← The Word on Fire Show - Catholic Faith and Culture
The Word on Fire Show - Catholic Faith and Culture
WOF 535: Bishop Barron on Bishop Fulton Sheen
00:32:58
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Word on Fire Show. I'm Matthew Petrusic, senior director of the Word on Fire Institute and the host of the Word on Fire Show. Thank you for joining us. The faithful recently rejoiced at the news that Bishop Fulton Sheen, the great American evangelist who lived from 1895 to 1979, has moved forward in the canonization process. The Vatican recently announced that he will soon be beatified, which is one step away from being declared a saint. This is an especially happy development for Word on Fire Catholic Ministries, which which as an apostolate dedicated to evangelization, has a special devotion to Bishop Sheen. In fact, his portrait hangs just beyond the studio doors where we are recording the show right now next to our other patrons, Saint Therese of Lisieux and Saint Pope John Paul ii. Looking back, what kind of enduring impact has Fulton Sheen had on evangelization and the church? Looking forward, what can we continue to learn from him today, especially given the fact that the evangelical landscape has so drastically changed, both culturally and technologically since Sheen's time? Here to celebrate Sheen's legacy and how the great communicator continues to shape Word on Fire's own evangelical mission is Bishop Robert Barron. Welcome back to studio, Bishop.
- [01:23]
B
Thanks, man.
- [01:24]
A
Today we're looking at the great Bishop Fulton Sheen and celebrating his legacy and looking at his ongoing impact not only at Word on Fire, but on the church and culture more broadly. But before we do, what have you been up to recently?
- [01:36]
B
Well, I'm in the midst of confirmation season, which is always, it's a joy. It's also a bit of a workout. You know, when I was in California, I used to do about 36 confirmations in a two month period. So you're pretty much, you know, all the time here. It's a little bit less, but you just do a lot of confirmations. And I go from end to end of my diocese from, you know, Wisconsin to South Dakota. So it was a lot of driving. But it's always, you know, it's a great thing and it's, I think it's important task for a bishop because you're there with, for these young kids to kind of symbolize the universal church. And it's, you know, special for them when the bishop shows up. And I always get a kick out of it. But it's a bit of a, you know, it's a bit of a workout during these months for most of us bishops.
- [02:19]
A
Well, so again, we're looking at the legacy of Fulton Sheen, but before two, actually, we look at his impact and his biography. We recently received news that the Church has moved to beatify him. So for those in our audience who may not know what the process is, can you explain that process? What does it mean that he's been beatified, but he's not yet a saint?
- [02:41]
B
Yeah, beatus in Latin just means happy, lovely. When you're beatified, it means that it's one step away from sainthood. So we're talking about the happiness of that person in heaven. So to be a saint, we would say, is to be in heaven. That's ultimately what it means. So it's the last step in the process. The church is very careful in the Declaration of Saints. You have to go through several stages. You know, when a cause is first introduced and then the case has to be made, a kind of critical biography is written. There's various interrogations of witnesses, witnesses and so on and so forth. And one of the key moments, that's where beatification comes in, is the church seeks a miraculous confirmation that the person's in heaven. And Sheen has an extraordinary miracle about a young baby born and who died. I don't know if his baby was
- [03:37]
A
born dead or died right after heartbeat for 61 minutes.
- [03:40]
B
I know. And the last version of the story I heard said the baby was actually in the morgue. And so when the priest arrived, the parents summoned the priest to pray. The nurse said, father, the baby's gone and the baby's in the morgue. And the mother said, I want the father to pray. All right, all right. They backed off, and the priest put a relic of Fulton Sheen on the baby's chest and prayed, I think just prayed the Our Father. And then the baby begins to cry. And the doctor at that point was, I mean, flabbergasted, but then said, well, you know, the baby's alive, but, I mean, he's going to be completely impaired and there'll be irreparable brain damage. He's a young, healthy, young, bright kid today, you know, named Fulton. So it's an extraordinary miracle. Now, the church, when you get one that you can verify, that's enough for beatification. You need a second one than to move to canonization. So he's very close now to being declared a saint.
- [04:44]
A
Let's look at Bishop Sheen, the man, and in his teaching, his impact. Start with a brief personal and intellectual biography before looking at his impact on you and on Word on Fire and the work of evangelization here. So what are some key moments in his life and some sort of key ideas that he encounters that leads him to become the greatest bishop. Fulton Sheen.
