Biniam Girmay's Uncertain Future, Tour Route Details & End of Season Rankings | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE+ Podcast Summary

Episode: Biniam Girmay's Uncertain Future, Tour Route Details & End of Season Rankings
Date: October 24, 2025
Host: Spencer Martin with Johan Bruyneel (Lance Armstrong referenced throughout, but not present in this episode)

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Overview

In this lively, insider-heavy off-season episode, Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel dissect the recently unveiled 2026 Tour de France route, dive into the end-of-season team and rider rankings, and unravel chaotic team changes and the uncertain future for top Eritrean rider Biniam Girmay. The show maintains THEMOVE’s signature blend of deep strategic insights and candid storytelling, balancing humor, nostalgia, and a strong pulse on the state of pro cycling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. 2026 Tour de France Route Analysis

• Unexpected Brutality of Final Week:
  The hosts take a detailed look at the final mountain stages, emphasizing that stages 18-20 are "absolutely brutal" and could keep the GC battle alive until the very end.

  • Col de la Sarenne’s Difficulty: Stage 20 features over 5,600 meters of climbing in 171km, “by far the hardest stage” (06:37).
  • The new route up Alpe d’Huez (Col de Sarenne) is described as “narrow, hard, and currently horrible surface – it will have to be repaved” (07:05).
  • Stage Transfers: The logistical challenge of two summit finishes (Vosges and Alps) back to back, “those two places are like nowhere near each other. So that's going to be a tough transfer” (04:01).

• Racing Dynamics:
  Spencer and Johan agree the new Alpe d’Huez approach favors tactical racing:

  • “I've never thought of Alpe d’Huez as the hardest climb... It’s very famous, but you can get speed in the corners. There’s little moments of recovery.” — Johan (07:55)
  • Such a design “invites for accelerations, if they're really equal” (08:44).

• Iconic Memories & Fan Culture:

  • Reminiscence about Lance, Merckx, and Tour history, including Merckx’s infamous punching incident (11:14).
  • “It’s by far the rowdiest summit finish you'll ever see. 50% of them have been partying.” — Johan on Alpe d’Huez fans (10:06).

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2. Season Ender: Team Rankings and Promotions Chaos

• Veneto Classic Recap & UCI Point Frenzy:

  • Unox secures WorldTour promotion thanks to a development rider's surprise win at the Veneto Classic, edging out Cofidis and sparking an in-depth look at UCI point strategy and promotion.
  • “This guy is actually still on the development team... It was his first win.” — Johan (15:03)

• Relegation/Promotion:

  • Israel Premier Tech, Unox, and Lotto are moving up. Cofidis is relegated but retains wildcard access to all major races due to their Division 2 ranking.
  • “They are entitled to race everywhere, but they don’t have the obligation to race everywhere, which is even better.” — Johan on wildcard teams (16:31)

• Team Sponsorship Shake-Ups:

  • Announcements of team sponsors changing (Q36.5 becoming Pinarello; questions about the fate of Scott and Cube as main bike sponsors) (19:00-20:06).
  • Multiple teams may share sponsors, with TotalEnergies and Pinarello supporting several squads, creating “a big mix” (17:59).

• Off-Season Now Virtually Nonexistent:

  • Team gatherings and preseason camps begin immediately after Il Lombardia, signaling an endless cycle for riders and staff.
  • “It’s becoming almost impossible because it has to be November or December. January is impossible…” — Johan (22:20)

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3. Biniam Girmay’s Cloudy Future & Team Mergers

• Lotto & Intermarché Merger Chaos:

  • The merger is described as “a disaster in the making.” Riders and staff face last-minute job losses and unprecedented uncertainty (36:01).
  • Biniam Girmay’s contractual limbo: UCI appears to be blocking his release, but legal analysis suggests he’s likely free to leave due to the paying agent structure. He is all but confirmed to have already signed for the new Cycling Academy (formerly Israel Premier Tech):
    • “In my opinion, Girmay is free to leave… In any labor court, it's a five-minute discussion.” — Johan (37:45)
  • The team’s existential risks: “Why are they ever interested [in a merger]? It’s a disaster, but not really a disaster because [Cofidis] auto-qualifies...” — Spencer (15:48)

• Rider Movements:

  • Garben Thijssen likely headed to Alpecin at a bargain, thanks to a contract-sharing deal (36:01).
  • Broader implications for teams unable to provide job security as the sponsor landscape consolidates.

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4. Other Team & Sponsorship Developments

• Alpecin–Deceuninck’s Strategy:

  • The Roodhooft brothers continue to avoid “the middle class”—focusing on high-value leaders and cheap helpers, and benefit as Deceuninck renews unexpectedly:
    • “They're playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers.” — Spencer (42:03)
    • “If you have GC guys, you have to change the whole structure.” — Johan, on why more teams don’t follow suit (43:18)

• Sponsorship Tactics:

  • Brands like Pinarello, Scott, and Cube are scrambling for top teams; Specialized and Pinarello remain the key multi-team sponsors (18:09-19:35).
  • “If you’re a big brand, you kind of have to be sponsoring a first division team.” — Johan (19:00)

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5. National Championships & UCI Points Quirks

• Isaac del Toro’s Mexican Heroics:
  • Mexican National Championships held atypically in October due to federation upheaval; the points from Del Toro’s time trial win reportedly count toward the 2026 season, not 2025.
    • "This is the first win race of UAE for 2026." — Johan (30:14)
    • Fans and chaos: “Isaac del Toro in Mexico is a hero right now. He’s God.” — Johan (00:00, repeated at 27:54)
  • UAE’s dominance in wins/points is staggering—almost double their nearest rivals in both wins and UCI points (30:49-31:33).

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6. Race Organization & Calendar Changes

• Tour of Holland and Other Races:
  • Revival of Tour of Holland faces logistical headaches from stricter Dutch policing.
    • “It was a bit of a mess... very late in the season, but still good racing.” — Johan (34:03)
  • Tour de Suisse shrinks to just five days—a sign of calendar tightness and shifting sponsorships (69:52).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tour Route Logistics:
  “That last week is absolutely brutal. I don’t think I fully digested this.” — Spencer (04:01)

• On Alpe d’Huez’s Reputation:
  “I've never thought of Alpe d’Huez as the hardest climb... It’s very famous, but you can get speed in the corners.” — Johan (07:55)

• On the Unending Offseason:
  “It's so hard to have a sustained career of excellence because that is exhausting—mentally, physically." — Spencer (24:04)

• On Team Sponsorship & Bike Brands:
  “It's a big mix... what's going to happen with Scott? Are they going to find another team to sponsor? This late in the season?” — Johan (18:09)

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Audience Q&A Highlights

• Will Tour GC Holders Keep the Jersey the Whole Race?
  "As a team, you cannot. If you keep it without wanting to, that's always possible." — Johan (52:58)

• On Altitude Training Methods:
  “Sleeping in an altitude tent is not easy... it’s not fun. But it’s the future, I think so.” — Johan (64:41)

• On Primos Roglič’s Outlook:
  “Primos has gotten the maximum out of his career already. Primos is still one of the big dogs, but there’s a lot of young dogs now.” — Johan (62:06)

• On Giro/Vuelta vs. Tour de France Value:
  “If you ask Primos—give up two Vueltas for a Tour win? Yeah, straight away. Anybody would do that.” — Johan (66:11)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–02:41 — Isaac del Toro and Mexican Champs / Tour Route Overview
• 04:01–09:25 — Stage 14-20, Transfer Logistics, Alpe d’Huez analysis
• 13:24–16:31 — Veneto Classic recap, UNOX's WorldTour promotion, UCI points
• 17:33–21:32 — Team sponsorship merges/mix-ups
• 22:20–24:33 — Offseason camps and training intensity
• 27:43–31:23 — Mexican champs UCI points; UAE and Pogačar's dominance
• 36:01–38:44 — Lotto–Intermarché merger chaos, Girmay’s legal limbo
• 42:03–43:18 — Alpecin’s team-building “chess” strategy
• 54:02–56:10 — Tadej Pogačar’s racing style, tactical advice
• 62:04–63:37 — Primos Roglič’s career trajectory and dreams
• 69:52–70:34 — Shortening of Tour de Suisse; racing calendar shifts

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Conclusion

This THEMOVE+ episode offers a sprawling, insightful look into professional cycling’s shifting landscape as the 2025 season ends: from calendar and sponsorship upheaval to strategic nerdery and the uncertain fates of riders like Biniam Girmay. Spencer and Johan provide the kind of fast-paced, deeply informed banter that diehard cycling fans crave — and plenty of backroom vantage points on what’s coming next.

