What Science Found at the Edge of Death | The Third Man

Summary

The Why Files: Operation Podcast

Episode: "What Science Found at the Edge of Death | The Third Man"

Date: May 8, 2026
Host: A.J. Echelfish
Co-host/Sidekick: Various
Duration (content): ~00:32:00

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Overview

This episode explores the mysterious phenomenon known as "The Third Man" factor: a recurring experience reported by people in extreme survival situations. These individuals describe sensing a benign, guiding presence—sometimes even hearing a voice—that provides comfort and direction when they are on the brink of death. Blending gripping survival stories with a deep dive into neuroscience, psychology, and evolutionary theory, the episode seeks to understand what science has discovered about this phenomenon, why it occurs, and what it might reveal about the human mind.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Epic Survival Stories Featuring the 'Third Man'

[00:32 – 19:57]

• Frank Smythe (Everest, 1933) & Ernest Shackleton (Antarctica, 1915): Both explorers, in life-threatening isolation, experienced a sense of an unseen, supportive presence. Shackleton and his companions later confessed to each other they all felt like a fourth was traveling with them.

  • Shackleton's own words:

    “It seemed to me often that we were four, not three. I said nothing of it to Crean or Worsley. I could not bring myself to look behind me.” [05:27]

  • Poetic reference: T.S. Eliot immortalizes the phenomenon in "The Waste Land", asking, “Who is the third who walks always beside you?” [05:44]

• Charles Lindbergh (Transatlantic Solo Flight, 1927):

  • During 33 sleepless hours, Lindbergh was joined by “phantoms”, calm presences who advised and reassured him:

    “These phantoms speak with human voices. Friendly vapor, like shapes without substance, able to appear and disappear at will. I am flying in a region beyond the range of human experience, where time and space seemed to have altered.” [07:58]

  • Lindbergh kept the story secret until his Pulitzer-winning memoir “The Spirit of St. Louis” (1953).

• Mountaineers and Explorers (Mesner, Simpson, and Schwab):

  • Reinhold Messner (Nanga Parbat, 1970): Felt a shadowy, non-visible companion during a deadly descent:

    “Suddenly, there was a third climber with us descending on my right side. I could sense his presence.” [12:07]

  • Joe Simpson (Touching the Void, Peru, 1985): While trapped with a broken leg, a distinct voice calmly guided every move—ultimately saving his life:

    “There was this voice talking to me, and it was quite clear, you've got to do this, you've got to do that, and I do it.” [14:50]

  • Stephanie Schwab (Cave diving, Bahamas, 1997): While lost and running out of air, she heard her late husband's voice, which guided her to safety:
    • “Stephanie, stop. Wait. Calm down. You're going to be okay.” [17:14]

• Ron DeFrancisco (9/11 South Tower Survivor):

  • Encountered a guiding, urgent presence in the smoke and chaos:

    “Get up, Ron. Get up. You can do this.” [19:57]

    • “I was led to the stairs... I don't think something grabbed my hand, but I was definitely led.” [20:08]

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Scientific Explanations: How Science Tries to Explain the Third Man

[20:17 – 27:56]

The Brain-Based Theory

• Neuroscience Breakthrough (Olaf Blanke, Switzerland, 2006):

  • Experiment: By electrically stimulating the left temporoparietal junction (TPJ)—the part of the brain that combines sensory input to create a sense of self—subjects reliably sensed a “presence” behind them.

    “You're awake because the doctors need you to tell them what you feel when they touch your brain... When they send a small electrical current... a shadow appears behind you...” [21:27]

  • Robot Experiment (2014): A robot tapping experiment showed that disrupting expected sensory feedback (by delaying the touch) induced the feeling of a sentient presence for some subjects.

    “Blindfolded, volunteers stood in front of one robot and behind another... when the robots’ reactions were delayed... volunteers felt something. A presence behind them...” [23:00]

• The Skeptical/Naturalistic Explanation:

  • Under extreme conditions (fatigue, hypoxia, stress), the brain creates a double of itself—an internal voice or 'presence'—that is misattributed as external.

