← The Why Files: Operation Podcast
The Why Files: Operation Podcast
The Basement: Travis Taylor | Black Holes, UFOs & Skinwalker Ranch
03:33:45
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- [00:01]
A
When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Today we're talking with Dr. Travis Taylor. He's written 25 science fiction novels. He holds five advanced degrees and wrote the textbooks on rocket science, laser science, and quantum field theory. He fueled a rocket with moonshine on national geographic and spent 35 years on classified defense projects. Somehow, one guy did all that, and moonshine is the only fuel the government can't trace. That wasn't a stunt. That was tradecraft. When the government needed a scientist for a real UFO task force, they picked the redneck rocket scientist. Eight years later, he's still the lead scientist at Skinwalker Ranch. You've seen him on the show today. We're covering what he pulled out of that mesa and why. A drone swarm fell out of the sky at 3,000ft. Actually, 3,271ft. All of them. I kind of wanted to tell you why, but you need to be surprised as I was. We also talked about his paper arguing that our universe sits inside a black hole, which means our entire universe is just a tiny black hole in somebody else's sky. The math works. Oh, a tribal leader called him to say the sky people are taking him inside that mesa at Skimwalker Ranch. But he refuses to remember. And he was like, fine. Then two days later, a remote viewer told him the same thing. He goes inside the mesa and refuses to remember it. I spent 15 years trying to forget my second wife. This man has a gift. After a conversation, he'll come back and break down the talk. Let's go down to the basement. Doctor Travis Taylor. Welcome to the basement.
- [02:16]
B
Thanks, man. You left out black belt martial artist.
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A
Did I?
- [02:20]
B
Yeah. Scuba diver, pilot. You know, all that stuff.
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A
What system did you train in?
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B
Well, I've trained in two systems. Shin Nagari, which was American taekwondo, and then white tiger Kenpo.
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A
Kenpo Myself?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Four different systems.
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B
Wow.
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A
Cool. Yep. That's great. Love to meet a Kenpo guy. There's not a lot of us around.
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B
In 2000, I was the Alabama state champion in fighting. Open fighting. Yeah.
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A
Wow.
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B
That was a long time ago. Long time ago.
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A
My first black belt I got from Nick Cereo, who got his from Ed. And my fourth black belt I got from Larry Tatum, who got his from Ed.
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B
Oh, nice.
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A
So it's great lineage. So I want to start with an apology. So last night I'm talking to my wife Jen, and she's like, so are you ready for tomorrow? I said, I don't know, man. I don't know if I can keep up with Dr. Taylor. He's done so much. And she said, well, he emailed you. He's a fan of the show. I said, what? And two years ago you sent me an email and I never saw it. So I apologize for that. Some of it says it's about all the stuff I got wrong. I am that Travis Taylor, chief scientist at the UAP, ATF, 35 years, DOD, ICA, NASA. I co own a company now with Jay Stratton and Lou Elizondo, longtime friend, colleagues of how but off Kit Green, et cetera. By the way, you say if you believe in remote viewing or not, you should add a caveat that has been scientifically proven and you think you understand the mechanism for how it works. Loved your episode on the Aviary. But folks always get hal wrong. Bigelow's work at skinwalker that has or has been found there. Modern UAP work is misunderstood. Big Art Bell fan. You were the first to analyze arts parts back in the day with art and Linda a few times wrote you back. So we're going to get to all that today. And then this morning I get because I wrote you back. Thank you for all that. You only come through Vegas before going to China Lake nts and somewhere else. I guess we know where that is. Never stop to smell the strippers. We can fix that tonight. I can't wait to meet you, straighten you out in some nonsense you've been told. Dude, I can talk about anything nonsense. I want to get to all that today. All the stuff I got wrong. Because you were there for all of it, ma'. Am.
- [04:31]
B
Well, if I was there for all of it, I know the people who were for firsthand and so maybe I can help you put the pieces together.
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A
I'd like that everyone starts with Skinwalker with you. But I got to do this for me. I want to start with the universe in a black hole. Is that the paper you're working on?
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B
Yeah.
- [04:50]
A
So for your next PhD, you need another one of those?
- [04:53]
B
Well, so a lot of people ask me why so many degrees? Why all this want to do all these different things? For the longest I was Trying to get in the astronaut program. And, you know, you look at like Story Musgrave, for example, that guy's got umpteen master's degrees. He jumps out of planes at, you know, 30,000ft and all sorts of things. You know, test pilot, all that stuff. And so I thought, well, you got to compete with those guys. You really, you got to bring your A game. And also my goal when I was a kid, I was about 10 years old, my dad, who was a master tool maker, he brought me a book. It was a beat up paperback book. And he said, son, I've been reading this. I think you would really enjoy it. Why don't you read it and then we'll talk about it. And it was Erich Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods. Wow. And so I read it, absorbed it, read it again, bent pages on it so that we could come back and talk about it. And my dad and I, since that time, from 48 years ago, we still to this day, we discuss new ideas that we've discovered, say in some religious text or theological book or even just a poem somewhere written in history. And we say, well, that sounds a lot like that. They're describing technology. And that's what got me into understanding the universe from the ancient aliens sort of perspective. Giorgio Tsouklas likes to say ancient astronaut theory. I keep explaining to him a theory has a much larger acceptance. This is a hypothesis, right? It is an ancient astronaut hypothesis. But that's okay. You know, he's not a scientist, he's a researcher. And I applaud everything that these, that the guys have done, Even if sometimes they go off in weird rabbit holes and lead you down a path that isn't the right answer. That's okay. That's how you learn, right? There's. And the other reason. So not to skew too far, there was a. When it came out that I had been the chief scientist of the UAP task force, there was a guy who wrote a article in, I think it was the Washington Post. It said, government critics mystified or baffled by the government's choice of guy who believes in paranormal for the UAP task force chief scientist. I've never once said I believe in anything paranormal. I don't even like the word paranormal. Because if it's paranormal, paranormal means not within the universe. And if it's within the universe, or if it's not within the universe, then how are we seeing it and studying it? Right? It's something that's happening as some as I don't Believe in the word fringe because there's such thing as fringe science. Science is science. If it's an unknown, you got to study it. But, but in that article, the guy even went so far as to say his alleged education. Alleged, alleged education.
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A
He didn't do his homework, man.
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B
And I'm like, you gonna take pictures of my diplomas on my wall and my study at home? Or I'm sure my mom's got pictures of graduations, you know, not like other folks who claim they have master's degrees from somewhere and they can't even prove they went there. Not, not to get into that. But my point about that is, yeah, he didn't do his homework for a reason. And that's where there's somebody. There's an active source of people. Whether it's an act of general conspiracy, just culturally or there's officially something being driven to discredit anybody who's asking questions. For example, you know, Michael Shermer's a smart guy. He's a really smart guy. But his answer is always the skeptical answer from the start. And that's actually a violation of the scientific method.
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A
Honestly, I think he's getting his directives from somewhere.
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B
Yeah. So I think that's the point and that's what I'm gonna. And I wanted to make a point about something. That's why I brought that up.
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A
There's a billboard near Wall street that's been counting up the national debt since 1989. Seven digits back then, 14. Now we just crossed $39 trillion. And every three weeks another trillion gets added. The 30 year treasury is sitting near 5% right now. Which means that the bond market itself is telling you it doesn't trust Washington to handle this. Historically speaking, there's only one way out of debt this size and that's you inflate the currency and devaluing what you owe. You want to know who's not waiting around to see where this goes? Foreign central banks. They're dumping dollars and buying gold at the fastest pace in decades. Real assets win in debt devaluation. Gold and precious metals can show you where to put savings into physical gold and silver. Tax and penalty free if it's inside an IRA or 401k. Everything is free. No obligation, no pressure. You get a free investor kit and free portfolio review. And right now, up to $25,000 in free silver on qualifying purchases. Visit goldencrestmetals.com the Y Files or text the word files to medals. That's 63825. You'll receive a free investor kit explaining how physical gold and silver can be added to an IRA or 401k. A free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell, and on qualifying purchases, up to $25,000 in bonus silver.
- [10:14]
B
I'll give you a real simple example so that you can use to explain to anybody. Let's say we have the videos have come out and somebody says, well, we believe we can show. Why invoke UFOs? This could just be some phenomena. Airplane light glinting off of it. You know, as Will Smith said, light reflecting from Venus.
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A
Right.
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B
Well, that's fine. That is a possible solution. It's not the only solution. What's the square root of four, Right?
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A
Two.
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B
No, it's not. Square root of four is plus or minus two.
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A
That's true.
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B
Think about that. Because minus two times minus two, that's true, is still four. There are two solutions to that question, and either one are equally valid. So is it light reflecting off of swamp gas from Venus or whatever? Or could it be something else? If it is a solution, a viable solution, it is still a possibility that has to be investigated. And so that's why I wonder why there's something saying, well, don't look at that set of solutions. It's never minus two, it's always two.
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A
Right. That's the Collins Group.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. We call. We don't call that. We don't know who they are, but within the task force, we called them the antibodies.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And we would run into the antibodies often, and we. Just for asking questions. Right. And when we became the official UAP task force, the National Defense Authority Authorization Act NDAA of 2019 and 2020 gave us authority to be briefed at all classifications.
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A
At all.
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B
All classifications. So. And they didn't have to. They didn't have to brief us in and say, this is the technology, how it works. But if we asked them, was this you? They had to tell us bylaw, and it said that there's a felony if they didn't. And we had. We had multiple star officers tell us that they would commit the felony before telling us.
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A
Of course. Of course they would.
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B
So that to me, that is, they're admitting that they're going to break the law.
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A
It's treason.
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B
Yeah, sorry, I got us off on a tangent.
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A
No, that's okay.
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B
But that's why. That's why I. I've tried to learn everything I possibly can since I was 17 years old to get behind that door, to see these things, understand these things. And number one, what if we need to be doing something. We don't have an Avengers Initiative.
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A
Right. That's true. That's on my list. Is when you were 17, how you worked on SDI, but black holes.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Archipathria said universe is a black hole in the 70s. We've got poplowski in the 2010s. So this is not new. But your paper, I think, says our universe could fit into, like, five to ten solar masses.
- [13:12]
B
Yes. So the paper that I. It's really weird how it came about. I was actually working on a simulation hypothesis presentation for a conference. I forget which conference it was. And I was looking at world maps of video games, like, say, Minecraft. You got the square world map or, you know, whatever, and how they worked. And I realized that since you couldn't go. They weren't like the old Atari in Asteroids, where you go off this side and you come back on this side. Right. You know, that's actually a sphere. People don't realize that. But I was looking at the world map, and I realized you can't go outside the boundaries of that. And so the video game itself has an event horizon. Okay, that hit my. And at the same time, I pulled a picture that was made by a cosmology group. Anybody can go find it. It's a circle that. That shows sort of a logarithmic plot across time and space to the edge of our universe. And it's a big circle and shows we're somewhere near the middle. And then you got the giant galaxies that when they were beginning to form, and all this out at the edge of time when the Big Bang allegedly occurred. And there's nothing beyond that circle that you can see. And I look at it and say, well, this is exactly the same world map as in Minecraft. There's an event horizon on our world map that we can't see beyond. And I said, the only thing that I know of, like that that has an event horizon that traps all the information on the inside of it is a black hole. And then I realized, well, Stephen Hawking actually wrote. Wrote a paper with a guy named Bekenstein that black holes actually do emit a certain amount of radiation, but it's so tiny that the amount of radiation. It's such a long wavelength and. And so low energy, we can't build detectors to detect it. So it'll be decades before anybody can prove or disprove Hawking's concept, his hypothesis. But it matches with the math and everything. So it's probably true. It's just. We can't prove it for a long time. We get better at building instruments. But I realized, I said, well, if there's energy leaking out of this black hole, well, then that energy is a signature of what's inside it. And so you know how you can take your radio dial in your car back in the old days when you could turn, you could see all the numbers there. That's the frequency spectrum of all the transmissions your radio can do, right? In time it sends a signal, but across the frequencies you can see all these spots on the dial. Well, I thought, now what if the signal, if we look at its spectrum, if it tells us all the information that's inside coming from the inside of the black hole. And when I did certain types of math, it let me reproduce what we see as modern cosmology running backwards from the outside looking in. So in other words, we believe we have models of our universe, right, Going this way, expanding outward from the Big Bang. Well, in a black hole, if you look at it from the outside in, times reversed, and it would be falling inward. And I thought, well, now that's an interesting corollary. And so I used all the, the math from Hawking and everything and, and I, and I ran a bunch of my. It took me a lot built. It's such long Python code that it took me forever. I had to vibe code a lot of it with, you know, chat, gbt, because I'm not a super computer hacker, you know, but you have to always go back and make sure the math is right because, you know, AI will, will give you fake stuff.
- [16:46]
A
It will.
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B
But anyway, so once I ran the models over and over and over and convinced myself that the code was right, it showed that any, any black hole between 5 and 10 solar masses should have similar cosmology as our, our universe. Which suggests, now, I'm not saying it proves it, but it suggests that we live in a black hole that's about somewhere between 5 and 10 solar masses. And my model stopped somewhere about 7.2 solar masses.
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A
So Poplowski said that we would inherit the characteristics and spin of our parent black hole. But what I can't square is the Schwarzschild radius.
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B
Well, so the Schwarzschild radius is only something you see from the outside. Oh, that's the event horizon. So we can't go past it. We can't get out that.
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A
Well, explain Swarchschild for the folks listening.
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B
Yeah, so if you take amount of mass and you squish it as small as you can make it, there is a radius around it spherically makes a virtual sphere, say a geometric sphere around it. And at that radius is the race where light can't even escape the gravitational attraction. Even light will fall in right there. So there's no way, unless maybe you have warp drive that you could escape or quantum tunneling.
- [18:06]
A
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- [19:08]
B
pdsdebt.com basement and so the interesting parallel though, AJ when I was doing this was it led back to my simulation hypothesis presentation because like Elon Musk has said that he believed that he believe there's any chance that we're in the prime universe, that we're in a nested
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A
simulation, what in billions.
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B
A simulation within a simulation with a simulation. Well, look across our cosmology, how many black holes there are. And within our universe we see black holes everywhere, right? And, and if we're in a black hole, that means that there are black holes in our black hole. And those black holes probably have black holes in those black holes. And those black holes will have holes in those black holes. And it's turtles all the way down and all the way up.
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A
So could our universe be a black hole in someone else's sky?
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B
Yes, that's, that's the point. It's turtles all the way down and all the way up.
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A
Do you know Lee Smolin's work at all?
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B
That name sounds really familiar.
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A
I'm not sure his theory is cosmological natural selection, where if the universe is a black hole, it's always looking for ways to just create more of them. It's almost like the anthropic principle, but on the black hole level. Wow.
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B
Yeah, well, that's. I mean, that gives it sort of a purpose, an intent, like the Genesis device.
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A
It almost sounds intentional.
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B
Yeah, well, so if you want to talk about intent, let's do it.
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A
We'll get the skinwalker.
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B
We got time. So I did a. This is really interesting. There are two things and one of them I won't talk about, but there are two things that I've got ChatGPT to bring up a warning banner and says it won't go any further on it. And then why this one is so odd? I wanted to prove. I wanted to go through the probability that evolution could occur.
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A
It would let you do this.
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B
I got to the model. So I started. We started creating a model. It's called a heuristic model. Basically the probability of this and then the probability of this. Basically the Drake equation.
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A
Sure.
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B
But for evolution.
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A
Right.
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B
But I kept getting it more and more complex and more and more complex and more and more complex until we got to the point where I said, now run the probabilities of this. And it ran the probabilities and showed that there's no way within many, like hundreds. It's like 100 to 100 to 100 to 100 orders of magnitude that the universe have to be that old for it to have happened. And I said, then the only way it could have happened was through engineering intent that someone changed something in the model. Then a banner come up and said, this is getting into theological discrediting or something. And it said, we can't discuss this any further.
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A
Now, hold on. Change something in the model? Epoch transitions is a thing.
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B
Yes.
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A
So ChatGPT doesn't know that.
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B
Well, but see, that's not. The epoch changes from the radiation dominant to the matter dominant to the dark matter dominant. All that which is actually interesting in my Black Hole paper. That actually is a. An effect. It is, yes. It actually should have happened according. But something. Somebody changed something in the Matrix.
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A
Right.
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B
And. Well, Chat GPT won't. Doesn't want to accept. The AI doesn't want to accept. I've tried it with Grok too, and with. And with Deep Seek and all. So it's not just. I'm not picking on OpenAI, you know,
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A
you tried it with, like, Kimmy and
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B
I've tried it with Claude. I have. I haven't. I've tried it with Claude Deep Seek Grok and Chat GPT. And they all come with the same answer, that it's impossible that something, somebody had to change, had to make some glitz. Change something.
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A
Right.
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B
For it to go down this path because there's so many infinite bifurcations for the probability. And, you know, that's, you know, it doesn't violate your religion in any way. Right. I mean, anybody's religion. They said God, God created people. Well. Or whatever, the universe. Well, this. I did it right.
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A
Simulation theory and religion is the same thing.
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B
Yeah. I tell people all the time, if I'm going to create a universe, am I going to go get a cauldron and start putting in like, you know, witches brew stuff and hope it blows up and creates the thing I want, or am I going to get in an environment where I can control everything, which is a computer simulation environment where I can create a physics engine and have Mario jump as high as he can jump and run his stand on one toenail at the edge of a cliff, you know, do whatever. And I can control that. And if I don't like where it's working, I can hit the pause button and change a subroutine here or there.
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A
Sure.
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B
And start it back up.
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A
Yep.
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B
That sounds a lot like the epochs that we just talked about.
- [23:50]
A
It sure does. I bring up all the time on this show is Philip K. Dick's talk.
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B
That is one of the greatest. They should make every person in high school watch that speech.
- [24:01]
A
Agreed.
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B
Philip K. Dick's speech is the most powerful speech by a man who spent his life writing art. You're making stories, science fiction stories. And you know, people. Blade Runner for. Everybody knows what Blade Runner is. Right. But Philip K. Dick, his stories, when you hear that speech and he's telling you they aren't stories.
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A
It's not science fiction.
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B
They're my memories of an alternate reality that for some reason I can still remember and everybody else has forgotten.
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A
You see the faces in the crowd.
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B
What's great, though, because it's in Paris or wherever it is, it's in French. Right. And you hear the translator going. And then you hear the murmur. That is one of the most fascinating speeches in the history of mankind, I think.
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A
Yeah. He talks about man in the High Castle. He said, I just remembered this, that the Axis won the war.
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B
When he talks about the lady that comes to visit him.
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A
Yes.
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B
That is bizarre and fantastic at the same time.
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A
Yeah. And I believe him.
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B
I don't think he had any reason to bring it up.
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A
Nope.
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B
Unless it was some kind of weird, bizarre, you know, hallucinogenic trip that he had been on or something. But I don't. He didn't. His writing didn't portray that.
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A
No, it didn't.
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B
It was very matter of fact.
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A
Absolutely was.
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B
And for that speech he believed you could see. Unless he's the best actor in the world, unless he's like, you know, George C. Scott or something.
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A
Right.
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B
He believed every word he was saying. And I think everybody should watch that speech because it's just unbelievable and fantastic.
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A
Totally agree. How does your black hole theory and your thoughts of simulation dovetail into your study of the Gnostic texts?
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B
Well, I think they're one and the same. I think the Gnostic text, and not just the Gnostic text, but other ancient texts, the, the Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, various other Taoist texts. I think they're all tons of the same stories, but the Gnostic texts specifically spell it out in great detail. The Apocrypha, John, the Book of Philip. They talk specifically about the universe before this all loving being. And then he creates sort of a companion being who gets bored out there in the infinite and creates a shadow universe.
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A
So that's Sophia, getting bored.
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B
Sophia.
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A
So wisdom. Yeah, getting bored.
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B
Yeah. So Sophia is, you know, according to the Gnostic, you know, text is. I guess we call it. We use Sophia, I guess because we think she's female or there's a female aspect to it, feminine aspect, but she's an explorer and goes through all of the heavens, which is called the Pleroma in the Gnostic text, and gets bored. So she creates a place to go and have adventures in, I guess. But when she creates this dark realm out of the shadows, so the matter is apparently the shadow of the light beings of the Pleroma. And when she creates it, this other being appears. And it's real vague to me how the Gnostic texts, or at least I interpret it, did she cause this being, this dark being to occur or did it just manifest? And it's called. The name is like Yaldabaoth, also referred to as the Demiurge. And the Demiurge is the God of the shadow world and believes he is the only God. Right, Right.
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A
But he's not.
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B
But he's also a petty God. Right? He. Because he. He doesn't want anyone to think that they're more powerful than him or whatever. And he creates these demons, the archons, to basically agents to do jobs. Right. For him. And I find it really interesting because it sounds Just like in the books of Enoch, where the All High has all these other deities, these angels or archangels or whatever, to do certain jobs. Like one of them controls the weather, one of them controls this one. That sounds just like in a video game simulation architecture, you have subroutines and agents to do all these different things. Right?
- [28:11]
A
Sure.
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B
And I think the Gnostic, then in the Gnostic text, the interesting part to me is how Sophia saw these beings that the demiurge was creating out of the shadow, the matter, and they didn't have a spark of life. So she splits herself into infinite pieces, goes into this dark universe, and puts a piece of her in all the beings, basically the soul. And Apocrypha. John, the Last Supper is a completely different Last Supper than the one I was taught in Sunday school.
- [28:45]
A
In what way?
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B
Well, so Jesus doesn't come there and tell them that he's there to save all the sins of mankind.
- [28:52]
A
Oh, no.
- [28:54]
B
Well, I mean, what happens is he tells the apostles that he is from the pleroma and to get back you have to go through the monad or become one with the monad, whatever that means. Right. It's a doorway. Is it your pineal gland? Whatever. I don't know. But he says that the only way to get there is to be true to yourself and within. You don't need to go to a church. He actually tells them, right.
- [29:20]
A
God isn't there.
