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- [00:01]
A
The move is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Not every sale happens at the register before AT&T business Wireless checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time.
- [00:45]
B
Sometimes AT&T business Wireless Connecting changes everything. I'm afraid that, you know, the days of breakaways that make it are a bit over unless you're a really good climber and in a mountain stage in a breakaway. But from now on I think it's going to be pretty straightforward racing. But yeah, I mean it's been entertaining so far. I think personally that the GC is done and dusted based on what I've seen from Jonas Wingergaard and Visma's strength. But that doesn't mean that we're not going to see any interesting racing anymore.
- [01:31]
A
Everybody, welcome back to the Move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are breaking down stage 15 which just finished this Sunday. And then we will also go through our week two review saying what we learned from week two, what we are looking forward to in week three as well. Johan, before we get going, do you want to quickly plug I I just remembered today our next full the Move episode will be live in Belgium. Do you want to quickly plug that if people want to come see us?
- [01:57]
B
Yes. For the first time in the existence of the Move, we will be doing a live podcast. I mean there's already been a live podcast in Mellow Johnny's I think, right?
- [02:09]
A
Yes.
- [02:10]
B
For Tour of Flanders. But now we're going across the ocean. There's the Wheeler Watage Festival in belgium which is 2930, 31 of this month. It's a three day event. There's a lot of activities all around cycling and I are going to be there already from I guess Thursday evening, Friday. So the Move will be, I mean it's the recap of the whole Giro. On the last stage of the Giro 31st of May, we will be there in Belgium at the Belgian coast on stage in front of a live audience of if I'M not mistaken, around a thousand people. So that will be exciting. So it'll be you, me and Bradley Wiggins.
- [02:58]
A
Yeah. Bradley, if you hear this, meet us there, please. This is your notification that we're doing a live show. And if you want to buy tickets or know where it is, there's a link in the show notes. You just have to go down there. But yo and we don't have to spend too much time on stage 15. Pretty simple stage. I thought it was going to be a boring stage. It kind of was a boring stage, but it was kind of amazing as well. RCS, they're playing 40 chess. They know what to serve us up on Sundays. It was 156km. A breakaway win early. You could tell the sprinters teams right away were nervous. It was very nervy because they're all very tired because they just had a brutal mountain stage yesterday. They don't want to have to pull back a big move. So they don't let this move go then. Bardiani Pulte VISIT MALTA Kudos to this team. These teams, they are. They know what they're here to do and they're not messing around. They immediately counterattack. It's Mirko Miestri, Martin Marshkulu. I'll let you say his last name. Marcel Lucy and then Matthias Matia Bice. These are all strong guys. These are like stalwarts of the zero breakaway. They are up the road. They have a small gap. 153k to go. The sprinters team say this is fantastic. Let's block the road. Well, there's a uno X rider on the side of the road who's waiting for this to happen, does not stand up. But they're going 52k an hour, so he must be going pretty fast. And he just kind of accelerates seated without making a scene right off the front. And then right as he goes, the road is blocked. I thought it was a very smart move. Good way to get in the breakaway way without burning a lot of matches. He gets up there, they maybe have a little moto help. They're ripping along 51k an hour average. They go into Milan is actually as soon as they get into Milan, you can kind of tell they're not going to catch them because they're not bringing any time back. It's just hovering around two minutes. Once you're in a city like that, you can go very fast in a breakaway, especially if you have cars in front of you. There's not a lot of wind. You're protected by the buildings and all the cars and the vehicles can create almost a wind vortex through the. Like a. It sucks you along through these buildings. And the peloton just couldn't get any. They could not get a tight, like a speed advantage on them. They couldn't pull it back. UNOX wins. There also was a time neutralization. GC time. We'll talk about that later in the episode. But Johan, who. What's the name of our winner? I'm not even gonna attempt this.
- [05:15]
B
Okay. It's. It's Frederick versus it's a bit. I mean, for me also it's not easy to pronounce, but his second important race he wins, I think. I mean, he won a few other races, but I remember more wins than I thought, actually.
- [05:34]
A
Yeah, seven pro wins. Yeah.
- [05:36]
B
Yeah. So he won a stage in Tirano Adriatico, staying ahead of Matthew van der Poel. And now in the. In the Giro state, the stage win, he's 29 already. He's a bit of an all rounder. But today he was definitely on a mission. To me he looked like the strongest and the smoothest in the breakaway and. And he looked like he. It looked like he was pretty confident that he was going to win this and he won it quite, quite easily, I would say.
- [06:07]
A
Yeah, I wouldn't say an easy win. They had to work hard to stay out in front. But yes, once. Once they were inside the last few hundred meters, it was almost a formality. Like, it almost looked like. It looked like Miastri was sprinting behind him and he wasn't sprinting, but he was ahead of him. It was almost an optical illusion. I thought he didn't know where the finish line was. But yeah, he won a stage of Arctic Tour of Norway. I'm always kind of on vacation, not paying attention when that's happening. But that was last year. But yeah, we remember him from Torino Adriatico Stage 5 last year, where he stayed ahead of Matthew Vanderpoel for solo breakaway. So clearly he's strong, I would guess. Una. As soon as I saw UNOX go in the breakaway, wanting to be in the breakaway, I was a little suspicious because that's a team that everything they do, they do with a lot of thought. So they clearly had thought about this. They thought, you know, Una bet that's a big team. All those guys are big guys. Except for wild poles. They're going to be fatigued from the mountain stage. Yesterday you could tell too, like Sudal Lidl, the guys pulling on the front, they were at a very low cadence. Everyone looked like they had noodle legs.
- [07:10]
B
Well, Spencer, that's usually what happens after two weeks of racing. You know, in, in a grand tour. Everybody's super tired. Lots of teams don't have a full team anymore. Some guys are sick, some guys are just dragging themselves. I mean the top speed is not there anymore. But anyway, Spencer, I, I would like to, I mean I know you, you, you have your thoughts on the, on this controversy. I would say first of all, these four riders were riding really strongly. 51 km average for the whole stage. It's super fast. And then, you know, there was quite a few complaints actually from the peloton. Some heavy criticism from some riders saying that. Yeah, well, today the motorbikes decided that the brake was going to stay away. What's, what do you think about this?
- [08:05]
A
I guess it's, it's like a two pronged question. Did the motorbikes help them today? Yes, they did. Did the motorbikes help them every day? Yes, they do. I mean go look at Fleet Organa's time trial. There's a cavalcade in front of him the whole time. You know, like this happens every, every stage. Especially if there's Italians up the road and you're at the gir Italia. I would be frustrated too if I was little Trek and I'm, you know, because here I'm just gonna. This is the math on. This is crazy. So with 33k to go, if the all the breakaway, let's say the breakaway averaged 52k an hour, which they did. The peloton has to average around 55k an hour to reel them in. With 33k to go, that's probably not going to happen. I mean you're reaching a velocity that a group just can't hold on the flats. So that is frustrating for them.
- [08:54]
B
Oh yes. But you know, I would, I would. On the contrary, I would say, you know, you can also argue that the four riders in front are or should get fatigued and gradually slow down. Obviously that didn't happen today, but that's usually what's been taken into account when a breakaway is a pro.
- [09:15]
A
I know, but is a pro rider really going to fatigue is a three hour long stage. I don't think a pro is going to fatigue over three hours after two weeks.
- [09:22]
B
Yes.
- [09:25]
A
Yeah. This is to them, this, this is Victor CampenaERT's morning activation three hours span at around threshold. That's not every day when he wakes up.
- [09:34]
B
Listen, they did a hell of a job. But I kind of, I can understand the frustration this is not the first time we're. You. We're hearing this. We're hearing this a lot. Right. And so it does happen. It does happen.
- [09:44]
A
But if we were hearing. We do hear a lot. But if it's so well known, why don't more riders get in the breakaway then. If it's a cheat code to winning.
- [09:52]
B
Yeah, okay, but it shouldn't happen. It does happen. I mean, you know, everybody wants to be there. Everybody wants to have that perfect picture. You know, there were. There were complaints in the Tour of Romandy from riders about Tade Pogachar being behind the motorbikes. Also, you know, if I've seen this many, many times in races, you know, motorbikes and cars can influence the. The. The outcome of the race. Of course, the guys we have heard complaining were the guys from Little Track, the guys from Unibet and the guys from Sudal Quickstep, the three teams that didn't manage to bring the break back. Right. But I think it was. It was kind of telling Walsheit's interview, you know, he said, he said, you know, we. And the rockets, the rockets in Sudal, we burned our whole team and we were not able to catch them all the time on the flat. I was doing 500 watts. The motorbikes took the stage away. He said, you know, same comments from, for example. And then a guy from Unibed Reindeers who said that. I have his quote here. Let me see. That was also quite interesting. He said something like, here, very frustrated reindeer speaks clearly about the motorbikes. We have burned 30 people in the chase and we were not able to catch them. You could see Spencer with, you know, with. With. Normally I would say, you know, okay, the peloton can accelerate, the breakaway slows down. You know, they're going to look at each other, taking all. All that into account. With 20, 25 kilometers, I said, you know, maybe it's still possible. The last 15 to 10 kilometers, when the break kept it around like 45, 50 seconds, I started to say, okay, this is not going to happen. And then on top of that, you see that teams were really running out of firepower. You know, I mean, when. When Derek G. Himself, who is the GC guy, or I mean, I assume he still is, he's still in the top 10. When he needs to come to the rescue just to keep the pace up, then, you know, okay, this is going to be very difficult.
