Are Visma's Tactics Pressuring, or Helping, Pogačar? | Tour de France 2025 Stage 18 | THEMOVE

Summary

Podcast Summary: THEMOVE Episode – "Are Visma's Tactics Pressuring, or Helping, Pogačar? | Tour de France 2025 Stage 18"

Release Date: July 24, 2025

In this episode of THEMOVE, host Lance Armstrong delves deep into the strategic maneuvers of Team Visma during Stage 18 of the 2025 Tour de France. Joined by cycling veterans Bradley Wiggins, George Hincapie, and cycling analyst Spencer Martin, the discussion revolves around the implications of Visma's tactics on the reigning champion, Tadej Pogačar, and the broader dynamics of the race.

---

1. Team Jayco Alula's Impressive Victory

The episode kicks off with an analysis of Ben O'Connor's triumphant performance in Stage 18, marking Jayco Alula as a formidable contender in the Tour.

• Spencer Martin highlights the significance of the win:
  “Now it's a big deal for Jacob Alula today to come off with a win. Three days to go.” [02:22]

• Bradley Wiggins commends O'Connor's perseverance:
  “When he wins, he wins big.” [02:01]

The team’s strategy not only secured a stage win but also placed O'Connor in the top 10 of the General Classification (GC), underscoring the depth and resilience of Jayco Alula.

---

2. Analyzing Team Visma's Strategies

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Team Visma's tactical approach and its impact on Pogačar.

• Lance Armstrong expresses bewilderment over Visma's vocal strategy:
  “We've spent so much time these three weeks talking about their tactics, questioning their tactics.” [00:00]

• Bradley Wiggins questions the rationale behind their targeted strategies:
  “One of the things I can't work out is why they're so vocal about what they're going to do.” [16:31]

The team scrutinizes Visma's focus on cracking Pogačar during Stage 18, debating whether these tactics are pressuring him constructively or hindering his performance.

---

3. Race Dynamics: Time Cuts and Groupetto Tactics

The conversation delves into the complexity of managing time cuts and how it influences race strategies.

• George Hincapie explains the challenges faced by sprinters and the Groupetto:
  “They have to be mindful of the time cut.” [03:07]

• Bradley Wiggins discusses how the front group's dynamics aided Visma:
  “They went balls deep on the medal end, but then on that descent... the Groupetto would have been going faster, wouldn't they?” [03:43]

This segment sheds light on the often "secret science" behind maintaining time cuts and how teams maneuver to stay within limits without expending excessive energy.

---

4. Emerging Contenders: Oscar Onley and Florian Lipowitz

The episode spotlights rising stars Oscar Onley and Florian Lipowitz, analyzing their performances and potential impact on future stages.

• George Hincapie reminisces about Lipowitz's past performances:
  “He was higher in the GC. I think he ended up fourth in that Tour.” [13:11]

• Spencer Martin comments on Onley's strategic ride:
  “He's done it on every climb this tour.” [22:24]

The duo's consistent performances are positioning them as key players in the race for the podium, with discussions around their strategies and team support.

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5. The State of Professional Cycling: Team Budgets and Sponsorships

A critical analysis unfolds regarding the financial dynamics within professional cycling, focusing on team budgets, sponsorship dependencies, and the potential need for structural reforms.

• Lance Armstrong draws parallels with other major sports, advocating for a franchise-based model:
  “We should franchise this thing where you're building franchise value... then you're not as dependent on begging for a new title sponsor.” [42:18]

• George Hincapie highlights the disparity in team budgets:
  “Lotto and Inter Marche... have to maximize their budgets because... Pagarca would take up half of that budget.” [44:34]

The panel discusses the sustainability of current team structures, the concentration of talent in affluent teams, and the implications for competitive balance and the sport's future.

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6. Looking Ahead: Final Stages and Potential Outcomes

Anticipating the remaining stages, the hosts speculate on possible scenarios, including weather impacts, strategic shifts, and the race's conclusion.

• Spencer Martin anticipates continued breakaways and strategic battles:
  “The morale of the team is going to be super high... battling out for another win.” [15:01]

• George Hincapie warns of unpredictable elements affecting GC contenders:
  “You never know what's going to happen.” [37:35]

Discussions also touch upon the final stages in Paris, potential weather disruptions, and their effects on sprint finishes and overall GC standings.

---

7. Interactive Segment: Trivia and Audience Engagement

Towards the end, Lance Armstrong engages listeners with trivia questions related to the Tour de France, encouraging audience participation and interaction.

• Trivia Question Example:
  “What feature of this climb makes it unique among other climbs used in the Tour?” [38:22]

Listeners are invited to submit answers via the show's website for a chance to win prizes, fostering a more interactive and engaging listener experience.

---

8. Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the day's discussions, emphasizing the need for strategic adaptability and the evolving nature of professional cycling.

• Lance Armstrong underscores the importance of modernizing the sport:
  “It's time to get real... the sport of cycling has tons of history, but we need to manage... it's time to be real.” [45:56]

The episode concludes with anticipation for the upcoming stages, leaving listeners eager for the unfolding drama of the Tour de France.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “When he wins, he wins big.”
  Bradley Wiggins [02:01]

• “We've spent so much time these three weeks talking about their tactics, questioning their tactics.”
  Lance Armstrong [00:00]

• “One of the things I can't work out is why they're so vocal about what they're going to do.”
  Bradley Wiggins [16:31]

• “It's time to get real... the sport of cycling has tons of history, but we need to manage...”
  Lance Armstrong [45:56]

---

This episode of THEMOVE offers an in-depth exploration of the strategic intricacies shaping the 2025 Tour de France, providing listeners with expert insights and fostering a deeper understanding of professional cycling dynamics.

Transcript

[Lance Armstrong]

We can't go to break without talking about Bismo. This is just. We've spent so much time these three weeks talking about their tactics, questioning their tactics. As we watch the race today, I think we all sit here collectively going, what are we doing? It's maybe a better. It's a great question for Johan later on in your show with him. So, Bradley, this is a real head scratcher for me.

[Bradley Wiggins]

One of the things I can't work is why they're so vocal about what they're going to do.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And when they're going to do it. Like they've targeted. They keep, you know, pinned this stage, doesn't they, as.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. They said semi publicly that the whole Tour, their whole strategy was about cracking Pagacha today. Right.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Why would you say that, though?

[Lance Armstrong]

I don't know.

[George Hincapie]

Why would you say that?

[Lance Armstrong]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to the Move podcast, brought to you each and every day by Ketone IQ. Talking about stage 18, Alan. What? What do we do? Stage 18. From VIF to Courchevel. Col de la Loz. From VIF to CourcheVELs. Oh, love it. Joined by Sir Bradley Wiggins, Mr. Georgine Caffey and the professor. Thanks, Mr. Martin. Who has agreed to stay around another week. Thank you so much, professor. No longer 15 teams in the race that haven't won a stage. Ben o', Connor, exceptional performance today. Jayco Alula is. Was one of those 15 teams. We're now down to 14, but what a ride. Yeah, fantastic.

