The Basement: Nerdrotic | From Folsom Prison to Millions of Subscribers

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Why Files: Operation Podcast

Episode: The Basement: Nerdrotic | From Folsom Prison to Millions of Subscribers

Date: May 4, 2026
Host: The Why Files (A)
Guest: Gary Buechler (Nerdrotic) (B)

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Overview

This episode is an intense and compelling long-form interview with Gary Buechler, aka Nerdrotic, whose popular YouTube channel and podcasts focus on pop culture criticism and ancient mysteries. Host “A” guides Gary through his harrowing personal journey: from troubled childhood and incarceration in Old Folsom State Prison, through addiction and homelessness, to recovery and building a successful online media brand—one now influential enough to catch the eye of Hollywood studios and pop culture discourse.

The conversation is raw yet often lighthearted, mixing candid recollections of trauma, addiction, recovery, industry insights, nerdy debates, and the ethos driving Gary’s passionate work and influence.

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Key Topics & Discussion Breakdown

1. Prison Culture and Early Life (00:00–24:00)

• Toilet Wine, Pruno, and Prison Anecdotes

  • Gary describes “pruno,” or homemade orange “toilet wine,” and how it’s clandestinely brewed and stashed in prison ([02:06]).
  • “I never touched the stuff, but I certainly helped people make it and helped people hide it.” (B, [02:17])

• Adoption, Trauma, Abuse

  • Gary was adopted after his teen birth-mother chose not to raise him. He learned at age seven, feeling unwanted and curious about his origins ([18:40]).
  • “If he wanted to find me, he could find me. I had a dad, though, so I was totally taken care of.” (B, [17:39])
  • He discloses being molested by a male teacher in second grade, which sowed deep distrust of authority ([21:29–23:00]).
  • “Way worse than finding out I was adopted was ... I was molested by a teacher … that's if you want to, like, put a finger on my deep distrust of the government, the system.” (B, [21:29])

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2. Descent into Addiction, Crime, and Incarceration (24:00–61:00)

• Delinquency and Early Addictions

  • Gary began stealing as a child and drinking using whatever booze he could find by age 10–11. Meth (crank) followed in junior high for focus and escape ([25:01–28:22]).
  • “It makes me excited about everything I hate ... school never really worked for me.” (B, [27:42])

• Dropping Out and Family Fractures

  • After punching a teacher ([32:04]), he’s kicked out by his (adoptive) father—a moment Gary now describes as “the greatest act of love” ([33:05]).
  • “My parents had given up at that point … My mom would enable, I was able to manipulate my mom ... but mostly I was on my own, on the streets.” (B, [33:01])

• Burglaries, Arrests, and First Glimpses of Prison

  • Details of petty crimes, comically inept penny heists, and eventual escalation to a serious “hot prowl” (armed burglary)—the crime that sent him to Old Folsom ([44:34–51:01]).
  • “I hid under a Porsche … her dad has got a gun … pulls me out. ... I got my life saved by a cop.” (B, [49:45])

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3. Surviving (and Learning in) Old Folsom Prison (61:00–84:00)

• Prison Rules & Survival

  • Level 2 inmates like Gary were mixed with violent offenders due to overcrowding—a dangerous mistake ([57:48]).
  • Key rules from seasoned prisoners: Don’t get involved (with gambling/drugs/gay prisoners), do not snitch, never back down from a fight ([59:55]).
  • “If you're going to fight, fight. You have to fight. You can't back down from a fight.” (B, [60:31])

• Toxic Cellmate, Mental Strain, and the Fight

  • Gary shares a cell with a double murderer who emotionally tortures him; Gary’s breaking point comes when the man taunts him with letters from Gary’s mother, triggering a violent fight ([67:06–71:11]).
  • “He’s going through my letters. ... I like your mom's handwriting. ... Think I want to write your mom. ... I lost my shit … bashed his face in … blood everywhere … I’m going to the hole.” (B, [67:34–71:11])

• Transformation: Routine, Recovery, and Plan

  • After a new cell assignment, Gary finds sanity in routine and begins AA meetings. He credits the prison routine and meetings with changing his life ([74:05]).
  • “The best advice I heard is ... find a routine. ... You get up at the same time. ... It helps the time go faster.” (B, [63:10])

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4. Recovery, Relapse, & The Comic Shop Era (84:00–111:00)

• Reintegration Post-Release

  • Upon release, Gary is overwhelmed with gratitude. He embraces a simple sober life, rekindles his family bonds, and, through recovery circles, rebuilds trust ([83:12–87:05]).
  • “No material thing had any value to me. It was pure freedom ... That was the first day I understood what liberty and freedom is.” (B, [83:12–84:05])

• Relapse, Self-Sabotage, and Redemption

  • An eventual relapse starts passively—with prescription painkillers—spirals into heavy cocaine use, lying, and the near loss of everything. His wife Melissa organizes an intervention ([111:01–121:12]).
  • “It goes from getting prescribed [drugs] ... The addict mind kicked in again, absolutely kicked in.” (B, [113:13–114:19])
  • “Melissa finds out what the hell's going on ... She just plays it cool, and then all of a sudden, there's a bunch of people coming to my house. ... I decided to not be an asshole.” (B, [118:47–119:11])

• Sober Living and Rebuilding

  • Gary endures the humility of sober-living programs, working low-wage jobs, and staying distant to regain family trust ([125:06]).
  • “I am not going to be that dad. I am not going to let my kids down, period.” (B, [128:13])

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5. Enter Nerdrotic: New Media, Pop Culture, and YouTube Success (111:00–175:00)

• Comic Shop to Content Creator

  • Gary buys and runs a comic store in San Francisco during a pop culture boom, winning ‘Best of the Bay’ as the “normie superhero family store” ([107:02–108:16]).
  • Trains in digital video, launching a podcast and then a YouTube channel reflecting his lifelong comics/entertainment passions ([109:03–110:50]).

• YouTube Growth and Rising Influence

  • “Friday Night Tights” and “Forbidden Frontier” podcasts grow. Gary discusses the ‘access media’—industry press who trade honest criticism for exclusive access ([150:26–156:19]).
  • “I never asked for a super chat ... the support has been brilliant. ... once that took off, Doctor Who happened.” (B, [142:40–142:54])
  • Gary’s video criticizing the “female Doctor” in Doctor Who goes viral; he faces attacks, mislabeling as ‘far right,’ and endures, focusing instead on story integrity over politics ([157:33–161:04]).
  • “I'm labeled far-right for the same reasons a lot of people get labeled far right: you don't agree with one extreme political sect on 100% of everything.” (B, [160:15])

• Philosophy: Story First, Politics Later

  • The failure of media franchises that “put politics ahead of story”—Doctor Who, Star Trek, Marvel, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings—is dissected, along with Gary’s early and accurate warnings ([194:56–196:54]).
  • “If your intention is: I want people to think about this ... you want the most people ... so you don't talk down to them.” (B, [163:41])

• Personal Practice & Legacy

  • Ongoing daily gratitude, helping others in recovery, valuing honesty and humility to avoid “ego Gary” coming back.
  • “You’re the most important person in your life ... The world can still benefit from them turning stuff around. It's never too late.” (B, [193:26])

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6. Side Projects: Ancient Mysteries & Forbidden Frontier (176:00–190:00)

• UFOs, Ancient Civilizations, and Fieldwork
  • Inspired by Art Bell and Graham Hancock, Gary pursues forbidden archaeology and ancient mysteries on Forbidden Frontier.
  • “I've been to Peru and Egypt so far. ... Going to Sacsayhuamán ... mind blowing.” (B, [185:34])
  • Skepticism toward establishment figures like Zahi Hawass, focus on open inquiry and democratizing research ([188:04]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Recovery:

  • “There's just some people who can drink half a beer and leave it on the counter. I was never that person, and I don't think any addict is.” (B, [37:44])
  • “Don’t go back in. ... The best meal of my life, which was an omelette at Denny’s. ... Greatest meal I’ve ever had.” (B, [84:44])

• On Fandom:

  • “Fans are the ones who shepherd new fans in. They are the custodians ... Star Trek fans are the ones who make more Star Trek fans.” (B, [168:07])
  • “We’ve lost that with the division ... I think the lesson we can learn from Project Hail Mary is, this is what people want. ... It's just a nice, hopeful story.” (B, [07:03])

• On Access Media:

  • “There’s also toxic positivity ... to maintain their access ... they will gaslight things that aren’t very good so they can maintain their access.” (B, [150:33])

• On Why He Does It:

  • “I try to keep things very much in check ... I am just an idiot with a microphone.” (B, [173:09])

• Advice for Listeners in Recovery:

  • “People love them, people care about them, and ... it's never too late ... Your life will get better way faster than you think.” (B, [193:29])

• On Pop Culture's Direction:

  • “Hollywood went after it because they wanted to ... force the change that was needed, consequences be damned.” (B, [165:33])

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Important Timestamps

• Adoption/Life-changing trauma – [16:56–23:39]
• First substance use – [25:01–29:16]
• Pivotal school fight and being kicked out – [31:05–33:05]
• “Hot prowl” burglary & gun incident – [47:37–51:01]
• Arriving at Old Folsom, rules for survival – [57:48–61:45]
• Cell fight (Walkman incident) – [67:06–71:23]
• Freedom & reintegration, Denny’s meal – [83:12–84:54]
• First YouTube success – [138:06–142:54]
• "Access media" explained – [150:26–156:19]
• Doctor Who controversy – [157:33–161:04]
• On gratitude and self-worth – [192:00–194:24]

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Conclusion / Takeaways

• Gary’s path from trauma and crime, through hellish prison conditions and years of addiction and relapse, to family, recovery, gratitude, and socio-cultural influence, is candidly and movingly detailed.
• Success came only after humility, support structures, and meaning-making through creative projects and human connection.
• His philosophy is rooted in love for story, skepticism toward heavy-handed politics in pop culture, and advocacy for critical, independent voices.
• For those struggling with addiction or difficult circumstances: “It’s never too late to turn things around—there are people who care, and meetings are free.”

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Related Links:

• Gary’s memoir: Wading From Prison to YouTube
• YouTube Channel: Nerdrotic
• Podcasts: Friday Night Tights, Forbidden Frontier

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This summary preserves the direct, candid, and unpolished nature of the conversation and can serve both as an in-depth guide and as a standalone overview for those who haven’t heard the episode.

Transcript

[A]

Today I'm talking with Gary Buechler. You probably know him as Nerdrotic. Gary has built a media empire around pop culture commentary, Friday night tights, Forbidden frontier, and a YouTube channel that Hollywood studios now quietly track. Yeah, so Hollywood finally figured out how to read the room. And the room says, we hate everything you make. Nice. But before any of this existed, Gary grew up in San Diego in the 80s. He spent years running from a trauma that he never shared with anyone. Ladies, San Diego has Top Gun, Peach volley pool, and endless amounts of potty powder. He's running from it, but I'm a run into it. Gary. I feel the need. I feel the need. Do it or I'll sing. Take my breath away. I'm not doing it. I feel the need. Fine. The need for speed. The need for speed. Gary eventually ended up at Old Folsom State Prison, not New Folsom. Old Folsom. Johnny Cash Folsom. I didn't know there were two Folsoms. You're not gonna like it. Well, today we cover all of it. The second grade teacher who changed his life, what it's like to share a cell with a double murderer, and how he went from sleeping in his car to building a YouTube empire. Let's go down to the basement. Gary, welcome to the basement.

[B]

Why, thank you. That's embarrassing. It's all good.

[A]

Before we get started, I ask everyone this question. Ufo, experienced researchers, physicists, concerned. Same question. Hypothetical desert island. You get one choice. What flavor? Toilet wine.

[B]

Toilet wine, what flavor? I would say pruno. It would have to be pruno, which is made from oranges.

[A]

Oh, you go orange.

[B]

Well, I have to. I mean, like, I would have to break my sobriety because, like, I'm dead. Right? Right.

[A]

No, that's totally hypothetical.

[B]

I would rather grow cocoa plants. If I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna go out good. But, yeah, orange. That's. That's the one I'm the most familiar with. I never touched the stuff, but I certainly helped people make it and helped people hide it.

[A]

I read.

[B]

Oh, yes, it's. It's oranges. I believe it's yeast. And you let it ferment for a little while.

[A]

Why do you call it toilet wine?

[B]

Oh, well, sometimes you need to get your water from places other. They mostly get it from the sink, but I think that's just the term they use. Plus, it's usually hidden around the toilet or under a bunk. It can only last for so long because they. They search the cells pretty regularly and randomly, so it has to be. I honestly. I don't know how they do it. They were able to switch cells, and probably a guard tipped them off at some point, you know, some bribery. But, like, it's in, like, bags. It's in trash bags.

[A]

It was the weirdest thing to learn about people making wine in the joint.

[B]

And apparently it's really strong.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, it's, like, really, really strong wine.

[A]

Strong for wine. It's not like booze, though.

[B]

No, no. But when you're. You got a bunch of guys who haven't drank or anything for months, it'll probably hit them pretty hard.

[A]

I bet it would. And you've had. You've had alcohol before, and.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Yes. Before we go into the origin story. I know you've told it a million times. It's such a good story. When I was reading it, I cried at the end, and I felt myself getting angry at you during it, especially because I know you and you're a friend. I love you, so I know how it ends.

[B]

Love you too, man.

[A]

And I just want to smack you in the head every. Every step of the way. Which we're gonna get into before we do the origin story. Kick it off positive. What's on TV or whatever movie that you're liking right now.

[B]

Three things have come out this year.

[A]

What do you got?

[B]

A Night of the Seven Kingdoms was damn near 10 out of 10. Just a great adaptation of a great novella by George R.R. martin, who needs to finish his other books. It is a really simple tale of heroism and what it means to be a knight and chivalry. And while it still has some of the Game of Thrones aspects of it, it's very. It's very linear, and you can't help but root for both dunk and egg. And it was a short series, and it built momentum as time went on, and I just absolutely loved every minute of it.

[A]

I did, too. I didn't start Knights until it was like, episode three. And I started like this, just arms folded because of. Just angry at everybody. Angry at season six, all that Dark Knight. Angry at George. I don't know how many days we are waiting for the last book.

[B]

Over 5,000.

[A]

5,000?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And of course, he's executive producer, so I watched. I don't know, I was maybe 10 minutes into the first episode, and I was like, okay, they did it. This is really true to the books, as I've read those, and I loved it.

[B]

Number two, One piece, season two. Absolutely loved it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Never thought I would like this show. I'm not like the biggest anime fan in the world. When I saw the trailer for season one, it looked like the worst thing I've ever seen. I love season one and I love season two. Really?

[A]

I'm not an anime guy. That's interesting.

[B]

It's it in the same vein. Of the three things I like are a Night of the Seven Kingdoms project, Hail Mary and One Piece. And the one thing they have in common is a positive look at the world. I'm so sick to. I liked nihilism. I did. I liked all that subversion stuff back in the 2000 and tens when it was cool. It is so overdone. I am. It's just. It's cooked at this point. As the kids say. Gen Z thinks they came up with that.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's been around for 100 years. Okay. Just want to let you know. No, but seeing heroes with a positive outlook, seeing something hopeful is nice. It's just really nice. And I love all three of those things. And I'm, you know, it makes you. Makes you wonder if they can turn things around. Probably not.

[A]

But you know, was your number three. Hail Mary.

[B]

Hail Mary Love project. Hail Mary.

[A]

I. That could, that could save Hollywood at least for a while because that brought everybody back to the theaters.

[B]

It did. Top Gun, Maverick did the same thing. That's what I was about to say three years ago. And they learned nothing from it. And they thought it was just this jingoistic patriotic movie. It's like, no, it was just a feel good heroic story. And the reason we go to the theater or you have to make this distinction for, for popcorn movies, for tent pole movies is to escape.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't need to be lectured to. There are certainly spaces and times for those movies. You can make them all day long as independent films. But when it comes to I want to. To take my family or I want to just go and have a good time and turn off the rest of the world. That. That's when Hollywood is doing their best and that's when they actually put good in the world. They. They really love to think that they're changing the world. And what they. They're not providing entertainment. They're a platform for influence. AJ and we're going to teach those plebs out in middle America how to think. You know, instead of just going, you know, let's just entertain them. And it brings people, people together. And we've lost that with the division. I think some in Hollywood are starting to recognize that the problem is it's, it's like Twitter, before Elon took over, the cancer was there and you have to cut it out root and stem and it's. I don't think it's possible in Hollywood. I think there will be some change. But I think the lesson we can learn from Project Hail Mary is this is what people want that, I mean it's just a nice hopeful story with a really dark, you know, the world is ending.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

In it. And it like, it made me want to watch all the space movies. So I've watched 2001, which is amazing. Interstellar contacts, 10 out of 10 contacts. Still the best.

[A]

Contacts the best. The ending. It's okay. Arrival I thought was solid. Let me push back on one thing.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And this is not going to be a political show because people are going to be surprised. You're not a political guy.

[B]

No.

[A]

Gene Roddenberry put his politics in his shows and we love the original series, so his politics are in there. Why did they work?

[B]

They worked because they weren't that heavy handed and when they approached the audience it was, in a way, if you want to change somebody's mind, I would, I would, would discourage you going, hey bigot, listen to me. You know, that's, that's not how you change people's mind. The defenses automatically go up. So what they do is they present to you the idea and it, and they leave it kind of up to you. In a lot of Star Trek, they leave. In a lot of X Files, they leave it up to you to kind of see that stuff. And that's, that's the mark of a good writer. And we certainly know where Jean Roddenberry's, you know, politics come from. But we also have to consider the time he grew up, the time he, you know, he went to not grew up, but you know, he went to World War II. He, he, he's a writer who lived a life we have writer. None of the writers, not most of the writers in current Hollywood have not lived the lives of the writers of even 10 or 20 years ago who were veterans or had careers before writing. Now they're just their, their knowledge of the world is other TV shows and riffing other TV shows.

[A]

I think Roddenberry was always story first so his politics were there he wanted, but his politics were just let's all get along, make the world a better place. But it was always about the story and that's flipped a little bit with some properties, particularly with Star Trek.

[B]

Yes, Star Trek lost its way and that's why right now for the first time in 10 years. There's no Star Trek in production. In my humble opinion, there hasn't been any Star Trek in production in that time. Except for Picard Season 3.

[A]

I like, but hashtag, bring backpitalis. Yes, I was the same way. And I was all in on Star Trek, all of it. I'm a niner. DS9, that's my favorite.

[B]

It's good.

[A]

So I stuck with Discovery for a long time. Eventually I was just out. I was so disappointed and I never came back. Except I heard you talking about Picard, which I started. And it was. I was terrible. And season three was that it was like, now they finally figured it out. Now, how did that. How did it happen that we got the story that we wanted as Star Trek fans?

[B]

Kurtzman and Akiva Goldsman, who. Akiva Goldsman's won an Academy Award. Right. But he's not really. And he wrote Constantine, which is actually a good movie. Not really good at Star Trek, in my opinion, at all. And Picard season one or two are the, like, last Jedi of Star Trek. They're so just. Picard is a broken old man. So it got better because Kurtzman went off to go do the man who Fell to Earth. And it was obligatory that they have. They. They owed Patrick Stewart a third season, so they gave him no money. Basically the entire series is a bottle series and. But he had no supervision and he was able to do whatever he wanted. Word on the street is he was able to fire everybody he wanted to. Except for one person. He made that one person work. I won't say who it is, but he made that one person work and he brought back the crew and he just. It was a bunch of fan service and he had to do mental gymnastics to. To bring back the Enterprise D and the like. And it worked. It was. And the funniest bit at the end, well, they gave Star Trek fans something Star. Star wars fans didn't get. We had the crew of the Enterprise on the Enterprise D at the end of an episode, just together, the carpet, the lighting, everything. It's all we wanted.

[A]

That's all we wanted.

[B]

All we wanted. And, you know, logic be damned. And the best part at the end was there was a virus from the Borg that affected only young people. It was a mind virus. So that's how they worked it out, where the old people had to come in and save the young people. It was great, right?

[A]

Like, are you getting it? When. When Wharf showed up, did you. How I was screaming when Wharf showed up. Absolutely. Michael Dorn's just still bringing it, it's my favorite.

[B]

My, outside of the original series, that is my favorite modern Star Trek character. He, he ruled.

