Loading summary
Transcript201 lines
- [00:00]
A
And you see Lenny Martinez high fiving this guy while Jonas is trying to drop him. So that says to me that Lenny was pretty confident and quite comfortable and knew that he was not going to get dropped. So anyways, you know, Jonas didn't need to drop him. Let's start with that. Right, but if he would have been able to drop him, he would have done it.
- [00:28]
B
Everybody, welcome back to the Move. I'm Spencer Martin, I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are breaking down the final two stages. The final weekend of Paris Nice and Toreno Adriatico are two twin stage races. Week long stage races happening before the classics get serious with Milan Sanremo coming up this Saturday. Johan, I'll just quickly run through what happened on the final weekend, who won and then I'll let you pick which race you want to talk about first. But at Paris Nice, the the race from Paris, Denise and France. Jonas Vagard won the overall, no surprise, wins by 4 minutes 23 seconds over Danny Martinez who impressively salvaged that second place. We'll talk about that after crashing. And Jorg Steinhauser from ef, the young German, I believe Jan Ulrich's nephew. Six minutes back and the final stage was won by Lenny Martinez. The young French rider impressively followed Vinegard on the tough final stage in Denise and outspented out sprunt him out sprinted him for the win after following the attack. Stage seven was shortened. It was supposed to be a mountain stage I believe it ended up being a 47 kilometer sprint stage up the valley from Nice to the town of Isla which is not the ski resort of Isa 2000 won by Dorian Godan from Ineos. Kind of a weird stage. The riders weren't happy about it. Nobody seemed happy, but I would say kind of picturesque because they finished in a snowy alpine looking town. It actually played pretty well on camera. It looked cold, looked miserable for the riders. At Toreno it was won by Isaac del Toro from uae, his second World Tour stage win of stage race of the year so far. Mateo Jorgensen moved into second place on the final stage after stealing a three second time bonus at an intermediate sprint. Julio Julio Pelizari, the young Italian on Red Bull gets third at 42 seconds back. Tobias Yan Holland Johansson, probably the most impressive non podium finish of the year so far. 1 minute 14 seconds back. And then pre primus raglic in fifth. Probably not what he hoped for. But Primo's still out there keeping us, keeping us entertained, keeping us laughing. We can't criticize him too much. And the final stage Del Toro won stage six. Tough, tough summit finish. Stage seven was won by Jonathan Milan. A sprint stage. I'm not quite sure why Toreno does a processional sprint stage on a seven day race at the end. But Matthew Vanderbilt kept it interesting by doing what was almost a 30 kilometer pole up the. It was the one tough climb of the day. He kind of ripped the group up and then he just kept going and kept pulling and dropped his own teammate, Jasper Phillips. And it came back together though. Looked like he was just getting a workout in for Milan San Remo. But Johan, which race do you want to talk about first?
- [03:11]
A
Let's talk about the most interesting one. Spencer Tyo. Although you know we knew that Del Toro was the big favorite before, before the stage race but you know there was a few times change of leadership, the leader's jersey and I think we, we. It was also a very strong field. I think you know, if you, if you take away and Jonas and Remco I think everybody else was more or less there in Tirreno and so I liked, I liked what I saw. The course was, was good. There was not a real mountain stage but there was a lot of stages which were, which had the elevation of a mountain stage. I think there was two stages of more than 4,000 meters but not a real mountaintop finish. Like, like a long climb which, which always makes it interesting because it's, it's. It becomes tactical. The strongest rider still wins, but it's much more entertaining. So I liked it. I like the fact that Pelizari was in really good shape. Local rider. I think the second last stage was in his hometown actually where he's born and he went for it full gasp. Took the leader's jersey off Del Toro the day before. Right with that. We commented on that already in our former podcast. So we didn't really know until, until their Toro on, on stage seven really. I mean stage six already. But it was. What was it was it. I don't remember how much how many seconds it was but anyways the last, the second last stage Del Toro was quite dominant, won the stage. You know, I think the, the attractiveness of Tyreno compared to Parinis that the gaps were so small and that you actually never knew who was going to win. We already knew after stage what was it Stage three or four in Paris that the race was over when Jonas took the leader's jersey with two plus minutes and then you know, basically extended that lead. So I like Tireno and yeah we saw some interesting, interesting Racing for the GC for stage wins. You know, we saw sprints. We didn't comment the other day on the victory of Anders. What was it?
- [05:33]
B
Yeah. Tobias Lund
- [05:38]
A
was formerly in. If I'm not mistaken, was he not in dsm?
- [05:42]
B
He was. I thought he was in dsm.
- [05:45]
A
What was it called? Picnic Post analysis. Sorry.
- [05:48]
B
Yes. I think that's a reflection of how much winning Picnic Postanel has been doing that. We can't remember the name. It's also his second World Tour win of the year. Right after he.
- [06:00]
A
He won a stage in Down Under.
- [06:02]
B
Third. Third World Tour win. Cadell Evans. Great Ocean Road race as well.
- [06:05]
A
Yeah.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [06:07]
A
So. So that was interesting. And then, yeah, Milan winning the last stage as usual. Third year in a row to win that stage. You said a procession. It was not a procession this year, Spencer. Matthew Vanderp made sure that it was not a walk in the. Was not a walk in the park. He had other ideas. Wanted to really super intense workout. Put the hurt on the peloton. Yeah, I have. I have information from within the peloton that his condition is. Is scary. Really scary like never seen before.
- [06:45]
B
I'm not sure I've ever seen a poll quite like that. He didn't, he didn't attack. He just got to the front and he said, I gotta work out. Hey guys, I know you're racing. I've got to get a workout in here. And he just shredded the field. It was pretty impress. I going to need it though to. To stay with Pagacha. You know, this isn't like. He's not being flamboyant or showing off like he. He's going to need every bit of that speed to stay with Pagachar next weekend.
- [07:13]
A
We will talk about it in. In a couple of days, Spencer. But I will predict already now that Voel will stay with Pogachar. He won't be able to drop him.