- [29:21]
B
God is not in that church, it's in you. Yes. And he says, I'm here to return basically his mother Sophia, all the sparks of her back to the pleroma. And that's completely different than what I was told in Sunday school.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah, they buried it for a reason.
- [29:37]
B
Well, that leads me to think at that point that the stories that Paul rewrote the Bible basically on his business purposes.
- [29:48]
A
Yes.
- [29:51]
B
Is probably true because he wrote it in a way that you have to come to the church, you have to sacrifice for the church, you have to be submissive to the church, and that puts the church. What? Oh, in control.
- [30:02]
A
In control.
- [30:03]
B
Right. When Jesus, according to the Gnostic text, said the church isn't in control of anything, you are in control. You have to reflect inward and be in control of yourself. And that is completely opposite to the story that most of the religions are telling us.
- [30:18]
A
Right. Remember when the full Bible was found in Ethiopia all those years ago? Oh. And they said. And, and he said, what? What is all this? And they said, that's the Bible. I said, there's too many books here. Book of Enoch, Philip is in there, all this stuff. They're like, no, this is the Bible. In 367, they took all. They threw all this away.
- [30:34]
B
Yeah.
- [30:34]
A
Buried it. And now this is the Bible.
- [30:37]
B
Well, I want to know who those people were in the 360s, 364, 367. There was. There was a three or four years where they sat there and said, well, this book we use, this book we won't use. Why. Why would they say, take out, for example, Jesus telling the apostles in the book Apocryphal of John how to see the demiurges archons. Now, this is really interesting, and it's actually become an interesting experiment for Skinwalker Ranch, which I know we're going to get to.
- [31:07]
A
We're going to get to.
- [31:09]
B
But he tells them that you can see the archons through your peripheral vision. And the interesting thing about that is he actually explains it. He says, because your eyes can see different light in your peripheral vision than straight on. He said, don't turn to look at them or you won't see them. And we now know that your peripheral vision can see further into the infrared than. Than the center part of your eye. And how did he know that? Whoever wrote, even if it's a fictional story written 2,000 years ago, how did he know 2,000 years ago, number one, about infrared light and number two, that your eyes work better for infrared light with your peripheral vision. So somebody knew something to tell this story, whether it's real or not. And that, to me, is at least enough evidence that somebody knew something that the rest of the world did not know. How.
- [32:08]
A
How you hire a shark as your lifeguard. Technically, he's watching the water, just not for the reason you'd hope. There's a reason you wouldn't hire a shark to keep you safe in the ocean. Just like there's a reason why Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. Here's the truth behind the name. Founder John Morgan started this firm after his brother Tim was catastrophically injured as a teenager working at Disney World. Tim's case got mishandled, and John walked away knowing the system was rigged against families who couldn't fight back. So he built something better. For over 35 years, Morgan and Morgan has fought for the people going up against powerful companies who'd rather your case just quietly disappear. Compassion, Transparency. No upfront fees. Hiring them is like hiring an army for battle. Over a thousand lawyers, 100 officers, offices, all 50 states. Making sure your file never vanishes. That's part of how they've recovered more than $30 billion for their clients. Not all law firms are the same. Hire the wrong one and you may be beat before you even start. If you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan, and their fee is free unless they win. For more information, you can go to. For the People Dot com. Yes. So if we're. If our universe is inside this veil, do you think there's other universes like ours with their own veils? With their own.
- [33:28]
B
You ever played video games on a server?
- [33:30]
A
Of course.
- [33:32]
B
Well. And you go to the lobby.
- [33:34]
A
Yep.
- [33:34]
B
Like, you know, Roblox, for example? There's 14 doors. Right. You can go in this door and you play that Titanic game. Or you can go in this door and it's some kind of parkour game. Or you can play this game and it's a player versus player game. Right. Well, you heard the story of Vishnu from the Hindu text Vishnu. As Vishnu would breathe, exhale, or sweat, each little bead of moisture would become a new universe. And Vishnu would then take on different avatars in these different universes and have adventures.
- [34:11]
A
Yep.
- [34:12]
B
Sounds a lot like that lobby we were just talking about.
- [34:14]
A
It does.
- [34:15]
B
I always wondered if Vishnu is just the game console.
- [34:19]
A
Wow. It sounds like it.
- [34:20]
B
Right.
- [34:21]
A
So that would mean that all these universes is really all the same spark, right?
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
It's all the same source.
- [34:27]
B
Yeah. So who made it?
- [34:28]
A
I don't know who made it.
- [34:30]
B
Where is it?
- [34:31]
A
Where is it? Yeah. If there's an edge of the universe, there's got to be something else out there. But you can ask theologians and physicists and you get weird answers, man.
- [34:39]
B
Well, because it sort of violates their sense of sensibility. Like the ancient one told Dr. Strange in Dr. Strange. Right. Is that if a spell upsets your senses, then call it an algorithm. Right?
- [34:56]
A
Right.
- [34:57]
B
We put too much emphasis on it. Sounds like something that offends me. Right. Well, science isn't offensive. Science is just there. I mean, it's just a thing. That's why there's no such thing as fringe science. Right. There's nowhere in the scientific method is the word fringe. Nowhere. And this is, I will get up on anybody's soapbox and beat it with a hammer.
- [35:18]
A
Right.
- [35:19]
B
Nowhere. Does it say anything about extraordinary evidence. Never in the scientific method. Is the word extraordinary evidence used. Carl Sagan did a huge disservice to humanity by making that statement. He did that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No, extraordinary. Extraordinary claims require you to follow the scientific method. Any evidence is evidence in the scientific method. That must be analyzed. And when you do all, add all the evidence together, do all the analysis, that's when you can maybe support or discredit the claim. The extraordinary claim has nothing to do with extraordinary evidence. It sounds to me like people say he had a change of heart or something at some point, like they got to him.
- [36:05]
A
I think so, because he was a UFO believer and then he wasn't.
- [36:10]
B
You read that book that he wrote with the Russian guy on. I forget the name of the book, but it was way before Cosmos and it was basically studying the Drake Equation and about the possibility of life and everything. And they're all like, well, yeah, there's gotta be everywhere, right? And then suddenly, oh, no, I don't think there's life out there. It's probably not. And there's no UFOs and, and you can watch even speeches that he did where he said UFO should be investigated and then, oh no, there's nothing to it. Right. So it does sound like a lot of the conspiracy stuff that we hear, right? That somebody got to him, maybe they offered him something. Well, one way or the other, if I hear scientists use that statement, I always, number one, do a knee jerk reaction and say, who taught you that? Where did that come from? That's not the scientific method. Go back and read the scientific method. And so I, absolutely. I might make extraordinary claims because I'm from the South. We speak in hyperbole and euphemisms and all sorts of exaggerations. Right. But I never say it as a. It's the fact. Right. Or it's the thing. I may say, holy crap, what is that? But then I might say, oh, well, it was just one of these. But then I might say, wow, it's one of those.
- [37:33]
A
As your doctoral committee seen your paper yet?
- [37:36]
B
No, the one of my advisors has. The entire committee has not.
- [37:41]
A
What do they.
- [37:41]
B
What does he think he said it was? He said it was above him, actually.
- [37:45]
A
Really?
- [37:46]
B
Yeah.
- [37:47]
A
I can't wait to read it.
- [37:49]
B
I'll send you a copy of it. It's a lot of. It's a lot of, you know, quantum field theory and general relativity kind of, and thermodynamics thrown together. It's a lot of graduate level math, but that's the way most scientific papers are. It's. It's all math. And unless you understand the math, it doesn't mean a lot to you. I always. My first PhD committee chairman, he told me, he took me to, before I did my final defense, took me to an elementary school and, and have Me present my work to the third graders. And he said, if you can't explain it to a third grader, you don't understand it.
- [38:26]
A
That makes a lot of sense to me.
- [38:27]
B
Yeah. And so think about this. If the phenomena is a strange effect in just a weird mathematical formula, how in the hell do you explain that to a third grader? You have to really, really, really think about it and really try to understand what it really means, you know, effectively to explain it that way. And so are we in a black hole? So I'm not the first person to say it, like I said, but I think that if you do the math, you can narrow down on what kind of black hole we live in. And what's interesting is black holes outside of that 5 to 10 solar masses, they got different physics in their universes.
- [39:09]
A
Different physics?
- [39:10]
B
Yes. A different. Yes. Different cosmology completely. So who, what kind of things are going on in those big black holes or smaller black holes? So every black hole is going to create a universe like ours, just those in that certain mass range. And so I find that really intriguing. It creates a, an infinite sort of possibility of, of types of physics and beings that could occur.
- [39:35]
A
It does. I don't know if you aware of the JADE project from last year, James Webb. Oh, they found that they looked at all the, like the far field galaxies and 2/3 of them are spinning the same way. And it shouldn't work like that.
- [39:50]
B
Right?
- [39:50]
A
Why?
- [39:52]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. Why? So you know, you, you actually, I've been thinking about that actually, and you said something a few minutes ago that could possibly explain it, that the black hole, if there are black holes created within it, it should have some chirality or it will. If it has spin on the outside, then that should translate somehow to the inside.
- [40:16]
A
Yes.
- [40:17]
B
Well, what if our black hole is spinning with a certain angular momentum that's causing the majority of the galaxies in our black hole to spin in a certain way?
- [40:28]
A
That's why I brought it up because there's a lot of these studies that seem to point to your paper.
- [40:32]
B
I'm, I'm excited about it. I really think there's something to it. I mean, I'm not saying that it's, you know, Nobel prize winning kind of stuff, but I think it's something unique and new that we can actually, if we start finding a way to peer into, we can actually get information inside a black hole now. Right. And I find that, I find that intriguing. Now I did something fun. I created a model black hole in IBM's quantum computer, the one called Fez. And then I created a wormhole and I put one end outside the black hole and one end inside the black hole.
- [41:12]
A
Oh, that's a lot of math.
- [41:14]
B
It was hard to write the code, too. And did it work in the computer? Now, I'm not saying I actually built these. They weren't real black holes, but it was a simulation of a black hole in the quantum computer. And, and I could actually send entangled photons from. From within the black hole to the outside. And I could send information from within the black hole.
- [41:34]
A
And they would stay entangled.
- [41:35]
B
And they would stay entangled. Now, now that's just. It's an interesting simulation until I can figure out a way to do more with it. Right. You know, but. But it's a. You think about these things. We don't know how the universe works. We don't know how everything. So if you say you can't do something, like I was going to make this point earlier about when I was talking about the square root of four, Shermer, as always, said you would, that, you know, you can't go faster, speed of light. You can't. These, these things. Oh, and to say that these UFOs in these videos, if they were going at the speed that we're saying they're going, they would, they would make sonic booms and all these. Rip the airport and all. It set the air on fire, all this stuff. Well, that's one solution. But if you understand the physics of warp theory and general relativity, there was a paper written in 1999. The paper is actually called A View from the Bridge because they were trying to see if Captain Kirk could actually get information from inside the warp bubble. And what they found was that information can't penetrate the front or the back of the bubble, that it creates an impenetrable information barrier. And so anything with. We just move around it without interacting with it. So if there's a warp bubble moving through our atmosphere, the atmosphere is going to move out of the way. It's not going to need to make a sonic boom. It's not going to rip the air apart. The air is just going to act like it's not there.
- [42:56]
A
Right. It's almost like a micro universe.
- [42:58]
B
Yeah, that's exactly it. It's a pocket universe, what I call it. And so the question there is, does Shermer not know general relativity at all? I'm sure he's a smart guy. He knows, and I know Avi Loeb does, and they're buddies I mean, so why do they say things like that? Why do they say things like that? Just to say, well, it can't happen. If that was there, it would rip the air part, set the atmosphere on fire. Or what if it was a warp bubble and it was following the laws of physics as we understand them, we
- [43:33]
A
see it happen in water, too.
- [43:34]
B
Yes. Oh, there was a. You know, there was a project that DARPA did back in the 80s called Warp Project. Warp theory or warp drive project. Warp drive. And it was. They basically made a submarine that looked like a narwhal. And the big nose out on the. On the submarine had little pocket. Little bubbles in. I mean, holes in it. And they would put out nitrogen gas and create bubbles. Air bubbles. Little bitty air bubbles that would go around, create a warp bubble of bubbles around the submarine. So. So it would reduce the density of the water.
- [44:07]
A
That's right. The cavitation project. I remember this.
- [44:10]
B
And so it could go faster than a submarine in water could go. It would go faster than the speed of sound and water. Right. Potentially, which is a warp bubble. But a warp in the water in hydrodynamics, not in space time dynamics. But so what? I mean, it's a neat idea. It's the same idea. It's just doing it in a different way. We don't know how to create those little bubbles yet, you know, to do a real warp drive.
- [44:38]
A
Why do you think they keep it from us?
- [44:41]
B
I don't know who they are.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. It always comes down to who they are.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah. And so I, you know, even if we put in the. I don't think it made it. I think they. There were some antibodies that edited out the first report that the UAP task force did back in like 21 or 2. I forget the year we had a page in there that said it's either us in a classified project that for some reason didn't reveal itself to us, which we rated as very low probability because we had access. Right. It's a near peer, China or Russia. But our intelligence network hasn't given us any information that it was. That it's Mother Nature doing something new that we've never seen before, which is possible for some of them, but not for all of them. Right. The ones that look like actual things is unlikely to be ball lightning. Right. And then there's an oligarch or a group of oligarchs that are outside of working outside of the law or outside of any control, which would require a lot of coordination and a lot of resources, which a Lot of them have. Right. Or it was something else. And we didn't even say aliens, angels, demons. We left that alone. We just said it was something else. And that whole list of things got removed from the report. And. Why. Why would you even. Because we were just showing that we were saying there are all these possible solutions. It's like square root of four is two and minus two. Right. That's all we were saying.
- [46:19]
A
Who has the authority to do that?
- [46:22]
B
That's the question. Right.
- [46:23]
A
That's Pentagon. It's got.
- [46:24]
B
Well, so Jay Stratton was a two star admiral equivalent. Civilian Daiso, Defense Intelligence senior leader. Right. Two star equivalent. I was a GS15 equivalent. And we had. So there was another. Another sort of partner that was working for what is now Space Force. It wasn't Space Force then, but. And he was a one star equivalent. So we had some muscle and we had the senior members of the SISSY and HIPC on board. I mean, Rubio was our biggest fan.
- [46:58]
A
Yeah. Those are the committees.
- [46:59]
B
Yeah. And so I don't understand who would have the power over them to keep us from putting certain things in the report.
- [47:11]
A
Well, but there's always. There's an answer to that, like who called you, Marco? Because someone made a call. We just need to trace where those calls end. But we. We can never get there.
- [47:24]
B
Well, you know, Representative Burchett just told me that Tim is a great guy from Knoxville, Tennessee.
- [47:32]
A
He's a hecklefish fan.
- [47:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He. He's a good guy, man. So, so funny. He invited Jay Stratton and I to go to his house and brief him on all this. And so we drove up to Knoxville from Huntsville, Alabama. Jay moved to Huntsville after we started hanging out together. He liked it. But anyway, we drove up to see Congressman Burchett, and he comes out on the front porch and cut off blue jean shorts.
- [48:00]
A
Oh, no. And his Daisy dudes cowboy boots.
- [48:02]
B
Cowboy boots. Right. He's got his firearm on his side and a Tennessee Vols golf shirt. Right. And. And he comes out and he takes us in the house, shows us all of his World War II firearms that his dad had got him or what gotten when he was there, whatever. But anyway, and we briefed him and he said that when you get there, you're there, you think you have all these great intentions or whatever, and you get there and realize that there's they. They. He said, they will not let you do anything. And we were like, well, who is they? And he says, the system. And I don't know if he actually knows if there's a they to the system, I don't think he knows. I don't think he does. I think it's basically everybody says, oh, you can't do that. You can't tell anybody. You can't do this. You can't do that. And I think they just accept it. Right. Our elected officials can't even do what we've elected them to do because of whatever this they or this system is. And that's probably what we call the deep state or administrative state, all these different things that gets in the political realm. And I'm not talking about politics. I'm just talking about in general, humanity, wanting to know what their leaders are doing for them.
- [49:23]
A
Humanity is the problem because whether it's Merchant or somebody else, you get a phone call that says, do you want to know about aliens? You want to get reelected?
- [49:30]
B
Yeah, I suspect that's right. Yeah, I have a feeling that that's exactly right. I mean, I had. I had pushback when. When Jay invited me to be on the UAP task force.
- [49:42]
A
Pushback from.
- [49:44]
B
So my boss was a one star equivalent for the army, so he had been a one star general equivalent. Now, I had done some work for the three star. That was over him before, but in a way that he didn't actually know my name. He just knew that there was somebody under him doing work. Right. But Jay called. Had to actually literally call my boss and say, at the army and say, we need Travis for the interagency task force. It wasn't called UAP Task Force yet.
- [50:14]
A
This is pre Arrow.
- [50:16]
B
Oh, wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [50:17]
A
We.
- [50:17]
B
Jay and I retired, and then Arrow became okay. All right. So we retired because we realized we couldn't get anywhere.
- [50:26]
A
Right.
- [50:27]
B
Right. We kept getting doors shut in our face. So anyway, my boss was like, well, why do you need Travis? You know, why do you need him? And he. He said he's. And so Jay told us. Funny. Jay's exact words to him was, because Travis is the only guy that can understand the physics and knows how to build shit. That's exactly what he told him. Because, you know, I grew up building stuff, and we all watched it on tv, and I. And our goal was to figure out if there was a heritage legacy reverse engineering program and to get into it and see why there was no progress and. Cause here's the thing. I briefed all the way up to the White House. If there is a legacy program, who's doing the work? Because I know all. I don't necessarily know personally all of the physicists and engineers that should be working on. But I know who they are, and I know that they're not because I see what they are doing.
- [51:29]
A
You know that they're not.
- [51:30]
B
Yes, and I see what they are doing. And that's when Dave Grush kind of came along. So let me, Let me. You know, I'm probably getting ahead of you, but.
- [51:41]
A
You are, but it's fun.
- [51:44]
B
So. So Jay and that other person who still didn't want his name out because he just didn't want the publicity. He's retired since, but he just didn't want to get involved. Right. But he. The guy that was in the space group and then. And Jay and myself, and there was one other CIA scientist that was kind of in the top group that would hang out, you know, together afterwards. We called it. Jay called it Whiskey and Cigars because he'd do a virtual meeting, and we'd all meet, like every Friday evening and talk about what we'd done. But. So the space guy, he was. He had Dave Grush on contract. Dave Grush was not a civil servant. He was a contractor. Right. And he said, well, we need somebody that can go and we'll get them to do interviews because we don't have time to do all. Because we had just. Jay and I just got approval from the NASA administrator that we were going to get every living astronaut in a skiff and have them debrief with us. And they were to be told from the administrator to tell us anything they know. Right. And then Covid hit, and we didn't get to do that. But there's a whole nother aspect to that.
- [52:59]
A
Well, who would have been alive then? Just buzz, right?
- [53:02]
B
Well, you have the Apollo. Of the Apollo guys. You had buzz. And then you would get into the space shuttle guys. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so you still had. There were still several of the space shuttle Musgrave's still alive. You know, I don't know if you, John Young, Robert Cribbin are probably still alive. I don't know. I'd have to go look that up.
- [53:28]
A
What about Mark Kelly? Would he have been on your list?
- [53:31]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. We saw every living astronaut. Every astronaut that was alive. We had. We were. We had a plan. We had a schedule, and we were going to get them, fly them. We had budget to fly them to the skiff in D.C. and we were going to meet with them for a week, have them come in and debrief with us. So at the same time, we had. The space guy said, well, I got a Guy on contract already doing some analysis for me. He's pretty good. I want to get him to start interviewing anybody that thinks they know anything about the legacy programs in a skiff. And so that's what Dave Grush started doing. He started interviewing people.
- [54:04]
A
So he wasn't Air Force Intelligence.
- [54:06]
B
No. So he was active duty Air Force for some time in his career, and I think he was in Air Force Intelligence in that timeframe. Right. But I mean, he wasn't high up. I mean, he wasn't like a general or something. He was just, you know, a normal career guy. Right. Well, when he, when he got out of the Air Force, he started doing contractor. He's a physics major. I mean, he. He knows he's. I think he has a. He has. I know he has a bachelor's. He may have a master's in physics. He's. He's a sharp guy. So anyway, and Dave was doing like signals analysis or image analysis or something for the space team. And so we put him to work doing that, and he started getting people telling him just all kinds of stuff. And so we gave him to tell it, you debrief us on it, whatever. And then he got a job offer to go to NGA as a civil servant National Geospatial Agency. And so. But he was still also partially under control from the other leader of the UAP task force. And while I was at NGA as a civil servant, he was asking some of these people the questions, and somebody didn't like it, and they had the inspector general start investigating him. And that's. That kind of brings everybody up to the date of the stories that Dave has told. But what I just wanted to. And I want to be clear about something I think people don't understand, the way he tells it is that to my knowledge, he's never seen anything with his own eyes. That's.
- [55:48]
A
That's what I understand.
- [55:49]
B
And the way he has. And under, you know, discussions with me in a skiff. I've known Dave for a long time. It's. Yeah, this guy told me this, right. And he's the guy that worked on it. He says. And then. So then our goal was get those people to say these things under oath. But we getting them to say it under oath is the hard thing. And, and so I think that's why Dave at least went and said it under oath that, hey, these guys told me these things. And I want people to understand that that's the problem we have. We can't get anyone who's got their hands on it to come forward and say, yeah, I've got it. Here it is. You know, come help us.
- [56:29]
A
Because the whistleblower protection doesn't seem to have any teeth.
- [56:33]
B
I think whistleblower protection in general never has any teeth. Right. I mean, look at the. I forget the guy's name. He was the CIA agent that blew the whistle on torture going on at Guantanamo. He spent like five years in prison.
- [56:48]
A
Yep.
- [56:49]
B
I don't think he got the whistleblower protection he was wanting.
- [56:52]
A
No.
- [56:53]
B
So there's a lot of that, you know, and so I think they're scared to death.
- [56:58]
A
But you believe that there's a legacy program?