- [05:07]
B
Yeah, well, he's from my home state of Illinois, a little town called El Paso, Illinois, not far from Peoria. From a very simple background, early on, he conceives the idea of becoming a priest. He's one of those people that's called, you know, very young to become a priest. Studies in Illinois, studies also up here in Minnesota. He was for a time at St. Paul Seminary, where I send my students, then studied at Catholic U. And then finally at Louvain, the great Catholic university of Louvain. So he had a very rich, very thorough education, has a great love for philosophy and for St. Thomas Aquinas. I'll say this as a proud Minnesotan. Sheen's devotion to the holy hour, they say, credibly began up here at the seminary. That he had a professor there that impressed upon him the centrality of the holy hour, which then he practiced his whole life, then propagated to the world, really. I think Minnesota can claim a little credit for that, you know, but he had a very rich background. And when he returned home as priest of, you know, Peoria, everyone knew he was destined to be a professor. But the bishop at the time wanted to spend a little bit of time in a parish just to kind of test his. His obedience, you know. And so the young, you know, very gifted figures. Okay, I'll be a parish priest for a while. And then the bishop said, okay, off you go. And he was offered a job at Catholic University. He remained there for many, many years. I think it was over 20 years. He was professor, philosophy, apologetics, religion at Catholic University. And then when he was, I think, about 50, maybe early 50s, he begins the TV ministry that he's best known for. But, you know, that's a very important moment in his life. That he had a formation as a student and then a long further formation, you might say, as a professor of theology. That's what made his public evangelical work so powerful. That's a little sketch, though, of Sheen's background.
- [07:15]
A
One of the major theological contributions he makes is in this idea of the theology of the mystical body. Can you explain a little bit about what his argument is there?
- [07:25]
B
Well, you know, it's very interesting that theme of the church as mystical body is emerging in the early 20th century. So just as Sheen, she's born is in 1895, I think, so just as he's kind of coming of age and going through his education, and then it's under Pius XII now, a few decades later, he writes this great encyclical called Mystici Corporis, which develops that idea very strongly. It's this wonderful idea. The roots of it are ultimately biblical in people like St. Paul. But it's reiterated in the theology of the 19th century, especially in Ger, that the church is not so much an organization. So we can look at a corporation, a business, a government, and we can see certain analogies with the Church. It has offices and hierarchies and so on. But it's wrong to think of the Church primarily as an organization. It's more like an organism, which means a living thing made up of cells and molecules and organs, and constituting a body of interrelationship and interdependence under the headship of Christ, animated by the Holy Spirit. That's the Church. We can pull out all kinds of ecclesiological implications from that, and it gives you a much richer understanding of what it means to be a member of the Church. Can you see how. And Sheen brought this out. From the mystical body theology comes a deep commitment to justice and concern for the poor and for the hungry and the homeless, because they're not just people having problems. They're members of the same body that I'm a member of. And so the healthy organ can't say to the sick organ, well, that's your problem. No, it's our problem. So from the mystical body theology comes this very strong commitment to social action and Catholic action, social justice. And Sheen had that. His great book on the Church, which develops these themes, ends with a reflection on Catholic action, which I think is very powerful. Those are great themes prior to the council. Now, a show we could do sometime is why some of that didn't get carried through. Vatican II shifts to Church's People of God altogether legitimate image, too. But it tended to shift away from Church's mystical body. And in my judgment, that's a problem that we set aside. This extremely rich metaphor for the Church. But it was very important for Sheen.
- [09:59]
A
One of the quotes you've highlighted from Sheen is where he argues, I believe this is in his book. The Church is the prolongation of the Incarnation through space and time. Explain what he means by that.
- [10:10]
B
I love that. And that's based in the Church Fathers. So the Word of God took to himself a body 2000 years ago. We say the human nature of Jesus, right? Takes to himself this human nature, and then uses that, this is Thomas Aquinas language as an instrument. So the Logos uses as an instrument the humanity of Jesus, so that humanity becomes an icon of the invisible God as St. Paul put it right. So Sheen, following the Fathers, would say, but then there was a second kind of incarnation, again, analogy, kind of incarnation, whereby the Logos now takes to himself the mystical body of the Church. Now think of Jesus saying to Saul, saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? So the Logos has now taken to himself the mystical body of the Church, all of us who are cells, molecules and organs in his body, he's the head. So it's a prolongation in that sense of the Incarnation. So the Church in its sacraments, in the liturgy, in the Eucharist, in the saints, in the works of Merc, becomes Christ in the world. It's the way Christ continues to be present to the world that's also a mystical body. Ecclesiology.