- [12:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [12:12]
B
You know, and then, and then what you have is that's when you. When you really knew that they were not going to catch them. Because normally, you can see, sometimes it happens, right? There's a guy away or two, you know, and then in the last kilometer, they have 15 seconds and the peloton just comes surging, you know, that this was. This was not going to happen because it was the lead out guys themselves who had to do the chase. So in the last kilometer, there was never going to be that acceleration anymore. That usually happens. And brings down. Brings back 10 to 15 seconds in the last kilometer.
- [12:46]
A
Yeah. You know, it's bad, too, when Unibet's launching attacks themselves. That's never a good sign. That means it's done.
- [12:53]
B
That was a real panic attack. That. That was not. Yeah, that was not bringing anything.
- [12:58]
A
Yeah, I didn't hate it. Yeah, I didn't hate it, because what if they start messing?
- [13:01]
B
I think it's. I think it's. It's nice. It's nice that the breakaway makes it. You know, it suspends until the end. Otherwise it would have been a very predictable stage. Not nothing. I have nothing against bunch prints. You know, there's not that many in this Giro anyway.
- [13:18]
A
But.
- [13:19]
B
But, yeah, I mean, listen, Chapo, for those four guys, you know, they worked for it. I mean, it's. And it's. And the thing is, it's not their fault that the motorbikes are so close. You're right. I mean, if you want to have that advantage and you go in the break, you know you're going to have that advantage. So you could say, well, you know, if that's the way you have to race with that mentality, it's kind of messed up.
- [13:40]
A
It is, but I'm definitely not saying it's not messed up. I'm just saying every. It seems like every race, we hear complaints about it. Maybe alter your behavior.
- [13:51]
B
And look, you know, in today's cycling, with eyes everywhere, you know, everybody's a photographer, everybody's a videographer, everybody's. Everything's controlled and is on social media straight away. You know, in the 80s and the 90s, I mean, there were some racist men. I mean, it was unbelievable.
- [14:09]
A
Know.
- [14:09]
B
I mean, I just sent you a video there of, you know, a big race in Italy, where it was. But it was normal. I mean, you kind of. You attacked on the Poggio, you were behind. And especially if you're an Italian, you're. You're behind the motorbikes, you do the downhill, you come on the. On the Via Roma, and it's like. It's like, you know, an echelon of Cars and motorbikes. You're. You're. You're drawn to the. You know, to the finish line. It was often also like, I remember, even in the early 2000s, you know, when we were racing Paris Roubaix, you always knew, you know, the guy in Paris Roubaix, for example, the guy who comes in first position and with a little bit of advantage out of Carrefour de La, wins the race because the motorbikes are there waiting, and it's like. There's like a whole group of motorbikes that, you know, they come one by one to have that shot, and you're
- [15:02]
A
gone, you know, And I guess in defense of the breakaway, like, because the breakaway is definitely. They had a moto right in. Sorry, the peloton had a moto right in front of them. For once, they were in Milan. I guess where it starts to become a problem is the speed. You know, you look at this Uno X bike, this thing is a speed machine. Like, they don't. Doesn't look like they care about climbing at all. It's just like a track bike almost. And when you have people that arrow plus a moto, it doesn't matter if the peloton has a moto, because they can't. They physically cannot go fast enough, even with the draft, to overcome the differential, I guess would be the argument.
- [15:39]
B
Bike is probably not that much of a factor.
- [15:42]
A
I don't know, man. These bikes and these. These setups they have, you don't think that that's me, but why are the speeds getting so fast, then? No, no.
- [15:50]
B
I mean, no, no, I'm not saying that, but it doesn't make that much of a difference because everybody's in our. On a RO bikes. But.
- [15:57]
A
But. But if everyone's on an aero bike, it makes it harder to catch the breakaway because it's harder to grow. There's a point where you cannot go any faster even with an arrow setup. So it's harder to pull breakaways back than it used to be.
- [16:10]
B
Yeah.
- [16:11]
A
Yeah. So it's kind of not fair if they have aero setups and they have a moto, because even if you have an arrow set up yourself with your own moto, you can't overcome the time differential because you can't go 60k.
- [16:25]
B
It was clear what. What Walsh had said. You know, I was doing 500 watts on the flats. We could not go any harder. There you have it. They couldn't go any harder, but, you know, they were also going very, very fast in the front. They asked. They asked this that, that was a good quote. Actually they asked Frederick Versnes about that, you know, complaints, those complaints from the peloton about the motorbikes and he made a very good statement. He said, yeah, it's true. There were four, four motorbikes in the breakaway today. I, I mean they wrote, they rode the hell of a race, man, those four guys.
- [17:04]
A
I'd be annoyed if I just won a zero stage from a breakaway that anyone could have jumped in and that's what I got. Asked how many Norwegians have won a stage of this year to tell you, I don't know the answer. I just know Tour Shop won one and then today this might be it.
- [17:21]
B
No, no, there's more. More? Yeah, yeah. There's other guys. There's other guy. I think there's other guys. I don't know. I mean I, I'm just thinking. I'm just thinking about one guy that just comes to mind from, from my era, Doc. Otto Laurenson, Maria.
- [17:36]
A
Yeah, that would make sense.
- [17:41]
B
I don't know. I don't know before.
- [17:42]
A
Hush off though. I mean a lot besides Doug, how many Norwegians had one Grand Tour stages? Was there many? No, I don't think so. Yeah, it is, I mean it is cool to see. It's cool to see Unox. I like to see a team coming in with a plan and executing versus a lot of the teams. I mean if you're little track, if you're unibet, if you should all quick step, you're not going to get in the breakaway. They're not going to let each other get in the move. But what about like picnic? Should they have been up there?
- [18:15]
B
Yeah, but you know, then the question is can they?
- [18:19]
A
That's, that's a sad question. If we have second division Italian teams in a move and then you're asking if picnic physically can be up there. That's not a good situation. But it does show you like how fast they're going in this break. These are not just like these Italian teams are not out there just soaking up TV time. A lot of time they're going fast and I heard there was even concern from the organizer that today would be a slow stage because one would want to get in the breakaway. It's like guys, we got eight stages left and a lot of teams here haven't won. So what is it?
- [18:53]
B
157k. So this three hour race today, right?
- [18:57]
A
Three hour race? Yeah, yeah. Pretty wild. Try to go out and ride at 32 miles an hour today on your ride after this.
- [19:06]
B
I Can I can do that? In some downhills I get to that speed.
- [19:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. If I was descending Haleakala for three hours, I could average 32 miles an hour for three hours. But let's take a quick break and then we'll be back. I'm going to ask you if was an Italian conspiracy and why. Actually that doesn't make any sense. Hey everybody. This episode is brought to you by Sheath Underwear. Here's a hot take that you might not be ready for, but I'm going to say it anyway. Most underwear is terrible and if you've ever had to ride longer than expected in non cycling clothes, or if you just been out in a hot European summer day, which we're all getting right now, it's a full on issue that affects everything. Not just an inconvenience. But Sheath has it figured out, so don't worry. Their dual pouch design keeps everything separated, reduces skin contact, contact eliminates the adjusting, the sticking, the chafing. Once you try it, you genuinely wonder why no one did this sooner. The fabrics are premium too. Bamboo classic cotton. Lightweight and breathable in a way that actually holds up whether you're grinding through your workout or just grinding through the long travel day to get to where you need to go. That sometimes when underwear is the most important. And it's got a great backstory too. Sheath was invented by an active duty soldier, designed for long, harsh, sweaty days in the field. Recommended by urologists trusted by elite athletes across ufc, weightlifting and golf. This isn't a fashion underwear brand, so if you're just trying to look good, this isn't for you. It's a performance product that happens to be the most comfortable thing you'll put on all day. And you know, if it's good enough for active duty soldiers, it's probably good enough to get me to Belgium for this live show. So feel it. To believe it, go to sheath.com the move and use code the move for 20% off. And sheath even offers a first pair guarantee. So it's not. If it's not for you, you get your money back. But honestly, once you try these, there's no going back. That's sheath.com the move a s h e a t h.com/the move and use code the move for 20% off sheath the underwear of legends. Thanks to Chief for sponsoring the episode. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. The Move is a podcast, obviously, because you're listening to it, you know that, but a lot of people don't know we sell Merch on our website and selling and fulfilling merch is harder than you think. We could not do it without Shopify. And what is Shopify exactly? Well, Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses worldwide. 10% of all e commerce in the US from major household brands to people just getting started exactly like we were. And what we love about it is it genuinely removes friction. Everything you need, inventory, payments, analytics is all in one place. No juggling platforms, no disappearing down rabbit holes trying to figure out where a tool lives. They've got AI built in that writes product descriptions, improves your product photography and helps you market across email and social like you've got a whole behind you. And if you get stuck, award winning 24. 7 customer support is right there. Oh, and that purple shop pay button, best converting checkout on the planet. This isn't even in the copy. I'm just saying this. It is unbelievable. When I see that I'm pressing it and I'm through, the anxiety leaves my body. I can buy things so easily. That's great for the people selling me things. Fewer abandoned carts, more sales. It's time to turn those wh ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the move go to shopify.com themove that's shopify.com themove okay, Johan, we, we are back. So I don't know if this was Max Walshide or another writer, but they hinted that this was an Italian conspiracy to help the Italian teams. Wouldn't it been more advantageous for the country of Italy for the peloton to be contesting the stage with Jonathan Milan?
