Can Isaac Del Toro & Tadej Pogačar Co-Exist at UAE? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE+ — "Can Isaac Del Toro & Tadej Pogačar Co-Exist at UAE?"

Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Spencer Martin
Co-Host: Johan Bruyneel
Special Focus: The rise of Isaac Del Toro, UAE Team Emirates’ dominance, rider transfers, team politics, and a lively Q&A session.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the explosive rise of Isaac Del Toro and what his emergence means for UAE Team Emirates and Team-leader Tadej Pogačar. The hosts, Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel, offer inside knowledge on the World Tour’s most surprising results, unravel the implications of team mergers and dissolutions, analyze quirky aspects of the sport’s administration, and take on burning audience questions. The conversation covers not just current racing but the mechanics and politics shaping the future of professional cycling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Isaac Del Toro’s Meteoric Rise and UAE’s Historic Season

• Del Toro’s 16th Win: Johan highlights Del Toro’s “unstoppable” form and how it contributed to UAE's 95-win season, breaking historical records (00:21, 05:57).
  • “Listen, Del Toro, man... he’s unstoppable. These races, he’s so explosive.” — Johan (05:57)
• Team Tactics and Co-Leaders: UAE’s deep bench, with riders like Adam Yates and Del Toro able to win when Pogačar is absent, raises co-existence questions for team dynamics (06:50, 07:42).
• One-day Race Prowess: Del Toro “a better one day racer than Pogačar was at the same age” — impressive in Italian classics and semi-classics, winning 7 times in Italy during September and October (09:21).
• Del Toro’s Future Ambition: Speculation if Del Toro will bide his time at UAE or seek a team leadership role elsewhere as Pogačar’s shadow looms (06:50-07:58).
  • “If he’s smart, he just stays with Pogačar and then just waits until Pogačar retires, and then he's the man.” — Johan (06:50)
  • "Him going to another team does not make Tadej Pogačar disappear." — Spencer (07:42)

2. Race Roundup

• Tour of Guangxi: Dissected for its puzzling WorldTour status and race quality. Paul Magnier’s sprint dominance (17 wins) noted, but ridiculed as a "money race" for UCI (16:09, 17:25).
  • “Why is this a WorldTour race, Johan? ...the UCI got paid 7 million euros just for that race.” — Spencer (16:09), Johan (17:25)
• Tour of Holland & Semi-Classics: Both marvel at races popping up unexpectedly and question the calendar’s coherence and safety (24:26–25:14).
• Promotion/Relegation Battles: Analysis of the surge of Unox and relegation risks for Cofidis and TotalEnergies. Johan breaks down the complex merger and bankruptcy situations reshaping the lower ranks of WorldTour (11:05, 12:56–15:26).

3. Team Mergers, Management Drama & Finances

• Intermarché & Lotto Merger: Blurred lines between teams, backroom deals, and financial instability highlighted (11:05–14:08).
  • "It’s a bit messy, mergers. There’s too many contracts." — Johan (11:05)
• The ‘Paying Agent’ Explained: Johan provides insight into team corporate structure and liabilities for unpaid contracts (13:32).

4. Equipment Rules & UCI Controversies

• Aero “Madness”: Jan-Willem van Schip DQ’d (disqualified) for extreme bike position. Johan and Spencer debate aesthetics vs. safety, criticizing UCI’s late enforcement (26:44–30:49).
  • “If we don’t protect the aesthetics of the sport, we just become triathlon.” — Spencer (30:23)

5. 2026 Schedules, Transfers, and Mind Games

• Pogačar’s 2026 Calendar Speculation: Rumors swirl about targeting different Grand Tours or classics, but Spencer questions why such planning would be public so early (34:08–37:12).
  • “Why are we even talking about Tadej Pogačar’s 2026 schedule?” — Spencer (34:08)
• Del Toro, Vingegaard, and Giro-Tour Strategy: Hosts speculate if Del Toro’s trajectory could make him a Grand Tour leader soon (37:14–38:06).

6. Gravel Worlds & National Team Tactics

• Professional Infiltration: Road pros dominate at gravel World Championships, challenging the spirit and structure of gravel (43:05–49:44).
  • “The whole point of gravel is you have no teammates... individual sport.” — Spencer (44:44)
• Team Orders vs. Individual Racing: UCI criticized for attempting to meddle in national team (especially Dutch) tactics (46:17–49:44).
  • “Is the UCI now also going to dictate the tactics of which tactics teams have to use in their race?” — Johan (48:28).

7. Transfer Fees, Arbitration, and Contract Law

• Big Money Moves: The intricacies of major buyouts—Remco Evenepoel to Red Bull and Juan Ayuso to Lidl-Trek—for rumored €7–10 million, their risks, and ramifications (51:03–56:43).
  • “If those amounts are true… it’s too much. It’s exaggerated. It’s not…” — Johan (55:57)
• What Is the UCI’s Arbitration Board?: Literal confusion over the new or newly publicized UCI arbitration board as Derek Gee’s transfer dispute lands (51:03–53:57).

8. Lidl-Trek Leadership Problems

• Skjelmose, Ayuso, Milan & Pedersen: Tension is expected as so many high-profile riders vie for leadership and resources, with hints at possible internal friction (58:44–61:12).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Del Toro’s Potential:
  • "Man, that guy. 16 wins for a rider like that… imagine if he still improves and gets a bit stronger. What we're going to see next year, maybe in two years." — Johan (06:49)
• On Why the China WorldTour Race Exists:
  • "This is a race that historically, when Hein Verbruggen was still president, he started it… The owner or the rights owner of the race is the UCI. And I do know… UCI got paid 7 million euros just for that race." — Johan (17:25)
• On Sprinters Winning Every Stage:
  • "You say the sprinters are so good they can't be dropped. So you get a lot of sprint stages. But to have a stage race where the first five stages are sprints, like, why are we doing this?" — Spencer (25:30)
• On Aero Disqualifications:
  • "You know, it's just too much and he's known for this. ...if he rides by himself, let him do it. But if you ride in a peloton like this, I don't think it's acceptable." — Johan (29:51)
• On Team Management and Internal Drama:
  • "As soon as Contador took yellow, he had his own jerseys made, like, behind my back." — Johan, on Astana 2009 (73:08)
• On the ‘Gravel Spirit’:
  • "Gravel is an American sport. The whole point … you have no teammates. It's an individual sport." — Spencer (44:44)
• On Team Cohesion & Personality:
  • "Personality was very important for me. Very important. ...Whoever was considered to be on the long list for the Tour needed to fit into the philosophy of the team." — Johan (77:54)

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Important Timestamps

• Isaac Del Toro and UAE dominance: 00:21–07:58
• Italian semi-classics & Del Toro’s one-day racing: 09:21–10:16
• Team mergers, financial instability: 11:05–15:26
• Tour of Guangxi/China race and UCI profits: 16:09–18:57
• Jan-Willem van Schip’s disqualification and aero controversies: 26:44–31:37
• Pogačar/Del Toro leadership question: 34:08–37:12
• Gravel World Champs and UCI struggles with gravel: 43:05–49:44
• Major transfers & contract disputes: 51:03–57:16
• Lidl-Trek leadership drama: 58:44–61:12
• Cyclocross audience Q&A: 76:24–77:27
• Personality vs. power for team selection: 77:54–80:42

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Listener Q&A Highlights

• Jersey Design Oddities: The story behind Lance Armstrong and Alberto Contador’s different Astana jerseys due to sponsorship and fabric preferences — including Contador secretly supplying his own (70:35–73:08).
• Choosing Riders for Grand Tours: Johan emphasizes that personality and the ability to fit into the team’s philosophy matter as much as raw numbers — perhaps more so (77:54).
• Cyclocross Fandom: Both hosts, especially Spencer with his son, tune into cyclocross, finding it “nice weekend viewing with coffee” (76:49).

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Overall Tone & Style

Lively, irreverent, and deeply insider. The hosts mix detailed technical insight with dark humor and industry skepticism, never shying away from criticizing cycling’s quirks and politics. The episode is rich with race breakdowns, anecdotes from within the sport, and unfiltered takes.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This summary brings forward the key drama, both in the peloton and behind the scenes, and provides a roadmap to the complex politics, personalities, and evolving culture of modern pro cycling. Whether you care about racing tactics, team intrigue, or the business that fuels it all, this episode is packed with perspective straight from insiders who’ve lived it.

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Skip the ads, skip the filler. THEMOVE+ this week tells you everything you need to know about the state and soul of pro cycling in one wild, wide-ranging ride.