- [11:26]
A
How does the papacy fit within that vision?
- [11:28]
B
Well, of course, the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Right. He's the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ. So he's a kind of sacramental representation of the head.
- [11:38]
A
Another major theme in Sheen's thought is his theology of grace. So, Bishop, say a little bit about how Sheen conceived of and communicated how grace worked upon those who chose to accept it.
- [11:51]
B
Yeah, he used an image. It's in his writings, but also, I think, in one of his TV presentations that I think is very rich, and I've tried to adapt it, too. Sheen says that in the hierarchy of being, so you go from the lowest, just basic elements, to plants and animals, and then to human beings and then to the spiritual. What you notice is there can be a lifting up of a lower element by a higher element, but it can never happen from below up. It has to happen through a condescension of what's above. Now, what I mean, so think of a mineral or something in the earth, you know, can be assimilated by plant life. The plant, through the roots and all that, can draw minerals into itself and raise it to a higher pitch. Right. The mineral on its own can't do that. It can't become something higher without being drawn. Now, the plant can become something higher when the animal comes and devours it and eats it and then brings it up into its animal form of life. Right. The animal. We're eating animals all the time. We assimilate them now. We consume them and draw them up into our higher form of life. So following that principle, Sheen says, well, can we be drawn up into the spiritual order? Yeah. What we can't do is affect it on our own. I can't say now, by my heroic efforts, by my great moral excellence, by my Just, you know, up by my bootstraps, I will make myself a new creation. No, see, and there I would say, and Sheen, he's following Aquinas here. That's what the Protestants got right. That's what Luther saw clearly was. I mean, you can't say, I can't save myself. There's no auto justification. Do I need a graceful condescension from above? Yeah, absolutely. But here's the difference. Here's the Catholic difference. So mineral is just kind of dumbly assimilated. The plant dumbly assimilated. The animal dumbly eaten by us. But see, but we're subjects with mind and will. And so, yes, we need the condescension of grace, but then our cooperation with that grace, to use Catholic language, we cooperate with the grace that's offered to us and thereby become divinized or spiritualized. Like Sheen, he's echoing Aquinas here all the time. Is the purpose of the Christian life is not to make me a nice guy or make me a morally better person. I mean, that's fine. But, you know, Norman Vincent Peale can do that. The point of the Gospel is to make me a new creation. I become transfigured and transformed and elevated. I'm now a son or daughter of God. I can't affect that on my own. That has to be through grace. Right. Read the Council of Trend. You know, I mean, can I save myself? Absolutely not. Is grace indispensably important? Yes. Is grace always the first move? Yeah. And it's this principle of the condescension from above allows for the assimilation from below.
- [15:12]
A
So looking at your own sort of personal engagement with Sheen, what are some early memories you have of him, and did he have any impact in your own journey to the priesthood?
- [15:22]
B
Not much. I would say this. My parents loved Fulton Sheen, so my parents would have watched him on tv. My father was a great guy and very, I think of the John Wayne movie the Quiet Man. He was like a taciturn man, you know, very practically minded, ardent Catholic, you know, And I remember one time, somehow Sheen's name came up and my father was in his chair and he said, I liked what he said. I liked the way he said it. And I think that summed up the way a lot of Catholics felt about Sheen. They, like a lot in their generation, would have seen him with great pride that on this major American TV network competing successfully against Jackie Gleason and Frank Sinatra is a bishop in full regalia, including Ferriiolo and Zucchetto. And coming out in primetime and giving a 25 minute lecture without notes on the Catholic faith and culture. And I think a lot of Catholics legitimately took a lot of pride in that and in Sheen's popularity. So he was great for my parents generation. Now I'm the generation that came of age after Vatican II. So I go to first grade in 1965, the year the council ends. There was kind of a turning away from much of the pre conciliar that we're gonna kind of. We're reinventing the church. That's talk for another day. But my generation would not have followed Sheen. By that time, he wasn't on TV anymore. He dies. What? 1979, he dies. Actually, when I was at Catholic U. I remember, and he was, you know, fondly remembered there. So by the time I'm coming of age, you know, late 60s, early 70s, he was toward the end of his time and didn't impact us. But then I'll say this largely through ewtn, because I think they started replaying his old shows. He begins to appeal now to the next generation after mine. So when I come back to Mundelein Seminary to teach, I discovered these young guys. They're the John Paul II generation for sure by that time. See, John Paul was pope when I entered the seminary, but he hadn't had the impact yet. But by the early and mid-90s when I'm teaching, all these guys were there because of John Paul ii. And they came to love Fulton Sheen, especially the Holy Hour. And they begin practicing the Holy Hour. My generation, we didn't do that. I can tell you. We didn't do the Holy Hour, but my students were doing it. And I became kind of re. Intrigued by Sheen because of that. I remember this is. I'm dating myself, but I had this collection of these little cassette tapes and someone. I forgot how I got them now, but I began to play them in my car. And they were all talks of Sheen, like a retreat he gave or something. Well, they were darn good. They were smart, they were funny, they were insightful, they were spiritually rich. And they really had an impact on me. I listened to the whole. Whatever that retreat was, and I still remember things from that that commenced my own kind of rediscovery of Fulton Sheen.