- [07:23]
B
I almost don't want to say too much, but I don't totally disagree with you. We will talk about that. That though in our preview to Monro. And were. Were you surprised that I. I loved it. But M. Jorgensen kind of stealing. Not stealing. He earned it. But I thought that sprint, it wasn't even really close with W. Benart leading him out. And then I don't quite know what Primos was doing, but he, he was sprinting for it. They kind of. He lost Pilari and those guys didn't really stand a chance in that intermediate sprint or second place.
- [07:53]
A
Yeah, I mean it was to be expected. You know, I mean, second is better than third. They're both on the podium, but I think it was fair and square. Walt Van Aert leading out Jorgensen. You know, Van Aert also. I've seen him coming to. I mean, he's improved his condition. You know, he hasn't raced that much. You know, started in Grand Prix and then had the puncture. He was sick before. He came in really good shape, I think, you know, didn't get the results. But from what I saw, his condition is increcendo. It's growing, and I expect him to be ready for the classics. But yeah, to. To come back on that sprint, Spencer, I think, you know, Belizari expected that it's only normal that Jorgensen would sprint for it. I'm surprised that Jurgensen took those bonus seconds, by the way, because he's not slow.
- [08:47]
B
I know he's probably punchier than. Than Jorgensen.
- [08:50]
A
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. So I don't. I don't know if he was, you know, surprised or caught out, but it was a really good lead out from Art. And yeah, we saw that Mateo Jorgensen is in really, really good condition. He was the only one who could stay with, with Del Toro when it really mattered several times. You know, we can only ask ourselves the question, you know, what would have happened if he didn't have that crash on that gravel stage? I think the result would still have been the same. The gap would be. Would have been smaller and it would have been more suspense because, you know, he was able to follow Del Toro. And then on top of the clamps two times, he was able to pass and take a really nice pull, putting del Toro on the limit. But Del Toro is just punchier in those final two, 300 meters of an uphill finish. So, yeah, I mean, what a rider, right? I mean, he. He delivers, he gets his chance, he gets the responsibility of the team.
- [09:52]
B
It's.
- [09:53]
A
It's a big responsibility to be, you know, to have to deliver. In Tour of UAE and in Tyno, and two times he does it. I think it says a lot about the qualities of Ital del Toro as a rider.
- [10:06]
B
And we should say in uae, they had some misfortune. Kevin Vermarca crashed, but they. They were thin at times. The end of stage five, end of stage six, both those stages, uphill finishes. Del Toro was had no teammates, did not panic, handled it well. I saw some criticism from other podcasts that shall go remain nameless of like, why weren't these guys attacking him? But you saw on Stage five, whenever Del Toro put his foot on the gas, they were, they were done right? So, so they, they couldn't, it was too hard. Like they were just hanging on for dear life.
- [10:37]
A
Those questions of why are they not attacking? You know, I don't know which podcast as you refer to, but I can tell you, you know, if they're not attacking, it's because they're on the limit. It's very simple. You know, tactics are not that complicated, guys. People tend to over complicate it, you know, like isolate him and attack him. Well, first of all, if you want to isolate the second or third best rider in the world, it's gonna mean that you're isolating yourself.
- [11:03]
B
Isolating yourself. Yes.
- [11:04]
A
You know, and so then what are you gonna do?
- [11:06]
B
Attack.
- [11:07]
A
If by the way, if you attack with your second rider, that rider is already back in GC anyway, so doesn't really matter. And Del Toro played this perfectly. You know, he, even when, even when Pelizari attacked on second last stage, he gave him some room, you know, knew exactly until where he could let him go. Something tells me that, I mean, you know, going off, his reaction in his post race interview, like he kind of felt like he wanted to give the stage to Pizzari and I thought for
- [11:40]
B
sure he was trying to gift it. You could tell he was doing everything he could to not catch him. He even sat back and Unox came to the front to pull.
- [11:49]
A
Exactly.
- [11:50]
B
And you see him after the stage, he was like, call me. He like gave him a call.
- [11:53]
A
They're, they're good friends. That's his hometown. You know, he, I think he would have wanted Pizzari to win the stage. But you know, then when Jurgensen and Johanneson are there, then you know, of course he's going to try to win himself. But, but I had that impression and you know, the, the, the interview afterwards said, you know, I have mixed feelings, you know, hinting that, you know, he, he, he kind of felt bad to beat his friend in his hometown. But it's sport, you know, it's. And, and I think, yeah, I mean I really like Del Toro, man. He's very likable, you know, has, you know, is, is an attractive rider. You know, he, yeah, his way, his style is, is super nice. His way of racing. He look a strong face ahead, you know, like looks like a champion, you know, has, has, has that aura around him that I think cycling needs more of certain riders.
- [12:53]
B
It kind of sounds funny we're sitting around talking about how a young man like looks on a Bike. But he also, he like, looks like an ath. He moves like an athletic person, which to me, and I couldn't tell you why, always helps my enjoyment of a rider. There's been riders who've won a lot in the past that have not looked athletic on the bike, and I probably don't enjoy them as much as I should because of that. You should like on stage five, I don't even noticed he was back like this. The race was kind of on and he's back going to the bathroom at the back of the peloton. You know, someone's like, oh, Roglich attacks. He's in trouble. It's like Del Toro's not worried about Primos Roglic attacking. He can pull that back no problem. We saw a man completely in control of this race. Even though the gaps were numerically small, I don't think he was ever really concerned. We also saw just something I want to point out on stage six that I thought was really weird and really interesting. Ua did not really have to hit the front until like the last 40k because two door pro cycling was at the front doing the hard yards. Early in the race of the pace setting, they had Michael Storr in 15th place. They, I guess had to protect that. What was going on there, Johan, and
- [14:04]
A
this, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I didn't understand that either. Maybe they thought that Stir could win the stage because it was all a Philippe, right. Who was doing all the hard work when it was so. I don't know. It shows that is a strong rider. But for him to win the stage, a lot of. A lot would have had to happen. I mean, I keep saying Spencer and I know you think the same thing, man, Michael Sturer do something about your position. You know, he's like the least aerodynamic rider in the helicopter. And you know, it's probably the way. I mean, I. Okay, it's easy to say that's probably the way he feels best on the bike, but man, he needs to look into that. Man, it's like he. It looks like he has this really wide handlebars which. Okay, Mathieu van der Poel has wide handlebars, as I told you the other day, 42 cm center to center, which is very, you know, un. You know, unlike today's peloton. But yeah, Michael Stir is like the, the. The summum of the. The least aerodynamic rider, strong rider. So I guess that was their goal, to try to win the stage with stutter. Because other than that, I can't really See what the, the thinking was behind
- [15:23]
B
that strategy because UAE, it was in UAE's benefit to let the break win because the time bonuses don't help them. They're nothing but trouble. So I guess it does show you though, in modern cycling, no matter how hurt your team is, how bad your team is, if you're leading the race, there's often, if not always, a team willing to come forward and help you. We've seen it time and time again and you almost don't have to worry about it anymore because someone will come forward to defend their 15th place at Torino.