Transcript

[Johan Berniel]

Isaac del Toro in Mexico is a hero right now. He's God. And you know, I've seen images of the time trial. It was crazy. The fans and enthusiasm and the support. It would be very, very a big surprise if he also is not winning the national title on the road. So we may see Isak del Toro, at least already in the time clause, but probably the whole year riding in a UAE jersey, but the Mexican with the Mexican flag. But I've also read that the points are attributed already to next year, not this year anymore. Whoa. So this is, this is the first. I mean I've read reports that this is the first win race of UAE of 2026.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow.

[Johan Berniel]

That is only in cycling. You win, you win at the. You win mid October. But it's already counted for the first win in 2026.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel as we are every Friday during the off season going through a few news items, tying up a few odds and ends from yesterday's Tour de France route announcement. Before we get to listener questions, if you have a question and you want to send it in, send it to Infoado team and we'll try to get it. If you will try to get to it. If you absolutely need your question to be answered, become a WEDO member, put it in the chat on if you. It's a little. This will be streamlined in the future but currently you have to go to the members portal, click into the show, Click through to YouTube, make sure you're on the app and you will see a live chat and you can ask us questions. We're just trying to iron out the details before we hit the big show at the Tour de France next year. But Johan, let's get. But before we get into it, let's talk a little bit about this Tour de France route. We did a big show yesterday with with Lance Armstrong was great to have him but I, I went away from that show and I was thinking a few things that we didn't quite. Maybe we glossed over, maybe we didn't even know. But stage 15, I think I didn't fully digest how difficult this stage was. It finishes the final kilometer is near 10%. It's 184 Long Mountain Stage with how many climbs? There are many categorized climbs. It finishes. It's in the Haute Savoie, I believe is the region. It's a summit finish that that Tour's never done before and has been done once in the Dauphine is that correct in 2022, one by one.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's a hard stage and especially it's a hard climb. I mean I haven't seen the category in the Tour, but in the Dauphine it's categorized as horse category. I think it's 11 kilometers long, more or less and it's 9% average. So that's going to be a really hard stage, especially knowing what's, what's, what's coming then afterwards, you know, stage 18, 19 and 20. But you know, it's not, it's not a stage that is on the radar of being one of the, you know, one of the critical stages because of the lack of iconic climbs like the Galibier or Optus or anything else. But, but yeah, that's going to be, I mean I think if I remember correctly, it was Roglich who ended up winning the, the, the dauphine when he was still on, on Jumbo Visma and Jonas was setting the temple. I had to wait one or once or twice I think for Roglic. So Roglic gave him this, gave him, he had to give him the stage because, you know, he had to hang on. But. And that was actually when, when Jonas won his first Tour a few weeks later in 2022.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I vividly remember writing the newsletter for that finish, thinking it was kind of awkward at the, they were holding hands, but it was like a little bit of tension and then looking back, that was kind of the beginning of the end for Primos. As a leader at that team, Jonas goes on to great success. What's funny is when you actually go to these places you start to notice things like stage 14 finishes at A, a ski station in the Vosges. Stage 15, what we're talking about, this is like in the Alps. It's, I guess they ride through the Jura to get there, but these two places are like nowhere near each other. So that's going to be a tough transfer. And two like two summit finishes next to each other. Then you have a time trial, then you have a rest day time trial and then you enter the hardest part of the race. Like that last week is absolutely brutal and I don't think I fully digested this. Like the stage 20, 171km, not super long. And by the way, stage 19, the day before 100 and that's stage 19 finishes, the classic Optoz finish. 128km, that's not very long. That's going to be an explosive stage. But this one, stage 20, I, I saw figures something like 50. It was like 5200 meters of climbing on the stage.

[Johan Berniel]

Stage 20.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

5600. 5600. 5600 meters. Yeah. I mean, listen, if you do, if you do Crab Affair, Telegraph, Galibier, and then up the west via Col de Sarennes, I mean, it's four massive climbs. Yeah, definitely by far the hardest stage of the whole Tour de France on second last day. I think they did a good job, you know, I mean, most likely. I mean, listen, we have to be honest, Spencer, if, if we see the same trend and like, if Bogacha is on the same level and Jonas is, I mean, I don't know if Jonas can get better than his actual level or not. If they both stay equal, the suspense is going to be, well, okay, maybe the guy in the lead has a bad day in cracks. We don't really tend to see that anymore lately either. But at least, you know, the question mark is going to be there. That's it. You know, it's not going to be over until you finish that, that stage. And especially with, you know, those four massive climbs, you can, you know, you can run out of energy, don't think it will happen, but the doubt will be there.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. We should also mention 5,600 meters of climbing with 171 kilometers. So think that's like Kigali World Championships, but, but a hundred kilometers shorter.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, you know, long. If you do long climbs, you tend to get to that and they, they do.

[Spencer Martin]

The highest point, Gulabier is the highest point of the Tour. And this, this Alpe d' Huez ascent is harder than the day before. The last 7K are almost 9%. Yeah, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I've been, I've been told by someone who has, who has ridden it up and down, it's my good friend Antonio Alix from, from Eurosport, Spain told me this morning that it's the same side. So it's not another side. It's not the backside of the west. It's the same side. It's just a different road. And so that's called Col de Saren. And yeah, apparently it's very hard, very narrow. I've also read reports that the surface is right now is really horrible. So they will obviously have to and they will repave it for the Tour. But that side of that climb is actually harder than, than up the west itself. I mean, let's not forget Abdus. I've always thought, you know, up the west, especially having raced it as a professional, I've never thought of Alpe d' Us as the hardest climb out there. It's very famous. But, you know, it's a climb. You can get speed in the corners. There's little tiny moments of recovery because of the hairpins. You know, the hairpins on Alpe west are kind of flattish.

[Spencer Martin]

Where you can see it's a really unique speed.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Where they're flat hair, you almost never see that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. So this apparently is, is. Is harder than Abdoul Johan.

[Spencer Martin]

It's funny, I've always thought that as someone who's not raced at that level, I've always thought that too, like, embarrassingly to myself, like, is this supposed to be the hardest climb? But do you think it's better for racing, the fact that it isn't so hard, that it has high speed sections? I think so, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, anyway, it's almost always the most. The strongest guy who wins an obdus anyway. But it can be tactical a bit. And if they're really equal, you know, I remember one of the tours that Jonas won. I don't know if there was the first one or the second one that they had up the west and you know, today was trying to attack a few times and it's a climb that, that invites for accelerations, I would say. Whereas if it's, you know, what, what is it? What is up the west? 12, 12 and a half, 12.7 kilometers.

[Spencer Martin]

I think, or 12.3 kilometers or something.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, if you have a 10 kilometer climb at 9% steady, that's completely different.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Do you think they'll ever bring back the time trial about. Or was that too crazy?