- [18:30]
A
So there's a large portrait of Fulton Sheen right on the other side of the studio doors where we're filming here. What impact did he have on your decision to form Word on Fire Catholic Ministries?
- [18:39]
B
A lot. Because Sheen, I just saw him as. He was the patron Saint of evangelizing through media. And see, here's where I think there is a point of contact in a way, between the two of us, because I had this ver rich formation in philosophy and in theology, including Catholic. You and a European. I went to the Institut Catholique in Paris. He went to Louvain, which was a few clouds away from Paris. We both had a Catholic view connection, Both a rich appropriation of especially St. Thomas Aquinas. And then we also come together this way. We both taught for a long time. So I taught at Mundelein from 92 until, well, I became rector in 2012. So 20 years. He taught about 20 years at Catholic U. And then at that moment. So word on fire commences around 2000. I would have been 40 at that time. By the time we're doing the Catholicism series and all that, I'm in my mid-40s. Sheen, yeah, Sheen's on the radio by that time in, like, his 40s, probably, and then TV by his 50s. That's when now the Catholicism series and many things we're doing. So there is a kind of interesting parallel between the two. And I just saw him as someone who paved the way, especially, may I say, in the importance of that formation. One of my pet peeves is the number of people that will just, hey, I got a microphone. I'm a Catholic. Here's my podcast show. Well, who are you and where were you educated? And what do you know about the faith? And, you know, I'm being a little cynical there, because some people are great, but you just put out a shingle and say, I'm a Catholic podcaster. Sheen had a very, very profound formation intellectually. And I always tell people, if you want to get into this gig, you need to do your. You need to do the work. You can't just hang out your shingle. You've got to be grounded in the great tradition and know what you're saying. And so Sheen is a model to me of that.
- [20:45]
A
So a few years ago, you came out with this series called the Pivotal Players, following your Catholicism series, and you devote a whole episode to Fulton Sheen, and he's among some of the greatest lights in the history of the Church. Why did you choose to focus on him in a whole episode?
- [21:01]
B
Yeah, and it's not because I think Fulton Sheen is an intellectual at the level of Thomas Aquinas or Augustine, or that he's a founder of an order like Ignatius. So I'm not trying to exaggerate his importance, but I think I saw him as Literally pivotal in the way he opened the door for this particular form of the new evangelization. Groundedness in the great tradition, but then willingness to use what the most contemporary forms of communication. Because, you know, there were a lot of people. I certainly heard this when I got started. Sheen heard it for sure. Like, oh, come on television. Are you joking? Can you do anything serious on television? And what do you mean, a primetime TV show? And you're gonna talk about what? So his more academic colleagues thought, oh, all this crude popularization. But I think Sheen proved that you can do it in an intellectually serious way and still a way that is compelling for a lot of people. I found that very inspiring, and that's why his portrait's out there.
- [22:00]
A
He's famous for making complex theological and moral truths both accessible and very attractive to large audiences, both Catholic and Protestant. How did. In your judgment, how did he accomplish that?