- [15:54]
A
Yeah, listen, I mean, in the case of. You just, you just mentioned, you know, if Primo's roglic attacks and, and, and Del Toro is isolated, guess who's going to pull.
- [16:07]
B
UNO is going to pull to protect
- [16:10]
A
Jurgensen's back then third place, you know, podium. It's. It's very simple. So it's true he was sometimes isolated, but never, never really felt like he was in trouble, in my opinion. Whatever happened, Spencer, you know, like most of the guys, like, if, if there's, if, when, when del Toro gets isolated, there's normally going to be what, 10, 15 riders maybe at the maximum, right? Then he only needs to look at two or three riders. Everybody else, they may attack, but they can only attack on the flats. And they're going to get reeled in on the climbs anyways because there's a reason why they're in 15th position
- [16:53]
B
because
- [16:53]
A
they were not able to follow on the other, on the other climbs. So. Yeah, don't over complicate it, guys. It's. It's quite simple.
- [17:01]
B
Well, what's his name? Richard Carapaz. He was, I don't know if he was trying. He should get the.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah, well, I, I want to talk about that. What was that when Valgren, like, I mean, amazing victory, right? Amazing, Amazing. Stage. Stage win. We already talked about this.
- [17:18]
B
Is back on stage five.
- [17:20]
A
He comes back from very far. But what was Carapas doing? He was so. He attacked when his teammate was in front and, you know, the gap was not that big.
- [17:31]
B
No.
- [17:31]
A
Then he launches Del Toro. Well, I mean, did you see how Del Toro passed him? I mean, like, I got like flashbacks from, you know, there's certain memes on the, on the social media, like, you know, in Spanish, so, you know, it was funny. Like Del Toro just flies by him and, you know, there was, you know, in Spanish, like a reference to the Giro of last year. I don't know, man. I saw a comment of Mati Brashel who's the DS of EF at that race, and he was extremely unhappy with that maneuver. You know, it's not like that attack was. The purpose was not to destabilize the organization behind Valgrin. And they came really close at the end. Yeah, I have to say, Spencer, you know, and as you know, I. I don't really care too much. Sometimes I say what I want,
- [18:30]
B
and
- [18:30]
A
this is going to make me unpopular in Latin America, certainly in Ecuador. But, man, Carapas, I don't know, man. I saw an interview of him. You know, they do these interviews where they ask, you know, who's the best classics writer, who's the best GC rider, you know, who's your favorite domestique, blah, blah, blah, you know, and then they say, who's the best climber? And he said, richard Karapas. I said, come on, man. Dude, that's like, okay, no, you know, like, no, you're not the best climber. You know, he's a great rider, but he's not the best climber. So it. That was kind of. I don't know. I didn't really. I didn't really like that too much. So I've. I'm not a fan, man. I'm not a fan of Kapas.
- [19:10]
B
I thought it was a really strange move because he. Yeah, he almost cost Valgrind that stage win. I didn't see it discussed that much. He's trying again on stage six in. In Carapaz's defense, because we have to defend him because there's no. There's no group more vicious than Carapaz fans. But he. He will look so helplessly out of shape, where you're like, what are you doing, man? What are you doing? And then he comes around, like, sometimes this works out in his favor, and he kind of has his process.
- [19:41]
A
He's not in bad shape, Spencer. He's just not in great shape right now, which is totally understandable. So, you know, he's. And I think it's just in his DNA to attack, attack, attack. He's just. He's a fighter, right? So he constantly keeps attacking. That's what he did on that stage. But, you know, almost at the expense of the stage win of his. His teammate. And then also, you know, I saw after the stage, you know, Valgrind was there, and then Ben Healy went straight away to congratulate him. And it took a while before he went up to Valgrind to congratulate first. He took care of himself, you know, like, towel, you know, drinks, whatever, ketones, whatever. He Took. And it took. I mean, there was already other teammates that came in who were behind him, who were all, all over Valgrind. And then finally Karapaz went to congratulate him. So anyway, Matty Brushell was not happy. So that's that for me to take away that. That was not the right move from Carapas on that stage.
- [20:45]
B
It was crazy watching del Toro go past him and think that they were equals at the Giro last year, that these were the guys that were locked on an hour long climb.
- [20:55]
A
The thing is, Spencer, you know, we, we know that Carapas takes a little bit longer to get into shape whenever he goes for an objective. He's ready.
- [21:04]
B
Yeah.
- [21:04]
A
I don't know what his program is, if he's going to do the Giro again, if I would be him. I mean. Yeah, I mean, Vingegaard is racing now, so I don't know, maybe he has to focus on the Vuelta, I don't know,
- [21:17]
B
on his schedule. And I.
- [21:19]
A
Okay, well, he's going to be ready for the Giro. Yeah, he's going to be ready. He's not, he's not.
- [21:22]
B
Like you were saying with Vanderpol, he just shows up to win. That's kind of the trend now, Carapace, doesn't he? He's more of an old school guy. He.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [21:33]
B
I did see it, Some criticism of. Not criticism of del Toro, but like, what do we take out of this win? Will he podium at the Tour de France? Was the question posed to somebody and the person was like, well, there was no big alpine climbs at Traino, so we don't know, like, whoa, whoa. We just saw him win UAE Tour, which is nothing but big climbs and he just got second at the Giro last year. I'm feeling pretty good about del Toro as a GC rider coming out of this.