[A]

He was the best.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The best moment in Picard season three for me was when I was such fan service. So gratuitous. I loved it is when they were at the shipyard, look. Going through all the ships and you just hear the theme song. Woven through.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I was, the tears are coming down. I was just, I was a mess.

[B]

You're like, I, I didn't know I needed this.

[A]

I knew I did. I knew I, But I didn't know it would be executed so perfectly. Oh, it was, it was just.

[B]

And it came from somebody who, like Terry Matalis. You can't deny the man loves Star Trek, like, loves Star Trek and probably, I don't know, David Ellison, if you're out there, because of course you watch the Y Files, that's probably the guy you should hire.

[A]

That's the guy.

[B]

Right. To run Star Trek right now. Be my, my suggestion.

[A]

I think he might do it. I don't know if, if Kurtzman's gonna get another project after Starfleet Academy.

[B]

I, I, if he does, Paramount, Warner Brothers are done. They're done. They're done as a company, like. Because that really tells you what the path is. I don't think he's coming back.

[A]

I, I, I think, I don't think so either. And whenever I hear you or drinker or people saying Star Trek is over, I know you don't mean it. I know that if, if it comes back and they give you what you want, you're coming right back. Of course, of course.

[B]

Of course. I'm a fan. I love Star Trek is part of your life. Part of my life. We didn't have a lot of tv, not to age us too much, but we have, what, three channels to choose from?

[A]

Three.

[B]

I was lucky because I was in San Diego, so I had six, because we had the San Diego and we got the L A stations.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But they all played the same stuff, you know, but it was just Star Trek, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Gilligan's island, like, on heavy rotation.

[A]

It's so weird you said Gilligan's island because I was just thinking that as you said, what we watched, we watched Gilligan's island all the time.

[B]

All the time.

[A]

I don't know why. And the original Batman was always on.

[B]

The first superhero shows I watched were George Reeves, Superman and Adam West. Batman, yes, same. And I thought it was, I was a kid, so I'm like, this is totally A serious show. This is an earnest show.

[A]

I forget the name of it. The book is around here somewhere. It's a story about George Reeves and the terror and the horrible life that he had. It's really worth reading. He's a tragedy, but he was a great superman. So we've been friends for a long time, and I've been a fan of yours probably during COVID so. A long time. And I know you've told your origin story a million times. You have a lot of fans here at the studio, and I was talking to one of them just the other day, and I said, oh, man, Gary's gonna tell his prison story again. And she goes, what? He was in prison? So apparently people don't know. Some. Some people don't know that you did real time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And comparatively.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, reading. Reading your memoir, there were times where I was actually scared because you're so honest in it. About. You're really honest in it, which we'll get into. Really surprisingly honest. So when you establish that honesty very early on, like with what happened when you were a kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now I never know what's gonna happen. Like, it's like a George Martin novel. Right. You never know he's gonna die next because. So it's established. So when you're in prison, I'm just waiting for the tragedy, and eventually things do happen. So I want to hear about the beginning even before. Talk about. You're adopted.

[B]

Yeah, I was. My. My birth mom, who I am in contact with to this very day, who's a lovely woman, got pregnant with me when she was 16. She was a partier back in the 60s, you know, as the. And I don't hold this against her at all. She's. Again, she's a wonderful Catholic, good Catholic woman. And my. My sperm donor dad, who I've never met. Don't know what he looks like. Don't care.

[A]

Are you angry about him?

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, I mean, I. I understand. He was young too, but I figured if. If he wanted to find me, he. He could find me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I had a dad, though, so I. In the dad department. Totally taken care of, so I was adopted.

[A]

So. Wait, hang on.

[B]

Very young.

[A]

We. If you met your birth mom, you didn't ask about your father.

[B]

I've asked about him, but I've never really.

[A]

What did she say?

[B]

She. She doesn't know. She. Like, once he was gone, he was gone, so he promised to. To stay with her. He was. The only thing I know about him is his name, and he Was a Seventh Day Adventist, so. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Wasn't practicing very well, I guess.

[A]

Was he good to her

[B]

up until the end? Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Up until the end. And he said he'd stay and this would be a qu. She doesn't really talk about it a bunch, and I don't push, but he had promised to stay and then he took off.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he was at the time, I think, 18, so it's like I. I

[A]

kind of get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why it's okay. You know, I kind of get.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not. Was I angry about it when I was younger? Absolutely. But I'm not now.

[A]

When did you find out you were adopted?

[B]

Very early, I think my parents told me when I was seven.

[A]

When you were seven?

[B]

Six or seven? Yeah.

[A]

How did that conversation start?

[B]

Oh, what little I remember of it, my mom and dad both just wanted to, like. They sat down and go, we love you the same is Terry, you know, but we have to tell you this. That's. It's foggy, that conversation. But I remember it tripping me out for. Listen, if you're adopted, I'm sure it affects people differently, but it affects you. It does. It's like I, you, you. You don't feel wanted. And you're always thinking about that person

[A]

who, like, who just dump you.

[B]

What does she look like?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Why did she do this? You know, why did.

[A]

Why were you rejected?

[B]

Yeah. And you're trying to deal with stuff like that when you're like seven years old, so. I used to. Yeah, I used to, like, have little fantasies about it when I was a kid. But, like, honestly, I never got mad at my parents about it. And other than feeling the abandonment.

[A]

When is a good age to tell an adoption boy.

[B]

I don't know if there's ever a good. I think early as possible is the best way to do it.

[A]

Seven feels really hard.

[B]

Yeah. But if you wait too long.

[A]

True.

[B]

I.

[A]

It's true. I, I don't know.

[B]

Honestly, I don't know a good answer to that question. But it, they, it. It softened the blow with me because again, it's going to affect you no matter what. So do you affect them early or late? That's on the parent to do that. I don't have a good suggestion for that, but for me, it wasn't terrible.

[A]

Well, you were kind of a little asshole.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For a long time.

[B]

Long time.

[A]

Do you think?

[B]

Some might argue I still am.

[A]

Some might. I wouldn't. You. But you're kind of an asshole. Your poor parents man, reading the book, I'm like, they're still sticking with this kid. If they had told you a little later, do you think you would have been a little more chill? Maybe I'm just. Because there's an undercurrent of anger in your origin story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Railing against the man authority, all of that. It's. The anger is coming from somewhere. Because when you're 11 or 12, you don't really know anything. So what are you angry about? So if they waited, if they waited,

[B]

I don't think it would have helped my anger. Maybe a more mature 12, because I wasn't super mature. But that was because of the things that ha. I, I, if, if anything that made me angry. We can talk about, like what happened to me in school.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

This is way worse than finding out I was adopted was. I was molested by a teacher. By a school teacher. So how old? I was in second grade. So whatever age second grade is.

[A]

Six or seven.

[B]

Yeah. So right around the same time. Right around the same time.

[A]

That's a busy year.

[B]

That's a.

[A]

Were you singled out by that teacher?

[B]

I don't know. It felt like I was, but I honestly don't know. And he was brazen about it. Like he would, like during. We were watching a Disney movie. Maybe that's why I hate Disney. We were watching a Disney movie and he pulled me in the back and while the kids were watching and did stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I, I was about to say nothing horrible, but. No, it was horrible.

[A]

Of course it was.

[B]

It was all horrible. Right. So this I, I, if you want to, like, put a finger on my deep distrust of the government, the system, my, I don't like teachers unions because they protect. This is not A.J. this is me. They protect people like this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it's been proven that they do this and they don't do anything about it. So it really set me up to completely fail in school. Not trust any adult, not trust any authority.

[A]

So there's definitely anger there that you're carrying. Super angry. You didn't tell anyone about what the teacher was doing, Right?

[B]

No.

[A]

Parents knowing?

[B]

No, didn't tell. As a matter of fact, I got. When one day was particularly bad, I bailed on. On school. I just walked out of school.

[A]

Second grade.

[B]

Yeah, in second grade. So there's a little second grader walking home on this busy La Costa Avenue, if you're familiar with Southern California. Little second grader. And people started noticing that, they called the school bus driver came and got me, and I got in trouble. I got in huge trouble for it.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

And I couldn't say what. What I was. You know, they're all. Why'd you leave?

[A]

That would make any kid angry.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because here you are taking the heat for it. And you have no idea what I've been through. I was angry at that teacher the whole way through your book. I know you were through your sobriety. We'll get to that. But how you got through that is amazing. I don't know if I could. So, second grade, when did you start becoming a delinquent?

[B]

Not far after that. I broke. I wanted a toy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And knew where the spare key was. And broke into my friend's house. Got caught by his dad. You know, like all this. This is at a single digit.

[A]

Single digit.

[B]

Broke into my first house.

[A]

I mean, a theme.

[B]

Just because I wanted something throughout your book.

[A]

You're just the worst criminal ever. You're just not good at it, Gary. No, I'm not good at it.

[B]

Stupid as hell. Still am, by the way. But, yeah, I just, you know, I just like, I. I remember. I remember getting caught.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, I went home and they told my dad I got in a huge amount of trouble. But it never discouraged me. No, it didn't.

[A]

You kept going back.

[B]

I kept doing it.

[A]

What about substances, Booze and stuff? When did that start?

[B]

That started. Oh, God, 11:10. 11:12.

[A]

How is that even around an 11 year old?

[B]

Well, pot was around. Sure, pot was around, but first time I. I really got drunk was at Roscoe, South Dakota. They had a centennial or. Yeah, centennial. And there was like half drinking beers laying around. And I'm like, oh, just want to try this? Because my dad would let me sip a beer.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I saw everybody else getting drunk. I'm like, ah, let's try it. And I loved it. I was like, oh, so I'm drinking like people. I don't know what the hell's in this can. I just. I didn't care.

[A]

You love the drink or you love the feeling?

[B]

I love the feeling. Drink tastes like crap.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yep. I've never liked the taste of alcohol,

[A]

but the escape is pretty good.

[B]

Yep. That's where it all started. I'm like, oh, this is for me. This is for me. And then it went to pot. And not. Not too far after that, a friend of mine, like, laid out a. A line of. Of. Of crystal meth, which is a lot, I guess, a lot different now than it was back then. It was called crank back then.

[A]

How Old are you now when the.

[B]

This is junior high.

[A]

Are you holding now? You have anything decent?

[B]

Anything good? No, nothing. Nothing good. No. Now, I've got some nicotine things that. There you go. There you go. Yeah. I have one bad habit still. I vape.

[A]

That is not your only bad habit, but that's fine.

[B]

Well, right now, no. So. Okay, so I'm.

[A]

So where's your crank? Who are you hanging out with? I didn't see. I hardly saw pot growing up.

[B]

And it's not like, oh, this was just my friends in junior high, and I was a jock early on, so I was hanging out with the jocks. Football, football, basketball. So I played tight end. I played linebacker. I was also punter. I was backup quarterback. So I was pretty good, you know, for. For a white boy in, like, all white boy county.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But, yeah, so he lays out a line for me, and I did it. And then I'm like, what's it do? I had no idea what it did. He's all, you get your homework done today. And I got my homework done. I'm like, this is great. It. It makes me excited about everything I hate because I. School never really worked for me, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who feel the same way. It just. I was, I think, the best at best. I was a C student when I paid attention, but it never captured my attention. This is before drugs. It just never interested me.

[A]

This is basically Adderall.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, people. They called it hyperactive. Back then, I was considered a hyperactive child. And it did. I mean, it did focus me for a little while. It. It did.

[A]

But look, I'm on that stuff. I've used that stuff. I struggle with drinking too much. I go sober on and off. I struggle with it on and off. I totally feel all of this. You just went. You went harder, but I totally get all of it. And that feeling of just clarity, of all the chaos and you're on the ADHD mind is very, very intriguing. Of just like, oh, my goodness, I could be productive.

[B]

Yeah. And it's. It was the first. I'm like, maybe there's something wrong with me. Like, I've heard that before, but that was the first time. I'm like, oh, if this stuff works on me, that can't be good. I even knew that. You knew that then. Yeah. But the fact is it works, and it makes. It makes me focused for the first time. The thing is, though, that's not exactly true, because I would focus like, crazy on stuff I was interested in. Like, I would focus on comics and entertainment and all this stuff my dad and my mom said wasn't important, and they were wrong. You know, they said it wasn't important and I wouldn't pay attention to anything I was supposed to. And it eventually got me out at, like, the things I did. Love sports. It got me out of those. And then I started hanging around with all the bad kids because once I started doing the drugs, I'm like, well, I need to hang around the people who are doing the drugs.

[A]

Yeah, I have the drugs. And you're not really going to school anymore, right?

[B]

No, no. I started ditching in freshman year and I managed to squeak out sophomore year. But then that was it. I got kicked out of San Diego High School.

[A]

Hang on one second. Hey, Haley.

[B]

Get.

[A]

Get Jen in here. Started using when the meth started, when you were what, about 13?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

14. How are you getting the money for that?

[B]

How am I getting the money for that? Well, at first it was. Friends had the money and they shared it and it was kind of like, normal. I had a paper route, but.

[A]

Did you get the paper route saying, I need drug money?

[B]

No, no, no. That was. That was normal. That was normal. But right away, stealing, like, right away. I would get jobs. The jobs came later. Like when I was 16. My first job was at Burger King.

[A]

Come sit on my lap.

[B]

Okay. Oh, boy.

[A]

Stage directions. Gary bounces around a couple of high schools. He's not. He's not doing. He's not doing well. Okay. He goes to, I guess the high school for bad kids. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is. This is just. Just a quick scene. Have a seat. From Gary's memoir.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Your stage direction. I'm the teacher. All right. And Gary's. Gary, we'll start with stage direction. Interior, Sunset High School.

[B]

Okay. Oh, God. Sunset.

[A]

Interior, Sunset High School. Classroom. Day. The last bell rings. Students file out. Gary Buechler, 17, wiry, restless, stays seated at his desk, but not by choice. He watches the other kids leave with the dead eyed patience of someone who's been through this before. The teacher, mid-40s, waits behind his desk, jaw tight, until the room empties a long beat of silence. Then he stands, walks slowly to Gary's desk and looks him dead in the eye. Beechler, I've had enough of you. Gary doesn't flinch. He looks right back.

[B]

Yeah. Is that right?

[A]

It absolutely is. I've had more than my feel of you. Way more.

[B]

You don't say.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I do say. You're wasting my time, Beechler. You're wasting everyone's time here. We both know you don't belong here at Sunset. You're never going to amount to anything ever. And as far as I'm concerned, I want you out of here. Gary stands up slowly. No fear. No hesitation.

[B]

Really, I've got the most amazing coincidence to share with you. I. I want the same goddamn thing. So here's my idea. What if you go fuck yourself?

[A]

The teacher's face goes red. He starts screaming. A full blown unhinged adult meltdown.

[B]

Gary has never seen anything like it.

[A]

Beechler, you cannot talk to a teacher like that. You useless piece of shit. They stare each other down. A long electric beat. Gary thinks for a couple of seconds. Then he makes his decision. He punches the teacher square in the mouth. Hard. The teacher goes down fast. He doesn't come back up. Gary looks at him on the floor. Looks at the door. He walks out. Fade to black.

[B]

Fade to black. That was the end of my school career.

[A]

Wow. Punched him right in the mouth.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That was a tense scene because I was waiting for him to punch you. I was ho. I wanted him to. I wanted him to punch you. And that was the end of your school career?

[B]

That was it.

[A]

Press charges?

[B]

No. Nope. No Nothing. I mean, dodged another bullet and I was partying so hard. If they could, they could have pressed charges or told my parents. Wouldn't have mattered. Like I was pretty much gone at that point.

[A]

What are they. What are your parents trying to do? Are they trying to intervene? Are they just.

[B]

My parents have given up at that point.

[A]

How do. What do you mean giving up? They're still letting you stay?

[B]

No, they. They booted me, so. Right. Yeah, they booted me. No. It was the greatest act of love my father ever showed me. My father, Arvin Beechler. He passed away in. In the early 2000s from cancer and was a great man. And I didn't recognize that he was a great man. Yep. Yep. And greatest act of love he ever showed me was to give me the boot. And I'm. And not look back. And I'm sure it killed him inside. At the time I thought he was a complete. And couldn't care less if he lived or died. My mom would enable. I was able to manipulate my mom and enable at times when I needed to. But mostly I was. I was on my own on the streets.

[A]

We'll keep it chronological, but just aside your story about your dad. I had the same story with the cancer and it sucks. It sucks to watch it. My dad Was a superhero to watch him get cancer. Just kick his ass.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did dad ever forgive you?

[B]

Yes. Yes. We. We reconciled. And we actually got really close towards the last right when I got out of. We won't get too far ahead. But after prison, we were the best of friends. Absolute the best of friends.

[A]

I was so happy to hear that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I couldn't believe they stuck with you.

[B]

I couldn't either.

[A]

All right, so you're. You punch the teacher in the mouth, no charges. What happens next? What are you, 16?

[B]

16. And it's just pure chaos. Staying, mostly staying at my friend's house. I mean, all the names were changed to protect the innocent and guilty.

[A]

Right. So this is Bobby.

[B]

Yes. And we stayed at the. It was called the Crystal Pal.

[A]

Dallas.

[B]

People from Encinitas will know it, so you'll know who I'm talking about. At the time in the 80s. And it was just a party house. It was a. It was not unlike the crass house in the uk. If you're familiar with the story of the Cross house, except there's no creative. Well, there was some creativity going on, but it was mostly just drugs. His dad was a bartender and would be gone all day, and when he came back, he was just checked out and didn't care. So drunk. Drunk. Completely drunk. Complete alcohol.

[A]

So this is perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, perfect.

[B]

Perfect, right? We had run. We had girls over all the time. And we were not, like, the coolest kids in school.

[A]

You weren't.

[B]

But we became that because we threw the parties. And it was. For a while, it was, like, lots of fun. And that was my, like, found family for a little while. Of course, it all went to pretty quick. You.

[A]

You seem to know pretty early on that you are making bad decisions that you're gonna have to pay for one day. How early, how young did you realize this is about this. I'm doing it anyway. But this is not gonna end well.

[B]

Yeah, I. I never thought I'd live to 30, so I'm like, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna ride this out now. I was not ever, like, suicidal, but I'm like, ah, you know this. But I never really gave it a ton of thought about the con. I knew the consequences were there, but I'm like, that's tomorrow.

[A]

That's tomorrow.

[B]

That's tomorrow. I'm gonna get. Because when you know the worst one

[A]

day at a time ever.

[B]

It is. That's why they teach you one day at a time, because that's pretty much how the addict goes about it. Is just today. I need to. I either have my drugs when I. If I wake up in the morning, if I'm not up all night, or I gotta find my drugs. And it's. It's. It's like feeding. It's like a shark feeding you. You have to have that. And then everything else can happen in jobs and fringe relationships, friends, girlfriends. None of that matters because the drugs are your God, and that's where the disease portion comes in. I think a lot of people fight back on this, and. And I get it. I get it. It's not a disease in the sense of, you know, like Parkinson's or. Or cancer. It's. It's a disease way worse. It's a disease that requires a conscious decision. So I think if anybody ever used the disease part as an excuse to, you know, to relieve them of any responsibility, that's. That's not. That's not what it means. It just means that our brain chemistry is different and not necessarily good. So we have an addictive personality to where, you know, there's just some people who can drink half a beer and leave it on the counter. I was never that person, and I don't think any addict is.

[A]

And I drink till it's. Till it's. Till it's dark, black, gone.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, but I was like that with my. My Halloween candy. Like, I couldn't. I ate it all one night.

[A]

You were instructed not to do that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So Crystal Palace, 16, 17. I guess we can fast forward to Bobby's in the back seat. What? Weighing out baggies. Because you're. Because you're dealing a little bit, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Mostly using, but dealing a little bit to make some cash.

[B]

Yeah, I was dealing to pretty much my friends or a couple of older people, but I knew everybody. I was dealing. I was never dealing to strangers or. It was usually just my fellow teenagers.

[A]

Just part of the party.

[B]

Yep. I was terrible at it.

[A]

I was awful. So Bobby's in the back. You're driving. You're. Is you. I think you. This is your Oldsmobile?

[B]

Yeah. 67 Oldsmobile. It was sweet. 22,000 miles on it. It was a sweet car. Got it from a little old lady who was a neighbor of my grandma.