    “The third man is the brain talking to itself and not recognizing its own voice... Electrode on, ghost appears. Electrode off, gone.” [25:21]

Limitations of the Scientific Model

• The “third man” produced in experiments is shadowy and sometimes frightening, unlike the calming, helpful presence described by survivors:

  “Subjects described a shadow entity that made them uncomfortable, even frightened. That’s not how the third man works. He doesn’t create fear, he takes it away.” [24:45]

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Alternative and Evolutionary Theories

[25:58 – 28:25]

• Bicameral Mind Hypothesis (Julian Jaynes, 1976):

  • Ancient humans may have heard commands from the right hemisphere of their brains, interpreted as gods. Under stress, modern brains might revert to this older operating system.

    “The theory says that under extreme stress, the brain reverts to that older operating system. The command voice comes back.” [26:09]

• Open Questions about Survival Value:

  • Why would evolution select for a “helper” presence at mortal limits?
  • “If the brain makes the third man, why does it make him a savior?... Systems that are calm, specific, directional, systems that know which way to crawl, which way to walk, which way to swim in the pitch black. If the third man is a malfunction, he’s the most useful malfunction in the history of biology.” [27:15]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• A.J. Echelfish on the ineffable nature of the Third Man:

  "The survivors know what they felt. The scientists know what they can prove. And somewhere in the gap between those two things, on a mountain, in a cockpit, inside a cave, in a burning stairwell, the third man was there. And I don't need science to explain the third man. I don't care who he is. I'm just glad he's there, waiting and watching, ready to step in when you need it most." [28:25]

• Co-host/Sidekick’s comic relief:

  • On Shackleton’s desperate sled improvisation:

    “I saw MacGyver get off an idol once. All he had was a kasoo, a dental dam and an extra rigid churro.” [04:19]

  • On T.S. Eliot: “You said a nun made it. Sister Betrell is the only flying nun I know.” [06:51]

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Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Story | Key Content | |-----------|-----------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 00:32 | Intro: Everest, Third Man defined | Survival intro, leading to science and stories | | 03:20 | Shackleton’s Antarctic ordeal | Survival feat, “the fourth man” secret | | 05:27 | Shackleton, T.S. Eliot reference | “I could not bring myself to look behind me.” | | 06:49 | Lindbergh’s Atlantic phantoms | Cockpit “filled with people,” saving navigation | | 07:58 | Lindbergh’s own words/memoir | Friendly, vaporous presences | | 10:29 | Messner & Gunther – Nanga Parbat | Third man appears, can’t save everyone | | 12:16 | Reinhold Messner’s feelings | Third climber, calm presence | | 14:50 | Joe Simpson – Touching the Void | Wounded, voice guided him to survive | | 17:14 | Stephanie Schwab – Cave dive | Lost, dead husband’s calming voice | | 19:57 | Ron DeFrancisco – 9/11 escape | Guided by a presence, leads to survival | | 20:17 | John Geiger research/summary | “Hundreds of cases,” introduces science section | | 21:27 | Swiss neurosurgery experiment | TPJ stimulation induces sensed presence | | 23:00 | Robot delay/experiment | Reproducing the “presence” in the lab | | 25:19 | Science vs. survivors' experience | “He takes fear away, gives specific guidance” | | 26:09 | Bicameral mind theory | Ancient brains, voice of god hypothesis | | 27:15 | Evolutionary quandary | “Most useful malfunction in biology” | | 28:25 | Host’s conclusion/philosophy | Third man’s mystery, gratitude |

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Tone and Style

The episode masterfully blends thrilling, well-researched survival stories with accessible science. A.J. Echelfish maintains a warm, conversational style, mixing awe, humility, humor, and skepticism. The co-host’s quips provide levity amidst the intense subject matter, while the survivor accounts and literary references create emotional resonance.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

If you haven't listened, this episode will take you on a journey from icy mountains and perilous caves to hospital operating rooms and burning buildings. You will learn how—in moments when hope seems lost—a mysterious, calming presence sometimes appears, guiding people to survival. Theories abound: is it the brain’s subconscious at work, a relic of ancient mentality, or an unexplained phenomenon? Science can reproduce the effect in the lab, but survivors insist there’s more to it—a helper at the edge of death whose origin remains a profound mystery.