- [21:56]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, he's, he's, he's one of the next, the next guys to, to, to take a big Tour in the Tour de France, as I said, you know, I mean, I think it's going to be difficult for him to podium because he's going to be the last guy with, I mean, normally without any, you know, unforeseen situations and problems, he should be the last guy with, with Bogachar. So it depends. But, but yeah, I don't think del Toro should focus on the podium. He should focus on being as best possible in the Tour and use that as a learning step to develop as a cyclist. But yeah, this guy will definitely win a ground Tour in the future.
- [22:42]
B
Yeah, could be I guess it won't be this year, maybe. I guess the year. I still can't believe he lost that Giro. I've got to get over it, but I still cannot believe that you don't want to throw those away. But he will win a Grand Tour at some point. I think that's a safe.
- [22:57]
A
Well, I mean, we say that. We say that, right? I mean, he has it in it in him, you know, because how many times have we seen a rider, you know, coming to the forefront, especially, like in the Tour de France in the past. Right. You know, okay. Shows up, you know, wins the Tour at a young age. Oh, you know, he's gone for five or six in, you know, in a row. Never wins it again. It has happened.
- [23:18]
B
I know.
- [23:19]
A
Yeah.
- [23:20]
B
It does happen. More than you think, actually. He. He's good, though. Del Toro's good. That's my takeaway from here. I wouldn't be shocked if he podiums the Tour. I wouldn't be shocked if he has the room to focus on that because Pigatra is so far ahead. We'll talk about Paris in the back half of the show, but I think Pagachar is probably going to cruise to the Tour win. Del Toro probably will have the room to chase the podium. I'm curious to see if he can do it. What did you think of. So Matteo Jorgensen does not win Perry Knees for a third time. He's one of the last two times. He's at the wrong race. Slight issue. Not at the start. He gets second at Toreno. I'm going to come out really hot take. I would. I actually thought this was his best race of those three. I was super impressed with Matteo Jorgensen at this race.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah, I think. I think. Yeah, for sure. I think when last year he won, Jonas crashed out. He was strong. And then the year before, did he win against Remco the year before?
- [24:22]
B
He did.
- [24:22]
A
I think so.
- [24:23]
B
He did, yeah. Worked him over.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, I think. I think Jorgensen right now, I mean, I don't know if we. If we would ask him, he would probably confirm that. I think right now he is on a higher level now than when he won Balinese last year and the year before. I. I think it's safe to say he was. He was really, really good in Tirino. Really good.
- [24:48]
B
And he really just has that. He probably is going to lose to Del Toro no matter what happens. But if he doesn't fall, it's closer on stage two on the slippery gravel corner. And then to recover and get Second after he was there really doing teamwork. He did a big load of teamwork for Van Art too. So it wasn't just chasing gc. Yeah, I agree that it's maybe the strongest I've ever seen him. I also we shouldn't mention. You remind me with the Remco mentioned. Del Toro's now won more major seven like there's seven major one week stage races. Del Toro has more wins in them than Evanopol does in his career. So it is a.
- [25:25]
A
That's what he. How many did he win? One.
- [25:27]
B
Just one? Yeah.
- [25:30]
A
Didn't win a single one. That's what I keep saying. I mean we'll see now in Catalonia, right? I mean he's. He's going to show up in Catalonia after a month altitude training camp. I expect Remco to be really, really good. Delto is not going to be there if I'm not mistaken. Jonas will be there. We'll see if I use was there probably was not on his schedule, but maybe he changed. I don't know. But we'll see. But yeah, it's time for Remco to win one of those and several. He should win several of those races. He has it in him. So now is maybe the time. You know, he's usually very, very good when he comes to a race of three weeks or a month altitude training camp. That's usually when he's at his best.
- [26:18]
B
I mean the. It's an undeniable trend that when the top Grand Tour winners show up to these races they normally win them at will like y just did at par. So slightly it's a slight concern if you are not winning them like Del Toro passed a test by winning this. Like I now feel better about him as a GC contender. Even if you. You might not think that they're one one versus one comparisons these one week. These major one week races really are predictive of success in grand Tours.
- [26:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:47]
B
What did you think? So Matthew Vanderpol took a real long poll yesterday, dropped everybody include including his teammate Jasper Phillipson. I think we both agree he's just training for Sanremo. This was a race pace effort. He was getting on a climb that's like the chapressa. Chris Horner was not too happy about it on his, on his pot his like post race debrief. What do you have a defense of Vanderpoel for this? I personally do. I just want to hear your take on it.
- [27:16]
A
I mean the, the defense is very simple. Spencer Vanderpool is first of all he's the leader of the team, the undisputed leader of the team. They are there to, I mean they won two stages already with Van der Poel. Jasper didn't have his best sprint on sprint one when Lund won and he his I mean this is definitely something that Van der Poel has said in the briefing, you know like okay guys listen I need to do a, like a really intense workout today. This is what I'm gonna do. Are you guys okay with it? Everybody will have approved it, the director, the trainer, even Philipson and it's up to Philipson to stay in the bunch and when it comes and it was very likely to get back together to, to, to sprint for it then you know, unfortunately he couldn't prove it because he crashed. You know like what, what Chris Horner's criticism be have been the same if Phillipson doesn't crash and wins the stage.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [28:17]
A
You know so let's, I mean my take on it is that winning the last stage was not the main objective for Alpus in Premier Tech and not for Vanderpool and also not for Philipson because let's not forget Philipson won Milan San Remo two years ago and he was here to prepare for it just in case it comes back together which it's always possible. So I think Philipson is in good shape. Hopefully he didn't hurt himself too much in that crash but he looked in certain stages he looked really strong. Philipson is one of those sprinters who can, who can get over those climbs and maybe it was also part of Philipson's plan to really hurt himself in the last stage to do a last general repetition for Milan San Remo. I mean I can find out but that's probably my takeaway from it. So whatever Van der Poel did it was agreed upon by everybody. This is not just something that comes up during the stage and said oh by the way, you know I just feel like I need to do a little effort. I'm not going to say anything to anybody. I'm just going to go apeshit in front of the peloton to drop everybody. That's not the way it works. You know he, everybody was aware of what Van der Pool his plan was.