- [22:14]
B
Yeah, it's a combination of things. All the great comedians and entertainers of the time admired him and noticed these gifts. I think it was Milton Berle said his comic timing was impeccable. And Sheen used humor a lot. You look at it now, a lot of his jokes are kind of corny, you know, but at the time, I think it was just, hey, there's a bishop up there, you know, wearing a cape, and he's telling a kind of a cute joke. I think people found that attractive, you know, and he did have a good comic timing and self deprecation. He also had lots of rhetorical gifts. Again, it's funny. You look at him now, you watch him, and he strikes us maybe as a little grandiloquent, a little hyper dramatic, but, you know, look, he was coming out of a, like, a 19th century tradition. Think of, you know, the great orators of, like, Lincoln's time. And, you know, you pose like this and dramatic gestures and the voice. And so Sheen was coming out of that tradition in a way. And so. Okay, fair enough. See, for us, the 60s are like this great watershed, and we were all taught to be much more casual and much more natural. So, okay, the rhetoric has changed, but Sheen had those gifts and knew how to use them. Part of it, too, was his looks. He was a striking looking man. He wasn't tall. I know that from testimonies, people that knew him, but also his cape. He was like five foot five maybe. So he wasn't a tall man, but he had an imposing physical presence. And everyone talks about his eyes. There was something about his eyes. Deep set, penetrating, you know, and he knew how to use that he had, like, an actor's gift. John Paul comes to mind. You know, John Paul was trained as an actor and knew how to use his physicality and his presence because he, too, had a very charismatic presence. And Sheen certainly had that. So he knew how to use these various gifts of communication, I think, too, like all. All great teachers, if you want to say, what's the one thing in common? It's a gift for analogy. A teacher knows. Okay, what do you know? Well, the thing I want to teach you is, like, it, but it's a little different. That's an analogy. Right. Teachers always have a great gift for analogy. Like, Picasso was asked one time, what's the key to your genius? And he said, I have an eye for visual analogies. So that was very interesting. You know, like, the curve of the guitar is like the curve of the woman's body, or this eye is like. And a lot of his painting is showing these analogies. But I think Sheen had that, a great gift for analogy.
- [24:52]
A
Sheen also did not shy away from using sharp, prophetic language to condemn the moral errors he saw in the culture and in the world, even in politics. How do you think he was able to do that without alienating his millions of viewers?
- [25:04]
B
Yeah, I think he established goodwill. I think they knew, okay, I like this guy. And he's smart, and he's. And, you know, he appealed. This is very important. He appealed way beyond the Catholic Church. And he had that. It is a Catholic instinct to use, like, the natural law to find, you know, what are the things that we all have in common. Catholic, Jew, Protestant at that time. And they did. He appealed widely to Protestants by appealing to great American values. And then these common moral values, I think, and basic biblical values. I think he built up goodwill, which enabled him then. He was a great opponent of communism and one of the greatest in the 20th century. And the Communists knew it. And they were after him. They were watching him, and they were wary of him. Something I'll tell you, I was happy about, you know, recently I was badmouthing AOC and mehrmamdani. Cause they're coming out with these, I mean, frankly, Marxist formulations. And I just did a few, like, X posts, and I was very happy. Someone said, well, you know, not since Fulton Sheen has a bishop come out that strongly. I thought, well, all right, fine, I'll accept that. I hate communism. I hate Marxism, and it's very, very dangerous. And so when these politicians are just, you know, blithely trading and Marxist claptrap. So Sheen was Against it like mad in the 50s and I'm against it now.
- [26:24]
A
So we'll soon turn to our listener question. But before we do, by way of conclusion, Bishop, thinking about how we can use the great gifts that the Sheen has to evangelization context today, while recognizing that both culturally and technologically, things have drastically changed. I mean, it's hard to imagine 30 million people tuning into a primetime event, but perhaps we can hope so. What advice do you think Sheen would offer us on how to use or perhaps not use social media?
- [26:54]
B
Yeah, but no, it's a good question. And I don't know what he would say about that because, right, to see Sheen, you'd have to tune in your TV or your radio at a particular time, you know, and I think he would have appreciated social media, but also seen the real negative side of it. What would he say to people today? I think he emphasized the education side of it and read, read, read and be grounded in the great tradition. He famously said that he made sure he ran every single word of Thomas Aquinas in Latin past his eyes. He read everything Thomas Aquinas ever wrote in Latin. And I believe that. I think he would have done that. They say when he was preparing his talks, he would write them out in French and in Latin and then he would practice them in those two languages just so they would get into his soul. And then he would deliver it in English, you know, without notes. And people find that amazing. He'd go on for a half hour without a note in front of him and end, you know, on the point. But like anybody else who makes it look easy, there's a ton of work that goes into making it look easy. And Sheen had that kind of dedication.