Transcript

[Spencer Martin]

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[Johan Berniel]

16, 16 win for Del Toro of the season. Number 95 for UAE. 95 wins this year. You know, it seems like yesterday when we were talking about will they beat 85, which was the record of HTC High Road, I think, or HTC Colombia many years ago. They're 95 now. I mean, they're probably not going to get to 100, but I mean, what a, what a season for UAE, right? But listen, Del Toro, man. I mean, it's. He's unstoppable.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody. Welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are back on our weekly grind. We will go through a few new recent races and news items from the week. And at the end, we'll take questions from listeners and people. Join the members are joining us live through our private YouTube stream. If you're a member and you're on the YouTube stream, just throw your question in the chat and we will get to those first and then we'll get to a few that are emailed into Infoido Team. But if you want to make sure your question's answered, make sure you sign up for a WEDO membership link in.

[Johan Berniel]

The show Notes before Spencer, tell everybody that they have to submit it through the YouTube app.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. Yes. If you are here currently and you're a member and you're like, whoa, where's this chat? What's going on? You got to click through to the app to see the chat. It won't show up in your phone's browser or in the members portal, but just one click, you'll be there. So let's take a quick break for our partner for today's show, Johan. And we'll be right back, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Which is why I recently said yes to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for $15 a month. And all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. And you can use your own phone with any Mint mo plan and bring your number with you along with your existing contacts. This is why I recently switched to Mint and immediately got high speed coverage all over the world. Which meant I had perfect coverage all summer when I was bouncing around between doing the doing the tour show in Aspen and visiting family in Europe. And a little little secret here. My wife's family has a high priced plan through a major carrier and they were left almost in tears in a park in Chamonix because they their their service was not working and I was the hero because I admit mobile and it was working. So don't fall victim to subpar high price plans. Make the [e-mail] themove that's mintmobile.com themove upfront payment of 45 required limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigs on the unlimited plan taxes and fees extra cement Mobile for details everybody. This episode is brought to you by Fabric by Gerber Life. As someone who spends a lot of time out on my bike, on the open road and has a family that depends on me, I worry a lot about what would happen if something happened to me. Which is why the idea of life insurance is incredibly appealing. And the truth is, even if you don't take part in risky activities, you likely need a plan for protecting your family if something unexpected ever happens to you. That's where Fabric by Gerber Life comes in. Fabric offers term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy parents like yourself. All online, all on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no no health exam required. And here's the thing. If you're young and healthy, now is the time to lock in those low rates. Even if you already have some coverage through your employer, that policy might not be enough and it might not follow you if you switch jobs. Fabric makes it simple and affordable with flexible, high quality policies that can fit your budget like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. So join thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] the move that's meetfabric.com the move M E E T fabric.com the move Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Price is subject to underwriting and health questions. Okay Johan, I know you've been glued to the TV watching these recent races. We've got a World Tour race going on right now. Tour of Guangxi. Why is this World Tour? I Have no idea. But to sum it up quickly, it's four stages and one winner. Paul Monier has won every stage. What's going on there? And then we also have Isaac del Toro winning earlier this week. A beautiful race. Giro del Veneto, 16th one of the season. I think this guy looks better every race I see him in. And we also had the Tour of Holland, which I didn't know was a race. That just kind of popped up on the schedule. Yeah. And then did you see there was this Tour of a Ropa or just. I. I didn't even know this was a race. It just seemed to show up on the schedule. Why did we get. It was like this. A Ropa.

[Johan Berniel]

What?

[Spencer Martin]

It was the day after Lombardia.

[Johan Berniel]

Adam Yates. Adam Yates won. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And that UAE sent, like, a full team there. Like, Adam Yates won. Jay vine third. Chris Christian Scarroni fourth. Was complaining that he asked Jay vine for third, and jayvine didn't give it to him. What is going on? The youth of the world today. Come on, you got to earn your podium spots. But what. Let's start with Giro del Veneto. I thought that was the most interesting race of the recent past. What did you think about Isaac del Toro's win?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, 16th, 16th win for Del Toro of the season. Number 95 for UAE. 95 wins this year. You know, it seems like yesterday when we were talking about will they beat 85, which was the record of HTC High Road, I think, or HTC Colombia many years ago. They're 95 now. I mean, they're probably not going to get to 100. But, I mean, what a. What a season for UAE, right? But listen, Del Toro, man, I mean, it's. He's unstoppable, you know, I mean, these races, he's so explosive. He goes. He. When he attacked, beautifully set up by the team. And especially. Who was it? Was it Civakov who set him up? Yeah. Who finished second, by the way, in that. In that race also.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, but.

[Johan Berniel]

But, yeah, and Del Toro, he's, you know, I mean, when he goes and Pogacha is not there, it's difficult for. For anybody to follow. Who was. It was Romain Gregoire who was trying to follow him. He was, you know, glued to his wheel and just got dropped. Man, that guy. 16 wins for a rider like that. Imagine if he still improves and gets a bit stronger. What we're going to see next year, maybe in two years. So, you know, we're probably going to start to see then an Isaac Del Toro who gets really ambitious and maybe we'll have to look for another team if Pugach is there. Although if I think if he's smart, you know, he just stays with Pagachar and then just waits until Pugach retires and then he's the man, you know?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, okay. My neighbor actually asked me about this randomly on the street. Him going to another team does not make Ty Pagacha disappear like he still exists. So his chances of winning the Tour de France are no greater than if Pagachar is on his team or not.

[Johan Berniel]

No, I mean, no, I mean the big races. The big races that if del Toro races some of the big races together with Bugach, are Bugach going to. Going to win either way, whether he's on UAE or not. If a rider like Del Toro, if you're on the same team as the best rider of the world, which is Pugachar, your chances actually increased to win some races. Because, you know, there will be races where Pagacha are so supervised. I mean, maybe he's. I mean, doesn't matter right now if he's supervised or not. He just rides away from everybody. But, you know, not all. Not every year is the same. So. Yeah, man, what a talent. Del Toro, you know, we could see it coming, right? The way he won Tour de La a few years ago and then straight away in his first year, in his first race, actually, I think. Didn't he win his. Didn't he win a race in his first race?

[Spencer Martin]

It was a Tour down under. Yeah. World Tour race. First race as a pro. I'm just gonna win it. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

No, he didn't win the race. He. He won a stage.

[Spencer Martin]

Won a stage.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, he want to stay.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, the whole thing. Third overall, though. Finished on the podium.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, incredible talent and, and you know, what a, what a series he had also in Italy. Right. I think he won six races in Italy in the last few months. Six or seven, I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

In September and October, he won 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 races in Italy.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

In the last month, basically.

[Johan Berniel]

And Spencer, those races are not easy to win those semi classics, man, they are hard. I mean, it's, it's extremely difficult to win those races. And it's like, you know, they're, they fit. Fit as a glove to, to Del Toro, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he's a better one day racer than Pagacha was at the same age. And you say these are hard races, hard to win. Did you notice who got Third as your Del Veneto. Was it, was it probably the biggest guy in the race, Jonas Auber Hunson. Oh, that was a hard course. But you could tell he was, he was specifically targeting the podium. They weren't even trying to chase del Toro once he was away because they just want the points.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, listen, Abraham son is. He's an atypical rider. I think he's so strong. He, you know, for his weight, he climbs extremely well and he's super fast. He's strong. He's a, he's a strong sprinter. He's like, you know, he just starts going and does not slow down. Yeah, it's not like a guy who has an acceleration, but it's, it's incredible how strong he is.

[Spencer Martin]

And yeah, in that third place, he gets 125 UCI points. He's. Now that puts his Unox team just a little over 400 points ahead of Kofidis in the relegation promotion three year cumulative ranking. How is that not straightforward to people? It's, it's clear as mud. And it looks like Unox will be promoted into the World Tour next year. I think so. Super impressive.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, I think so. I mean, you know, they're, they're, they're finishing 19th in the rankings, but, you know, because of the situation that Arkea is disappearing. But they are not top 19. Anyway. Arkea, I think. And then it's Inter Marche and Lotto who are merging, so that's one team less. So the 19th, are they merging? They are merging. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they are merging. I mean, they filed an official request now with the UCI. Yeah, Intermarshe is done. That team is done. All the riders have been told that either they make the merge, they make the move to the new team, or they have to look for another team. It's a bit messy, mergers. There's too many contracts. So the way it works is if there's what they call a paying agent, which is a company which is responsible for the money and the contracts and receiving the sponsorship money and paying your providers and your riders. So if there are riders with a contract with that company, you don't have a contract with a team, you have a contract with a company which manages the team. That's the way it works. They call it the paying agent, the financial responsible entity. So if there are writers with a contract and they do not find a team, then this company is responsible for paying out that contract. So, yeah, it's, it's not straightforward. You know, there's there's. There's a lot of negotiations to be done still.