- [29:36]
B
Yeah and you know the, you know the guys that run that team like you're not, there's no freelancing like it's, it's been discussed in the pre race brief. They, I mean I was just gonna say the same thing. You know who needs to practice really fast climbing and then chasing on in a group is Jasper Phillipson because he's gonna have to do it at Sanremo. Also, when Vanderpoel's doing that, it's hurting. Philipson's an amazing climber for a sprinter. It's hurting every other sprinter more than, more than Philipson. So then it's benefiting him for the final sprint. We don't know if he would have won or not. Maybe he wins and it looks like a genius plan. But I, I didn't hate it. I kind of liked it, actually. I think more sprint teams should think about that. Like if, sure, our sprinter's getting dropped, but he's hurting less than the others because you roll to the line and Milan's probably going to beat you.
- [30:21]
A
Yeah. Spencer. The, the, the, the, the. The. The main goal of Alpacin Premier Tech was not to win the last stage. It was to get that workout in and to make sure that, you know, both, both Vanderpool and Philipson knew that they went away with the assurance that they're ready for Milan San Remo. And I think they both are.
- [30:41]
B
They both look pretty good. I mean, I know Phillipson got Dr. Got dropped, but he looked good for a long time in that climb. Anything else on Toreno before we go to Paranese?
- [30:50]
A
I think we covered everything basically.
- [30:52]
B
All right, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back for pairing these, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Hollow Socks. As I get ready for my next trip to Europe to cover some bike races, one thing I'm going to be wearing, I'm going to be making sure I'm wearing is holo socks. They keep my legs from feeling heavy upon arrival, keep the swelling down, and as a result are a complete game changer. I'm heading out for rides and runs straight off the plane and feeling great, which is something I never did before. Hollow socks. Hollow socks are the first compression sock that does not force you to choose between comfort and functionality and as a result are the only compression socks I've ever been able to wear for an entire travel day without ripping them off in disgust upon arrival. They use ultra soft baby alpaca fiber compression socks. This comfortable, I'm going to say it, they're not fair. They should be banned by water. They're that big of an advantage. They're also made in the USA, trusted by doctors, and over 2 million pairs have already been sold. So no matter what your day looks like, traveling, training, or just recovering around the house, there's a holo sock for it for a limited time. Hollow Socks is having a buy to get to free sale. Head to HollowSocks.com today to check it out. That's HollowSocks.com for up to 50 off your order. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Make sure you say us so that we can get credit for it and support the show. All right, thank you and let's get back into it. Okay, Johan, we're back. Jonas Vinegard wins Paris. Nice. No surprise. What is a surprise is I think Lenny Martinez winning that final stage. I don't know how much a stage seven. You. You saw the Saturday stage. I kind of liked it.
- [32:20]
A
It's like a mini one that go down one.
- [32:23]
B
That go down one.
- [32:24]
A
Yeah, I just saw the last 10k. Yeah, I saw that. There was unhappiness from the writers, even from Jonas Wingergaard who. Who said that, you know, they, they should have started on a different place because apparently there were. There were a lot of crashes, not just in the final, but before also. I think there was three main crashes.
- [32:45]
B
Yeah.
- [32:45]
A
In 47 kilometer route. So it's not fun to race like this. You know, they were all wrapped up, you know, lots of clothing. If you look, Godo was printing in his rain jacket. He's the span. He's the French champion. I know.
- [33:00]
B
You don't even see his jersey.
- [33:02]
A
If you know that you're gonna have a chance, you want to go for it in your French champions jersey. He didn't even bother to take it off that it was that cold, that wet. But anyways, that nice victory. I mean, great. Listen, I think Ineos did a great race. You know, they. They won what, two stages? No, the team time trial and Godot stage seven.
- [33:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. Two stage men's at Perry. Nice. Fourth place overall, I believe. Nothing to sneeze at. Yeah, yeah. And they're. And Oscar Onley crashed out like one of their best place riders. So still salvage a lot. Is that one of their best? I was thinking about this. Is this one of their best transfers in recent years, at least from a production standpoint point. I kind of forgot that he changed teams.
- [33:53]
A
The guy is strong. The guy is strong and it looks like, you know, he was already strong on decathlon. You know, he won a lot of those Coupe de France races. I mean I saw him win the French championships. There was not even. I mean. No, nobody had a chance. He's strong on. On these uphill finishes. You know, like I think was it last year in the. In the Giro that there was an uphill finish and he was. And he had won it already in the past and he was up there again. Yeah. And it was hard. It was a hard finish. Yep. So he's strong on those kind of. And this was not, this was not really uphill, but yeah, I mean, listen, it's been, it's been a few years since they had riders who could win races at ineos and who's, by the way, if I'm not mistaken, before the Tour de France is going to be called differently. Right.
- [34:45]
B
NET company Total Energies, I believe.
- [34:48]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's gonna take a while to get used to that.
- [34:51]
B
I know. Yeah.
- [34:52]
A
Let's see what happens with the colors. It's gonna be completely different. So. So that's, that's gonna be a big change. But yeah, I think it's a great transfer. So is Vocala, by the way? You know, Vocalize a strong rider, very all round rider. Been finished fourth, was caught out in that stage where the crashes and the crosswind happened and lost a lot of time there. But, but yeah, I think, I think they're. They're rebuilding, right? They're rebuilding and now with new money and the existing money of INEOS and, and Total Energies, their plan is to get back up there. I think what. First, what they need to accomplish, and I think they're in the process of, of getting there, is that INEOS needs to become a team again where riders want to go, you know, like, because it's very trendy. Right. Like a few years ago, everybody wanted to go to visma.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:51]
A
First everybody wanted to go to ineos. That was like the team. Okay, if I go to ineos, I'm gonna make a big step. Then it was Visma, now it's UAE Visma all of a sudden. I mean, every. There's still riders who want to go to Visma, but it's not the, you know, like the hot sexy team anymore where the youngsters want to go, you know, like the big talents. Right?
- [36:10]
B
Yeah.
- [36:12]
A
I mean, with all the respect for Visma, I mean, they're one of the top teams, you know, but, but so I think INEOS or NET Company in the future, they need to work on that, on getting that, that attraction factor back. And I think they're doing a good job.