[Bradley Wiggins]

You know what?

[Lance Armstrong]

Better give it to him.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yeah, absolutely. Perseverance. Throughout this tour, he was lying on the ground on stage one, but that crashed towards the final. He had some bad days after that.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

But this last week, I mean, he's been to the break most days and had a crack every day. And today he got his reward and great for the team. But when he wins, he wins big.

[Spencer Martin]

He does win big. Yeah, yeah. And he must love the Alps because he's won in teams before. And today we're going to try to get Steve coming to Cummings to join us and talk about their strategy today. But massive, massive win now, 14 teams without a win. So it's a big deal for Jacob Alula today to come off with a win. Three days to go. Two days ago before the finish of.

[George Hincapie]

The Tour de France, second great grand. Second straight Grand Tour where they've won the Queen stage at the Giro. They had Chris Hamilton, I believe.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, that was a big one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

So both got long femurs.

[George Hincapie]

Huge femurs. On these guys. Yeah, it's got to help what that does.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Tall guys.

[Lance Armstrong]

Longer levers.

[Bradley Wiggins]

No, it's an Australian thing.

[George Hincapie]

Adaptation to stay above the heat. On the ground only.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. George, Give, give, just give. Steve, I know he was busy because there's still, if you watch the stage, I mean, the conditions were turned brutal at the end. Cold temps in the mid-40s, raining, occasional hail. So he's at the finish line.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he's waiting for all the guys.

[Lance Armstrong]

Waiting on some of the guys to come up, which we'll get to another question we have, because it's everywhere we looked. We were trying to find the time cut. And for those who don't know, every day there is a time cut. We talked about it with the time trial specifically. But day like today, I mean, certain riders, certainly the sprinters, the Groupetto, they have to be mindful of the time cut.

[Spencer Martin]

They made it within like six minutes. They had plenty of time.

[Lance Armstrong]

So then. And that's a whole other discussion about how, I mean, that's kind of a secret science there of how they know how to manage that time cut so they don't miss it.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

They were also aided a lot today by the way the front group raced.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

So they went balls deep on the, on the medal end, but then on that descent and in the valley before the last climb, you know, the Groupetta would have been going faster, wouldn't they?

[Spencer Martin]

They would have made time on them because they're working together. Full gas to stay within the time limit, to not have to go full gas up the last climb.

[Bradley Wiggins]

It's harder sometimes, that Groupetto, isn't it?

[George Hincapie]

For sure.

[Spencer Martin]

That's right.

[Lance Armstrong]

We'll get into all the action. Today's show brought to you by Zwift. So Zwift recently rolled out its new Cog and Click product. Got it sitting right. You can use it on almost any bike you already own. It doesn't even matter where you bought the bike. Basically works on, as I said, any bike and it still feels like you're on a top end. Smart trainer Zwift ready trainers are available from all top manufacturers. Wahoo, Garmin Elite, Jet Black Decathlon, etc. Setting a new benchmark for indoor training. All Zwift ready trainers come with the new Zwift Cog and Click installed, making them ready to ride from the box. No extras needed. Super simple. And no need to remove your cassette. And did you know, check this out, that now outdoor rides count towards your Zwift fitness score and trends. All you need to do is Link your bike computer to the Zwift companion app. That's huge. I'm getting credit for riding outside. Hey, gee, George's getting a lot of credit.

[Spencer Martin]

That's right. Friends of Zwift also levels climbing every day. My Zwift level is climbing every day.

[Lance Armstrong]

And your son got here last night.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

Now we're really done riding.

[Spencer Martin]

You should ride with us today. We're gonna go for a ride after the show.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, no. Years ago, Enzo would come out and ride with us and.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. Not anymore.

[Spencer Martin]

I can't. I can't keep but staring at the fin you got going on, it's gotten more and more pronounced over the last couple weeks. It's quite impressive.

[Lance Armstrong]

I got approval from Sir Bradley to. I had a hat on and I went to the bathroom and I took. And I looked in the mirror and I took the hat off. And you know what? I don't care. But it's been a long tour.

[Spencer Martin]

It has.

[Lance Armstrong]

In a way. It's gone. It's gone. It seems like it's gone fast, but it's. It's still three weeks, right? It just. It just grinds on you, you know? You want me to get going with. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Because I want to call Steve. He's waiting for us.

[Lance Armstrong]

Oh, sorry. That's right. You know, we have a special guest and he's sitting around going and waiting me to just. Whatever. Also today, brought to you by Ekoi. We're pleased to welcome our new helmet sponsor, the brand Ekoi. Ekoi is a leading brand in Europe, specializing in cycling equipment from head to toe. It is one of the few brands that truly develops its products in close collaboration with pro athletes across all disciplines. Road cycling, triathlon, gravel and mountain biking. If you're watching the Tour, you've seen them in the race. They've got four teams in the race. Israel Premier Tech, Lotto Destiny, Archaea, BNB Hotels. Kevin Becklin. He hung in there today. They showed him a lot on the race. I like this kit. And Kofidis Equi also equips numerous riders with shoes. And check this out. They even have the new Equi PW8 specific shoe integrated with PWA pedals. Getting a lot of questions about this shoe pedal setup. If you ride a lot, Equi products offer unbeatable value for your money. The entire Equoi website is currently on sale until the end of July with discounts of up to 60%. Head on over to Ecoi Ekoi. Ekoi.com use the code. The move 151 5. The move 1 5. Last one before we call Steve Cummings. Big day for him. Big day for him. My friends over in Steamboat Springs, Honey Stinger. Listen, they didn't invent the Stroopwafel, but they certainly invented the energy waffle. So it's no surprise that Honey Stinger is the first and only energy waffle to launch new peanut butter flavors. I mean, this is like a chapter out of. Yes. Peanut butter, peanut butter chocolate, and peanut butter strawberry deliver both the fuel and the delicious taste you've come to expect from our waffles. So whether you're out there grinding on the bike or preparing for a club championship, the delicious taste of Honey Stingers Energy waffles, chews, gels and bars are a great fit for any activity. Head over to honeystinger.com the move. Check out all their products, including my favorite and one. Honestly, I was a little involved in creating the. The. The. The Honey Stinger waffle. I mean, it's game changer. Game changer. Our listeners get 25 off your first order. Again, honey stinger.com/the. The move. Boom. I got that right. You want to call Steve?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

That's a big deal.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, it's a big, big DJ. Steve O. Cummings. We were roommates, teammates in 2006.

[Lance Armstrong]

Speakerphone.