- [57:02]
B
Excuse me? Yeah. You know, is there a legacy program?
- [57:07]
A
Because I've had a few guys in here who would know, and they all say no, but I don't know.
- [57:12]
B
Well, I used to think no until I started really being a part of the community. You know, I didn't believe that, Rob. I believe that up until probably I went to Skinwalker Ranch, that Roswell was most likely a classified program that went awry. And they want to start digging into it and looking at it from internal classifications and reading all the documentation and all that. And now the fact that this fourth tranche of emails and things have been released from the government and they show clearly that Twining actually said that they were a phenomena. I'm convinced that something was going on.
- [57:59]
A
He said it. For one day.
- [58:00]
B
Yeah, for one day.
- [58:02]
A
For one day he said it.
- [58:03]
B
Well, so when I was doing the Tesla files, that's another interesting thing. We found a document, through a Freedom of Information act request that Franklin Roosevelt had written a letter directly to Nikola Tesla in 1942 before he died, asking Nikola Tesla how his secret war effort was going.
- [58:26]
A
You found that document?
- [58:27]
B
Yes, and we released it on the Tesla files, and we had a copy of that document from the FOIA request. How was his secret war effort going? And everybody thought he was just on top of the Hotel New Yorker playing with pigeons.
- [58:42]
A
With pigeons? No. So, I mean, there's that conspiracy theory that I believe is when he died, 60 boxes get taken out of room 3327 and only 40 come back.
- [58:52]
B
It was more than that.
- [58:52]
A
More than that. And that's John Trump.
- [58:54]
B
Yeah, it was. It was Donald Trump's uncle.
- [58:58]
A
Yep.
- [58:59]
B
Right. And it's really interesting. He was in charge. He was. So it was Trump, which is also. He's one of the guys that shows up in the MJ12 conspiracy theories. Right. But. So here's the thing. We went to the Hotel New Yorker.
- [59:15]
A
You went, you went there? Yeah, I got to watch the show
- [59:17]
B
to investigate what was going on there. And I've got, had this, the building engineer come talk to me about the design of the building, show me all the infrastructure. It was built back in the. So Tesla quit being public in 1927. You know, when they started designing the Hotel New Yorker. When 1927. Go figure. Go figure, right. And so we, we go and we look and they had three ginormous generators, the biggest that existed, put in the basement of that building to power the building.
- [59:54]
A
I read the same thing, but I
- [59:56]
B
saw them with my own eyes. You did? Yes. The generators, One of the generators would have been enough to power all of New York at the time.
- [60:04]
A
Right.
- [60:04]
B
And they had three of them. And then I was, I was running the stairwell during a break, just as my workout as a 40 story building, I'm like, man, it's gonna be a hell of a workout.
- [60:18]
A
Right.
- [60:19]
B
And I get up to the 40th floor and it keeps going. So I go up a floor and I get to a welded shut door. Welded shut now. And I go back down the next morning and talk to the engineer. So what's up on the 41st floor? Nothing on the 41st floor. Well, there's a door up there that's welded shut. He's, he said, show me. So we took elevator and walked over there. And I've been the engineer for this building for a decade, I've never realized this door was here. And said, well, how do we get to the other side of it? We went and found blueprints that were older and they showed there was something there and there was a corridor and to get in there we found there was a switchboard up there on the 41st floor that you know, like old school where there's ladies would be there putting plastic plugging. In the movies you always see them plugging in wires to make phone calls. There was a switchboard and it was about this far from the main wall that you could barely squeeze behind and get through. And when you get on the other side, there was a laboratory, no shit. On the 41st floor. And there was a filing cabinet in there that had blueprints from the early 1900s in it. And we found, and I got to looking around the room and there was a metal pipe about that big around. And we went to every floor and traced it. It went all the way down into the sub basement into the earth. And in the Wardenclyffe tower that Tesla built, they drove steel pipes into the ground Deep. And he called them Earth Grippers.
- [61:48]
A
Yep.
- [61:48]
B
Right. And when I started looking, there was a certain height that Tesla had calculated in some of his notes, but the building was about 50ft short of that height. And we go up on the very top of the building, there's like an overlook and there's a pole, kind of like a flag pole on top. And I said, what's there? Oh, he said, there used to be
- [62:09]
A
a ball up there, just like Wardenclyffe.
- [62:12]
B
Just like on Wardenclyffe. And so. And this was. And he was there in 1942 when he died. And there was that memo that said, how is your secret war effort going? From Roosevelt himself. So what was he doing at the Hotel New Yorker? I think it was a system to either collect energy or to detect energy. And it may have been a means of over the horizon communications to our navy.
- [62:43]
A
We know he was working on all that stuff.
- [62:45]
B
Yeah. And could it have been something else? He talked about that. We did find that there was a number of that. We found a memo from. I forget who. Who it was. It was one of the generals at the time of having all of the boxes from the Office of Foreign Properties.
- [63:07]
A
Alien property.
- [63:08]
B
Alien Properties, Yes, Alien Properties. It's been a while. Yeah, it was like 2016, I think, when I did this. So the Office of Alien Properties that pertain to death. Tesla's death ray to be sent to Wright Pat Field.
- [63:21]
A
That's right, right.
- [63:22]
B
Field at the time. But, but, but we found that memo. It says that where Blue Book was
- [63:26]
A
think spun up at that time and Wright Pat, wasn't it?
- [63:28]
B
Well, that would have been a little before Blue Book because that was in the 40s and Blue Book would have been in the late 50s.
- [63:35]
A
Right.
- [63:36]
B
So I mean they would have been. Had the, had the legacy of it.
- [63:39]
A
Certainly something was there.
- [63:41]
B
Yeah. Well. And so all of this stuff we see now from investigating that we don't know what our history is, we don't know what's happened, and we don't have anyone who's documented it. And it's been compartmentalized in a way that nobody will ever know.
- [63:57]
A
So I think alien property is supposed to have a chain into custody with all that stuff. Yeah, well, the alien just means foreigner.
- [64:02]
B
Yeah.
- [64:03]
A
Yeah.
- [64:04]
B
The reason why was because his next of kin was a Serbian and his nephew. Yeah. And so they, his nephew said, where's
- [64:11]
A
the rest of the stuff?
- [64:12]
B
So. So we went to Serbia.
- [64:14]
A
You did?
- [64:15]
B
Yes, to the Tesla Institute, whatever it's called.
- [64:20]
A
It's still there.
- [64:21]
B
And we had permission from the State Department had worked it for us to get to see Tesla's notes that they have in the vault there. And because I was wanting to see, I was going to try and rebuild one of his experiments of the death ray, honestly, and transmission of power. And they bring out this book. They got the white gloves on and they open up the vault and they're wearing the bunny suit. And they come out and they set it down and said, so this is the first page. And they turned over one page and they said, so you can see these are Tesla's documents. And I could see through the paper that the drawing on the next page was the drawing I really needed to see. And I said, well, can you turn the page? And the curator, basically like the Hawass of Serbia, he comes in.
- [65:08]
A
No, no.
- [65:09]
B
And I said, why? We, why not? And he said, he said, you don't have a research visa. You, you're here on a, I don't know, a work visa or something. I forget what our visas were. And our, and our producer came around. What we, we have permission. We're supposed to. We, the State Department worked all this out. What are you talking about? You don't have research visa. You can't. And they, and they, and they literally ran us out of the museum at that point when we want, when he saw that I was wanting to look at that next, Next document.
- [65:37]
A
Did you call the embassy and said, I need a research visa?
- [65:40]
B
We, we did everything like that. And they would never, the Serbian museum there would never let us come back in to see the Tesla files.
- [65:47]
A
No, they wouldn't.
- [65:48]
B
How about that?
- [65:49]
A
I believe it.
- [65:50]
B
And so that's the kind of stuff. Who told him that? Who did? Why did they not want me to see, you know, 100 year old document, almost right. 70s or whatever it was old. So why would they not want me to see? That's so bizarre to me. And so that kind of crap that I've seen over and over throughout my career now, and especially since I was on the UAP task force that leads me to think there is a heritage program or a legacy program. But I think it's so disjointed and disconnected, we don't know who's in charge of it. We don't know where the information is the documents are. And it may not even be in the government. I think it is. I don't think. I think it's likely. Yeah. You know, Spielberg may have got it partly right with how he handled it in his new movie. Right. You know, there was some Like Lockheed Martin type or Northrop Grumman or whatever. I'm not going to say I've heard it was one of those.
- [66:47]
A
I mean we heard Hal say in Age of Disclosure that they would just send that stuff to the contractors because FOIA can't penetrate.
- [66:54]
B
Yeah, well, so now here is the, the illegal part that, that we've never. Having been a civil servant for 28 years and having to do federal acquisition regulation contracts and stuff, I'm very aware of what's legal illegal here. I'm not a lawyer, I mean, but I'm saying I know what I would have gotten in trouble for.
- [67:16]
A
Sure.
- [67:19]
B
So what happens? Let's just do a hypothetical that some government team recovers an alien artifact. They release a call for proposals to people who have the right clearances because they're classified proposals. Right calls and say, okay, propose for this and they award somebody, some contractor, contractor X a contract to work on this as soon as they deliver the device or whatever artifact as government furnished equipment, gfe. In the contract it'll say that this is gfe. Then it's in the hands, they're the curators of it, but it's still the government's property. At that point, the government cancels the contract and says we're going to abandon in place. And this is an official legal term used in the federal acquisition regulations. The government can abandon in place anything that they've left at a contractor facility and the contractor can then do anything they want to with it. They can throw it in the dumpster if they want, they can give it to their grandma, it doesn't matter, it's theirs. The government says, I don't want to do this anymore.
- [68:30]
A
This is how it works.
- [68:31]
B
And it's legal to abandon in place. But then suddenly that same contractor X bids on, oh, let's say F22 contract or a F35 contract or a future combat systems contract and they get a $70 billion contract for 10 years. Then this guy who is the government employee retires and guess what? He suddenly got a job with seven figures working for one of these contractors.
- [69:02]
A
Yep.
- [69:03]
B
Now that's what the whistleblowers told us. And that scenario we've seen happen without being alien stuff. We've just seen it.
- [69:11]
A
We all see it.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah. And so I'm convinced that that has happened since the 40s. I'm convinced of it. I think Howard Hughes even said basically that that was what was happening.
- [69:24]
A
He did. He talked about anti gravity ships and stuff.
- [69:28]
B
Yeah. So, man, I don't know. Is there A legacy program. I can't prove it, but I've seen so many doors slammed in my face or had so many people tell me not to look at that or talk about that or, you know, your career will be ended if you people think you're nut those kind of things. Why? What's driving them and what's driving them to push so hard? I mean, since I've been on at skinwalker, some of the antibody press has really come. Like this guy talking about my alleged education, for example. Some people read that and probably believe that I made it up. And all he would have had to done was do his homework.
- [70:14]
A
Yeah, that's Operation Mockingbird still in action.
- [70:16]
B
That's exactly it.
- [70:17]
A
You got it.
- [70:19]
B
Who is behind that? That is the big thing that bothers me the most because I spent my life since I was 17 years old as a civil servant serving the country that I believe in. And then I get to this point and I see that there's something else going on that we're not in control of what we think we're in control of.
- [70:40]
A
Well, let's take a quick break. We'll talk more about that later. But when we come back, I want to talk a little bit of quantum mechanics, if you don't mind.
- [70:47]
B
I can always talk about quantum mechanics.
- [70:48]
A
Be right back.
- [70:50]
B
Okay.
- [70:51]
A
So you worked at US Army Space and Missile Defense Command, principal scientists of Quantum Entanglement and Space Technologies Lab. What does the army want to do? What's the army messing around with quantum mechanics for?
- [71:04]
B
Well, many reasons. One is, are there sensors that would use new methods of quantum physics that would give you more information on battle assessment, battlefield awareness and so on. The other would be communications, if you can do quantum entanglement, encrypted communications. And what I was specifically working on as my main project at the time was to create a satellite experiment that would use quantum encrypted communications so that no one could eavesdrop or spoof or jam the comms to the battle groups on the ground.
- [71:46]
A
Didn't China just do this?
- [71:48]
B
You're thinking of the. It's spelled misha, so I think they pronounce it something like mosa or something like that. I don't understand Chinese spelling and pronunciations. But you're talking about that experiment where. Yes, they did what's called a QKD Quantum Key Distribution Experiment where they flew a satellite in 2016, 2017 timeframe, and they encrypted a video transmission with their quantum key and did it from one point on one part of the globe to another part, which was really impressive and exciting. There are a lot of people who tried to debunk it and say that they didn't really achieve it, But I was on one of the teams to look at what they did, and as far as I could tell, it was functional. And it's really interesting. Not tooting my own horn. Go ahead. But myself and one of my first mentors, Dr. Francisco J. D'. Orte. Frank D'. Orte. He and I wrote a paper in 2015 that laser focused World nominated as one of the top 10 papers of the year. And we show. We showed that quantum communications would be the key for encrypted satellite communications. And then within a year, the Chinese did it. And so at least we thought of it.
- [73:03]
A
But they did it.
- [73:04]
B
But they went and did it. So. But my. My lab was a hybrid lab between University of Alabama Huntsville and the Army Space and Missile Defense Command to get smart young folks in there working on it, hands on, building the experiment, building the space hardware. And we'd already flown one project on the International space station for 28 months. And our second mission was to fly the quantum communications package. And we got the first prototype built. And then politics changed within the army, and some group said, well, we're the only group in the army that's supposed to be doing that. So they pulled our funding and put it there, and we sort of limped along. But I also. That was about the time that I got pulled into the UAP task force. And so my focus was sort of reoriented.
- [74:02]
A
I understand how quantum encryption would work, but why would entanglement be necessary?
- [74:08]
B
So that way you can, over large distances, create your key on both ends.
- [74:17]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [74:19]
B
So you have your entangled photons, right, Flipping up or down. And if you measure over here, whatever it is, you know what the other one is supposed to be. And so what happens is this person gets a key, entangles it, sends it over to the other person, and then they send through a regular comms channel. I use this measurement tool to measure it. And so then they take that measurement tool and do some adjustment to it, measure. And whatever they get, then it tells them what their key was. And so if they don't have both of those, the actual entangled piece and the classical comm piece, then you can't get the key. You can't open the door. And so it's a. It's perfect encryption, and it's not breakable. Well, there are some quantum hacks that have been discovered since, but it's not. I don't think it's really been done in application.
- [75:12]
A
Right.
- [75:12]
B
It's theoretically possible in theory.
- [75:14]
A
You should be able to break it, I guess, instantly. Right.
- [75:17]
B
Well, well, but if you do break it, the other guy knows that you.
- [75:19]
A
That's right.
- [75:20]
B
So if anybody eavesdrops on you, you know, that you've been eavesdropped on, and so that's useful as well, right?
- [75:26]
A
Yeah.
- [75:27]
B
And so that's what we were working on. And it was. It was a exciting project. It was hard. I mean, it's one of those things that, you know, nobody done yet. So, I mean, other than the Chinese, but nobody had done it in this country yet. And the problem was, the problem with this country is for the research funds. You got so many people fighting and stabbing each other in the back over getting something done that we're our own worst enemy in that regard. Instead of saying, oh, these guys have done great work, we should go look, see what they've done, and maybe we can get funding to do something similar or whatever, instead of, we better kill them and get their funding. That's how it works in this country. I mean, it really does. And our scientific community, publication community, it's all a big Spanish Inquisition. It's a mess.
- [76:14]
A
Were you studying quantum field theory and then decided to just write the textbook yourself?
- [76:20]
B
That's. That is exactly what I did.
- [76:22]
A
What, What. What was wrong with. With the syllabus that you had to write your own textbook as a student?
- [76:28]
B
Well, so what happened was I noticed that quantum field theory was on the catalog for the university Alabama Huntsville, Physics department, but it was never offered. I went to the dean and said, why is it not offered? You know, I've been studying. I'd want to take an official course in it. And he said, well, we don't have anybody that wants to teach it. He said, I could, but I don't have time. And I said, well, tell you what, let me see if I can create a syllabus for you and write the course. And so I started putting the coursework together. I got several other textbooks looking at them like they read like stereo instructions, you know, instead of trying to explain it in a way that a student can understand it. And so to teach myself, you know, quantum field theory, I had. I mean, I had to learn it well enough that I could teach it to somebody else. Right. Explain it to the third grader, so to speak.
- [77:22]
A
Right.
- [77:22]
B
Which is. That's a hard one to do, by the way. Yes, it is.
- [77:25]
A
Who did you study to put that together.
- [77:29]
B
So there are, there's several books. The two main sets of books that I used were a book by Klauber and then one by Lancaster and Blundell. There was something like Quantum Physics for gifted amateur and one student friendly Quantum Field theory or something like that. And then there was the standard textbooks that people have used. And I looked at what I found MIT coursework online and just everywhere I could find information, I'd read everything about this particular piece and be like, I don't understand what they were telling me there. This one I kind of understand. I don't. Then I figure out after you know, putting it all together, a way to understand it. And so I said, well, I kind of done all this work, it might as well be a book. And so I contacted the publisher who published my rocket science book. And they said, we would love to have a quantum field theory book. First graduate course in that. Yeah, we'd love to do that. And so I spent the next year putting that book together.
- [78:28]
A
Did anyone take your course?
- [78:30]
B
Well, I haven't taught it.
- [78:31]
A
Okay.
- [78:32]
B
The book just came out, you know, six months ago.
- [78:34]
A
Oh, it did?
- [78:35]
B
Yeah.
- [78:35]
A
Okay.
- [78:36]
B
So I just finished it not, you know, not long ago. And I've already found a couple of errors in it, so I'll have to do a, an updated edition or something to fix it. But that's usually what happens, you know, with textbooks. You teach a class in it and the students find where you made a mistake.
- [78:48]
A
Sure.
- [78:48]
B
And so I'm hoping that somebody adopts it and they'll get notes from professors. Well, there's error here. There's, you know, that's happened with my rocket science book too.
- [78:57]
A
So, yeah, I get emails from fans and scientists saying all the things I got wrong.
- [79:01]
B
I heard, I've heard about that.
- [79:04]
A
Were you working on decoherence when you were in the lab? So,
- [79:11]
B
a little bit. One of the things that we were really interested in that I me specifically was how. How do we know or how does it know to decohere? What is the thing that triggers what is called the collapse of the wave function in quantum physics. And there are a lot of people that debate it. People still think that or want to argue with you that no, it's just statistics. And there never was this live and dead cat in the box. But we've done experiments that suggest that it is a superposition of two states at once. The cat's alive and dead in the box at the same time. But for how long? So you know, Penrose, Roger Penrose.
- [79:53]
A
This is what I was getting at
- [79:54]
B
has a theory called quantum gravity. And it's not really tying gravity to quantum physics, it's just what he called it. That based on how much mass an object has is how long it can stay in this superposition of unknown states. Right. Like the cat's alive and dead. But since the cat is so heavy, it's like, you know, billionths of a second or something, a nanosecond or even less, that it could be in flux. But an electron, for example, whose mass is tiny, like 10 to the minus 31 kg or something, that's so small you can't even imagine, so many zeros, you know, that it can stay in that flux for almost forever unless something interacts with it. And so where is the middle ground where there are big things, big enough things that you can watch and see it happen. And I think there were some experiments done with micron size, you know, millionth of a meter sized nanotubes. Like carbon filaments. Yep. Like the size of a human hair, something like that, under certain field conditions. And they've been able to see it perform at both states at once. Meaning it's that the cat is alive and dead in the box. It's just a little bitty box.
- [81:04]
A
Sure.
- [81:05]
B
Yeah. And a very cooperative cat, I've always said. I don't know how Schrodinger was going to get that cat in the box in the first place. Now, a cat will jump into a box if you leave it there open. Right. But you can't put it in there. Cats do what they want to do, so.
- [81:20]
A
So Tegmark says that decoherence is almost instant in warm wet environment.
- [81:25]
B
Yeah.
- [81:26]
A
Not really true, is it though?
- [81:27]
B
Well, that's the warm, squishy brain idea. So what you're getting at is quantum consciousness, right? And Penrose, even Hammerhole.
- [81:35]
A
I'm thinking about bird's eyes and quantum tunneling through olfactory senses even before we get to consciousness. Well,
- [81:43]
B
one of the things that led me down this path was my first child was born in 2004. And when my wife was pregnant, I remember watching all these videos about, well, at this stage, the baby grows, this happens and this happens. And I go, how the hell do they know? Why does it do that? Nobody knows why these things are happening. They just watched them so long. They say this is what usually happens. It's just observation, it's not knowledge. And what's triggering these things to happen and how does it know? And the things happen in ways that seem faster than they should be able to Happen.
- [82:22]
A
They still don't really know?
- [82:23]
B
No. They don't have any idea? No. And so now I got to think. Well, if you get a splinter in your finger, the immune response happens immediately. And it's much faster than the ion channel to travel from your arm up to your brain and back down your brain and back to say, send stuff there. Right. So could it be through a quantum connection, through an interaction? And that's what led me to start studying Penrose and Hameroff's orchestrated objective reduction and the warm squishy brain thing. Right. And you know, for, you know, people who haven't really paid attention to that, the idea is that there are these proteins in your brain and there's more of these proteins in your brain than there are grains of sand on the beach or stars in the universe.
- [83:09]
A
Tryptophan.
- [83:10]
B
No, they're called tubulins.
- [83:11]
A
Oh, the microtubes.
- [83:12]
B
Yeah.
- [83:13]
A
Okay.
- [83:13]
B
And the protein, the tubulin protein.
- [83:16]
A
Tryptophan, the amino acid in those.
- [83:18]
B
Yeah.
- [83:18]
A
Okay, go ahead.
- [83:19]
B
So Penrose and Amaroff hypothesize that these tubulins can trap an electronic. Like the cat in the box, Right. And so that protein becomes what's called a qubit, a quantum processor. And that's what we're building right now at Google, at IBM. You know, these quantum qubit processors and where the programs that we've built quantum computers, physically there are tens to hundreds of qubit processors. There are like 10 to the 20 or so of them in your brain. And so does it matter if they decohere quickly? This is where Tegmark didn't pay attention to engineering.