Most importantly, as A.J. Echelfish concludes:

“I don't care who he is. I'm just glad he's there, waiting and watching, ready to step in when you need it most.” [28:25]

Transcript

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[A.J. Echelfish]

Frank's Mife had to stop. He was 28,000ft up Everest and fading. He knew if he closed his eyes, he wouldn't open them again. Lots of climbers took their last breath right here. Some were still frozen in the ice. But his partner wasn't worried. They just needed a break and a bit of food. Frank broke a mint cake in half and held a piece out. But nobody was there. But Frank knew he wasn't alone. He experienced something. Thousands of people in danger. An unseen presence. Calm and familiar. Always there when you're about to die. Scientists call him the third Man. They even built a machine that can summon him. But what the machine creates and what survivors describe they are two very different things. You ever eat something and immediately start doing mental gymnastics to justify it? Suddenly you're breaking down macros in your head, all because you just crushed a family sized bag of chips. Solo. Most of us know what we're supposed to do. Actually sticking to it, that's the hard part. That's why there's weight loss by hims. It's designed to help you lose the weight and keep it off. Hims now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, including the Wegovy pill at its lowest price ever and the Wegovy pen. With WeGovy at Hims, you can lose up to 20% or more of your body weight. When combined with diet and exercise, it helps regulate your appetite so you eat less, making success actually feel doable. And it's the first ever and the only GLP one available in a pill for weight loss. No needles involved. Everything happens online. You connect with a licensed provider who determines if treatment is right for you. And if prescribed, your medication ships straight to your door. No insurance needed. HIMSS also gives you 247 access to your care team, along with lifestyle support, meal plans, recipes, fitness videos, even sleep content. It's not just medication. It's a full system built around you, ready to reach your goals. Visit hims.comthewifiles to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's h I m s.com thewifiles himss.com thewifiles Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk. As to get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit HIMSS.com. Ernest Shackleton's ship got crushed by Antarctic pack ice in November 1915. 27 men, three lifeboats, no ship. They camped on the ice for five months, dragging the lifeboats behind them. When the ice broke apart, they launched the boats and sailed 200 miles to the nearest land. But it was nothing more than a barren rock in the middle of nowhere. There was no hope of rescue. Nobody knew where they were. So Shackleton piled into a lifeboat with five men. They endured hurricane winds and 20 foot waves for 800 miles. But finally they reached South Georgia Island. That was the good news. The bad news, they landed on the wrong side. The whaling station that could save them was on the north coast. They were on the south. And between them was a mountain range nobody crossed. Nobody even dared to try. But Shackleton was out of options. He picked two men for the final push. Tom Crean and Frank Worsley. They carried 50ft of rope, a small ax and three days of food. No tent, no sleeping bags. No good options. If they stay, they die.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Ew. I saw MacGyver get off an idol once. All he had was a kasoo, a dental dam and an extra rigid churro.

[A.J. Echelfish]

A rigid churro?

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Well, it wouldn't work with a flaccid churro. Okay, but it's nothing to be ashamed of. It happens to everybody's churro. Once.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Once in a while, for 36 straight hours, they climbed. They navigated by the stars. When they were lucky enough to have clear sky mostly they just climbed in the dark. At one point, they got pinned. Going back meant freezing to death. Waiting meant freezing to death. So Shackleton coiled the rope beneath the three men like a sled, closed his eyes, and they pushed off. They slid 2,000ft, screaming the whole way. Then they hit a snowbank. And somehow nobody died. They finally stumbled into the whaling station filthy and frostbitten, but alive. Three men just pulled off one of the greatest survival feats in history. And each of them was hiding a secret from the others. Only later did they learn they all had the same secret. Weeks later, Shackleton admitted it. First.

[Survivor/Interviewee]

He it seemed to me often that we were four, not three. I said Nothing of it to Crean or Worsley. I could not bring myself to look behind me. I feared what I might see. Or worse, what I might not.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Worsley said the same thing. A presence just outside his field of vision, keeping pace. They never saw the figure, never heard it speak. But all three were sure someone walked with them across that mountain range. T.S. eliot wrote about it in his famous poem, the Wasteland. Who is the third who walks always beside you? When I count, there are only you and I together. I do not know whether a man or a woman. But who is that on the other side of you? That line gave the phenomenon its name. The third man. And 11 years later, Charles Lindbergh tried to cross the Atlantic alone. But he wasn't alone for long. On May 20, 1927, Charles Lindbergh climbed into a single engine plane at Roosevelt Field on Long Island. He was gonna fly Nonstop to Paris. 33 hours over the open ocean, alone. Plenty of pilots had tried, but Nun made it.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

No, you're talking about Sister Betrell.