[Spencer Martin]

And Inter Marche is a weird team because they. I don't want to use the word Ponzi scheme, but the foundation is built on sand, let's say, because they just lose money every year. Like last year they lost or. Sorry, the team's been racking up big losses. The 2022 accounts pledged to fix this, but they, they lost 2 million euros in 2023. And then they had to get €500,000 injected by an unnamed shareholder in a 2 million euro loan from one of the team's sponsor just to keep them on the road. I don't know why you would merge with this team, because you're just going to inherit those liabilities, right?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, probably not. I mean, I think that's separate. I think that they're actually not merging. I think they. As far as I know. I mean, I don't know exactly in which capacity the sponsor, Intermarshe, joins Lotto, I've heard somewhere. Where did I hear that? I think it was gonna be Brico Marche. At least that's a rumor. That's like a subdivision of Intermarshe. It's like a bricolage. Bricolage. Is that a name? Bricolage. Is that a word?

[Spencer Martin]

Bricolage.

[Johan Berniel]

Bricolage.

[Spencer Martin]

It's in French.

[Johan Berniel]

Maybe do it yourself. Like, like, you know. Yeah, do it yourself shop. So anyway, Brico Marche is, Is reportedly the. Gonna be in the name. The bike sponsor remains Orbea, and basically they're just changing. The guy who, who was running Inter Marche was a Belgian writer, a Belgian guy from, From Wallonia. What's his name? Jean Claude? I don't know, but. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, man. I. I don't think it's. I don't think it's great this, this, these two teams getting together. What's for sure is that Lotto, the company, Lotto remains at the helm of the team and they're the ones making decisions. So the guy who comes in from Intermarshe just becomes the CEO, but he has people from the National Lottery above him.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. I wonder what's happening to that loan from either Wanty or Inter Marche. And then they still have unpaid wages. I just. I don't know.

[Johan Berniel]

And bonuses also.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, Yeah. A certain green jersey bonus, probably.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, you know, there's the bank guarantee, you know, at the UCI, which ultimately will probably be used for that, but I don't know if that's.

[Spencer Martin]

Enough, especially if they have unpaid loans of that amount. I don't really get this merger. I guess we'll find out more as things unfold on more racing. And this has been thrilling. Tour of Guangxi. It's just wonderful. This is a World Tour race. Just four straight sprint stages, all won by Paul Monnier. Pavel Bittner getting second multiple times. Paul Monnier, we should say. Super impressive. What is this? His 17th win of the season. He's 21 years old. Like, that's really impressive. Why is this a World Tour race, Johan?

[Johan Berniel]

Like, what's going on here every day? Spencer? I can't wait. You know, when I wake up and I go for a bike ride, I come back and I can't wait. I'm so excited to turn on the footage of this exciting World Tour race in China in Wangi. You know, it's ridiculous in my opinion. You know, you can have a race in China. That's for. That's fine. But, you know, to make it a World Tour race. It's been a World Tour race for a while now, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

For a while, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

The reason is very simple, Spencer. It. This is a race that historically, I think when Verbruggen, when Heim Verbruggen was still president, he started with a race in China. It was not in Guangxi, it was somewhere else. But it's basically a race owned by the UCI. Owned by the UCI, Organized by. I don't know who, maybe aso, I don't. May, probably aso, I don't remember. But anyway, the owner or the rights owner of the race is the UCI. And I do know that many years ago for that race in China, the UCI got paid 7 million euros just for that race. So you can guess what the reason is. Why it's a world.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's a lot of money for the UCI.

[Johan Berniel]

It's a lot of significant. It's a lot of money. And, you know, it's the race. Listen, and then to think, Spencer, I mean, I was thinking this, you know, yesterday or the day before, you know, this was supposed to be the race where the UCI was going to test this new rule on limited gears. And you look at the footage, they're racing on highways. You know, there's no bends, there's. It's all straightforward, huge roads. That test would have had zero results. We would have learned anything from it. So anyway, now we talked about it last week, you know that finally SRAM won their case. And, you know, the. The UCI is not allowed to implement the. The gearing limit for the moment. But, but yeah, it's, listen, great for Paul Magnier, you know, I mean, 21 years old, by the way, I got some information on him. Peak power, 1900 watts.

[Spencer Martin]

Holy smokes. No wonder he's winning all these races.

[Johan Berniel]

1900 watts. And apparently I, I, I have been told I haven't found anything, but it seems that Paul Magnier, before he turned a road racer, he was a mountain biker and was really good at climbing.

[Spencer Martin]

He's not that big, you know, like he, he's only 70 kilos. So for someone putting out 1900 watts, that's pretty.

[Johan Berniel]

Did you see, did you see today's sprint? I mean, he was, I don't, I would, I would love to see the, the, the speed because I think it was slightly downhill. He did not get out of the saddle. He won that sprint seated. Did not get one side of the saddle. You know, listen, the competition is not super, but you know, there's, for example, there's Jordy Meus, who beat all the fastest printers on the Champs Elysees in the Tour de France. Already, you know, there's, there's, there's a.

[Spencer Martin]

There'S a few, few is a Grand Tour stage winner, Bittner.

[Johan Berniel]

Did he win in the Vuelta or. Yeah, yeah. So listen, that, you know, great. I mean, he also won three stages in a Tour of Poland, by the way, didn't he?

[Spencer Martin]

Paul Monier.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Or Pavel. Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, he must have to have that many wins. You're just winning. Wait, no, yeah, yeah, he did Tour pull. He just won one stage.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

I think you're thinking of the Tour of. And how could you forget this? Tour of Slovakia.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, Sorry, sorry, sorry. No, no, no, he won. No, no. He won three stages in the Tour of Great Britain.

[Spencer Martin]

This is, well, actually, this is what I'm looking at is so Tour of Poland, who wins the stage? Renui. Tour doesn't win because that's very difficult. Tour of Slovakia. It's like he's on a tour of Eastern, former Eastern bloc countries like Slovakia, Croatia. Crow race. All we just have to. They need a new name. Crow race. I listen to back to our episodes. It sounds like I'm talking about a race named after the bird. Crow. You say Crow race. Like they maybe need to rebrand that. They didn't think that through. But he has 20. He has 18 wins on the season. That's second behind Tat 17. It says 18 on the ranking already.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

And he's two behind. Tad epic. Clearly the quality is different between those two. What does. Remember, he did the gird Italia. I think we were hyping him up and he looked a little like. They call it big league syndrome in baseball where you're overwhelmed by the size of the stadium and you're not hitting as well as you did in the minors. What does his next year look like? Like he'll be 22. Does he step up and kind of do a more difficult world tour based schedule, you think? Or do they keep him in these smaller races?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, I think it's going to be a mix. I don't know. Something must have happened to him early in the season because I, I do remember he won a stage early on and then he kind of didn't win anymore until May or June I think at June.

[Spencer Martin]

I think.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. He didn't win anything. He won. Let's see. I think he won the first. Yeah, he won the first race of the season in. In and then didn't win anything until June 7th. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And then he just kept winning. Yeah. Really impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I guess he was probably preparing for the zero and then was trashed from the zero. So that, that can be a big. Well, he also got set. This is crazy. He got second at Figuria Champions Classic. We all love that second at Amloop. I had frankly forgotten about that second at Siam. It used to be ly, now it's aname s. It was second behind Vanderpoel. So really good results there.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, no, he's, I've been told he's, you know, he's more than a sprinter. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Watch out. Yeah. Jasper Phillipson.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, you know, I mean some, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's not even, I mean not even comparable. But you know, some people say that he would. He potentially could be the next Tombone.

[Spencer Martin]

Has he ever raced a cobbled Classic though?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

I love that he's the next time boot and he's never actually started a Cobble Classic but if he had, he.

[Johan Berniel]

Was 62nd in the tour of Flanders.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, perfect. I mean. Well, I mean but think about Philipson like he, he's actually, he, he didn't. I don't think he was doing a lot of those races that a younger age and now he's getting two second places every. So it's possible. It's not impossible. And he's very good.

[Johan Berniel]

I, I don't know. I don't know about that. I mean Bonin was pretty impressive. Is it three times. Three times Flanders, four times Rube. I Think it might be. I mean, four times re. That I'm sure. I'm sure about that. I don't know how many times Flanders. I would say three.

[Spencer Martin]

You're right. Three times Flanders, four times Rebate world champion. You were there when this happened. Like wasn't. He was on George. He was George's teammate.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he was supposed to be as domestique and he was very young and he almost was better than George's first year on the team, right?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. He was new professional first year pro. He was third in Roubaix.

[Spencer Martin]

That's crazy. Especially back then it wasn't as common.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he's got. You think Paul Monier is kind of going to be the future of like with Remco gone, they got to be putting everything on.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean. Yeah, well, let's not forget they have another guy who wins a lot of races also. You know, Tim earlier.

[Spencer Martin]

Tim earlier. It doesn't. He says he went in Tour of Guangxi. I don't think so. Come on, Tim, you got to step up. But that's good.