- [84:04]
A
Right.
- [84:05]
B
So even if they do decohere so quickly, there's 10 to the 20 something of them.
- [84:11]
A
That's a good point.
- [84:12]
B
And they could be decohering, but they could be reinforced by the next one not being decohered yet and so on.
- [84:17]
A
Tryptophan does reinforce these.
- [84:20]
B
Well, and there's other. So here's the thought about that. Is there architecture in your brain to do error reduction? That's why you would, you know what, when you do error reduction in compute and computing processing, you add extra processors, right? Guess What? There are 10 to the 20 something of these processors in your brain. And so I believe that that's, that your brain is a quantum computer. Whether it was organically grown, designed by, you know, the Anunnaki or whatever you want, I don't care. But that's what's happening. And it led me to write a book in the early 2000s called the science behind the Secret. And I was watching, my wife and I were watching these. It's when the Secret came out, it was all popular. People were on Oprah talking about it.
- [85:10]
A
We all read it.
- [85:10]
B
Yeah, we all read it. And they started talking about, well, it's like electromagnetism. And I'm like, well that's not right. Like electromagnetism. Because in magnets and electricity, like things repel each other. And you're saying like things stay. I said the only thing that does that I know of is quantum physics. Because in quantum, quantum wave functions will have constructive interference if the wave functions are similar and they'll be destructive if they're dissimilar. So like things would stay and unlike things would go away. And that started leading me to think, well, what they're saying in the Secret isn't they're not physicists, they're like self help people, philosophers, whatever. They don't understand what they're saying, but they're saying it. Right.
- [85:51]
A
Right.
- [85:52]
B
And so I started looking at the quantum physics of the human brain and how the universe works. And it led me down this path of looking into ancient texts, even more so than just for things like from ancient astronaut hypothesis. Right. More than deeper than Van Daniken, more of the William Henry sort of direction.
- [86:12]
A
Sure.
- [86:14]
B
And it led me into really wanting to understand quantum physics at a level of, of is there an observer effect that are we influencing every experiment, everything that happens? And, and here's the thing that gets me is how do I have dreams of people I don't know in detail?
- [86:36]
A
We all do.
- [86:37]
B
Yeah.
- [86:38]
A
So, and, but you know them in the dream.
- [86:40]
B
Yes. And I know these environments in the dream that I've never been to. Am I that good at making up stuff or is my brain in idle mode and the noise floor is brought down because all my other systems are shut down and I'm connecting like a quantum transceiver to other quantum transmissions that are happening. And I'm decoding it and I'm like playing that game, I'm part of that reality for a minute. And that leads me down the path that because we don't understand dreams, because we don't understand things like dmt, because we don't understand that when people are hallucinating that their brain function actually goes into a coma like state instead of hyperactive, that leads me to think that we're doing something more on the lines of detecting quantum information. Because you got to, it's very sensitive to noise. Right. And so if you brought the noise down, then you're Seeing things that aren't usually there, or detecting things that aren't usually there, or having experiences you don't usually experience. It suggests to me that sounds like quantum physics.
- [87:53]
A
Well, you brought up dmt. So we've got microtubules that are loaded with tryptophan which turns into tryptamine, add two methyl groups and now you've got DMT and it's. Your brain is full of these amino acids. It's just. Can't be an accident.
- [88:07]
B
No, it can't be an accident. It can't. That. That sounds like it's the best video game system ever created, right?
- [88:14]
A
Yep.
- [88:15]
B
I mean it's better than neuralink.
- [88:17]
A
You ever do dmt?
- [88:18]
B
No, I don't. I've had a security clearance since I was 17.
- [88:23]
A
Oh yeah.
- [88:23]
B
And been susceptible to drug tests and lie detector polygraphs for a very long time. And so the only advice that I have is occasional alcohol.
- [88:35]
A
Fair enough, I broke my clearance. But it's a weird world when you go into the DMT world because it feels so real.
- [88:42]
B
I've had a lot of. So as you can imagine doing this kind of thing, there are cameramen and sound guys and people who've been in the entertainment industry and they don't have such rules and regulations and they tell me many stories and what's really interesting to me is how the ayahuasca and the DMT stories, they all say the same thing. They see the same creatures, they have the same experience. Why?
- [89:10]
A
I don't know. I've seen the Mantis being really, I don't know why.
- [89:13]
B
And I don't think it's because you were front loaded.
- [89:15]
A
Nope. It didn't feel like.
- [89:18]
B
Seems to me more like, like that looking from your peripheral vision to see things that you can't normally see.
- [89:25]
A
That's a good segue into skinwalker because we have to talk about it. When you got to the ranch, you were there to debunk it, weren't you?
- [89:31]
B
Yeah, man. When I got there I knew it was going to be like Scooby Doo, man. I was going to get there and it's Old Man Withers, you know, and we had got away with it. Weren't for these meddling kids but.
- [89:43]
A
You find Withers yet?
- [89:45]
B
No, no, I've been there for eight years and have yet to find Old Man Withers. In fact, I'm more more confused today than I was before I went. You know, after eight years.
- [89:55]
A
What was that first experiment, that first reading? Well, wait a minute.
- [89:58]
B
So I mean I'd literally been there. 30 minutes to an hour.
- [90:02]
A
That's it.
- [90:03]
B
Yeah. My first time to visit. Brandon Fugal, the owner, flew me in on his helicopter. We landed at the helipad, we got out and had lunch and then walked up to the top of the mesa where they just put out a new sensor. They were going to show me the sensor and I carried a spectrum analyzer with me as we went. And the other scientist there had one with him, Eric Bard. And we were there up on top of the mesa. We had just got there and then suddenly my spectrum analyzer pegged out in the microwaves. And I mean pegged out like not popping popcorn on the inside, but if you were popping popcorn and held your microwave detector right by the door, that's how much microwaves I was detecting coming from everywhere.
- [90:48]
A
Wow. And what was the frequency?
- [90:49]
B
It was around 1.6 gigahertz. And, and that's, you know, that's right where GPS is. That's where space to ground is 1575
- [90:58]
A
and iridium is 161. Yeah, that's a busy frequency.
- [91:01]
B
That is a very big. It's all space to ground, ground space kind of stuff.
- [91:05]
A
And it was pegged.
- [91:05]
B
Pegged. And it was coming out of the ground. What is it? I don't know. I mean, I looked for it, I was like, I was like scratching my head, running around crazy like, you know, a chicken with his head cut off, not, not understanding what's going on. I was literally like a cockroach in a microwave running around. Yeah, I was running like, trying to figure out what was going on.
- [91:25]
A
Well, you drilled, you dug. What did you. What's down there?
- [91:28]
B
Don't know. We. So we, we drilled in a spot where ground penetrating radar told us there was some big anomaly in there. And when we, we hit something and we put pressure against it, 8,000 pounds of pressure against it for like minutes, many minutes. And you'd think a drill bit would have got hot, didn't it? Cooled off, which is odd. The friction would have been enormous. Unless it were frictionless.
- [91:54]
A
Odd. Impossible.
- [91:56]
B
Impossible. Right, right. Unless it were frictionless or something. But what we found in the spoils pile when we pulled. Pulled the drill bit out were these pieces of metallic fragments. And they were ceramic like. And when we went and had them analyzed, they had been centered and built in a blast furnace in a way that the experts in the material in the metallurgy lab said were like tiles on the space shuttle that are used for reentry or there's on starship now. Right. They use the same kind of tiles. It's not the exact chemical makeup, but were built or manufactured in the same way. So there's something manufactured inside this mesa. And this was 377ft in and 78, 75ft, I think down.
- [92:50]
A
Was this an alloy?
- [92:52]
B
It's a mixture. It was a compound of something.
- [92:53]
A
It was a compound. So it was made.
- [92:55]
B
It was made, yes.
- [92:57]
A
What were the metals? What were the components?
- [92:58]
B
Well, so it had a little bit of aluminum in it. What's really interesting is it had a mixture of 50% aluminum and 50% iron in some of the metal fragments, which we don't do that. We don't mix 5050 aluminum and iron.
- [93:12]
A
No.
- [93:12]
B
Why? What is. What is that? Where'd that come from? And then the ceramic, like, fragments had all sorts of materials in it. Like there were some thorium. There was a. There was.
- [93:23]
A
So that's radioactive.
- [93:25]
B
Yeah. It was very low level. It was very, very, very low level. It was. What else was in it? There was, of course, there was a lot of carbon. There was a little bit of aluminum. It was almost like aluminum cutting blades. It was almost that kind of material. I originally said that looks kind of like a brake pad, you know.
- [93:46]
A
Right.
- [93:46]
B
I thought, somebody's buried a car down in there. Right. But it wasn't exactly a brake pad. Right. It was more like. It was hard on the outside and more fragile on the inside. And we took it and put it in an electron microscope at University, Utah Valley University, in the physics department there. And when we hit it with electron beams, it would open up. And we turned electron beams off. It would close back up in exactly the same configuration. It did it every time.
- [94:12]
A
Like, like self healing metal.
- [94:14]
B
Well, that's what we thought it was. We thought we were blowing holes in it at first and it was. And it was healing itself, but it. It appeared to be more like an umbrella that it was opening and closing or a pom pom. When you put it in a static electric field, how it. Or your hair will stand up and then it will go back down. It seemed more like that, but we're still doing a lot more experimentation on that to figure that out. And some of the metal fragments we found were in layers. It had the iron and aluminum mixture as the middle, the oreo part and then the cookie part was. On one side was almost pure tellurium, and the other side was almost pure europium. And that's really similar to how we build solar panels. And that's really odd also, you know, how did that get Inside this mesa, you know, 30 something. The maximum, the, the maximum height or the closest to the surface that our holes got to was 38ft down. But the materials we believe came out around 78ft, 75ft down and 370 something feet in.
- [95:18]
A
How big is this object according to the GPR?
- [95:22]
B
Well, it's like 20 meters wide and it could be as much as 50 meters. It's like a cigar shape.
- [95:31]
A
It's cigar shaped?
- [95:32]
B
Yeah. Tell you what it looks. And there's smaller pieces all around it. It literally looks like an airplane crash debris field. It literally looks like something crashed into the mesa and there's pieces spread out in there. I mean, and here's the most bizarre thing. We were looking at the material, the metal fragment. And from the elemental analysis of it the night we found it, we're using equipment we had on the ranch. And I said, well, it's not a meteor fragment. And the Eric bard said, well, the only thing it's missing to be a meteor would be to have some nickel in it. The next morning, oh no. The archaeologist pulled out of the same spot. 370 something feet in, 70 something feet down. A 1964 nickel.
- [96:26]
A
What is going on in that?
- [96:27]
B
How can a 1964 nickel get inside the mesa?
- [96:30]
A
It can't.
- [96:30]
B
Well, so we went. So that's it freaked me out. Right. Our archaeologist said, well that means there was a dig here. So what do you mean? He said, oh, it's standard protocol. Archaeologists are trained that when you finish a dig, you drop a coin from that year in the dig so future archaeologists will know there was a dig here. And he said, I'll bet you anything there was a dig here in 1964. So I went and got, me and the other guys, we went and got every publicly available aerial photograph of the property all the way from 1935. And what's interesting is from 1963 to 1968, the 63 is the last one and then 69 is the next one. There are no images from 64 to 68 that are available publicly. None. Zero.
- [97:17]
A
I don't like it, man.
- [97:19]
B
None. Can't be. And so it's really bizarre that something happened there and it's been, it's been covered. And we wonder. There's this mythos of people say bad things happen to you if you dig on skinwalker ranch. Makes me wonder if it was more of a non disclosure agreement saying bad things will happen to you if you dig on skinwalker ranch.
- [97:42]
A
It sounds like it. I mean we were talking earlier I said, I don't really watch the show because I thought it was like another Oak island thing. And you're like, no, man, it's all real, what we're doing there.
- [97:50]
B
Yeah.
- [97:51]
A
What did you find on the ranch that. That compelled you to go to Washington and get in the skiff?
- [97:58]
B
Yeah. So. Well, that first day when I started detecting these microwaves, they were, they were at levels that would be in violation of FCC regulations, right?
- [98:09]
A
Oh, I guess you could jam the satellites.
- [98:11]
B
Yes.
- [98:13]
A
Oh. So that.
- [98:14]
B
And I was like, this is. Somebody's doing something nefarious is what I thought. I thought it was Russians. Is it Chinese? Is it some kid doing something stupid? But somebody.
- [98:22]
A
The battlefield disruption, if you could do that.
- [98:23]
B
Oh, Lord. Yeah. And none of our GPS stuff would work, right? So I'm thinking, oh, somebody's jamming gps
- [98:29]
A
and why no guide, no ordinance.
- [98:31]
B
Well, think about airplanes landing at an airport, right? It really was kind of freaking me out. So I went to my. I had a security clearance, you know, my day job was still with the Army. And I went and told our security guys, I said, well, I don't know what to do with that. Let me see. Call around, see who you need to talk to. And they kept handing me off up the food chain. And at the same time, one of our other guys that was there with me that day, one of the scientists on the team, he had contacted some contacts and they kept doing the same, going up and trying to figure. And eventually we got handed off to, well, you need to have a meeting with these people in the Pentagon. And so. All right, so I flew up to the Pentagon and briefed them on all the data. We were going to skiff and these two guys come in and I noticed that one of them had a copy of my Alien Invasion book, which is a serious book I wrote in 2003 with one of my mentors in the intelligence community, Dr. Bob Bone. We were at a three letter organization meeting, and this is a serious book called Alien Invasion. Yes, it's a textbook on how we would defend the planet and what we should be doing to prepare. So, yeah, we were in. Yeah, we were in this meeting two years after 9, 11, we're in deep in Operation Anaconda. All that stuff's going on. And so this is a top secret meeting on how to come up with clever ways to understand asymmetric warfare and all this stuff. Right. You know, we were on the high side, of course, the, the Iraqis and the Afghanis and all those were on the low side. So we're we're in this meeting and this three star general makes this comment like, well, we need to put ourselves in our enemy's shoes and walk a mile in them so we can understand how to think like them. And I laughed. And, and at this time I was. You laughed out loud? Out loud, yes. Yeah. At this time I was like a GS14 equivalent. And, and this was a three star. And, and, and he kind of harrumphed, you know, and my boss, my mentor just, he said, he's like, oh what's, I know what's coming now, but our boss was a, a one star equivalent in the three letter organization. And, and he kind of looked at me like, I don't know if you should say anything, but you have something to say. I said, well sir, our poor people have xboxes and, and two TVs and a car in the driveway and, and they have $100 shoes. It's unlikely that they'll ever be able to understand these, these people that we're fighting because they have a completely different world they live in. The only way Americans would ever be on the low side of asymmetric war was if we were invaded by aliens. I was doing a typical Southern thing, explaining by exaggeration. Well, the general just kind of rolled his eyes and moved on. So after the meeting, or at a break, in the meeting, we're in the, in a break room and I'm getting a soft drink or whatever and the three letter boss comes up to me, three letter organization boss comes up to me and says, what would we do if we were invaded by aliens?
- [101:24]
A
That's my next question.
- [101:26]
B
And I said, we'd probably die. Oh no. And he said, well, do we have a plan? And I'd say, well, I think you would know more about that. He said, well, why don't you two look. And he's talked to me and my mentor and said, why don't you two look and see what you can come up with. And so we spent the next year studying warfare. Warfare models, intelligence models, technologies. And it led us to, we kind of threw together this book on all the things that we'd studied and of course we briefed it at other levels. But we, but we asked, can we publish this as a book? Sure, we don't care. And so we did. And it's interesting, on the COVID of the book, the first version of it, the chief scientist of the NRO actually put on there that it was, it was fascinating. So anyway, we, so I'm in. Move back, move back to where we were with the Skinwalker story. So I'm in this room in the Pentagon. This guy's got a copy of my book and it's got some post it notes in it. And after a bit he asked everybody else to leave but me. And he says, I'm Jay Stratton, I'm the director of the government's present UFO program. And I was at Skinwalker Ranch in 2009, or whatever year it was two, I think was 2009. And he said, I'm aware of what's going on out there and I'd like for you to come work for us on the UAP task force. It wasn't called that. It's called at the time, it's called the Interagency. Interagency Task force. And it was, that's just how we referred to it. It was no official title for it, but it was official and funded. It just didn't have an official title, I think for a purpose.
- [103:06]
A
Right, right.
- [103:07]
B
If they give it a title, then they had to worry about explaining it to somebody.
- [103:10]
A
Right. A tip was not an official title.
- [103:12]
B
A tip was never an official title. So what it was, OS app was actually a contract.
- [103:17]
A
Right? That's Bigelow's program.
- [103:19]
B
Yep. And what it was, they actually released a call for proposals and Bigelow Airspace was the only company that responded to the proposal. So I mean, they awarded a contract.
- [103:27]
A
Sure.
- [103:28]
B
And then when. So the interesting thing about that and the, the award, original award was for 20 something million dollars, but some people in the Pentagon found out about what was going on, didn't like it, and, and pulled about half the money. And I think Bigelow, I don't, I mean rightfully so, got pissed, you know, they didn't get all the money that he was supposed to get. And so what, what you got from the end results of that was just a final report written by Eric Davis and Hal put off or whatever, and none of the details of the findings. Everybody thinks Bigelow still has something hidden away somewhere here in Vegas at his facility. You know, whether that's the case or not, it doesn't matter. I mean, what the government got was what they got.
- [104:15]
A
Right. And I don't think he's hiding anything.
- [104:18]
B
I don't, I don't, I don't think Bigelow's hiding anything at all. In fact, when we've talked to him, he doesn't have any desire to go back to the property. He thinks it was not beneficial to him and his family. Right, right. And by the end of it. They were so perplexed as to what the hell was going on that I think they just kind of gave up. And while they weren't. While he was happy to get rid of it, at the same time, he's still curious. I think him and. Well, I know him and Jay still talk a lot, and I think him and Brandon talk occasionally as well. BRANDON FUGAL THE NEW OWNER PROPERTY well,
- [104:53]
A
I think Bob wants to know what's going on. He just doesn't want to pay for it, though.
- [104:57]
B
I get the impression that he became a billionaire by not wasting his money.
- [105:02]
A
Of course.
- [105:03]
B
And when I talked to his team members of the time, they didn't have a lot of funds and a lot of resources. Right. I mean, they, they would get stuff when they needed it. But here's the other thing. In the 90s and early 2000s, when they did this, the technology that we're using today would have cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars. And we're paying 50 bucks or 100 bucks for something that's such a really exquisite piece of equipment now. So just due to, you know, more potential, the new, the research we're doing out there now is way better funded, it's way better documented. I mean, we got better equipment just because technology and IMPROVEMENT Right before we
- [105:41]
A
get back to the ranch, can you tell me what's an alien invasion? What's our strategy? What are our tactics?
- [105:45]
B
So, so I created a model. First is to be prepared. That was our first thing was basically the Boy Scout motto, be prepared. Right. And we're not. We don't. We. When we talk to people within the services and the agencies, they all said we treat it like any other invasion and do reconnaissance and then decide on a tactical plan. They had no strategic plan. Right. For this. It's all going to be. We'll treat it just like any other warfare, but it's not going to be like any other warfare. If they can travel from here to there, they're going to have levels of technologies that will look like magic. And we're going to think about that. And we've actually came up with scenarios that were religious invasions, political invasions, you know, magic, you know, things like that that we wouldn't really. Our time invasions. One of the things that time invasions. Yeah. Think about like this. I use Independence Day as a perfect example. They people don't think about what was going on in Independence Day. They say, well, that ship crashed here in the 50s or whatever, and we were, we hadn't reversed engineered much on it. Well, did it crash here in the 50s for the aliens, if that mothership was approaching it and slowing down from near the speed of light and they sent the scout ship out there, it could have been five minutes on board the ship. Right, right. And, and they could have been, they could have known that and been done something to prepare us in a way that would embed weaknesses into our systems. Right. So we're not thinking about any strategic plans like that. And so I created from what's called Lanchester's Laws, it's where every video game engine, every, every combat model, everything is based on, and they were created in 1970, 17. And Enrico Fermi should have known better when he, when he did his stupid Fermi's paradox thing, we could talk about that, but it's just stupid. Anyway.
- [107:43]
A
His paradox is stupid. Like where are the aliens?
- [107:45]
B
Yeah, that's the dumbest because he based it on exponential growth model.
- [107:50]
A
Yeah.
- [107:50]
B
And there was no known species period in history that's ever grown that way. And with, especially with no competition, etc. And the way predator, prey, species work was known very well. And it was created a set of laws called Lanchester's laws in 1917. And that's like I said, Lanchester was given money by the War Department to study predator and prey models to create models for warfare. And it worked very well. Otherwise Call of Duty wouldn't work the way it does. Right, right. Fortnite wouldn't work the way it does. All these things wouldn't work the way they do. And so anyway, if Fermi would have known that, he would have realized his question was using math that didn't fit the model. Right. He said, well, I'm going to apply this math that we know doesn't fit any known species and say, well then all the species in the universe have already overrun us by now. Well, but that's not the same model. It's really bad science. It's really bad science. And for a Nobel Prize winning Manhattan Project physicists to have done that. I call that the famous scientist phenomenon.
- [109:02]
A
Sure.
- [109:03]
B
Just because he was famous, everybody believes it. Right. And I refer to it as Fermi's blunder. I don't refer to it as Fermi's paradox.
- [109:10]
A
Right. There's no such thing as elephants. Why not? I've never seen one.
- [109:13]
B
That's right, I've never seen one. And hey, people think that reindeer can't fly. Have you ever seen them? Not just because you haven't seen them, it doesn't mean they can't. They just choose not to. When you're there. Right. So that's, that's that square root of four thing again. Right.