[A.J. Echelfish]

What?

[Co-host/Sidekick]

You said a nun made it. Sister Betrell is the only flying nun I know.

[A.J. Echelfish]

No, none. As in no one.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

How dare you. Sally Field is not no one. I like her. I really like her.

[A.J. Echelfish]

The problem started before he left the ground. By the time he hit the Atlantic, he was on his second straight day without sleep. 22 hours into the flight, he felt himself slipping. As a last resort, he pointed the plane straight down and dove. And just before hitting the water, he pulled up and flew so low that waves splashed into the cockpit. Even the icy water wasn't enough. Lindbergh was gonna crash, and he knew it. Then, just before he surrendered, the cockpit filled with people. Not one presence. Many. Lindbergh called them phantoms. They sounded calm, friendly, even familiar. They pointed out a navigation problem. They helped him change course. And even though there was nothing behind his seat but fuel tanks and not enough room to stretch his legs, he could feel them, all of them, all around him. Keeping him company, keeping him awake, keeping him alive.

[Narrator/Expert]

These phantoms speak with human voices. Friendly vapor, like shapes without substance, able to appear and disappear at will. I am flying in a region beyond the range of human experience, where time and space seemed to have altered.

[A.J. Echelfish]

The phantoms stayed for hours. They were comforting. They said he was going to be all right. Then, just over the horizon, he saw white waves crashing against the green coast of Ireland. Land. Lindbergh felt a rush of adrenaline or relief, it didn't matter. Fuel levels were good, instruments were working, and the landing strip was in Sight. He was going to make it. That's when Lindbergh realized something. The voices were gone. One minute the cockpit was full of people. Then nothing. Lindbergh was alone. And after 33 hours in the air and almost 60 hours without sleep, Charles Lindbergh landed safely. He crossed the Atlantic. He made history. He became one of the most famous, admired men in the world. He published books. He gave hundreds of interviews. And through it all, he. He never mentioned the voices. Not once. But 26 years later, Charles Lindbergh took another risk. This time, he risked his reputation. In 1953, he wrote the Spirit of St. Louis. And this wasn't a story of bravery and triumph. Lindbergh wrote about his early struggles and regrets. And he wrote about that flight in 1927, when Invisible Voices saved his life. He was worried he'd be mocked for mentioning the third man. Instead, he won the Pulitzer Prize. 43 years later, on the tallest mountain wall in the world, the third man appeared again. But this time, he couldn't save everyone.

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[A.J. Echelfish]

On June 29, 1970, Reinhold Mesner and his brother Gunther reached the summit of Nanga Parbat in Pakistan, nicknamed the Killer Mountain for its long, deadly history. They should have been celebrating. They just became the first people to climb the tallest mountain wall on Earth. 1500ft of vertical rock and ice.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Here he goes.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

They shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

[A.J. Echelfish]

You done?

[Co-host/Sidekick]

I was going to the world. Punishment. Take no wife, father no children. I'd do that right now if I could. Oh, you didn't get your alimony check. I don't blame me. Blame the raven.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Climbing to the top was easy. But now Gunther was in trouble. He felt dizzy. His vision blurred. Fluid was leaking into his lungs. And he knew what this was. Altitude sickness. He didn't know how bad, but he knew he couldn't make the climb back down. So Reinhold made a call. They descend a different side of the mountain. It was a shorter climb, but that's about all they knew about the terrain. They weren't prepared to take a different way down. But this was Gunther's best chance to live. They started down slowly, but still Gunther couldn't keep up. Every time Reinhold turned to check on him, he was farther and farther behind. They were 1,000ft in the air. Reinhold started to panic. That's when he noticed the third climber. Not ahead or behind, just to his right, a few steps back, just outside his line of sight. Reinhold never saw the figure directly, but it kept pace steady and calm for hours.