[A]

Always the little old ladies where the good cars come from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't end well for the Olds either. So you're driving the Olds. Bobby's in the back weighing out baggies. Whoop, whoop, here we go. And you didn't get into it too much, but you knew this lady cop?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How did you know her, she had

[B]

busted us on enough times for like curfew and, and just little minor stuff, but little scraps here and there. But we used to hang out at pinball. Plus it was a arcade. It was in a. There was not much to do in Southern California in the 80s. In San Diego it is suburbia. So if there is an arcade, that's where every kid's going to go. And that's what we did.

[A]

Same.

[B]

So they started enforcing a curfew. So that's how we, we. We knew each other. And she really hated me, but I had.

[A]

She hated you because of your attitude?

[B]

Yeah, my attitude was like she had a good reason to. It's not like she didn't.

[A]

Because this anti authority thing goes through all this, right? She's. And she's the man. So she knocks on the windows. Ah, hey, Gary.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you were high officer. Hello.

[B]

And well, there's the Batman handcuffs. Right, so that's Right.

[A]

Is that why you got pulled over?

[B]

I got pulled over for Batman handcuffs hanging off my rearview mirror as an obstruction. She saw me and found an excuse and. Yeah. So we got busted and.

[A]

Hang on. She tossed the car.

[B]

Yeah. Tossed it.

[A]

You said she looked. She found that. Found the method. It was like she hit the lottery.

[B]

It was the greatest day of her life.

[A]

Abs. Absolutely. Been waiting for this all summer. Long scale.

[B]

Scale.

[A]

Intense. Distribute.

[B]

Yep. A scale. I told him to keep it fucking home, but he didn't. And that was the first time I really went to jail. No, that, that's it. Yeah, that was. I went for, you know, a couple weeks. Couple, three weeks.

[A]

Hold on a second. You go in, you get booked. I come from a cop family. I have this. Yeah, you get booked, you get separated and, and they want to know the story when they're, when they're writing you up.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Bobby fingered you. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he did.

[A]

Because you were just driving.

[B]

I. That's. I told the truth. I was just driving. But nobody's gonna believe that. It wasn't mine. But it really wasn't. But he's all, no, it was his.

[A]

So. Yeah. You didn't snitch.

[B]

I did. Bobby did.

[A]

And this. And you go to jail.

[B]

Yeah. And this is the first time. So we're in San Diego County Jail and it's. It's down near Union street, downtown C Street.

[A]

Are you nervous? You frightened?

[B]

Oh, totally, totally. Like this is like, what the hell is going on? And then we're, you know, do you

[A]

show it or you try to be tough?

[B]

I tried to Be tough. Don't know how much I pulled it off. Luckily, the chaos of the place probably kind of hid that because it was just a big dorm, right? And it was a big receiving dorm.

[A]

You didn't know at this point that this is nothing.

[B]

Oh, no clue.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

No clue got. Got out of that one.

[A]

How did mom and dad handle that?

[B]

Not very well. But my dad got a lawyer and said, this is the one time I'll help you.

[A]

If I'm. If I remember correctly, you technically got the lawyer, right?

[B]

Yeah. Well, yeah.

[A]

What do you say through the glass?

[B]

Oh, the, the lawyer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I. Do you know what I had to give up to get this lawyer, right?

[A]

I do. They don't.

[B]

Okay. I had to give up an Oldsmobile.

[A]

The Oldsmobile. The 67 Old. Because your dad said, I'm gonna get you this lawyer, but you're gonna pay for it.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

And you said, yes, sir.

[B]

Yes, sir. Of course.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Freedom for freedom. I didn't even think twice about it. I mean, it hurts now because I'm like, maybe I could have stayed in an extra week, but I had to give up that. And like, the engine was. It was spotless, dude. Like the painting on the, you know, I'm have to go off memory, but it said spitfire engine on. It was painted in red, and it was all original and was all still.

[A]

There was a 350.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah, 350. So your dad must have been so proud. Is his baby boy found his way. All problems are solved.

[B]

No, dad was not happy about any of this. And they, you know, you got to get clean. They did all that stuff, and I just kept partying. I just, you know, once, Once.

[A]

Once I was out and still. Booze and meth, right?

[B]

Booze, booze and meth. It became more meth. I was way more into speed because, like, I don't know, I, I, I smoke pot. I, I, I drank. But anything that kind of makes you feel tired, I was never really into. What's funny is like, well, it's not funny.

[A]

You and I would have got along so well. I would have been a great customer.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. When. When I can find, like, alternatives. I never, like, in the early days, maybe did coke a couple of times. That. That's later. But we found, like, Dexa Dream and the diet pills and stuff.

[A]

Like, oh, yeah, I'm familiar.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Love that stuff.

[A]

Me too. So now you start breaking into houses, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Pretty regularly. Cars and houses.

[A]

Cars and houses. And there was one that was so stupid so stupid. It was so heavy. Can you. Can you tell that story?

[B]

Well, is this okay? Well, you know, a lot of them are still the one with the. The pennies. Okay. So this is. This is so. Okay. This is. This shows you the insanity of drugs. I can't remember who I was with now.

[A]

We.

[B]

Some guy looked like he was in the Allman Brothers.

[A]

Right. I think you guys all look like that.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm. Half the people I'm hanging with at this point, I don't even know. So I get this great idea that we need money. I had none, but I know for a fact that my neighbor has this. The water bottles, when they were glass, I think some of them still are. Had one filled full of pennies. And I'm like, well, there's got to be 100 bucks in there. A couple hundred bucks maybe, you know, didn't think very much about, like, how heavy it would be.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So I knew how to get in their house, and I'm a genius. I cut a hole in the chain link fence.

[A]

To thinking you're just providing a trail of evidence.

[B]

Yeah, providing a trail. I might as well have just, like, left breadcrumbs out and said, this is Gary.

[A]

I wish I could see your face when you go to grab the penny and you go, yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, oh, this is really heavy. And I wasn't, like, in the best shape of the world. So, yeah, I get away with it for a little while, but then eventually I get caught. Yeah. But I got. I went and lost a year of my life.

[A]

You did a year for the pennies?

[B]

For the pennies. A water bottle full of pennies.

[A]

Still county.

[B]

Still county at this point. So we. Yeah, you. I went to.

[A]

Is this before the Porsche incident?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, God. Okay.

[B]

So. So it was. Yeah, I did county jail, and this is the fire camp and all that, so.

[A]

So you were. You're like, almost a volunteer fireman while you were in there.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

Serving the community, getting exercise outside. And you still screwed it up.

[B]

Absolutely screwed up. Almost immediately. I was in the best shape of my life. I got hurt, so I was able to manipulate that. That you got injury.

[A]

Is this. How did you get hurt?

[B]

I broke my tailbone.

[A]

First time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I broke my tailbone.

[A]

How?

[B]

Fuck it around. I was walking down a mountain and I was, like, pretending I was skiing. I was slipped and busted my tailbone, but I was able to, like, manipulate that into getting into a halfway house. Right. So, you know, the last little bit of my sentence wasn't Too bad, right? I got to, you know, go out once in a while.

[A]

So you get out, we'll fast forward a little bit. You go back to using, dealing, all that. And I forget how the chapter started, but the chapter started something like, you thought it would be a good idea to get a gun, and I've got an idea how to get one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I went, oh, no, I never had a gun.

[B]

And I was like, this, this is how stupid it is. So I didn't need to do anything.

[A]

You didn't care for your life?

[B]

No, no. I, I, I had a bunch of money.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I had a bunch of drugs.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

All I had to do was get high and have fun. I'm like, you know, I know a good way to screw this up.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I need a gun. So I'm gonna go to an ex girlfriend's house, to her dad's got a gun collection. I'm gonna break in while they're there. Some bored, you know, whatever was behind that, it wasn't, it wasn't like suicide or it was like, I'm gonna off myself. No, it was just like, I want a gun.

[A]

Never rob a gun guy's house.

[B]

No, go on. That's really.

[A]

Go on.

[B]

That's really dumb. So I get in.

[A]

You get into the garage, Right.

[B]

I get in through the garage on the side door and go into the house, and there's a little dog. So little dogs are the absolute best security. Big dogs, you can feed them or pet them. And like, some of them, not all, but little dogs will just bark and bark and bark and bark around this. This little dog was barking like crazy. So I'm like, okay, I gotta, I gotta pull the eject on this one. I gotta get out of here.

[A]

But hold on just a quick second. A little bit of a real Gary shows through here, because in your book, you say you thought for a second about killing the dog.

[B]

Yes, I could. I could have just, like, strangled the dog. And at that point, it wouldn't have mattered because you could, I could probably strangle it and you would have stopped barking. There's no way I'm gonna kill a dog. There's just no way in hell I was gonna kill a dog. So, so it's like, okay, time to go and went through the garage door. And this is where, like, you start thinking about higher power and fate. The door I just used to get on the side door for the garage. The door handle falls off. Falls off.

[A]

It's so cinematic. This, this story. Go on. So you're stuck in there.

[B]

I hide under a Porsche. There's not a lot of room to hide under.

[A]

No.

[B]

And her dad has got a gun in my. You know, pulls me out.

[A]

So you. But you see the feet, right?

[B]

I see the feet.

[A]

This is like in a movie.

[B]

Yeah. And that. Well, he can see me, too, so

[A]

of course he knows what's going on.

[B]

So I get out, I see the feet. I'm like. I'm just waiting to get. I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not getting out of this one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I've got a gun in my face.

[A]

Did he say. Did he recognize you? No.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

So, hey, Gary, now there's a gun on your face.

[B]

Now there's a gun in my face. And he's mad as hell and his hand is shaking, and you can see the bullets in the chamber. And I'm like, oh. And I got my life saved by a cop. You know, a cop. They called the cops. And I didn't get shot in the face. And I'm sure you, you know, the cop, like, you know, he's on the Navy pistol team. Like, I could have shot you from 50 yards right between the eyes.

[A]

He probably wanted to.

[B]

Probably wanted to. And I ended up writing him a letter, like, later on.

[A]

So. During your recovery?

[B]

Yeah, during my recovery.

[A]

That was like a make amends type of thing. Yeah.

[B]

Never heard back, but I'm sure he got it.

[A]

That's. That's what's important.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But that was when I went in for a long. Because I had the prior.

[A]

Now you've got priors. And now I guess it's. It's a hot prowl. So B and E, that's a hot.

[B]

It's a first degree burglary.

[A]

First degree burglary, yeah. So I guess you go to county for booking, but you are not going to stay in County.

[B]

No, no. This was. I go into county until we, you know, sentencing and everything, and then it's off to prison. You get a little bit of time served from your time in County. Off to prison.

[A]

Before you go to prison, you're in county. And just talk a little bit about that, because I remember there was a. There was a dude in there who gave you advice that was kind of interesting because there's also. There's the fear of prison. Then you're going to all these places, but there's also a weird brotherhood and camaraderie and kind of looking out for each other sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this guy gave you advice? It was. I thought Was very strange. But it worked out.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe I was. I mean, I was 22 at the time, so I looked like a pup.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, somebody took sympathy on me and just like, hey, you're going to go to prison. Here's. Here's some rules. You know, they're pretty basic rules. And I'll paraphrase what's in the book. I'll try to keep it, you know, take your time. Politically correct, but it was, well, you know, don't mess with gambling.

[A]

Mh.

[B]

Don't mess with the gays. That's not the word he used.

[A]

Now, hold on a second. I think that advice is before you go in to Folsom, I'm talking about the guy who said, you're going to get a plea deal. Take it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry, sorry. So, yes, I'm going to get a plea deal. Absolutely. Take it. Don't fight it. Because if you don't, you will end up doing a lot more time.

[A]

So he says, go in there, be cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you'll get out.

[B]

Yep. Just take. Take your time. There's no way fighting this. You're. You're going to prison, like. And, you know, I knew that. And we were looking at it. I got the mid sentence, so I got everything he said I was gonna get.

[A]

What'd you get?

[B]

I got. I got four years, but you do too.

[A]

How did you feel when you turned around at the courthouse and saw mom and dad sitting there?

[B]

Horrible. It was the worst feeling in my life. Looking at your parents in the face after you get sentenced to four years in prison and they adopted you. They raised you.

[A]

Did your father look at you?

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was pretty shameful. They look crushed. They look crushed.

[A]

Yeah. Because they stood by you through all this.

[B]

But it was. Yeah, that was tough, man. That was not. Not good. And then getting in that bus and

[A]

you're on the bus for hours and

[B]

hours, hours and like, shackled up.

[A]

It's just like what you think is in the movie is how this is just as bad as you think it is, is how this is. And when did you find out you were going to. Going to old Folsom? You're going to the. You're going to the Johnny Cash.

[B]

I got ahead of that. Sorry.

[A]

It was because you're not supposed to go there, I don't think.

[B]

No, no, no. They were doing something they shouldn't have been doing. But it's due to overcrowding, so I stayed. Donovan was a receiving facility in San Diego. I got stuck there for four months. You usually stay there for like a month and they farm you out. I was a level 2, so not considered. Even though first degree burglary is considered a violent crime. I was not considered violent in the sense of armed robber or murder or rape or any of the horrible ones. Those are level three, level four. So I find out I'm going to Folsom and there's two Folsoms. There's new Folsom at the time. It still is.

[A]

It's that first facilities at El Cajon Donovan.

[B]

So it's, it's east of Elko. It's like an Otai Mesa.

[A]

No, but El Cajon was a facility you were in, right?

[B]

So El Cajon was a county jail. Oh yeah, right. El Cajon was. That's the one where there was the breakout.

[A]

Oh yeah, you were there for the breakout.

[B]

Quick little side story here. So Elk, there's a, the biggest building in El Cajon, California, which is the box, which is, which, I mean that's what you know. And it's. And it's in the eastern part of San Diego. So it's not. Well, probably all the houses are, are million dollar houses there now. But at the time wasn't looked at as the nicest place in the world. So the tossed building was the jail. And apparently the contractor like cut a little, cut some corners and didn't reinforce the walls with whatever they're supposed to reinforce with concrete or steel or whatever. So it was just stucco and framing.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And somebody figured it out.

[A]

Someone just knocked on it and said, that feels pretty hollow.

[B]

Yeah, pretty hollow. So let's, let's break off the bottom of our bunk and just punch a hole in it and you can look it up. It was in the 80s, the big breakout that got it closed.

[A]

And you was there, you saw, and you saw them escaping, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you think, hey, I'm going to get in on that?

[B]

I thought about it for a second and I'm like, well, for one as a long way down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, no, I'm just going to, going to do my thing. That was, that was the first time around. So I'm glad I did that, you know, I'm glad I did. I listen, they caught everybody. They caught everybody. And one of the guys busted his leg because they did the whole tying the sheets together crap. Really? Yeah, they did because it was up there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it was like, I can't remember the exact amount of stories, but it was at least five. Right. And they caught Everybody. And then they shut down the jail. The problem was they locked us down after that for. For two weeks. And they weren't feeding us all the time.

[A]

So what is lockdown really mean?

[B]

Locked? Lockdown is you are in your cell. You don't get out without.

[A]

With. With one celly.

[B]

No, with like, six.

[A]

So you're there with six guys for weeks, being fed through the bars.

[B]

Through the bars.

[A]

One toilet.

[B]

Supervised shower. Like, once we. I think we got two. Right. Supervised shower.

[A]

Oh, it's just rank.

[B]

It was rank. So we. I was. I remember eating ketchup packets because that's all I had to eat. And we had Uno.

[A]

You just played Uno.

[B]

Just played Uno and had one book. I think one book between it. Us. It's like. It was terrible. It was terrible.

[A]

At least it wasn't magic, you know?

[B]

Right. It could always be worse, but. Yeah. So the PR on the prison side. Yeah. Go to Folsom, and we find out that they're doing this transition thing. So they're turning old Folsom into a level two, and they're removing all the level four guys, and they're putting them up to Pelican Bay.

[A]

And level four guys are the hardcore.

[B]

They're murderers, rapists, and they're gonna throw

[A]

you pups in with them.

[B]

Worst of the worst. And they did. And they did. Yeah. So we had level twos in with level fours, which is. You're just not supposed to do that because the lot. The last thing a guy with a life sentence wants to hear is the stories from a guy who's gonna get out in a couple years. That's a recipe for disaster.

[A]

Well, you're walking in shackles, chains, and what, you. You've got your long hair.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I guess. Is that your first prison taunt?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

This is just like, he's man.

[B]

And. And Donovan never really got any. I think everybody in the receiving part is just kind of like pins and needles, waiting to figure out sure to go, so. And it's way more supervised. It's like, max, Max, Max there. Because. Because you are mixing in all the levels. Because. But it's. It's. You know, you spend most of your time in your cell. It's not a ton of yard time. And I never spent much time in the yard, but, yeah. When I walk into Folsom. Got my beautiful long blonde hair and shows you how much I've aged. And. Yeah. Guy goes, hey, Goldilocks, you want my sack lunch? I'm like, I need to cut my hair. You know? And it was right when I walked. So I knew it was to me, by the way, like, I'm like, of course they were. They had us in a line and then we're feeding them in and, like, there's this big. Just wall of cells how you're terrified.

[A]

And now you go up to 11.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. 12. Because beyond terrified and like, I don't know exactly. Stop. But it doesn't say, oh, it's balls. It's your balls.

[A]

No. Okay, so now you're going through the rules that you're. That someone told you here, you're go. You're going gladiator school, as you called it. Oh, God. Which it was. So now you're going through the rules, right? And you got to get rid of the hair.

[B]

Got to get rid of the hair.

[A]

And what are some of the rules you're thinking as you're. As you're.

[B]

So the rules I was told that I was referring to earlier are, do not gamble. Do not mess with gays. No problem. I. No interest in. In those.

[A]

Just be polite and leave alone.

[B]

Do not do drugs. Do not mess with any drugs. And at that point in my life, I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to mess with any drugs. I don't. You know, I've. I had already decided, like, if I survive this, I'm done. I cannot do this. And then do not snitch, no matter what. And if you're gonna fight, fight. You have to fight. You can't back down from a fight.

[A]

Right? Don't. Don't start trouble.

[B]

Take it, but don't take it. Yep. But the most important one of them all is don't snitch or you will die, Bobby. Yep. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I don't mean to drag it out, but it's fascinating. Okay, so sack lunch, how do you. How do you get it? Yeah, you have to get your hair cut in, like, 30 yard. You have 30 yards.

[B]

I got this problem immediately. It was for a pack of smokes. It was a terrible haircut, but it did the job.

[A]

It's like, didn't a guard help you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Help you grab scissors or something?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So it's. It's. I mean, they. There is some humanity in there, right? Like, they see this little pup, and it's like, this guy's gonna get just shredded in here. So that's. That's my best guess. But I got. I got my haircut, I got help. Guards aren't always helpful, though. Okay. Just keep that in mind. They're humans. So there's some good ones and there's some pieces of crap in there. And I spend the next. I'm behind the wall for a good year. Right. So.

[A]

Well, one of the rules was don't go to the yard. Don't go to the gym.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which I did not do, but there

[A]

were some times that you had to get away from your first cellmate because he. I mean, when you land in the room with him, how does that go down?

[B]

Oh, it's bad. It's bad.

[A]

With Kyle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. He's.

[B]

He's double murderer. He's a piece of crap.

[A]

What do you look like?

[B]

He was a. Just a. Like a. Kind of a flabby, but big white dude. It's brown hair, little grayish. But he was not old. He was not that old.

[A]

I'm just trying to feel how imposing he is for.

[B]

He's bigger than me. He's bigger than me for sure.

[A]

So how's that first meeting go?

[B]

Scared to death. You know, and he's. He just gives me the rules and pretty much tells me, you know, I don't want to hear from you. You know, he has his tv, and. And I'm like, well, maybe I could just wait this one out. But it just. It didn't work out well.

[A]

He didn't. Like. He's a level four, this guy.

[B]

He's a level four, and he doesn't

[A]

want to hear about you getting out in two.

[B]

Nope. Nope. So I was really good at being quiet when I needed to be.

[A]

What were you doing to kill time?

[B]

To kill. Mostly reading books.

[A]

Because there was another rule about staying sane, wasn't there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

Oh, the.

[A]

Find a routine.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Yes. So the thing about the best advice I heard is. And like, people do this in prison all the time, so I didn't invent it. This is just passed down, is find a routine. You get up at the same time. You kind of do the same things every day. And what it does is it helps you feel accomplished because we as humans need to feel some accomplishment. So I. I found a little routine that worked in behind the Wall, and then when I. When I went on. And it really helps the time go faster. It keeps you busy, so you're not sitting there. You need to have that routine so you're not sitting there just tripping all the time.