- [36:27]
B
It is interesting how that waxes and wanes because UAE is the. Everyone wants to go to UAE now, but if you think back a few years ago, they had a hard time getting people to go. It was Not a sought after place but that, that's where everybody wants to go now. Like I was thinking, even though like, like Bahrain victorious, is that a sleeping giant? You know, they win that final stage at Perry.
- [36:48]
A
Nice.
- [36:48]
B
And I'm thinking, I never, I never really think about that team. But pretty, pretty good roster. It's something like Lenny Martinez is a very good rider.
- [36:59]
A
Yeah, I mean Martinez look, I mean he wins the last stage. Won a stage in Balinese last year, won a stage in Dauphiny last year, won a stage in Romandy last year. You know, he's always up there now in the races also we see those one day races. He was always top three, top five, super talented rider. But to me it seems like he is that specialist to select those specific stages and then go for the stage as a GC rider in a one week race. Yes. In a Grand Tour. I, I don't see it. I don't see it. He's a great climber and, and he can time trial also if he's in good shape. But something seems to happen always. So he's like this pure lightweight climber who gets caught out in crosswinds or got sick for example, in the Tour last year, was dropped on stage one all the time. So it looks like, it looks like he made a step forward this year and he's on a great level. But for ground tours, I'm still, I'm still cautious.
- [38:11]
B
Let's look. We're going backwards so we'll end it. Jonas vinegard second place. Danny Martinez. If you just looked at this results, you would not understand how impressive this is. He's second. 4 minutes 23 seconds back. He crashed with. What do you think? 50, 60K to go yesterday hard it was.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:30]
B
Flew off the road at really bad luck. He was moving up. His teammate was looking for him and was looking left, drifting right. Pushes him off the road into like a ditch, a concrete ditch. Looks like he has broken ribs, perhaps gets back on his bike. Super impressive from Red Bull. They do not panic. They do not even try to catch the group. They just ride at a pace that they know they can salvage second place because they have multiple minutes buffer because on stage four they raced in a way where they maximized their gap to third place. Did not worry about trying to overtake Jonas Vinegaard for first place. That proved to be the, the winning, not winning decision. The second place decision saved them a podium finish at Paris which is a big result for the team and for Danny Martinez. Do you think this is a trend where like we Will now see teams just trying to max like riding in a way that maximizes their chances of results versus instead of like all or nothing for the win.
- [39:24]
A
I mean, you know that we, we were, some people were critical of their, their way of riding. Was it stage four?
- [39:31]
B
Stage four, yeah. The rainy, cold day.
- [39:33]
A
You know, they, they pulled all day and you know, they basically rode with Jonas on the wheel until 1k to go. But you know, as we said, you know, it's, it's, it's a way of, of assuring a podium, first of all, which is not easy, especially with, with these guys who are dominant, like Jonas, like Pogachar. They. And it turned out to be the right call. You can look at it two ways. You know, you assure a podium which is already not easy, and then you're in a position. You never know what's going to happen to that leader, especially in these races here. You know, lots of riders crash in the beginning of the season because of the bad conditions. Paris, Nice particularly is not. I mean, I've ra. I've raced both of those races as a pro, never enjoyed parinis.
- [40:24]
B
It looks like the most miserable.
- [40:26]
A
They call it the race to the sun. But man, let me tell you, to get to the sun, it's sometimes a nightmare, often. And yeah, I've never enjoyed Pyrenees. And there's always things happening in Pyrenees. I mean, Tirino is the same. I mean, there's crashes, but usually the weather's a bit better. I'm not saying it was great weather in Tirno, but still it was better and, you know, less crosswinds. Then Tyrino is also different in the way that, you know, the, the roads are a lot worse. You know, you get into those villages where it's, it's, it's very tricky navigating the narrow roads and you know, the arches where you have to get through. But it's different. It's different. So, yeah, I mean, I think that that way of racing is not, it's not stupid. You know, it's, it's a way of, of. Okay, they got into a position where they had majority. They had. What did they have four guys initially with the Van Dyke brothers and Martinez. And there was another guy, or I
- [41:33]
B
thought it was four. It was kind of hard to tell because everyone was bundled up. But yeah, I believe. Hold on a second.
- [41:44]
A
They were, they had the vast majority. I mean, there was no other team that was representing.
- [41:48]
B
Nico Denz was the other guy.
- [41:50]
A
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a big engine. Also to make temple, you know, on the flats and on the rollers. So I think it was, I think it was the right way to do it. And, you know, the end result shows that Dani Martinez and Red Bull Bora Hansgrohe got second place thanks to that maneuver. So nobody can say that that was not a smart tactic.
- [42:15]
B
And it's another nail in the coffin of like raid style racing because Jonas Vinegaard, he's isolated, doesn't have to work because another team works for him. I think we're just going to see more of it. I don't know if that's what people want to hear, but Red Bull gets a big second place. Danny Martinez gets a big second place. They're rewarded for their conservative racing. And I think it's just going to be a trend that gets more and more common. So let's get the Jonas Finnegaard, the winner. Moo's not going to be happy with me about saying nice things about this win, but he potentially was vindicated because I'm talking up Jonas. I, I think he's doing great. You're saying. Oh, we're, we're both saying that we feel good about him at this year. To tell you, based on his double stage wins, attacks yesterday on the final stage, which was different than in years past, I believe because of local elections, they couldn't finish on the promenade. They finish in like an industrial park by the soccer stadium. Not as good. Hopefully they go back to the normal finish in your. In years following this. But Lenny Martinez, it kind of was an awkward attack. If you go back and watch it, Victor Campenaerts pulls off. It's almost like Jonas was caught off guard by that. He doesn't attack right away. He waits, then goes. It lets Martinez get in the wheel. He doesn't. He never stands up. It's a seated attack. Martinez is easy following him. Does not look under pressure at all. And then he's pushing on the descent and then he. Jonas lets him lead into the final corner. Lenny Martinez is a quick rider, though. And then he opens up. That sprint maybe is a, like a tribute to Julian Alphilipe. Sets up way too early to celebrate, almost loses it. But he holds off Vinegard, who's sprinting behind.