[Spencer Martin]

Bradley was teammates.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Grew up with him.

[Spencer Martin]

Steve O.

[Steve Cummings]

How's it going, man?

[Spencer Martin]

Good. How are you? Congratulations.

[Steve Cummings]

Thank you.

[Lance Armstrong]

We got.

[Steve Cummings]

We're in the Corey with Mauro and Plappy.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, say hello. Say hello to the guys. How. How Nat, Say hello.

[Steve Cummings]

You're on speaker, man.

[Spencer Martin]

All right. Well, how was it out there, boys? It looked miserable.

[Lance Armstrong]

It was miserable.

[Spencer Martin]

Have you guys done that climb before, the top part?

[Lance Armstrong]

No, no.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, we. I did it last year. It was just brutal. That climb was insane. So, Steve O. Walk us through today's strategy. Everything that went that it went down. You were known as like quite the breakaway specialist, always popping off big wins late in grand tours. I'm sure that had a lot to do with the today's strategy. Team strategy. But you guys went in. The Queen stage of the Tour de France is an amazing, amazing win. Walk us through it.

[Steve Cummings]

More to do with.

[Spencer Martin]

But no, I appreciate that.

[Steve Cummings]

The main thing, the main point was like obviously the. There was a lot going on in the race. King of the mountains, sprints. The sprint was after 23k and then after that there was kind of a flatter section. So we just asked the sprinter guys, Mauro Plappi. We wanted Plappy in the front with Ben and the rest of it. If big group going and Ben wasn't in, then we had to try to close and the guys did fantastic. And then Benny had. Obviously he made. It was really efficient. He just kind of went once and.

[Lance Armstrong]

He was in front.

[Steve Cummings]

And then, yeah, the group just got smaller and smaller, which is not tactics, just legs, as you know. And then in the final, he also had the big kahunas to try in the valley and kind of rode off the. The battle for GC and yeah, I.

[Lance Armstrong]

Mean, you wrote great. All the. Steve is Lance. I thought he was. I've never ridden that climb up to the. Obviously we 2005, I think it was we finished up in Courchevel. But this last piece, that's somewhat of a new addition. Just watching on tv, you honestly weren't sure. It's, you know, at one point, at three minutes, you know how steep it is. You've got four or five K to go. That. That is not a foregone conclusion that he stays away. I thought he rode incredible all the way to the finish line. It was. It was amazing to watch. Yeah.

[Steve Cummings]

Nice. He's. Have we seen in the past he's like a persistent, if you like. And he. Oh, man, he just measured his effort to perfection. And like you say, if you. You're never sure because of the gradients, because if you do blow, you just.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, but in part, yeah, exactly.

[Steve Cummings]

So. And it is really steep like the other side. We're just descending down now into Marybowl and in 2023, I think.

[Lance Armstrong]

Nope, not. It could be some alpine cell.

[Steve Cummings]

This is 11.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. A lot of people on their cell phones up there.

[Steve Cummings]

You still there, guys?

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yes, we're here.

[George Hincapie]

We're here.

[Steve Cummings]

Is that my signal or is that you?

[Bradley Wiggins]

Keep talking.

[Spencer Martin]

Keep talking.

[Lance Armstrong]

Steve, you're live.

[George Hincapie]

You're live to the next thing.

[Steve Cummings]

This the thing. I want my money back.

[Lance Armstrong]

This. Is this an Elon Musk thing? You know what? This is what happens. You know, you get blamed.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, great epic stage.

[Steve Cummings]

We were. I think we were lucky with the weather because there's a bit of forecast of rain after Glandon and we didn't get until the final. So that was good as well.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So the pressure's off, you guys, and I'm sure probably have somebody in the breakaway again tomorrow.

[Lance Armstrong]

Probably.

[Spencer Martin]

Congratulations.

[Steve Cummings]

Thank you, man. We try tomorrow and then stage 20 is going to be a big party as well.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Okay, cool. Steve O. Thank you so much and thank you. Good luck. Good luck, guys. We'll be watching Appreciate it. Okay, thanks, guys. Thanks, guys. All right. Bye. Bye. Cheers. Cheers. Bye.

[Lance Armstrong]

Spencer, you were in. Course. Ben o' Connor featured prominently in the. In the Netflix show. And so he's been out there and he's had. We were going down his list of results. He's had a hell of a career.

[George Hincapie]

Really good writer. I. I also think he kind of got done dirty in that documentary. I could make a documentary about us and make us look bad, I would imagine. But he's one, two.

[Lance Armstrong]

In three, two, one. It's probably starting. I mean, you know what I mean? Sorry.

[George Hincapie]

Won two Tour stages, if you remember. 20, 21 Titania. That was another hard alpine stage.

[Spencer Martin]

Very similar win as today.

[George Hincapie]

Very similar. He was higher in the gc. I think he ended up fourth in that Tour. But he. That's kind of what you think of when you think of Ben o' Connor that. That fourth place the Tour.

[Bradley Wiggins]

He was second at the Worlds when.

[George Hincapie]

He'S second at the Worlds last year. Clipped off the front, and then he was fourth at the Giro. And 20. This was last year, fourth at the Giro, second at the Vuelta, second at the World. It's good results right there. The big question I have is, why did decathlon? I just don't. They just seem to let him go. And same thing with Perry Poncho. It's like, these are two of the hardest stage ones of the Tour. Both riders used to be on decathlon. Decathlon's beefing up. They keep talking about, we're the new super team. It's like, well, all your riders are winning the hardest stages and you guys aren't winning any stages.

[Bradley Wiggins]

I think it was an obvious move for him going to Australian team. Jerry and the team there. Jayco will desperate for Australian success, I think, you know, and they've kept to the heritage of their team by having Australian riders. And it's paid off for them, you know, it really has. And if they're going to pay big money for a GC rider, they'll pay for one of their own.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[George Hincapie]

He's also a valuable GC rider. Like, not just because of the results, but when he falls out of the gc, he still keeps trying to get into.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

I mean, here, a team like Jayco Alula, right? You come into the Tour and you say, okay, what? Before the start say, what does success look like? Right. Success for them, I would imagine, looks like a stage win and a rider in the top 10.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

They achieved both those things today.

[Spencer Martin]

Right.

[Lance Armstrong]

Ben o' Connor got stage one and moved into the top ten. Right. He sits in tenth place now. So that is a hell of a win for the team, for him, for all of it.

[Spencer Martin]

And as we always typically see in the third week of a Grand Tour, you typically see the same guys in the breakaway. I wouldn't be surprised if I see him and a couple of others of his teammates in the breakaway tomorrow battling it out. The morale of the team is going to be super high. The pressure's off that now they can just have fun the rest of the race. And would not be surprised if I see them battling out for another win.