[Survivor/Interviewee]

Suddenly, there was a third climber. With us descending on my right side. I could sense his presence.

[A.J. Echelfish]

But the third man couldn't save everyone. Near the bottom of the mountain, an avalanche hit. Reinhold barely survived and Gunther didn't. His remains weren't found for almost 50 years. In 1985, two British climbers, Joe Simpson and Simon Yates, were coming down the west face of Ciula Grande when Joe slipped and shattered his leg. This was a bad one. Bone was poking through the skin. And they were 20,000ft up, so there'd be no rescue. So they worked out a system. They had a 300 foot rope, one end tied around each man. Simon would lower Joe down slowly, let him get in place with his good leg and then follow down. And they did this for hours. 3,000 agonizing feet. Then a storm hit and they lost sight of each other. Simon called out, but the wind was too loud. Suddenly, Simon felt the rope snap against his ribs as it went taut. A gust knocked Joe off the mountain, so his full weight was pulling on Simon. Simon dug in as best he could, but his hands were frostbitten and he was down to one anchor. If Joe didn't grab hold soon, they'd both fall. Simon held that rope for a full hour while the storm got worse. Then he heard a dull scrape. His last anchor was starting to give. He still couldn't see Joe. He screamed. He begged. Nothing. Another gust of wind roared through and the anchor slipped again. If Simon waited any longer, they'd both die. He had only one terrible option. He cut the rope. Joe fell 100ft into the dark. Simon assumed he was dead. He should have been, but he wasn't. Joe landed on a snowbank inside the crevasse. Alive, alone in the dark, with a shattered leg. Above him, a hundred foot drop. He couldn't climb. Below him, a bottomless pit. No food, no radio, no way out. Then he heard a voice. Not his own thoughts, but another voice, clear and calm. It told him to stop looking for A way up. The way out was down. Joe couldn't see what was down there, but he went anyway. And for three days, the voice kept talking. Which direction to crawl, when to rest, when to keep moving.

[Survivor/Interviewee]

There was this voice talking to me, and it was quite clear, you've got to do this, you've got to do that, and I do it.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Joe dragged a shattered leg over boulder fields and three glaciers. He dragged himself all the way back to camp just as Simon was packing up. Simon looked like he saw a ghost. Joe said he might have been saved by one. He wrote about it in Touching the Void. He didn't believe in ghosts or God or guardian angels or any of it. But he believed that voice was real. And he knew it saved his life. Two cases. Two mountains. One presence watched a man die and couldn't stop it. Another pulled a man out of a hole in the ice. Whatever the third man is, he doesn't work the same way twice. Because 12 years later, a cave diver lost her lifeline in 100ft underwater. She had 20 minutes of air left. And the stranger who came for her wasn't invisible. She knew him. In 1997, Rob Palmer was one of the world's leading experts on blue hole diving. He'd spent years mapping underwater cave systems other divers wouldn't touch. That summer, he went on a dive in the Red Sea. And he never came back. A few weeks after Rob died, his widow got back in the water. Stephanie Schwab was a geologist. She studied the underwater caves of the Bahamas. Same territory her husband worked. She'd been in those caves dozens of times. She suited up alone and descended into a cave called Mermaid's Lair.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Mermaid's Lair? That's the club on Flamingo, right? With the 24 hour buffet?

[A.J. Echelfish]

No, it's a cave.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

What? You're telling me it's the kind of place where every night is open.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Pole night, an underwater cave.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Well, on Tuesdays.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Okay, that's enough. Cave diving works like this. You clip yourself to a guideline when you enter. The line is how you find your way out. The cave is pitch black. Visibility is measured in inches. If you lose the guideline, the cave kills you. Stephanie lost the guideline. She had a limited amount of air in her tanks. She reached into the dark and felt nothing. Her breathing picked up. And breathing hard at depth burns through air fast. Then she heard a voice.

[Rob Palmer (voice)]

Stephanie, stop. Wait. Calm down. You're going to be okay.

[A.J. Echelfish]

She knew the voice. It was Rob. She stopped and felt him right next to her, helping her breathe.

