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The Word on Fire Show - Catholic Faith and Culture
WOFS 536: Bishop Barron's New Book on Persecution Against Christians
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Word on Fire Show. I'm Matthew Petrusyk Sr. Director of the Word on Fire Institute and the host of the Word on Fire Show. Thank you for joining us. Although not widely reported in legacy media outlets, Christianity is by far the most persecuted religion in the world. From the Middle east to Africa, India, China, North Korea, and elsewhere, Christian communities regularly experience widespread humiliation, imprisonment and kidnappings, expulsions, and even murderous mob violence. While not as severe, Christians in parts of Europe and even right here at home in the United States also often endure discrimination, exclusion, and ridicule. There is no ambiguity about who is carrying out these attacks or what their motives are. Like the martyrs of past centuries, millions of our Christian brothers and sisters are currently suffering because they profess faith in Jesus Christ. In response to this ongoing outrage, Bishop Robert Barron has released a new book called what Do Their Deaths? Christian Persecution Today. Intended for widespread distribution, the book spotlights heartbreaking stories of the continuing targeting of Christian communities throughout the world, offers a theological explanation for why Christianity has been under assault since its inception, and most importantly, provides actionable ideas for what all of us can do to respond. Here to discuss the book and why its message is more urgent than ever is Bishop Robert Barron. Bishop, welcome back to the studio.
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B
Thanks, Matt. Always good to be with you.
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A
So today we're looking at a very serious topic, the ongoing persecution of Christians throughout the world. Jesus, an ongoing problem. And you've just produced a new book about the problem and very importantly, how we can address it. But before we get to that pressing topic, what have you been up to recently?
- [01:59]
B
Well, I'm not sure when this show will air, but as we record, I just am back from the last meeting of the Presidential Commission on Religious Liberty. So for the past year, I've been attending these meetings pretty much once a month, and we had our last one, and now we're preparing the final report for the president. So having heard from witnesses, having done a lot of discussing of these matters, we're now going to make concrete recommendations to the president. So it's been an interesting year and I enjoyed it very much. Actually, I enjoyed these meetings. They were a lot and we took in a lot, but I was privileged to be part of it.
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A
Did you find them actually productive?
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B
Yeah, I did, and I found them interesting. And, you know, going into it, I had no idea what to expect, really. Out of the blue, I get this call to be a member of this commission and. But I must say I enjoyed the meetings and thought they were fascinating.
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A
Let's now turn to today's topic. So you've just produced this book, what Do Their Deaths? Christian Persecution Today. And we'll turn to the title in just a moment because it's certainly significant, but sort of just give us some background, Bishop, why this book and especially why now?
- [03:09]
B
Yeah, it's been a problem now for a long time. Around the world, in a remarkable way, Christians are being persecuted. In fact, Christians Christianity is clearly the most persecuted religion in the world. The number of those who are directly persecuted or under threat is really staggering, and it's not been talked about sufficiently, and there are reasons for that that we could explore. But I just felt it was time to, you know, raise consciousness about this and speaking as a Brother Christian to all these people who are being persecuted, to show solidarity with them and try to raise consciousness and move people to action.
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A
And the first part of the title, what Do Their Deaths Demand? Where did you get that? Origin?
- [03:52]
B
Yeah, interesting. I was on retreat last January with the bishops of my province. And our retreat master was the great Paul Murray, who's been a friend of mine for a long time, Dominican priest from Rome. And Paul's a very fine poet, and one of his side gigs is he's a great master of titles. So he's been instrumental in the titles of a number of my books over the years. I'll go to him and say, here's what the book's about, or I'll have him read the book. And he's kind of a genius at coming up with titles. So I told him, paul, I'm working on this short book on Christian persecution, and this is a problem. Well, within a few hours, he sees me in the hallway. We're both in the same kind of dorm area for the retreat. And he said, what do their deaths demand? And I said, where did you come up with that? And he said, it's a line from a poem by Denise Lebetov, the great poet. And it was about, I think it was the death of Christian some 40 years ago in Latin America. She wrote a poem and it has that line, what do their deaths demand? And I just thought perfect is the perfect title, because it is raising that question, like, okay, this is happening and what's our obligation? What does it demand of us now who know about it? So I give Father Paul Murray total credit and I guess Denise Levertov indirectly credit for this great title.
