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- [00:00]
Johan Bernal
The most important race right now Spencer is the race for second, third and fourth. Right, that's, that's really still close. You know if you look at the time differences between what is it? Felix Gall is 403, Arensmann is 24 seconds behind him only and then Jai
- [00:19]
Spencer Martin
Hindley is less than a minute 33 seconds behind Arens. So it's really close.
- [00:25]
Johan Bernal
I think Eulalio we should be you know realistic and count that he's not in contention for the, for the podium. But those three are. One of them is going to fall off the podium.
- [00:39]
Spencer Martin
Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernal. We are breaking down stage 16 of the Giro d' Italia summit finish in Switzerland and the Ticino Canton of Switzerland. Perhaps Italian speaking Jonas Vindo, we're going to start calling him by his real name at this point. 16 stages in because he, because he's earned it. He, he's winning every uphill finishes up uphill finish wins the Summit finish by 109 over Felix G. With Jai Hindley coming in 1 minute 11 seconds down time. And Aaron's been getting tailed off a little in the sprint at 114 down he now leads the overall by 4 minutes 3 seconds over Felix G. This was a like an important nail in the coffin for him. Now he's, he's gone from the 2 1/2 minute territory to 4 plus minute territory. Johan Hard seems hard for him to lose it now. Tyman Aaron's been his third at 427 back. Jai Hindley five minutes back and our former race leader Alfonso ulalio still in fifth at 5:40 down he, he got dropped early Ish on the climb finished three minutes behind Vindego which is not awful actually pretty impressive performance for him. It was a hot day, hard day. 2 hours 57 minutes of racing through the mountains. So short, explosive stage, average speed of 38 kilometers an hour. Really difficult. There was a breakaway away early. It was hard for them to get away on the flat. Ciccone forced things when they got to the first climb the Move. The big names in the Move were Julio Ciccone, Jonathan Narvaez, Chris Harper, Einar Rubio, Diego Ulisi. Navajo picks up max points at the intermediate sprint, getting within a few points of Paul Monier and the intermediate classification. Decathlon started a pace on the final climb. At the bottom of the final climb after Visma kept the leash incredibly tight on the breakaway around two minutes Red Bull comes forward. Julio Pelizari was dropped as soon as that happened. So they must have known he wasn't good and wasn't going to play into the gc. But then Visma got to work on the front. Victor Campinard comes forward. Sepkus comes forward for not a super long poll. I'll ask you about that later, Johan. And then Davide Piganzoli looks breakout star of this Euro. Sets up Vindergaard, Vindigo. He attacks with 6k to go and we don't see him again. And I mean right now I think. What did you say the other day? He just looks better than everybody else. I would. That would be my takeaway from today. But what is yours, Johan?
- [02:57]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, I mean, my take is the same. Spencer. It's the domination of Jonas and Visma. Today's stage, it was very clear 113km. As soon as this breakaway went and we saw Visma keeping it under two minutes, they wanted to win the stage. After. After the stage, we heard in both interviews of Pigazzoli and Jonas that their goal was to win the stage in pink jersey, which, you know, obviously a stage like this at 113 kilometer stage with the team they have, it's probably the best possible scenario to keep things under control with that strength on the team. Right. Again, an impressive performance of the whole team. Again, Team Rex was impressive. Bart Lehman, Victor Campenaerts, I mean, anybody, Timo Kilik. And then finally we had Kus and Piganzoli. But I think the most impressive thing was that Jonas, when Jonas went again, didn't go straight away out of the saddle, attacked in the saddle again. And especially the difference in speed. Spencer nobody, I mean, Felix Gall, I don't know if he even tried, you know, I mean, he did try to accelerate, but still, what was he, 50 meters on the wheel? Not even that.
- [04:14]
Spencer Martin
He looked more in line with the other guys today than with, you know, before this. It's been Jonas Gaul and then today he, I mean, he literally fell back to those guys that were chasing.
- [04:24]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think what was really impressive, Spencer, is that when. When Company Arts was pulling so he was the. Their fourth guy, right? I mean, they had four guys left. So, you know, when you can really see in Visma, okay, we know it's a strong team, but you know, the power of the leader's jersey is within the whole team of Visma. You know, you have Campenaerts, Kuspi, Gonzoli together with Jonas, while the majority of the rest of the riders of that first group, they Were already in the hurtbox, you know, when Kampenards was pulling, I guess who was. Eulalio and o' Connor were, were, were dropped already, you know. So those, those are initially, I mean two good climbers. When you, if you see that, you can only expect what's going to happen next, you know, when, then when K takes over, obviously the speed is higher, there's less people. And then when, when Piganzoli. I think if you look at the way this is set up, you know, I personally thought that Jonas would attack a little later, but if you see the reduced group when Piganzoli was pulling, you know, let's not forget that until now. Until today, Piganzoli in certain mountain stages has been the third best climber. He was the only guy who was able to stay for a while with Felix Gal, who's the second best climber in this race for the moment. And if you look at, you know, Piganzoli was pulling, you see Jonas in his wheel, his face is not even, you know, not even moving. And then you see the faces of the other guys. Gal today had to suffer face on. Yeah, Hindley also Armsman, I mean Arsman, his style already always looks suffering. But anyways, you could see that when you're, when you're, when you're, when your last rider, Pig Anzoli is pulling, that already puts your three next rivals in the hurtbox. So it's a simple math exercise, you know, I mean as soon as Pig Anzoli pulls off, Jonas accelerates and everybody else had to stay at their pace. I think the domination, the domination is, is the big takeaway. Not a surprise, as expected, I would say.