[George Hincapie]

Well, those two guys in the car who were just talking to Plapp and Schmidt, I would look for them on stage 20. I heard a funny story about PLP. This was a few stages ago in the neutral zone. There was like, Aussies on the side of the road and he's like, all excited. He's like, oh, you guys are legend. So great. But he's not paying attention. And he overlapped wheels and crashed the neutral zone.

[Lance Armstrong]

Jesus Christ.

[Spencer Martin]

Apparently Poke Chart crashed in the neutral zone today.

[George Hincapie]

Well, he said he was following the Visma car and they checked him and he went right.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Did they do that on purpose?

[George Hincapie]

That would be a little aggressive. Is that like marginal gains? Now you just look for the other riders on the road.

[Lance Armstrong]

You know, we talked a lot here about Ben o' Connor and his fantastic race at the. At the front of the field. We can't go to break without talking about bisma. This is just. We've spent so much time these three weeks talking about their tactics, questioning their tactics. As we watch the race today, I think we all sit here collectively going, what are we doing? I. It's maybe a better. It's a great question for Johan later on in your show with him. So Bradley is a head. This is a real head scratcher for me.

[Bradley Wiggins]

One of the things I can't work is why they're so vocal about what they're going to do.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And when they're going to do it. But they've targeted. They keep, you know, pinned this stage, doesn't they, as.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. They said semi publicly that the whole Tour, their whole strategy was about cracking Pigacha today. Right.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Why would you say that, though?

[Lance Armstrong]

I don't.

[George Hincapie]

Why. Why would you say that? Do you know what Pagacha rode the final climb at?

[Bradley Wiggins]

1500. Van, was it?

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. 5.5 watts per kilo, which is based on the numbers he said to our friend Peter Attia in his interview. That's zone two for him so.

[Bradley Wiggins]

But they look like it.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, like now he's fine for tomorrow too. It starts to compound on itself like.

[Spencer Martin]

Which he's there at the. At the Tour Peter at Thea. I just.

[George Hincapie]

I saw that last night actually.

[Lance Armstrong]

Over there.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he's over there. We should call him. Get a little inside a scoop shout out.

[Lance Armstrong]

I did have a question. We talked about this on the ride the other day. Maybe it's. We'll talk about it on a less exciting day or a non mountain day which we're running out of time to do. But I just had a question around this whole nutrition plan and the way that the guys are consuming so much fuel. Well maybe we'll park that for Saturday but. Yeah, but why by the way too when you talk about a VAM of 1500. This is what I do know about climbing and VAM is it's much easier to have a great VAM performance on a really steep climb. I mean it could. This is. Was an incredibly steep climb. So to have it there. I mean he's just chilling. He's ready.

[George Hincapie]

He was chilling. He was bored on this guy.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. And they're riding and. And Tadi's back there. He's got two guys still with him.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. But at the same time Visma, they're doing everything they can. It might not look like the best tactics but what other options do they have other than going for stage wins? I'd love to see some of these guys get a free card. Like all of a sudden Sepkus has creeped into the top 10.

[George Hincapie]

No, that's fake news.

[Spencer Martin]

It was fake news.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, they were incorrect.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh man.

[George Hincapie]

25 minutes or something out of the top 10.

[Bradley Wiggins]

I mean what they could do about it is stop telling us about it, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And just, just leave it to the road and surprise us and surprise Tade.

[Lance Armstrong]

And what they could also do is do nothing.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

Do.

[Bradley Wiggins]

They haven't tried that one yet.

[Lance Armstrong]

They haven't tried that yet. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Still on here as top 10 do absolutely nothing.

[George Hincapie]

Ben O' Connor 29 minutes back. 10th place, Jordan Jigat 32 minutes back. Supku's 12th, 49 minutes back.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay, I got.

[George Hincapie]

Are you looking at 2025 or 2024?

[Spencer Martin]

No, I'm at stage 18.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. And.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh no, that's the stage.

[Lance Armstrong]

I just, I don't hate the approach of just saying we're not going to do anything. Yeah. Let the race play out.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

Put the pressure. I mean look, time's up right at this point I think we're all we're just kind of organizing our sock drawer here. But tomorrow is. And we're going to talk about and break down tomorrow. Stage on the second half of the show is a very difficult day. It's a short day. I would just do nothing to. You know what? You got the yellow jersey. You want to win the Tour, friends, you figure this out. We're just going to chill right here.

[Spencer Martin]

Or just go all in for the stage one.

[Lance Armstrong]

But don't put your guys on the front and right tempo for today. Poker to see to fast forward to what he does at the finish line, which.

[Spencer Martin]

Which is done day in and day.

[Lance Armstrong]

I would have bet my life he'd have done that. Right? He's sitting back. I said it the other day, like, he's sitting back there, like, what are these guys doing?

[Spencer Martin]

What are they.

[Lance Armstrong]

They think they're coming for my crown. Watch this.

[George Hincapie]

And allegedly the. The strategy was put everyone on the front hard over the Madeline. He can't eat and drink on the climb, and he can't eat and drink on the descent. But then why have Mateo clip off and go for the stage win? That's where it loses.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't think he clipped off. I think.

[Bradley Wiggins]

How do you have to go to stop someone eating and drinking?

[George Hincapie]

I mean, you know, I guess if they have to keep.

[Bradley Wiggins]

I mean, that is such an unrealistic. It's very unrealistic.

[George Hincapie]

Would that be something? If you've never raced a bike, perhaps you would.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Well, yeah, as. As we. We've heard, YouTubers are pitching in.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, these expert YouTubers that have never been in the trenches.

[George Hincapie]

In 2022, he couldn't take his hands off the bars, and that's why he cracked.

[Lance Armstrong]

All right, we'll be back in 2 and 32. Okay, everybody, welcome back to the move. I tell you what is, before the break, we sort of talked about Visma and questioned their tactics. And Tade is just so. So it's just so much better here in 2025. So I, I think that race is over, but what is not over? And. And this isn't just a level set for the. For the viewer or the listener. You know, there's a lot of ways to win in cycling. Obviously, winning the Tour de France is the ultimate. But winning a stage, right, There are many riders that win one stage. Their entire entire career is made. Teams have team interest. They want to win. Team gc, there's the other jerseys. The other one is finishing on the podium. It's a huge deal. You know, it's the big ceremony In Paris, you're up there with obviously the yellow jersey in second place. I mean it's a really big deal. Fast forward to and we've been teasing this out and kind of watching this and really admiring this kid who came out of nowhere, at least for me. Oscar Omley, including Florian Lipowitz. Two guys that are really emerging. This race for third, I think. Where Spencer, where do we have it right now? It's. It's down to 20 seconds. Oscar Onley, by the way too, if you watch the race today, got dropped on the Matalan. I don't know if that was no.