[Johan Berniel]

I think it's difficult, man. You know, if you, if you, if you do the time trial up the west, I would say there's only one way to do it. And if they're, that's. If they're able to put fences on the whole climb, which is almost not doable. It's. It's way too much. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It's funny thing about that climb, people. It causes fans to lose their minds. It's by far the rowdiest summit finish you'll ever see.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, I mean, people are there two, three days on beforehand, you know, and then the problem is to keep those crowds under control. Most, I mean, 50% of them have been partying, you know, and there's been a lot of alcohol being consumed in the days before and the hours before the riders pass. It's a challenge. If I would be a Tour de France organizer, I would Try to find an alternative because. Yeah, I mean, and then also, I mean, time tries every rider coming on their own. So every time between riders, they have time to go back on the road, you know, close that wall and then they have to open again. The wall has to. I mean, I remember when it was the time trial, it was. What was that? 2004, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

I think so.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. It was one of the most stressful experiences I've ever had as a. In my career as a team director. Very, very nervous.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. We. We were talking yesterday with Lance. You guys were talking about the end of how reigns end. Am I right in thinking that? Was Eddie Merkz punched or something?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, he lost that. Yeah, he was punched. I think it was. I don't know if actually, you know, what it could be. I mean. I mean, something tells me I may be wrong, that it was actually on one of the climbs we have featured in this, in next year's Tour de France. Aussier Merlette. I think that's where it was either there or Pralu, but I think it was Orsier Millette where he got punched in the side by a fan. I don't know if that ended his career or if that ended his. His winning. Winning strike. But, you know, I think Eddie retired when he was 32, 31, going on 32. And it was probably like three years. He hadn't won the Tour anymore. But. But yeah, I mean, he started winning when. At a very young age. So I don't know exactly if that was the reason why his winning series in the Tour de France was. And was ended. I do, I do remember, however, it's a funny story. I do remember as a child, you know, so Eddie was beaten by, I think for the first time by. By Bernard Thevenet, who was the guy. He won the Tour de France twice. He's the guy who ended the Eddy Merckx domination. And, you know, I remember, man, as a. As a. As a child, you know, I hated Bernard Devon. You know, he was a big. A tall guy over riding for Peugeot. You know, the white jerseys with the. With the black squares like the, The. The. Yeah. And so I. I mean, I know. I know Bernardi. I ran into him this, this summer when I was, you know, My famous visit at the Tour de France that, you know, wasn't liked by anybody, by some people. And I ran into Bernard Devonnet and I spoke to him and I told him, I said, man, Bernard, I need to tell you something. As a child, I hated you.

[Spencer Martin]

I was gonna ask.

[Johan Berniel]

I Mean he was, he was very, he thought it was funny. He asked me straight away about Eddie, you know, because Eddie had at that moment he had, he had had a surgery and they're really good friends by the way. Bernard Thiven and Eddie Merckx.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. Well, I, I, I would do worry that that would happen if they did a tutor or alpu as Tom Trail, but I guess that could happen on any uphill time trial. A few other. So the season ended on Sunday, kind of. Maybe we'll get to that later in the show. But they had the Veneto Classic which is confusing because there was the Giro del Veneto just a few days before finished in Bassano del Grappa Uno X wins. Super impressive win by the way. If you go back and watch this race, it's a very well done race. I was thinking about you A like a steep wall cobbled and then they had a gravel road and then a gravel descent which Johan, I am, I am a fan of gravel and road races. I did think this looks a little gimmicky. It was such a hard descent.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Who was, who was in the, who was.

[Johan Berniel]

It was in the front. It was Italian guy.

[Spencer Martin]

Diego was off the front. Yeah, yeah. And I believe he went off the road and then that's why he was.

[Johan Berniel]

A couple of times.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And Florian and Verme gravel world champion just the, the week before gets beaten because UNOX had two riders in that group. My son is the world's biggest Unox fan. We were close watching this race. He was, he, he could not. He thought it was a like a pre recorded race. I picked because his favorite team won, but they win. They, they get Quite a few UCI points from this race. They get over like over 200 by.

[Johan Berniel]

I think this guy is actually still on the development team.

[Spencer Martin]

I, I never heard of him before. It was his first win.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah. Really strong. Really strong.

[Spencer Martin]

Really strong.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So that basically, you know, sealed the deal. There was some doubt, you know, because Kofi is there. They've been fighting back really hard. You know that every time, you know, X was there, if the coffee was there, they had, they had a few points in, in China I guess and in other races. So it, it was 5 or 600 at some point. They came back to 150 points I think in the last few races. But then finally with yeah, with that win that was game over. So you know, X is next year going to be part of the World Tour?

[Spencer Martin]

Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

So yeah, that's, that's pretty impressive at.

[Spencer Martin]

The expense of Cofitus. They relegate Cofitis. So three teams move up. It's Israel, Premier Tech, which won't be called that, Unox and Lotto, but you would think, oh, three World Tour teams have been relegated. Not really. Really just Kofidus and then Archaea will cease to exist. Sad. And we'll get to it later in the show. Inter Marche will cease to exist in some form. Their license will not live on. So that's how the promotions happen. Kofitis is now in the second division. Kind of a disaster, but not really a disaster because they've auto quality, they've finished high enough in the second division rankings, they're automatically invited to every race. In some ways it's a better position because you can pick and choose the races you want to go to. It is so.

[Johan Berniel]

So who is it? It's Dudor, Q 36.5 and Q 36, by the way, Q 36.5 changes name. It's going to be Pinarello. Q 36.5, the name of the team. So these three teams are in an ideal situation because they are entitled to race everywhere, but they don't have the obligation to race everywhere, which is even better.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, you just don't get the security because you have to perform every year.

[Johan Berniel]

Every year. Yes. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But currently, though, behind. So Toad Aisle Energies is the big loser because they get knocked out of that, they'll get an invite to the Tour. You would imagine not. So someone was like, oh, it's not a big deal. They'll get invited to all the ASO races. Well, that's not so clear, because if Total Energies is sponsoring ineos and Total Energies is sponsoring the Volta, like the company, then I don't think the Vault is going to say, well, we need to invite the other Total Energies team. Yeah, I think they might get flicked.

[Johan Berniel]

They'll probably not. Might be part of the deal of.

[Spencer Martin]

The sponsoring also, you know, how weird is that? That there's gonna. There's gonna be two Total Energy teams at multiple races.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. And then there's going to be one team, which is title sponsor Pinarello and also sponsoring ineos, who has in. Who has Total Energy as a sponsor. So it's a big. It's a big mix. It's a big mix of.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, you don't see that so often now that I think about. Because obviously bike sponsors will sponsor multiple teams, but Little Trek is the only Trek team. Correct. There's no other.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Well, I think right now it's it's only in the. So in the, in the World Tour it's only. I mean, or if you, I mean, I think you could put Q 36.5 at the same level. There's only two, two teams. Right. It's. It's Specialized who, Which sponsors Red bull, Bora and Sudok, Quickstep and Pinarello. Answers Q36.5 and Ineos. Other than that. That one makes me wonder, for example, what's going to happen with Scott? Where is Scott gonna. Because Scott was sponsoring Q 3.5. Are they going to find another team to sponsor? It's this late in the season. You know, if you're a big brand, you kind of have to be sponsoring a first division team.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, that's a very good point because I think there's a lot of talk of, oh, it's not worth it. People love to complain. If you know, bike marketing people, it's always, it's not worth it to sponsor these teams. You kind of have to. And it is worth it. Colonago was floundering. They were not like they were a shell of themselves. Since they've started sponsoring the team and Pagatra started winning, your sales are like doubling and tripling every year. It's, it is really important to sponsor a team. You forget there's, there's bike brands. I would say their names and you would say I forgot they were a bike brand because they're not in the World Tour or second division.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, example. I mean there's one, there's one brand, for example Merida. They, so they, they finished their sponsorship with, with Bahrain. These guys can actually, you know, they're so big. They're so big and they're manufacturing for many other brands. They can say, okay, you know what, we'll sit out for a while. Scott I don't think is in that position. And another one which disappears, I assume is the Cube, which is the bike sponsor for intermarshe.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, so it's also a big brand. So what are they going to do? So that's going to be interesting to follow. We may see some last minute movements. Although I think at this point if you still have to decide on what SPAC sponsor you're going to have, that's a big job for the team staff in the off season.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, yes, and it used to be common like Specialized I think had four teams at one point. I'm assuming that becomes. It's shrinking because it's so expensive to sponsor a team now cash wise and bike wise. But also, you got to say Pinarello, that's a, that's a good brand for that team. Like Q 36.5. What is that? I don't even know that. But you hear the Team Pinarello Q 36.5, like you've now like captured the attention of the casual person that's a great owner.