[Rob Palmer (voice)]

Honey, just Breathe. Trust me.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Okay.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Stephanie slowed her breathing. She felt her panic dissipating.

[Rob Palmer (voice)]

Good. Okay, I need you to reach about three feet above your head, slightly to your left. Don't rush. Just feel around.

[A.J. Echelfish]

She reached up and felt the guideline. It had been directly above her the whole time.

[Rob Palmer (voice)]

Good. I knew you could do it. Stay calm. You have plenty of air. You've done this a hundred times. Follow the line. Don't rush. You're going to be okay.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Stephanie followed the line back through the cave and up to open water. The moment she broke the surface, the presence was gone. She never saw her husband, but she heard him. And he saved her. And then he was gone. But the most dramatic account didn't come from a mountain or an ocean or a cave. It came from inside a burning skyscraper on a Tuesday morning in September. September 11, 2001, 9:03am the second plane hit the South Tower between the 77th and 85th floors. Ron DeFrancisco worked for Eurobrokers on the 84th floor when the plane hit. He was below the impact zone by just a few floors. The people above him were dead, or were going to be. He started down stairway A. He made it a few floors down and ran into two people coming up. They told him the stairway below was gone, consumed by fire. The smoke made the air unbreathable. The group turned around and headed for the roof, hoping for a helicopter. Ron followed them up a few floors. But then he stopped. The roof was the wrong choice. He didn't know why. He turned around and went back down into the smoke. Alone? The smoke was thick enough to blind him. A collapsed section of wall blocked the stairs. He tried to climb over it. He couldn't breathe. His lungs were burning. So he stopped. He sat down and decided this was where he was going to die. He thought about his wife, thought about his kids. And then he heard a voice.

[Sponsor Announcer 3]

Get up, Ron. Get up. You can do this.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Ron felt a physical presence next to him, but nobody was there.

[Survivor/Interviewee]

I was led to the stairs.

[Sponsor Announcer 2]

I don't think something grabbed my hand, but I was definitely led.

[A.J. Echelfish]

The presence guided him down through smoke and fire. At one point, it led him directly into the flames. Nobody saying runs toward fire, but Ron did. His hands burned, his face burned, but he made it past the impact zone. Then the voice disappeared. Ron kept going. He made it to the lobby. He ran out of the building. He was barely two blocks away when the South Tower collapsed. Ron DeFrancisco was the last person to escape the South Tower Alive. More than 600 other people in that building died that day. Everyone above the 78th floor. Everyone who headed for the roof. Ron says he wouldn't have made it without the presence he never saw, but felt. Journalist John Geiger spent five years collecting accounts like these. Climbers, sailors, soldiers. He found hundreds of cases and and published them in a book called the Third Man Factor. Shackleton in the ice, Lindbergh over the ocean. Stephanie underwater and Ron in a burning stairwell. A hundred years of stories that nobody could explain. Then, in 2006, neuroscientists in Switzerland found a way to summon the third man. All you have to do is let him open your skull and stay awake while he does it. You're 22 years old with epilepsy. You're lying on an operating table. Your skull is open. You're awake because the doctors need you to tell them what you feel when they touch your brain. This is so they know where to cut off by. An inch here or a centimeter there. You could lose your ability to speak. You could go into a coma. You could die. They send a small electrical current into a region behind your ear, and then a shadow appears behind you. You can't see it, but you know it's there. You can feel it when you sit up, it sits up. When you lie down, it lies down behind you and wraps its arms around you. Then the doctors turn off the electricity and the shadow goes away. You don't feel the presence anymore. Current on. Presence, current off. Nothing. Every single time, they summoned the third man. The neuroscientist running that surgery was Olaf Blanc. And until that moment in 2006, nobody knew where the third man came from. Blanc's team stimulated the part of the brain that tracks where your body is in space. The left temporoparietal junction.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Tuna. Fried potato. Funyun.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Temporoparietal junction.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

What I say.