- [05:16]
A
Well, and you directly answered that question in the third part of the book, which we'll get to in just a moment. But it's also important to note that Cardinal Pier Battista Pizzabala writes the foreword to the book, so say a little bit about how his own experience with the suffering community in the Holy Land helped you to frame your understanding of the issue.
- [05:35]
B
Yeah. First, I was utterly delighted. And when I finished the book and we're looking for someone to write the preface, he was my number one choice. I said, well, gosh, if we ever get Cardinal Pizzaballa, you know, one of the most respected churchmen in the world, last conclave. He was certainly a papabile. I came into him a little bit during the time of the synods, just a deeply respected figure. And he's the Latin patriarch in Jerusalem. So he's in the front lines of a lot of this religious and cultural conflict. He knows directly about Christian persecution. So I just thought because of that and because he's kind of a great spiritual master, he'd be the perfect person to write the preface. Now, to be honest with you, I thought, well, he's a busy man and who knows? But right away he responded. And more than that, he responded with such a beautiful preface that showed he had really read the book. Sometimes, to be honest, people will write a little few lines based on the title. Yeah, yeah. And God bless them. And I thanked them for that. But, I mean, he really read the book and understood it. He did. And wrote a book, beautiful preface. I've been telling people, look, that's worth the price of admission just to read his preface. So I'm very grateful to him, and I think it really sets the book up beautifully.
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A
And you also note several points in the book, your relationship with aid to the Church in Need. What role did they play in this book?
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B
Yeah, they played an important role. You know, it's a very important organization helping Christians around the world, Catholics around the world, I think, in two ways. One is they provided a lot of the statistical data, and a lot of the stories that I told were based upon work that they've done and stories they've learned about. So they shared that information with me. And then secondly, they're really trying to get it distributed widely. They're presiding over, I think it's six different languages they're going to translate this book into and then help it get distributed widely. That's, of course, our goal. You know, we're selling it. It's a short book, and that's what I wanted. I wanted people to read it. And we're selling it for kind of next to nothing in the hopes that it will get widely distributed.
- [07:40]
A
And they, of course. On the front lines of the persecution.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah, right. This is the work that they do directly. So happy to collaborate with them.
- [07:48]
A
And finally, one more sort of framing question before we actually get into the content of the book. Bishop, why do you think it is that so few Christians, both in the United States and across the west, know that Christianity is by far, as you pointed out, the most persecuted religion in history? Not just now.
- [08:04]
B
Yeah. Well, at the risk of being a little provocative, my answer would be because it doesn't fit the sort of woke narrative that dominates a lot of our communication. As you know, I'm a great critic of wokeism, and one of the marks of it is a tendency to divide the world into the binary of oppressor and oppressed. Right. And then to put people very simplistically on either side of that binary. So who are the oppressors? Well, let's put white people, let's put men. Let's put Westerners, Westerners, especially Americans, and let's put Christians on the oppressor side. Who's on the oppressed side? Well, the women, people of color, non Americans, non Westerners, non Christians. That tends to be the way the wokest mind divides the world. So persecution of Christians doesn't fit. Doesn't fit the narrative. And I think that's why it's been filtered out of a lot of the conversation. It's time for us to take away that goofy filter.
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A
Absolutely. Let's now turn to the book itself. So the text is divided into three sections. The first highlights what persecution against Christians looks like today across the globe. The second section examines the question of why Christians have always been, and, as you note, always will be persecuted from a theological perspective. And the third section offers practical advice on how we can help our fellow Christians in need who are suffering persecution right now. So, Bishop, the first section quotes some alarming statistics, but you draw on St. John Henry Newman's distinction between a notional assent and real assent to focus on telling stories of contemporary martyrs and those who continue to suffer from persecution. Why did you take this approach, sort of focusing on the narrative rather than just sort of giving reams of statistics and reports?