[A]

You talk about how Kyle was, like, mentally torturing you this whole time. What was he doing? Because he wasn't physically abusing you.

[B]

No, he was just always.

[A]

What was he because you write about how it was just constant. He was just. Always. Just messing with you.

[B]

Always messing with my head.

[A]

Always.

[B]

He would. He would always question, like, everything I was doing, like, what are you reading? What's your problem? He would never let me have peace. Right. Because I would try to mind my own business and stay there. And he'd always try to start some weird conversation that would go to a weird place and ask me weird questions and then bring up, like, his crimes, you know, and what he did.

[A]

And you knew he was just trying to torture.

[B]

Yep. Trying to fudge with me all the time. And. And then he'd be nice a little while, and then it would flip, you know? But we. You bring up the pruno, right? We can talk about when.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

I don't want to get too far ahead, but.

[A]

No, I know when we're gonna take our break.

[B]

Oh, yeah. So gone. He's. He was making some pruno and hiding it and he was gone. And the guard is. The guards are coming in to do. To do an inspection, and I'm. I'm there because I don't go out very much.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I dumped it.

[A]

You dumped his pruno?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Did you know that decision you did you. How long you know what you're doing? You know you're going to have to deal with this. Yeah, but you figure, what, you're saving him or are you like, I'm going to. This is going to go sideways.

[B]

This is. This at. My decision making at the time was not really even a cover. It was cover both of our asses. Right.

[A]

But it was because you were going.

[B]

Yeah, because I'm there, so I'm going to get caught with it. And he's the cellmate, so he's going to get busted too. And there's all this stuff going through my head where. Oh, you know, you think about the snitching thing, right? It's going to make me either way look like a snitch. So I'm like.

[A]

And you're watching them toss cells getting closer as you're doing this.

[B]

So I'm like, I'm gonna dump this stuff.

[A]

And Kyle, by the way, is out in the yard lifting weights. Yeah.

[B]

Lifting weights. Lifting weights. So I got rid of it and it's. It's gone by the time the guards there. I saved his ass. My. Well, his ass. Yeah, his ass wasn't exactly grateful about that at all. And wanted me to repay whatever it was owed, whatever that value of that pruno was. And. And did not let me forget it so ever.

[A]

He wanted you to put money in his account, right?

[B]

Money on his books.

[A]

Money on his books. 20 bucks for the pruno. I want it. You did it?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And thought it was good. And I don't know how soon after that, but he said, I need 20 bucks.

[B]

Yeah. It just became the, you know, I need 20 more. And then once you capitulate a little bit, you know, that's just the way it is. And that's. That's. This is part of like, don't be a bitch.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Right. This is part of don't be a bitch. And I. I should have said you, you know, at that point and probably fought at that point.

[A]

Well, you didn't give him 20 more, right?

[B]

No. No. And it. And it got worse.

[A]

It gets worse. And you get back to the cell and he's going through your stuff.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What's he doing?

[B]

He's going through mom's, my letters. He's going through my letters.

[A]

And this whole time parents are supporting you. They're putting money on your books. You're covered.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You have support from the family. This guy's got nothing. He hates you.

[B]

He hates everything about me. He hates the books I read. I mean, like he's giving. He gave me for books I read.

[A]

He wanted you to fight.

[B]

Oh, he's been trying to taunt me to fight the whole time. And well, he finally got what he wanted. So he. He's going through my letters. My parents and I, by the way, are contacting and they're know. They're sending me like little care packages and making sure I'm okay. They're worried to death because they know I'm in this fulsome prison. So they're trying to work outside with a couple of other people trying to figure out what the going on. Right. To no avail, by the way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And yeah, he's like, I. I like your mom's handwriting. I like your mom's handwriting. Think I want to write your mom. And I just lost my. Absolutely lost my shit.

[A]

He demands you to tell your mom to start writing him as well. And now you feel it. You feel all men feel this. Things go quiet. You hear the in your ears. And you're not gonna take it anymore.

[B]

No, to hell with that. Whatever happens after this, like this is. And it had been building up, like you said, like just with the constant, like, poking. And some of it would just, you know, in isolation it wouldn't be that bad. But when you're living, think of the worst roommate you've ever had. But he's also a murderer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's what it is. A guy who, like, steals your food or, you know, like art. I don't want to get too crass in there. Just when you're in a cell with somebody and they're going to the bat. It's just the worst. It's the worst. And so you.

[A]

The blood's in your ears and everything's going. And it's going to go down. So we're going to take a quick break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We'll find out how you handled it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Be right back. It's. It's the standoff now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not going to take anymore. He's going. Mama's not going to write him a letter, right?

[B]

No, no. Over my dead body. So. And that's where. Where I was at. Had a little Walkman.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yep. Because we were. You were allowed, like, believe it or not, even in Max Prison. You can have a tv, you can have a Walkman, you know, you were

[A]

getting comics and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, you can get comics and books and. And cigarettes and stuff. They don't allow people to smoke in prison anymore. I don't know. That sounds terrible.

[A]

I don't know why would they would do that?

[B]

I don't know. Smoke for the safety of the guards.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

So, yeah, I. I go hysterically off on that. So it's not like some heroic moment, you know. Avengers assemble, you know?

[A]

It wasn't.

[B]

No, no, it was this.

[A]

This was fight or flight?

[B]

Panic. Fight or flight Panic. Spazzy fighting. Think Ralphie and A Christmas Story, you know, like toe to toe.

[A]

Could you take this guy?

[B]

I mean, I did so well.

[A]

How did you. I mean, I had.

[B]

Well, I. I had a Walkman in my hand and I bashed his face in.

[A]

So it's a very Gen X with the Sony products. Very Gen X.

[B]

Well, it was what was in my hand at the time.

[A]

You bashed his face in.

[B]

I bashed his face in and bashed it in pretty good. And he go down? Yeah, he went down. Down and out, down and out. Blood everywhere. And I'm like, I'm going to the hole.

[A]

I was just gonna ask. The adrenaline comes down and, you know, you're going to the home screwed.

[B]

I'm going to the hole. I'm gonna get more time, put on my.

[A]

Just what he wanted.

[B]

Yep. And that didn't happen. Which is insane. Right. So I did a little time, but as far as getting extra time added to my sentence. Doesn't happen.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Doesn't happen.

[A]

Why not the whole. Where'd you go?

[B]

It's a mist. It's a. Well, it's a mystery. Why? Because my biggest concern at the time was it's. Am I they going to think I snitched? That was my biggest concern. So my guess is a, the guards knew what was going on or another. And I never knew the answer to this at all. But it just kind of got a new cellmate, you know? Got a new cellmate. Little crazy still. But not as.

[A]

But not violent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you ever run into that guy again?

[B]

No, never did.

[A]

It probably was. Someone was like, we got to get these tier twos out of here, man.

[B]

No. And he was supposed to go to Pelican Bay anyway. Like, he was like. All the level fours were supposed to go to Pelican Bay, Right.

[A]

They're still kind of going through that transition.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So you get placed with. With a new cellmate, and he's tier two, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So are you able to relax?

[B]

Relax a little bit. And then, you know, I took a printing class in there, and I never really went to the yard or did anything after that. And then it was finally over when I went to the minimum security part of.

[A]

Well, hang on a second.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He would. This guy was a big part of your recovery?

[B]

I'm getting way ahead of myself, so,

[A]

I mean, who was he? He's violent. What was he. What was he like?

[B]

He was actually a really, like a nice guy. He was a nice guy. There are nice guys in there?

[A]

Of course there are. I believe it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, just made a bunch of mistakes in his life, like I did.

[A]

They only put the ones that get caught in there.

[B]

And me needing to get out of the other of the cell, like. And I didn't really want to go to church. I tried it a couple of times. It really didn't do it.

[A]

Where's church come from? Why were you even thinking about church?

[B]

Oh, I. I needed to get out of the cell, for one, but I also needed to not come back here. Like, well, and. And I was.

[A]

Didn't he tell you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Here are. Here are some things you can do to make this go a little easier for yourself. Two options, right? Church and meetings.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So what happens?

[B]

Church doesn't work for me.

[A]

And he was a church religious guy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, he was a religious religious guy. And I started going to the meetings, and it wasn't like. And this is a. Yeah, this is aa. They did do NA ones in there, but I just gravitated to the AA and the reason and it's the same reason I gravitated to it outside is there's just more time. In aa, you could still. The principles are still the same. People are talking about alcohol. I could just, I could just apply it to drugs and it's fine. So it starts kicking in. I go to these meetings and it

[A]

kicks in for the first time. Right? Because you've been through crash, you've been through meetings. It didn't take you, it didn't take. Now it finally starts to take because you didn't go to those meetings initially for any other reason than to just make it easier inside, Right. Or you said, I'm going to get clean now, I'm going to share.

[B]

It was just self preservation. Self preservation. I. I wish it was something bigger than that. But it started. That's when it started kicking in, like, oh, and you know, when you're in the meeting and you're hearing people tell the stories and like half the people in those meetings were there just to get out of their cell. But the guy leading the meeting, you know, from H and I, hospitals and institutions from aa, they're there because they're serious, Right. And especially to volunteer. It takes a special kind of person to volunteer for H and I to want to go inside a prison.

[A]

Takes a very good person to do that. Better than I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When did it click? What was the. What was the conversation? What was going around the circle suddenly switched.

[B]

It started clicking. It was just through time, but just hearing over and over again that, like, life can get better. Like, it's not necessarily over. You know, I don't know if I fully believed it at the time, but it started clicking really just over time, and. And it stayed with me. I'm not going to say I was like, ready to be a sober warrior at that point, but I had decided, like I told you earlier on, like, I do not want to come back here. This is horrifying. So the best way to describe prison is. It is really, it is boredom occasionally interrupted by moments of terror, just complete terror. But there's always an underlying, like you sleeping with one eye open. You got to worry about absolutely everything. If somebody gives you a dirty look in there, it means something. And that's probably going to, you know, because you are trapped with these people and that will probably come to a head at some point, and that's always rolling around in the back of your head.

[A]

But once again, some people looking out for you always have a routine so you don't go crazy. And then this new cellmate says, you need a plan.

[B]

You need a plan.

[A]

What does he mean by that?

[B]

You need a plan for life. Like you can't just get out and think everything's going to be okay. And this is something like a father would tell a kid, right? You need to have a plan.

[A]

And what's your, what's your plan?

[B]

And my plan was really simple. To get sober, to get a job and then implement. I don't think I've verbally said this, but the, the, or, or implement the routine in, in life. So that routine I was learning in prison, I actually applied it afterwards.

[A]

You did?

[B]

It was really helpful. It was really helpful.

[A]

What kind of routine was it? It was just the day to day that.

[B]

So the day today. This carried on from, from when I went on to, to, to the minimum security, right?

[A]

You got moved finally, yeah, moved finally.

[B]

And in minimum security I would, I was doing a lot of working out. I was either playing racquetball because we had racket handball, we had this big track you can walk or run laps on. And it. And I also had a job. I had this crazy job that taught me how to work. And it like this is where the rehabilitation of prison actually worked on one person. So I had this, this gig at procurement in the procurement office.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Basically we did all the purchasing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For the prison, particularly in my area was just writing up all the drug orders, which is funny, right?

[A]

You're dealing drugs again.

[B]

So I'm writing up all the drug orders because the new Folsom wing had a psychiatric wing. Sure. So I was doing all the drug orders for them. And I worked for a lady. I should say her real name.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

It's funny, she was, she always wore purple. She always wore frickin purple. And I was her little boy toy by the way. Like she, she's like, oops, I dropped something, you know. Okay, yeah, stuff like that. I used to be young and pretty, but yeah, it was, it was get up, get up 5:30 in the morning, get my breakfast. Either walk a lap before I go to work or walk two laps before I go to work. Go to work, come back, go play some racquetball or handball with the guys. And it was just do that every day.

[A]

Were you behaving at your job and all that? You were? Yeah, getting along with everybody.

[B]

Getting along with everybody.

[A]

Are you counting down the days now?

[B]

Counting down the days. They're still long. I mean, you know, there's still like a year out.

[A]

This is why you're so good at counting George Martin's days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're counting days. That's what you do.

[B]

I do. That's what I do. I keep track, George. So. Yeah.

[A]

And what are the last few days like? Isn't it, you know, 60, 59, 50. I mean, is it torture?

[B]

It's torture, dude. Is absolute torture. And the anxiety of am I gonna up again?

[A]

Right? Is it, am I really getting out?

[B]

Yep. Is something? Is there?

[A]

What's gonna happen?

[B]

What's gonna happen? You know, that, that, and that really starts messing with, with you towards the end.

[A]

I bet it does.

[B]

Like, what if some charge is found, you know, Cuz, listen, I didn't get caught for everything I did.

[A]

Of course not.

[B]

Y8.

[A]

76. You still. Parents are still supporting you?

[B]

Parents are still supporting me. I'm on my routine. I'm starting to, like, lose it a little bit towards the end, though. I'm starting to go away and just anxiety, just pure anxiety.

[A]

How did you cope?

[B]

Not well. I, I, I didn't sleep very much, but I tried to work out more. So and by workout, I mean just exercise, do some sort of like, you know. But it was obsessive, right? It got really obsessive, but it was like, you know, running laps or playing racquetball or playing it by myself.

[A]

So this is a very different facility than you're coming from. It had to feel like vacation.

[B]

It, it did. Like, we, yeah, there was like a little garden where we grew chili peppers. We were, we'd sit out in tan. It's, it's, it's near Sacramento. It's right near Folsom Lake.

[A]

You were supposed to be there the whole time?

[B]

Yes. I was not supposed to be behind the wall at all. Ever. And, or maybe for a couple weeks.

[A]

Did you run into other tier twos? At, At, Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, what the hell? That was terrible. That sucked. But for the, for the level twos, I, I had a. Usually had more time than they did, so they were all getting out before me, which kind of sucked. But watching them. Hey, have fun, buddy.

[A]

But, yeah, like, but you weren't a dick about it. You already saw.

[B]

What, how that works. No, no, not at all.

[A]

Leave them alone.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then we, yeah, we, I mean, we'd, we'd have this thing called spreads where we make a bunch of food. We'd steal some food out of the kitchen, or the, the cook would just give us some food and we'd make these big things of ramen and chop every piece of meat we could figure out, and it was just this gobbledygook of. Of stew with top ramen that we. And that was our, like, party night. We watched football and. Yeah, it was kind of smoked cigarettes and it.

[A]

You know, when you heard, like, bola brown at King's Landing, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Bowl of brown. Yeah.

[B]

Singer stew.

[A]

Yeah. So the day finally comes.

[B]

Day finally comes, and my parents pick me up, and they. I. So I go out the main gate of Folsom.

[A]

There was a beat I liked in your book about the guard who. Who came to get you. Because he was the same guard, that badass guard who let you in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He was still there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Little smile in his eyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You did it, kid.

[B]

Yeah. You made it.

[A]

You made it.

[B]

You made it. And it was. I wish I could bottle, like, the feeling I had that day because I wanted for nothing. No material thing had any value to me. It was pure freedom. So that was the first day I understood what, like, liberty and freedom is. It's something I completely took for granted and never thought about as a kid.

[A]

How soon did it kick in?

[B]

Like, the minute I walked out and just open sky, no one sky, no walls. My mom and dad smiling to see me. And, you know, you just. You don't have to sign very much paperwork. You just sign a couple things and get your stuff back. Got my. Got my clothes back that I went in on, and I'm like, wow, I actually lost weight in here, you know, so. Yeah.

[A]

You weren't doing well for a while in there.

[B]

No, no, I was not. Not doing well. And I got out pretty much in shape, but. Yeah. So back to that feeling of gratitude, Just pure gratitude of, like, I am free, my life isn't over. Because I. I was convinced for the longest time, even before I went into prison. We talked about it earlier, that my life was just over.

[A]

Sure. Just.

[B]

It's done. Like, we're gonna play it out. It's going to be a sad, pathetic ending.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And I'm like, wow, I have a chance to do this, and I don't want for a bunch. I don't have any lofty goals.

[A]

Just one. Don't go back in there.

[B]

Don't go back in. And don't go back in. Yeah. So I had the best meal of my life, which was, you know, an omelette at Denny's.

[A]

Denny's. I mean, your home.

[B]

It was.

[A]

It's America.

[B]

Greatest food, greatest meal I've ever had.

[A]

And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what's the conversation like at that breakfast? Are we. Are we laughing we're crying, we're laughing,

[B]

we're talking about just what's ahead, you know? My dad was not like a real sentimental guy, so we were just like, yeah, we talk about the Chargers and Padres and how crappy they were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it's funny because it's right before they, they went for their first Super bowl.

[A]

Oh, that's right. Early 90s.

[B]

Yeah. But there was like, Bobby Ross had come around and they've been to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. So we had stuff to talk about, but it was really light. Right. And you know, they were pretty. A matter of factly, like, you got to find a job. You can't, like, stay with us forever. I'm like, okay, fair.

[A]

No talking back, no attitude.

[B]

Nope. Just I was being a good kid. Right. And with a new lease on life and a new attitude towards life and waking up every morning was fricking great. I, like, I could just, and I do things like just take a walk and ride my bike to the beach, you know, in between looking for a job. But yeah, I didn't need any money. Didn't need any of that stuff. I had a place to stay, but eventually I would, I would need that money.

[A]

Were you craving drugs?

[B]

No.

[A]

Booze, anything?

[B]

No. Went to, started going to meetings immediately you did? Yeah, immediately. There was no, none of that. And wasn't seeking out my old friends. That, that's, that's usually what gets any addict in trouble, especially after they get out of a rehab or anything. And that's what I got in trouble is like I immediately sought out my old friends, which means let's party. I did not, I didn't let anybody know I was back. Didn't know if anybody knew I was back or gone or anything, and just kind of did my own thing. Hung out with my parents and eventually contacted a couple of friends. But I knew who were outside of the, like an old childhood friend, and he eventually gave me a job.

[A]

Well, before that, you said, don't run into old friends, but you did.

[B]

I did.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

It was sad, but I, I,

[A]

I'm also talking about that meeting.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

People from the neighborhood were there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of surprising to when we ran into each other.

[A]

What happened? Who was there?

[B]

I'm trying not to use. I had a couple of older friends. Yeah. Cool seeing ball sack there.

[A]

So these are all guys you, these part. You partied with drugs?

[B]

It was a shock, but I'm sure they were just as shocked see me

[A]

were you Frightened a little bit like, oh, no, relapse, here we go

[B]

at that meeting. Yeah, that's always that. I mean, the fear is always in there. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But it was also, now that I look back on it, a little inspiring to see some of the old, of course, old people come through and, and make it and we, you know, there's, there's some I ended up staying friends with forever, you know, and to this day, some who didn't make it. But yeah, that, like, seeing that, that was like, I guess the first test, I guess, you know, and one of

[A]

those, he, one of those guys became your first sponsor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know about sponsorship at that time?

[B]

I did. I just never, like, really took it seriously. Right.

[A]

Eventually you learned how important it is

[B]

and then you learn how absolutely necessary it is.

[A]

So he was clean a while. Tell me about that conversation.

[B]

It was, I mean, he, he's knew what I've been through. Right. And then, like, more than anybody else, I, I honestly don't know if it was the best, the best choice for sponsor, to be honest with you. Maybe not, Maybe not, but it's. I just didn't want to go back. It was, it was really simple, you know, I was. I didn't want to die. I didn't want to die.

[A]

So he asked you to make a commitment and you agreed to it.

[B]

Yes. Did you keep your word to my commitments of him?

[A]

I mean, I know how it works. You're there for each other.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Pick up the phone, you show up, you do the work, you come back tomorrow, you call. Did you do all that stuff?

[B]

I did all that stuff in the beginning and I did it when I relapsed to the thing. And like, I don't want to get ahead with the relapse, but there's, there's a commitment you need to make that.

[A]

I'm just trying to stress what a big decision it is once you take on, become a sponsor. It's. It's a big deal.

[B]

It is usually it's 90 meetings in 90 days and you have to write gratitude lists. Like both sponsors maybe do it. One was way more hardcore than the other, though. You have to do a ton of homework. You have to meet. You have to basically do your own book study with you. So we sit down and we go over chapters of the book. And this is on top of going to meetings that are, that are book. Because there are book specific meetings.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Where you just go through the chapters.