[A.J. Echelfish]

It takes signals from your muscles, your inner ear, your eyes, your skin. And it builds one picture of where you are and what you're doing. When that system breaks from exhaustion, oxygen deprivation, extreme cold, or an electrode, the brain builds that picture of you twice. And you're aware of both. But it feels like the second presence belongs to someone else. In 2014, Bloc took it further. His team built a robot to mimic human movement. Blindfolded, volunteers stood in front of one robot and behind another, like waiting in line. The subject then taps the robot in front of them on the shoulder. The robot behind copies this in real time and taps the subject on the shoulder. Fine. But when the robot's reactions were delayed, Just by half a second, volunteers felt something. A presence behind them, not the robot. A presence sentient and aware. Some got so disturbed they asked to stop. Two subjects felt even more than one presence in the room, all from half a second delay. Blanc's team built a machine that could create the third man on demand. The third man experiment proved that when the brain's prediction of sensation is interrupted, it attributes those sensations to an external agent. In other words, the third man. But there's a big problem with this theory. That's not how the third man works at all. In 2014, researchers designed a robotic presence experiment to mimic the sensed presence in controlled conditions. And it worked. A presence appeared, but it was nothing like the third man. Subjects described a shadow entity that made them uncomfortable, even frightened. That's not how the third man works. He doesn't create fear, he takes it away. Every survivor describes a calming presence, supportive and encouraging. The mechanism matched. The experience didn't. So is the third man real? Well, let's break it down. The skeptical explanation is clean. Under extreme stress, the brain misfires. It hallucinates a second person built from its own signals. Blanc proved it by stimulating the temporoparietal junction.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Complimentary pirate luncheon.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Temporopara. Nevermind. Electrode on. Ghost appears. Electrode off. Gone. His team reproduced the effect in healthy people in minutes. The third man is the brain talking to itself and not recognizing its own voice. And that explanation fits every survivor. Shackleton had been awake 36 hours in subzero cold. Lindbergh hadn't slept in over two days. Joe Simpson was hypothermic with a shattered leg. And Ron DeFrancisco was breathing smoke and carbon monoxide. But the glitch theory can't explain the most important part. The third man is helpful. Hallucinations from oxygen deprivation are chaotic melting walls, hostile figures, panic. The third man is the opposite. He's calm. He gives directions. He knows the way out. And he's consistent. In 1943, the British neurologist MacDonald Critchley interviewed almost 300 shipwreck survivors. This was 60 years before Blanc picked up an electrode. Critchley found the same pattern. Calm, presence, specific guidance disappears when the danger ends. Christians and Atheists, 1916 and 2001, mountain climbers and office workers, all of them describe the same thing. And there's one more theory worth mentioning. In 1976, psychologist Julian Jaynes argued that ancient humans didn't have the kind of internal experience that we have today. They heard voices, commands from the right hemisphere of the brain, and interpreted them as Gods. Janes called it the bicameral mind. The theory says that under extreme stress, the brain reverts to that older operating system. The command voice comes back. Sounds like science fiction, but it fits these theories better than a misfiring brain does. But here's the question. Nobody can. If the brain makes the third man, why does it make him a savior? Evolution doesn't usually build backup systems, but that switch on at the moment of death. Unless they work. Systems that are calm, specific directional systems that know which way to crawl, which way to walk, which way to swim in the pitch black. If the third man is a malfunction, he's the most useful malfunction in the history of biology. If the brain is doing this on purpose, then we're looking at something in human consciousness that science hasn't mapped yet. Something that knows you need help. And something that shows up on time. Something that leaves when you're safe. The survivors know what they felt. The scientists know what they can prove. And somewhere in the gap between those two things, on a mountain, in a cockpit, inside a cave, in a burning stairwell, the third man was there. And I don't need science to explain the third Man. I don't care who he is. I'm just glad he's there, waiting and watching, ready to step in when you need it most.

[Sponsor Announcer 3]

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[A.J. Echelfish]

thank you so much for hanging out today. I'm A.J. that's Echelfish.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

You like me. You really like me.