- [109:29]
A
So
- [109:31]
B
where were we going with it? Oh yeah, so, so I created a model in detail on a modern invasion scenario. Accounted for everything, mobile forces, ground forces, air forces, artillery, blue on blue, which is, you know, you know, self infliction and everything I could think of embedded in the model. And then started running scenarios of invasions. And I would give the invading force force multipliers. Like for example, it would take 10 hits of a 565 round, you know, before it would penetrate. And they have armor or force fields
- [110:09]
A
or whatever is the Call of Duty bullet, sponge?
- [110:12]
B
Pretty much, yeah. And I would give them speed. Maybe their mobile forces were three times faster. I tried all sorts of different scenarios and basically in no scenario did we win. And I did something like 100 to 200 different scenarios. And the only one that I did find a solution where we would win. It was really interesting. I said, well, let's try Independence Day. All of them at once. They come here and they invade us. And let's say that they can get reinforcements back from their homeworld, say every 20 years. And to some amount of reinforcements. I gave them numbers, right. If they started with some number, say they had 100 to start with and they could get 10 every 10, whatever it was, and the invasion starts, they pretty much wipe out 90% of the population in the first day. But now here's the scenario. Every human being of the age 14 or older, which is, I just guess that's the age old enough to carry a weapon, was carrying a weapon or in some form or fashion supporting the war effort. Every female of fertile age was pregnant with triplets. Okay, and at that point, this is
- [111:29]
A
the way we win.
- [111:30]
B
Yes.
- [111:30]
A
Okay.
- [111:31]
B
And at that point the population starts in cycles, increasing to a point where we had a resistance, basically an asymmetric situation. And after about 40 years, it became too expensive for the aliens and they would either completely be attrited or give up and leave. And when I got to look at the model, I realized I just recreated the Soviet Afghan war.
- [111:58]
A
Yes, in the 70s. Yes.
- [112:01]
B
And that's exactly what happened right now. The only thing different is the Afghanis did have a symmetric organization feeding technologies to them. They did, you know, we gave them, you know, anti aircraft weapons and stuff, but, or anti helicopter mostly. But that, that was the only scenario where we, is, if we create a, you know, a resistance movement, we repopulate as fast as possible. And so I was thinking, you know, fertility drugs, whatever was It.
- [112:33]
A
America only or the whole world.
- [112:34]
B
This was the whole world. The whole world, yeah.
- [112:36]
A
So that. That has to happen too.
- [112:38]
B
Yeah.
- [112:38]
A
Everybody's got to get in line.
- [112:39]
B
Yeah. Well, so the onslaught at the beginning would just remove, you know, government lines.
- [112:44]
A
That's true.
- [112:45]
B
Yeah. It's just. It's Terminator at that point.
- [112:47]
A
Yeah.
- [112:48]
B
Yeah.
- [112:49]
A
I got to read this. It's kind of dark.
- [112:51]
B
It's. Yeah, it's. It's. It reads very. It's. It was. It was written like a textbook. It was dry, but it, but it, it is to say, all right, somebody needs to look at this and realize we're not doing it. You know, one of the things that, that Jay and I had planned to do and I. It's one of my plans. I've written about, I've talked about that the first thing you have to do to create a real team is they have to have a common nomenclature. And so for the first month, two months, I would have the entire team watching every science fiction movie, reading every comic book, watching every cartoon, because I'll give you a perfect example. John Ringo, bestselling military science fiction writer, and I co authored a book called Von Neumann's War. It was a science fiction basically of Von Neumann probes. Came here and we started defending against them. Well, I had one of the. They did this in the book. They had a team where they got together and they spent like two weeks cramming on every sci fi thing they could. And somebody realized that in the second season of Justice League Unlimited, there was an episode called Dark Heart. And Dark Heart was a Von Neumann probe generating device crashed on Earth and started creating Von Neumann probes, replicators. It's going everywhere. And they were eating everything and reproducing themselves. And the entire Justice League couldn't defeat these things. It was Superman and all of them, you know, and it took the. The atom, Ray Park, Dr. Park to realize he had to go down in nano scale and find their. Their main processor chip. They had the program to replicate and turn it off, but Spoiler, I guess. But I had the nomenclature to be able to tell people, hey, what if it's the Dark Heart scenario and we need to figure out if there's something like what they. How they did that, you know, or what if. And not to, you know, throw rocks at a Steven Spielberg movie, but if you ever saw the. The miniseries he did that made Dakota Fanning famous. Taken.
- [114:54]
A
Yes.
- [114:55]
B
And if you watch Disclosure Day, they're the same plot.
- [114:58]
A
Yes.
- [114:59]
B
Did you notice that?
- [115:00]
A
Of course.
- [115:01]
B
The same plot.
- [115:02]
A
Everything I didn't love that movie.
- [115:04]
B
Yeah, I was hoping for. It was not bad. It was a movie.
- [115:08]
A
It was a Spielberg movie.
- [115:09]
B
Yeah. But my point was I just used a previous nomenclature to tell you what this scenario was, and now I don't have to go and figure out a way to explain it to everybody. We have a common language that we can speak. I could say, oh, you remember that episode of Stargate SG1 where they did this or that? Or you remember we had a conversation earlier, Star Trek, where I brought up Star Trek, Next Generation, the episode of the Threes.
- [115:37]
A
I get it now.
- [115:39]
B
And so that's our common nomenclature. And I wonder if we've been doing that by accident on purpose.
- [115:50]
A
That's interesting.
- [115:51]
B
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so too.
- [115:55]
A
Speaking of your books, your first book, I think, was about a physicist who does something that gets like the. The government angry or the Cabal or something like that. Was that warp drive.
- [116:08]
B
So warp speed.
- [116:09]
A
Warp speed.
- [116:10]
B
Well, it was a little. It's a little. So it was about the first group of scientists that. That build a warp drive demonstrator. And they. They go to this is space shuttle era, so this was written in 2000, and they go up to do the experiment on the shuttle. And unbeknownst to them, of course, there are some bad guys who realize that a warp drive would be much better than a nuclear weapon.
- [116:40]
A
Sure.
- [116:40]
B
You slammed it into the. Slammed an object into the planet at, you know, speed or the speed of light, you know, you'd crack the planet in half. Yeah, whatever. You know, I don't know why people would want a weapon that would do that unless you plan on fighting a whole planet. But. And so there was a lot of mayhem that ensued with that. And it turned out the sequel to that. Actually, I went more into what that cabal was, and it didn't have anything to do with gray aliens from Zeta Reticuli.
- [117:10]
A
Well, you. Eventually, you spent a lot of time in the intelligence community. So what did that author get right?
- [117:19]
B
What did I get right in that?
- [117:20]
A
You get right?
- [117:20]
B
What did I get right over your
- [117:22]
A
career, you're like, well, well, shit, I wrote about that 10 years ago.
- [117:25]
B
Yeah. So, you know, I had to. Before I could release those. The first ones. I was heavy into the IC stuff and they had to pre read it and do Dopser is what they call it now, you know, to say it's. You can release it to the public. And then after I started being more prolific, I wrote about four or five science fiction novels all at once. It comes and goes in surges. Right. And so the review team was like, we're not going to keep doing these, you know, if it's classified or not, don't put it in there. If you do, you'll get in trouble.
- [117:55]
A
Right.
- [117:55]
B
I mean that's basically. And so they, they said we're not reviewing your science fiction stuff anymore. It's science fiction. And so. But I've always done my best to make it hard science as true to possible as it could be with as few magic wands as possible. Of course there has to be a magic wand that, you know, we haven't invented yet or, or it's not as much fun. I mean, would Raiders of Lost Ark be as awesome if the Ark didn't do what it did at the end?
- [118:23]
A
No. You need the faces to melt.
- [118:24]
B
Yeah. You have to. Right. So that, that's kind of the way they are. But I got, I did things like with security clearances and oh, you couldn't carry a cell phone. Like that's one thing that kills me about Stargate SG1 is they get a lot of it. Right. But you'll see them in the, in, in the facility with their cell phones. Yeah. And I'm like there's a lockbox right outside the door that, you know there's no cell phones in there. Unless they had some kind of alien technology that allowed them to have super secret cell phones that, that could do that. But there, there are a lot of little things like that that get on my nerves when I see that.
- [119:04]
A
How close was your warp drive to like the Alba carrier drive?
- [119:07]
B
So it was basically an Alcubierre, was it? Yeah.
- [119:10]
A
So, so explain how that works.
- [119:11]
B
Yeah. So in 1994, Miguel Acubieri wrote a paper called something like Hyper Fast travel within general Relativity. And the, the paper showed that if you created a, basically a, a dip in space in front of you and a bump in space behind you that, that space time itself would push your spacecraft not. You wouldn't need a propulsion, you know, exhaust or anything. It would just. Space time would move it.
- [119:45]
A
You just fall.
- [119:46]
B
Yep. And keep falling. Right. And you can make it fall as fast as you want to. Arbitrarily fast speeds, he said. But the problem with his paper is he showed that it took basically all the matter in the universe, energy wise to create that. But immediately. But so, but that's okay. He showed that it was doable within the theory of physics as we understand it, our standard model. And then that says okay then if he can do it this way, are there Other ways to do it that makes it, you know, actually engineering engineer Bowl, I guess. Anyway, so immediately before he'd wrote it, in 94, before 2000, there were, I'm going to say, 100 papers written where they kept incrementally getting his theory better. The idea better that, okay, we can. And it got down to say, oh, the mass of a star then. Oh, wait, the. The mass of a planet now. And, you know, I recently had a paper published about a year ago in Journal British and Planetary Society that showed that if you made layers of material and you had the warp field in the material, that you could get to almost no exotic matter requirement. And it's not the matter, the mass of a star or the mass of a galaxy, you get down to actual numbers that we could actually engineer.
- [121:10]
A
I think I read this paper. Is this about the electromagnetic field through the. Through the waveguides of the. Of the metal?
- [121:18]
B
It's similar. That was one of the papers. There's a paper like that that I use as a reference, but I'll send you a copy of. Actually shows that the idea is you can modify Einstein's equations in the material, right. So it's like you don't change the speed of light in the air, you change the speed of light in the material that is the whole of your spaceship. Which really, I got the idea from some of the whistleblower statements on how they. Number one, also from the original arch parts. You can't talk about the stuff without talking about Art Bell.
- [121:54]
A
He's on my list.
- [121:55]
B
Yeah. So back in the 90s, I was a master's degree student in physics at the time, working for the army in a directed energy weapons laboratory. And I heard Linda Howe talking about the parts that she had received or that Art had received and that she was investigating that allegedly came from the Roswell crash. And so I emailed Linda Howe and said, I'm a scientist with the Army. I have a laboratory. My bosses said, it's okay, I could use the lab, you know, after work hours.
- [122:25]
A
Well, hang on. If we're going to talk about this, let's set it up. So. So someone calls Art Bell and says, I've got this stuff, and he says, if it's real, send it to me. And they did. And then Art sends it to you?
- [122:34]
B
Yes, After I emailed and said, I'm a scientist for the Army, I'd love to.
- [122:38]
A
Right.
- [122:38]
B
He said, so Art and Linda Howe said, okay, we're going to send it to you and you do what you can do. And so they sent me all the information. Then the let a copy of the letter that the guy had sent to Art Bell. And so I got the parts and I started investigating them. They were really interesting. They were layers of a magnesium zinc alloy. Between and between those, there's like one Oreo cookie on top of another. And the double stuff was pure bismuth. And it was really thin. Like, I think it was like 4 microns or something like that. Really, really thin. And they were stacked together and there were tens of layers and they weren't delaminating, they weren't peeling apart. And every attempt that I did, and anybody that I know, and I even know that some folks at the Skunk Works tried to reproduce them, and they could never reproduce the material without them pulling apart. And I know that even at the Skunk Works, they destroyed a million dollar piece of equipment trying to reproduce the parts. And so since we never could reproduce the parts, number one tells me somebody spent a lot of money or got really lucky if it was a hoax trying to do it. And then my other thought was, okay, it was for something. Well, in the letter it says if you get it in a million volt static electric field and expose it to certain frequencies, that it'll do things. So I built a million volt static field generator. And then I put the materials in there and. And I found that when I hit it with a particular frequency. I don't remember exactly. I have to look when it was around 30-40 MHz. I know that's interesting. That number comes up. It is, right. It's around 30-40 MHz. That every single time, once it was charged up to a million volts and I would hit it with that, the object would either move directly towards the antenna or directly away from the antenna and I. And it was repeatable.
- [124:29]
A
And is there video of this?
- [124:31]
B
There was that. I videoed it all and sent to Linda. She's got it. I think it's on her website, actually.
- [124:35]
A
Okay.
- [124:37]
B
This was in the 90s, man.
- [124:38]
A
I would think the military would want to talk to you about this.
- [124:41]
B
Well, they never did.
- [124:43]
A
Okay.
- [124:43]
B
And then when I got on the UAP task force, I realized that the parts that Tom DeLonge had were the
- [124:52]
A
same parts, the same exact parts, same
- [124:55]
B
exact parts that I had sent back to Linda Howe when I was done with them.
- [124:59]
A
Tom got arts parts?
- [125:00]
B
Yeah.
- [125:01]
A
Wow.
- [125:02]
B
And so his team were looking at it and there was a guy that was working. So somehow they were, you know, Tom and Jay knew each other through circles. And so Jay was very aware of the research and had me connect with him and I told him what I had seen and they tried it and they said they had seen, I think, similar things and nobody had still been able to reproduce them. And this is 20 years later. Right. So in 20 something years. And see, I never had any funding to look at it. I mean, I just did it on my own spare time after hours in the lab. And. And so Jay and I were going to do more with it. At this point, we were supposed to get funding for the UAP task force to look into these things. So my point about art parts is I'm not saying they're alien, I don't know what they are, but whoever made them had some purpose for them.
- [125:55]
A
Sure.
- [125:56]
B
And if it was a hoax, it was a dang expensive or clever hoax because we haven't been able to reproduce those same materials in the same way and keep them from falling apart.
- [126:09]
A
You can't organize bismuth at the micron level.
- [126:12]
B
Well, so they were. The way we reproduced them was vacuum vapor deposition, but it peeled off every time. And so I. I don't know how this was put together. And it's really interesting to me. There's a. There's a sort of a random jaggedness to the interface between the bismuth and the metal part and how put off. And Eric Davis, they suggested that it was some sort of fractal pattern that enabled it. And so I got to looking into it. And if it is a fractal pattern, then perhaps what it's doing is creating points where cohesion can actually happen, where it can stickiness. Right. Like Van der Waals between the points that are close to each other. And maybe that's what's helping hold it together. But that's just a hypothesis. And again, there's not been any money really spent to reproduce these things or reverse engineer them. The same problem happened with the Kona Blue thing. Right. That, you know, that's where Hal was supposed to get some parts to work on. And it got right up to the end. And then some people had it crushed and didn't give them the parts.
- [127:29]
A
That's right. Kona Blue with a K, if you guys want to look that up. How close was that sandwich technique to what you found in the ranch?
- [127:36]
B
So when I first saw the metal flakes that had the aluminum iron coated with tellurium and europium.
- [127:44]
A
You said coated well.
- [127:46]
B
So it's like the center substrate is a. It's maybe a tenth of a millimeter of aluminum Iron alloy. And then on the top. On one side. Well, top or bottom, I don't know what's up. But on one side it was almost pure tellurium, and on the other side was almost pure europium, which is clearly manufactured. But why? I don't know. And so that. Just because it was layered like that is the one thing that I thought was interesting that was similar. It looked like visibly. It looked very similar to the arts parts material.
- [128:20]
A
Would that stuff conduct electricity?
- [128:23]
B
Oh, yeah, the aluminum iron mixture. Are you talking about arts parts stuff?
- [128:27]
A
No, the stuff you found. Yeah, we conduct.
- [128:29]
B
Yeah. And I tell you what, the ceramic that we found, it was really interesting because it was. It was paramagnetic, if not superconducting, at room temperature.
- [128:40]
A
At room temperature, yeah.
- [128:41]
B
We could hold it over a magnet and it would jump away from the magnet and this is a ceramic like material. And we put it in a liquid nitrogen bath and it would never cool down. So. And I mean, it continually boiled off at a high rate, the liquid nitrogen.
- [128:58]
A
So it's energetic ceramic.
- [129:00]
B
It's doing something that's not letting itself cool down. That's all I. That's all I know. We let it sit for an hour in the liquid nitrogen. Had to continually refuel, and the liquid nitrogen was boiling off at a rate faster than standard liquid nitrogen bollock.
- [129:13]
A
Are you guys just standing around like. I don't know. I don't know what it's.
- [129:16]
B
That's exactly what we're doing. We're saying, what the hell is going on? And I've never seen anything like this in the world.
- [129:21]
A
Now.
- [129:21]
B
Now the really weird thing, we need to reproduce this many times before I'll really stand up down and say there's something to it. But I took a. We call them dollies on Rocket City rednecks because they wouldn't let us say Sharpie on tv. But I. But I took a dolly and I put a dot on one side of the ceramic material and then I put it in a Mettler balance and I held a magnet above the thing and I tested many times to make sure I was found the range where I wasn't affecting the balance. And I held a magnet over it and got the weight. Then I just flipped over the material and repeated the experiment. One side was always heavier than the other.
- [130:00]
A
Wow.
- [130:02]
B
And then we did that like 20 times that day. We had the materials in the lab and. And it was the average over the. 20 times was always the size. One side was always heavier than the other, and it was the Same side. It was always heavier than the other.
- [130:16]
A
I don't know if this is the right term, but have you ever heard of flux pinning?
- [130:19]
B
Yes. In fact, that came up. It did. That came up in. Yes.
- [130:23]
A
Do you have to explain that? But that's crazy. This came up flux.
- [130:25]
B
Okay, so the idea. So that's basically the Meisner effect. Right. So if you take a superconductor and you put it whenever it becomes superconducting, and you typically see this in the videos, they'll pour the liquid nitrogen over the little ceramic block and then it'll start floating. Well, so as soon as it becomes superconducting, sets itself up interior wise that it is mapping out the magnetic field it's exposed to currently. Now, if you change that magnetic field, the superconductor had already pinned the flux inside the superconductor in a way that it will always oppose any changes so that the magnetic field stays the same inside the superconductor. So that's why if you touch it, it'll spin itself back to the orientation where the magnetic field was. That's why you can thump them. They'll just sit there and spin because it's trying to get itself back to where the magnetic field is the way it was when it first became a superconductor.
- [131:23]
A
Yep.
- [131:24]
B
And so we thought about this. Well, is it possible that this is room temperature Meissner effect that we're seeing happen? And. But we were hoping that we would see other superconducting properties and we haven't seen. But what we do see is something that it's paramagnetic like, which is light superconducting. Like it's like the, there's, there's almost superconducting and it's kind of what we call paramag. Paramagnetic. And so this is one of the most baffling. So this is another one of the things we can't explain is coming out of Skinwalker Ranch.
- [131:59]
A
Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I want to know what can shut off a drone at 3,000ft?
- [132:03]
B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [132:06]
A
So seven years of instruments have sketched out something on that property where GPS doesn't work. And what is going on with the drones? What can shut off a drone at exactly the same height?
- [132:16]
B
That's, that's really bizarre. And how. Because the drone comms are encrypted. And so if you're talking about the experiment that we actually just showed this
- [132:26]
A
past week, I think 3271.
- [132:29]
B
Yeah. So we got up to just over 3,000ft. We, it's really interesting. Over the years we've flown weather balloons, helicopters, rockets, drones, all sorts of things. Well, drones can't go higher than 400ft without a special permit.
- [132:41]
A
Right.
- [132:41]
B
But we've flown all the way up to 10,000ft above sea level. A little bit higher, maybe 11,000 because we've measured anomalies there with instruments. And the weather balloon we launched there went up to 70,000ft and we measured stuff all the way up through to about 20,000ft. There were high electromagnetic fields that were surging on a perfectly clear day. And the instruments acted like they had gone through an electrical storm.
- [133:09]
A
And it's happening up in the atmosphere
- [133:11]
B
all the way from surface upwards in that one spot over the property. And what's really weird is we've launched balloons before and air currents will take them and they'll go, you know, miles and miles and miles. But we, we had one day where we launched a balloon there and it went straight up and came straight down and landed on the property.
- [133:29]
A
That shouldn't happen.
- [133:29]
B
No, it shouldn't happen. No, that can't happen. Are you kidding? I've done a lot of how to balloon launches. We, with instruments on them and I find them in the next state. You know, I don't, I don't find. If you find them at all. Right, yeah. And so we flew one that had a tracker on it and when it got to 5,000ft, it vanished. The tracker quit working, the balloon went away. We literally sit there watching it and then none of us could see it anymore.
- [133:53]
A
Did it ever show up?
- [133:54]
B
Nobody ever found it. Nobody ever found it. And we never found the. And it had a tracker on. The tracker just went away. And so we hit a. So a few years back we had an anomaly where rockets kept messing up around 30ft above the launch pad in this one spot.
- [134:11]
A
30ft.
- [134:12]
B
Around 30ft. And in fact we had a big one. We spent a lot of money on building it, had a lot of instruments in it. And at 31ft it exploded. And so we were doing an experiment with a high speed camera and a rocket in the same spot. And there was a flash of light and then the rocket exploded at 31ft. And then in the high speed infrared camera, there was an appearance of an object overhead that was tens of meters across. It looked like Galactus, his helmet in the video. I mean it has a, like a Viking. It had a thing like this. But then we found it in another camera that was 90 degrees off. So it's orthogonal and it looked exactly the same. So it's, it suggests geometric symmetry. Like a sombrero. Yeah, right. That's kind of what I'm thinking is like a sombrero.
- [134:59]
A
So it wasn't exactly opposed, it was an angle.
- [135:01]
B
So it had to be, it had to be symmetric. Or if you look at something that's in another dimension.
- [135:07]
A
Yeah.
- [135:07]
B
It always will look the same.
- [135:09]
A
Right, it's like a hypercube. Yeah.