[A]

Yep. And then you're now like working the

[B]

steps and doing work in the steps. And it's not just once. So I. My, my. I thought it was just once. You did the steps. Now you just recycle and keep going through and through until it really gets ingrained.

[A]

Well, step four is never over, is it?

[B]

Never over.

[A]

That's inventory.

[B]

Yes. The personal inventory. And we're always making new mistakes. Right. And it's work that's never done.

[A]

That's a very important step, that self awareness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're working the program. Things are going good. You get a job at the warehouse.

[B]

At the warehouse.

[A]

How's that? How's that first day feel?

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

Warehouse is what? Music videos. So that's a West Coast. I'm from New York. I'd never heard of it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, the warehouse is. Yeah, it's. It's a record store that's also a video store.

[A]

This is perfect for you because you're a pop culture junkie going in, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. So are you like, this is. This is perfect.

[B]

It's heaven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's absolute heaven. And I've always wanted. Well, I've worked at the warehouse before in the past.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

I did. But for like, I never worked very. Anywhere long because I was a drug addict. So this was like. Well, now that I know how to have this thing called a work ethic from prison. I. I learned that from prison. Going to. Getting up at five in the morning every day, going to work. It was. It was amazing working there. Pay was a great. Who cares? It was enough.

[A]

Your parents had to be so proud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you were going in every day.

[B]

I think they were probably always waiting for.

[A]

Always waiting.

[B]

Always waiting. And it. It didn't happen. Like, I. I went to work, took extra shifts, had tons of fun, met a bunch of friends there. Had had some rough times, you know, like, there's still the adapting I had to get used to.

[A]

Yeah, there is that story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the altercation.

[B]

Yeah. I just. Some old guy and I got into it and.

[A]

Well, tease it out. He walks in, he's waving the thing around.

[B]

He's waving a video around.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I. He's given me a bunch of attitude.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

It was over a return and it was late or something. It was some violation, whatever. And. And once he started getting disrespectful to me and he was angry at me. Right. I have the. The. The prison defense mechanism comes in, so I feel like I'm being disrespected. So this is like, you know, still early on. This took me years to get Rid of this stuff. Because I was. I was. I wasn't. It wasn't like I was floating on cloud nine the whole time I was out. I was. There was. There's certain things that would. You know, I guess trigger is your lack of a better word. Trigger. The defense mechanisms from prison. I definitely had. I had trouble sleeping for. If you want to call it ptsd. Sure. I mean, for a decade, I had trouble sleeping.

[A]

No, it is ptsd. It's not. It is ptsd. That's a thing that ex cons have. You come out of war, you come out of prison, you have ptsd. And you did. And so you felt you're disrespected. What happened with the guy?

[B]

I shouted him down, and I had to get. I almost. I. I got written up, and my friend had to. You know, the friend who gave me the job.

[A]

You didn't put hands on, right?

[B]

No, no, no. Hands on. We were just yelling. We were yelling at each other pretty good.

[A]

Like, this is terrible customer service.

[B]

It's horrible customer service. Because, like, it's retail. Customers come in and yell. You just go, yes, sir, I will. It was really easy. All I had to do.

[A]

Who cares? Just give them the tape.

[B]

Just give him what he wanted and walk away. But I took it as a personal. So I get written up and. You know.

[A]

But I love the conversation you have with Don in the back room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because he asked you what happened, but it wasn't a casual thing because he's like, no, seriously, what's going on?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It wasn't like, what happened with the.

[A]

Right.

[B]

With the situation. It's like, what's going. It was like an actual caring.

[A]

Because he's in the program and. What'd you say?

[B]

Oh, I just. I just told him exactly that I felt disrespected. And it just. Everything just clicked, you know, my defense mechanism. I just lost my. You know, and it's just. And I. It was. It was understood. But it was also said that, like, you. This cannot go on. Like, you gotta.

[A]

Did you get fired?

[B]

No, I got written up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I got written up, which was. I should have brought. I should have been fired.

[A]

Ah, maybe. I don't know.

[B]

Ah, he was gonna fire me. He wasn't gonna.

[A]

No.

[B]

But, like, I felt terrible if you

[A]

did it again, maybe.

[B]

And the thing is, like, later on, like, me and that old guy got along famously after course.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

So I, like, I just treated him nice.

[A]

Prison rules are actual.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rules of life.

[B]

So. And then he. We actually got to the point where like he'd come over and we chit chat for 20, 30 minutes while he's at. So it's like, that's the cool part of the story is we became like buds after that.

[A]

Mutual respect.

[B]

Yeah. And like, it was way down the line. So I'm like, you know what? I'm really sorry I yelled at you that day. I was having a bad day. He's like, don't worry. Of course he was a sweet, sweet old guy.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, it was. But that's, that's where I also recognized, like, this might not be that easy. Like, it was like, you know, once you get past your cloud nine and you're. You're euphoria, you know, there's. There's the work that has to be done. And I was, I was super angry, like, and resentful.

[A]

Are you feeling the calling to go back to drinking or drugs?

[B]

Not, not at that time. But it. That eventually does come. But I think that's just being fresh, being out of prison. Right. And you just, you know, you got your guard up all the time. Of course you don't need to have your guard up. Plus, you know, prison rules aren't real life rules. So if somebody disrespects you, you don't like, punch them in the face.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, it's simple stuff like that.

[A]

So what happened next after warehouse?

[B]

After warehouse. Well, okay, so I meet first wife.

[A]

Meet the first wife.

[B]

Meet the first wife. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And she's.

[B]

So when you, when you meet somebody in recovery. Right.

[A]

She was in the program.

[B]

She was in the program. It's. It's cool.

[A]

But you understand each other.

[B]

Yeah, understand each other on that level. But you also have to have, like, more in common beyond that. And we, we never really did.

[A]

So when did the fight start and why?

[B]

I mean, it was. Was just later on and it was. It wasn't like a ton of them. You know, it was just. I always. She. I don't want it. She's a nice person, so.

[A]

She is.

[B]

Yeah, she's a nice person.

[A]

There's always two sides to a story.

[B]

Yeah. And she had to put up with me. Right. And long story short, I was like, I was. I was still kind of a magpie. I was still collecting stuff that she didn't like.

[A]

Like what? Comics.

[B]

Comics. Yeah, she just didn't like the comics and toy collecting, like, at all. And. Yeah, yeah. And. And it just wasn't gonna work out.

[A]

You guys are not getting along.

[B]

Not getting along.

[A]

Dad gets sick.

[B]

Dad gets sick. Dad gets cancer. And we kind of. We kind of, like, everything is kind of. Kind of put to the side. We're dealing with dad's cancer.

[A]

How are you guys dealing with it? How's mom taking it?

[B]

Mom's being a caregiver and trying to be the strong caregiver. And at the time, we. I. You know, we thought there's a possibility he could fight it off. Right. And. But Mom's. My mom had just been a caregiver for her mom who died, and then she had to be immediately a caregiver for my dad. Long story short, on this one, he got colon cancer, went away, full remission. And then it comes back immediately, and it's. He's got weeks to live. Weeks to live. Gets into his stomach and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All this. And we have a last. Our last, like, conversation where he's, like, not just on morphine.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Our last real conversation. And he sits me down. He's in the hospital, and the last thing he wants to talk to me about is my relationship with my wife and.

[A]

Because he sensed it a long time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That it's. That you're not happy. It's not.

[B]

You're not happy. It's not working.

[A]

So what did he tell you?

[B]

Life is too short to be. To be with somebody you're not happy with. Right. And, you know, you deserve happiness. And. And we were, like, really tight, and we rarely talked about, like, relationships, so such a. It was like, why is he bringing this up? But he was right. He was right. And again, no fault of hers. Right. I was a massive pain in the ass.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. And so dad passes away, and that is just a huge change in my life. That's like an anchor gone.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And at that point, I see that, like, as a. As, like, you know what? It's just. I need it. I need change in life. I don't even know if it's the best decision in the world or not. And I've reconnected with some friends, including Melissa, and.

[A]

Because you knew Melissa from back in the day.

[B]

Yeah, Melissa. I've. My. My wife, Melissa, I've known for 41 years. So we. So she was at that Crystal Palace. She was partying there. So she's seen it all. She's seen it all. So we're friends. Reconnected through classmates.com.

[A]

oh, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So we. We. I get. I get a divorce. Yeah. And move to San Francisco. Move away from. Never thought I'd leave San Diego. I love San Diego. Move up to San Francisco.

[A]

What attracted you to San Francisco?

[B]

It Was just for back then it was cool and I needed. I needed a change. I just needed a change of scenery. Didn't want to leave the state of California and I didn't want to live in la. So San Francisco was the next best choice.

[A]

Well, I mean, you were weird in San Diego. In San Francisco, your home, everybody's weird.

[B]

Yeah, everybody's. That's. That's part of it. You know, it's certainly changed for San Diego now, but San Diego back then, it was pretty. Pretty much a normal town. And San Francisco back then was a different city than it is now. But, yeah, I was, I was up there and, you know, I just. I was selling auto parts. So I went from. From working at the warehouse to selling auto parts. And I thought the reason I bring that up is I like, well, this is my life now and I'm totally happy with it. Like, I like this job. I never. When you. When you have realistic expectations of, well, I was going to go nowhere in life and die. But now I've got this job because I had no skills. When I walked out of prison, my. One of my biggest fears is I have no skills.

[A]

Yes, you did. Yes, you did. Well, I mean, you're organized. You learned a lot in prison, so. Auto parts. But you're still collecting comics and doing your.

[B]

Yeah, still doing all that stuff, right?

[A]

Melissa's cool with it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like, totally cool with it. Oh, yeah, she has to be. No, no. She's as much of a collector as I am. So there you go. So, yeah, I got the normal job and I'm super happy with it. I'm like, if this is the job I work on at the rest of my life, I'm totally cool. Like, it makes enough money, I like it enough. But I always kept on, like, finding something more. Right. That's when the comic shop comes up. I'm in San Francisco, and this is before Melissa and I are married. We.

[A]

Were you living together?

[B]

Yeah, we were living together. And like, within a year, I bought the comic story. It just. It just landed in my lap.

[A]

But how, how did you make that decision?

[B]

It was really quick and probably not smart.

[A]

I mean, just suddenly it's available. You have money.

[B]

Well, I'm working at Oakland Acura.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I hate working in Oakland. Like, I. I hate Oakland. Like, hate Oakland like, a lot, so. And hate going over that Bay Bridge every day. So I'm looking for something and I'm out lunch. And I open the paper and there is an ad for some comics for sale. I answer the AD Because I'm like, well, I'm gonna buy this big chunk of comics. It was. It was affordable, and I'm going to save it for when I open a store someday in retirement. So that was my plan.

[A]

When you retire, would you open a store?

[B]

When I retire.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So when I'm making this deal with the guy, the guy's all, well, I mean, there's a comic shop for sale right now. You want to buy it? And it just so happened to be the shop. I shopped at the comic outpost, so it was my comic store.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm like, I'll just talk to the guy. I never thought any of this would go down. We talk, we agree on the price. We go to a pizza place, make a handshake deal.

[A]

You guys had the money.

[B]

I had the money.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Had the money. I post. Yeah. Post divorce. Made a lot of money off the condo. We. We bought a condo for, like, next to nothing. And the housing market went crazy. Right.

[A]

So the money was there.

[B]

Money was there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I bought the store and. And it was just like that. It was within two weeks. I had to quick read half read Small Business for Dummies. And then I was owning a comic store, which would. Was kind of was like a lifelong dream.

[A]

Did you. Did you feel like this is a dream come true?

[B]

Yes, at first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it always was. It was always a really fun job. But then, you know, I always said to myself, if this thing becomes a job, like, if it starts feeling like work, I'm out. And it didn't for a long time.

[A]

Well, you got into comic books as an entrepreneur at a very good time in our culture. Very good time. Very lucky, because this is. MCU is getting hot. Right. Spider Man's rebooted, and it's good.

[B]

Yeah. So. Right.

[A]

Nolan is reboots Batman. And it's great.

[B]

It's all. Yeah. It's kind of weird how the timing worked out. So I took it over in 2003.

[A]

Kind of weird. You're the luckiest dude I know.

[B]

Yeah. I. I X Men had come out 99. Spider Man. Spider Man 2 came out the year before I opened my store.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's. Yeah. We're just a couple of years before Nolan starting Batman and the MCU starting. And, you know, in the meantime, there was, like, Sin City came out and, you know, and it's just creeping up. It's doing better and better. It's. When I. When I got there, it was still, like, Recovering from post 9 11, post 90s stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Not A lot of it was very specific.

[B]

Batman Hush was the best selling comic. So it was out right when I started my store. And then it just started revving up. The competition between Marvel and DC got a lot more serious.

[A]

That's good for you.

[B]

Oh, it was great in the, in the beginning it was, it was absolutely great. And it was kind of a renaissance time for comic books, for independent books too. And it was kind of the last hurrah of American comics, now that I look back on it. It was kind of sad.

[A]

It was.

[B]

But the storytelling was getting much better, the art was getting better, the comic book sales were going up.

[A]

What were the people, like, coming in and out?

[B]

It was normies. So, like, we got it. It was a. Hollywood was bringing in a lot of normies. But what helped was the comic books were story driven. So we still had great writers like Mark Miller who were, who were out there working with, you know, either Wildstorm in the early days, but then they, like Marvel plucked him. And, you know, Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis and Grant Morrison, you know, all these old Judge Dread people coming in and writing America comics and kind of turning it on there, turning it upside down.

[A]

You won Best of the bay?

[B]

I did 2009.

[A]

Why? Why, why? How did you differentiate yourself?

[B]

I, oh, so my, this San Francisco is very San Francisco. Right. So most of the comic shops are going to be independent book oriented, you know, because it's such a hippie, independent town. I'm like, I am gonna be the normie superhero family store, because that's the one thing that isn't here.

[A]

Weren't you drawing your own comics back in the day?

[B]

Oh, God, yeah. I don't know. Yes, I was art school. I, I, I drew. We did. What kind of became the precursor of the book.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

We did a comic called Horror show and I did another comic. Superhero comic book.

[A]

People don't know that you write and draw.

[B]

No, they don't. And, and I get to keep it that way. Well, not anymore, but yes.

[A]

Not anymore.

[B]

Yeah, I, I did a superhero comic book that I might Revisit like after YouTube. But yeah, I was, I was drawing and writing just for fun. Like, no expectations. And I don't consider myself anything.

[A]

And the store is growing.

[B]

And the store's growing.

[A]

Then you get a certificate for video production.

[B]

Yeah. So when we win Best of the Bay in 2009. But this is like 2008. 2009.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Economy's going to crap, so the store is breaking even.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

Yeah, it's just breaking even. So I need I'm like, I'm gonna. I want to do something fun possibly to. To make some more money. I don't want to, but we need to, like, figure this out. So I take a video intensive course. It's called a new media intensive course or digital video intensive at San Francisco State university. It was four months, 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it's like basically film school with no theory put into four months.

[A]

That sounds awesome.

[B]

Like, all. It was great, great. First day we had cameras in our hands. Second day we're editing. We learn how to light a scene. We. We learn how to write a script. You know, this comes in handy. We used a Matlock script and.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah. And. Yeah. And it was people who all worked in the industry, and it's all practical. It was all practical. So by the end, all of us had shot, like, four little short films.

[A]

And how did this apply to the comic book store?

[B]

We were able to. I was able to like, shoot podcasts, do podcasts, do. Do ads, but it was always gonna be like, I want to do a podcast and I want to do some kind of live show. And I was thinking, we live streamed. God, what was. What did Joe Rogan used to use to live stream on?

[A]

You stream.

[B]

You stream. We used you stream.

[A]

The tiniest window.

[B]

The tiniest window. So we live streamed in our store way back when during free Comic book day and 24 hour comic book day, where people were. You. You make a comic in 24 hours.

[A]

So the store starts doing good again and you kind of become, ah, you come. Become the mayor. Mayor of the nerds.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

And ego Gary comes back.

[B]

Yeah, Big time. All goes to my head.

[A]

Why? What.

[B]

Stopped going to meetings.

[A]

Why? You were cured.

[B]

I was cured. No, I was.

[A]

I mean, I mean, what do you. What's your rational and what is my rational.

[B]

Say I was too busy. You're too busy for me. Too busy.

[A]

You know how that goes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what's the wife thinking? Doesn't.

[B]

She's busy too.

[A]

So she doesn't know you're missing meetings or doesn't.

[B]

Doesn't necessarily know. She's. She's like. We both. We had the two kids, right? So.

[A]

And you're learning to get pretty good at lying at this point.

[B]

I would. Yeah. Very good. Yeah, very good. So say I'm going to meetings when I'm not, you know, so that was just a recipe for destruction.

[A]

So it's going to your head and what's going down?

[B]

Well, no sponsor, no meetings, going to my Head. Things are going really well at the store, so that can mask a lot of stuff. Putting up a banner one day. Yeah, yeah. Superman Returns banner, which I still own. I will never get rid of it now.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

A ladder, a folding ladder. Flattens my thumb. Stupid injury. But my thumb was like this thin. Flattens my thumb. They have to, like, drill a hole in the nail and the. And the blood comes up like Monty Python. But at the emergency room because I had to drive myself there because my employee didn't know how to drive.

[A]

San Francisco.

[B]

Yeah, San Francisco. They. They gave me some Vicodin.

[A]

Oh, Daddy likey Viking.

[B]

Yep. And it was pretty much off to the races to that point.

[A]

Yeah. You're suddenly in a great mood and don't feel any pain.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So you just get a script. Get a script and you're just taken as prescribed.

[B]

Yeah, it's normal at first. Then the thing is, when you. When you have a comic store, a lot of people offer you stuff, you know, and like, what? Oh, advice, Advice. That's it. Just through time. Through. I. I mean, basically the. The addict mind kicked in again. Like, absolutely kicked in.

[A]

They're coming in with coke is what they're doing.

[B]

They're coming in with coke. So it jumps really quick. So it goes from, like, getting prescripts. And at that time, it was the. The Vicodin opiate epidemic.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It was really easy to get scripts just make. You could just say I sprained my ankle and my back hurt and. Yeah. And then, you know, we. I've always been offered weed, you know, in the store for trade or whatever. And a guy just, like, one day just. Yeah. Comes in, talk offer some coke. I'm like, sure.

[A]

So you go from saying no, though,

[B]

Going from no to let's go in

[A]

the back and get dusty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the. What shifted?

[B]

I. The relapse just kicked. The disease just kicked in at that point. The shifting point was probably. I mean, obviously the not going to meetings, not having a sponsor and realizing that I had already relapsed because for a minute I had it in my head that I hadn't relapsed when I was. When I was taking the pills.

[A]

What were you. Oh, because it was just doctor.

[B]

It was doctor. The doctor Gay. I was just doing. But I mean, I had stopped doing the prescribed amount, so I just said it.

[A]

And you weren't talking to your sponsor at all?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Did you feel ashamed or did you feel totally.

[B]

Totally. And that's what. That's what fed the addiction was the shame behind it. And the. The difference this time was I was doing all of this in solitude. Right.

[A]

She didn't know what was going on.

[B]

She didn't know what was going. Sure.

[A]

She didn't know.

[B]

Well, I thought she didn't know, because

[A]

I think they always know.

[B]

They always know.

[A]

We can fast forward to the Melissa Method.

[B]

Oh, the Melissa Method. Yeah.

[A]

Because you. You're really. You're on and off. There's the story of you going down to Comic Con.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

If you want to tell that. Cool.

[B]

So Comic Con.

[A]

But you're basically out of control, complete.

[B]

So it goes.

[A]

It goes well, because the coke habit is pricey.

[B]

It's. It's very pricey, and it's a progressive disease. So when you. When I quit. I'll use my statements here. When I quit, it's like you kept. I've kept doing drugs to the point where I pick them up again. So if that doesn't make any sense to anybody at home, it makes sense to addicts. If I was doing rails this big back in N or 89, when I quit, it will mean I'm doing rails this big when I pick up. Within weeks.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Within days.

[A]

Yep. Same with booze. Everything.

[B]

Yep. And the thing is, your tolerance is not the same as it was then, so it's very dangerous. But, yeah, in a very short amount of time, I was doing big old rails, like, huge rails.

[A]

How are things going at. At work?