[Spencer Martin]

Lipowitz got dropped on the Matalan but so did Onley.

[Lance Armstrong]

Only was well behind and. And I don't know if if that was calculated or if he was just having a bad patch. But he came back with a vengeance. Ended up catching up and then dropping Lipowitz. Anyways. The race for third is now separated by 22 seconds.

[George Hincapie]

When do you see. I wonder if it was calculated because. Did you see his.

[Lance Armstrong]

I felt like they came, but it was almost like, hey, I'm gonna.

[Bradley Wiggins]

He's not. He's measuring his effort.

[Lance Armstrong]

That's incredible for a young rider.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And keep it in the back of his mind A to B as fast as possible. When he gets dropped, he measures his effort so he stays consistent to the line. He's done it on every climb this tour.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And he's not gone into the red that much. And tried to stay with him to the. To the. To the detriment of him exploding. And. And that's. It's been genius the way he's written.

[Spencer Martin]

Not only that, but he had three teammates with him.

[Lance Armstrong]

Did a great job today.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. I mean that they. They did an incredible team ride today. Also. Leapowitz losing about a minute today or so to only. But was essentially on his own from the Madeline up until 5k to go to the top of the code of the Low. So he burnt a lot of matches today. And I'm wondering if the team is kind of scratching their head going, oh, tomorrow is going to be a bit tough to hold on to this third spot.

[George Hincapie]

I wonder if that's what picnic strategy was trying to avoid. Because Lipowitz tries to go with them. The leaders win because it was Kuss Vinegar Pugachar. He tries to go. He gets dropped. He's stuck in no man's land behind. Onley's just with his team like they're like a freight train going through that valley.

[Spencer Martin]

And then think how much more I don't think so. I think there's no way they could have predicted the situation. What happened in the valley, in between the melan and the cold, it was essentially the top four GC guys just looking at each other. Nobody's going to pull. They had three guys up the road.

[George Hincapie]

Couldn't they have predicted that though?

[Spencer Martin]

I don't. I mean, you would think, but you could. You couldn't predict risky. You couldn't predict Pogar losing his top lieutenants. You couldn't predict. Predict Vindo losing his top lieutenants. So he would. You would guess the way the race has gone, they'd be with one or two guys. Those guys would ride. They weren't. They were on their own. None of them would collaborate. So they took a risk and it worked out for them. But there's no way they could have predicted that.

[George Hincapie]

You say losing his top lieutenants, but one of his top lieutenants rode away from him. I still don't understand that. Why did Matteo go up the road? That to me that invalidates the whole. That was a mistake.

[Bradley Wiggins]

He should never have gone up the road.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I don't think so. I think. What else can they do? At least he pulls hard in the valley. Can hope. They can hope. Pull hard in the valley to do more work for poker chart to drop them. At least that's not. He's not going to do any damage in the valley. I've done it. It's like 4 or 5% value.

[George Hincapie]

But then why attack on the climb?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, at least have Jurgensen in the front in case Vinda goes on this unbelievable day and can maybe pop poker chart. Unlikely. Obviously never happens. Catch up to Jurgensen, make a difference, but did nothing. None of that ended up.

[Bradley Wiggins]

None of that happened.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

And by the way, it was Oscar Onley ended up when the stage finished, put a minute 39 into Lipowitz. So. A lot more than a minute.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

This is going to be close tomorrow's.

[Spencer Martin]

And there's blood in the water now. They smell it.

[Lance Armstrong]

That's right. And. And it also means that. And we haven't seen a. A final stage in Paris like this one. But if. If what we think what might happen happens. I mean, this is going to be a race.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Do you know the key to. To Lipovich's podium is going to be at this race. It's going to be Rollich. Do you see how easy he was coming at the finish line?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

He's. He's going to be his biggest asset. If they can ride together a bit more them too. Yeah, I think that's going to be the key to him getting the podium.

[Spencer Martin]

But let me ask you this. I. I think was not. Was it not a mistake from the board directors being Lipowitz is a young guy, get it. He's, you know, all in adrenaline catches back up to the main group. Shouldn't they have been like, okay, you got Roglich with you. Just recover because only's coming. You go on your own in that valley. Yeah, they all know that valley. That valley would just, just crush you. It crushed me. And I was going easy last year before the climb. I felt like they should have held him back there and stayed in the group, recovered and then started the climb kind of new.

[Bradley Wiggins]

It's funny because Bernard Eisel came up in the team car and he was laughing and joking with relics when he was handing bottles out and stuff. Yeah, it's a strange one.

[George Hincapie]

Do you think he, like, the time he gained in the valley is less than the time he would have, like, he would have lost less time if he just stayed in the group?

[Spencer Martin]

I believe so. Not only that, but he would be better tomorrow. I mean, he put in a huge effort today. He was essentially on his own for the last half of the race.

[George Hincapie]

Should they have dropped Roglich back on the madeleine for him?

[Spencer Martin]

No, I think. No, I don't think so. I think at that point when he got dropped on the medal and they're thinking Roglic can maybe pop into the top three in the overall. So that was an okay call, in my, my, my opinion. But letting him go off the front in the valley and burning all those matches before such a hard climb. 25, 26 kilometer climb. I don't know. That was a mistake, in my opinion.

[George Hincapie]

He was also chasing. If you watched on the descent, the moto was like, basically it was like Pagachar was on a motor pacing session. And then Lipowitz, the camera was behind him. So he's getting no, no draft from that moto while he's catching them, which must have drained him.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

A camera moto.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. It was like it looked like they were training with a moto. Like that's how close the camera was.

[Lance Armstrong]

Well, you know, you get a little older and you. And you figure out how to convince him to not film from behind. You convince him to film from the front.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

100. Well, if that were me, I'd be like, not only that, this angle's a lot better. Come over. Just. There's ways to play that game.

[Spencer Martin]

We've all Done. The metal and I mean the motos can't really go much faster than the bikes on that thing. It's straight. You know, the corners are, are pretty, pretty nice corners where you can haul ass through. So those motos are probably going as fast as they possibly can. Anyway.

[Lance Armstrong]

As I said at the top of the show, today's show each and every day presented by Ketone IQ. Really mixing up the game over there at Ketone IQ they've got obviously the classic shot, 10 grams of ketones. Now they have Ketone IQ plus caffeine, 5 grams of ketones a little less and 100 milligrams of caffeine all based and made from green tea. Two stage energy. A lot of science and research going into this placebo control study with trained athletes. Ketone IQ boosted average sprint power by 19%, peak power by 13, cut fatigue by 10 and spiked blood ketones 5x. Speaking of Peter Attia, I saw an article that Dr. Attia wrote the other day and a lot of work going into ketones and, and mental clarity, mental, mental fatigue. I think this is a, is an interesting frontier for the folks over at Ketone iq.