[Johan Berniel]

Tour of the Netherlands. He won the first Tour of the Netherlands.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes. Where did this race come from? Is this new? I don't ever.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, I. I discovered two weeks ago I was talking to someone who says, yeah, I'm going to the Tour of Holland. I mean we always say the Tour of Holland, Tour of the Netherlands. You know, I said what. I mean it did exist back in the days, but now for some reason they. Yeah, they have revived it. I mean it looks a bit. I mean there's not many riders. It looks dangerous to me. You know, narrow roads, many parked cars.

[Spencer Martin]

It's usually today's stage got canceled.

[Johan Berniel]

Got canceled because. Yeah, so I mean it is recently a problem in the Netherlands to organize bike races because of the lack of police that they can actually get. But yeah, it doesn't look like a very safe race to me. Still. I mean there's some really good sprinters there, you know. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I do think people a lot of hand wringing about Tati Pagacha ruining the sport because he wins everything. I would say a good place to start is. I follow cycling very closely and I'm often confused by the races that pop up where they. They don't seem to be marketed. I don't know what they are. Where do they even fit into the tapestry of the season? Why are they all sprint stages? I guess you. I think you were. This was in the pre record. You're saying the sprinters are so good they can't be dropped. So you get a lot of sprint stages. But to have a stage race where the first five stages are sprints, like, why are we doing this?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

You would question why someone would watch that.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, you know, you're talking about Guangxi.

[Spencer Martin]

Guangxi and even, you know, Tour of Holland. I mean Holland, you're a little constricted.

[Johan Berniel]

There was a prologue and a time trial yesterday.

[Spencer Martin]

She would have two time trials.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I guess the prologue was more, you know, more a show off, a showcase.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, four kilometers. But anyways, you know, it was. There's 19 kilometers of time trial in. In this small race where that's sometimes like we've seen big tours with that. That amount of time trial kilometers.

[Spencer Martin]

But anyway, speaking of.

[Johan Berniel]

Spencer, speaking of, I wanted to, you know, pause on this for a second Tour of Holland. This guy, Jan, Willem Van Schip. Most of the people won't know this guy. He got disqualified. We can, you know, pull up the pictures here for his extreme aerodynamic position. I mean, if you look at this position and you look at the bike and I know this is, by the way, this is the third time in the last few years he's getting disqualified from a race. Because this is a guy who looks, you know, get tried to get on the limit of within the rules and then the rules are sometimes not clear. So they let him race because he does. He's on a small team. He doesn't do big races. But I know a lot of riders who are. I mean, first of all, I have to say I'm happy he gets disqualified with this position because this is ridiculous.

[Spencer Martin]

This bike is crazy. I don't know if we're going to show it in here for it to impost, but it is nuts.

[Johan Berniel]

Like.

[Spencer Martin]

Absolutely. What's the stem? The stem must be over 200 millimeters.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know what it is.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's all, you know, it's all aftermarket, you know, modified.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

First of all, I think in first the equipment, the way it's. It's not safe. This can break at any moment. Yeah, the stem, the handlebars, the seat post. He's actually. He got disqualified for the seat post, not for the handlebar. So how. I mean, but, you know, I know riders who have been riding with him or next to him or behind him in the peloton and they say it is freaking scary. It's basically a normal road race, handlebars. But it's modified to an extent that it's so Narrow on top that he's in a time trial position like he's in a position like on a time trial bike, but an extreme time proposition. So, yes, I think, you know, there's been, there's been, there's been people who said, yeah, you know, poor guy, they disqualify him, the UCI and this and that. You could argue, you could say, okay, why does he disqualified? Because he's on tv. He's been on TV because he did, he did an attack which was on tv. And, and actually the call apparently came from Switzerland, from the UCI to the commissaires, that you have to disqualify this guy. Why is he even allowed to start or. I mean, he's done multiple stage races already. Why has this not been addressed yet? If the rules are so clear, then, you know, if they disqualified him now, it's because they know that they are sure they have a case if they test his position to the rules. So why are we in the last race of the season? He's been riding like this the whole year, you know. Yeah, but anyways, I think on the other hand, it's, it's. Yeah, I mean, we're talking so much about safety. This is not safe. This is not safe for him and it's not safe for other riders because there is no way with a position like that that you are stable on your bike. And especially on those kind of technical courses like the Tour of the Netherlands with, you know, narrow roads, lots of corners. Yeah, it's, it's ridiculous. So green card for the UCI for disqualifying young Bulim von Skip with this ridiculous position. That's my opinion.

[Spencer Martin]

And I mean, also, it's not. You have, like, these are serious races. This is not a race around the houses. Tim, earlier, like one of the best sprinters in the sport. You don't want these people subject to danger like that. But also, I am a fan of banning these just from an aesthetics case. Like if we don't, if we don't protect the aesthetics of the sport, we just become triathlon and that, that can't happen, Johan. We have to protect it.

[Johan Berniel]

This, this position, you know, if he rides by himself, you know what I mean? Let him do it. You know, let him do it. It's, you know, his seat post may break, his handlebars, his stem may break, but he's not putting anybody in danger. But if you ride in a peloton like this, I don't think it's acceptable. This, you know, it's just too much and he's known for this. I don't know if he's, you know, if he's like an engineer or a scientist or. He's definitely a strange character who has. I mean, he's been doing this for a number of years already. I mean, if we would go back and look for several different positions or inventions or modifications of equipment, it comes almost always from Jumbo and Van Schip.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Well, let's take a quick ad break, and then I have a few questions for you about Pagachar's 2026 schedule. And then I know you just are dying to talk about Gravel World Championships, so we'll let you get to that as well. But we'll be right back with that, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. What is Gusto, you might ask? Well, it's an online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remot friendly and incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. When I started my beyond the Peloton newsletter, I wanted to break down professional cycling in in minute detail, not calculate tax withholdings. So as the business grew, I quickly realized I needed help so I could get back to focusing on the nitty gritty of pro cycling. That's where Gusto has been a lifesaver. It offers automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers comp 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for near every budget. It has unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price, no hidden fees, no surprises. It's quick and simple to sign up to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get it up and running fast, and don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Try Gusto [e-mail] the Move and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months free of [e-mail] the move one more time. G-U-S-T-O.com TheMove the Move is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. All right, Johann. I just a qu I was confused when I saw this news and I don't know how legitimate it is, but why are we even talking about Tate Picacho's 2026 six schedule. Why would this even be out? But I saw an article, I did not verify it, that he might be skipping Roubaix next year to focus on the Giro d', Italia, like you sit talking about. Isaac del Toro reminded me of this. Because the obvious move would be del Toro targets the Giro and Tade goes Tour Vuelta, because he's not won the Vuelta before. Why would he go back to the Vuelta? And I thought the whole plan was to start winning. So, yeah, go back, go to the Giro. I thought the whole plan was to win races that he hadn't won. And Roubaix would be the. The major one of those. Yeah. Why would this happen?

[Johan Berniel]

I haven't seen anything about him doing the Giro. I have seen rumors that. That Jonas might be thinking about doing the. The Giro, which, you know, I think it would be. Would be a smart move for him too. You know, as long as today is not there, it probably wins zero. So he would have won all three. But no, I haven't seen anything about him doing the Giro, skipping Rube. It's not confirmed. But I did see quotes from the team management, I think Mauro Janetti, who said that they actually would like him not to do Paris next year. Now, whether that's going to be the case, I mean, they may ask him to not do it, but if he still wants to do it, he'll still do it. I think they. I think they told him also this year, well, you know, you shouldn't do it. But he said, yeah, I want to do it anyways.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it sounds familiar.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But honestly, I think. I think it's too early. I think all of the. All of the teams are also waiting now for the Grand Tours to announce the courses. You know, the Giro's announcing bit by bit, the Tour in a few weeks. Or is it next week already? Next week.

[Spencer Martin]

It's next. Next Thursday.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, next week. So, you know, I think everybody's going to wait and see what the course. I mean, most of the teams are the favorites. They already know. I mean, like today, I can guarantee you today. Pugach knows has already the Tour de France course in its possession. But the big announcement is next week, right? Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I would also imagine he would do it no matter what the course is. Doesn't really matter sitting around, you know, who used to. It still bothers me. I need to let it go. Tom Dumoulin would always skip the Tour because the course wasn't good. My man, the Tour is written the same way. No matter what the course is. Show up to the show. You're a good rider. Show up to the best race.

[Johan Berniel]

But he finished second one year.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, but he finished second because he did this year before it. Johann, he tried to hedge it, and he got second at the Giro, second at the Tour. Yeah. And then if he just would have focused on the Tour, he probably would have won that Tour. I. I'm still not over it.