[B]

Insane. I was going slowly going insane. My employees are like, what the hell's going on? My wife's like, what the hell's going on?

[A]

You have your son and a stepson at this point.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You're a good dad.

[B]

I mean, I was never bad to them, but I wasn't a good dad when I was high. No, it's terrible, dad, just getting high. Yeah.

[A]

You're thinking about them at all when you. When you're doing your. Else.

[B]

All the time. All the time. And it just made me want to get more high and not think about it, about how much I was failing them, like, constantly. And maybe I had it in the back of my head that, oh, I can. I can get around this. But then there was a point that kicked in. Is like, no, this probably it.

[A]

I did it once. I can do it again. And then you probably can't.

[B]

No. But just through the grace of God, nothing bad happened to him. Now, I didn't take any unnecessary risks with them or do any drugs in front of them or. Or drive them anywhere. Completely incapacitated or anything crazy. Like, that I still had enough, I guess, humanity left in me to not do that.

[A]

That's why coke is very tricky.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because it's not like you're all cloudy and slurry. You feel like, I can control this. I got this.

[B]

Until you're up for, like, four or five days and it gets a little crazy.

[A]

That was when you. You. I couldn't believe that you didn't crash on the way back from San Diego. So just quickly, what happened?

[B]

Okay. Go to San Diego. I'm, like, just completely out of it on coke. And there's video of it somewhere there. Is there?

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

I'll find it. It's. It's bad.

[A]

Do we have the Coked up podcast?

[B]

Yeah, we were doing it. I wasn't involved. I had hired somebody to do some interviews, but we had, like, my plan. My Coked up was. Actually sounded like a good plan at the time, but it was very hard to get Internet. There was to use the booth to sell stuff and also as a. As a. Like an interview. Like, podcasting interview on the floor.

[A]

Great idea, Con.

[B]

This was back in 2013, so it wasn't easy to do that, but we did it. And we got, you know, Dave Gibson and, like, we got some big names to come in. And. And. Yeah. But I was, like, losing my mind. So I get home, Melissa finds out what the hell's going on, and, I mean, she finds the biggest rock. She. She does. And.

[A]

And how do you. How. What is. How does she confront you on the. Oh, my goodness. She.

[B]

While I'm gone, she's planning an intervention.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

So she just plays it cool, and then all of a sudden, there's a bunch of people coming to my house.

[A]

I'm like, empty chair.

[B]

I'm like, oh, shit.

[A]

You know exactly what it is.

[B]

I know what's going on now.

[A]

This is where people make a choice.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

To sit or. Or to be an asshole.

[B]

Yep. And I decided to not be an asshole. I. I mean, I still love my wife, of course, and I still love my kids. It's not like that ever changed. I just. I was sick. I didn't like myself very much, and I made a lot of mistakes.

[A]

That's a. That's a very important decision that you made. That's. That's kind of like the real Gary coming through is. I'm gonna sit. Because you didn't have to. Because you. You were ver. Verbally abusive to Melissa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, some of the stuff you said to her is out of hand.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

She Very easily could have left you. She should have and probably should have.

[B]

Should have. I, I, I, I, I can't even

[A]

imagine speaking to anybody that way.

[B]

No.

[A]

Not someone who loves you.

[B]

No.

[A]

Saying, call your sponsor, go to meetings, and you're telling her to go herself.

[B]

Yep. So this time I didn't. And we sat down. A good friend of mine is there who was a customer at the store, but he was also instrumental in bringing me back to recovery. He's kind of a recovery guru. And we sit down, we have the specialist there for the rehab, and he's like, we gotta go right now. And at that point, I could have said no, but I was done. I was like, you know what? Let's go. So we go to rehab and, you know, I get cleaned up for 30 days, and it's really nice. One of the best things about it was they took away your. My phone too. And this is like 2013, so it's not as bad as it was. Yeah. And it was so nice to not be around a phone for 30 days.

[A]

Try it now, Gary. It's still nice. Yeah, try it now.

[B]

Maybe not for 30. I don't know if I can for 30 days, but for a week, that'd be nice.

[A]

Everyone should put it away for a bit.

[B]

For a bit.

[A]

Yeah, sure. So how did it go in. In rehab?

[B]

The rehab was. Was good because it got me reconnected with aa, but I wasn't ready yet. Right. So get out of rehab. Nice and healthy. I get out of rehab and just

[A]

immediately right back in.

[B]

Right back at it.

[A]

Did you have the store still?

[B]

Store is still around.

[A]

Who's running it while you're inside?

[B]

We have, I have a. I have a partial business partner.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I have the employees, and they're holding it together. And the store was, like, kind of doing its own thing. Didn't really need me there at that point.

[A]

Might have been even better without you.

[B]

It probably would have been.

[A]

Give them a break.

[B]

So I get back, go right back to the store. Store's doing pretty good, but then things go downhill for me, like, fast. So, like, we're in. We're in rehab in August, so we're in September of 2013. And the store went from doing okay to, like, absolutely done by the end of the year.

[A]

That fast?

[B]

That fast. It was like it just fell off a cliff. And it was my, My, like, the store could have survived, but I was, I went back out again.

[A]

You were back on doing the coke.

[B]

Yeah. And just, like, burning through money.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Absolutely. Burning through money. So I have to make the decision to close it. But before I close it, somebody else comes in and says, like, I'll give you a song to buy it. And I'm like, ah. You know, the customers still have it. I was like, ah, fine, whatever. You know, I. I need. I need to.

[A]

And all this time you're selling collectibles to feed your habit.

[B]

Oh, God, yeah.

[A]

Stuff that's one of a kind.

[B]

I laugh so I don't cry. John Byrne had. I can send you the copy. It's still out there. It's. You could find it on the Internet. But John Byrne had done a. A commission for me of Batman and Spider man on a double date with. With Catwoman and Black Cat, and Alfred's, like, barbecuing on the top.

[A]

So good.

[B]

It's so good. It's like he drew it for a comic book. Like, the guy took so much time with this commission. One of a kind. I'll never see it again.

[A]

For two days worth of coke.

[B]

Maybe two days worth of coke. And I had Frank Miller original art from amazing Spider Man 100. A spread page where Spider Man's eating the Fantastic Four.

[A]

What's going through your mind when you're letting it go? Are you thinking about, this is gonna hurt?

[B]

It's gonna hurt, but, you know, that's. I need to get high.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it hurts. Like, there's a couple things. Like some stuff I've sold, it's like, whatever, but, like, there's a couple. It's like, oh, those were.

[A]

Those.

[B]

You know, how much that Frank Miller spread would be worth right now? It's like, oh. And considering how much I sold it for, it's like, ugh. But so you have.

[A]

You have to. You have to sell the store or you want to.

[B]

We have to. Because I am. I'm bank. I'm going bankrupt at this point. She's carrying you guys, and Melissa's not going to carry me like this. The shop has to carry itself or it's done. And it could have, but I burned through all the money, so it just got tiresome. I had to have a check ready when the shipment came. And it just, like. It just wasn't sustainable at that point. And it was a choice of, do I continue to keep the store or do I try to fight to get my sobriety and my family back? And it was. It was an easy decision. So it was. Shut it down, then it gets sold. So it stayed around for a little while and I. Melissa kicked me out of the house.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

So she. Right around. Right around Christmas, she found some more pills, and she's like, you're out. Yeah. So. And initially, it was. I went to sober living. So at first, nowhere, and then it. We. We set up sober living.

[A]

So we're living's urine test, though.

[B]

Urine tests. Oh, yeah.

[A]

How'd that go?

[B]

Oh, I did so much. See, the thing is, though, I didn't do coke. I could tell. I could tell you the truth right now. I didn't do coke, but I had done so much coke that it was still in my system, like, days after. So I failed the test, and I'm like, I for real didn't do any coke, dude. But they're like, right?

[A]

They all say that.

[B]

Yeah, they all say that. So they. They're like, the deal is you got to just go. You get kicked out for a day, and then you go to, like, a different house, right?

[A]

You still got to pay for that day.

[B]

Still got to pay for that day. So that's what happened. And I'm like, all right, because you can't go home. I can't go home. So I slept in the car.

[A]

Slept in the car.

[B]

Slept in the effing car.

[A]

Hoping for tomorrow.

[B]

Hoping for tomorrow. So this is 2013. I am 43, just lost everything, and I am sleeping in my effing car, right? So I get into the. The next. The sobriety house. It's off. It's off. A sloat in San Francisco, if you're familiar with that area. And I'm like, I'm gonna give it another go. I gotta find a job first. I just wanted to get, like, I had enough. Enough money set aside and didn't need a lot. It's just like, let's just get the sober thing going right now. Let's go to meetings.

[A]

Meetings.

[B]

Meetings. Yeah. And there's meetings in the house, and the people in the house. It was a nice house. People were pretty cool.

[A]

You were still in touch with Melissa at this time?

[B]

A little bit, yeah.

[A]

I mean, a little bit is enough.

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. Which is like, I'm alive. I went to a meeting, just checking in, but she's not being like, do

[A]

you know at the time that you're risking more than you were at Folsom? Like, it's a more dangerous situation now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You knew that.

[B]

Yeah. Like, this is way more dangerous than when I was younger.

[A]

You got boys at home? No, dad.

[B]

I got kids I've abandoned, basically. I have let down. And that, like, that sticks the most. Right. Is what really Motivated me to. To turn my. Because I didn't know if she was gonna get. I figured she wouldn't. And I'm like, oh, my God. Visitation with my kids. I know other people have to go through. There's people out there going through it right now, and it's not to look down on them. This is a completely different situation. But with. What motivated me was like, I don't want to have. I don't want to. I don't want to be that dad. I don't want to be that dad. There's so many dads out there that have done that. It's like, I don't want to be that dad.

[A]

You sit in circles with that dad every time you're at a meeting.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're one of those guys. Is there?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Can't be that guy.

[B]

I can't. And you know, it sucks to be in that position as that guy. And like, if I had to be in it, that's fine. But that my main motivation was, I am not going to be that guy. I'm not going to let my kids down, period. So whatever I'm feeling, I have to. I have to deal with it. So I did. I, I. That was it. That was the thing that clicked for me and passed my next piss test. No problem.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And well, they were. Listen. Yeah, it was quite. They were all like, this. This is the guy who failed. So I think they were ready to like, boot me out. And I passed. They're like, okay, we can move a. You could. You could feel kind of like a tension leave and we can move on. And.

[A]

And that guy who technically threw you out that first night, which he should have. I don't know what the quote was, but it was a great moment in your story where you were kind of negotiating, almost fighting with the guy to stay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And whatever the quote was, he said, what you're doing right now is your angry external forces trying to get someone else to make a decision for you. We're not doing that here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you got it. You gotta. You gotta do this on your own.

[A]

But it's on you.

[B]

This is on you.

[A]

Come back tomorrow.

[B]

These are rules, you know? And. And he was right.

[A]

He was right.

[B]

It's a great 100%. It sucks to hear at the time,

[A]

though, you're like, it does, but it's a. But it make. Had me thinking about my own life. Everyone should think about that. When you're angry at external things, you're looking for someone else to make your decision for you.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Don't do that. Man up. Make the call.

[B]

Man up. And. And I did. And. Yeah. So through this, through the sober living, it starts to come together and I have to go through, like, just swallowing a lot of pride along the way. This is, you know, is going back to auto parts jobs, but not to the. Like, I was a. I'm a journeyman in that field. I had to go work at O'Reilly for 12 an hour. That's where I started. But that's. That's what you have to do. And I wasn't super happy about it. I was bitter. But it's like I understood that, like, this is me getting a job. And in the meantime, I start a podcast. I just. Because I missed the store and I'm like, I need a hobby. Because I know how important one of the things about recovery is. Going to the gym is really important. And it's not to. It's more. It's for this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

More than anything. It's part of that routine. Right. And having a hobby, like having a hobby you enjoy. So I'm like, well, I like, we did the podcasting thing at the store. Let's just do one for shits and giggles. And me and my. Me and a friend and we did our first show in a Starbucks at West Portal in San Francisco.

[A]

Would you name the show?

[B]

Well, the show was named Sutro Watchtower in the. Originally, which is a terrible name, but it was just a placer name.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because we were like, literally. Because the shop, the. The Starbucks is under the Sutro Tower.

[A]

Oh, that's.

[B]

Which is a giant antenna in, In San Francisco.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And we thought Watchtower, like, you know, Watchtower. So it's terrible. It's a terrible name.

[A]

All creators have a terrible name for

[B]

their channel, but it was just a placeholder.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[B]

And yeah, we do this show. I think we Talked about Batman vs Superman and like the Arrowverse and you know.

[A]

And how are you handling being away from the comic book store and going to job day to day? How are you? Just the drudgery, the regret.

[B]

I'm handling it by going to meetings and talking about it and getting myself a sponsor and temporary sponsors and whoever would have my ear. But I'm. It's tough. It was really hard.

[A]

How long does it take Melissa to trust you again?

[B]

A while. A while. We. Once I got. I think I moved on. We were just about to move on. I went through a bunch of jobs, So I started O'Reilly and then I just. Whatever would pay me more. I was gone. You Know Tesla? Yeah. And ended up at Tesla eventually. But between that, I worked at a German car place and few Acura's.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Acura and Dodge and eventually end up at Tesla. But I'm, I'm back home. Within a few months, I'm back home. And it. Yeah, we're. So I'm doing the podcast thing. Going to work every day and especially when it's up, you know, in Marin. So I'm going to Tesla. I work for Tesla. I finally get a job at Tesla. I work my way up and what

[A]

are you doing there?

[B]

Oh, well, Tesla found me for someone on fricking LinkedIn of all things. Like, I'm actually, I'm the one person on earth who got a job on LinkedIn. They sent me a message and they were in the process of trying to not be a tech company and be an auto motive company because they have service centers, right. And they were treating them like tech centers. And it's like, you can't do that. So they needed to bring in automotive people. And this was in 217. So they found me and they offered me like all the money in the world. And I'm like, okay, well, I, they, they're like, what would it take? And I'm like, I'm gonna give them a stupid.

[A]

Like, how did you become talented and, and wanted. Why are you being recruited? What skills?

[B]

I think they were. I was on, on LinkedIn already, but I just had a lot of experience in auto parts. That's it. And, and it, it's probably just as hard now, but it was hard to find people. It's a generational thing, but it was hard to find people who, who were.

[A]

My boy can't change an alternator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doesn't even know what it is.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, finding people who had skills in that field was getting tough. Was getting tough. And they had the money and they were just kind of flinging I think it everywhere to see. But the fact that they found me is so weird. And I found that email when I was at work at Toyota and I'm like, I'll just answer it. And then like, they shot me back and I'm like, okay, I'll just show them. I'll just tell them how much money I want. And they said yes. And I'm like, okay, I guess I'm working there now. It was fine. Like for, for big corporations. They're actually probably the best I've ever worked for. The.

[A]

Were you turning wrenches?

[B]

No, I was working in parts. So I was setting up. I was helping with the parts department. That had no focus whatsoever. And when I left, it didn't have any either. That's the problem. But like, yeah, working at a Tesla parts, I won't bore anybody. It's just really different than working at a regular car because Tesla's. You're pretty much just changing tires. That's about it. Door handles, tires and screens.

[A]

And that's where you discovered YouTube can kill some time.

[B]

YouTube could kill a lot of time. So I was watching a lot of YouTube and I was still doing my podcast and doing like a little. A little bit here on YouTube. I was telling you earlier, we got kind of inspired by talking Dead, but we were going to talk about Walking Dead. I would. We would find about the great Chris Hardwood. Yeah, we, we. We cover Ash vs Evil Dead, Westworld counterpart. Just any weird show and we just do a live stream afterwards and American Gods, you know, and we get a little traction there. And it was through Expanse, we started getting a bunch of traction, which was great. Which was great before any culture nonsense started going on. Right. So this is all going on in the background while I'm working at these parts jobs and. Yeah. People I'm friends with now, I'm all watching. I'm at Tesla and I've got my phone down here.

[A]

Who are you watching?

[B]

Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yep. So Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers and in the early days, drinker.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. I was watching Eric July Young Ripa.

[A]

Can we give a shout out to Yellow Flash?

[B]

Yellow Flash. Hell, yeah. Yellow Flash. I was in his streams a lot back in the early days. Yeah, it was. And eventually, you know, a couple of videos took off.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The first one that took off for me, like big time, was like 30, 000 views. Was the expanse getting canceled? I did a video on that.

[A]

Let's take. Let's take a break.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, take a break because now we're getting into nerd rotic before we take the break. How's Melissa doing with this podcast thing? She's watching you do it. You're having a ball. She thinks it's stupid.

[B]

No, she actually, she really. She's part of the operation now. She's the brains of the operation. This thing doesn't happen without her.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Does she think I'm stupid all the time? No, no, she's really supportive. And we could definitely get to, like, the part of the story where, you know, she was freed up to have all that time. But I think she's. She's she's proud. She's proud of me in her way. Yeah.

[A]

So you have a video that takes off, right?

[B]

Yes. Relatively speaking.

[A]

Oh no, I get it. 30,000 views. Took me two years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To get to.

[B]

So that's a lot years to get to that. And when I saw it happen, I was just like, it was the. It was awesome. I was like, wow, 30,000 people. Like a baseball stadium.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Watched my video.

[A]

What video was it?

[B]

It was the Expanse getting canceled. It was for a bummer. It was a complete bummer. But I was, it was just reporting that it was canceled and I had never really done a video. I was a live stream channel, purely not thinking. I did everything wrong. Right. When I started live streaming, it was just to back up podcasts. It was just to record the podcasts. So I had no idea people were watching. So I'll never forget one of my first. I consider my first sub because he was the first one I contacted. Brian Smart. I love you. He emails me is all. I have been trying to talk to you for the last three weeks. There's a chat right below your that you're not paying attention to. I'm like, there's a chat?

[A]

You didn't know?

[B]

No, I had no idea.

[A]

Your fans are there.

[B]

So I, we start doing. I'm like, oh my God, there's four people in here. So it was like success, total success. This is all I ever wanted was just talk nerdy stuff. And I had another co host is a friend of mine. He's a good guy, used to work for Netflix, helped build Disney plus. He's kind of a brilliant guy.

[A]

It's not his fault what happened over there.

[B]

No, it's not his fault. But he's the one who's all, you know, we can make money off this. I'm like, get shut up. Can't make money off YouTube. I'm not going to make any money. I'm not doing this for money. I, I'm happy. I like it.

[A]

And were you aware of like monetization and all of that?

[B]

Not super aware. And at the time I wasn't even monetized.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm like, that's not gonna happen, you know.

[A]

So you were making zero money.

[B]

Zero. Doing it for years, just doing it for fun. Doing this exact same thing I do now, but just. I just did it as a hobby because it was a chance to hang out with my friends and it kept me out of trouble.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it was doing something I truly loved. Every morning when I get up, since before the Comic shop. I get up and go to entertainment websites. So back 20 years ago was the force.net, the1ring.net, you know, just looking at all my nerdy stuff, it made me happy. That's it. So why not make a show around that? And then once something hits 30,000 views and actors from the show contacted me and they're like, hey, thanks for the support. I'm like, hey, thanks for the great show. You know, like, it was really a great show. Seeing it get picked up by Amazon was awesome.

[A]

So big.

[B]

It was huge. And then, you know, we kind of kept doing. I never thought to make videos still.

[A]

So you still not thinking about, I can make money this.

[B]

Yeah. So the first video that took off was technically a live stream. I did it live, but then once it hit vod, yep, it took off and it didn't really click right away.

[A]

Totally understand.

[B]

And eventually I just started making videos because I was told, well, that helps you get subscribers. I'm like, well, I can do a video. I can edit a video real quick. And what I'll do is I'll just riff off my last live stream, you know, because. Because I. I mean, even to this day, my channel has more live streams than it does videos. I think I've only done, wow, 600 videos. Because it says 1700 on my channel. 600 of those are videos. The rest are livestreams. I live stream way more. And I didn't think about it because now I think of myself more as somebody who makes videos. But I honestly livestream.

[A]

You live stream all, all the time, everywhere.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

What were the monetization requirements when you were getting close?

[B]

Oh, those were back in the days of, you got a thousand subs.

[A]

A thousand subs. And that was it.

[B]

I don't even think it was a thousand subs.

[A]

That's before me. You needed like, 4,000 watch hours.

[B]

It was 4,000 watch hours and 500. I. I can't even remember. It's not the requirements that you have today. No.