- [09:49]
B
Well, Newman's the right place to start because Newman makes that distinction, and notional ascent is given to concepts and abstract ideas. So let's say I lay out statistics for you. Here are the numbers about Christian persecution, and you say, hmm, interesting. But real ascent, he calls it, is the ascent that we give to something vividly experienced, seen, or imagined. The famous example, and I cite in the book, is prior to, let's say, the 1850s a lot of people, notionally in America, would have said in the north anyway, slavery's a bad thing. Yeah, I'm against slavery, but it was an abstraction. But then it's Uncle Tom's Cabin, right? Harry Beecher Stowe writes this novel that's become massively popular. And what it did was it brought vividly to people's imaginations the reality of slavery. And there's this story, and it could be apocryphal, but if it's not true, it should be true of Stowe coming to the White House during the Lincoln administration. I think President Lincoln saying to her, so you're the little lady who wrote the book that started this great war. But see, that reflects the Newman idea that she brought to Real Ascent the visceral horror of slavery, which then led to the Civil War. As I say in the book, I'm not interested in starting a war, but I am interested in raising consciousness. And statistics and abstractions are one thing, but when you tell a visceral story about it, as Newman said, real ascent leads to action. You know, if you want people to act, you give them something visceral and sensible that appeals to the imagination. So that was my purpose there in telling these stories.
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A
The book tells many detailed stories of contemporary martyrs and those who are still alive but suffering persecution. But what are some that really stand out to you? What are the ones that first come to mind?
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B
It begins really with, and I say it's one that really raised my consciousness back in 2015. The Libyan martyrs, these young men, they were men, like, in their early twenties. For the most part. They were construction workers and ordinary laborers and so on. They were kidnapped by a very radical Islamic group, and then they were taken to this beach in Libya and they were beheaded. And then the video that was made was directed very much to, as they say, the people of the Cross. It was directed toward Christians to say, here's what we're going to do to Christians. And there's so many things that people find moving about it. But one is in the tape, which, happily, I've never seen. But they say that the men, as they're about to die, were calling on the Lord Jesus and were affirming their faith, given every opportunity to say, okay, I repudiate my faith. You know, they didn't. And, you know, that happened in 2015, not that long ago. That sort of raised my consciousness. The other one, and it was in 2016. I remember vividly because I was speaking at World News Day in Krakow, right? And I had a speech all prepared for this big gathering. It was in a stadium. It was like 20,000 kids had my speech already. But I think it was either the day before or even the day of the speech. It was the death of Father Hamel in France. He was the elderly priest, a man in his mid-80s who was brutally murdered by Islamic radicals. And I remember I changed my speech. I got up on the stage. You can see it on YouTube, and I say, look, everybody, I had a speech before prepare, but I'm getting rid of it. I want to talk to you about the death of this man and what it meant to be a Christian witness and so on. Those. So 2015, 2016, those stories kind of brought it in that Newman way vividly before. My imagination compels us to act. Yeah.
- [13:48]
A
So the book covers all different kinds of persecution, everything from terrorism in the Middle east to murderous mobs in Nigeria and India to imprisonment in China, to employment discrimination in Europe, and unfortunately, here in the United States. Bishop, how do you respond to those who look at the problem of religious persecution and say, oh, look, it's just too complex sociologically, historically for us to be able definitively say that this is Christian persecution. There's other causes at work here, and so we shouldn't sort of make the problem more complex by claiming that Christians are being persecuted?