- [43:57]
A
Well, it looked, it looked different from the front, right? I mean, if you, if you see the helicopter shock, I'm gonna, you know, dare to say, Spencer, that there was an agreement between Jonas and Lenny for the stage win. They, they spoke, you know, they, they collaborated, both of them, at some point. I thought you Know what? They're, they're, the two of them are together, they're gonna, you know, look at each other and they're gonna come back in the back. I was thinking about that when they had 15, 20 seconds. But as soon as they got after the downhill and they, they spoke to each other, they, they rolled both full gas. I think Jonas didn't, didn't try 100 to win the stage. What I saw on the last climb, Spencer, to, to, to say about that, that movie today and UAE a lot of times, I think he has a point by saying that Jonas is not, I mean listen, he's, he wins, he wins, but he needs with more than four minutes. So he's in good shape. I think that's good enough to win most of the races where today is not, but it's not. I'm not impressed. Especially because Lenny Martinez looked comfortable, never looked in trouble. It wasn't really visible on camera, but I, I caught a little glimpse of. And it was strange, you know, like Jonas was pulling, he didn't attack, but you know, he, he usually, you know, he should drop Lenny Martinez. It was not a long climb, right? It was, what was it, six, seven minutes max?
- [45:48]
B
I think it was at basically a nine minute effort. Eight minutes, 55 minutes.
- [45:52]
A
Okay, but, but I saw Lenny Martinez high fiving a fan.
- [45:59]
B
That's crazy.
- [46:00]
A
Did you see the guy without the shirt?
- [46:02]
B
Yeah. Do you think he knew him or what was going on?
- [46:05]
A
I don't know. I mean I saw a video of the guy actually like the guy filming afterwards. It's on, on social media. I saw it. So the guy filmed it. And you see Lenny Martinez high fiving this guy while Jonas is trying to drop him. So that says to me that Lenny was pretty confident and, and quite comfortable and knew that he was not gonna get dropped. So anyways, you know, Jonas didn't need to drop him. Let's, let's start with that. Right? But if he would have been able to drop him, he would have done it then at the. Also if you look afterwards, if, if Jonas would have dropped Lenny Martinez, Lenny would probably have caught him in the downhill anyway. I, I, you know, Lenny is a good downhiller normally. Jonas is also. Is he scared now? After his crash on training, it was sometimes dry, sometimes wet in the corners. You know, he was very, very careful. But you know, he put, he put Jonas under pressure in that downhill and so, so yeah, I mean, listen, Jonas really good, but, but not impressive. This, let me tell you this. Jonas Vingegaard is not gonna beat this tale Pogachar.
- [47:18]
B
I, I agree. I, I don't know if I, maybe I was joking and I said that and somebody believed me. I just want it on the record. I do not think Jonas Vinegar is going to beat Teddy Picachar in the future at a three week race. I think he's looking fantastic for a second place at the Tour de France. I think that's, we're seeing him round in a form to be second again at the Tour if nothing happens to Pagacha.
- [47:41]
A
Spencer, let's not, let's not diminish, you know, the level of, of, of Jonas as a cyclist, as a champion. You know, like if everything goes to plan normally he should win the Giro. Right. You know that's, that's two, two wins in the, in the, in the Tour, one win in the Vuelta and one in the Giro. He still has to win it, but the chances are high that he becomes one of the guys who wins all three Grand Tours, which is unique. You know, there's not many riders who are able, have been able to do that. So if you're in that list, that brings you to one of the top riders in the world. And I think we have to pay tribute and respect to Jonas Winkegaard for you know, he still needs to win the Giro as we said but you know, if he does, he gets into a select club of riders who won all three Grand Tours and that's not nothing.
- [48:35]
B
And he's a freakishly. The most impressive thing about Jonas to me is freakishly consistent. It's like what we were talking about. Remco struggles to win these one week races. Jonas shows up to these Grand Tours. It's, it's second or first basically. It's rarely finishes below second. That's not many riders in history have ever done that for num. People that want numbers to know how hard these efforts were. And I usually don't like to do sub 10 minute climbs. You just like, you'll see big numbers. It's not always like that instructive. But the final climb, 8 minutes 55 seconds for Jonas, estimated watts 440 at 60 kilos. So 7.3 watts per kilo sounds like a lot. Right. But if you go back to f ardesh, Paul sh did that for 16 minutes. Right. So almost double the amount of time. It's a good effort. It's probably, it's not, it's not going to drop tad at the Tour. We should also say though, he already had the race wrapped up when he. Yeah, like who knows what was going like he might have just been managing his effort. We don't really know like what was going on.
- [49:36]
A
And also Spencer, let's take into account, you know, the last day of racing, you know, the cold.
- [49:42]
B
Yes, the cold.
- [49:42]
A
It's not easy to produce these numbers. You know, there's factors to be taken into account to, to look at these numbers, you know, in their, in, in the right context. So it's still, it's still a really, really good performance. I think the impressive performance was Lenny Martinez to be able to follow Jonas so comfortably that that was for me the most impressive performance of Paris.
- [50:05]
B
Yeah. And it does show like Lenny's part
- [50:07]
A
of Dan Hall, a part of Dan Hala in the team time trial. Yeah, yeah.
- [50:10]
B
The real, real heads know the ride of the race was Dan. Hola. And the team time trial back on stage two. I mean just to give people an idea about how much the sport has changed, I'm just clicking over to 2020 in my spreadsheet. Pagachar, his winning ride for the to win the Tudor France on that 16 minute climb in the time trial was sub was just below 7 watts per kilo and now we're scoffing at a 7.3 watt per kilo effort to seal up Perry knees. But yeah, the level just gets higher. We talked about it on Friday and it just seems to keep, keep going up.
- [50:44]
A
And also Spencer, you know, Pogachar's ride is on the second last day after three weeks, which is not the same.
- [50:50]
B
Well, and also we should say at the end of an all out 30 minute time trial effort.
- [50:55]
A
Right, exactly.
- [50:56]
B
And then you start the climb. Yeah. And that, and that's like what you want to keep in mind is Perry nice. You're never going to have great numbers because it's. You're freezing. You're a popsicle for the icicle. For the first like half of the race it was. They were in the snow on stage seven. The racing on stage eight, it looked nice. It probably wasn't as nice as it looked. You're just never going to see like record breaking efforts at paring east in my opinion.