[Johan Berniel]

That's won.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Gar Thomas was pretty good, so maybe he wouldn't have beat him, but actually it was one of the best season. No one. No one ever talks about. He got second at the Giro, second at the Tour, fourth at Worlds. Like, nothing to show for it, but that's a really impressive.

[Johan Berniel]

Was that in Innsbruck that he. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But people probably overrate courses in general. Grand Tours are written in a pretty static way. But I. I just wonder if this is like, almost mind games too. Like. Well, now they have Jonas. Oh, is he going to go to the. Is Tade going to the zero? Maybe, maybe not. But I think you're right. Like, if you're Jonas, you've got to just do the races that Picachar is not doing, because you can't bank on beating him at the Tour de France.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Also, does he beat Del Toro at this Giro? That's a. That's a question.

[Johan Berniel]

What's that?

[Spencer Martin]

Does Jonas beat. He's like Del Toro at the Giro d' Italia next year, I think. I don't know if that's a lock.

[Johan Berniel]

In the big mountains. Man, he's pretty strong. Yonasio.

[Spencer Martin]

He is. He's strong. But. But Del Toro, I. It all depends on how much he improves, but he's improving so fast. It is kind of freaky how good he's getting.

[Johan Berniel]

No, listen, if this progression keeps going from next year on, he's becoming a big problem for a lot of riders in the ground Tours. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Because that's the big weakness right now. It's these big mountain days.

[Johan Berniel]

But still, that was pretty hard. He's pretty good in the big mountain. I mean, he. He did a really good. I mean, he did a really good performance. And on. On. Although he lost the Giro there, but he did a good performance on that climb on the finisher.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. You'll only remember it because he lost the zero there, but he. He did it with. With Carapaz.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Who's known as a high altitude climber. So at 21 years old, that's not. Not a bad result. Moving on to UCI World Gravel Championships this Is very, very strange because it's. It was the same day which used to be a bigger race, and it's.

[Johan Berniel]

Now a gravel race.

[Spencer Martin]

It's now. It's. It has. It has plug streets in it. It's. I think it's for the best because what we just talked about. These sprinters are so good. If you don't throw in things like that, everything will just be a sprint.

[Johan Berniel]

Pars, man. Pars was the classic of the sprinters back in the days. Now, lots of riders, I mean, they lost the race because of flat tires. These, these gravel. I mean, I don't think they call it. Do they call it blue streets? No, they don't call it blue streets. Block streets is. Forget wavelength. I don't know how they call it.

[Spencer Martin]

These are just sections of gravel. I. I like it. I think it's. I thought the race was dying because they redid the middle of tours like the town, and I thought the race was dying when they. When they ripped out that famous finish to put the tram in. I thought it was kind of on its last legs and I think they've revitalized it. Yeah, it's.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's spectacular. It's spectacular. Anyways, listen, third. Third time Matteo Trentin in his old day to. To, you know, come back at the end and winning the sprint, that was a nice victory, man. That was pure experience, pure professional, pure patience. And coming out at the last moment, he was. Yeah. Third time he wins that race. That's easier said than done.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, you want to feel old. He first won it in 2015. It's 10 years ago. I remember that finish. And this new course has been happening since 2027. I thought it was a new thing, but it's actually been going on a long time that they've had gravel since 2020.

[Johan Berniel]

No, 20.

[Spencer Martin]

2017, not 2027.

[Johan Berniel]

2017.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. That would be tough. What did you think of these weird tactics at the end? I thought this. I thought this was the best race of the week. And I thought it outshined the gravel world championships as a gravel race. Yeah, but the finish was very weird where decathlon had a rider away with another writer sitting. It's Paul Lapera. They sit up, they let the group catch on. But the moment the group catches on, it was always going to be Trenton or Laporte. Right.

[Johan Berniel]

But yeah, yeah, I mean, normally you would. You would have thought because Bissinger was in that little group behind who wasn't taking any pulls normally because he had a teammate in front, I would have Expected that he would, you know, have done a massive attack. Just before they caught him, they called them, and I think he was dead. You know, he couldn't do it anymore. And then let out Paul La Pera. But yeah, listen, it has happened before, you know, in Paris Tour, that once they come on that last boulevard, they start to look at each other and they get caught. These two French young riders, apparently, that guy from Groupama, I forgot his name now, but he. Apparently he's pretty fast. So he was Thibaut Guru. Yeah, so he is pretty fast in bunch prints. So La Pera is also fast, but was not confident at all. And yeah, they. They lost it. They lost it. And. Yeah. So who was this? Trentin And Trentin. And. And who was third?

[Spencer Martin]

And then Albert Whitten Phillipson.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, yeah, wow. I mean, 19 years old, that guy. He was also third in another race. I forget which one. Now, in Italy, a hard race which was, I think won by Pogachar, actually.

[Spencer Martin]

He got second at Trey Vallee.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, third, Third, second, second.

[Spencer Martin]

Pagachar wins solo. And then Albert Whitten Phillipson won that bunch sprint.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, wow.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, not bad. Pretty good writer. Decent writer. You have to.

[Johan Berniel]

Spencer, for certain listeners, you have to mention that it's sarcasm when you say that.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, he's pretty good.

[Johan Berniel]

He's pretty good.

[Spencer Martin]

He's got a solid career. He might. He might podium at UCI World Gravel Championship Sunday. I thought. Speaking.

[Johan Berniel]

Speaking of the gravel Championship, Spencer. Okay, you know, it's.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's the world championships, and for that reason, it's. It's ridden by national teams. Right? It was in the Netherlands. And, you know. Okay, what's his name? Florian Vermeers. Won the professional race. Strongest rider in the race, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

After second career win, I believe.

[Johan Berniel]

Right. I don't know. I don't know. But he was already two times second in one time behind. Behind Mohoric, I think, one time behind Van der Poel. And now this year, he. He wins it. Not because he was in the Belgian selection, just because he was the strongest rider. But, man, the women's race, that was something. We have these. The majority of the. Of the riders in front are actually road professionals. And here it was actually Mariana Vos, Lorena Webes, Shirin van Androy, Yara. Was it Yara Castellane, I think. Yeah, Yara Castellane. So all, you know, there was this Italian lady also, and then there was this Czech lady who forgot she had a Czech Jersey and she. Because she was racing to help Lorena Weavers, because they're teammates on SD Works.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, well, yeah, as an American, I can speak with expert, with an expert perspective on this because gravel is an American sport. The whole point of gravel is you have no teammates.

[Johan Berniel]

It's an individual sport.

[Spencer Martin]

It's an individual sport. Yes. So the. The Dutch chased down a Dutch rider and win the sprint with.

[Johan Berniel]

Listen, there was one. One thing that I couldn't really understand. It was Yara Castellane, who was not a fast sprinter, who chased down another Dutch lady shining van Android, who was probably going to win when Mariana Vos and Loran Wibes are there. That didn't make much sense to me. But, you know, there's been criticism to, for example, this Czech rider. Her name is Kopecki. Also. It's not Lotta Kopecki, she's actually from Czech Republic. But races, you know, 364 days out of the year for SD works teammate of Lorena Webes. So she was there by herself and she did the majority of the work to catch the Dutch rider, Shirin van Androy, who was escaped. So, you know, it was not. Of course there's going to be commercial interests. You, you cannot, you cannot avoid this. You know, I mean, it's not because that one day, all of a sudden, you're racing in your. In the. In the. There's definitely instructions from the team also that, okay, if you're ahead and Lorena Web is there, you know, SD works. We want to win this Specialized. We want to win this. You know, I mean, yeah, this is huge for a bike brand.

[Spencer Martin]

It's a big deal for the bike brands. Yes.

[Johan Berniel]

So.

[Spencer Martin]

But, you know, I was.

[Johan Berniel]

I was really, really, really surprised to see two days later. First of all, I mean, how can you expect that The Dutch team, for example, I don't know what the rules are exactly, but there was a lot of Dutch riders. I think it's 20, 20 riders, any five riders, so.

[Spencer Martin]

And there was like 80 finishers.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So first of all, Spencer, the difference with gravel is. And this World Championships gravel, because this is yet another discipline that the UCI has appropriated. You know, there's this new discipline that starts gravel racing. UCI sees it's going to be successful. Okay. We're going to rule this. You know, you could say, well, you know, why does it need to be UCI? UCI? I mean, the two most iconic races in gravel, I think it's. What is it Unbound? It's unbound.

[Spencer Martin]

Unbound, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

It would be one unbound and then you have. In Spain, you have Latraka. They're not UCI races. They are not.

[Spencer Martin]

The whole point of them is that they are not ucr.

[Johan Berniel]

Exactly.