[A.J. Echelfish]

This has been the wife of House Jetfuner. Learned something. I'd appreciate it if you hit some of those buttons down there, like subscribe, comment, share. That stuff really helps us out. And like most topics we cover on the channel, today's is recommended by you. So if there's a story you'd like to see or learn more about, go to thewildfiles.com tips. Catch us on Discord. Send an email Live chat. You can reach us a bunch of ways. Hey, remember the Wildfiles is also a podcast. You can take us on the road. Twice a week. I post Deep Dives into the stories you cover right here on the channel. Plus I simulcast all the episodes for on the podcast and it also posts episodes that wouldn't be allowed here. It's called the Y Files Operation Podcast and it's available everywhere. And if you are listening on an audio platform right now, pay attention to the road. But also hit those buttons, follow like all that stuff. That really helps. I appreciate it. Now, if you need more WI fi in your life, seek therapy. No, I'm kidding. Check out our discord. There's over 100,000 fans on there. So there's someone on there 24. Seven talking about the same weird stuff we do here. It's a lot of fun, it's a great community, it's really supportive and it's free to join. And speaking of 24. 7, check out our 24. 7 stream on the WiFiles backstage linked down below. Over there we run episodes back to back with some fun, weird content in between. And the live chat is amazing. There's people over there right now. If you enjoy the stories I tell in the Y Files, check out my other show on the channel called the Basement. It's a conversation show where I chat with the interesting people behind the episode. Some of them you know, some you don't. But they're all fascinating experts on fun topics like Knights Templar, the moon landing, JFK conspiracy, CERN scientists, researchers, Hitler chasers, all kinds of random stuff. And if there's someone you want to see on the show, let me know. I'm always on the hunt for good guests. Special thanks to our patrons made this channel possible. Every episode of the WIF Files is dedicated to our Patreon members. I couldn't do any of this without your support. And if you'd like to support the channel, keep us going and join our community of weird, amazing people. Become a member on Patreon for as little as three bucks a month, you get access to perks like seeing videos early with no commercials, exclusive merch, plus two private live streams every week just for you. And the whole Y Files team is on the stream. And you can turn your camera on, hop up on stage, ask a question, talk about anything you like. I think it's the best perk there is. Another great way to support the channel is grab something from the WI File Store.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Grab a heck of a T shirt. Oh, one of these fitable coffee mugs you can stick your fist in. Or if you have a third man around, he can stick his fist in there. I don't care how many men's fists gotta go in there. I'm not gonna report you to HR or nothing. Oh, grandma hoodie. Set my face on it. Look at these. One of these adorable squeezy. I can't even take it. Adorable squeezy animal hanging talking fish toys.

[A.J. Echelfish]

But if you're gonna buy merch, make sure you become a member on YouTube. Hear me out. YouTube members get 10% off everything in the wildflower store, and it's three bucks a month. So if you're going to spend $40 on t shirts or fistable coffee mugs, it pays for itself. And look, if you want to grab the coupon code and cancel, that's fine. That code is there to save you money, not make me money. In fact, all that revenue goes to the team. I don't touch it.

[Co-host/Sidekick]

Yeah, let's keep that secret under your gill, Zach.

[A.J. Echelfish]

Those are the plugs. And that's going to do it. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.

[Guest/Caller 1]

I believe Polybius in Area 51 a secret code inside the Bible says said I would I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music so I'm singing like I should but then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth my friends and it never ends no, it never ends. I feel the crap cat I got stuck inside mel's home with mk ultra of being only 2 aware did Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landing alone on a film set with the shadow people

[Guest/Caller 2]

there

[Guest/Caller 1]

the Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man I'm told and his name was cold and I can't believe I'm

[Guest/Caller 2]

dancing with the fish Head to fish on Thursday nights Wednesday J2 and W. All through the night.

[Guest/Caller 1]

The madman sightings and the solar stones still come to Agatha the secret city underground Mysterious number stations Planet Circle 2 Project Stargate and weather dark watcher was found in a simulation don't you worry though the black kn I can't believe

[Guest/Caller 2]

I'm dancing with the fish on Thursday nights with they J2 and the weapons I b on to the night All I ever wanted was to just hear the troops of the weapons and be up through the night Head for fish on Thursday nights When they change you and weapons I. Ever wanted was to just hear the truth all to go. Loves to dance Gerdy loves to dance Gertie loves to dance yeah Gertie love to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel and camels love to dance when the feeling is right Always in time.

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[A.J. Echelfish]

Com.

[Sponsor Announcer 4]

Rules and restrictions apply.