- [22:41]
B
Well, I mean, Jonathan Milan is not in the top 10 today. But anyway, it's not, it's, you know, it's. They didn't sprint for the victory, but I don't think it's an Italian conspiracy. Firming proof is, you know, the Italians didn't win.
- [22:54]
A
Yeah, if it was a conspiracy, not a great one.
- [22:56]
B
You know, there was three Italians and, and one Norwegian and so that's the guy who wins. But no, I don't, I don't think so. It's, it's just the nature of the race. I mean, I do agree though because we see it more, we see it a lot and you know, there's a lot of complaints from riders. It's not the first time last year, I mean years, years and years already. There's something should be done about this. The, the problem is what can be done, right? I mean, there's always going to be vehicles, you know, moving back and forth, you know, that we need. Because otherwise we wouldn't be able to watch the race. Spencer, you know, let's be clear.
- [23:36]
A
Some of the. If you start to pay attention though, we get really close front on shots and you're like this is maybe, yes, maybe pull that thing out a little further.
- [23:45]
B
That could not, that cannot be, that cannot be an excuse. I mean with today's technology with cameras, you can have a tailor lens on there, you can be 100 meters in front and you can still have them. Yeah, I don't think that should be the reason. I, I don't know what the solution is but you know, if we see side shots and shots from the back and now and then a shot from the front, I could live with that. We don't need to see them always from the front.
- [24:17]
A
Yeah, exactly. Why do I need this continuous shot from the front? Yeah, I don't. I do find that odd sometimes. Like why are we up their nostrils for four hours? Does this.
- [24:30]
B
I think it's more. It's not just one motorbike. It's the constant move of, you know, vehicles and they take turns. You know, they all want their shot. And yeah, I mean obviously you're saying
- [24:42]
A
this is Liz Cruz fault.
- [24:46]
B
I've seen her on a motorbike.
- [24:48]
A
I could imagine her saying get close
- [24:50]
B
to that guy wishing her driver to be in this position and I know I want that shot. I mean and everybody does the same. Everybody wants to the shot, you know. So yeah, I think it needs to be probably more regulated. Less motorbikes for sure. Less motorbikes would be a solution. You know, I would, I would be in favor of installing a system for example, to, to, to mix it up a little bit like, like you know, all the riders on the teams and all the teams have on by cameras and we would get really, really, really good images from within the peloton. They can mix that up with. I mean it's a lot of work for the production team to do at Life but you know, if everybody has the camera it's, you know, it's equal, equal playing field. It's been talked about. It's the same as always, you know, the childish, the child is dispute and the fight about the who owns the rights of those images. You know, the, the teams will say we own it. The organizers will say we own it. The UCI will say okay, we own it. Why don't we just share. Let's just share the ownership and share, you know, the revenue of those images. That would be a good. It would solve a lot of problems. We would get other images that are really interesting, so we would need less images from the front. It would solve, you know, some financial struggles for certain teams. And both the organizers and the UCI would also get extra income.
- [26:31]
A
On. Yeah, there's a lot of pushback on. Oh, we, we can't. Can't do that technologically. It's like. Well, I'm. I'm seeing a live feed of an F1 driver's helmet. So I think in the live broadcast. So you can probably figure that out.
- [26:43]
B
That's not the same Spencer, because an F1, it's on. That's on a circuit. The problem with a bike race is it's moving. And you always need to have planes, helicopters, planes that you can relay to all the time. The images, you know, you need them fast. You know, you don't need them 30 minutes later. You need them now. That's the issue.
- [27:07]
A
Well, you've keyed us up perfectly because was today's race on a circuit? It was. And why was it kind of in a weird. Kind of a weird stage? If you think about it, how often do you see a circuit in a. A capital level city? I know Milan's not technically the capital of Italy, but a major city in a country that's not the last day. You rarely see it. It has happened in Milano before, and you were there 2009. And the stage was neutralized. Happened in Rome. That was at the end of the Giro that year in 2018. And they neutralized. The riders refused to race on it. So it's not. This probably didn't catch them completely off guard, but a.
- [27:47]
B
Why did.
- [27:48]
A
I'm. I'm not going to complain so much because I. This was one of my favorite stages of the race so far to watch. I thought it was actually pretty fun. But it is a weird stage to have on stage 15. It felt like a final day procession. It was on a city circuit that was deemed so dangerous by Jonas Finnegaard. He went and yelled at the commissaire and they neutralized the time.
- [28:09]
B
Yeah, I have my. My comments on that. It's not deemed by Jonas Vigger. Jonas was the voice of the peloton. Same as 2009. I do remember it vividly. Was more or less the same circuit. It was also in the middle of the. Of the. Of the Giro. The. The Giro also finished in Rome that year. It did rain a bit at some point, and then it kind of got dry a little bit. But it was super dangerous. The whole peloton was complaining they didn't want to race. Then Lance had the task to go and talk with, with the race director, which was Angelo Zomeignan at the time. He got so mad, the peloton decided not to race. And finally they decided, okay, the race is neutralized and the race goes on just for the stage win, but not for the time. You know, I got in a little discussion with ex UCI president Brian Cookson on social media about this. He said that, you know, this shouldn't happen like minutes before the end of the race to have to change this. I argued that, you know, unless you're not in the. In the middle of the situation, being the riders and actually experiencing the risks and the potential dangers, you can't judge. And then he said, okay, you know, I meant that this should not be the case, that this gets approved. Why.
- [29:35]
A
Why are we having this conversation during the race? Yeah, exactly.
- [29:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I agree kind of with Cookson on the fact that a stage like this, you have to take into account that this can be risky and there needs to be a plan B. Who says it's not going to rain? You know, in case of rain, this, this was, this was going to be impossible to race.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah. And do you think city circuits. Not. Maybe not. I shouldn't phrase it like that. Do you think riding in on circuits in big cities like this is generally more dangerous than an open course? That they would.
- [30:14]
B
I mean, I mean, yes, because. Especially because in a city, the roads are more greasy. Always cars, you know, more.
- [30:21]
A
More furniture on the road, too.
- [30:23]
B
And so the slightest bit of rain, you're. It's. It's ice skating instead of bike racing. But anyway, today didn't rain, but the riders felt like it was dangerous. I'm. I mean, I can't say because, you know, of course I'm not there. If there were many complaints, it's probably for a reason. More because of the risk of, okay, why do we have to race like crazy here on this city circuit and lose time? We've been fighting for two weeks to maintain our position, and now because of a stupid circuit. So finally, what they did initially, so the 5 kilometer rule was already in place instead of the 3 kilometer rule. So that means that if anything happens in the last five kilometers, you get the time of the group you're in. And I think it means that it's
- [31:18]
A
any crash or mechanical. Right. It means you can't just sit up.
- [31:21]
B
Right, Exactly. Then I think the initial. Then afterwards, they said in the first instance, the way I saw it, is they were going to change the 5 kilometer rule to, okay, GC is taken with 5K to go. And then they kept pushing the riders, and then finally they said, okay, the last lap, once you cross across the finish line, the second last time, that's the time of gc. And then the last lap is, you know, for the, for the stage win. I, I, I'm, I don't think it's a bad decision. It just, maybe it should have been made. Maybe it should have been made. This decision should have been made already before the race.