[Johan Berniel]

Pinarello and Q36 have the same owner who owns the team also. So I think that that makes sense that you know, you kind of sponsoring your own team. Right. But yeah, other than that, Spencer, what do we have? I just checked. Correction. Eddie Merckx was not punched on Orier Merlette, but on. Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I have a friend, Lionel Bernie, who I. I've got to admit, these are all like, this is blind spots for me, that era of cycling. But he would, he knows like all significant climbs and it's like how they rank. It was like man, Puy de Dome. Tell me it's Puida Dome or Alpe d'. Huez. I don't know the difference. But one thing you mentioned that this bike that if you don't have a bike brand now, you're in trouble. I heard that a team like teams are already doing pre season camps. Like riders are going to get fitted on the new bikes and with the new kit now. But the season is still happening. And so like this, the season and preseason have merged officially. Like we're a snake that never ends, Correct?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, I mean we've seen lately in the last five years, 10 years that the first gathering. I mean, there are teams that actually stay after Tour of Lombardy for 3, 4 days to get the first get together of the new team. They stay in Italy and they do a three, four day.

[Spencer Martin]

That's so bad for you mentally to.

[Johan Berniel]

Not have a. Yeah, but you know, I mean, it's not training, right? You get together, you get to know each other, talk about your first wishes about the calendar and then they have a few more training camps, of course. But it's also becoming more and more difficult to find time to have the whole team together. You know, all the riders and all the staff together. It's becoming almost impossible because it has to be November or December, because January is impossible. Because, you know, most of the teams have to travel to Australia already for two down under.

[Spencer Martin]

That's a good point. And then, wow, I.

[Johan Berniel]

It.

[Spencer Martin]

That is so hard for to not.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, what it.

[Spencer Martin]

What does off season look like for like wout Van Art's been quiet, I assume. What does he take two weeks off the bike, you think?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, two, three weeks. But they, you know, they do, they do other stuff when they run. They. Yeah, typically two, three. I mean, I, I think, I think three weeks is, is, is good. Especially meant for mentally. You need to check out a bit.

[Spencer Martin]

You know.

[Johan Berniel]

But some guys did two weeks, you know, two weeks and they're back at it.

[Spencer Martin]

November, they're ramping up again.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Ouch. This does show you why it's so hard to have a sustained, sustained career of excellence. Because that is exhausting. Mentally, physically.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's, it's. The thing is that the level's so high. I mean, you kind of have to prepare. You have to do your own training camp to get to be fit enough to be doing, be able to do the team training, the first team training camp because they're already at such a high level.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. That's wild. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then I have some, some things to ask you about when we come back. Like the season never ending with the Mexican national championships not having happened yet. But we'll be right back, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Ruji at golong. How do we think Tad Epicar felt when he took a look at the 2026 Tour de France? It was released yesterday. I'm going to guess he felt pure confidence. And don't you wish they bottled that type of confidence for the rest of us? Well, we're in luck because that's exactly what Ruat does. Rui it. Golong isn't just another ed pill. It's a confidence game changer. It combines two doctor trusted medications in one dual action formula to help you get there and go the distance and effects last for up to 36 hours, which means you can feel confident all day and night and some of the next day too. Getting started is simple. Connect with a board certified doctor 100% online@rouge yet.com if prescribed, your treatment ships directly and discreetly to your door. So if you're ready to up your confidence in the bedroom, head to rouge.com that's R U G I E-T.com and use promo code the move at checkout for 15% off your first order, that's rujiat.com and use code the move. There's also a link in the show notes. Make sure to use the code to get that discount and so they know we sent you. Hey everybody. This episode is brought to you by Caldera lab. I'm sure the one thing on Every writer's mind when they looked at the route for the 2026 tour yesterday was, man, that is a lot of time in the sun. What is my skin gonna look like when I finally arrive in Paris? Won't it look old and beaten up from all that sun exposure? Well, that's where Caldera Lab comes in. Don't worry about it, fellas. They've completely redefined men's skincare by combining advanced science with clean, non toxic ingredients. So it's simple, effective, and actually works. Lineup is dialed. They just sent me a care package with their whole lineup and I'm using it every morning. I feel fantastic when I do it. I think my skin looks better. I leave the house and I'm. And I'm ready to go. They have the good and award winning serum that delivers antioxidant units, 3.4 million of them per drop, to help protect your skin and keep it looking smooth and hydrated. The eye serum is a must for any podcaster that's got to wake up and work European hours when they're in the US and the base layer is a quick absorbing, nutrient rich moisturizer with a clean matte finish. No greasy feel, no fuss. Use it on your face and then use it on your legs after you shave so you have nice, smooth, hydrated legs when you're out on the group ride. So whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skincare simple and effective. Don't settle for drugstore junk or steal your partner's products. Elevate your routine with skincare made for you. Head to calderalab.com themove and use code THEMOVE at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab.com THEMOVE for 20% off your first Order. All right, back to the show. So, Johan, we're back. We said the season's done, we're talking about the rankings, but there's still UCI points to be harvested because the Mexican National Championships is currently happening. Isaac Del Toro. Spoilers for anyone. If you've tivoed this, he won the time trial, the national championship time trial. Not a shock.

[Johan Berniel]

Yesterday.

[Spencer Martin]

Yesterday, he gets 50 UCI points for that. That's not an insignificant amount of points, especially considering the margins we were seeing. And then I assume there's a road race this weekend for the Mexican National.

[Johan Berniel]

Championship tomorrow or Sunday. Yeah, yeah, that's a bit. That comes a bit out of the blue, Spencer. I've tried to get some more, some more detailed information. I mean, from what I'VE been reading. It's a strange situation because the Mexican, the National Cycling Federation of Mexico was banned or suspended. I'm assuming there was allegations of corruption and misuse of funds. I don't know exactly what. But they were not anymore validated by the UCI this season and I think also last season. And now all of a sudden I see, yeah, well, oh, there's, you know, out of the blue, there's the Mexican Cycling Championships outside of the calendar, basically because the season is finished and there's a new federation out of the blue also. I don't, I don't, I don't know the exact name. Something. I mean, it's like the, like the Mexican Cycling association or something. But so it's, it's nothing to do with the old federation. It's completely new. There's a new president. I don't know if he's been elected or if he's been put there by someone, but in any case, apparently it has been approved by the UCI. And so straight away, they organize the national championships was a bit strange for me. So in my. So what I, I see that they are trying to bank on the huge popularity of Isaac del Toro to organize this event. Isaac del Toro in Mexico is a hero right now. He's got. And you know, I've seen images of the time trial. It was crazy. The fans and enthusiasm and the support. It would be very, very a big surprise if he also is not winning the national title on the road. So we may see Isak del Toro, at least already in the time class, but probably the whole year riding any UAE jersey but the Mexican with the Mexican flag. But I've also read that the points are attributed already to next year, not this year anymore.

[Spencer Martin]

Whoa.