- [14:20]
B
Yeah, it's a facile excuse. I mean, sure, everything's complicated, and there are multiple causes for things, and to me, that's a banality, that's a commonplace. It can be applied to any situation. But not to see the religious dimension of these attacks and this persecution, you have to be blind or you have to be ideologically captured not to see it. You know, when it comes, like, to the Nigerian persecutions, there's been debate about, are these tribal conflicts, Are there conflicts over farming territory and all this? Sure, I'm sure that's operative somewhere. But look, I'm gonna listen to bishops on the ground, my brother bishops, who are dealing very directly with this, rather than someone sitting around a table at a think tank or in the faculty lounge of some comfy western university. I'll listen to the people on the ground. And they tell me pretty unambiguously about the religious nature of these persecutions. I think it's a facile excuse to say, oh, well, it's complicated. Yeah, okay, it's complicated. Everything is. But you'd be blind not to see the religious dimension of these.
- [15:29]
A
And of course, many of these attacks are taking place in Catholic churches, of
- [15:34]
B
course, on Christian feast days, et cetera et cetera.
- [15:36]
A
Exactly. So let's now turn to the second section of the book where you address the question, why the persecution of Christians? And rather than offering a historical or sociopolitical account for Christian persecution, you provide a theological account grounded in the nature of Christ and his mystical body and the relationship between that and the world. And you write, for example, bishop, quoting you here, just as Jesus was opposed, his church has been opposed from the very beginning. And this antagonism is a function of the very nature of Christianity. So say a little bit more about why that's the case and how persecution is sort of built into the identity of Christ and the Christian community itself.
- [16:18]
B
Yeah, to my mind, it's the great question. And I'll cite, first of all, a theologian. I don't really care for that much. But I remember reading a book of his when I was a young man, and a section of it has stayed in my mind, and I kind of reproduce it in this book, talking about Hans Kung and his book called On Being a Christian. Well, there's a section where he says, look at the difference between the way the other great founders died and the way the founder of Christianity died. And I rehearsed this in the book. You know, that the Buddha dies full of years and surrounded by his disciples and confident that his teaching will go on. Muhammad dies full of years, confident that he's accomplished his great end. Confucius dies the same way, surrounded by his disciples and so on. Then there's Jesus, who dies at the age of 30 on this horrible instrument of torture with an animal cry on his lips, his followers having abandoned him, his movement, by all accounts, destroyed. Kung is right in saying that's worth taking into consideration that matters, the way the founders died. Now, why? Because Jesus was opposed in a way that the other founders were not. The opposition to him was so basic. And the fact that, you know, as Catholics, anyway, we hold up the cross of Jesus all the time. Look, I'm wearing it. I'm wearing the cross on which Jesus died. We're not hiding the fact that. That he was done to death. We're holding it up. And from that we take something very basic that he represents, something that the world has always found very difficult to take. And then, as Jesus himself said, if they hate you, they hated me first, right? They persecuted me. They will persecute you. So that leads to a second question, which is, well, why is that the case? I mean, why was he, if he's just a guru, just a teacher of spiritual truths, just someone showing a new Ethical path. Okay, why would they want to kill him brutally on a cross? In other words, he's more than that. What is the more? And that's what I talk about in the book, the more is the still startling, unnerving, disturbing claim he makes about himself. Right? I and the Father are one. He who sees me is seeing the father. You've heard it said in the Torah. But I say, my son, your sins are forgiven. Unless you love me more than your mother and your father more than your very self, you're not worthy of me. How strange that is. See, it's the claim of Jesus to divinity that led people 2,000 years ago. And I would argue up and down the centuries to stand in opposition to him. As he himself said, either you're with me or you're against me. Well, you see why? Because of the radicality of the claim he's making about himself. That's why, as I argue in the book, I'm not the least bit surprised that authentic Christianity, when it presents itself, will always awaken the opposition of the world. It'll always awaken this frustration and this confusion, this opposition. As they hated me, they will hate you. Jesus said, that's not an incidental observation. That belongs to the heart of the matter.
- [19:54]
A
There's also an important ecclesial point that you really draw out as well, is that the Church is the body of Christ. And so that persecution continues being against Christ and not just some followers of Christ.