- [135:11]
B
And so it was the tesseract. Right. So it was one of those things that made that, you know, I said for fun. But, but what we have, the data, what we have was when we hit this thing at 31ft, the rocket exploded, There was a flash of light. And the object that we captured, whatever it was, we couldn't see with the naked eye. But in the infrared it was setting there over our heads at 31ft. We refer to it as the blob because it looks kind of like a blob. Hey, this is weird. We found a Navajo sand painting that looks just like what we saw in the infrared, which I find really odd. Right.
- [135:44]
A
Yeah.
- [135:45]
B
What a coincidence. But anyway, so we've continually seen anomalies, large energetic anomalies in this location. And so we put a terrestrial laser scanner, lidar system there to map out and see if we can see anything in there. And what came back and has been repeated 20, 30 different times now with multiple instruments that there is some sort of bubble that's 2,000ft in radius that is expanded over the property. It shows up every time in these terrestrial laser scans. And we've used more than one instrument and more than one brand of instrument and it shows up. And we've measured now with the drones flying through this area where the bubble is, their 5 GHz communication signal is completely cut off while they're in 120 foot thickness region where we estimate the bubble is according to the LiDAR. So we were like, well, let's go up to the top of it. That 2,000 foot spot. That's what we were trying to get to. And when the. Also when the balloon had gone up and we got measurements, there was a big hit on electromagnetic energy at 3200ft. So we were like, well, maybe there's something at 3200ft. And then there was another one at 5000, same frequency. Well, with the balloon it was broad spectrum instrument. It was a bucket. So it was the drones that could told us the 5 GHz thing because they have two comm frequencies that are encrypted one's around 5 GHz, five point something gigahertz. And one's at like 2.45 or something. Right. And it's interesting, but it's strange that
- [137:19]
A
we've got interference in all these frequencies that we use.
- [137:23]
B
Yes, I know that. It sounds sort of designed, doesn't it?
- [137:27]
A
It does, yeah.
- [137:28]
B
So we were hoping to get the drones up to 5,000ft because a lot of people think we're just doing a drone light show because these guys are like super light show guys, sky elements. They, they did the Wolverine and Deadpool thing at Comic Con.
- [137:41]
A
You know, I think they're in Guinness.
- [137:43]
B
Yes. The most drones at one time. Yeah. Right. Well, but what people don't understand to do those shows, they have the most precise navigation systems on those drones in sequence than any other system on the planet.
- [137:57]
A
Right. I don't know how they do it.
- [137:58]
B
Yeah, it's fantastic. And there's something like 61 or something like that. Instruments on each one of these little drones. They're measuring everything from magnetic fields to electric fields, to inertia changes to gravitational. They're measuring everything. So they actually are exquisite scientific instruments. The lights is just a benefit. And you can see it visually and track them with cameras as well. So we designed an experiment. We were going to take a bunch of them, like a hundred of them, all the way up to 5,000ft. And nobody had ever flown swarm that high. They had to get special FCC and FAA waivers to do it. And so they were doing the test flights first with just four of them. And they got four of them up to. And it's really interesting because while this experiment was going on, I had Covid and so I had to stay in my jeep with instruments and stay a long way away and just watch it from a distance and just kind of be a spotter. Right. And I felt like crap.
- [139:02]
A
But
- [139:04]
B
so as the drones were going up, everything looked normal. And they were chasing them with one of those drones they race with. They call them an fpv first person viewer drone. And so it was going around like 50 mile an hour, zipping around him as it going up. And it gets to a point where something just literally pushed the FPV drone away. And the guy said, I've never seen anything like that. And we've got that captured on. You see it here and then suddenly, boom. It's just like something reached out and grabbed it and just slung it. I mean, it's like, you know, superhero kind of looking stuff.
- [139:32]
A
Yeah.
- [139:32]
B
And then the Drones go a few more feet up, and you see the lights start blinking. And then they do a quick jump to the southwest. And then something just turned them off, and they fell straight down. And they fell from 3200. I think it was 3217 or something like that. 3200ft, give or take. And did they fall all the way down? Crash straight down? I'm in the field just outside the bubble, 2,000ft away, yelling, guys, take cover. They're falling right on top of it. What the hell's going on? Is everybody okay? Somebody say something? And I know they're ducking under cars and stuff. They don't have time to talk to me on radio. So they look through the software and something encoded into the drones while they were flying. A subroutine that was a kill command. No way.
- [140:26]
A
And this wasn't like, interference?
- [140:28]
B
No. Something literally told them to turn themselves off. But here's the thing. And tell them, turn them off. It was a kill command. It literally said the subroutine was literally. The guys said, we've never seen it. We didn't code this. We don't know what it is. It's a kill command. I said, what do you mean, kill command? He says, it means to kill it. It's going to crash itself into the ground as fast as it can from 3,000ft. And so they repeated with a new set of drones, and when they got to that after, the exact same thing happened again.
- [141:00]
A
Subroutine.
- [141:01]
B
Yep. And so this is where they said, okay, we're not doing this again tonight.
- [141:05]
A
Expensive.
- [141:06]
B
Yeah. Well, those drones are like they told us because three years before, we had what we called droneageddon. And so they were going to fly 1,000 drones, 600 of them at the Triangle and 400 in the east field. So one's inside the bubble, one's outside the bubble. We didn't know about the bubble yet, but we had an anomaly out there and an anomaly in here, and we wanted to see if they were connected. And so the idea was we thought the anomalies were localized. We're gonna create a cylinder on each end and surround the cylinder to surround the spot where the anomaly is with a cylinder of them, and then fire a rocket up through the middle. So if something's gonna get out of the way, you. You'll see the drones move.
- [141:43]
A
That's a great idea.
- [141:44]
B
That was our experiment plan, and we're doing that simultaneously on each end. Well, the drones, they practiced off property, and they were accurate to within a microsecond. Okay. They bring them on property and they could only get of the 600 that was launched fine the day before somewhere else. They only get 400 of them to go up. And when the 400 got up, they launched seven seconds later than they were supposed to. Then ours went up, ours got up. On my end they created the cylinder and started going around the anomaly. And then on the other end as theirs get up to, they got to about 30 something feet and then they start going crazy and they jumped to 70 something feet and started falling out of the sky. But they weren't just falling, they were physically chasing people.
- [142:30]
A
What?
- [142:31]
B
One of the guys literally took his leather jacket off and was beating them off of camera guys. And, and on my end we hear, we hear over the radio, it's raining drones down here. Everybody getting your effing cars, let's get, get in your cars. And on my end our cylinder formed but when they got there and the cylinder was 300ft tall. Now these drones are like a five pound brick. Okay. So they're battery, they're all like all battery. Right. So you imagine dropping a five pound battery from 300ft. If it hit you in the head, you know you're not walking away from that.
- [143:01]
A
Nope.
- [143:02]
B
And so we're out there, the cylinder's up and there's the action camera guy, me and another guy, dragon, we're there about to launch the rocket and sudden we hear thud. And we turn and look and the camera guy puts his camera light down on the ground and there's one of the drones between us and we look up and there's another one coming, right. And we're, holy crap, everybody, we just scatter, you know, and we get up there and the drones are just, they start chasing us, the cylinders following us and they even had a fence. So we had a safety procedure there. If something goes wrong. We were to run to the southwest because the drones were geo fenced off with the gps it could not go there. Well they didn't care about that geofence. They kept chasing us and dropping drones at us like bombs. And that, that continued for a good five, ten minutes, something like that. For all the drones finally got on the ground and they lost, we added up they lost something like a million dollars.
- [143:54]
A
Sure.
- [143:55]
B
In that experiment. And the company was like, they do one every day somewhere in the world and they're making so much money. I think it was to them, they just kind of smiled and said well we learned something. And we're like yeah, you learned you lost a million dollars Worth of drones. But so they ruggedized them for the next year and so on. And they keep bringing them back, better ones, but something still keeps affecting them. And this was three generations from droneageddon. And these drones still, when they got to this spot at 4,000ft, something managed to get inside them, change the code and force them to kill themselves.
- [144:27]
A
Could they do another iteration to prevent the code change?
- [144:31]
B
Well, I'd say stay tuned on that.
- [144:34]
A
Something tells me it doesn't matter what they do.
- [144:38]
B
It's so funny to me that of course the skeptics and things in the toxic verse out there started saying, well, you guys could just program the drones to do all that. I'm like, yeah, for a million dollars. Have you seen what a documentary series budget actually is? It's not that.
- [144:52]
A
No, it's not.
- [144:53]
B
Not for one episode. That's basically. That's basically our entire engineering budget for a whole season.
- [145:00]
A
So it sounds like there's. There's something there that is sentient, that doesn't want. I mean, well.
- [145:06]
B
So the Bigelow guys left us with a narrative. In fact, I think it was Colonel Alexander that actually made up the words. Or it could have been Kelleher. But I've heard Alexander say it. Of a precognitive sentient intelligence.
- [145:21]
A
Yeah, that's his right.
- [145:22]
B
And that's what they said. They think the ranch is. I don't know. But precognitive, that means it can. It knows what we're going to do ahead of time.
- [145:32]
A
Well, I asked him, does that mean that the future is written and it can see it, or does can it detect your intent? And he's like, we don't know.
- [145:39]
B
We believe. And this is purely from belief with our personal experiences, anytime we've done something on the fly, we've surprised whatever it is. That's interesting because we found the blob that first rocket night where we hit whatever it was over the triangle and we saw it in the cameras. We were supposed to do a different experiment and something fell through at the last minute and we didn't have anything to do, but we had the crew and we're like, well, we gotta do something. And I said, well, let's just go to the. We got this high speed camera guy. Let's just take it out to the triangle and shoot a bunch of rockets and just see if anything happens. And we did. And something happened. And that was like. Literally we thought of it in like 10 minutes, went and set up and started doing it. And we've seemed to, you know, maybe Sneak up on whatever it is when we do things like that. And so we believe when we add an intent to something we're about to do, that's when we get a response from the property. It either hides itself or makes itself visible for us to notice if it wants us do something or don't want it. I know it sounds stupid, crazy, whatever. I remember laughing at the guys the first day I met them when they said, the ranch will respond to me. They said, it responds to different people in different ways. And I laughed and said, it's just a piece of property. It's dirt. How's it going to respond?
- [146:54]
A
Every skeptic comes back with the same story, like something's going on, man. I don't know what it is.
- [146:59]
B
I was as skeptical as they could be when I went out there, man. And I. I've been out there. This would be my eighth year. And I still. I know there's. So. I'm not. People say you. Are you an experience or whatever? Say, no, I'm not an experiencer. I'm a knower. I know that whatever is there is something. I just don't know what the hell it is.
- [147:17]
A
Is it. Is there other properties like this around the world?
- [147:20]
B
So I believe there are. We did a brief foray into some other places because we're planning some. Maybe some future experiments. Maybe in Dulce, New Mexico.
- [147:30]
A
Oh, boy.
- [147:30]
B
That at Secret Mountain.
- [147:32]
A
Yeah.
- [147:33]
B
Out at Mount Shasta.
- [147:36]
A
Yeah. These are all the places.
- [147:38]
B
Mount Wilson, perhaps. You know, there are some place. There's a place in upstate New York, too. And I don't remember exactly what it's called, but we've had a lot of people reporting phenomena back to us from there somewhere. It's wilderness, you know, in upstate New York.
- [147:52]
A
All the native tribes have stories about these places.
- [147:54]
B
Yeah, well, you know, upstate New New York would have been like, what, the Mohicans, probably.
- [147:58]
A
Sure. Yeah.
- [148:00]
B
So any of. Any of that. But that's an interesting point you bring that up because the. The aboriginal species of the. Of the locale seem to somehow be more in. Tuned or connected to whatever is going on. The Navajo and the Ute really, really are connected. They, like. The Navajo don't even like to talk about the place. You know, they'll even. They'll turn away and look away from it if they, you know, get close to it sometimes.
- [148:30]
A
Yeah. Mount Shasta, the tribes don't go above the tree line because that's. That's the dwelling of the sky people. You don't go there.
- [148:36]
B
So, you know, that's how do you. What do you do with stories like that? You know, I had a. I was at work one day. This is before I retired. This before I started just working from home as a consultant. I was working for a company called Radiance right after I quit the government. And I got a phone call. And this lady says. Dr. Taylor said, yeah. And she said, I'm the eldest female of such and such tribe. I don't want to say who it is because I don't want to get anybody into trouble or whatever. I don't know if you get them in trouble. They didn't give me permission to talk about it.
- [149:10]
A
Fair enough.
- [149:12]
B
But she said, and we've been debating on talking to you for a couple of years now. And we finally took a vote and decided that we needed to reach out. I said, yeah, you and about a million other people, lady. And she said, no, I really am who I say I am. So this is my name. Go on the Internet and look me up and find a phone number to contact me, and then you'll know. I said, that's fair enough. So she hung up. And I look up this tribe and I see the elders and there's this lady's name and a phone number for her for the tribal center or whatever. So I called there and said, hey, this may sound weird, but this lady says, oh. Dr. Taylor said, yeah. She said, hang on. And they transferred me. And the lady picked up the phone. It was literally was her. And I said, oh, okay, so you got my attention now. Yep. And she said, so they told us that they bring you inside the mesa all the time, but you refuse to remember it.
- [150:07]
A
Oh, it just gave me chills.
- [150:09]
B
And I said, what? What is she talking about? And I said, who is they? She said, you know who they are. I said, no, I don't know. I don't have any idea what you're talking about, lady. And she said, they told us that they are bringing you in to show you what's going on at the property at Skinwalker Ranch and that you refuse to remember it. And I said, what? You said, I can't remember it. She said, no. They said you refused to remember it, and we wanted you to know what we felt like you needed to know this. And I was like, okay, who are they? She said, the sky people. No shit. And so then I like, okay, thank you, ma'. Am. Thanks. I'll keep that under advisement. What do you do with something like that? I don't know. Well, so this is linked to something that we just talked about.
- [150:59]
A
So
- [151:02]
B
while I was working at the same place, within days of this phone call, Jay and I had hooked up with some people who had a private black ops kind of group that if we found something that was down somewhere, they were going to try to get to it before somebody else could. And so they had hired this remote viewer that she's supposed to be like, like the remote viewer presently. And, you know, Paul Smith verified it. So I'm like, okay. Paul says she's real. She's real. And so she called me and she said, Dr. Taylor, are you. Do you realize that they've taken you and you. And you don't know it? No, I'm not getting into this abduction stuff again.
- [151:50]
A
And she's after the call with it. Yeah, okay.
- [151:52]
B
And she said. And I said, what are you talking about? She said, oh, it was years ago. She said, I can see it. They're showing me now. I'm like, oh, you're talking to them now? And she said, yes. And, you know, this is one of those things. What? Remote viewing is real. And I understand the physics, the science of that, that we've measured it. We know it's real from statistical variation and stuff. But.
- [152:10]
A
Well, after the story, I want you to explain how that works.
- [152:12]
B
Okay, but, but, but when you take it this far.
- [152:17]
A
So you're saying it works, but, but you don't want any part of it.
- [152:19]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no. When you take to the point where I'm physically telepathically talking to aliens right now, that's where I'm like, well, how do you prove that? And I can't. You know, this is. Comes down to campfire stories, and that's one of the things I always try to avoid.
- [152:33]
A
Physicists don't like unfalsifiable.
- [152:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not proper falsifiable. So what do you do? So she says, yeah, they said you were young. I'm going to guess 15, 16 is what I'm seeing in the images. And. And you were in the desert and they took you and you didn't remember it. I said, lady, I've never. I live in Alabama. Everything's green as far as I can see. And I didn't. So I didn't think anything else further about it. And then we sent a team to a place in Arizona called Secret Mountain. And there's some natives there kept saying that they had seen UFOs flying into the mountain, pretty much like at Skinwalker Ranch. And they go there, and I'm looking at Some of the footage that they're showing, some of the film, video. And I'm saying, that looks familiar to me. Where is this? Where did you guys stay? And they say we stayed in a little town. There's one little town there, it's called Holbrook, Arizona. And I went Holbrook, Arizona, when I was 16.
- [153:38]
A
No way.
- [153:39]
B
My brother was in the Air Force and was stationed in Holbrook, Arizona. And I went and stayed two weeks in Arizona with my brother and his. His apartment. He stayed, if you want call it. That was like a little quadplex that 4. Four townhomes of one that were all Air Force guys living in. Up on top of a big sand dune, effectively. And the. And the base was two trailers and two radars and a chain link fence. And there was like, I think a high school. And that was it. There may have been a 711 or something there. And I stayed there for two weeks and all I did was either go and play. When they did pt, they played softball. Every day I would go play softball with them, hang out with my brother. Otherwise I'd sit and watch TV during the day or read books. That's the only time I'd ever been to a desert before I went to Utah, but I was 16 when I went there.
- [154:29]
A
Just like she said.
- [154:30]
B
Just like the lady said. And the fact that those stories came to me almost within a week of each other. That close, yes. And all this, it's one of those things that shakes you. You're like, I don't believe it. But at the same time, like,
- [154:47]
A
how could she guess that?
- [154:48]
B
Yeah, how would she guess that? That's the thing. And because I hadn't thought about that and just wiped it out of my mind about even. I didn't really thought about it much.
- [154:56]
A
And you don't remember anything happening, of course?
- [154:58]
B
No, I don't know. I don't remember anything. I don't. Being at the ranch now, weird crap happens all the time. But I. I have crazy. I had night terrors for the first three years I was there. Never slept at all.
- [155:07]
A
At the ranch?
- [155:08]
B
Yeah, at the ranch it was terrible. So I'd wake up screaming. And it was, it was, it was, it was wild. But I think my brain got numb to it after three or four years. And I. I still have them occasionally when there, but mostly I've gotten to where I can kind of sleep there. So it's, it's. It's unusual. I think it has to do with the microwaves that we keep measuring. I think it's messing up my REM sleep. But.
- [155:31]
A
Well, you said that you hooked up EEGs to some folks and saw some weird activity in the brain, right?
- [155:35]
B
Yes, we've done that many times. And in fact, we've seen what is typical fight or flight responses happening. That's obvious when you see it. But we've seen other types of influences on the brain waves. You would be like in a sensory deprivation tank instead when you're not. And so I find that really interesting. And I wonder about that because we've had people as close as you and I where somebody's pointing at something and saying, it's right there. Don't you see it? And others are like, man, we're not seeing it. Or we've had somebody. I was literally sitting at a table about just a little bigger than this. There's about six or eight of us around the table. And a guy sitting between me and one of the other guys just collapsed into seizures. And we took him to the emergency room and he had looked like it. They say it looked like he'd been exposed to microwaves and he didn't.
- [156:22]
A
He.
- [156:22]
B
His memory was basically wiped of about four hours of the day. And he had like. His eye swelled up and was like bloodshot. We've had that happen to cows.
- [156:31]
A
What happened to your finger?
- [156:33]
B
Yeah, so that happened right after. It's funny, I'd always told the guys the first few weeks I was out there that I thought they were all batshit crazy and oops. We were at Homestead too. And we're looking around. We got a ground. We got a guy pushing one of those lawnmower, looking ground penetrating radars around. And the one scientist is over there with him, and I'm over behind Homestead 2. There's this cistern behind us. So basically a water tank that they used to make, you know, in the houses. And so I'm like, well, there could be radon gas or something down in there. I want to check it. I'm going to pull this lid back and hold my gamma ray detector down there. And so I pulled on the thing. It was pretty heavy. And the camera guy was standing like right over me, looking down as I was holding my gamma ray detector over the hole. And I was sitting in such a way, like one knee on the ground and one hand on one knee. And suddenly my gamma ray detector goes off. Nobody. There's all. There's people around me. And as soon as my gamma ray detector went off, all the cameras and all the sound equipment and all the cell phones turned themselves off. Now, one Android phone was. Of all the crew was working, and the director of photography was sharp enough, he grabbed it, started filming with that and told everybody else to be working on the dang cameras.
- [157:58]
A
So they went down and wouldn't come
- [158:00]
B
back up, Would not come back up. Like something fried them. Like they burn out all the. All the batteries immediately went dead. And so they're changing batteries, swapping out units, little doohickeys that have the transmitters on there. They're changing all those things out and frantic, you know, trying to get the cameras up and running. And while the director of photography is filming with the one Android that was working. And so I'm sitting here looking at my gamma ray detector and the dose rate is pretty high and I'm doing numbers in my head and I'm. And I'm thinking it's like that. It's like that scene in Fat Man, Little Boy where John Cusack's character is calculating that he's about to die. That's what I'm doing in my head. I'm going to. And one of the other physicists coming over says. He looks at and says, that's a pretty big dose, man. That's a big dose. And I'm like, that's. That's a bigger dose than. Than ain't gonna kill me, but it ain't a good dose. Said, so I need. Then they got about this time.
- [158:55]
A
So how about how many X rays worth of.
- [158:58]
B
Well, I'll get to that. Okay. Okay. So we're sitting here on the. They've got cameras on tailgate of the truck. They're. They're trying to figure them out. And they get one working and camera guys got one up finally. And so the director starts asking me questions. What's going on? What's happening? I said, well, here's what we're going to do. I want you to get everybody here and get them back to the command center. I'm going to go. I'm going to take all my clothes off outside my trailer, and then I'm going to take a shower. And while I'm doing that, I want you to get someone and go to the beer store and come back with a case of beer. And they start laughing. I said, no, I'm serious. I got to start urinating as soon as possible. This is standard. A buddy of mine was a sub dude. Actually his handle is sub dude. And he told. We've talked about. I've written a bunch of science fiction stories where people got exposed or whatever, and I've walked through what the protocol is that the Navy uses on the subs. And that's the first thing they have them do, is sit down and start drinking diuretics, right? And I'm like, well, you know, they could go the pharmacy and get diuretic, but what fun is that, right?
- [159:57]
A
Coors Light.
- [159:58]
B
Yeah. So I had to go get me a case of Coors Light. And I said, so I'm gonna set out, and then I'm gonna start drinking that because I've got to start, you know, peeing as soon as possible. And he said, well, what about iodine? So it was too late for that. I already been exposed.
- [160:10]
A
Right.