[Spencer Martin]

And a little known fact, if you're trying to grow a mohawk, it does wonders for your mohawk.

[Lance Armstrong]

And as you get later in life, two things. Don't forget to feed the animals. Number one. Number two, this helps. You know what, there was so much hate early on. I'm embracing and I did a little hood fake yesterday. I put some stuff in it and put it down. I thought everybody look. Oh yeah, he listened to us. No I didn't.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Do cats drink ketones.

[Lance Armstrong]

Take your. Speaking of ketones, take your shot. Get 20 off your [e-mail] themove ketone.com the move folks. That's why you do not fast forward through the commercials because you would have missed George making fun of me. Last one of the day. Heating up. It actually didn't heat up at the tour. It has been heating up in moments. That's the beauty of the Tour, right? You get a couple days ago they're talking about the heat. Now they're up finishing at a summit finish in the mid-40s. Hailing. Yeah, yeah, it's a Tour de France.

[Bradley Wiggins]

We've got no, no worry about heat in Aspen at the moment, have we?

[Lance Armstrong]

And, and I was starting to say we've been, been sweating here but it's actually, it's cooled off quite a bit here. Of course we are at 8, 000ft but nonetheless you go out there and Exercise. I was in the gym this morning.

[Spencer Martin]

Very similar to the top of CODA Lowe's today. 40 degrees and raining. Yeah, that's colder than it is here. But yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

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[Spencer Martin]

Oh.

[Lance Armstrong]

Wow. You know what stands out for me? And I did a little just some quick math on. Obviously if you look at the profile but if you just looked at it and you didn't know anything about cycling, you might say to yourself, where's, where are the flat roads? They're nowhere.

[George Hincapie]

Right?

[Lance Armstrong]

This is, this client. This stage is either up or down the entire day. And look at the end, just under 130km. You all know this. Those short stages that just.

[Spencer Martin]

They'll be on their turbo trainers.

[Lance Armstrong]

Reeks of animation. Yeah, A day like this.

[Spencer Martin]

Warm up and the green jersey sprint is really early on which.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Well, that competition is over now, isn't it?

[George Hincapie]

Well, mathematically no, because.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh man, here we go.

[George Hincapie]

Jim's mop. We should shout Jim out because he's, he's probably sad that he bet on Pagacho to win.

[Lance Armstrong]

Well, mathematically you have the time cut as well. That you gotta.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. Or.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[George Hincapie]

Anything could happen, Right. Abduction, who knows. But. So if he doesn't get the green tomorrow, if he doesn't get the intermediate sprint tomorrow, Pagatra wins the stage. Picacho gets the intermediate sprint in Paris and then wins the stage. He wins green.

[Spencer Martin]

The sprint's AK in. There's absolutely no chance that he can get it a little, I don't think. Yeah, I mean their whole team will be on the front for 10k. I mean you and I can control over 10k. Probably not, but I'm just saying for 2 mic track they can do it. That's their main goal. They will get that points harder to.

[George Hincapie]

Make time cut on shorter stages.

[Lance Armstrong]

Gabrielle, can we go back to the profile real fast? All right, so again here, if you're, if you're Watching this. So you can see it's a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 categorized climbs. You got a category two, a one horse category, category two, and then finish up at Laplana horse category 130 kilometer stage. I just did some quick math because each of these climbs, if you have this in front of you, if you can see it, it tells you how long they are. 60 kilometers of the 130 kilometer stage are going uphill. This is a hard day.

[Spencer Martin]

Right.

[Lance Armstrong]

So now I want to go back to Oscar Onley and Florian Lipowitz. I mean this is for them and for that fight. This is the day.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

This, this is their race for those two guys.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Let's not forget about Paris. Paris is going to be a little.

[Lance Armstrong]

Mini Paris made, you know, I don't even know what to think. I'm excited.

[Spencer Martin]

Tour of Flanders or whatever. I mean, steep climbs, it's not over till they cross the line.

[Lance Armstrong]

The other the X factor about that stage. This new version of the finish into Paris is. Yes. I mean they're pulling from the Olympic circuits just last year, but a lot of cobblestones and I haven't checked the weather, but if that stage rains on those cobbles in Paris, my friends get ready.

[George Hincapie]

Well, and if, let's say it's a 10 second gap coming out of tomorrow, you can.

[Lance Armstrong]

I'd have to race.

[George Hincapie]

You could have time. Bonus sprints.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. You're racing.

[George Hincapie]

That's kind of interesting.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. What I think a lot of the sprinters are. No, I don't think. I know A lot of the sprinters are very insulted with Sunday stage. I, I, I kind of agree with them. Like historically, the shams is about a big sprint and it should remain that way to protect the history of the race.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. And not to get ahead of ourselves, but since I just mentioned this, I did. I just pulled up the weather forecast for Paris on Sunday. High chance of rain. Oof. Yeah.

[George Hincapie]

And it's live racing.

[Spencer Martin]

My guess, if it's that, if it's rainy and that dangerous, of course the organizers are probably going to maybe neutralize the time gaps.

[Lance Armstrong]

I don't know, George. I don't know about that.

[George Hincapie]

I don't know.

[Lance Armstrong]

You're going to go to the effort and, and, and make the statement of changing such an iconic final day of the Tour de France. I don't think they're going to neutralize.

[George Hincapie]

I mean, well, last year's finish was super technical. If it rained, they wouldn't have neutralized Stage 21 last year, the time trial.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, but, but you're on your own. I mean, if you're crashing on your own, that's your fault. If you're crashing in the rain with 150 guys battling out with small roads.

[Lance Armstrong]

Then, you know, small, Very small.

[George Hincapie]

I don't think they would neutral. But is it the 5K? Like, actually that is worth looking into. Is it the 3K rule?

[Spencer Martin]

Maybe it's the final lap. You know, something like that.

[Lance Armstrong]

Reminder, folks. Last year, Tour de France did not finish in Paris due to the Olympic Games. For the first time ever. Finished outside of Paris, Finished in Nice, France. Me personally, I'm real glad it's back in Paris.

[George Hincapie]

It just started in a fort. I think it was the only tour for the final stage to start in a foreign country. Yeah, in Monaco.

[Lance Armstrong]

Sort of.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, sort of. We don't want to wade into these waters.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, but I mean. Okay, you know what I mean. Any questions?

[Bradley Wiggins]

George, crashed in the rain in Paris once. Did you?

[Spencer Martin]

I did, yes. We should say I did. It was not fun.

[George Hincapie]

Tomorrow's forecast is cold and rainy.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[George Hincapie]

So it's not a nothing stage.

[Lance Armstrong]

And you know, I said it. There's 60 kilometers of climbing, which pretty much means there's, I don't know, 50 or 60 kilometers of descending.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

This time counts.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. Maybe you'll see the car out there trying to.