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B
Right? The master text then being the Acts of the Apostles. Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? So think of Saul now, before his conversion to become St. Paul is a Christian, is an anti Christian persecutor. He's the forefather, if you want, of all this Christian persecution we see to this day. That's Saul of Tarsus. And then Jesus says to him, saul, why are you persecuting me? My church is not just a collectivity of like minded people. My church is my mystical body. And so as it persecuted Jesus, the church will be persecuted. I mean, I think that's just a basic fact. We can draw certain implications from that. But I think we should acknowledge that truth.
- [20:49]
A
So, Bishop, say a bit about the significance of martyrdom for Christianity, especially in light of Tertullian, one of the Church's ancient writers whom you quote. He famously says, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. Explain the significance of that.
- [21:06]
B
Well, you know, a martyr's a witness. That's what the word means. But a martyr's also a kind of warrior. Now Nonviolent warrior, and a warrior that fights not with the weapons of the world, but with the weapons of the spirit. But see, the martyr is someone who participates in the identity of Jesus in the measure that he or she awakens the hostility of the world and then does battle with the world. Again, not using the world's weapons, but using spiritual weapons does battle. That's what the martyrdom of a martyr represents, and it's the heroic warfare of the mystical body. I remember, I think I had this in the book years ago. I'm in Paris, doctoral student, and at the time there was a lot of talk about imperialism and Western imperialism and the imperialism of the Church and all this. And the man running the seminar was my thesis director, the great Father Michel Corbin. And I remember he said, the only legitimate imperialism is the imperialism of the martyrs. Dead right. It seems to me it is a kind of imperialism. See, because they're speaking for the empire of Christ, which is meant to cover the whole world. Go declare to all nations, go to the ends of the world. Right? So there is an imperial ambition within Christianity, but the only legitimate imperialism is that of the martyrs who witnessed by their death in the face of persecution. I think that's getting the accents right. He wasn't denying imperialism, but he was clarifying the nature of Christian imperialism.
- [22:44]
A
So as a transition to the third section, the what can we do about persecution, which is the concluding section, Bishop, there's a sort of a fundamental potentially quandary here, and it's this. If persecution is inevitable, given the nature of who Christ is and the nature of the Church is the mystical body of Christ, and martyrs are, in tertullian words, the seed of the Church, then why, both theologically and morally, should Christians resist persecutions? Why shouldn't we see it as a positive good and even seek out opportunities for persecution?
- [23:15]
B
Yeah, no, that's going too far. I think of like a Thomas More, and it's beautifully portrayed in man for All Seasons that More tried by every legitimate means to avoid martyrdom. And he said to his wife, you know, this is not the stuff of which martyrs are made. And he meant, you know, look, I'm not running into the arms of my persecutors. I'm not trying to become a martyr. But then. And when he realized there is no other way, there was no other path, that indeed God had brought him to that place, then he said, okay, I accept. Now I'm going to stand and fight, you know. But no, we don't run into the arms of. We expect it. Because of the nature of Christianity. We're not surprised by it, but we don't seek it out or we don't run into the arms of our persecutors. So it's living somewhere in that paradox. I think we wait for God to bring us to that place. We would say in regard to the martyrs, that God indeed brought them to that place finally where they knew they had to take a stand. But, you know, we wanna be as innocent as the doves and clever as serpents too, as we make our way through the world. And you can battle the dark powers in a less dramatic way than martyrdom. There are all kinds of ways that you can oppose the powers. I would let go. Bring me to the place where, okay, now I know I have no choice. So somewhere to live in that space.
- [24:42]
A
Is there also a moral angle on this in this sense that even if I'm willing to accept persecution and perhaps ultimately martyrdom, that still doesn't mean that I shouldn't help protect my neighbors, my brother or sister in Christ?
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B
Yeah, of course.
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A
And the value of their lives.
- [24:56]
B
Of course. Yeah, no, that's right. We should fight the persecution of the church. If God brings us to the point where we say there's no other way to fight it than my own martyrdom, okay. But no, no, we fight in all sorts of more mitigated ways.