[A]

Do you remember when you hit it?

[B]

I remember when I hit it and somebody gave me $5 in a super chat amount. Oh, that's awesome. Thanks.

[A]

You made money?

[B]

I made money. I remember cash, like transferring the first $50 out of. Out of my account, just going right on. That's like absolutely easy money right there. And I was happy with it and I didn't need any more. And to this day, I haven't asked for a super Chat. I've never asked for a super Chat.

[A]

You have it.

[B]

No, Now. And it's been brilliant. The support has been brilliant. But, yeah, once that took off, Doctor who happened. Right. And that was the first time.

[A]

What do you mean Doctor who happened? Doctor who's been happening for a long time.

[B]

All right. So I guess I gotta frame that.

[A]

Well, something. Things were happening within this particular segment of pop culture.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That made you angry.

[B]

Yes. That I couldn't believe what was happening. Because if you like. Well, okay, so let's go to the Expanse. You love the Expanse. I love the Expanse. The Expanse kind of showed where entertainment was going at the time. It was prestige television. It was done. Right. The Expanse, season one. And the first two seasons are 10 out of 10.

[A]

10 out of 10.

[B]

Science fiction. Really a great take on the world. A pretty even take on the world.

[A]

It was.

[B]

And it was a diverse show. That never said we're a diverse show. It was going that way, naturally. It was kind of matching the demographics of America and the uk and nobody was making an issue out of it.

[A]

Well, it felt like this is where things would go.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's hard science fiction. Like this is how things would happen.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Especially so we're talking about going to Mars. The Belters, and they're. They have a unique culture and a language.

[B]

Yeah. The Belchers were the Teamsters. Mars was military.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And Earth was the welfare state. Was the welfare state that was run by the United Nations. And I thought it was a really accurate look at the United Nations. And everybody was on basic income. And everybody on basic income sat around their house and did nothing.

[A]

Right. They got high.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you had the wealth gap.

[B]

Giant wealth gap. And it was a problem. That's why people were leaving. That's why people would leave to Mars, you know, And Mars was militaristic, but they were goal oriented and they were. It's. It's complex, but there was a lot of. A lot of Martians were just good people, you know, and then they had, like, the Space Mormons, which was funny, but I thought it was a relatively objective look at life, for the most part. Kind of changes later in the books, but it does.

[A]

I stuck with them. I have the books memorized.

[B]

I did, too. I. I did too. I think they rallied at the end. The books rallied at the end. There's a couple of books I don't like, but.

[A]

What parts of the story of the Expanse bother you?

[B]

Meet you pa. You don't like pa, huh? I hate pa. I hate PA. Was instrumental in destroying the Earth and face no consequences for it.

[A]

Totally agree. And I would skip her steam's. No offense to the actress Skipper scenes in the book.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But I was okay with Drummer.

[B]

Yeah, Drummer was fine.

[A]

It was okay. Drummer was fine with Bull being kind of in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. I see where you're coming from.

[B]

And then they went away from Holden in the later books completely. I'm like, what are we doing? But it rallied at the end and really. And ants, unlike the show answers. The proto molecule, like, tells you what's going on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if you watch the show and not read the books, there's.

[A]

You just got started.

[B]

You just got started. It's basically Game of Thrones, you know, like ending at. At a dance with dragons or A Song of Ice and Fire and. Except you can read the books and find out what's going on.

[A]

I forget which run. Whether it was Ty. I don't forget. But he was George's assistant for a while.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So both Ty Frank and Dan Abrahams were. Are like proteges.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're like the two people who could probably go and finish A Song of Ice and Fire on the planet. Yeah.

[A]

So they. They were making like, an RPG some and said, this be a good novel.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. It started out as. As a game. I wish they hadn't gotten super political a few years ago. They haven't said, well, not that I've seen since. But I was. Yeah, I was a huge supporter of the show. And I still say, still watch it. I still think it's pretty good.

[A]

So what. How's that track with Doctor who and. And what you were doing?

[B]

So Hollywood drastically changed post. Well, there's a couple things. The first Trump administration and me, too, kind of coincided. 2015, 2015, 2016. Something radically changed in Hollywood. What are the origins of that? I can get really in the weeds with that. I think a lot of it was dictated from the Obama administration and on.

[A]

You don't have to get into the weeds on that because that's an opinion.

[B]

But it's my opinion.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Yes. My opinion.

[A]

But what happened to the storytelling is kind of fact.

[B]

Yeah. Whatever the origins were.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I have my. I have my suspicions, which I've gone over a lot on my channel. It did change, and we saw characters like Luke Skywalker turned into broken men who try to kill their nephew because they had a bad dream and sit on an island drinking the. The booby milk from a giant space manatee. And while they were trying to introduce new characters in a Star wars franchise that everybody would have been fine with, it was the treatment of Han Solo, it was the treatment of Luke Skywalker. And it was clearly not creatively driven. All of. All of that was not creatively driven. It was social and political motivations behind these decisions. A lot of channels were born with. With the Last Jedi and the Force Awakens and. And the Rise of Skywalker. I got into the mix.

[A]

So are those bad movies because it's a female lead?

[B]

No, no, they're bad movies because they weren't planned. They were poorly written. And the female lead was propped up. Basically, she was propped up by degrading the legacy characters. So that's where the frustration comes in. Now you will hear the excuse from the access media and even people who work on the show and Lucasfilm that people just hate women. Every Star wars fan would have been completely fine with a female lead and a female Jedi. And Finn, who was actually the more interesting character out of all of them. He was who they made a clown. Not the fans. The fans were mad at them for the treatment of Luke. What we have been waiting for is to see full powered, full Jedi. Luke, who could, like in Dark Empire, who could bring down a Star Destroyer with the Force. We just wanted to see that. That's all we wanted to see.

[A]

I. I heard that even Mark Hamill, he was. Didn't love the way that character wrapped up.

[B]

He was not happy. He was clearly not happy. And he was showing that throughout the press. Now they told him to finally shut up. I don't think he ever fully did. And you can get mad at Mark for other things he said.

[A]

You can. But I don't care about what he said. I don't care about his political positions. I care about the story.

[B]

As far as the story of Star wars, he was clearly not happy about it and neither were the fans.

[A]

You mentioned a phrase, access media, you coined that. That's. But that's a term that is used now in media. What does that mean?

[B]

Access media is the corporate media that essentially. And not all corporate media. It's also some independent media that will basically throw softballs as far as interviews go and be talk. So toxic negativity. There's also toxic positivity. And they will gas up gaslight things that aren't very good so they can maintain their access. And it is not for money at all. I mean, I've said it before. I'd almost respect that more if you did that for money, because that's. That's something of value. No, it's just to maintain your access. And what they get is screen. They get early access to movies or TV shows. They get screeners and when you're watching them, they've got like some giant watermark thing over them. And instead of being authentic and honest all the time, they pretty much. They're really soft on their criticism and really crazy and absolutely unbelievable with their over praise with things like Ironheart or the Marvels, which are just objectively bad.

[A]

So they have to review these positively or they don't get the next interview.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or at least think that way. Now it's not.

[A]

This is not your opinion. This is a. This is how it works.

[B]

This is how it works. And it's not like the studios tell them that. The studios don't tell them that. They, they do it on their. And what happened is people like yours truly or anybody else who went to them normally, like us, I used to go to a CBR or screen rant for my news all the time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or ain't it cool news? And honestly, ain't it cool news back in the day was the most real. They were absolutely the most real. Especially Moriarty. He was like a, A drinker prototype.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. You know, he would shred stuff. And that's why I love the guy, because I knew, well, this guy's honest. You know, I didn't agree with them all the time. But you started seeing these, these giant sites and these critics who really, they went out of their way to, I mean, to just to call movies that are obviously fly. Like, you can like, we can have a difference of opinion of like Shang Chi, right? Yes, I. Some people could think it's good. I think it's terrible. But it's not the worst thing Marvel's ever done.

[A]

I think it made money. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. No, it didn't. It didn't. Okay, well, yes, I, I got called.

[A]

They should decide.

[B]

That's how they should decide. But what. Where they're gaslighting people is saying these things are making money when they're not. The year that Shang Chi came out and the Eternals and I think it was Black Widow, Marvel wrote down $65 million. The studios. So they didn't make money. If you're writing down money, you're not making any money.

[A]

So if a movie makes. We hear the numbers all the time. A movie makes $300 million. That's not really the number, is it? No, it does box office. 300 million. That's.

[B]

That's the money. It. It. Okay, so if a movie makes. If they announce it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. That is the movie. That is the money. Generated at the box office.

[A]

So that's free split.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's not including the marketing budget.

[B]

It's not including marketing budget. That's not including anything you're paying the actors afterwards. That's not including the theaters take.

[A]

Right. Which is about half.

[B]

Which is about half. It averages out half internationally. It's, it's a little more. They get, you know, China gets a huge amount of the money and then it evens out here, particularly with Disney, which can kind of strong arm the theaters and have been for a long time. So Disney gets 60 of the domestic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In a lot of cases. So it's just, it's. We're just, it's semantics, it's parsing words and it's. And then they're not calling out. So the press is supposed to call this stuff out. So we started calling it out. And listen, I didn't know anything about it. So I just researched it and I talked to people, I talked to people who work in Hollywood. I talked to people who had knowledge of the box office and just learned what they, what they taught me. And it's pretty easy. Like theaters don't show movies for free. Right. So when we're. So when I, when I went out and called Shangchi a flop, it was a flop. It did not profit. And I got called out by Simulu, which is fun, it's fine.

[A]

But called out for what?

[B]

For criticizing, calling it a flop when. And he said it wasn't a flop, but it was a flop. It, it was, it did not. It was the technical term of a flop. The technical definition, which is it did not profit at the box office. We had the same battle over Superman. Now I wouldn't go out and call Superman a flop, but it certainly didn't perform as well as it should have. But that, that's where the access media comes from. It is just this divide and this disconnection. And they are just became a PR firm for the studios. So independent people like myself and others, Jeremy from geeks of Gamers, Yellow Flash drinker Mahler just started do their doing their own thing. Right. And, and none of us have ever said like our opinion is the be all, end all. It is just an opinion. But people started gravitating towards it because it was the truth, you know, and you know, sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes they get things wrong. And, and the, the cool thing is we can go. I got that one wrong is are

[A]

there any movies or TV shows that you criticize that later on you're like actually it's okay.

[B]

If we go way back. There's movies I was way hard on and like Thor, Dark World. I. I think I was a little too hard on that movie. I actually, it's not that everybody calls it bad. It's not that bad.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

But when you can see other, like the Star wars prequels, have they not benefited the most from the Disney trilogy? I.

[A]

Those aren't that bad. Is that a hot take? I don't mind those movies.

[B]

I hated them when they came out.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I have very much softened my opinion on them. I don't think they're great. We could do without Jar Jar, the Hobbit trilogy. I hated it when it came out and I. And I watch it all the time now.

[A]

Same. It won me back.

[B]

It won me back. So anything recent that I. I can't say. I can't say. Yeah. Nothing. Yeah. Like, it's not like I've gone back to Doctor who. If we want to get back to and Doctor going, ah, it wasn't that bad.

[A]

I want to know what attracted attention to you. So what you. Why you were dead.

[B]

Oh, I just came out and said, the doctor's not a woman. So when they, when they. It. The changes of Doctor who were happening even before Jody Whitaker came along, and it was getting. It was getting filled with just political nonsense beforehand. Even with Capaldi, who did a great job, I mean, like, it's. I wish he would have gotten better scripts because he's one of the better doctors and one of the better actors to play it. And I have a lot of respect for that guy. But when they have a lot of

[A]

respect for Jody Whitaker, she's a brilliant actress. A lot of this is not the talent's fault.

[B]

It's not the only thing. Like, as far as her taking a job, I don't criticize her for that. It's when she took the job and what she said. Then I'll criticize her.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

Then I'll criticize her. Because if she had just gone. I'm going to do the best I can as a doctor. Like to come out with, that's fine. I'm going to. I'll criticize the show, but I'm not really going to get on her. And I use the term the first female doctor played by Jody Whitaker because that's how the Access media referred to her, like, all the time. So that's why I used it in all of my videos.

[A]

It became a label culture.

[B]

It did. It did. And when she, when, when they showed the transition from, you know, that she was going to be the next Doctor. I kind of knew it was Doctor who pressing the panic button a little bit. Something Steven Moffat even said prior to, he said, if we, if they change the Doctor into a female, they're pressing the panic button. Well, they did too soon, in my opinion, and my opinion was at the time and still is, that the Doctor's a male character. And the only reason you changed the Doctor into a female character. It was not a creative decision. It was one to grab headlines and it was one motivated by social and political. It was, it had social and political motivations. It was not a creative one. They don't know where to go with this. And if they're going to do a female doctor, are you going to really, are you going to explore the, the real differences between a male doctor and a female doctor? And they didn't, they didn't, they didn't. They just treated it the same. Her first episode, record breaking. But I was, I was there reviewing it and I just said, the Doctor's not a woman. And it was at that time that could get you suspended on Twitter.

[A]

I remember.

[B]

Yeah, it was crazy. So that's all I said. It wasn't anything crazy.

[A]

Why do you think you're labeled far right? Are you far right?

[B]

No, no, I think I'm labeled far right for the same reasons a lot of people get labeled far right is you don't agree with one extreme political sect on 100% of everything. I mean, look at how they treat J.K. rowling is, is progressive as they get. She's, she goes off the reservation for one issue and look at, look at like what she goes through. So I don't know. I, I, I'm not a hyper political person. But as far as, I mean we've had the discussions about it as far as like whatever criticisms were flung at me. I, I'm on the Internet. I understand. I'm on the Internet and I don't really care what people think.

[A]

I'm glad you don't care. I don't think they know you support Amnesty International. Gay rights.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gay children at risk, all that. They don't think they know. They're aware of that.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Do you think by changing the, this beloved ip, are the intentions good? Are they trying to do something good for society?

[B]

Yes, I think some of them have that in their mind that the intentions are good. But we all know what gets, what gets paved with good intentions.

[A]

We do, we do.

[B]

I think there are some true believers in there that Feel like that you're, you're getting to a modern audience and you're accessing children with certain messaging. The problem is I, I disagree with a lot of that, but beyond that, it's, there's no such thing as a modern audience. That's the thing they're always chasing. It's just, it doesn't exist. Well, okay, I'm gonna reframe that. It does, but there's not enough of them. What you want. There's always the audience you want. If you're making Doctor who or Star Trek or Star wars, you want that to have the most mass appeal as possible.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And as I said earlier, if you have a message you want to get across to get people to think about, don't answer the question for him, present it to him with respect, which is not, not spoon feeding it to them. And, and that's what a talented writer does. A talented, like even Alan Moore, we know where Alan Moore comes from politically, thinks he's a wizard. He's a, he's a brilliant writer. But even he can write a really good Superman story, like whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow? You know, he doesn't let that get in the way of telling a good story. You know, J. Michael Straczynski, you know, I loved Babylon 5. Yeah. And I think Babylon 5 actually goes into some stuff that he, sometimes a story can go beyond the writer. And I think it really, A lot of stuff that happened during COVID you can look at some Babylon 5 episodes that, you know, there was no intention there, but they really say a lot about it. So that's, that's what good storytelling does. And, and it doesn't, it doesn't drive people away. Because if you are, if your intention is like, I want people to think about this. Well, you want the most people to think about it as possible. So you don't talk down to them. You don't, like I said earlier, you don't like start a story going, listen up, bigots.

[A]

That's not the way to, not the way to go.

[B]

It's not the way to convince somebody. And it's really, it really divided fandom in a way that I've never seen in my life. Now, fandom has always been crazy and critical and they're like, you thought you could change the doctor into a woman and people wouldn't speak up. That's kind of crazy. Thinking about it now.

[A]

How many arguments did you see at the comic book store about this comic verse, that one, this character every day.

[B]

And it was great. I Loved them because they were good spirited debates and like. And I'm an idiot. So I'm sitting there arguing with customers and we're like yelling at each other, but we're cool afterwards. But yeah, and I had to hear some crazy stuff, but I, you know what? I listened to them. I sat there. Art, Art Bell, greatest interviewer ever.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Non confrontational. Like you kick back a little bit, but I listen to a lot of Art. And he will let people have their say with respect. Right. And part of, I think being on a, on a live stream in particular is you are kind of running some customer service and you got to kind of let people talk, let people do their thing and listen to it. And if it's insane, you can kick back a little bit, but there's still a way to kick back without, you know, calling the guy in an a hole.

[A]

Why do you think nerd culture, geek culture, which I come from, you know, reading your book. It's almost like reading autobiography at some places. The way I came to Tolkien is the same way through the 70s cartoons, Star Wars. I remember waiting online as a kid. Changes me. Why do you think Hollywood went after these, this particular beloved IP with hardcore fans and want to change it? Why is that the target? The.

[B]

Well, I mean, my opinion on the matter is Hollywood went after it because they wanted to. They felt they were going to force the change that was needed, consequences be damned. Because this is what we. We know better. So we're gonna. I mean, with Doctor who, we're going to take something away. That was the whole. Because with Doctor who, you can make a separate series with a female. Time Ladies, they were called. You could have done that and Doctor who fans would have watched it. You could have had a Doctor who show and, and a Time lady show.

[A]

You could have.

[B]

You could have done that. And they didn't do it because they wanted. They felt like somehow you're being inclusive by taking something away. And we still see it to this very day. Right. And it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add to anything.

[A]

Has it worked with any of these? No, honestly, none of these worked.

[B]

You could have some, like, side characters where it works. And like, I'm not militant when it comes to race or gender swaps. When it's with a side character, like in Harry Potter, if you make Susan Bones black, I don't care.

[A]

But, but Snape is a problem.

[B]

Snape is a problem. Snape is a problem. And Dr. Who was just as big of a problem. It fundamentally changes the show. If it changes the past. So, and then what they did, knowing with Dr. Who, like what a problem it would be, instead of just having the female doctor show up and leave, which they could have done, they're like, no, we need to reinforce her in the story, so we need to change the origin. So when they went back and changed the origin, and I heard way in advance, I, I had a friend who was working with, with Doctor who, who I knew from the comic shop days was telling me what's going on. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. He's all down. No, they're going to change the origin of Doctor who.

[A]

I learned a lot of this stuff from your videos and I would say the same thing. You know, Gary said, this is going to happen. I'm like, there's no way they're going to do that. It's been 40 years. They're not going to do that. They're not going to retcon 40 years. They, but they did, they did it

[B]

and they did it to reinforce the female Doctor and they thought it was, they thought it was going to get to the new modern audience.

[A]

Did any of this bring in women? Did it bring in any of these?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

It didn't?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

So it's still the same people watching this, this IP in.

[B]

Generally it's the hardcore Doctor who fans who are hanging on. And what Hollywood has failed to learn that is, you know, you buy a really expensive IP for that built in audience. That built in audience are the ones who are they shepherd new fans in. They are the custodians. They, you, the company, own it. But Star Trek fans are the ones who make more Star Trek fans.

[A]

My wife loves the mcu. My wife loves Star Trek because she would sit there, I would watch it as, you know, as the nerd who knows everything. She doesn't know anything. She just knows it's a fun, good story.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

She doesn't really watch any of that anymore.

[B]

No, because they're not fun. They're not fun Doctor who.

[A]

She became a fanatic. Back to Eccleston. She became a fanatic and when, when Tenet came on, that's it. We were done. We were in, but we're out.

[B]

It's. Oh God, it's such a shame. You know, I was just, I'm going through some classic who now right now. And it's like it's a show, it was made for nothing. And it's, and it's, it really is just carried with its acting and its storytelling because you've Got, you know, Tom Baker talking to a paper mache dude. Like, it's tinfoil. It's terrible.

[A]

I loved it when Tom Baker. I loved, when I was a kid, I didn't notice, I didn't know.

[B]

Some of the themes are really like, really dark. They are and like, and magnificent. And I know that there was a lot of criticism in the UK about that, but I loved it as a kid.

[A]

Do you think things are coming back? The pendulum always swings.

[B]

I think so, but I think it's because I wish it was because, you know, we see the error of our ways. We are villainizing and demonizing the paying customer, our audience, the people who got us here and constantly saying we don't need you by. We're hunting for a modern audience. We're looking for a neuter, newer audience. Right. And it's like, you know, word of mouth is still the best marketing there is.