[Spencer Martin]

They exist outside of.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So the biggest races of gravel are not UCI races. But yet there's a UCI World Championships where the UCI has to say, okay, this is with national federations, but there's no select. The national federations don't make a selection. All these riders have to earn their selection by either qualifying for events or by having a certain amount of points as an elite writer. And then you get an automatic start entry. Right. And then I saw, and I know, for example, I know that there's been communication within the Dutch team that, okay, this is an individual race. There's no team tactics, everybody for themselves. I think that's fine, because if the riders have to fight for their selection, it's not the federation who selects and then gives instructions on team tactics. But I was really surprised to see the UCI through the. I think he's number three in the UCI. It's a Belgian guy called Peter von denabele. He's the sports director of the UCI. I didn't know that the UCI needed a sports director, but anyway, that's his title. He's the sports director, whatever that means. He gave an interview, you know, slamming the. Use the. The. The. The Dutch Federation and the Dutch national coach, Lawrence Ten Dam, who is now the coach of the Dutch Women's Championships and for the World Championships and European Championships, saying, yeah, you know, this is impossible. This is, you know, how can you do this? You know, this? It's, you know, and I was thinking, is the UCI now also going to dictate the tactics of which tactics teams have to use in their race? I mean, it's like, like, you know. Yeah, you should, you know, he should, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Anyways, they start to get into, like, WWE territory. It's like, well, that's not what we plan. Yeah, we didn't want that to happen. Why do the writers not listen to us?

[Johan Berniel]

That's a bunch of. Peter van den Abele. Sorry, you're Belgian, but I'm not your fan.

[Spencer Martin]

I thought, too. I thought the men. The women's race was interesting, obviously, because we're talking about it a week later. The men's race, these. They just break up too early. I'm not even convinced gravel's a good spectator sport. I thought Perry Tour is. Is. That's like an actually good prototype for a professional gravel race, but these things break up too early. I was also Wrong. Florian Verme. It's his first world title. Johnny Vermeesh won a gravel world title, not Florian Vermeish. Yeah, it is big. Got to be big for Colonago. I didn't know Colonago had a gravel bike.

[Johan Berniel]

I didn't know until. I didn't know until I saw the world championships.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And I thought it looked pretty good. And now I'm more likely to buy it. So that's. That shows you how they do it.

[Johan Berniel]

That picture of Florian Vermeers crossing the finish line, holding up that bike, that's gold for a bike.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, because gravel bikes nowadays are, you know, after E bikes, probably the most sold type of bike. Yep.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, I have a gravel and a road bike. If I was just going to recommend a bike someone buy, I would just say get the Phantom GS1 if you just want one bike, because you can do everything with it. Gravel bikes are great on. Before we get to question time, we should mention Derek. We talked about Derek G. Last week. Apparently his case has been moved to the UCI's arbitration board. I didn't know that existed. Had never heard of it.

[Johan Berniel]

Me neither.

[Spencer Martin]

What is this?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, normally if you talk about arbitration, you talk about the Court of Arbitration for Sports, which is, you know, the.

[Spencer Martin]

Cass.

[Johan Berniel]

Cass, whatever, you know, like I know. I mean, I'm not gonna go into detail, but it's. It's a court. But anyways, that's the official court for dispute, so. Yeah, I saw. UCI arbitration board. I don't know if that's new or if they just came up with it.

[Spencer Martin]

Now.

[Johan Berniel]

I had never heard of it before, but apparently the UCI is now also the judge in certain disputes.

[Spencer Martin]

And I wonder. The only thing I could think of. Johan, remember this was after UDA Brooks left Visma. Red Bull left Rebel to go to Visma. They put these new rules into effect where you. It is actually codified how you're supposed to talk to writers and how you can break a contract. And maybe with those rules, they have like an arbitration board to see if he broke his. Broke his contract correctly. Because you're not supposed to do it without informing your team. And your team's supposed to have, like, full awareness of it. I'm sure they didn't.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think we have the full details. As I said last year, last week, Spencer, you know, when Derek G. And his legal advisors have announced to the team that they were, you know, breaking the Contract. I think they had their homework done that, you know, now we will see personally, I think and we get back into the same debate. You know, it's like what's going to complicate things here is the sporting rules. Because the sporting rules, they're always, you know, they're not clear. They're not most of, most of the time they're not legal. If this goes to a normal court, which is a court of law of, you know, labor law, it's going to be pretty simple and short. The thing is that this takes time. But I think the ruling would be pretty, pretty clear. If somebody has just cost to break a contract, then it's just a matter of what's the compensation. You know, it's definitely not going to be, not going to be the 30 million that, you know, Silver Adams is asking for. It needs to be.

[Spencer Martin]

What did Littlechuck pay?

[Johan Berniel]

Sorry?

[Spencer Martin]

What did Littlechuck pay UAE? I heard it was 10 million.

[Johan Berniel]

It's a lot. I mean it's too much. But it's still, it's a tenth of what the contract said. The breaking clause was apparently 100 million, which was ridiculous.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I heard they ended up paying. It was the three years left times the amount he got paid per year. Which is what you said they would have to end up paying, right?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, it's, I think it's, I think it's, you know, we, we've seen now two transfers of riders who. With big salaries. Right. Which is Remco and Ayuso, which leave their teams before the end of their contract.

[Spencer Martin]

Man.

[Johan Berniel]

If the amounts that I've been hearing are correct, that these new teams have been paying, it's a big risk. It's a huge investment.

[Spencer Martin]

What did you hear Red Bull paid for Remco?

[Johan Berniel]

I think I, I heard something like 7 million.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's what I heard too.

[Johan Berniel]

He only had one year left on the contract.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Plus what they're gonna have to pay.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it'd be there too much. It's too much.

[Spencer Martin]

Is it worth it to Red Bull just for the one day results? I didn't realize how bad they'd been in one day racing.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, if no one said Ramco's definitely. Listen, Remco's, you know, is definitely one of the top four or five guys in cycling. You know, there's not that many plus there's not that many available. So if, if one becomes available before the end of the contract, it's worth considering. But it's a huge investment. I mean if, if 7 million plus on top the salary, which is at least going to be 4 million if not more. Yeah, that's 11 million in year one. In year one and then it becomes 4 million or whatever it is in year two and year three.

[Spencer Martin]

I heard a theory too and I don't, I've not like cross referenced this, but it's an interesting theory. So Red bull, Red Bull's F1 team used to lose money, so that was a way for them to harvest like tax losses. Basically they put a cost cap into F1 so now the team makes money, like makes a lot of money so that they would be incentivized to lose as much money as possible on the cycling team. So they could then harvest tax losses that way. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Marketing expense, I don't know. But it could be, could be. It's. If those tax credits, basically, if those amounts are true. Personally, I think it's too much. It's exaggerated. It's not.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't really get the.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean it's like I. Listen, if it's true that they paid 7 million buyout class for Remco with only one year on the contract left, I can absolutely understand that. The new manager of Sudal said, hey, Christmas came early. You know, this is, this is amazing.

[Spencer Martin]

Thank you. And you don't have to spend. That's going to spend on his contract. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Millionaires net operations, Spencer.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. In one year for a team like that, it's huge.

[Johan Berniel]

50% of the budget.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. That's a title sponsor they got for 20, 26. Yeah, brand new title sponsor. The, the AISO thing is wild to me. That's a lot of money for one of you. So. And he's in Miami. He's in Miami wearing a Tyree Kill jersey. I don't know if I like that.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, listen, I mean that's, you know, listen, he's, he's entitled to his time off. Right? So listen, the guy's a pro. He's, he's, you know, whenever he has to start training and racing again, he's, he'll be ready. Now the question is, is, is, is it really worth.

[Spencer Martin]

I hate to follow this up. Was, will he be ready? Did we just see him not be ready at the vta?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's different. It's different.

[Spencer Martin]

Someone pointed out to me in my DMs, Matthew Riccatello got called up to that thing like two days before the start of the race and finished fifth overall.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it was a good course for him too.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. But yeah, the thing I was wondering about in terms of Iuso and like. Yeah, like, that's awesome. Go on vacation. I don't want a vacation. Shame. But is it kind of funny to you that Del Toro's still racing? Like, does he just love racing? Same thing with Pagacha. Like.

[Johan Berniel]

Are you so checked out already? As soon as the negotiation started for his contract, he checked out. I mean, it was clear he came to the Vuelta. He was unprepared. Listen, I mean, if you look at it now, afterwards, it's a miracle he won two stages because the guy was not ready.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, he kind of won him. When you have a guy that talented going up against stage hunters at the Vuelta.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, winning is difficult everywhere, especially at that level. I mean, even a top talent, you know, if you're not in shape, you don't win, man. I mean.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, but. But we're. We gotta wait this on. We gotta think it was a 10 million buyout clause for this guy. And he. He did check. He just said he checked out. So is that the type of writer you want to put that much money into? Someone that. Would Lance Armstrong check out? I don't think so.