- [160:10]
B
I needed that beforehand. And so. And they're like, you're being. You're being serious now? I said, yes, I'm being serious. And so we go back, and the guy, one of the other physicists that was there that year, he also had a medical physics degree, and he ran chemotherapy and radiation therapy treatments at a hospital. And he and I were sitting there doing numbers, and I've got my doctor, my general practitioner on my phone. I'm texting him, and he's texting an oncologist, and we're all doing math in her over the phone, in our heads and everything. And he says, dude, you just had your life's time of CAT scans in about 30 seconds. And. And. And it wasn't. And my. It's. What's really weird is everybody around me, none of them there. No. No dose rate, no gamma ray detectors went off. Just mine. And they were as close to one guy, was as close as me. And you are now.
- [160:59]
A
Was it from the hole?
- [161:01]
B
Don't. Don't know where it came from. But. But going back that. We had a Navy team come in the next day, contractor come in next day and check, and there was nothing anywhere. And so after overnight, I drink all the beer. I get up next morning, and when I urinate, it's the color of this laptop right here. It's like.
- [161:20]
A
It's like.
- [161:20]
B
It's like black coffee.
- [161:22]
A
Oh, no.
- [161:23]
B
And I text my GP again, and he says, that's probably dead cells that you're passing.
- [161:30]
A
You didn't tell your wife any of this, did you?
- [161:32]
B
No. And then. So then I started getting flu, like, symptoms, which is all classic symptoms, right? And that lasted for a good 36 hours. And I was like, well, I'm going to go home and spend the weekend at home and try to recuperate and see how I feel. And I get to Salt Lake City Airport, and I'm Sitting there. And I order a beer and some chicken wings at whatever restaurant it was. And the waiter looks at me, says, did you get in a fight? And I said, what are you talking about? And he said, well, what's that on your head? I'm like, what's on my head? And I noticed, and I got to think about it. I'd been scratching my knee, and the top of my foot was burning. And then I looked at my hand, and there was a burn mark on my hand right here. And so I get my phone, I turn around and look, and I had a big burn mark right here. And. And so the way I was sitting, looking over, you could draw a straight line through my head, through my hand, through my knee, and through my foot to where those burn marks were. And when I drew the line upwards, it would have gone right through the camera guy that was looking over my shoulder. This is like a death ray that don't exist.
- [162:39]
A
That does not exist.
- [162:41]
B
So I got better. Everything was fine. And I had various tests done to make sure there's not any, like, leukemia markers or anything, you know.
- [162:52]
A
Was it a radiation burn?
- [162:54]
B
Well, according to two different doctors, it appeared to be effects of radiation exposure. One other doctor said he didn't know what the hell it was. And then when my finger started hurting, it started expanding like this, growing outward. And I'm like, what in the crap is that? I'm too old for arthritis. I mean, too young for arthritis. And I don't know what's going on. And so I called Kit Green and he said, yep, that sounds like classical radiation exposure. Here's what I want you to do. He hooked me up with an orthopedist, a surgeon. They went in, X rayed it and everything, and they set me up for surgery. And so they opened that up, and there were two osteophytes. They're like, basically bone growth growing out. And from the X ray, I could calculate their sizes, and they were the exact right size to be microwave antennas. Is that not crazy?
- [163:51]
A
It's crazy.
- [163:52]
B
That is crazy. Well, they shaved them off and then sewed me back up, and they sent the pieces off for analysis. There was no trace of any pathogen at all. No pathogen. And so Kit said, that's typical of radiation exposure. So that's not a virus or arthritis or anything else that could cause that. No bacterial infection. If it's. And it comes back pathogen clear, then it's most likely that it was radiation exposure. And so that was that fun adventure. And what it was, who knows? I don't know, but, but so when I came out of the going back to. When I walked back out of the the from behind there and was sitting on that tailgate, my friend Dragon and other guys come down and they look at me, so what's going on, dude? And look at him said, well, I guess I'm finally batshit crazy. And that's when I really, that day I really started understanding that this was not made up stuff. It's something to this property.
- [164:51]
A
But you keep going back.
- [164:53]
B
Well, so there's a reason I keep going back. I hope to someday dig out of the ranch a green lantern ring. But seriously, what if there's something there? What if. You know, I firmly believe that fortune favors the bold. And the fortune might be to learn something that we don't know. I've already learned a lot of things, made myself get so much better at physics and engineering just from being out there.
- [165:21]
A
Sure.
- [165:22]
B
But what if we pull something out of the mesa that is not of this world? Or maybe it's an ancient artifact from an ancient civilization or who knows what. But what if there's something there? What if it's even some new mother nature phenomena that we we've never seen before? Either way, it would be worth it. It's worth uncovering whatever that is.
- [165:45]
A
I'm glad you're out there. I wouldn't go. So you and Jay are in a band called Hitchhiker.
- [165:50]
B
Oh, yeah. Hitchhiker effect.
- [165:52]
A
Have you experienced hitchhiker effect?
- [165:54]
B
Yes, I have and I have have documentation of it now Jay, Jay has experienced it a lot, but his is a lot worse than mine. But what happened? I'll let him talk about that for me. So the really weird thing, and it's pretty, it's funny, I had some debunkers try to, I don't know, this is part I think why they think I believe in paranormal. But I'm not saying nothing, anything's paranormal. So we have laying hens chickens at my house. I've got, you know, 17 acres in Alabama. It's a middle wilderness, you know, green Alabama the beautiful. Right. And so at the time I had a coupe that I had rigged an automatic door with a computer to run it. It had a sensor on it that 30 minutes after sun up it would open and 30 minutes after sundown it would close to keep, you know, raccoons and foxes out of the hen house. And it ran on basically like a little Arduino board. I'm sure there's people makers out there know exactly what I'm talking About and it had an actuator that would just open and close just a little metal aluminum plate door. And it had an electrical eye that went across the door. So if there was a chicken standing in it, it would shut it off. Right. And the door actually went like.
- [167:15]
A
Right.
- [167:16]
B
It literally takes a minute for the thing to close. Right, Right. So there's no way something's going to stand there and get caught in it. So I'm at work and my wife calls me and says, hey, there's a hen that's caught in the door. Could you come home and say. She didn't want to deal with it. So I went home and there's basically a guillotined this poor chicken. And I'm like, how the hell could that happen?
- [167:42]
A
Chicken was dead.
- [167:43]
B
It was cut in half.
- [167:44]
A
Cut in half?
- [167:45]
B
Yeah. I, it's so weird of a nitpick. I said, I said something like this at a con. It was cut in half. One of the idiot, you know, Twitterverse people, you know, say, well, he's lying about that because it didn't. You can look at the. Clearly look at the picture. And it's head still there. Well, the guillotine is closed, the doors closed, the heads hanging on this side and the other part of the body's on the other side. I mean, that's how toxic the people are out there about this stuff. Right. But, but warriors we don't know. Right. Keyboard war. Exactly. Right. They got Cheeto stains on their fingers.
- [168:16]
A
So anyway, did that motor have enough torque to do that?
- [168:21]
B
It had enough torque. So it could, it could have. But the chicken would have to stay there.
- [168:26]
A
Right. It's not going to stay there.
- [168:29]
B
So, so I get the board and I look at it and it, it's got all the data recorded and it happened at exactly. It was, it was 2. It was 1:33 Alabama time. Right. If I remember the time I could have. Could be remembered. But it was around that. Right. And, and so I look at what happened and it looked like something overloaded the battery. It got like supercharged and then the, the eye was triggered for safety and, and it didn't shut off the thing and it burned out the main computer drive. And so it's like something emp the chicken house and, and convinced the chicken at 1:33 in the morning when it's
- [169:20]
A
supposed to be closed.
- [169:21]
B
Well, when it's supposed to be closed. Right. So it opened it, then closed it.
- [169:24]
A
Yeah.
- [169:25]
B
But again, if you ever, if you've ever had chickens, once they get on a roost they don't move. There could be a snake killing them.
- [169:33]
A
Right.
- [169:33]
B
They're going to sit there until the sun comes up. So something made this chicken get up in the middle of the night and go let the door open, go stand in the doorway and then let the doorway kill it.
- [169:42]
A
Don't eat that chicken.
- [169:43]
B
Yeah, well, I did. Well, yeah, I didn't. But so I'm like. So I called Eric Bard, the principal investigator at the ranch and I said Eric, did anything happen last night at the ranch? He said I don't know man. I was off with a, on a date with my wife and I was driving back from Vernal, which is like 40 minute, 30 minute drive or something to the ranch. I was driving back and that damn Jeep that we have out there, it just, it just everything on the dashboard lit up and every instrument in it blew up. And I was standing on side of the road what time? And that's exactly what the next question was. And he said, and he said it was 12:30 something and they're on mountain time, which is exactly the same time. So there were simultaneous events that happened. That fried electromagnetic EMP type effect that fried his jeep and fried my chicken coop. And I noticed that the WI FI in the house had also reset itself at that time. It did, yeah. When I went back and looked through the logs. So there was an EMP type effect
- [170:48]
A
that's 2 and 5 megahertz.
- [170:50]
B
Yeah, that's right. And powerful enough that it, that it blew out my Arduino board. Right. And messed with the chicken. What did it do to the chicken? I don't understand that one at all. So that is one of the strangest, weirdest things that happened. I can't explain it. I'd had chickens for before that and after that. Never, never seen anything like that. I've had other events very similar like that that things just keep blowing up like that, like they're being fried or whatever. So I've safeguarded everything, I hope, knock on wood. Now that I've said it'll probably happen as soon as I get home, you know, happen. But that kind of stuff happens a lot.
- [171:31]
A
Do you think that it doesn't want you there or is it just mischief?
- [171:35]
B
You know, the, the previous owners of the property, the farmers that live there said they believe it was some kind of trickster. Yeah, right. To what end? Yeah, you know, but I've always said that we may never understand alien motivations because it's just that alien and we may never, we might be invaded and never know why. Right. And whatever's going on here could have some motivation that doesn't make any sense to us.
- [172:03]
A
That's true.
- [172:03]
B
It could be AI motivation. We may never understand what AI's motivation is. Right. Heck, I've got a teenager. I don't know what his motivations are. Right. So it's. It's one of those things that. But why. Right. And that's one of the reasons that I keep going back is I do fear that could I be bringing it back with me. A lot of people have had some detrimental things that have been there, and they'll never get anywhere near the place again.
- [172:30]
A
Oh, Colonel Alexander said his wife was not pleased.
- [172:34]
B
Yeah. There we. Well, we had one guy, like I said, that he. He told us flat out, and he was actually one of the Nimitz Group guys that we had to visit us.
- [172:43]
A
Yeah.
- [172:44]
B
And he came out and he was affected so much that he told us he would never, ever come back again.
- [172:50]
A
Did he say what happened to him?
- [172:51]
B
We watched it. We got it on. He started having seizures on the ground.
- [172:54]
A
Oh, my God.
- [172:55]
B
We went and put him in a Faraday cage, and it helped a little bit, but we eventually evacuated him and sent him to emergency room.
- [173:02]
A
It's not funny.
- [173:03]
B
No, it's not. Well, it's one of the. It's not funny how it's funny. Yeah, it's. It's unbelievable is what it is. That's why I tell you. That's why I think people. I can understand people think we're making it up because it's bizarre.
- [173:17]
A
I haven't watched the show because I thought y' all were making it up.
- [173:20]
B
Yeah, we're not. There's not a single thing that we're making. Everything is as we're seeing it now. Like I said, we may get some things wrong. And we always come back, say, oh, well, we thought this was something, but it was just a bug or it was a, you know, snow goose or whatever. But we. We always are honest about those things. And that's the thing that I want, you know, to make clear, is if we find something. This is disclosure, man. Unless somebody comes and shuts us down in a way that we can't get it out, it's getting out.
- [173:49]
A
How far back does the weird stuff go?
- [173:52]
B
Well, the one. So every owner that's been there said something about it, you know, there. And like I said, there's a petroglyph on the property that's a thousand years old.
- [174:01]
A
Yeah.
- [174:01]
B
That's a warning that evil is beyond this thing. And they Even show a portal in the sky. They do, yeah.
- [174:08]
A
No, that's where your balloon went.
- [174:10]
B
Maybe. Well, exactly where they draw it. So there's a drawing of the mesa and then there's the star patterns. And exactly where this little spot is, is right where the balloon disappeared. That's interesting that you bring that up. That's a good analysis.
- [174:24]
A
Where did the remote viewer. Did she give you any more details when you were 16, where you went, what you saw, what happened?
- [174:31]
B
She said that they just. Just took me and tried to show me something, but I didn't. I wouldn't remember it.
- [174:38]
A
And you still won't.
- [174:39]
B
And I still won't, apparently, because I don't.
- [174:41]
A
What? Do you believe her?
- [174:43]
B
No.
- [174:43]
A
Okay.
- [174:44]
B
I don't know what to think about. Why would. Why would. Why is whatever it is that she can do trigger her. Her brain to. To see something fantastical? You know that like that's that, like that, right? I mean, I would understand if. If it was just someone that was trying to get like publicity, like spoon bending huckster or something.
- [175:11]
A
Yeah.
- [175:12]
B
And I don't mean all spoon benders are hucksters. I just mean like some, you know, a rain. A rain con man. You know, a rainmaker. The stubble bind snake oil salesman.
- [175:23]
A
Right?
- [175:23]
B
Yeah, but she's not that because she's not getting paid for that. She finds like kidnapped children and things like that and works with police.
- [175:32]
A
She's also seeing through time.
- [175:34]
B
Yeah. And she's seeing that. She's saying that they were showing her this and that they were telling her where to go to send the team to get a UFO and all these kinds of things. We thought we had one at one point, but they kept giving us. Oh well, the rebels there won't let us in the property or they. They need a million dollars before they'll do the other. Whatever. And we're like, yeah, that sounds right. They sent us video and it looked like they'd built some kind of prop. You know, it was one of those things. So we've. I've never had anything like that pan out. Right, but now the remote viewing part.
- [176:12]
A
Yeah. You said you could explain the mechanism.
- [176:14]
B
Well, I have a hypothesis. Think about it. Like, for those who aren't familiar with remote viewing, it's been used officially since the seventies in the Stargate program. Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and those guys did a detailed scientific evaluation of it and showed that it was statistically better than guessing.
- [176:38]
A
Pat Price was a miracle.
- [176:40]
B
Pat Price was apparently the. Him and Joe McMonagle and Ingo Swan were the. They were the best. Right. And McMonagle still says stuff to Jay. Jay talks to him, you know. But. But how would something like that work? Well, if you look at how they do it. So we had Paul Smith. We've had remote viewers come out to the property and do. They've told us some fantastic, amazing things and we've discovered. We found exactly what they said, right where they said it was going to be or whatever.
- [177:09]
A
Like what?
- [177:10]
B
Well, so let me give you one example, so they can't spoil it.
- [177:15]
A
Okay.
- [177:17]
B
And. But the thing about. I was about to say, though, is that the network doesn't believe that. The public believes it. So they won't let us. They don't want us to air it.
- [177:24]
A
Why?
- [177:25]
B
They don't believe in remote viewing. The network, for some reason, doesn't. Doesn't like remote viewing, I don't think. Okay, which. But to me, CIA didn't mind it. That's what I thought. That's why I keep telling them. They said, well, and they also don't. I don't think they. I don't think they grasp it or get it or something, you know, And I've tried to explain it, but it is a hard concept for a lot of people to accept because it seems like magic. Well, the way it works. So we thought, we're going to trip Paul Smith up. We took the date that I was exposed to radiation and wrote it down and put it in an envelope, put a serial number on that envelope, put the envelope in a drawer and then told Paul the serial number. Then he took that serial number and gave it through a friend without telling him where it came from to two of his students that he said were his prize students. Different, different states. You know, one I think was New York. One was out Midwest somewhere. And they. They both came back with drawings. And Paul did a drawing himself. And in the drawing that they drew was a Feynman diagram for pair production of an electron positron collision. What? I kid you not. All right, so you say, well, what does that mean? Well, so after I was exposed to radiation, we had this Navy contractor team come out and they put a radiation spectrum analyzer in that exact spot where I was exposed to radiation. They found a spectrum of the radiation I was exposed to, and there was a peak that occurred over a week. The most number of hits they got was at 511 kev. 511 kev is the gamma ray that is created when an electron, anti electron or positron collide with each other. And they create 511kev gamma rays.
- [179:12]
A
That's what they found. That's the annihilation number.
- [179:14]
B
That's the annihilation number.
- [179:15]
A
They found that.
- [179:17]
B
That's what they found there behind. Why. Well where did they, where did they go to the positron electron come from?
- [179:23]
A
Right?
- [179:23]
B
And where did, why have we got a pair paranilation gamma rays? You know what I'm talking about here is you know how in Star Trek they used a matter antimatter chamber to create the warp energy? Well, we got a matter, any matter collision happening on the property at Skinwalker Ranch for no dang reason. Well, but these remote viewers drew the date that we told them and the GPS coordinates and all they saw was a serial number. They didn't know anything where it came from and know anybody. But they drew the Feynman diagram for electron positron collision and the gamma rays.
- [179:59]
A
There's no way they knew about antimatter. There's no way.
- [180:01]
B
No. Well, one of them asking, one of them was an art major, right? And one of them, one of them was like a data processor or something, but they were taking, you know, remote viewing school from Paul.
- [180:12]
A
When you saw that diagram, did you know what it was?
- [180:14]
B
As soon as I saw it, I said, I looked at, said that's a Feynman diagram. And then the other physicist looked at, said he turned it around, you're right, that is a Feynman diagram. And we're like, what the hell? And when I saw that, I was like, I, you're not, you're not going to convince me anymore that remote viewing is, is, is made up this magic or whatever, it's, it's, it's a real phenomenon. Now what is it and how does it work? Well, what did he do? We took a piece of data and we gave it an address and it stored away on the memory stack somewhere. And then we gave the memory stack location to these people and all they did was they know how to look at the memory stack and read what's stored there.
- [181:04]
A
That's a great way to describe it.
- [181:07]
B
And that is another piece of simulation hypothesis or some sort of mechanism that the universe has created through software or a matrix like environment. That would suggest that these people have understood, they now understand how to read certain locations in the memory stack.
- [181:29]
A
I hadn't considered that, but that makes a lot of sense. They can see the code.
- [181:33]
B
Yeah.
- [181:34]
A
They can access the memory and you know where.
- [181:36]
B
And I also, that also explains quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglement is nothing more than the inventory. So think about Minecraft Steve, right? He mines a diamond over here at position X, Y, Z and T. Time one, he picks the diamond up, he plops it into his inventory. It's up there in some location and that you can pick up the inventory. It's in this block right here.
- [182:00]
A
Yep.
- [182:00]
B
Right. Then he walks around the world map and goes to some other position and time and he reaches up into his inventory and magically plops it down and there it is. Where did that. Where was it all that time? You say what was in his inventory? What is his inventory? It's the memory.
- [182:15]
A
It's the memory.
- [182:16]
B
And what I just explained to you is how quantum teleport, how teleportation works. Quantum teleportation. If you draw a diagram for how Minecraft Steve moves items with his inventory, it looks exactly like quantum teleportation. Moving information from point A to point B.
- [182:33]
A
Doesn't it move it instantly?
- [182:35]
B
It moves it non locally.
- [182:36]
A
Non locally.
- [182:37]
B
You still have to send a classical signal to tell them how to make the measurements and things. And where is the non? That's the big thing is nobody understands where the non local place is. No, it's the memory stack, right?
- [182:49]
A
It's everywhere.
- [182:49]
B
It's everywhere. It's the Akashic record.
- [182:52]
A
That's right.
- [182:53]
B
Where is that stored?
- [182:54]
A
It's everywhere. Yeah, it's like the morphic field, morphic resonance. Right.
- [182:59]
B
So whatever the holographic universe that we are living in, that information, the information universe, whatever it is, that information is stored everywhere, somewhere, somehow. And so these people that have. They didn't find a back door. They just understood how to read what's there.
- [183:19]
A
Doesn't that make the secret work as well?
- [183:21]
B
Absolutely. I think it's all the same thing. I think they're all manifestations of the same concept.
- [183:25]
A
Monroe Institute.
- [183:26]
B
Yep, all of it.
- [183:27]
A
All of it makes sense to me too. Let's talk about Jay Stratton for a second. He's got a book coming out.
- [183:36]
B
Yeah.
- [183:36]
A
And he recently said that about disclosure like it's already happened, but there's a lot more coming. Do you know what he means?
- [183:43]
B
Well, Jay and I talk all the time. I mean, we're in a band together.
- [183:47]
A
Good guitar player.
- [183:48]
B
Yeah, he's a good guitar player. Jay's. Jay's. Jay's pretty. Jay is awesome, man. He's. He's an amazing person.
- [183:53]
A
And you sing?
- [183:54]
B
Yeah, I play. I play on some of the songs. I write some of the songs, but I am. I'm the lead vocalist.
- [184:02]
A
All right, so that's hitchhiker on Spotify this week, right?
- [184:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, man. Spotify is hitchhiker effect.
- [184:06]
A
Hitchhiker effect.
- [184:07]
B
Okay. So yeah, Jay was. So for people who don't know who Jay Stratton is, Jay Stratton was the director of the UAP task force. But before that, he and Jim Lacatsky Dr. McCaskey were the two people working for DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency at the time. And they had noticed a bunch of people reporting weird things, pilots and so on. And they thought, well, somebody should be looking into this. And no, I don't think anybody is. And so they started investigating and they came up with the idea to create the. Create all SAP, which is like Advanced weapons something Systems program. I don't know what all it stands for. And that was actually a contract, it was a proposal. And they let out a call for proposals that any contractors could bid on that, that could get security clearances to bid on to investigate what they were calling range Fowlers at the time. Range Fowler would be. They had a test range, they were doing experience, like Top Gun kind of stuff. And pilots would see something that shouldn't be there. So it's not safe. So they needed to find out what they were. Was it enemy drones? What was it? And Bigelow Airspace was the only company that, that bid on the proposal. Now, let me. If you've been in, if you've been in the defense intelligence industry at all, you know that any opportunity that someone in the government releases to give you Money, there are 30 companies that go after it.