- [31:59]
A
You know, I, I agree. I think great outcome. I think it should have been that just should have been on the schedule the whole time. Right, but can they not do that with, like, is there something in the rules that says they can't put that in beforehand? Why does this always happen during the stage?
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
- [32:17]
A
I don't know.
- [32:17]
B
I guess, I guess they, you know, listen, if I have not heard any writers complain today about that decision, that the times were taken on the second, the second last time on the finish line. Nobody has complained about that. Right. Because nobody is going to take advantage of the situation. Nobody's going to gain time on an opponent because, because of this. So I think it was a good decision. It's just like when we talked about this before, before the show. Spencer, my question is the approval of the courses. You know, I mean, we've had, we've talked, we're talking about this many, many times. You know, stages that are super dangerous. Who approves these courses and when are they approved? They announced the route, what, five, six months before the race or even more. I don't know. In the case of the Giro, because
- [33:18]
A
the Giro, a normal Grand Tour, does it. Yeah, maybe eight or nine months before.
- [33:23]
B
Then the question is, who goes and checks out these courses physically and says, okay, hey, you know what? This, this is not good. You know, does it happen?
- [33:35]
A
I don't think, I think it happens the morning of.
- [33:37]
B
They're supposed to be, you know, responsible people at the UCI. We've already talked about this. Who are these people? Are they, I sometimes, I see that sometimes they're, they're part of the organization, the UCI, the safety manager, or whatever it is. So this system does not work. There's too many instances that it's dangerous and you get to the moment or the day before or in the race, and then, hey, you know what? We can't race like this. Somebody has to check out These courses, it should be done. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, you know, they're not doing it on beforehand, they're doing it once they're there, and then not much can be changed.
- [34:27]
A
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think that's why it happens. I guess in, in their defense, no one should really be defending that because it's unacceptable.
- [34:36]
B
Right.
- [34:37]
A
They should be checking everything out far beforehand. But the courses kind of don't exist until the day before. Because if you and I went to check this finish out in November, we're just in the middle of Milan. There's no course, there's no barriers set up. It doesn't look anything like it would look when the race is happening.
- [34:56]
B
Yeah, that's true. I mean, a race course changes completely. You go out and check. I mean, I've done this many times with riders. You go and recon a course in April and you need to imagine what it's going to look like in July. You know, it's completely different. Yeah, the same with this city circuit. You know, I'm even going to think in city circuit, like, it's a big, big city like Milan, there's probably even parts where if you go in normal traffic and check it out, you can't preview the course because there's probably one way streets that the riders go in and it's. It's completely different, you know, so that's why a city circuit is obviously always tricky to, to put that in a course. You know, you have it on the last day, you know that everything's done. Nobody will. Nobody will do any. Anything crazy. Usually, like for example, on the Champs Elysees, when it starts to rain lightly, they usually neutralize the times when at the entrance of the Champs Elysees. It has happened many times already, but it's still always a debate in the race, in the stage.
- [36:07]
A
It's so odd.
- [36:08]
B
Yeah, always the same.
- [36:10]
A
And I think, I think the outcome today was great. Where they got was fantastic. But yeah, how they get there. Why are we constantly doing this in the middle of the stages and it can't look good? You know, you and I are very bad judges of this because we're going to watch no matter what. But if you're just a regular person and you turn on HBO Max, and you're like, what the hell's going on here? Like, why are they debating the route during the stage? I said, it just doesn't reflect that well in the sport, probably.
- [36:38]
B
No, it doesn't look professional.
- [36:40]
A
Well, Johan, let's take one more ad break and then we will go through week two, talk about who won, who lost, and then what we're looking forward to in week three, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Saily. I spend a lot of time traveling in different countries for my work breaking down pro cycling and I'm using a ton of mobile data when I'm there to pull up the live checker, just stream the race like I'm going to be doing in a few days. And I'm glad I have Sally because I've not really planned ahead and if you don't, your phone bill can get out of control. But Saily fixes that. It's an EIM app from the same people who built NORDVPN that gives you affordable data plans in over 190 countries. No swapping SIM cards, no waiting to the airport, no navigating Belgian phone stores. You download the app, grab a plan before your trip and you're connected the second you land. You can do it. You sit on the plane you're on, you're not even taking off. I'm going to be doing that. 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Since switching, I've noticed waking up more refreshed and that it's easier to jump out of bed at 4:30am to catch the start of these zero stages and think about the riders at the zero racing all day day after day and then being expected to show up as strong the next day. For them, recovery isn't a nice to have. It's a critical piece of their Arsenal. Go to lagoonsleep.com the move and take the two minute quiz. Use code MOVE M O V E for 15 off. That's lagoonsleep.com the Move Lagoon the marginal gain you've been sleeping on everybody. This episode is brought to you by Square Square. Some big news to share their latest releases event they've rolled out a wave of new tools built to help local businesses run faster, smarter or more profitably. I was just at a local coffee shop in town that uses Square checkout was seamless tap to pay text receipt instantly. Super clean setup. No, no. Like what is with these? It's like a booklet of receipts you can get sometimes. 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Run your business smarter with square. Get started today. Okay, we are back. So just to. To wrap people up on week two, what happened? What, what, where are we? We started week two in on the coast in the time trial, stage 10. There's also a weird zero because this is our third rest day that we're going into. But it's only the end of the second week. So we had kind of a, you know, stage 10 through 15. So Ghana wins the time trial. 42 kilometer time trial. Rips it maybe a little bit of help from he. I don't know if we didn't talk about this in the podcast. Maybe he passed. He must have passed 10 riders, maybe more seven. And he had just constant, you know, because there's a, there's a car, there's the rider, there's things.
- [41:35]
B
At least seven cars and seven motorbikes.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah. And sometimes it looked like at least,
- [41:40]
B
at least there was more.
- [41:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then stage 11 won by Jonathan Narvaez is kind of a beautiful breakaway stage win. Is that right? Has he won more stages than I'm forgetting? It must have been out of a breakaway. Correct. Am I wrong? Stage 11, yeah, he was over in Rick Moss. He was on like a pseudo mountain stage. And then we had the breakaway. The late, late breakaway on stage 12 should have been. Was supposed to be a prod bunch sprint, not a. Yeah, reduced sprint of some kind. Out of the peloton by Alec Segart. And then stage 13, Alberto Betiol, another beautiful. We had a lot of beautiful wins here. Beautiful breakaway win along Lake Majore. Stage 14 was a tough mountain stage. Visma. I don't know if we talked about this enough in the podcast, but they must have had everyone's effort broken down to the meter and they executed perfectly like where everyone was going to pole. And that's why Tim Rex needed to get to that point. Pushed himself over the limit. Jonas Finard wins, takes the race lead. And then today the breakaway, another breakaway stage win in Milan. The Johan. The. The common theme here is the sprinters are not getting a lot of chances. These breakaways are going up the road. If we go through the. The wins we have. Jonas Finnegard has three wins. Jonathan Arias has three wins. Paul Monier is two. The only real sprinter with the stage win. Thomas Silva has won. Igor Arieta has won. David de Ballerini has won. Alberto Betiol has won. Segart has won. Vernis Lapvik, today's winner, has won. Ghana has won. And the teams are even. It's even. A bleaker picture. UAE has four wins, Visma has three, Astana has three, Sodal Quickstep has two. Net company Naos has one, Bahrain has won and Unox has won all of those. Unox is maybe technically a smaller team, but it is a World Tour team and they do put a lot of money and time into their preparation. So it's showing you that these wins are not coming just to teams like, oh, we're going out there to race. Oh, we won a stage. Like you have got to be dialed in at this year to tell you to win a stage. Are the sprinters team starting to get worried? I mean, suit all quickstep, they're minted. Paul Monier, he doesn't win another stage. He still has a great tour. But is everyone else little worried?
- [43:56]
B
I mean, of course. I mean, I think the difference what we see in this G compared to other races is that more breakaways actually have a chance. I mean, there's been some big ground tours where we, you know, like breakaways just didn't have a chance. You know, it's so controlled either by GC or by sprinter, sprinter teams that breakaways didn't make it. Now you just named those last five stages. There's three breakaways in there, right? Three.
- [44:25]
A
Well, it was a breakaway every day except for the time trial and then the point.
- [44:30]
B
Yeah. So that's good. That's good. I mean, today obviously is an exception. There should have been a bunch print. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's interesting and it's also motivating for some teams that they do have a chance if they go into breakaway. I'm afraid that, you know, the days of breakaways that make it are a bit over unless you're a really good climber and in a mountain stage in a breakaway. But from now on, I think it's going to be pretty straightforward racing. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's been entertaining so far. I think personally that the GC is done and dusted based on what I've seen from Jonas Wingergaard and Visma's strength. But that doesn't mean that we're not going to see any interesting or interesting racing anymore.