[Johan Berniel]

So this is, this is the first. I mean, I've read reports that this is the first win race of UAE of 2026.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow.

[Johan Berniel]

That is only in cycling. You win, you win at you in mid, mid October. But it's already counted for the first win in 2026.

[Spencer Martin]

Clear as mud. Who doesn't understand that here I'm going to see team wins. So they finished the season with 96 wins. So they wanted 100, but they're not going to get 100 because this won't count.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

In second place was Sudaw Quickstep at 54 wins. So almost double. They've almost doubled that. Here's another crazy stat. The UCI points team rankings. I'm pulling them up, I'm vamping, I'm stalling. So they have 40,000 points almost 41,000. Visma has 22,000. So they've almost doubled that. But that their gap between UAE and Visma is. Is bigger than the gap between visma and the 25th placed team overall. That is wild. And also.

[Johan Berniel]

And the same. The same goes for Pogachar. His points with number two is almost. Was also almost double.

[Spencer Martin]

The crazy thing about that is he raced fewer days than Jonas Vinegard did. He double doubled his points.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh wow. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that says a lot.

[Spencer Martin]

That's. That's pretty impressive. One other thing, odd and end. Odds and end I was going to bring up. Did you see this Stage four of the Tour of Holland. It was the. The massive mountain in northern Holland.

[Johan Berniel]

Tour de Vam. Tour de Vam. Tour de Vam. Yeah. The Vamberg. Yeah. The Van Berg. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Great little climb. I think European Championships was there a.

[Johan Berniel]

Few years ago and the championships also a few. When the European Championships were there. La porte 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3. For 1, 2, 3.

[Spencer Martin]

And Olaf koi postcard from another time. Right. Where Visma was ruin ruining cycling with their domination. But it also goes to show you shouldn't complain about that stuff because it cycles through so fast. But Laporte gets second. Looks pretty good. Beaten by Timo de Jong who apparently is a. Was a club writer who worked in a bike shop. 26 years old and then now he has a World Tour contract where he was or sorry, he was a stager for Picnic Post Tennel this year.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, he's.

[Spencer Martin]

He.

[Johan Berniel]

He was on a. On a. Is it continental or protein?

[Spencer Martin]

I think continental.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So it's like third division Volker vessels.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but yeah, strong rider. Strong rider. And yeah, he beat Kubies. Kubik or Kubies. No, it's Kubis.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, Lucas Kubis.

[Johan Berniel]

Kubis And Laporte in the sprint. Really strong that stage. Yeah, I mean that, you know, Tour of Holland was. It was a bit of a struggle. I've spoken to some people who were there and you know, it's a very nice initiative to try to revive the Tour of Holland. I mean before there was always the Tour of the Netherlands, but they do have this huge problem in the Netherlands that they are not getting access to police to regulate the traffic. So there was a lot of of these stages were on. On circuits and it was a bit of a mess. But yeah, let's hope, let's hope they can improve on that for the future. And it was also a stage race that I had not seen coming. All of a sudden it popped up and yeah, very late in the season, but still was good racing.

[Spencer Martin]

I've heard that there's rules in Holland that like volunteers can't stop. They don't have the same authority. So they don't.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, exactly.

[Spencer Martin]

That pinches you. There's probably also. No, it's no mistake that the wealthiest, like the wealthiest pocket of Europe with the highest efficiency is the one that places the least amount of importance on putting on bike races. So we've got places to go. We can't have people blocking the road. Yeah, you got to go make money. And so this Lotto Inter Marche merger, which I kind of thought was a done deal, is maybe not so much a done deal. There's a looming November 1st deadline, but two big, I guess two big open cases here that need to be decided. A. If Benny and Gourmet is racing for Lotto Inter Marche, the combined team, next year. We have been operating under the assumption of no because Inter Marche is shutting down. That license goes. He's free to leave. Now we're finding out potentially if he leaves, Inter Marche might not want to sponsor the combined team. Which then begs the question, Johan, why were they ever interested in the first place? Because we thought.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't even, I don't even know why they are interested, even with Girmai. Because, okay, Girmai is obviously a great, great rider, but obviously they, they are, they have been trying to find a co sponsor for a while. When they lost Destiny, it was Lotto by itself this year and they need extra money. But that merger, really, I mean, in my opinion, it's a disaster in the making. Very much uncertainty. We've read these reports of writers who have been told at the last moment that there was no place for them. Certain writers have contracts.

[Spencer Martin]

There's.

[Johan Berniel]

There are riders that have been offered. There's one rider, I think, if I'm not mistaken, this sprinter, Garban Tyson, he's a good sprinter. He's a pretty good sprinter. So he will most likely make the move to Alpecin and Inter Marche or the team has made an agreement that they're going to pay half of his contract. So really good deal for Alpecin to get a sprinter on board. Although I think his contract is a bit too big for, for his, for his value. But there's, there's many riders who have been told at the last moment and staff. I spoke to some staff members already and they, they told me that, yeah, they got a call out of the blue when they were, have been told in, in, in June or July or just after the, the news during the Tour that everything was okay for them and now all of a sudden they get a call and okay, hey, thank you very much for your service, but we don't need you anymore. I was surprised though, to read this report. I don't know how much of it we can really rely on, but that the UCI is apparently blocking the situation of Binyam Girmai, his contract, and that right now he's a bit in limbo. I don't know what the exact reasons are or what the ruling says. I would guess that Girmay, if he has a contract with team Inter Marche and he has a contract with the paying agent of Inter Marche, since that paying agent is going to be different with Lotto, because Lotto is basically the paying agent of the team and since Inter Marche has not submitted an application for a World Tour license, he's free. I mean, UCI and sporting regulations tend to think that their rules overrule normal rules. But I'm pretty sure that if Girmay has a good lawyer and he goes to any labor court, it's a very short hearing. It's a five minute discussion in my opinion. Gilmay is free to leave. And I think it's almost, I mean, not officially yet, but it's almost sure that he has signed already a deal with the new name of the team Cycling Academy, formerly Israel Premier Tech. We will call it Cycling Academy next year.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, Benim Girbai is the smartest man in the world because we were sitting here during the summer saying, what a fool. Why is he going to Israel Premier Tech? So many problems, It's a disaster. Well now Lotto, Inter Marche are floundering around. Do they have any money? Inter Marche is the team deeply in debt, took out a huge loan from one of the sponsors. So we have to assume that's either Inter Marche or Cube or Monty. And I almost wonder, I don't even understand why they're merging, Johan, because why would Lotto not just say, hey, Inter Marchez, shut that team down and come sponsor us. Germai is parachuted out of here and now he's going to go and he's going to be the headline writer of a brand new team and no one will remember that they were ever Israel Premier Tech. If he can get off this team, I think it's a pretty good situation for him.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As we know, that team is known to really pay riders big contracts and I think for Binyam Girmay it's a great situation.