- [185:46]
A
Yep.
- [185:47]
B
So why did nobody respond to this except for Bigelow Airspace?
- [185:51]
A
And that was endorsed by Harry Reid at the time.
- [185:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, Harry. And so what happened? Lekatsky and Jay went to Harry Reid and Inouye. And there was one other senator that was a. He was a Republican. I can't remember his name, but there were three of them. They were. So somehow they, they briefed them and they were like, well, we could put in a plus up on the next bill to get you some seed money to get started on this and then you guys can go through the standard channels to start a program. Right. And that's. There's nothing odd about the day, I'm telling you. That's how everything works in government programs. Yep. Every time, every. I mean, it's unusual if it happens a different way. And so they are set, they're getting going. And Bigelow had an interest already in Skinwalker Ranch. He had already bought the place and it had been funding the Neds Guys, was it National Institute for Discovery Science or something like that to go out? That was Eric, Eric Davis and Hal put off to, to go out there and kill her to investigate for whatever the weird stuff was. And I think Bigelow was more interested in the, in the, what you would call paranormal things, supernatural or whatever. I think because there was, there was a death or something in his family that he was, he was really affected by and he was wanting maybe try to do an reach out to the afterlife or something.
- [187:15]
A
He's into a lot of near death experience and after death experience.
- [187:19]
B
Yeah. So I think that was what was driving him more.
- [187:22]
A
Yes.
- [187:22]
B
But something had happened on Skinwalker Ranch that led bigelow to tell McCaskey and Jay Stratton that if you want to see a nuts and bolts spacecraft ufo, you need to go to Skinwalker Ranch. And Jay tells that story like, I mean almost word for word like that. Bigelow told them if you want to see a ufo, you got to go to Skinwalker Ranch. And so Jay said, okay. So him and McCaskey, you know, packed up and went Skinwalker Ranch. And it was, Jay said it was like the first week he was there, he saw what he calls a dart. Triangular shaped craft that flew over the property, I think. But, but, but worse, they had an event happen in what we now call Jay's Tree, which is, it turns out is right. I mean we put, we put post out to mark where the terrestrial laser scanner said this bubble phenomenon is. And Jay's tree is right by where we put post number five. And so they, they were walking and as they got closer and closer to this tree, all of them were, were overcome with fear and couldn't walk any further and turned around and left and, and it's right at that, I mean it's literally right where the terrestrial laser scanner tells us the edge of this bubble.
- [188:39]
A
Is, is it a hard edge or is it kind of fade off?
- [188:41]
B
Well, so what the drones told us this year in experiment was that it's potentially at least a 5 gigahertz, 120 foot thick.
- [188:50]
A
Wow.
- [188:51]
B
I know, right? And you can hear it on AM if you tune your car to a station because it cuts right across the driveway as you come in. You can hear it as you drive the car through the radio crackle.
- [189:03]
A
Oh my goodness.
- [189:04]
B
And it could be placebo effect. But the distance from my trailer to the gate is in back is a one mile run. And I'll often do a one mile run in the morning or whatever and I run right through the bubble out and in back and. And I swear I feel sinus pressure every time when I go through there. But it could be purely placebo. Right. I'm too frontloaded to. To believe myself on that one or to trust that measurement. So Anyway, Jay and McCaskey continued with the offset program until such time as someone in the Pentagon thought they were looking for ooga booga stuff at Skinwalker Ranch and went and had the program funds killed. Didn't have the program killed, they just pulled the funds, which kills a program. Yeah, that's how you do it. And even though Harry Reid and Harry Reid couldn't fight it, apparently, you know, but. And that's why I'm convinced if Bigelow had more, I wouldn't give it to the government either, because they paid him half of what they told him is gonna pay him. I'd been giving the government the finger, basically. Right. So. But I don't believe that he's got something. Squirrel. He's got a UFO squirreled away. And when he talked. When we've talked to him, he said, no, I never. We never dug up a ufo. We never saw anything like that. You know, I don't think he does. No, I'm convinced he. I'm convinced that he doesn't. And I believe that he and Jay have such a rapport that he would have told Jay that if he did. And now they did have a lot of sightings, and we do have. He did give us that data of, like, dates and times and descriptions of the experiences and so on and nuts and bolts.
- [190:42]
A
Sightings.
- [190:43]
B
Well, they were things in the sky, you know, nothing landed and came out and said, take them to your leader.
- [190:46]
A
But not an orb.
- [190:47]
B
I think they were mostly like, Orb, like. Yeah.
- [190:51]
A
It's interesting that you said Inouye because remember his famous speech about there's a cabal with its own air force, its own military that answers to no law? Is he talking about, like, the Collins Group, I wonder.
- [191:05]
B
I've thought that too. And so where is this Air Force? Where is this? Where are these people and how are they hiding it in plain sight from us, Right? To me, that's fascinating, but it sounds a lot like a legacy program that's not being brought into the open.
- [191:23]
A
Why did Ronald Reagan talk about a space force that there's 3,000 people on? Crap. Remember that weird slip?
- [191:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what you. What is all the stuff that's in the. Was it the Snowden leaks and the WikiLeaks and all that different stuff and the Gary The British guy, Gary McKinnon. Yeah, him. You know, the files he found. What is all that? Right. You know, it's got names of ships and manifests and all that.
- [191:54]
A
Yeah, officers.
- [191:56]
B
And they weren't Navy ships that existed. So what were they?
- [192:00]
A
I love the story, but it's just. How do you launch stuff without anybody knowing? How do you keep that kind of secret? It seems like impossible to me.
- [192:07]
B
Well, is it? If we launched a rocket right now out of Vandenberg, what would you think about it? Satellite going to the satellite going up.
- [192:17]
A
Yeah.
- [192:18]
B
If we launched something out of the Cape or out of. Out at Texas at the new spaceports out there. Elon doing something else, right? No, I don't think anything about it. And for years they were launching top secret satellites on, you know, Titans and stuff out of Vandenberg and about a Kodiak and wherever else. So why we never thought anything about it? Who knows what they put up?
- [192:41]
A
Could there be a shipyard up there?
- [192:43]
B
I think, I think now you couldn't hide it as easily because there's enough commercial radars and all that. And just like with the whole moon thing, Elon's going whether we want him to or not.
- [192:54]
A
Yeah.
- [192:55]
B
So he's going to know if he don't already. Right. And I, and I think that's. That, that's one of the things that we'll, we'll find out very soon. I think disclosure has to happen simply because they can't keep up with the, the technology progression, whoever they are. You know, sooner or later regular civilians are going to be able to go and hike on the moon.
- [193:18]
A
Yeah, that's coming soon. That's probably in our lifetime, I think
- [193:20]
B
that is in our lifetimes. So I'm, I'm really hopeful that we'll get to the bottom of some of these things, you know, and then hacklefish will be able to go and see that Apollo 11 did actually happen. And there, there are remnants of us landing on the moon and, and we walked on the moon in 1969 and early 70s.
- [193:40]
A
You don't like that conspiracy theory?
- [193:42]
B
Well, my dad was part of building the thing.
- [193:45]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [193:46]
B
And I've been part of experiments where we bounced lasers off of systems that they left there on the moon.
- [193:51]
A
That's true. You can see the tracks.
- [193:54]
B
There's something there. I mean, do you think there's something
- [193:57]
A
weird on the other side? Do you believe Karl Wolf's story and all that?
- [194:02]
B
Well, I don't know what to think about that. I've heard the Airbrushed photos, things. And, you know, I'm one of the guys who found one of the three lights in one of the Apollo 17 limb photos that was just released from the government. I'm the guy who found that.
- [194:19]
A
I didn't know that.
- [194:21]
B
And we don't know what that is. And I went to the limb in Huntsville and crawled all around that thing and looked at, Tried to figure out if there's a way that this external camera was seeing blue lights somehow on. And the official debunking is, oh, well, the actual film had holes in it. And when they scanned it, blue lights came through the holes. And I'm like, well, I looked at hundreds of canisters, and if that were the case, all those films would have holes in it like that. And this was the only one. And I had an AI run it, and it found three others in the photo.
- [194:53]
A
There are blue lights on the moon. That's a fact.
- [194:55]
B
Well, there was a triangle with three blue light.
- [194:58]
A
It was a triangle.
- [194:59]
B
It was a black triangle with. Perfect. With. With the apex lights. Typical from the stories. Right.
- [195:05]
A
Could you get a sense of how big it was?
- [195:07]
B
No way of knowing how far away it was. Right, right. Because it's just one camera.
- [195:10]
A
I'm trying to match it to what you saw over the ranch.
- [195:14]
B
Yeah. No way to tell. No way to tell. Right. But this is in the NASA archives. Anybody can go look for it and find it. I can even tell you what if. Unless they've changed the archive, I'll tell you exactly which canister it was in. And we presented this to the White House. We presented it to the appropriate committees in Congress, to NASA. NASA said, yes, this is real. It is our image. It is there. We don't know what that is either. Then half the people in the room immediately started trying to say, oh, maybe it's meteorites coming in. Perfect triangle, all this. And then the other half is like, we need to look. We don't know what that is. And so my thoughts are that if I. What I was doing wasn't looking for UFOs. I was working on a project where my. My second PhD was using craters on the moon as dishes for large, very large communications antennas. That's fast, because a meteor crater is already parabolic by physics.
- [196:12]
A
Sure.
- [196:13]
B
And the lunar regolith is 11% reflective in the microwaves and. And an RF. And so I was calculating using some of these 50 kilometer wide, you know, craters as antennas. And so I was looking for better pictures to see if I could figure out how smooth it was so I could calculate the error that would be put into the signal. And, and while I was looking for better pictures in the Apollo and I looked in Lunar Continuous Orbiter, all that stuff, I found this one picture in there. And I was like, what is that? That's not supposed to be there. And I call. I sent it to Jay and Jay looked at. What is that? I don't know. So I started doing analysis on it and. And I did all sorts of. To make sure, number one, it wasn't an airbrushed image. It was a real image. The. It did say this was a scan of a photo, which is what it was because it was a 35 millimeter camera on the outside of the limb. And then since NASA has taken all
- [197:11]
A
the photos and digitized them, was 17 Edgar Mitchell's mission. Because it sounds like he.
- [197:18]
B
No, that was. That was Conrad and Schmidt.
- [197:21]
A
That's right.
- [197:24]
B
So. But who knows? There may be. I haven't looked. I only looked through handfuls. But if I found an anomaly in say 100 out of a million, the odds are there's a lot more anomalies in some of those.
- [197:38]
A
I bet there are.
- [197:39]
B
Yeah.
- [197:39]
A
Before we go, you wanted to set the. You wanted to set me straight about Hal and about some of the things I got wrong.
- [197:46]
B
Oh, well. So I just wanted to set. Set you straight that none of these guys, Jay, Hal, Eric Davis, none of us. I mean, of course we'd be telling you this if we. But the Aviary. Yeah. None of. None of the ones that you're talking about in the Aviary. Except for maybe Kit, because kid often tells me stuff that he says, well, I can't tell you that. And I'm like, well, why can't you say? Well, because they can't. He's still worried about whatever programs he worked on and when. And it's not by nefarious reasons. It's from. Don't want to go to prison reason. Right. But how. Yeah, yeah, yeah. None of. None of the guys that. From that particular group have a nefarious bone in their body. Most of them are. They're extremely American, patriotic, but they also are extremely. Want to get to the bottom of whatever all this is. And I don't think other than the threat of prison. Right. Violating some NDA they signed, they would be giving us false information.
- [199:03]
A
What's your take on Richard Doty who worked with Hal and Benowitz and all that? The Condor, the Falcon?
- [199:09]
B
Richard Doty's been caught in so many misdirections that I wouldn't trust anything he says just because of that. Because even if he was doing it under orders, it's still. You don't know if he's telling you something that was under orders to be a lie or not.
- [199:24]
A
You don't.
- [199:25]
B
And so that to me is. That's like trying to study randomness to find more randomness.
- [199:30]
A
It's very frustrating.
- [199:32]
B
Yeah. So I don't, I. That's just a source that I don't even consider a source. Because of that purpose. Right. Because of that reason. Lou, I don't. Lou is. He has a different approach to the history of OS app. And a tip, a tip was never a real program. ATIP was the name they used internally. And Jay often says he wish he had never put the word thread in there because it made people think it was an alien threat or something, but it wasn't what he meant. He meant was it a threat to our airspace?
- [200:05]
A
And you know, but I've been hard on Lou. Have I been unfair?
- [200:09]
B
No. Yeah. I mean, everybody, we're grown ups, right? We're big boys and if you can't take it, you know, you should go cry to your mama or something. Right. Whatever. It's. This is a toxic universe.
- [200:20]
A
It is.
- [200:21]
B
But. But so what Lou? I can tell you what Lou did, but I, but now it's possible too, that Lou was read into some program I wasn't read into. And there's always a chance and I don't have anything bad to say about Lou. Right. But what I, what I'll tell you that I know is Lou was what he was doing whatever his day job was, and he had a program that had a type of top secret SCI caveat for it, but the program wasn't active and so there was nothing under that clearance. And Jay and Lekatsky after OS app needed a place to park classified things and they knew Lou and they called Lou and Lou said, and they said, hey, Lou, could we use your caveat to park our classified stuff in? We'll rewrite the class guide. And so, so it'll fit to yours and we'll just mark it as your classification and you monitor the security for it. And Lou. And they agreed to it. And to my knowledge, that was all that happened with atip. Right. And it wasn't like a big program. And while there was no official director, so it gets kind of in nomenclature, gets thrown around that Lou was the director of this or that now Lou was the owner of that director top secret caveat. And I don't know, I mean, to My knowledge there was anything other than, like, videos and things put in it.
- [201:47]
A
Well, big problem with Lou is the Pentagon got kind of cagey and started kind of twisting the narrative a little bit, where they're like, no, he was never the director of anything. Which is true.
- [201:57]
B
But Lou's like, they did the same thing with me. They said, well, he worked with. He was never the official chief scientist. And Jay said, never official. Well, he introduced him to the council of the White House as the chief scientist of the UAP Task force.
- [202:12]
A
But it wasn't on your business card. Whoa.
- [202:15]
B
That's another interesting point. So you know Greenwald does the Black Vault or whatever.
- [202:20]
A
Yep. John.
- [202:21]
B
So John, interestingly enough, John was a producer writer on Rocky City Rednecks.
- [202:26]
A
I didn't know that.
- [202:27]
B
So I know John. And so I've reached out to him a few times when he's gotten things wrong or whatever.
- [202:33]
A
Oh, him too.
- [202:34]
B
Yeah, him too.
- [202:35]
A
Right.
- [202:35]
B
Try to get him straight. But anyway, so John apparently did a FOIA request for any emails from me and Jay to each other. And the government's response is, there are no emails between me and Jay. Me and Jay emailed each other for years. Right. Which is the most bizarre thing to me. And some of them were like, hey, how's it going today? It's cold up here today. I hate Maryland. So something like that. And why would they not at least release one email to show him, just let him back off or whatever. But instead, all it does is fuel a conspiracy thought.
- [203:10]
A
Right? So they said, we don't have them, or did they pull that classification?
- [203:15]
B
They said they looked and didn't find any.
- [203:18]
A
I hope he appealed that.
- [203:19]
B
He did. And they basically. So every. He's been after it since like, 22, and they've been responding to him constantly. And the fight basically gave him a final don't call us anymore response. And he just posted on X a few days ago. I saw it and was like, me and Jay were looking at. Said, well, how did. We couldn't believe it. It was not that we care. I mean, right. I mean, there's nothing in the emails he's going to get other than just us talking about we're going to meet. And, well, if we talked about anything was on Tanberg or in a skiff. So, I mean, there's not gonna be anything in the emails you could get.
- [203:49]
A
And you don't violate clearance by saying, yeah, we did email.
- [203:52]
B
No, no.
- [203:52]
A
You could say that.
- [203:53]
B
Yeah. That's so weird. I don't understand. See those. There are those kinds of things that make no sense.
- [204:01]
A
This is why people get angry at a lot of you guys. And it's not really your fault.
- [204:05]
B
It's not my fault. I didn't tell them not to do it. I mean, I'm sitting here right now telling you I did email Jason and there's nothing illegal about that. There's nothing to be classified about that. I mean, I've emailed you, so. I mean, that is so just bizarre. And so who is driving that and why? I think it's just to stir the dadgum pot.
- [204:29]
A
It's just like Richard Doty just to get us fighting and distract us while Lockheed and Raytheon are doing their thing or whatever's going on.
- [204:36]
B
I think you might be right about that. And it might be somebody like a Richard Doty's in there that it's their day job just to make things look. They're playing the trickster God part.
- [204:46]
A
Yep. Is there anything you want folks to know before we say goodbye?
- [204:52]
B
Well, you know, we just finished, I think the last couple of episodes, Skinwalker Ranch Season 7 are almost done. This year we are headed back out to do season eight and hopefully even more crazy stuff will happen and we'll catch it and you'll get to see it. My. I don't know. I've lost count this time. 26. 27th Science fiction novel just hit the bookstores.
- [205:17]
A
Oh, it did.
- [205:17]
B
It's called Apogee. It is the sequel to a book called Ballistic, which my publisher said was the best book ever wrote. So we'll see. But I think you'd find it interesting. There's a lot of simulation, hypothesis, a lot of the Minecraft Vishnu stuff in it that we've talked about.
- [205:34]
A
I'll check it out. Hitchhiker Effect is on Spotify, I was
- [205:37]
B
just about to say. And so Jay Stratton and I, along with Micah Hanks and Micah's brother, Caleb Hanks, John Neeberger, Jim Kilgard and Rob Nelson. We have a band called the Hitchhiker Effect. And we play hard rock. A lot of like sort of Guns N Roses, Metallica flair with a little bit of a southern bit thrown in. You know, I can't. Can't Leave My Skinner Groots. But two singles are on Spotify now. One's called the Tether and one is called I Bet They Rock and Roll. And they're available, so hope you enjoy it. And we're going to be playing live at Phenomicon in Vernal on whenever Phenomicon is like, second week of September.
- [206:19]
A
Okay. That's worth checking out.
- [206:21]
B
Yeah. So come see us. But more than that, this has been a lot of fun. As always, it's great to speak with someone knowledgeable about all these things and realize that you're not. You're not an army of one, and you're not by yourself. And other people have been looking into it as well. And everybody else is just as frustrated and just as interested as we are. And I will tell you that we don't worry about someone coming to a podium and telling you that disclosure has happened. Right. Disclosure is happening right now around us all the time. You watch Skinwalker Ranch, you'll see we're disclosing whatever we can find so that you can see it.
- [207:00]
A
Dr. Travis Taylor. This has been a joy. I hope that you come back and
- [207:03]
B
see us anytime, man.
- [207:05]
A
Appreciate you.
- [207:05]
B
Yep.
- [207:06]
A
Bye, Everybody. That was Dr. Travis Taylor. He spent part of this conversation angry at a reporter who wrote the words his alleged education. So let's start there. He's got two PhDs, three masters. He's working on his third PhD in his 50s on theoretical physics. So that's all true. He'll also tell you the chief scientist title was never official. And that's not a thing a resume patter would volunteer here. Now, the moon photo was interesting. Travis was looking for craters smooth enough to use as a radio telescope, which is a cool idea in its own. But he found three blue lights in a triangle in an Apollo 17 frame. And the Pentagon put that frame in the UAP files that they just released in May, and they admitted nobody knows what that is. Now, what about the drilling at Skinwalker? That blew my mind, as you saw. So they're like, what did he say, 70ft? 370. What? Whatever it was, they're drilling into the mesa and they can't get through this metal. They get some shavings of it, and it looks manufactured. It's in layers, like arts parts. And then somebody jokes that the only thing missing to make this a meteorite is nickel. Well, they didn't find any nickel in the middle, but they pulled out a 1964 nickel out of the same hole. The boring explanation is the true one. Archaeologists bury a dated coin so they. The next crew knows the site's been dug. So Travis pulled every public aerial photo of the property. 1963 is there. 1969 is there. There's nothing in between. Now, I don't know what's in that mesa. I don't know what's in that hole. It sounds like a spaceship I don't know, but I want it to be something. Travis's new novel is Apogee, the sequel to Ballistic. And if you're into hard sci fi like I am, the books are really good. There's a reason they're bestsellers. His band with Jay Stratton, his Hitchhiker Effect. I haven't heard it yet. I can't vouch for it, but I'm not gonna miss it, he says. It's like Guns N Roses meets Leonard Skynyrd. I don't know what that sounds like, but I'm down to try it. Everything I mentioned is linked below. Until next time, be safe, be kind and know that you are appreciate.
- [209:25]
B
I played Polybius in Area 51 a secret code inside the Bible said I was I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music so I'm singing like I should but then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends and it never ends no, it never end. I feel the crap cat and got stuck inside nightmares home with MK Ultra of being only 2 aware did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set or were the shadow people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man I'm told and his name was cold and I can't leave I'm dancing with the fish head fish on Thursday night When they j. The truth to the night. The mothman sightings and the solar storm still come to Agatha the secret city underground mysterious number stations planet circle to cross Project Star Game and what the dark watchers found. Thursday nights with they J2 and the weapons. With all through the. Love to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel when camels love to dance when the feeling is right Always in time. This episode sponsored by Home Base Home Base Homebase is built for small businesses trying to do it all the neighborhood coffee shop, the local gym. The family run restaurant. With Homebase, you can schedule your team, track time, run payroll, and manage hiring from one easy app so you can spend less time chasing timesheets and more time running the business your customers love. More than 150,000 small businesses already use Homebase to keep their teams on track. Start free@join homebase.com Homebase built for small businesses that do it all this episode sponsored by Homebase Homebase is built for small businesses trying to do it all the neighborhood coffee shop, the local gym, the family run restaurant. With Homebase, you can schedule your team, track time, run payroll, and manage hiring from one easy app so you can spend less time chasing timesheets and more time running the business your customers love. More than 150,000 small businesses already use Homebase to keep their teams on track. Start free@join homebase.com Homebase built for small businesses that do it all.