- [45:24]
A
I'm going to ask you about the GC in a second. But something else that happened today that's interesting or I guess on Sunday for listening to this on the rest day that no one will notice. So Paul Magne, we were talking yesterday, oh, he's going to win the stage. He's going to get the jersey back, the points jersey. He does get the points jersey back, but just by 14 points because he gets one point at the intermediate sprint and he gets fifth on the stage. He wins the bunt sprint. He only gets 14 points though. If he would have won the stage, he gets 50. So that's a 36 point Delta. He basically misses 36 points on today's stage. And then going into these next few stages, Narvaez is going to, I assume, go up, try to go up the road and start getting intermediate sprint points. He might even win more stages because there's multiple breakaway potential breakaway days. Is Paul Monier in serious trouble in this points jersey?
- [46:12]
B
It's not going to be. I mean, Narvis is going to try and he's in incredible shape. So that's his big rival. I mean, it's kind of, you know, strange to see that another sprinter is not the rival for the Chiclamino jersey. No, but, but that's going to be an interesting battle. And if Narvaez gets in a break and has. I mean, but what are the points for non sprint stages or is it the same points?
- [46:41]
A
I believe it's less. So it's 51st a sprint stage. It's. Oh wow, it's really dynamic. So like Yesterday was, was 15 points. If we go back to stage 11, Narvaez got 25 points for that stage. But then some of them might be like stage nine might have been. Is that 30 points at the finish? But there's still 15.
- [47:03]
B
Yeah, there's still Rome where it should be a bunch print. So that's, that's going to be 50 points. Right.
- [47:08]
A
So it could be, it could be,
- [47:10]
B
it could very well be that the, the points jersey is not decided until
- [47:14]
A
Rome and that might be, that might be what we have to look forward to for the rest of this. For the rest of this race. Also another classification that's not GC Kom. So I'm, I'm sure everyone's locked in on this, but Jonas Finnegaard is a one point lead over Pablo Sevilla. Diego Diego. Pablo Sevilla. And then Felix Gall is behind. Sorry, no, I, I'm on the wrong stage. I think Chacone is third and that's what I was going to ask you about. So sorry. Jardi. Christian Vanderle is second and then Chacone is third. Vinegard has 161 points. Chacone has 75. This junk. Does Chicone have a chance here? No, no. Not even if he gets into every breakaway.
- [48:01]
B
Yeah, but the Vingard is going to score points on those last. On those last mountaintop finishes. So that would mean that Chicono goes in the break, gets all the points and actually stays up front to score points on the last climb, which is going to be difficult.
- [48:18]
A
Yes. So I think.
- [48:20]
B
I think Jonas wins the mountains classification without trying to.
- [48:24]
A
So a Cat 1 climb is 40 points. A Cat 1 finishing climb is 50 points. So that's Jonas's big advantage. Like Tuesday's stage, you know, that's a Cat 1 climb. Finishing climb. It's probably not a breakaway. You look at stage 19, I think stage 19 could be a breakaway, potentially. That would be the one that's. That'd be where Chicone would win a stage, I think. And then maybe even probably not Bianca Valo, because that's two passes of a count, one climb. That going to be hard for a breakaway. All right, so. So your pick is.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah, but it's. You know what? At the same time, Spencer, it's the least of Yonas finger guard concerns, that blue jersey.
- [49:01]
A
Well, he's not even going to think about it.
- [49:03]
B
No, I mean, he doesn't have to try, but if he. If he doesn't get it, so what. I mean, it's fine.
- [49:09]
A
Is that a flaw in the. In the kom? It's never good when you have a. A rider that's not trying to win something and is winning it over riders that are trying and not winning.
- [49:19]
B
I mean, it's happened, I've seen many times also. Like, for example, you know what I mean? I don't know if they changed the. The system now, the point system, but, you know, there was a. There were many times in the Tour of Spain, for example, that the GC guys were also in the lead for the points jersey.
- [49:35]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah, that happens a lot. It's in Spain.
- [49:38]
B
Yeah. So, you know, those, those, obviously those other classifications. Maybe people should think about changing the system. And it's kind of strange to see them especially the mountains classification. Right. It happens a lot in Grand Tours, unless you have riders like Bogachar and Winkegaard, but it happens a lot that the KOM is won by somebody who's by far not the best climber on the Tour.
- [50:10]
A
And the Tour will do these things too. I mean, well, they'll do like double points for the highest point or something. So it's basically an HD climb with double points. So it's like, well, then whoever wins that is probably going to win the whole thing. Like, it's not really a competition over three weeks. What was your highlight from the second week, just personal highlight.
- [50:30]
B
Highlight. I feel, I mean there was not that much. I mean I think you know what the, the stage had BET yolo. I found that really entertaining. I think that was, that was pure, pure class, you could say. Okay, Ghana. We expected him to win. Didn't expect him to win with two minutes and the average speed of almost 56 kilometers per hour was incredible. Was it 56 or 55? 55. No,
- [51:02]
A
I thought it was 50.55.9.
- [51:05]
B
Okay, let me check. Okay. So that was obviously incredible, the performance.
- [51:10]
A
54.9. So yeah.
- [51:13]
B
So the performance of Finger Guard yesterday on the last climb was incredible. I. I think it really, I mean at least the way it looked. But I was really entertained with the breakaway of. Of you know, LE and Bet and those other three or four guys. And then I think that was. Yeah, that was a really entertaining stage.
- [51:35]
A
What's kind of funny about. I did think that was a great stage. So that stage and today just completely decoupled from the GC and. And tv. They would call this a bottle episode. So you have a season long arc. They don't do it as much anymore but they would have 22 episodes in a season and you'd have like episodes that are just completely decoupled from the greater narrative. And that's kind of what some of these stages have felt like. That is common in the second week of a grand tour. But sometimes it's a refresh. I find it to be a refreshing break. If you were building the sport from the ground up right now, you'd say that's stupid. Don't do that. Why, why would anyone watch? You'd be like a quarter of basketball. Like this one has no bearing on the final score. We're just going to play for fun. You say, oh, this is stupid. But today I was just, I was having a good time watching the race. Same thing with stage 13. It's just sometimes it's nice to get away from the tension of GC as a viewer. Which sounds ridiculous because why would we feel. Be feeling pressure or stress. But these tend to be my favorite stages as a viewer.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:34]
A
And who. So obviously I think my personal highlight was probably visma yesterday that was just. I just couldn't believe how well coordinated they were then. That's not even their best team for this type of stage. It just shows you the buy in guys have on that team. You know, like you're going to do this and you're going to feel like you're dying and. But you're Going to do it for the team, and they get. They get people to do it.
- [52:56]
B
That's what Tim Rex did.
- [52:58]
A
Yeah.
- [52:59]
B
Almost died. I mean, literally. No, that was a super performance. I don't think we can say we should be surprised. You know, we could see that. We could see that coming. And especially if you have a writer who's so good as Vingegaard in this race. So dominant. Everybody does the job to perfection almost. And, yeah, no, that was. That was an amazing performance.
- [53:29]
A
So Jonas had a pretty good week. Other than Jonas, who, like, who is your surprise in the gc and who do you think is best positioned going into week three? Obviously goes without saying, Jonas Finegaard in a great position, but outside of him,
- [53:45]
B
obviously, Olalio is still in second. I think nobody would have thought that after 15 stages. There's still a lot of hard stages to come, though. It's going to be not easy to. For him to stay there. But let's. You know, the other guys are also getting tired. I think Felix G. Is in pole position to be second in this Giro based on what we've seen, especially in climbing wise. And then I think the battle for the podium is going to be interesting. You know, we have Arensmann, we have Jay Hindley, Belize there.
- [54:22]
A
Belizari took a winding road, but he's here.
- [54:24]
B
Yeah.
- [54:25]
A
Made it where he was meant to be.
- [54:27]
B
I'm going to favor Jai Hindley for the podium. I think he looks good. He's usually pretty good in the last week. Looked good yesterday also. It doesn't really come to the attention so much because Jonas Wingard was so dominant. But I think. I think Hindley did a really good race yesterday, and I think the podium for me is going to be Jonas Wingard, Felix Gall, Jai Hindley, those three.
- [55:00]
A
I. Yeah, Jai Hindley, I thought, looked scary. I mean, he was pulling time back on Felix Gallery at the end of that stage. He looked. He looks very good. And if you are trying to get on the podium and you're not Jai Hindley, you're looking at that third week thinking, that looks pretty good for Jai Hindley and scary.
- [55:16]
B
And he's. He. And he's writing for a new contract, or. I mean, he may have signed one already, but, you know, he can only. He can only make it better with his performances. If he gets on the podium of the Giro, it's gonna up his value whether he has signed or not. He's gonna. He's gonna earn more money because of this third position.