[Johan Berniel]

Right. He was. I mean, he. You know, he's. If he's the leader on Little Trek, he's gonna be happy. It looks like he's been promised he's gonna be the leader. Because if I hear the comments of Matthias Chelmose, who was kind of, you know, you know, he was not too happy. I mean, he's. I mean, not too happy. I think he said, well, you know, if he. The team has been promising me for years that they would build around me for gc, and now a user comes if he has problems riding at the service of Bogachar. I have a hard time imagining he will ride at my service at some point. So, you know, he's not wrong. But also, on the other hand, I think that a team like Little Track, they can do with multiple leaders for stage races. You know, it's not like, okay, Skelmolz is definitely a great rider. One of the only riders who beat Pugach, by the way, this year.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, the three riders that beat Pugachar were Matthew van der Poel, Wout Van Aert, and Skelmosa and Schielmoser.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of. In terms of Grand Tours, you know, I mean, I think. I think right now Skelmosa is not in a position yet where he could demand from his team that the whole GC system is built only around him. I think he needs to make a few steps. You know, he's been already top five in. He was fifth in the Vuelta. I think he was white jersey, you know, other than that. I mean, he's won a few stage.

[Spencer Martin]

Races, then he win the Tour of Switzerland.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He won.

[Johan Berniel]

He's won a few stage races, but in terms of ground Tours, his best result is fifth in the Vuelta. I think. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Is the real friction with. Not. Is Scamosa, I think. Is that like a mirage? Is the real friction with Milan and Pedersen? Because that's a lot of mouths to feed. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, they're different riders. I think. I think Milan. I think Pedersen and Scal Mose get along really well.

[Spencer Martin]

But if Aiso rolls up to the Tour and you have Mateusz Skelmoza and Mads Pettersen demanding resources, is Juan Uso like, wait a second. I thought I was the leader here.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, listen, it's a luxury problem. It's better to have too many good writers than that. You know, It's.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's also a really good sign for Little Trek. You know, the work they've been doing in the last few years that really big riders actually want to go there. I mean, there's been a time that riders didn't want to go there, you know, because they had. They were a lot better options. Now they're one of the top three for super teams. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I think. Listen, and maybe we have to change our opinion. You know, maybe we have the wrong impression. I don't think so. But maybe we have the wrong impression of Ayuso and he's actually able to work for teammates too.

[Spencer Martin]

Maybe.

[Johan Berniel]

Maybe it's. Maybe I'm being very optimistic, I would say.

[Spencer Martin]

If you're not working for Bogachar, I don't know if anything's gonna. Jonathan Milan will just scare him so much. He will have to work. But Scuma is a. You. You reminded me of this. He gets fourth at World Championships, and then he has a hernia. A herniated disc in his back in Lombardy, you know?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And the team sends him the Tour of Long. Why would they do that?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't know.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't understand. I read that too. I don't understand. I don't know it. I was surprised to. I mean, there must be. I think. I don't know if there's some friction there between Scale Moser and the team. You know, he. He's been verbal about, you so coming to the team, which is, you know, one thing. And now he's been vocal also about him being in China and not understanding why he was there.

[Spencer Martin]

I think that's not exactly what I would want to do at the end of my season.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, no, nobody wants to go there. It's like a punishment race. So I don't understand. I don't know if it. Track doesn't need points at this moment in time if Skelmosa has this problem. You know, a 30 hour travel is not really the best thing to do if you have a herniated disc.

[Spencer Martin]

No, no.

[Johan Berniel]

He definitely shouldn't have. Should not have been there. By the way, he abandoned today, right? Or yesterday. He abandoned.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

So I don't know. Is it because the relationship between Skelmosa and little Frack is a bit deteriorated? I don't know. Maybe Scar Mose is looking for an out also in moving teams. I mean there's the obviously going to be candidate teams candidate to, to sign Skill Moser. I don't know, man. There's different scenarios possible. Who knows?

[Spencer Martin]

I would say things are probably bad if he's getting sent to that race with that problem.

[Johan Berniel]

That makes no sense. That, that absolutely makes no sense. Because track is absolutely in a position that they can allow themselves to not send one of their best riders, if not their best GC rider right now to that race. Who cares what they're going to do there? I mean, okay, China, I know, for example, I mean, I know from back in the days already when we were with track, Asia was super important, huge. You know, we were actually asked by Trek to sign some Asian writers. That's why I signed the Japanese writer and why I signed a Chinese writer back in the days.

[Spencer Martin]

That was a reminder.

[Johan Berniel]

So Trek might be, you know, they may have been pushing to have scaled Moza there because their market is huge in Asia. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's an interesting one. And then just the last bit to tie up here on the promotion. You mentioned points, promotion, relegation, standings. It looks like Unox is safe. They're going to make the world tour.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

The real fight now is between Total Energies and Cofitus for the last spot of the second division teams to get automatic invites to all the races, grand tours and one days in 2026. That's a one year thing. You have to earn your spot every year. It looks like Total Energies is behind by about 100, I don't know, 70 points. I'm just looking at it trying to do math in my head. They'll probably miss it. Cofitis will get the auto invite. What is the danger Johan of being down in the spot? Total Energy says because you'd imagine they'll get a wild card invite to the Tour de France and the other team would probably be Tetima Rockets. Unless the Tour went way out of left field and invited like Kahu, Rawl or Pulte visit Malta, probably not going to happen. What's the danger of falling out of that and being at the mercy of the wild cards? Because currently there's not. I guess I'm going to answer my own question here. Like the Vuelta rolls around. Total is probably not going right. Even though they sponsor the race because there's three wild card Spanish teams. I can't imagine they're going to take Total Energies instead of.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, the Vuelta is a difficult one Spencer because it's owned by ASO so French. On the other hand, I personally think that decisions have been made on a higher level. We all know that Total Energies has now become a big co sponsor of INEOS next year. In my opinion they're going to be in the name of. It's not allowed yet now because they already sponsor or title sponsor another team. But I think 2026 is just, you know, a fade out year for that team. Their Total Energies, they're done. You know they're stopping sponsorship.

[Spencer Martin]

If you're sponsoring another team, it's never a good sign.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

For the other team. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

They just. They just want to make good on their commitments for 2026 total energies but they don't really care because they're. They're in every big race anyway. You know, with, with their association to ineos.

[Spencer Martin]

So let's imagine they're gone. Like you're saying stuff starts to get really interesting because what are the wild card teams then if there's no Total Energies? Like is it wide open for someone to launch a team and get a wild card invite to the Tour is in the top 30 team.

[Johan Berniel]

You need to be in the wide 30 first. So you know it's not from. And that's not in one. In one season. You know you have to. It's going to take two years or three years at least because here would be the.

[Spencer Martin]

This would be the options if Toad Aisle wasn't around. Next year it'd be VF Group Bardiani Equipo Confirmed Pharma Burgos BH Team Pulte Visit Malta, Unabet, Tetzuma Rockets, Kahu Rawls and that's it. Those would be your wild card spots for the Tour. Two of those are getting into the Tour de France. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Well, I think it's probably going to be Titama because they're French team.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

Pretty smart and, and they're pretty good. I mean they're, they're, you know, they come from very, very small and they. In three years time, two years time, three years time, they've are actually two years out only, I think. Yeah. Pretty impressive. Impressive. Speaking of another, another piece of news actually. Speaking of ineos, don't know if you saw that, but they did confirm the renewing of the sponsorship with Pinarello for another three years.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting.

[Johan Berniel]

So Pinarello most likely is going to sponsor two teams next year. Ineos and Q3.6.5.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. I don't know where would they do that?

[Johan Berniel]

What's that?

[Spencer Martin]

Why would they do that? Like what's in it for Pinarello?

[Johan Berniel]

I mean. Yeah, I mean the, the, the owner or the one of the majority stakeholders in Pinarello owns Q 36.5 already. So that makes sense. And I guess it's the history with ineos. And you know, still, I think as a bike brand it is important to be linked with a super team, with a big team. Although you could say, well maybe Q 36.5 and Ineos, they're more or less at the same level now. Performance wise at least.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, yeah. Which team finished on the podium of a Grand Tour this year? One of those teams.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. No, but yeah, we've seen, I mean it happens, you know, that bike brands sponsor multiple teams. Specialized, for example. Multiple teams also.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Well, let's get to this super important question. This is from Patrick again, info WEDO team. This is. I'm only reading this because this has been bothering me for nearly two decades. So Patrick says. I only realize I realized years ago by looking at photos from Contador and Lance in 2009 when they both raced for Astana, that Lance had a slightly different design jersey in that year than anybody else in the team. And I don't mean the additional world championship stripes in the sleeves. If you look closely at the upper sleeve shoulder design of his jersey, you'll notice the design pattern was different on his jersey from the other team members. Can Johan explain this? To illustrate, I sent a nice picture of Johan, Alberto and Lance. Can we see the picture?