- [28:13]
A
What kind of counsel or perhaps caution you think Sheen would offer to the now? And you've just pointed to this multitudes of self identified Catholics who go online, turn on their camera, get their microphone, and claim to speak on podcasts.
- [28:26]
B
I think he'd be wary of them. I think he'd be wary and he'd want to make sure they have the requisite formation, something. You know, I've said this at bishops meetings. You know, we monitor textbooks, we monitor catechetical programs, we give imprimaturs, we certify professors, we do all those things. But let's face it, most people today, they're not getting their instruction from books and pamphlets and university courses. They're getting it from the Internet. So why aren't we having more control over the Internet? And I still think that's a good Idea. Now, what that looks like precisely, I don't know. But I think we bishops, as teachers of the church, should have more control over what's being said in these social media platforms.
- [29:11]
A
It has gotten out of control, I think.
- [29:13]
B
Yeah. And again, you say, oh, censorship, but we do it in all the other areas. Look at the mandatum. We're asking professors to seek the mandatum that you may teach Catholic theology.
- [29:26]
A
That's a good idea. Ask for a mandatum from every podcaster. Why not?
- [29:30]
B
We actually talked about it and now go back many years when I launched this, and there was. Oh, there was an avalanche of protest. And, you know, he's trying to control us and everything. I thought, well, then we should stop imprimaturs and stop.
- [29:42]
A
Well, it'd be a benefit for the audience, too, to know, does this presenter have a mondatum or not?
- [29:47]
B
Right, right. So I think Sheen would be interested in that.
- [29:51]
A
And finally, Bishop, how would you like Word on Fire to carry on and advance Sheen's legacy?
- [29:56]
B
Well, that's what we're doing, I think, you know, is in a smart, beautiful way using the media available to us to announce the faith broadly, widely, not dumbing it down using the beauty and wealth of the tradition. I mean, all of that is Sheen inspiration for me. So that's the game. That's the game.
- [30:26]
A
So now time for our listener question. Today we have Alejandro from Argentina who's asking about a possible vocation he thinks he might have to the priesthood and how he might be able to effectively evangelize on social media.
- [30:41]
C
Hello, Bishop Barron. My name is Alejandro. I am from Argentina. And my question really was, even though I'm now 39 years old, I felt a strong calling for the vocation of priesthood. And I was wondering if he had any advice for me, especially as someone who wants to connect with social media and wants. Wants to use that to reach people and help evangelize and help the church. Thank you so much for your time.
- [31:07]
B
Yeah, thanks for that question. And, you know, don't think you're too old. I've taught all kinds of people over the years in their 30s, 40s who've entered the seminary. If you think you got a vocation, take that very seriously. And I would say, first step, get a spiritual director. Find someone, a parish priest, someone that you could talk to about it and have a regular contact with the spiritual director. Secondly, go to Mass every day and. And bring to the liturgy that. Great question for Lord, what do you want me to do? Here I am. Lord, send me where you want me to go. But the main thing is get a good spiritual director. And then in terms of evangelization, I reiterate what I've just been saying is I'd go to the seminary. I'd read, read, read, read, read in the great tradition and prepare yourself to do it well so you're not doing it just in a superficial way, not just to get on the air, but get yourself grounded in the great intellectual and aesthetic tradition of Catholicism.
- [32:07]
A
Well, thank you, Alejandro, for reaching out to us. If you would like to ask Bishop Barron a question for a future Word on Fire show, please visit askbishopbarron.com again. That's askbishopbarron.com we are always grateful to hear from you. Well, thank you, Bishop.
- [32:22]
B
You're welcome.
- [32:22]
A
Looking forward to the next one.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah, thanks, man.
- [32:25]
A
That does it for us today. Thanks for joining us on the Word On Fire Show. If you're interested in learning more about how Word on Fire can help you grow closer to Christ, become a better evangelist with and for others, and work for the common good, consider joining the Word on Fire Institute. Check us out at institute.WordPress.org that's institute.WordPress.org and we'll see you next time.