- [55:37]
A
Is there tension in situations like that between someone Like Jai Henley and Piganzoli. And Piganzoli's thinking, I don't, I, like. You are not only my rival in this race, you're potentially my rival next year for leadership in races.
- [55:53]
B
No, absolutely not. Biganzoli, the, the young guy, I mean,
- [55:59]
A
you have a 16 year old. Do you think a young guy with this type of success. I can't wait to work for people. No. I'm the man. I'm the next Marco Bentani.
- [56:11]
B
No, no. There's no tension.
- [56:13]
A
I don't, there's, there's no egos in this sport.
- [56:16]
B
There is, there is, but absolutely not.
- [56:19]
A
I, I got, I got nervous when I saw him climbing in the drops.
- [56:23]
B
Spencer, we don't know if it's not confirmed if Hindley goes to Visma. Right. Those are the rumors. They might. They're most likely going to be true, but it's not been confirmed, so we don't.
- [56:35]
A
Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Cheers. As I've gotten older, one thing I've definitely noticed, drinking just hits different now. Sometimes it's a couple of drinks, the next morning you're feeling less than 100, your sleep is off and it kind of lingers in the next day. I've started paying more attention to it with my sleep tracker as well. And even a few drinks I can see really messes with my sleep quality. That's why I've started using Cheers Restore and I've noticed a big difference. I wake up feeling more normal than I expect. My sleep feels better and I'm not dragging in the morning, which is key. If you got a grand tour to cover every day, those can start to stack up and you feel terrible. So it's some, some would say it's harder than being in the race, being hungover trying to cover a race. And I, and I stand behind that. And what's going on is it helps your body process alcohol more efficiently while you sleep and support your liver at the same time. So instead of waking up feeling off, you just feel a lot closer to baseline. It's backed by doctors and PhDs. They've sold over 50 million doses. And honestly, it's become something I'll use anytime I know I'm gonna have a couple of drinks. Take Cheers Restore after your last drink before you go to bed and wake up feeling at least 50% better or your money back. For a limited time, our listeners are getting 20 off their entire order by using code move M O v e@cheershealth.com just head to cheershealth.com and use code MOVE M O V E for 20 off. After you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. Please say us so that we know they know we sent you. All right, thank you, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Henson Shaving. Here's something most people don't think about. Modern razors have actually trained us to press harder than we need to. And it's not your fault. It's a design problem. Most cartridge razors have springs and flexible blade mounts. The blade moves slightly mid stroke, the cutting angle shifts, and you get that tugging feeling. So naturally you press harder to compensate. But the more pressure means more friction, and that's where irritation comes from. Hints and razors work differently. They were designed by aerospace machinists in Canada, and instead of letting the blade flex and move around, they lock into a fixed, precise cutting angle. No springs, no pivots, just clean, consistent geometry that does exactly what it's supposed to do every single stroke. I've been using one. And outside of feeling like I'm in an episode of Mad Men with the blades, classy, old school design. Honestly, the biggest adjustment is just learning how little pressure you need. It's one of those things you have to experience to believe. And if you're a cyclist trying to keep those legs shaven, Henson's design is perfect. I've always had issues with my coarse leg hair clogging up traditional leg hair, face hair, whatever, it clogs up those traditional safety razors. But with Henson, I'm able to make quick work of my legs. And the shave quality is much more impressive than my old razor. I can't recommend it enough. And I'm never going back to standard razors. You can't make me. I'm never going back. And if you want to try it for yourself, Hinton is offering 100 free blades with a purchase of a razor. Just head to hintonshaving.com the move and use code. The move at checkout that's Henson. H E N s o n shaving.com the move at checkout I think he probably goes to Visma. The funny thing about that is the rumor can sometimes make it not true. Because now if he does well, let's say finishes on the podium, let's say he finishes second, and then his value gets too high. Everyone says, well, he's going to Visma, and they give him a better offer. And then Visma can't afford him anymore. Like that could. That could happen. He could write himself out of his Contract with Visma. And then who. Who do you think is going to. So you think the final GC is Jonas Field skull Jai Hindley?
- [59:51]
B
Yeah, that's what I think.
- [59:54]
A
And where do you think Ulalio finishes up?
- [59:58]
B
Fourth or fifth?
- [60:01]
A
Should more teams. Based on what we saw today, all these breakaways staying away, the fact that Eulalio is probably going to finish top five at this race, should people think about breakaways in the first week differently?
- [60:15]
B
It's not going to be easy for top five.
- [60:18]
A
You know, actually look at top 10, and it's not so easy.
- [60:24]
B
May actually catch him. I think, you know, he's kind of the only writer who. Who's not been in this situation. He may slip. He may slip. But, I mean, listen, he's going to do a great year. I mean, he already had a great Giro, and now, you know, no more pressure. It can go both ways. But I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna put him out of the top five. I'm gonna say Ironsman and Pilizadi are completing the top five.
- [60:54]
A
So I'm gonna list who's below him, and you tell me who he's safe from. Felix Gaul. I assume that's a no. Ahrensman,
- [61:02]
B
how far is he behind?
- [61:03]
A
34. Sorry. 37 seconds.
- [61:06]
B
No.
- [61:07]
A
Jai Henley.
- [61:08]
B
Nope.
- [61:10]
A
Pilizar is two minutes behind.
- [61:13]
B
Probably we'll pass him.
- [61:16]
A
Michael Storr is 1, 220 behind.
- [61:21]
B
Store is tough. Tough guy. You know, he's. That's his position there. Six, seven. You know that. So he's. It's gonna be this. He's gonna be up there, stir. I mean, he may stay ahead of stir.
- [61:34]
A
And then o' Connor is three minutes behind him.
- [61:37]
B
No, Connor's cooked. I think the only thing is.
- [61:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then Derek, probably. Derek G. West, he is over three minutes behind Ulalio. He's probably safe from him because he's climbing better than him.
- [61:52]
B
Three minutes is nothing. With the stages we still have.
- [61:55]
A
It's. It's nothing. Assuming the person is a good climber. And it doesn't look like Derek G. West is climbing that well at the moment.
- [62:01]
B
I mean, he's not bad.
- [62:06]
A
The problem is he's not taking time back on him or significant time.
- [62:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And today was also, you know, that. The fact that he had to come as a. Let me say. Oh, you know what? Let's maybe forget a little bit about D.C. i mean, it was not a big effort, a long effort. Tomorrow's rest day, so it doesn't matter that much, but you know, if he would have been in fight for the podium. Derek G. Does not take those pulls today.
- [62:34]
A
No, no. I mean that was like true desperation and he kind of knew that it wasn't, it was already probably like unless Derek g. Can do 65k an hour for 45 minutes, probably not going to pull those guys back. P. Gonzola and then you have like P. Gonzoli and Rondell. I don't think they're gonna catch him.
- [62:53]
B
Probably not.
- [62:53]
A
So should more. You know, if we went back and watched this first week we'd say wow, teams are really being flippant a lot about opportunities. Like think back to stage two with that. Sorry, Stage three, that breakaway almost makes it. You're like, well, should more teams be up here trying to win stages in non sprint fashion? And then Ulalio on stage six is when he took the time. I believe should more, I guess more capable climbers think about doing that versus sitting around waiting to lose time. The tricky thing is you don't know you're about to. You don't know you're going to lose time in the future I guess would be the push back. But.
- [63:31]
B
Yeah, but riders, for example, are you talking about, for example, are you talking about Derek G. And, and Ben o'? Connor?
- [63:37]
A
No, no, they're too high profile. It'd be like, you know, like Rondell. But is he learning? Is it so valuable for him to ride the way he's riding?
- [63:49]
B
You know what, Spencer? It's not. Okay, you make it sound simple and you know, but, but it's not easy to get in these breakaways, man. You know, you have to be really, really good. And some of those climbers actually sometimes don't have the power to go in those breakaways. They're. They come to the front when it's their terrain. But in order to get in the break like that, you need to be really strong and be able to empty yourself for like 5, 10 minutes and then recover from it for, you know, to be able to hang on and have a possibility to win the stage. So it's not as. It's not easy to get in breakaways. At least not those breakaways that were really, you know, on those hard stages. Like the stage is not vice one. The stage that Arieta won, the stage that Betio won. Those are hard fought breakaways, man. It's, it's difficult to get in though in there.
- [64:44]
A
You're probably right that a lot, I'm overestimating a lot of these because that is a lot of especially stage the stage Arietta 1, if you go back, it is extreme power to get into that move. Guys are just getting punched out of there. But if you go back to stage three, just in terms of stage wins. Are teams too flippant about these breakaway opportunities? Early in Grand Tours, there was essentially no contest for any breakaway in Bulgaria. Is that a mistake in retrospect?