[Spencer Martin]

Speaking of great Situations. Smart people. The root hoofs are playing the sport like fiddles. Johan. So they own the Alpecin deconnick team. We heard all summer, boohoo. We're so poor we can't afford anybody. Alpecins or decoenick is leaving as a sponsor. I'm sorry, expensive older riders over the age of 30 costing us a lot of money. We just cannot afford to resign you. They all leave now. They're getting a great sprinter at half the price because Inter Marche is going to loan them to them and. Oh, they've resigned deconic as a sponsor and they're back and they have to me, like staying away from the contracts that they stayed away from is the key for a team at that level. Because they just focus on the best. They have the best writers, they have no middle class. And then they have really good writers that work for the team and contribute to the greater good.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, it's. I mean, I don't know if it's luck or The Koenink had announced that they would stop as the second sponsor, the naming sponsor, although they had mentioned that most likely they would remain on the jersey in a smaller capacity. But now I've read reports that they have reconsidered and that they will stay on board. I don't know if it's going to be the same amount. I don't have that information. But it looks like, yeah, the team will remain Alperson de Koenig and I mean, a lot of expensive riders left. You know, I think probably one of the guys who has changed his mind afterwards is for example, this. What's his name, Edouard Plankart, you know, who had announced already. He was announced with. Officially announced with Sudoku.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

And now he's not there and he's back at Alpecin. So it must be that with the renewal or the Koenigs thing on board that the Rotov brothers were able to match the contract and or at least offer a really good contract again to Edward Plunkard, because he's important in the lead out, this guy for Philipson.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he is really important. That's a writer you want and that's the writer they feast on. You know, they have guys that win, they have everybody else. I'm doing this from memory, so I'm sorry, Daniel, if I don't get it right, but Daniel Benson published like salary bands for each type of writer. So, you know, Grand Tour contenders one day, winners, helpers, like pure domestiques. And then the middle class was, let's just say between 3 and €600,000. And from his analysis, Alpus and Decoenick had the least amount of riders in that middle section, which to me is very obviously to make that work, you have to have guys that win a lot. Yeah, like Jasper Phillipson and Matthew Vanderpoel. Having two of the best riders in the world, pretty helpful. Yeah, but that is so clever. I mean, to me, they're just like, they're playing Czech chess and everyone else is playing checkers. They have this figured out. It also helps. They're from Belgium and they're sitting on the most fertile soil for that type of writer as possible. They also don't have GC riders and they've not, they've not been tempted to go to, you know, to tangle with that dragon. Like, why do you think more teams don't follow that, Johan? Is it insecurity? Do they not have the riders to win the sprints?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, you know, if you have a guy like Vanderpool and Phillips and Gaten Groves, you know, it's a lot. I mean, if, if you, if you take on GC guys, you have to change a lot of your structure in terms of, you know, recruiting. You have to have other riders to support that GC rider. You have to change your calendar. I mean, not change a calendar. You have to do the world two races anyways. But now I think it's just a lot of change. I mean, look what happened to Sudok Quickstep when they have changed their whole philosophy around Remco. You know, it hasn't really been very successful. You know, I mean, before, Quickstep was the dominating team in the classics and now they haven't dominated. Not in the classics and not in the. Not in the state races.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, and the most expensive domestiques are climbing domestiques. The cheapest domestiques are flat domestiques. And so if you chase, remember they had Jay vine and they didn't really work to retain them because if they keep Jay vine and Jay Vines or GC rider, they got to sign a bunch of expensive riders to support Jay Vine. Pretty clever cost control and performance wise, it works out. What's funny is Sudal. Sudal's going back the other way. They signed Lawrence Rex from Inter Marche. That's a good signing for them. I guess they lose. I liked Edward Plankart as a signing, but they've. They've lost him. But I like the way.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a strong rider. Yeah, I think, I think Sudal did a good. A few good. Really signings you know, I mean, they, they look like. Plus, you know, they got a huge.

[Spencer Martin]

New sponsor, you know, in the form of Red Bull Anonymous.

[Johan Berniel]

Anonymous. Paid by Red Bull.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

That's always very handy.

[Spencer Martin]

It's really powerful if you think about it, because it is. It's like having a sponsor that you don't have to do anything for. You just let Remco go a year early and Remco you. You lose a year of production, that's not nothing. But he was going to leave anyway, so it's a. It's a win. Win, kind of. Did you see Wout Poles is going to Unibet, I guess, Rose Bikes Unibet or whatever the team will be called next year.

[Johan Berniel]

The name is called. The name of the new team is. I mean, the name of the. The new name is Unibet Rose Rockets.

[Spencer Martin]

Unibet Rose Rockets. Good name.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

They know what they're doing.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, pools. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's definitely gonna. I mean, it's an experienced rider. Dutch, you know, has. Has been on big teams and will bring a lot of experience and also gives some more depth to their, you know, potential spot for the Tour de France.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, because they're going. You gotta show up with.

[Johan Berniel]

But we don't know. We don't know yet if they're going, but, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, we don't. Technically, we don't know, but the wild.

[Johan Berniel]

Cards haven't been attributed yet. But it looks like. Yeah, especially also because they are Dutch, but they are a French team officially registered in France.

[Spencer Martin]

Really smart.

[Johan Berniel]

Here's another. Here's another. Well, actually, no, they. They're still. They're still with ef, but Cannondale is also out there. They were sponsoring that team.

[Spencer Martin]

I didn't know that. It's interesting.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. I just don't see who Rose bikes now.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I didn't see who. I don't think. I don't know how many options the Tour has. If they don't invite toad aisles in, lock them in and then you're looking at. They're not going to invite Italian or a Spanish team, right?

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, no.

[Spencer Martin]

So, yeah, maybe Wagner Bozen.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so. I don't think that would be. That theme is finished. That team is finished, man.

[Spencer Martin]

It's prime time to launch a team and get a wild card invite to the Tour. Well, before we go to questions, just a quick question for you. I read Daniel Benson had a nice little breakdown of the Derek G. Situation. The thing that a lot of it is Just unknown and pretty confusing. But he has to go to this, you see an arbitration board. Whatever is decided is going to get appealed to Cass. So they're going to have to go to Cass. I was just reading this, thinking the timelines were pretty daunting that Daniel was putting out there like year to two years. I was thinking, why is Derek G. Doing this, Johan? Because even that would, that would be scary to me if I was him. And thinking, is this going to be tied up for 12 months is a long time for a writer.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't think it's going to get to that point though. But hey, I mean, we don't know, you know, he had his reasons. Maybe he and his legal team are absolutely sure that they have a valid reason to terminate the contract because.

[Spencer Martin]

It'S.

[Johan Berniel]

Not possible anymore for him to work in the circumstances that he signed up for. You know, if the paying agent stays the same, which I assume it is, but actually, you know, I mean, it, it might have been Israelian and now it becomes Canadian. So that's already illegal. I mean, changing paying agents, different regulations. I don't know, I. Something I remember vaguely from, from the past. I'm sorry. Sorry. This is. Come here. This is an unforeseen. This is my assistant. My assistant. Look at this guy. He must have heard something. This is Bobby. Three and a half months old. Bobby, quiet, pretty cute. What do you say?

[Spencer Martin]

What do you think?

[Johan Berniel]

What do you think of the Derek G. Situation?

[Spencer Martin]

That's the UCI attorney right there.

[Johan Berniel]

So, I mean, I think he, when he made, when he, when they sent that letter, they must have, they must have been. Sure. And you know, I already said in the past, normal civil law is what's going to decide. I mean, whatever UCI arbitration board or even CAS now, I mean, CAS has been weakened lately and can be overruled by normal court. So I, I just think that there's going to be, there's going to be a solution and Derek G. Is going to start the season with ineos. What is it? Ineos. Total.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Interesting. I, I hope it gets resolved. I mean, to me that would just be so sad if he misses half, even half the season. Just. That's what I would be freaked out about if I was there. G. But clearly he said it's not about money. I assume, I assume there's going to be a pay bump involved. Do you think?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, probably. Probably. I mean, listen, he's a good writer. He's. At the same time, you know, he's not a writer that you can build a whole team around with certain guarantees. But. But yeah, I think, I think it's definitely a better contract. And, and the way I read it, the, the relationship between Derek G. And the team owner Silva and Adams was not great anymore. And that might be the reason why he, why he wants to leave.

[Spencer Martin]

Derek G. Currently makes less than multiple riders. We reference to leaving Albason, which puts into perspective how good of a deal that is currently for Israel Premier Tech.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Shows you why they don't want to give it up. They, they, they signed that deal. Like they, you probably should think, well, okay, that's a nice deal we did. Let's cash in on it and move on or renegotiate the deal. Yeah, I mean that's what most teams.