[Lance Armstrong]

Spencer, this is. We have created a monster. You really, you know, came into the week. The Tour is the nicest guy.

[Spencer Martin]

He was all night. I know.

[Lance Armstrong]

It was the nicest guy. I have been eclipsed. He's the biggest asshole on the show.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't know about. Let's not go that far.

[George Hincapie]

I will say when Johan texted us that this morning, I felt a little responsible for even speaking about somehow making Picacho crash.

[Spencer Martin]

Michael.

[George Hincapie]

Now they're going after him with a car. Okay, so this is a big question from Casper. This is also assuming Jonas Vinegar does not drop everybody and win the Tour tomorrow. But let's assume Jonas does not win this Tour. Should Jonas skip the Tour next year and target the Giro VA double instead, he'd likely win both by a fairly comfortable margin. I don't know about that, actually. Realistically, he will not beat Pagar unless Tad crashes or get sick. Gets sick. And as Lance said today, who cares about second place? Jan Oric would trade all of his podiums for one more win. Guys like Y. Yakov Fang wasted prime years chasing a Tour GC when they would have had better Palmares focusing elsewhere. Why do so many riders chase a top 10 at the Tour when they could Win the Giro Va or Big Spring Classics. Instead.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't want to say. I don't say podium of the Tour is bigger than winning the Giro or the winning the welter. What would you guys think?

[Bradley Wiggins]

That's a tough one.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

In terms of attention.

[Bradley Wiggins]

I. I would say the Giro. The Giro would. Is bigger than a podium at the tool. I wouldn't say the welter is.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I agree.

[Lance Armstrong]

I agree. And. And it's fair question. But think about this for a second. If. If Jonas Vengaard's not in this race, Florian Lipowitz is sitting in second. He's 11 minutes behind.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

So this is not close between first and second. It would be extremely not close if he wasn't here.

[George Hincapie]

I mean, I. My answer to Casper too. You never know what's going to happen.

[Lance Armstrong]

I think this, I mean, a team like that, with that budget, with the interest of the Tour, he has to be there.

[Spencer Martin]

He's got to be there.

[Lance Armstrong]

Somebody. And you know, look, Tati Poguchar came on the scene seemingly out of the blue. So who knows? I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about Oscar Onley.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, right.

[Lance Armstrong]

He's on. He's on a marginal team. Sounds like he's staying there for a few more years. But is this a kid who can develop into. This kid can spend an off season and. And you give him one or two seasons and all of a sudden could be right there.

[George Hincapie]

I. I would say to answer to Casper's question, think about Matthew Vanderpool. The guy looked on top of the world. Then he is pneumonia. He's out of the Tour. If you're one of the two best stage racers the in the world, you have to show up because you never know what's going to happen.

[Lance Armstrong]

That's true story. Before I forget the the Ventum Daily trivia question of the day. Yesterday's question. The Rhone Valley location of stage 17 is known for peloton breaking winds. What formation is that that the writers do to try and combat the crosswind? Answer Survey says Echelon. That was not very hard. Stage 18 the question is a recent addition to the high mountain finishes of the Tour. Colder Laos is quickly gaining infamy for decisive duels and GC shakeups. What feature of this climb makes it unique among other climbs used in the Tour?

[Spencer Martin]

What feature?

[Lance Armstrong]

What feature of this climb makes it unique among other climbs used in the Tour? Send your answers over to ventumracing.com the move and get entered to win the grand prize. Five thousand bucks a store credit bentomracing.com the move. What feature of this climb makes it unique among other climbs used in the Tour? Everybody, any more questions?

[George Hincapie]

Well, okay, so you, you opened up this box. The third place rider at this tour is 11 minutes back currently Florian Lipowitz. Is it bad for the sport that all the other like outside of Jonas and Tade, the best stage racers are locked away on Tad's team and of course they will not let him race against him at the Tour. Should there be a salary cap or some sort of way to break that up?

[Lance Armstrong]

How much longer do we have on the show?

[Spencer Martin]

Look, it would be, yeah, this is.

[Lance Armstrong]

An issue or conversation around the structure of the sport. So that, that would be, that would be if you had an adult conversation, that would be part of the conversation. Right. And so, yeah, because you're talking about Almeida, you're talking about Del Toro, right?

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. Who's trying to get off uae.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think in terms of these guys right below Pogucher, I mean their only shot of actually ever winning a Grand Tour is to leave UAE now. So they're going to start looking at maybe perhaps taking less of a salary and trying to go to a team that'll be all behind them. So it could make the, the Tour more interesting in the next couple years.

[George Hincapie]

The prom is they're all locked into like eight year deals and their buyouts are €100 million.

[Lance Armstrong]

Oops.

[George Hincapie]

Oops.

[Spencer Martin]

Gofundme.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, and I also, Sal, we, we throw around the word salary cap like it's really easy. Like US Sports leagues have lobbied congress and paid a lot of money to sp pass special laws so they can't have salary caps because technically that's wage suppression. It's not legal. I think it would be hard to do in Europe. You'd have to do some sort of token system where it's like if you can't have more than four riders who have podiumed a Grand tour on your team, because if you try to restrict people's earning, it will not fly in the eu.

[Lance Armstrong]

You start to get, I mean, look, Spencer, in the pre show you referenced an article that, that mentioned that 15 of these world Tour teams are searching for title sponsor. So. So on one hand you have. That to me reeks almost of desperation or of crisis. On the other hand, you've got a team with endless money that has these riders stacked on, on the squad that we just talked about and those don't. That's not, that's not healthy. Right. Whatever's going on There. So that that should lead to a conversation like, hey, what do we do? Right. I personally think that, that. That the sport should be structured in a way just like any other major sports league.

[Spencer Martin]

Right.

[Lance Armstrong]

Look at European soccer, look at the NFL.

[George Hincapie]

Look at European soccer. Might not be a good example.

[Lance Armstrong]

Well, you're owning the franchise.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

Right. So with that, you're actually owning something. I. I personally think the sport they should sell. Well, first thing they should do is get rid of the UCI. We don't need the UCI. Right, Number one. Number two, I think you should. Whatever that entity is that owns the sport, whether it could be, even be asl. Right. Because they own the most dominant race in the world. Fair enough. And you sell 20 franchises.

[Spencer Martin]

Look.

