interesting question. I, I would say there were a lot of things that I would have thought were highly speculative that I'm now willing to accept. Well, we talked about the progression in NDEs and the answer to your question is yes. And that has to do with ADC and some things we're doing in after death communication. You know, Gary Schwartz, I'll be hopefully talking to him tomorrow. We talk periodically, but he was with. He's now retired with the University of Arizona and working on something called Soul Phone.
- [206:01]
Host 2
Soul Phone.
- [206:02]
Colonel John Alexander
Yeah. What they are trying to do is to instrument the direct communications. This is ostensibly with the help of some people that you would know, you know, by, you know, immediately by name and that who seem to be involved from the other side. What he calls Team A is trying to assist in the communication. But this is, you know, in the 80s never would have touched them because that's, you know, kind of outside the realm. That's not scientific and now, now you're getting the point. And Gary, I would look him up. He's got a number of books out that on this and he's like. The reason we didn't talk yesterday is he was editing a book that is forthcoming on the future of soul Phone.
- [207:07]
Host 2
Oh. Coming up on two hours. So I think we'll say goodbye. Colonel John Alexander. Thank you very much. It's been a lot of fun. You're local so anytime you want to come back in. Because we didn't talk about directed energy weapons. Non lethal. We still have a lot more to cover.
- [207:20]
Colonel John Alexander
Whatever.
- [207:21]
Host 2
We'll get the real world. Goodbye everybody.
- [207:26]
Host 1
That was Colonel John Alexander. We covered fireproof shamans, spoon bidding parties for army generals, A werewolf in a Washington backyard and a coin that appeared overnight in a tent in Mongolia. The career Green Berets, Los Alamos, the Pentagon. Well that's all public record but some stories need a checking. Start with the one that sounds made up. John said the army brought in Tony Robbins. Yeah, that Tony Robbins pre fame to teach soldiers to shoot using neuro linguistic programming. And that's real. John helped run it. And Robbins still tells the story. Everyone qualified in a day. The army fixed its pistol scores with the future king of the firewalking seminar.
- [208:04]
Host 2
I love this job.
- [208:06]
Host 1
Now the white cells. Researchers wired people's own white blood cells to a chart recorder in another room. John's personal result. He could beat the polygraph, but he couldn't beat his cells. When the army convened a scientific panel to judge the weirdness, John took them to the lab. Two panel members donated cells. Minutes into John's talk, the man watching the recorder ran in and asked what happened. The report is real. Enhancing human Performance National Research Council, 1988. And it found no evidence for any of this. The lab visit wasn't in there. So we have his work. But the story that got me isn't from the lab. In the late 70s, John attended a workshop on death and dying, then mailed the teacher a thank you note. She was Elizabeth Kubler Ross. The five stages of Greece. Kubler Ross. Weeks later she called his office and asked to meet. And she told him, I know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you and I have no idea why. John heard himself answer. I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. She ended up running his doctoral committee. That part is on paper. The phone call isn't. Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf is where I tap out. And I say that as a man who pays his mortgage with werewolf stories. But everything I could check out came back true. So the rest gets patience and I don't hand out much of that. But John earned it the boring way with paperwork. He's local so there will be around too. John's books are reality denied and UFOs myths, conspiracies and Realities both on Amazon.
- [209:31]
Host 2
Both awesome.
- [209:32]
Host 1
And his site is John B. Alexander.com. that's John B. Alexander. Everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered the army of spoon vendors in my first earthquake Italian episode that was about John. Do I think he. Yeah, I mentioned him in that episode. That's a fun one though. That's the men at Stair Goats. That's about George Cler's John.
- [209:50]
Host 2
Did you know that?
- [209:51]
Host 1
I don't think we brought it up. Until next time, be safe, be kind and know that you are appreciated.
- [210:09]
Guest or Additional Commentator
Oh yeah I played Polybius in Area 51 a secret code inside the Bible said I would I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music song singing like I should Then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth my friends and it never ends no, it never ends. I feel the crab cat and got stuck inside Mel's home with MKOTRA I feel and only two aware Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set were the shadow people there the Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man I'm told and his name was cold But I can't believe I'm dancing with the fancy. The Mothman sightings and the solar stones still come to Agatha the secret city underground mysterious Number stations Planet Circle 2 Project Stargate and where the dark Watcher was found in a simulation don't you worry though the Black Knights had a lot of jo me so I can't believe I'm dancing with the f Had fish on Thursday night with day J2 and the weapons to the night. Remember what it was to just hear the truth of. Fish on Thursday nights When they change you and weapons. I. Love to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel and camels love to dance when the feeling is right on way.