[A]

Telling a story is still a pretty good idea.

[B]

It's a good idea. And you, you forego that because you're searching for potential. Right. I've never understood that. There's nothing that. There's no, there's no data out there that says Gen Z was gonna get into Doctor who if you change, change it to a woman.

[A]

There's no data.

[B]

None. There's zero.

[A]

But they'll show up for a good story because they will. The audience is still the audience. So you went from being ignored to being attacked and now you have influence.

[B]

I got attacked and it was.

[A]

Well, you're still being attacked. You're gonna be attacked for this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. As will I. Yeah, you will.

[A]

I will. Sorry I care so much.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

That was my friend. If that's a problem by Felicia, I don't care.

[B]

Thanks brother.

[A]

I mean, I feel like I'm in a coma somewhere. I don't want to wake up. This is, we do this for a living, so who cares?

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's really kind of the greatest gig

[A]

in the world, isn't it?

[B]

So when, when you get attacked on the Internet, like not everybody's gonna, and this is no judgment on. Nobody wants to get the emails I get or you get or nobody wants to get that stuff. But you know, if you keep it in mind, like, I don't know, I've got the grading curve of life or the stuff I've been through, I'm like, this is nothing. Like, I'm not worried about it.

[A]

That's why I spent so much time with your story. Because a lot of the hate you get really isn't warranted because there's no. There's no misogyny in you. There's no racism. There's really no political leaning. You just want your stories told properly and beloved IP just left alone. I think that's okay.

[B]

I think it's okay to adapt something properly. And it doesn't mean you. They have plenty of room in original material to do whatever messaging they want.

[A]

Well, you're influencing studios now. Do you feel that's. That power is earned of having influence in Hollywood because they know who you are. I know that for a fact. I talked to studio execs of all the big studios, and they know who Gary is and Will and everybody, and they're making decisions based on you guys.

[B]

Oh, wow. That I. That doesn't hit my mind very much at all. I try not like, because of where the relapse came in last time, so I try to keep things very much in check. That I am just an idiot with a microphone.

[A]

And because you're back where you are at the comic, you're hot shit again. You can't let ego Gary come back.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because you'll lose it all.

[B]

No. I hope they listen to the people in the comments section and the people in the chat. I hope they, you know, take a good look at that and see what people. Because, you know, during a live stream, we'll have people rewrite the Last Jedi or the last episode, a Starfleet Academy, or we'll have a Robert Meyer Burnett on Friday night tights. Who pitched a better Starfleet Academy than the one they like, one I would watch. You know, so they're. They're. It's not all them slinging, you know, whatever they're slinging.

[A]

So tell me about Friday Night Tights, because that's. You're what, hundreds of episodes of that. How did that start?

[B]

400.

[A]

400. And what is FNT?

[B]

FNT is a show. It is. It's. It's a live stream that we do every Friday. And it is. Climbed up to nine co hosts. And we talk about pop culture every. Every Friday. We've been doing it for this version of it for six years. I've been doing a Friday show for eight years.

[A]

And it's true you've never had anyone black or female on there. That's true.

[B]

Never. Not once? No. Not nobody. Gay? No. Never.

[A]

You're being sarcastic because you have.

[B]

Yes. A lot.

[A]

You have a lot.

[B]

And.

[A]

And what we learn is fans are fans, and the labels don't even matter.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

So what makes FNT different? Because there's a zillion of these shows.

[B]

There is. I think it's the good mix. The chemistry of personalities and no filter at all. And what we really try to lean on like making you laugh. That's the whole point is of the show is to make you laugh. And it's. It's just a bunch of people who like each other genuinely shooting the. For three or four hours. And it's. It's no different than any other conversation of fans anywhere else that you have with your family or at a diner. And there's no plan to it at all. We kind of throw. We bullet point some subjects. We get to about three of them. We go off on tangents so there isn't any real structure. Please don't.

[A]

Don't create any. Just. Just leave it. Chaos.

[B]

I don't even think we know how. I don't know how.

[A]

I. I don't know what I'm doing either. So what Forbidden Frontier is something I came across accidentally and didn't know that Gary did this.

[B]

What is that show is another passion of mine. Like you. I like. I listen to Art Bell.

[A]

Have you ever heard of ART Bell and Dr. Demento?

[B]

Oh yeah. Dr. Demento is. I listened to Dr. Demento before Art Bell. Like years and years.

[A]

Same 70s.

[B]

Yeah. Back in the 70s. And this, this is how I grew up. But yeah. With UFOs and Bigfoot and ancient civilizations. Eric Von Daniken. Charles. Charles Berlitz was like the gateway.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Drug for a lot of people. With the Bermuda Triangle.

[A]

For me it might have been Graham Hancock in the 90s was the gateway to that kind of stuff. The.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The pre Flood society. The fingerprints of the gods.

[B]

Graham, I think graduated the subject to something.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Way more legit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like I always like all respect to the late Eric Von Daniken. Chariots of the Gods. Then we go back to Vilikovsky who honestly I didn't know about till later.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where all of this. Where all of this comes from. And In Search of. I watched In Search of All the Time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And X Files and remember the show Sightings.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

That was the pre. So I've always been into this all my life. And listen to Art. But when. Yeah. When Graham came around, he took the subject of ancient civilizations and made it more palatable. Right. And. And did it honestly.

[A]

And as a real journalist.

[B]

As a real journalist who actually goes places and looks at these things and. And paid for it with his own

[A]

money because Art Bell was the best to ever do it. But some. A lot of it was wacky, man. He was always very respectful, but a lot of it was just wacky. But you read Graham's work, and it's like he's. This is serious stuff. And, you know, Robert Shock and even Randall, Randall Carlson, these are real scientists. This is real stuff.

[B]

It's real stuff. And I mean, you can't undersell when Randall and. And Graham and Randall were doing them separately. But when they got together and did that on Joe Rogan, that really launched it.

[A]

Launched it.

[B]

And that's why we have a lot more legitimacy. And this, including a. A Netflix special with two seasons for Graham Hancock, which I never thought I'd see.

[A]

Nope. And they tried to cancel that.

[B]

They did Ancient Apocalypse.

[A]

Yep. I defended him hard on the channel when he was attacked for being a racist.

[B]

It's like, that is the most ridiculous thing.

[A]

Like, it's like, you don't know anything about this man.

[B]

You obviously haven't seen his wife. Right. So it was very nice.

[A]

Right. So here we go again. But I'm always frightened. Like, I was just getting started. I'm not really controversial, but I am. I go pretty hard against government and all of that. So when. When. When Joe Rogan, when they. When CNN tried to cancel him and they were going after Spotify, I was terrified because I was. I was making a few bucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was like, if they cancel Joe, this all goes away.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And Spotify stuck by him. And then everything started to relax. It's like everything started to change.

[B]

I think was that moment that was surprising.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But they stuck by. Because I know a lot of employees in there didn't want to stick by them.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But I think they saw the investment and saw that. That Joe isn't. What. What CNN was trying to make him out to me. Which is just ridiculous. No, no. He's just a regular guy.

[A]

Like, just a guy.

[B]

He's just a dude. And he looks at things from a very dude perspective. And I think that. That. That. I think it's really endearing. And that's why he's the best podcaster out there.

[A]

And all the things he criticized back in those days. You criticized. I did. Turns out we were right.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which I knew the whole time. We were right. And now we're allowed to be right. And he. Joe kicked that door in.

[B]

Yes, he did.

[A]

By sticking to his guns.

[B]

Spotify sticking with it. Elon coming in and buying Twitter and changing that, which absolutely changed. YouTube.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, and. And Facebook and Everybody. Everything else. YouTube is. It ain't perfect, but it's way. I'm. I haven't been. I'm gonna break the streak. We haven't been demonetized on FNT in. In a long time.

[A]

Well, knock on wood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. I don't dodge that bullet every week. But. But I try.

[B]

I'm used to not doing like, I was fine with it, but it's just. It. What you can get away with now on YouTube, aside from a couple things.

[A]

What do you think happened? What

[B]

I think when. When Elon exposed. Through the Twitter files, when they exposed all the government interference. Because if they were interfering with Twitter, they're. They're at Google right now. They're. They're everywhere right now. They are. They still are, but that had to get loosened up. And I also think advertisers, we. We can't discount the money factor in.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

So advertisers were losing it by. By acting, you know, clutching their pearls and saying, we cannot show ads on this stuff. And they saw how much they were losing, how much money they were losing because you could advertise on all this YouTube stuff.

[A]

And Joe was demonetized the whole time and then woke up one morning and it was just on.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They didn't say anything, Just quiet.

[B]

No. Just because the advertisers loosened up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. They. I would like to have 30 million people look at my ad.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's the same story. It's just about people and audience. It's not about point of view, really.

[B]

No. And it. And it's not like it was. We look back on it and go. That was really common sense. And that was considered highly controversial. That's. That's how we get. We get caught up in this stuff.

[A]

It's one of the darkest times in our history. I'll never forget the day Jen walked in and said, they're gonna lock down the seat. We were in LA at the time. They're gonna lock down the city, close all businesses. And I laughed at her. I said, they can't do that. And they said, they're gonna do it for two weeks. I couldn't believe it. I stayed open.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

Broke curfew, stayed open. Had in the studio. Just went to hell. No one would come in. No masks. They wouldn't come in. And we're out of business. During the riots, that was the end of that.

[B]

The riots. Lovely riots.

[A]

Which weren't really covered on the news, but L. A burned. I've never seen police cars upside down on fire before, but I did. I did that week. And then that's when we left L. A. So Forbidden Frontier is a great success. You guys really know your stuff. Like, I look to you because I don't know anything. I was just an entertainer. I look to you guys. You're the, you're the, like the reporters kicking in the doors following this stuff. I watched you live stream a congressional, Congressional hearing. I think. What do you think's going on with disclosure?

[B]

Oh, God. I think we're in a worse shape now than we ever have been. So. And it's just because I've been following this as a hobby, so I know lots of lit bits and pieces. But you'd have to definitely go to the Richard Dolan's of the world.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

To. For the expertise. Yeah, we, we covered that one and that was frustrating. Just all the stuff that has to go on in the skiff. And I do believe, and it took me a while to get to this, I believe there is a faction in the government that really wants to let us know. Why? I don't know. I think there is some danger involved. I know there's the Stephen Greer point of view where this, the, that all the aliens, if they're out there, if they're us, whatever they are.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're nice. I don't know if I can buy that. Maybe it's a possibility they could. If they could have, if they had the power to wipe us out, they could have wiped us out already. They're certainly that.

[A]

Do you think they're out? Do you think it's extraterrestrials, aliens from other worlds? Or is it interdimensional? Is it future time traveling humans?

[B]

Yes, yes. I think it's yes to all of those. I, I haven't decided yet. I go back and forth. It's definitely something. I just, I think interdimensional maybe is what I'm falling on now that they've been here for a long time. That they're in the water. That they're in the ocean. Yes, that's where I'm leaning. But I could change. That can change. But with that last government hearing where we just heard nothing in the same stuff over and over again, it just, it was discouraging. So if we. I don't know where the UFO topic goes now. I always thought if we get disclosure, it won't be from a government. And even if a government came out, if Trump or whatever president of another party came out and said, yep, we talked, we talked to Zorg from the Pleiades and we have a like half of the country is not going to believe it.

[A]

They're not.

[B]

Just because of the politics of it. So it'll have to be something insane like the Phoenix Lights, a UFO flying slowly over a big city where we can get multiple camera angles and then still half the population will think it's A.I.

[A]

yes, they will.

[B]

It's in a bad place right now. Don't know where you go.

[A]

You've been, you're into the ancient stuff. You've actually gone into the field.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where have you been?

[B]

Been to Peru and Egypt so far. And we're gonna go to Japan. We're gonna go check out megalithic Japan.

[A]

What, Yanaguni?

[B]

Yeah. Well, no, not, I'm not going to be diving, but no, basically where the, where the palace is, you know, just so the polygonal stones we're gonna, we're gonna look at, there's, there's quarries, there's giant stuff on there. But going to Sacsy Woman for the first time, I don't know if you've ever been there, it is mind blowing. Utterly mind blowing. And it really, you know, I can hear all this stuff all day long and I can read all the Graham Hancock. But when I, when you go there and you see like, how in the hell did they do this? And you know, I don't think it was aliens. I always think it was humans. We were pretty industrious. I don't think it's that crazy to think that there was a civilization that was maybe as advanced, let's say, as the Romans were, you know, 10,000 years before the Romans or 8,000 years before the Romans that got wiped out during a apocalypse, basically during a cataclysm that looked like actually happened.

[A]

It is looking like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With Gobekli Tepe and on Kuku Kutarla, it looks like they were here. Great pyramid Egyptians built or found,

[B]

I think built from direction, from plans, for lack of a better term, from blueprints from a previous culture.

[A]

Interesting. Previous culture.

[B]

So maybe there was a foundation there already that they, I, I think the pyramids have been, have been rebuilt.

[A]

There's some.

[B]

Probably multiple times. There's some evidence kind of like, well, the Sphinx for sure. The Sphinx has been put back together. We were just there in Egypt and we saw, you know, the, the erosion evidence that Robert Schock and John Anthony west had exposed many, many years ago. Yeah, they're putting a wall over it.

[A]

They're putting a wall over that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So you went hard after Zahi was, after he was on Joe's show.

[B]

Yeah. He was ridiculous

[A]

do you think he's gatekeeping or do you think he's protecting his culture? There's a national identity to Egypt, to Egyptians that's. That they're proud of and should be.

[B]

Yeah, I think that that is the, I think that is the motivation behind some of the, the, the roadblocking we're seeing on some of the archaeology is they're trying to protect Peruvy. Peru's a lot cooler about it than, than Egypt is. I got to be careful. I don't, I, I don't trust the things Hawass says. I think he's a complete. I think he's shady as hell.

[A]

It wasn't a good look for him on that show.

[B]

And no, he, he did, he did more, he did more good for Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, and he really did Robert Shock than anybody could have dreamt after that appearance. Always talking about his book, taking credit for stuff that he didn't discover. And, and some people who've met him said he's a complete nice guy. But I just. The impression I get is he is stopping progress there and maybe, you know, tell us why. I think the most exciting thing is the labyrinth. The labyrinth in Egypt. Ben Van Kirkwyk, this is the Huara. Yeah. Has done some great work on this. Not that he discovered it, but he's done some great work. Uncharted X has done some great work and great videos on these. And I think that would be the most exciting discovery of the 21st century. We need. And, and there's some politics behind it. It's getting flooded out. And there is because of the water is being diverted, because they need to help agriculture.

[A]

Which they do.

[B]

Which they do. They need to find a way to divert that water so we can drain it and figure out what's down there.

[A]

And we don't have much time for that.

[B]

No, we don't.

[A]

And Lidar has shown that there are. We know there's structures down there. And that labyrinth has been discussed by Ovid, Pliny the Elder, all these great historians, Strabo all visited and said it goes. They saw 3,500 rooms. It goes down three stories. It's there. Some have said there's a giant oval ring made of metal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the center of it.

[B]

The exact same size. Well, not exact, but close to the same size as the Tic Tac.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's wild. And I would love to know and why not? But, you know, Zahi seems to stop a lot of that stuff. And you would think you know it. Egypt relies a lot on tourism. That would. That would be a. I'd love to see that. I would. I'd go back. I'd go back. It was definitely worth going for. Sure. It was amazing seeing some of that stuff. Egypt's an interesting country, but you've got your media empire.

[A]

What do we have?

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

We've got fnt. Forbidden Frontier. You got your videos. Neurotic Daily.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What else are you doing?

[B]

Oh, my God. I think that's pretty much wraps that. That's it.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

That's a lot. That keeps me busy. I've got a couple editors, X Ray Girl, you know, Cord Black, Perry Chan, and. Well, we. We. We do tours once in a while with Michael Collins from Wandering Wolf.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we'll be doing the Japan thing. That takes up all my time and,

[A]

you know, you're living the dream now.

[B]

Absolutely. This is the greatest gig in the world.

[A]

You said Daily Practice, Gratitude Daily.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What's. What's the mechanics of that? Because some days are shitty, man.

[B]

That's when it's the most important.

[A]

So what do I do? How do you do it?

[B]

Oh, you catch yourself okay. I catch myself in a bad mood or feeling excessively negative about just, like, really mundane stuff in life. And I just. It's. It's a mindset of turning it around by thinking of three. Three things that you're thankful for. And the first one could be, wow, I've got. There's a wife out there who loves me for some reason. I don't know why, but she does. Um, my kids like me. That's awesome. Not every. Not every kid loves their father. And, you know, and we have this amazing job like that that, thanks to the support of so many brilliant people out there. It's definitely something we. We work at. Right. But it's like, I've said it before, it's like winning a lottery that you work really hard to get to.

[A]

That's a great way of describing it. You go into meetings.

[B]

Yes, Go to meetings.

[A]

So. And we'll wrap up with this. There are people listening now because I know they're out there that are addicted, that are struggling, depression, they're in booze and drugs to cope. Can you tell them who the most important person in their life is?

[B]

Oh, they are.

[A]

They are.

[B]

They are. They're the most important person in their lives. And. And people love them, people care about them, and it. The world can still benefit from them turning stuff around. It's never too late. It's Never, ever too late. And if you try sobriety, I can promise you it will not be easy. But I could also promise you it will get better way faster. Your life will get better way faster than you think. And just give it a try. You know, people can try re. I don't want to discourage anybody from getting sober any way they want, but definitely, whatever you do, make sure you go to meetings too. Really, they're free. And you'll find some of the most welcoming, forgiving people on earth in there and just make some friends. See what happens.

[A]

You're an inspiration. You're the proof that it works. Gary, thanks for coming in and spending time. Cheers.

[B]

It's been awesome. Thanks.

[A]

Bye, everybody. That was Gary Buechler. I know. His name is spelled wrong. Everyone calls him Bouchler. Gary Beechler. The Prison Story, the Comic Shop, the Relapse, the Comeback, Doctor who, the Access Media. We covered a lot. Gary's book covers the old Folsom story in full. And it's a different kind of read than you'd expect from a pop culture guy if you only know him from Nerdrotic.

[B]

Buckle up.

[A]

The book is wild. I was gonna say in graphic. It's not that graphic, but it's pretty intense. So there's not much to analyze about what we talked about here because Gary is my friend. But here's a few nuggets. The Doctor who situation he described tracks with what actually happened. Series 11 opened huge, over 9 million viewers in the UK. Then the new showrunner retconned the Doctor's origin in series 12, rewriting 55 years of canon in a single episode. Ratings collapsed. The BBC eventually replaced everyone and brought the original showrunner back. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Gary mentioned Disney was racking up some serious losses. While Disney did report roughly 1 1.5 to $2.5 billion in content write downs in 2023, Gary's math is correct. Gary is controversial, but he probably shouldn't be. His grievances aligned with what a lot of people were already feeling. He was just one of the first people to call it out. The pattern he identified, putting politics ahead of story, showed up in Doctor who and Star Trek and Marvel and Star wars and Lord of the Rings. And now in Harry Potter. He called it every time before most people were even paying attention. Gary's memoir is wading From Prison to YouTube on Amazon, and it's a great read. His channel is nerdrotic. Friday Night Tights goes live every Friday Forbidden Frontier is where he covers ancient mysteries, UAPS and why files kind of stuff. It's probably better than the why files. The links are down below. Until next time, be safe, be kind and know that you are appreciated. I was a little mumbly do another take. Leave it in.

[B]

I play Philippi 51 a secret code inside the Bible said I would

[A]

I

[B]

love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music song singing like I should but then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends and it never ends no, it never ends Hand. I feel the crab cat I got stuck inside mel's home with MK truck I being only 2 aware did Stanley Kubrick face the moon Landing alone on a film set with the shadow people there the Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man I'm told and his name was cold But I can't believe I'm dancing with the fishes Head to fish on Thursday nights with a J2 and W W w it all through. And the solar stones still come to Agatha the secret city underground Mysterious number stations Planet Surf O2, Project Stargate and what the dark watchers found. Oh, I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish handle fish on Thursday nights with they J2 when the weapons through the night All I ever wanted was to just hear the troops of weapons. When they d you and weapons I. Ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

[A]

You love to dance?

[B]

K loves to dance. Yeah, K loves to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel and camels love to dance. When the feeling is right. Always in time.

[A]

Sa.