[Lance Armstrong]

And we created a soccer league in the United States 25 years ago. People laughed at them, right. Phil Anschutz and the Hunts went around and said, we're going to start a soccer league. We got 20 teams. Anybody want to buy them? Nobody put up their hand. The franchises were $10 million. Like, two people put their hand up. So the Hunts and the Anschutz said, well, we'll buy the other teams and we'll develop them, and hopefully eventually other people will want to buy them and this will trade. That's what you're supposed to do. We should franchise this thing where you're building franchise value. You share in the upside of the sport, whether that's global broadcast rights, sponsorship, et cetera, et cetera, so that you're actually owning and participating in something. And in its upside, that's what should happen. Then you're not. Then it. Well, you got me going. Then you're no longer as dependent on, as is the case with 15 teams, on begging for a new title sponsor. You are actually owning something. Right. And so that can all be done, in my opinion, without the UCI. All you need is the events, the riders and the teams.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, well, yes, I agree, especially on the UCI part, but I think what we should clarify this search for sponsorships from 15 teams. If you read between the lines, I think what is happening, it's like Lotto and Inter Marche. Inter Marche saying, we have 18 million. That used to be enough. That's not even close to enough, because that is just like, Pagachar would take up half of that budget if they signed him. So you have a few teams with really, really, really big budgets. And other teams are like, how do we double our budget? Because we need to double our budget to survive. I kind of think, like, why not have 10 teams? Like, why do we need 18 World Tour teams. But it's just. But isn't that kind of the way of the world in Europe? Bradley, like, think about Real Madrid.

[Lance Armstrong]

I'm curious. I see him right here.

[Bradley Wiggins]

I'm listening.

[Lance Armstrong]

Wheels, they're spinning up there.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Something's got to change because where are we going to be as a sport in 20 years time?

[Lance Armstrong]

That's right.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And, and you see the classic example of lotto and 1T having to combine to, to maximize their budgets. But aren't 15 riders going to lose their jobs in doing that?

[George Hincapie]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

So it's. Yeah, it's a complicated one.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

But I agree with you. I think that that that's probably the way forward.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah. And then layer in and you know, and again, this is all just a matter of what you believing what you read. But if you. The preliminary numbers from this Tour, the 2025 Tour de France, a global television audience is significantly down. Right. So as a, as a, as a sport. Right. If, if the NFL's numbers were down to the tune of what I read in this piece, my friends, the. I mean, every single owner of an NFL team would be in a conference room sitting there going, okay, how do we tweak this formula? Because this isn't going to work for us. Right.

[George Hincapie]

The.

[Lance Armstrong]

It's time to get real.

[Spencer Martin]

Right.

[Lance Armstrong]

And, and you have a beautiful sport, you have tons of history, obviously plenty of complications in the past still to this day, not managing those things, in my opinion. But let's be real. It's time to be real.

[Bradley Wiggins]

That's a better way of doing it than someone buying the giro and moving the giro to July like you suggested last week, and putting a 20 million pound winner's prize on it and come start fee.

[George Hincapie]

Why not?

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

No, but I think, I think then you start lose the essence of the sport and it and its traditions. And it's.

[Spencer Martin]

That maybe the only way that this thing changes is big money coming in and making big moves. Because we've been talking, we've had the same conversation for the last five, six years and there hasn't been any change.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah. I mean the, the.

[Bradley Wiggins]

And look at the US calendar. I mean, no, 10 years ago we had Tour California, which is huge.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Missouri, Georgia, all these races.

[George Hincapie]

To be fair, we should say like the NBA's ratings are in the toilet too. So it's not like it's just a cycling thing.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, look, I think if I owned a piece of any sport and those numbers were presented to me, I think you have to question first. You have to step back and say, how are people consuming two parts here? How are people consuming content and how are younger people consuming content? Because those are the people that are eventually going to consume my content as a team owner. The sport of cycling, five hour stages, three week races. I mean, is that like if I said to my kids, right? My daughter almost 15, my son's 16, hey, you want to sit around? They'll be like, yeah, no, dad, I'm going to watch 90 second clips on TikTok. And I got it right. So that is a question of consuming content. How we're doing that.

[Bradley Wiggins]

Especially when we watched the first time Drum. We couldn't even get time splits on the tv.

[George Hincapie]

It's not good, you know.

[Lance Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, who opened up this can of worms? Really round up. I was having a great day.

[George Hincapie]

We have a nice one to finish.

[Lance Armstrong]

My hair was on point. Come on. Still is.

[George Hincapie]

Hair hasn't gone anywhere.

[Lance Armstrong]

Thank you, Spencer. So.

[George Hincapie]

Dave, I just want to.

[Lance Armstrong]

I think that is an important point. The hair hasn't gone anywhere. That is always my point. Yeah, people make me. Oh, he's so silver, so gray. I also feel very bald about this.

[George Hincapie]

Yeah, it's like, okay, I'm going gray, but the hair is still there.

[Lance Armstrong]

Okay, last question. So George has got to go to 4,020s.

[George Hincapie]

Hey, George. Lance Bradley Spencer. As a longtime listener of the Move podcast, I've been wondering what happened to the boomstick. I really missed it during this year's tour. Yeah, Ben O Connor should have got.

[Spencer Martin]

I think we used it once this year.

[Lance Armstrong]

We gave it to Quinn Simmons one day we're. I don't.

[Spencer Martin]

I lost it.

[George Hincapie]

Virtual boomstick for Ben Ocon. Also, here's a photo of George and me. This is really crazy. Here's a photo of George and me at the 2012 Pro Cycling Challenge. That just happened. No, this guy's emailing into us now. That's how fast time's flying.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

That's your announcement.

[George Hincapie]

This is from Parker.

[Lance Armstrong]

Okay. Looky here. Yeah. Was it Parker asking about the boom?

[George Hincapie]

Yeah. She's back.

[Lance Armstrong]

Huh? There it is. What do we think? Ben O'. Connor. Ben O'. Connor. 100 boomstick. And then we'll keep. We'll keep it at the desk. We'll keep it around. Okay, I appreciate that, George. It's. It's tricky to have around because it makes a lot of noise when you put it on the desk. But we'll keep it. I'll keep it right here. And tomorrow just to go. I'm super keen on this. This fight for the podium. We're gonna be giving the boomstick to one of those two guys. Maybe.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep. Tomorrow.

[George Hincapie]

Hopefully one of the. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[George Hincapie]

What if Roglich comes back? We never know.

[Lance Armstrong]

Oh, George would be so happy.

[George Hincapie]

He's so.

[Lance Armstrong]

I mean, let me guess. Who was that guy you had to poster him in your bathroom with the.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't remember.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, no, no. Well, that.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't.

[Lance Armstrong]

No, no. That guy. Who was it? Tell me. It's Belgian. There's a guy you were sitting, fanboy of whatever. Philippe Gilbert. Was it Philippe Gilbert?

[Bradley Wiggins]

Stein Devolder.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't remember ever having any writer in my bathroom.

[Lance Armstrong]

Whatever. The poster's down, and he now has a Primos poster in his bathroom.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Lance Armstrong]

He's such a fanboy, by the way. He's a sick writer. So, yeah, I support it. All right, cool. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. We'll see you tomorrow, Sam.