- [25:11]
A
So the third section does directly turn to the question, what can we do? And what can we do right now? And you identify six things. One, pray for the persecuted. Two, stay informed. Three, persuade the government to take action. Four, provide aid to the persecuted. Five, respect religious liberty. And six, resist what you call soft religious persecution. So we don't have time to go through all six, but let's look at a few of them in just a bit more detail. So this praying. So, Bishop, given the horrif nature of the persecution that some Christians are experiencing right now, being told to pray may sound sort of offensively inadequate. But you say no, it's the first and most important thing. Why?
- [25:49]
B
Right, of course. I hate this thing. It's in the culture now, you know, the thoughts and prayers. Oh, don't give me thoughts and prayers. And this sort of condescending dismissal that is dead wrong. In the Bible, nothing great ever happens apart from prayer. Prayer is the raising of the mind and heart to God. Prayer is linking my own life to the source of all power and all grace. So without prayer, nothing positive can really be accomplished. Now it's up to God what God's going to do. Prayer is not something magical but it's a basic orientation of one's life whenever you're facing any challenge or difficulty. I do a holy hour every morning, and a lot of it is I'm facing my day to some degree. I feel I'm in control of this or that, and I know what to do. But very often I'll just say, lord, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to solve this. Give me the strength. Give me the guidance. Show me the way. Turn the light on so I can see. Gosh, without that, you'll accomplish nothing. Great. So praying for persecuted Christians? Absolutely. I love to hear it in our parishes. In the prayers of the faithful. We could mention on a pretty regular basis, we pray for our brothers and sisters around the world who are, you know, being persecuted. Super important.
- [27:14]
A
You also make this beautiful metaphysical point that in sort of elevating ourselves to God in prayer, we also descend and be in even stronger community with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, not only through baptism, but because we share that. A common creator.
- [27:28]
B
Quite right. Yeah. If you find your own center in God, you found the center of everybody else. That's just the way it works metaphysically.
- [27:36]
A
So you also note the importance of respecting religious liberty at home. So the question is, how does that help our persecuted brothers and sisters elsewhere?
- [27:44]
B
Because it gives them hope. It's such a precious gift. And we mentioned at the outset my participation in this religious liberty commission, which I was happy to do, because we say it's just a cliche. It's the first freedom. It's the first freedom defined in the Bill of Rights. And so it's the hinge freedom in many ways, all of them. If religious liberty is compromised, the other ones will fall, it seems to me. And it's recognized as coming from God, not as a gift of the government. It comes from God. Well, you have no idea, and I've heard this from people around the world, what a beacon of hope that is for people around the world when they see a country. We're the, you know, the leading superpower in the world and that one of the marks of our polity is religious liberty. That's extraordinarily powerful. If you're living in a place where your liberty to express your faith is limited to the point of death. Well, you need some beacons of hope. And that's. I think one of them is our own commitment to it. So when we let that slide, and we have been, when our report comes out, you'll see a lot of instances of the principle of religious liberty being undermined in our own country. Well, that discourages people around the world. So maintaining it strongly here is super important.
- [28:59]
A
Yeah. And it's been historically demonstrated time and time again that once religious freedom goes, the other freedoms follow.
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B
That's why the totalitarianisms always go after it first. They go after the religions first. Marx was upfront about that. And his followers have not hidden that they go after religion first. So we've got to be vigilant.