- [51:19]
A
So I don't think so.
- [51:20]
B
We, we both, we do feel good about Jonas for the Giro. Probably the sport has not been ruined by Jonas Fendergaard as was feared on Friday. I think that's weight.
- [51:31]
A
You know, like before the Giro he does Catalunya which is pretty soon. So that's going to be interesting to see him against Remco. That's going to be an indication you know of. Let's. I mean you normally, normally Jonas should take it if the potential and the qualities as a GC rather are respected. But let's see, we will see there what his level is. Danny Martinez and Georg Steinhauser are not riders that you would name in your top five if you would go and predict a Grand Tour. Although Danny Martinez has finished second in the Giro already. Let's not forget that either.
- [52:18]
B
Pretty recently, actually that's two years ago.
- [52:21]
A
Two years ago.
- [52:22]
B
Pretty mind blowing behind. A pretty good performance too. Something you mentioned. Catalunya. Florian Lipowitz. Keep an eye on him at Catalunya. Interested to see how he. How he.
- [52:33]
A
They were both Remco and Florian Lipovitz were both on the training camp on the Tader. So they're going to both show up sharp and. And ready to fight.
- [52:45]
B
It's kind of funny that Jonas is doing all these stage races and then Tad is just. I think we talked about it last week with George, but his next stage race is Tour of Switzerland, I believe.
- [52:56]
A
Is it not Romandy?
- [52:58]
B
Oh no, no Romandy. I. No, wait. I don't think he is going to Randy. Oh no, it's on a schedule. We. You said that and then that popped. On a schedule. Maybe they listen to you initially.
- [53:11]
A
Initially, I think they announced Roman the Endur Switzerland. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's perfect for him.
- [53:17]
B
That is perfect. He doesn't. He doesn't need any preparation. One. One other thing I was going to ask you about. Hein Utabrooks. What is going on there?
- [53:27]
A
Keon.
- [53:28]
B
Keon moved to Movistar in the off season.
- [53:31]
A
Broke his wrist.
- [53:32]
B
Broke his wrist? Yeah.
- [53:34]
A
Broke his wrist in. Where was it?
- [53:38]
B
Was it Valenciana?
- [53:39]
A
Yeah. Tour of Valencia. Yeah. Broke his wrist. So I don't know. I mean he's recovering obviously, so we can't say. Right. I don't know when he's going to reappear.
- [53:49]
B
He's on the start list for Wednesday at Milano Torino.
- [53:53]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [53:54]
B
Well that's.
- [53:55]
A
That's good news.
- [53:56]
B
That's good news.
- [53:57]
A
And then Mats Peterson looks like he's gonna start the. The Spring Classics. Not Milan San Remo, but the Belgian Classics. So that's.
- [54:05]
B
That's pretty crazy.
- [54:06]
A
That's unbelievable.
- [54:07]
B
Yeah.
- [54:07]
A
You know Rock his collarbone on one side and his wrist on the other side.
- [54:13]
B
Yeah.
- [54:13]
A
And that's was also in Valenciana and yeah, he's training and yeah.
- [54:20]
B
On the schedule for E3. All right, well, anything else, Johan, before we take off?
- [54:26]
A
No, we'll be back soon. To predict. Preview. Milan Remo.
- [54:31]
B
Yeah. Very, very excited. I mean, this is all. This was all fun. But it starts getting serious on Saturday when you have Vanderpoel and Pagatra going at it.
- [54:41]
A
It's the monument, man, the monuments. There's nothing like. There's the monuments and the ground tour, Spencer, that's, you know, those races cannot be erased and. And are there for a reason.
- [54:51]
B
And the. They're races that are becoming rarer in cycling that you don't quite know who's going to win. Right. You have Sanremo, Flanders, Roubaix, Liege. We don't talk about maybe. Maybe that needs a reworking or something.
- [55:04]
A
But those three races, Lombardy, it's. If today starts, he wins.
- [55:10]
B
Pencil them in. Yeah, it's not fair. But those. Those first three, truly a wide variety of riders can win.
- [55:18]
A
And then also one. One race I really look forward to also Spencer, which is, you know, like. And more open races. Absolute cold race.
- [55:26]
B
Yeah.
- [55:26]
A
Yeah.
- [55:26]
B
You know what? That is the most, I'd say, like, democratic of the big races in recent years. Partly because of the course, partly because of where it is on the calendar. If you've done Rube. I don't believe anyone's ever won Rube and Amstel Gold in the same year when they.
- [55:42]
A
I think we have go back to maybe Eddie Merckx or something. I don't know.
- [55:46]
B
It's just so taxing to try to back up. Yeah, maybe. Maybe it is.
- [55:53]
A
You know who Yanra is?
- [55:54]
B
Yeah, I do. Only because of that. I think I've maybe looked this up before, and he was the only guy to win before.
- [56:00]
A
They used to call it the Amstel Gold R instead of like five or six times.
- [56:07]
B
1982, Rubai. And.
- [56:09]
A
And he did win Rube. So one of those years he must have won both.
- [56:12]
B
I think so. 1982, he wins Roubaix. Yep. And then one week later when Zam stole gold.
- [56:19]
A
He's my old boss, by the way. He was the man, the general manager of Rabobank when I. When I went there.
- [56:24]
B
Oh, crazy. I didn't know you were at Rabobank. What year?
- [56:29]
A
96. 97.
- [56:31]
B
First two years of Rabun and then that. 97 was your last year?
- [56:35]
A
No, 98.
- [56:36]
B
Oh, yeah, 98 and then 99. You were a manager?
- [56:39]
A
Yeah.
- [56:39]
B
Crazy. Well, we got to get that special, that podcast out. Talk about a transition.
- [56:45]
A
I was on Visma. I was on Visma. Basically. I was on Visma.
- [56:49]
B
That is.
- [56:49]
A
Yeah. Visma is the team. Is. Is Rabobang from the past.
- [56:53]
B
That is true. Interesting. That's why you're such a visma fan. You're always talking them up. All right, Johan. Well, we'll talk. We'll talk soon for San Remo and get in the monster soon. Okay, by
- [57:10]
A
Sam.