- [65:13]
B
No, no, because at that point in the race, you know, teams are still complete, everybody's still fresh. They're going to bring, they're going to bring it back. You know, nothing has happened yet in terms of, you know, physical destruction of a team. Today it's a different game. Right. You can see that they were desperate and they just didn't have it. But in stage three, no, I mean, sprinter teams are gonna do what they have to do and you don't have much of a chance.
- [65:47]
A
And then what do you think? Who's your biggest I, I? Yeah, that is a good point. It's hard. It's hard when the fatigue isn't there. What's gonna be the biggest GC surprise in this third week? We should. I can tell you the stages if that helps. If you wanna hear that. So we have really a goofy stage on Tuesday. Like a goofy in a good way. 113 km is a summit finish and whole stage takes place in Switzerland and it's a hard summit finish. 8% at 11 and a half K. We'll. We'll get your take on who's going to win that in a second. And then you have stage 17, 202k over mountains, probably a breakaway and then finishes uphill. So that make. Even if you get in the breakaway, it's a 7% 2 1/2 kilometer climb to the finish. So not so easy to win that. Stage 18 is kind of the most interesting in terms of. Could it be a sprint stage? Could it not be a sprint stage? It's a rolling flat finish, but there is a steep climb, 10-15k before the finish. So do you are. If you're a sprinter, do you just get dropped there? That would not be great. Stage 19 brutal. Brutal. Dolomites Mountain Stage 151K 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 categorized climb including the pass out. Joao, which is the highest point of this race? 2300 meters. Basically. Stage 20 is a stage in Fruli. It has one mountain, Piancaballo, but they do it twice and it's 14 and a half kilometers long at 8%. So it's kind of similar to the Monte Grappa stage on in 2024 on stage 20 that Picacho won. And then stage 21 is sprint stage in Rome, presumably, unless it's a breakaway. But what do you think the biggest GC surprise is going to be?
- [67:33]
B
I don't think we're going to see. I mean, the only thing. I mean, the only thing we can hope for is that Hindley and Belizari improve a little bit. I mean, they've been struggling a bit, especially Pilizzi. Other than that, I don't think Felix Gal is going to fade. I mean, he's not going to be able to stay with Jonas, but. But he's. He's ahead of everybody else. You could see Hindley's coming a bit closer to go. That's, that's hopeful. But in GC surprises, I don't see any. I don't see any. Maybe. I mean, I don't know. He said maybe. Biganzoli in the top 10, if you can call that a surprise. That could be. But, you know, he said that that's not an objective, so probably not. I don't know. I mean, if you're talking about 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th, you can't. I mean, that's, that's really open. Right? I mean, it's, it's. It's hard to be six, seven or eight in a Grand Tour. Don't get me wrong. Many riders would love to be in the top 10 in the Grand Tour, but it's also, you know, once you're off the podium, especially once you're out of the top five, not many people care anymore, right, about seventh, eighth or ninth position. I mean, people. The public doesn't know. I mean, if, If I ask you who was sixth in the Tour de France last year?
- [68:55]
A
I know. Yeah.
- [68:57]
B
Isn't that funny that I don't know?
- [68:59]
A
No, I will not know. I. I would say Kevin Vauclan, just. I would just guess that. But he might have been fifth or something. Actually, I don't know. Jordy J. Gott and Kevin Vauclan. That's the only two guys I know below five.
- [69:12]
B
Was. Was Gal not fifth last year?
- [69:15]
A
Gaul was fifth. You're right. Who was fourth?
- [69:18]
B
Oscar only.
- [69:20]
A
Yeah. Onley Gaul, who was sixth,
- [69:26]
B
could be Vauclair. I'm not sure.
- [69:27]
A
I think teams and writers do care about that a lot.
- [69:30]
B
Oh, yeah. Especially the people who know it most is the writer and his fans and his family. Right?
- [69:36]
A
Yeah.
- [69:37]
B
But I mean, I mean, I remember like, once I was. Once I was seven in the Tour de France. Right. I mean, for me it was, it was an incredible performance and you know, my family and my whole village, I got received at the village, you know, when I got back from Paris. And nobody else knows about this, who. Nobody knows. Right. But it's still a big accomplishment for an athlete, especially if it's somebody who is not expected to be there. But I don't know, I don't see any, any big surprises. You know, usually after two weeks, Spencer, the cards are played and everybody. You will constantly see the same five, six riders who are the strongest in the mountains. Maybe there's a little bit of shuffling for fifth, sixth or seventh, but top three, top four, that's kind of done. We're going to see more of the same now in the mountain stages.
- [70:34]
A
Well, here, now this is kind of interesting. So yeah, Gaul's fifth, Tobias Holland. Johansson six at the Tour de France last year. That's a big result for that guy.
- [70:42]
B
Kevin Vaughan.
- [70:44]
A
That's a big result. Roglich eighth, not a big result. Healy ninth. That's a big result for him. Jordan J got is a big result. So these guys are going to fight hard for it. So this is Johan. I thought the same thing. Then I went back and I started watching Old Zeros. 2016 Stephen Kreuzwick's running away with it. Vincenzo Nibali makes up minutes, minutes in the last few stages we did not see that coming. Croiswick goes into a snowbank, loses the race. Shocking. Didn't see that coming. Stage 17 Dumalon has it wrapped up with a bow. Oh, he has to pull over and poop at the bottom of the, of the Stelvio. Terrible timing. He still won right one, but by seconds. You know, it was a sub minute win because of that and it was pretty touch and go. Like he wins that overall by 31 seconds.
- [71:35]
B
Oh wow.
- [71:35]
A
You know, and he, he lost a lot of time when he lost me.
- [71:38]
B
Who was second? I don't know. Was. Could it be Naido Quintana? I don't, I'm not sure.
- [71:43]
A
You know, you could just. Yeah, you could say Quintana for any grand tour between 2010 and 2020 and you'd probably be right. But yes, he was second, was third. 2018 Simon Yates as it wrapped up that actually very controlled race. If you talk about a race that with no breakaways and probably a mistake in retrospect. Who was Jacob? They weren't. Maybe they were some other name at the time, but they just had that thing on a tight leash. Chris Froome, solo breakaway, comes from behind. And wins. We don't see that one coming. I was shocked, shocked by that. 2019, Richard Carapas wins over Nibali and Roglich. Kind of unexpected, but he was super strong. We saw that one coming in the third week. Teo Gegenhardt, 2020. Comes out of nowhere to win that race in the third week. He was. You go back to 2020 stage. I'm just going to pull up stage where we are right now. Stage 15, Tao Gert is three minutes behind Schwal in race, goes on to win it.
- [72:44]
B
You know who got second? You know who got second in. In that Giro?
- [72:48]
A
Wilo Kelderman did.
- [72:50]
B
And. And third, Jai Henley. Henley, exactly.
- [72:55]
A
And then it just continues too.
- [72:57]
B
Yeah.
- [72:57]
A
2021, Eagerman all wins. That's pretty textbook. 2022, Jai Hindley wins in the. On stage 20. Technically kind of surprising, but the signs were there. Primus Raglitz, 2023. He wins by 14 seconds. Stage 20. But again, the signs were kind of there. 2024, no surprises, but got your wins. 2025. Last year, Simon Yates comes from left field to win that thing on stage. Yeah, the history would suggest it's not wrapped up. And what's funny is the Giro is kind of the only one of the Grand Tours like this in recent years.
- [73:33]
B
But Spencer, I mean, I think this, this, you can't compare, first of all, because we have. Except pcar. We have the strongest stage racer of the last five, six years, the Grand Tour racer. Plus the competition is not. Not anywhere. I mean, they are not a threat for you on us. They're not in the same league. You know, if you look at. You can say, okay, Simon Yates got a pass del Toro last year. You know, you. You can't really say, okay, this guy is like, who's one level ahead of the other guys? You know, Crosswake was about to win. Nibali was a better Ground Tour rider. Unfortunately, it was because of a crash. If you look at. Was it. Was it when Froome won, Was it. It was Simon Yates. Right. Who was. Who was in the lead? Yeah, I was in. Yeah, he was in.
- [74:27]
A
Yeah. But what's funny is with. He did leapfrog. He leapfrogged Dumalon, too. So it wasn't just Simon Yates falling apart.
- [74:35]
B
Yeah.
- [74:37]
A
2026.