[Johan Berniel]

I think right now, right now it's not a matter of trying to make him stay. It's more a matter of, okay, you want to do this, I'm going to mess with you, with your career. That's the purpose. Otherwise. Yeah, it makes no sense. I mean, you don't want.

[Spencer Martin]

But even fight that out.

[Johan Berniel]

Wants to leave, you know, but even.

[Spencer Martin]

Let's play that out. So you mess with them, you really mess them up. You're still in the business of getting riders to come ride for you.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So are you not just teaching writers to never sign with you?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Well, didn't seem to bother Binyam Girmai and his agent.

[Spencer Martin]

Probably a few million reasons why that didn't bother him. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll, we'll get to questions. Unless you have any other updates. All right, we're back. First question, I, I hope these are appropriate because I've not vetted them. This is from David Brown. Question for Johan. Tade has taken his advice. I assume he means Johan's advice and raced smarter recently, but we all love his panache. Could we see a return to diva status to win his fifth tour and try to keep the jersey for the whole Tour? That's a such a good question, David. It's something we didn't talk about in the preview yesterday or today, but will the eventual winner take the opening jersey? And actually there's not a lot of great opportunities to give the jersey away.

[Johan Berniel]

Ah, there is. Yeah, there is. I'm going to say no, he's not. I mean, even if he takes the jersey on day one, which is very, very possible. No, they can't. You just. As a team, you cannot. I mean, they're gonna. Okay, there's, there's a way it happens. If you keep it without wanting to keep it, that's always possible because you want to give it away. And then there's other teams, you know, riding for whatever, and they, you know, the breakaway never gets far enough for you to give the jersey away. But you know, the different. The, the. The team time trial is short. So I think on day two and day three. Well, day three is.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, Is the problem.

[Johan Berniel]

So, yeah, it needs to happen somewhere there in the second week. But I would. With the last week, you just can't. You have to. You have to let it go.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, the friend here is the time trial is not until stage 16. So if the time trial was early, it gets hard to give it away. But there's going to be riders close that won't win. I'm trying to think back to that. Zero. He won. Johan, how many days did he have the pink Jersey? Was it 20? 20 of the days.

[Johan Berniel]

What, did he give it away? He didn't give it away. No. So he didn't win on stage one?

[Spencer Martin]

He didn't win on Stage one, but.

[Johan Berniel]

He won on Stage two, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And he had yet the jersey on stage two.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And I don't think that anybody else took the jersey after that.

[Spencer Martin]

So he got at stage two and held it to the end. Okay.

[Johan Berniel]

Almost as Johnny Buno in 1991, same thing. Johnny Buno won stage one and kept the jersey all the way.

[Spencer Martin]

The plan was to do that. Just. He just got beat by Narbias. Yeah, Stage one.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And then this guy beat me. Okay, let's sign him.

[Spencer Martin]

He's good signing.

[Johan Berniel]

He was on Ineos when he beat. Yeah, when he beat Bogachar.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. That's funny to think about. You know, who's good? Who's beating me? Let's make a list of those. They should sign Mateo Scamoza. And then eventually there's no one left to beat them. Do you think his panache will come back? I, I personally, I think he's entering a new fate. He's like a destroyer now. He does not. He doesn't seem to waste any energy that he doesn't need to.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that's the way to do. I mean, listen, as, as, as a team manager, I would definitely advise him to race the way he raced this year. You know, like really calculating and go whenever it matters and not try to do anything. I mean, of his, his attack. His attack at the bottom of Otakam, for example, was. Was risky in my opinion. But I mean, of course we can't. We can't say we can't have a feeling of, you know, how he feels. And then probably he felt already that Jonas was not having a great day, you know, because you know that of your rivals, you know, it, it's usually not, it's usually before you place the last attack, you already know, okay, this guy is. Doesn't have a great day today.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I get. Yeah, it was risky, kind of, but then he took the juice. Was worth the squeeze cuz he took so much time. That was it. Be on cruise control for the rest of the race.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Ian asked one about Primos. I'm going to push that because I want to bundle all the Primos questions. Larry asks, are there factors a team director uses during the tour that influence tactical decisions? And Johan, what's the worst and best tactical decision you've made as a director? That's a pretty good question.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, are there factors. What do you mean? Are there factors that influence tactical decisions? What does that mean?

[Spencer Martin]

Maybe Larry will. Well, let's start with the second half of that. What's the worst and best tactical decision you've ever made?

[Johan Berniel]

The worst tactical decision. Ah, some writers on the team, some writers on the team will probably say, you know, letting a breakaway take 30 minutes or something. In the Tour that happened one year and we had.

[Spencer Martin]

What year was that?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know, 2001 or something.

[Spencer Martin]

And that's when there. Someone had the lead by like 27 minutes. Right.

[Johan Berniel]

It was Francois Simon. I think he was on a team called Bonjour French team. And yeah, he had to, he had the leader Jersey were like 20 something minutes. And yeah, he ended up, I don't, I don't know, I think he, he ended up like 15 minutes down in GC. I mean, looking at it now, I mean back then I was pretty sure, you know, of that decision. And also we just, you know, we were going to blow up if we had to chase it down because it was a huge, a huge break. And I remember I made that decision because we were chasing that break and I could see the team bit by bit exploding. And then at some point there was one rider in the breakaway who had a flat. And that's why we were chasing was Vinokurov was in the break when he decided to, when he, when he had a flat and came back to the peloton, we decided to stop. And no other team was, was having any intention to set the tempo. So we said, okay, you know, you don't want to do anything, we don't do anything either. So they, they took 30 something minutes. 35 minutes, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Do you think, do you think that would happen now?

[Johan Berniel]

You don't see that so much. Unthinkable. Unthinkable. Yeah, I wish it would.

[Spencer Martin]

I guess the closest I can think of is Ben o' Connor at the Vuelta where he took all that time.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he ended up getting second.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if that's the worst decision. Yeah, I don't know really. I mean, probably made some really bad decisions, but nothing, nothing stuck out. Stands out. Best decision. There's not any. I mean, I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

Larry's follow up might help us there. Factors include rider position in the stage, the way a rider's feeling and the reliability of radio communications. Wouldn't you say it was a pretty good idea? Wasn't Jan Orek or you guys had Lance said at the back and said he was not feeling well?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that's. I mean, I don't know if that's the best decision. It's definitely the most fun decision that we took when, yeah, when, you know, we saw that the team was not as strong as we thought. I mean, and you know, controlling the Tour de France as one single team without any assistance even for other objectives like green jersey or white jersey from other teams at heart. And so we made that decision, you know, saying, okay, you know, we'll put on a little show and fake that Lance is not feeling great. And everybody was always used to. But this was the first mountain stage, first big mountain stage to Alpe d'. Huez. And I remember we went over Madeleine and then there was the Col du Glandon after that and then down to Bourdoisan and up the west and so on the motherland, Lance was in the back, so people were getting dropped, but he was in the back of the front group, which was about 30 riders. And so nobody was used to see that usually Postal was setting the pace on the first climb and then basically controlling the stage. And so, yeah, I mean, T Mobile or Telecom back then they just went for it and they said, okay, he's bad. We're just putting up the tempo. And they did the job for us. They did the job that we were supposed to do normally with Postal and Lance was pretty good at pulling some faces. And the TV fell for it. And I gave an interview Life. They came to me, you know, and they were asking, hey, what's wrong? I said, I don't know, man, our radio is not working. I can't communicate with Lance, you know, it doesn't look. I mean, I'm not used to seeing this. So I kept the doubt open and they just pulled the whole stage until the bottom of Optus and then we took over and yeah, that was it.

[Spencer Martin]

You created the Visma blueprint and Visma watched that and said we should always set the pace.