[Johan Berniel]

Let me see the picture.

[Spencer Martin]

And Johan looks dashing in this picture. We've got to get this.

[Johan Berniel]

Where's the picture?

[Spencer Martin]

Look at that.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, there it is. Huh?

[Spencer Martin]

And you'll actually notice Lance's sleeve is quite a bit different. And I always wondered about this.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, let me think. That's actually at the start of the Tour de France, we did have different models jerseys. I know that there was different fabrics with a different model, but if I'm not mistaken, in that Tour, which I actually had an argument with Alberto Contador about that, I don't know if this jersey is the case, but I do know that as soon as Contador took yellow, he had his own jerseys made.

[Spencer Martin]

I remember this.

[Johan Berniel]

So the brand of the jerseys was Bontrager. Bontrager was the clothing sponsor, but they had them made at Giordano. And Contador, at some point, he, you know, I saw him at. I mean, he was in the bus, he had taken yellow, and he had a different fabric jersey than. Than the team jersey or than the jersey that was provided by the Tour. And yet the yellow jersey, and he had stuff made by Nalini without informing me. So it's the first time I've seen this picture. I have not noticed this. But, yeah, you're right. I don't know that. I do know that this jersey of Lance is definitely an official jersey, because I see it because of the placement of the logos on the shoulders. And if you look on this jersey, I think it's a different fabric. One may be a normal jersey, another might be a super summer jersey. I don't know. Actually, I'm going to say. I'm going to say. I'm going to say that probably both are team jerseys. Just a different paneling because of a different fabric. That would be my first guess. But I do know that as soon as Contador took yellow, he had his own jerseys made, like, behind my back.

[Spencer Martin]

That tells you everything you need to know about that situation. That's pretty wild to have your own jerseys made. But look how loose those jerseys are, Johan.

[Johan Berniel]

That's shocked. It's crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

It's crazy. It's crazy. Like, that is slowing you down quite a bit. This is. I'm hesitant to even admit. Admit this, but my first ever bike race that I did, I bought an Astana full kit, and I did it in an Astana kit.

[Johan Berniel]

You raced in an Astana kit? Voluntary?

[Spencer Martin]

It was like $35 total. It was one of these Chinese websites, and they're so bad. But, yeah, there is probably a photo out there circulating of me racing in Astanakit.

[Johan Berniel]

We'll find that jersey. We're publishing that in the Next podcast.

[Spencer Martin]

And I thought, I didn't realize that I was like, oh, man, like Astana, that's the cool team. Now, I didn't know.

[Johan Berniel]

So that must have been 2008 or 2009 or something.

[Spencer Martin]

I think it was, yeah, probably early 2009. Like very early. Like, wow, that took me back and then that. But yeah, I thought that was a really interesting question because that's always bothered me that they had the different jerseys. And so here's a question from Len.

[Johan Berniel]

There's another story, Spencer, I don't know if you know that story. There's been very special jerseys one time in the Giro of 2009. Do you know that story?

[Spencer Martin]

So, wait, yeah, there was a lot of weird stuff with Giro.

[Johan Berniel]

We had issues with Astana paying. Yeah, the paying agent, which was a company that I was managing. And so I couldn't pay the salaries to riders and staff because Astana didn't pay the way it was signed in the contract. And so we. To put pressure on Astana, there was one company which had paid a little small company, and then track had paid because they were sponsor. So we make jerseys for the Giro. So we gave the order to Jordana to make jerseys, the same, exactly the same jerseys, but the logos of the sponsors who hadn't paid, which were a bunch of Kazakh sponsors. I don't even know why they were on there. Back in the days, it was basically the minister of sports who made a Phone call to 10 companies in Kazakhstan and says, okay, I need this amount of money. You, you, you, you're volunteering to sponsor my team. Boom, done. So, and so these companies hadn't paid, so we, we made a jersey. And you know, from close by you could see like a, a logo, like a half transparent logo on the jersey. But on pictures and on TV you could not see the logo.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I remember.

[Johan Berniel]

So we didn't break the rules because the logos were on the jersey, but they were just not extremely visible. And it helped because two weeks later they paid, they paid all the, all the salaries. That was a rough time, let me tell you.

[Spencer Martin]

And that was when, like, Vino was coming back, right?

[Johan Berniel]

Exactly.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I want to watch that documentary. Moonlight Graham asks a very easy question. Great name, by the way. Do you watch, do you two watch Cyclocross? I enjoy it as it comes on early in US time, so nice weekend viewing with morning coffee. I actually do watch quite a bit of cyclocross. Same reason, because it's on in the morning in the US and my son, 5 years old, is obsessed with cyclocross. So we're watching all the, all the races that are on.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I watch. I watch cyclocross. I mean, I haven't watched it yet this year.

[Spencer Martin]

This is a little early. A little early to be dipping into the cross.

[Johan Berniel]

There's been some. There's been some crosses, but obviously, you know, I think everybody's gonna watch when, you know, when Vanderpool or Von Aert shows up. I don't know if they're going. They're going to. I think. I think for sure they will be. They will be doing a few. Although I suspect it to be less and less. But yeah, yeah, I, I watch cyclocross, but, you know, then it's, you know, when there's no more other races and.

[Spencer Martin]

I start watching cyclocross, it's hard in the, In Europe, and I'm in Europe and there's not a non. There's a non target race on. It's in the middle of the day when you're doing things versus in the U.S. it's easier when it's in the morning. And then Larry, this is right. Right on the topic we're talking about, he said was, when choosing a member of a team for a Grand Tour, how do you balance a writer's numbers, like power numbers, with how well their personality benefits and affects the team's chemistry?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, you know, when, when I was at the SNLT manager, we didn't have those data yet, the power numbers. You know, it was private. We kind of had an idea, but, you know, it was not common that you would say, hey, you know, send me your power files. That was just not the case back then. But personality was. Was very important for me. Very important. You know, I made a few mistakes with, with certain people, especially with Americans. But there's. There's this. There's this documentary right where I say. Where I say something like, yeah, another young American weirdo or something like that.

[Spencer Martin]

I think it was like your first. It's your first thing you say in the documentary. It's a very good documentary called Lance, I think on. It's on Netflix. And your, Your introduction, you're like, there's no weirder people than American professional cyclists.

[Johan Berniel]

Or something like, I mean, listen, there's been a lot of American professional cyclists who are really weirdos, like, extremely weird. But, you know, back in the days, we had that policy that, you know, we, at least every year we were, you know, we made the commitment to USA Cycling that we would take two young American cyclists from that program. So, you know, there's been a few. Yeah, strange ones, but. No, but personality is super important. Especially, you know, like back in the days when we were, you know, on a roll and building a team focused on the Tour de France. You know, whoever was considered to be in on the long list of the Tour needed to fit into the philosophy of the team. Like, okay, this is our focus. This is, you know, the. The way the team works. And, you know, we. We have one leader and yeah, there's been a few who came into that long list. And then, you know, they did the Tour once or twice and then they left because they had personal ambitions and they went on to be leaders or co leaders of other teams. But that's, That's. That's logical, I think. But I would say personality is back then at least, because we had a more reduced program. Like now you can say, okay, you know, this personality doesn't fit with this guy. We have enough races, enough riders. We can basically give them programs that they see them. They see each other once in the year in a training camp, and then they don't see each other anymore for the rest of the year because they're just racing all over the world and they never race together. Back then, that was more difficult because we didn't have such a big roster.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you should probably try to get along with the co workers. Would be my. No matter how good you think you are. Yeah, just try to mesh with everybody would be. Would be my advice. All right, Johan, we'll let you go. We'll be back next week for same. Same time, same place, similar format. Maybe we'll have a little bit more clarity on a few of the things that we talked about today. But thanks for joining us.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, thanks, Spencer. Speak soon.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, bye.

[Johan Berniel]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Spencer Martin]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I dig the mattress, and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you.

[Spencer Martin]

Teach me. So, Dana.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, no, I'm not really prepared.

[Spencer Martin]

I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them.

[Johan Berniel]

It's designed to be the most powerful.

[Spencer Martin]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow, impressive. Let me try.

[Spencer Martin]

T mobile is the best place to.

[Johan Berniel]

Get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Spencer Martin]

Nice. Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Johan Berniel]

T mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for launch?

[Spencer Martin]

Dude, my work here is done. The 24 month bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers + tax and 35 device connection charge credit send and balance due to payoff earlier Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 and.

[Johan Berniel]

New line minimum 100 plus a month.

[Spencer Martin]

Plan without a pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based.

[Johan Berniel]

On analysis by Ooklove Speed Test Intelligence.

[Spencer Martin]

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