- [29:18]
A
Finally, Bishop, as part of your call to resist soft religious persecution, you write, I love this quoting you here, I would encourage Christians to live their faith boldly, unapologetically, even with a bit of swagger. Don't be intimidated into silence or into privatizing your faith. So of course I love these words, but how would you respond to someone who hears that and says, well, Bishop, I just, I can't do that because I don't want anybody to be offended by my Christianity, Certainly don't want them to feel like I'm imposing on them.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah, well, as John Paul II said, the church never imposes. The church proposes. Right. So it's not a question of imposition like I'm compelling. You go back to our own First Amendment though, that we don't want the state establishing religion. I don't want that. I don't think any right minded American wants that. But the second part of that is Congress will make no law prohibiting or restricting the free exercise of religion. Well, that means much more than private worship or whispering my convictions among fellow Christians. No, the free exercise means free exercise in the public square, able to announce who I am. Non, violently and not imposing and any of those bad things. Think of Pope Francis, who would often rail against proselytizing. And if you define it that way as a kind of a brow beating, aggressive approach. Yeah, I'm against proselytizing. That would be at least kin to an establishment of religion. But having said that, the free exercise of religion is a good thing and we shouldn't be cowardly. And under this supposed rubric of the wall of separation, which is not in the Federalist Papers, it's not in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution under that rubric to be sort of cowed into privacy. We religious people should resist that vehemently.
- [31:15]
A
Amen. And finally, before turning to our listener question, especially as the founder of Word on Fire, what relationship do you see between the work of evangelization and the work of combating persecution? Are they connected in any way?
- [31:27]
B
Well, yeah, I Mean, thank God, in our country, we have religious liberty that enables me to evangelize. The very fact that word on fire has come to be and has flourished in our country, that's one of the great blessings of American democracy. Thank God for it. And one of the ways that the opponents of the faith, you know, will express themselves is precisely limiting the capacity to evangelize. I think in some parts of the world, you know, maybe. Maybe will allow you privately to worship, but you can't call people to conversion. You can't evangelize. So, no, no, religious liberty is essential to healthy evangelization.
- [32:15]
A
It is now time for a listener question. Today we have Declan in England who is asking about whether we should reconsider the prominence of the crucifix in Catholicism, given that Christ has conquered death once and for all.
- [32:28]
B
This is Declan in England. Bishop, the crucifixion itself tends to be presented really horribly. It's just a really awful event. Do you think that's possibly counterproductive and off putting? Because surely it is actually a success story. Jesus won and he went up to heaven, and then he was back two days later. So should we present it more positively? Thanks. Yeah. You know, it's a kind of a classic question in a way, in Protestant Catholic conversations because the Protestant faiths tend to put a cross without the corpus in their churches. We tend to put, you know, the cross with the corpus. You know, I don't know any Catholic that doesn't believe in the resurrection, that doesn't understand, of course, Jesus, who was crucified, rose from the dead. So, I mean, to see the corpus on the cross as some kind of cult of death, or that we're preoccupied with the death of Jesus. I mean, I'm with Paul. I know one thing. Christ and him crucified. The fact that we see that, we boldly demonstrate Christ crucified shows our faith in the resurrection that we're not afraid to show. Yeah, God went all the way to God forsaken us to save us as an expression of love. Right. Now, you know, if someone wants to display a cross without the corpus, I. No big problem with that. And sure, it's a sign of the victory of the cross, maybe. So I don't really have a. I don't think it's worth, you know, going to the mat over this question. Cause I don't know any Catholic that thinks, oh, wait a minute. Didn't he rise from the dead? What do you mean, he's just dead? I mean, I don't think any Catholic would hold that, you know, but I guess I'd be Pauline. There is, I know, one thing. Christ sent him crucified. And I want to I boldly show that to the world.
- [34:19]
A
Beautiful biblical warrant for the. Well, thanks so much, Declan, for reaching out to us. If you would like to ask Bishop Barron a question for a future Word on Fire show, please visit askbishopbarron.com again, that's askbishopbarron.com and we always love to hear from you. We're out of time, Bishop.
- [34:36]
B
All right. Well, good conversation.
- [34:38]
A
Yeah. Looking forward to the next one. Thank you.
- [34:39]
B
All right. Thanks, man.
- [34:41]
A
That does it for us today. And thanks for joining us on the Word on Fire show. If you're interested in learning more about how Word on Fire can help you grow closer to Christ, become a better evangelist with and for others, and work for the common good, consider joining the Word On Fire Institute. Check us out at institute.WordPress.org that's institute.WordPress.org we'll see you next time.