[Johan Berniel]

Times have changed, you know, it's different cycling.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, we, we like Visma. We're just giving them. Joking. So, ens, and there's two Primos. There's multiple Primus questions. So, ens, what do you think is next for Primos?

[Johan Berniel]

Primus Rug.

[Spencer Martin]

Which I assume he means.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what Primus's motivation. I mean, to me it, you know, he's, he's up there, but I think Primos kind of knows that he has reached his max and he, he has gotten the maximum out of his career already. He's still a very good rider, but he's not dominating anywhere anymore. Not even. I mean, if you would say Primos goes to the Vuelta this year, it would not be the Primos we've seen in the Vuelta. He would probably not have won the Vuelta and not the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Do you think he would have won the Giro had he not crashed out?

[Johan Berniel]

Was that.

[Spencer Martin]

Would he have won the Giro this year had he not crashed out of it?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know, man. I don't know. He was more dominant before in one day, in one week stage races, you know, So I think Primus is still one of the big dogs, but, you know, there's a lot of young dogs now that are there who can, who can beat him. So I just think Primos is gonna, I mean, he probably focus on one, one week stage races and then Giro or Vuelta. I mean, if, if I'm Primos, I'm. I'm trying the Vuelta again. I be the only, the only record holder. Because now he's tight. No, with his four. Four. Four Vueltas.

[Spencer Martin]

I believe it's four.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And that's a tie with, with Roberto Heras.

[Spencer Martin]

Volta's not so easy though. He's not a pagacha. Yeah, Jonas, this year you're gonna mind a Pagacha next year.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, we don't know. I mean, will. I mean, Pogacha, will he. I don't know, man. I think he's gonna go classics to the France World Championships, you know, probably not the Vuelta. I don't know. I mean, yeah, he can. I mean, if he's on this strike to, you know, like tick off all the boxes and The Vuelta still missing. We might see him next year in the Vuelta.

[Spencer Martin]

Quick question about this. So Pigaccio finishes this season incredibly well. No notes, like, unbelievable. Didn't go to. Didn't go to altitude after the Tour. Are altitude camps overrated? They're very expensive financially. They're expensive emotionally. You're away from home. I believe he just slept in a tent in his house. Like an altitude tent.

[Johan Berniel]

It's kind of. I mean, it's very simple.

[Spencer Martin]

The future.

[Johan Berniel]

I think so. I think so. I mean, it's. I think it's a standard now. I'm gonna guess that most of the professionals have this facility at their home or they go somewhere, you know, like the hotel we talked about in. In Silas Pain.

[Spencer Martin]

So.

[Johan Berniel]

So, yeah, I think, you know, altitude camps are. Obviously, the advantage is that you sleep at altitude and you train in the mountains.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

So I don't know. I mean, sleeping in an altitude. An altitude tent is not easy either. You know, it's. It's not fun.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the. When you're. I find there's a certain altitude I go above where my training's not as quality because I'm not putting out power. Like my body's atrophying, and then I'm not sleeping as well. So you can start to crater above a certain point. But, yeah, everyone's gonna have different experience with that last one. Before we go, two questions about Primos. He's had a great career. How. How many of his wins would he give up for one Tour victory?

[Johan Berniel]

A lot.

[Spencer Martin]

And then the second part of this is, would he trade careers with Garrett Thomas? Essentially all of his. All of his wins for a Tour victory?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so. I don't think so. I think in terms of 2 voltas, what's that?

[Spencer Martin]

Does he give 2 vault is up.

[Johan Berniel]

For a Tour win in a heartbeat.

[Spencer Martin]

Four vault is probably right.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, I don't. Listen. I mean, every. Every. Every Grand Tour win is you. His. His own store, its own story. And. But yeah, if you ask Primos give up two VTAs for a tour win. Yeah. Straight away. Anybody would do that.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. Two VAs. And a hero, even, Maybe.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But, yeah, Garen Thomas has had a great career. So I don't. I don't know. I guess they're so different. You probably, in reality, you would never give up a victory. Right. Because it means so much to you that you wouldn't want to give that up.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But I mean, look, for example, if you say, if you take the take the example of Grant Thomas. Like, you know, he was first, he won a Tour, he was second in Tour, he was third in the Tour and he was third in the Giro and second in the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

And he was a classics writer.

[Johan Berniel]

Never, never on the podium in the Vuelta. Nobody cares about that.

[Spencer Martin]

I was gonna say, I don't know if nobody know it yet. No one, no one could tell you that. That he wasn't one. E3 he was great track rider.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He's multiple world champion.

[Johan Berniel]

And was he another Olympic champion also in the team pursuit?

[Spencer Martin]

I thought he was.

[Johan Berniel]

I think so.

[Spencer Martin]

And this, this second part of this question I can give an easy quick answer to. Primos famously is running on, on race days. This is alleges to be true that he goes for a run before stages. I don't know if I believe it.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, it might have been the case earlier on his career. Probably not in the big stage races. I don't know. I don't know though. I've heard that, you know, in the Tour sometimes, you know, could it be mistaken or confused with you know, a morning walk or you know, a little, a little jog in the morning just to get your body. I mean he's not running for the bus. He's not running fast, let me tell you that much.

[Spencer Martin]

And I mean I actually looked into this and talked to someone that, that works for a team that's at every race and he said he runs every morning and he's never seen Primos out running the morning before a race.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

So if he is running, it's not a lot. Do you ever see him winning an Ironman? No, these, these triathletes are so fast. Like we've gone past the point of.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It's. It's actually. And I, I feel like the top iron. Iron people used to be other athletes would come from other sports now they're so good. They're born and bred in triathlon and they do not. You can't part time and Ironman win. These people are incredible.

[Johan Berniel]

By the way, speaking of other sports, you see Tom Dumoulin in, in his first ever marathon, right. Running 229.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I did see that. That's.

[Johan Berniel]

That's pretty impressive. 229. Man, that's fast for you know, somebody who was doing another sport his whole life.

[Spencer Martin]

Could he be training the same amount and still he probably would be a decent professional cyclist if he was putting just the same amount of work into riding. Hmm.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean his time has passed. You Know, he can also group. He burned out mentally at some point, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, it's what we were talking about earlier in the show with. I don't know how people do it mentally. It would be really hard.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Did you see the Tour of Switzerland? They tried to slide this in. Did you see it's five stages now?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, they've.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that is it. So it's down from eight. It was eight this last year. It used to be two weeks, right?

[Johan Berniel]

I did, when I, when I did it was 10 days.

[Spencer Martin]

10 days, yeah. So yeah, I'm like, it was actually 10 days until fairly recently and then, man, five days.

[Johan Berniel]

That.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that is a blow. I mean, to me it never made a ton of sense that you had two eight day stage races right before the Tour. But this means if you want to prepare for the Tour, seriously, you're going to. Or what is it called?

[Johan Berniel]

Different name now.

[Spencer Martin]

No Tour to Rhone Alps or something.

[Johan Berniel]

Rhone Alps, Auvergne or something like that.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I guess it wasn't in the Dauphine region, which is maybe the. One of the reasons why they changed the name, but I don't know. You gotta keep the name. We like the name, don't change it. Anything else, Johan, before we take off?

[Johan Berniel]

No, I think we covered a lot while. It's a long show. One, one hour, 15 minutes.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh boy, oh boy. We gotta get out of here. I must have had the. I was, I've been looking at the wrong clock the whole time. I was like, we're flying through this thing. My clock's moving at half spe.

[Johan Berniel]

Your kids are being really quiet.

[Spencer Martin]

I know.

[Johan Berniel]

We had, we had, you know, we had Spencer dealing with his kids and I had my personal assistant Bobby interrupting us. It's been quite an eventful show.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, much love to Bobby and we'll see you next week.

[Johan Berniel]

Yoha.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay, thank you everyone for joining us.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, bye, bye. Okay, bye.