- [74:38]
B
Room is from. From was a big champion. I mean, he's won it four times. I mean, it's not. It's not like. So in this Giro, Spencer, that's. We're not going to see a scenario like that. At least not for the win. We could see something like that for the podium. I'm not saying that that could not happen, but not for the win. You know, I guess we're going to talk about stage six, stage 16, you know, on, on Tuesday, I think, but
- [75:06]
A
here, this is crazy. So stage at the end of stage 18 in 2016, Vincenzo Nibali, we remember him winning from the crash. He was fourth place. There's two other riders that are not Stephen Kruswick, he's 4 minutes 43 seconds down at the end of stage 18 and he wins that race. Yeah, like that. Yeah, just Snipes, Chavez and Valverde. Pretty impressive in retrospect. But yeah, stage 16 on Tuesday is a goofy stage out of a rest. It's going to be fast, it's going to be hard because there's one super
- [75:39]
B
hard to, you know, 100, 113 kilometers
- [75:43]
A
only with five categorized climbs five times.
- [75:47]
B
And especially the last climb, you know, 11.7 kilometers, 8% hard climb. And then especially the last one and a half kilometer, it's constantly around 10% with some parts at 13%. So GC Day, it's a, it's short. I think Visma is going to do the same, the same strategy. You know, they're strong enough and I think that Jonas can comfortably look what happens on the last climb and could in theory, with a relatively short effort in the last one and a half, two kilometers, take another 30, 40 seconds and just wrap it up and then say, okay, guys, now you guys fight for it. I'll just stay close to my big rivals.
- [76:33]
A
I've worked out a deal. RCS is letting me leave. Actually, they're gonna let me just skip the final few st. Yeah, I think you're right. I think, I mean, here I, I agree with you. I think, yeah, it's going to win. Let's talk about what scenarios happen where he does not win this breakaway. Yeah, but where's a break? Yeah, yeah, that's the only way.
- [76:54]
B
If it's, if it's a fight for dc, then there's nobody beating him.
- [76:58]
A
And I know we just, we just opined about how the breakaways are dominating this race, but where does a breakaway.
- [77:04]
B
Yeah, I mean, but on stages like
- [77:05]
A
this, Spencer's 113k long. I mean, I don't know even know where they would build up the time, especially Spencer.
- [77:10]
B
If you see the strength of Visma on yesterday's stage, you know, how much damage they were doing on the last climb and how very few people could stay with. I mean, when Piganzoli pulled off what was. There was seven riders, eight riders left maximum, and three of them were hanging on for like dear life. I think Visma can control this stage perfectly. There's not that much. There's not that. But it's the day after rest day. Okay, but you know, you don't, you don't all of a sudden magically get a lot of new energy after the rest day. So there's not many guys anymore who can go in breakaways that are dangerous. That's the only way Jonas Vingegaard doesn't win the stage. If there's a breakaway. And Visma decides voluntarily to let it go and not kill. And they can, they can do that. I mean, they don't have to win the stage. You know
- [78:09]
A
that. I mean, that would be the downside that you bet on Jonas. The odds are not out yet, but I'll probably bet on Jonas.
- [78:16]
B
You know what, Spencer? I mean, if you look right, I mean, if there's a breakaway, first of all, the amount of, I mean, it's five climbs. It's going to be fast for the breakaway and for the peloton. The difference here is that for this stage, Visma is not going to get any more help. Now, until now, they still got the help from Bahrain. Right. Because until yesterday, Alalia was still in pink. That's done. Now Bahrain is not going to pull anymore. Now, I mean, unless they're stupid, but I don't think so.
- [78:53]
A
That would be something else to watch or whatever.
- [78:57]
B
I mean, if we see that there might have been an agreement saying, hey, you know what, we let you guys have this, this pink jersey for nine days, but you keep helping us. Makes no sense. But. So the thing is with a, with a climb like this at the end, the hardest climb of the whole stage, 11.7 kilometers at 8%. The breakaway needs to have three more than three minutes at the bottom of the climb.
- [79:22]
A
Maybe four or five.
- [79:23]
B
Yeah. Depending on who's there. Right. Because 8% average, man, that's not an easy climb. You know, that's.
- [79:31]
A
I mean, how long is this, this climb is going to be a 40 minute long climb.
- [79:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a lot. Yeah. So, yeah, three, four minutes.
- [79:41]
A
And then think how, how long have they been racing by the time they get to the bottom?
- [79:45]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [79:46]
A
Two and a half hours.
- [79:50]
B
What's the elevation of the stage?
- [79:53]
A
Well, it's, it's a lot of elevation. It's three, it's 3,000 meters. But the final climb is basically two thirds of that
- [80:05]
B
must be the last. Must be 900 meters elevation. No, if it's 11 more kilometers at
- [80:13]
A
8%, what finishes at 1645 and it starts. Yeah. Around 400. So just a little bit more than here. I have like a. Yeah.
- [80:27]
B
Anyway, probably more than 11.7km then. Because if you guess.
- [80:32]
A
Yeah. They're not counting like the, the roll into it, you know.
- [80:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. If you have 11.7 kilometers, 8%, that's probably like, I mean 900 meters of elevation.
- [80:43]
A
That's what, that's why the metric system is great. So I'm just going to say the last 30k of the stage, they gained
- [80:48]
B
the only system, Spencer. Only system. You guys with your miles and your feet and this and that. It's such a mess.
- [80:57]
A
I mean the Nate Bargazzi we have met.
- [80:59]
B
We have meters, kilometers, kilograms, grams.
- [81:03]
A
You know, it's super, super simple too, too confusing. I mean, how many, how many meters are in a kilometer? No one knows.
- [81:10]
B
1,000. It's how many. Okay, here's, here's, here's a question for you. Answer. So you, you count in miles, right? A mile.
- [81:18]
A
Yeah.
- [81:18]
B
What's, what's the next, what's the, what's the next smaller unit of measurement? Is it yards?
- [81:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, it would be a yard, I guess.
- [81:27]
B
How many yards are in one mile?
- [81:30]
A
Oh my God. I don't even think I know.
- [81:32]
B
If you don't know that answer, then your system is fucked up.
- [81:35]
A
Well, I mean, what, there's 50 to 5,280ft in a mile and then there's something like three feet in a yard. Something like that.
- [81:44]
B
And in which universe does that make sense, this kind of way of measuring?
- [81:49]
A
I will say in our defense, there's 1760 yards in a mile. We didn't come up with this.
- [81:56]
B
We didn't.
- [81:56]
A
This is the British.
- [81:58]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [81:59]
A
And then they switch on us. What the heck. So in the last 30k of the stage they gained basically 1500 meters so that you're gonna see time starting to come back like they. So the first 92 90k of the stage is 1500 meter of elevation, which is a lot. But that's, you know, they're gonna cover that in, you know what, two and a half hours probably. And you're like, how much time could you possibly have built up over that? I think Jonas Venegard as well. I think Jonas wins. And I think he, as you said yesterday, he just, the, the class is higher. He's just at a higher class than the rest of these guys.
- [82:43]
B
Yeah, different different league.
- [82:45]
A
Nothing they can do on a stage like tomorrow. Tomorrow is the perfect stage for him. I don't think it's going to be a breakaway. You have anything else, Johan, for tomorrow's
- [82:53]
B
stage for Tuesday stage tomorrow we have. Oh yeah, we have a rest day, right?
- [82:59]
A
Yeah, tomorrow. Who, who, who knows when someone's listening to this? Yeah, Tuesday's stage. Tuesday before the last week of the year.
- [83:07]
B
Are you going to have a ride? Are you gonna, Are you gonna ride on a rest day?
- [83:10]
A
Well, here's a beautiful, beautiful thing about tomorrow. Monday in the US is holiday. So the kids are home, so not really a day off at all. Oh, I'll try to ride.
- [83:19]
B
Okay. So I need to, I need to push it tomorrow. I'm Spencer. I don't want to sound too negative but man, I'm, I'm taking advantage in our, in our challenge. You know, on our yearly or yearly miles battle. Kilometer battle.
- [83:37]
A
I'm even wondering if I, I might give up riding. But that's, that's another, that's a subplot for, for a non grand tour day. Like, is riding the dumbest thing ever? Like we go out, oh, don't worry, hun. I could get hit by a car and die. I'm like, what are we doing? This is stupid. Should we not be riding our bikes?
- [83:56]
B
Yeah, I rode today and I'm going to ride tomorrow, so. All right, I hope you do the thing.
- [84:02]
A
How far are you going to go tomorrow?
- [84:04]
B
Not so, I mean maybe like 90k. 90k? Probably.
- [84:08]
A
Nice.
- [84:09]
B
Yeah.
- [84:10]
A
All right, well, Johan, we'll be back on Tuesday to break down probably a straightforward mountain stage, but as I said, the G and you never know what's going to happen. So we'll see how it plays out. Talk to you later.
- [84:22]
B
Like the Italians would say, we will see.
- [84:25]
A
We will see. The move is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
- [85:01]
C
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