- [06:37]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, and I mean the whole thing like they, they were pacing hard all day. I mean you can imagine a two, a sub three hour stage in a grand tour. Kind of hard to wrap your head around that. But the pace must have been relentless. Like to hold a breakaway. Think how hard the breakaway is going. Every time they showed Narvaez his power is around 450 watts and he's not a big guy to hold that gap like Tim Rex on the front was, was killing himself halfway through the stage. So they are asking a lot of these guys, do you what do you think the strategy is from here on out? He has a 4 minute 3 second lead. Does he go for more stage wins? Does he just take them if they come? Like what does Visma do from here?
- [07:14]
Johan Bernal
I mean, you know, I think they're going to at least go for one more stage win, you know, The. The. There's still two really, really big mountain stages. One of them could potentially be a breakaway, but I think. Which one is it with. With Paso Diao.
- [07:35]
Spencer Martin
19. Yeah.
- [07:36]
Johan Bernal
And that's a mountaintop finish also, right? Yeah, yeah, I think that one. And then, yeah, Bianca Valo is. It's not the same stage as Bianca Vallo. That's stage 20, right? Yeah.
- [07:47]
Spencer Martin
So night 19 is like a true Dolomites mountain stage. It's actually 10 average uphill finish. And then.
- [07:52]
Johan Bernal
Okay, that's another one for Jona.
- [07:55]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, stage 20. I. I don't know, actually, because it's a long flat and then double ascent of Pian Cavalo. Yeah, the finish line.
- [08:02]
Johan Bernal
Anyway, you know, the thing is, they don't have to. You know, they don't have to do anything. He's comfortably in the lead, nobody getting even close. So they can just control. Personally, that's what I would do as the team manager. But, you know, times have changed. Of course, I don't know how much pride or ego is there, you know, because now they're starting. I mean, it's ridiculous, actually. But, you know, they say, ah, you know, won six stages, you also want to win six stages. You know, you shouldn't care. You just have to win the Giro.
- [08:34]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, I agree.
- [08:35]
Johan Bernal
I mean, it's, It's, It's. It's. It's a nice situation to be in. Like, you know, you're. You're 16 stages. What is it? Was it six? Stage 16 today? Yeah, stage. Yeah. Uh, so there's still five stages to come, and you can already start to think about the Tour de France right now.
- [08:53]
Spencer Martin
Yep. Yeah.
- [08:54]
Johan Bernal
Let's do as. As. As less as possible. Or not just. Not just Jonas, but also Campenaerts and Sepp Kuss, who will be part of the Tour team. So it's a really nice position to be in. I would recommend they do that. They think about that. They try to spare as much possible forces. Even if they feel amazing right now. You know, it doesn't matter. You don't need to win any stages anymore. But, yeah, I mean, I think. I think they will just keep controlling and they at least win one more stage and then. Yeah, let's see. Let's see. For the rest of the Giro, if there's breakaways, the most important race right now, Spencer, is the race for second, third and fourth. Right. That's. That's really still close. You know, if you look at the time differences between. What is it? Felix G is 403. Arman is 24 seconds behind him only. And then Jai Hindley is less than
- [09:55]
Spencer Martin
a minute, 33 seconds behind AR. So it's really close.
- [09:59]
Johan Bernal
I think we should be, you know, realistic and count that he's not in contention for the, for the podium, but those three are. One of them is going to fall off the podium. You know, Arnsman and Hindley look pretty good today, I have to say. You know, Go doesn't look that dominant anymore compared to where he was before. So I don't know. I mean, I still think he, you know, it's. They still have to drop him, of course, but it's going to be an interesting and interesting reaction race for, for, for the podium. That's. That. That's. I think that's the most exciting part. And then what else do we have? We have the Kom. That's still in play. But anyways, I think it's going to be Jonas.
- [10:45]
Spencer Martin
It's really the points jersey is the most interesting jersey race right now. 145Paul Manier to 143Narvaez.
- [10:52]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So tomorrow is going to be an interesting stage for that because Narvaeis is probably going to try to go in the break and he will be in the break probably. And Paul Magnier can't be in the break.
- [11:03]
Spencer Martin
Yeah.
- [11:04]
Johan Bernal
So tomorrow we. We might see another. Another shift. So Magne is still in many. Still in Chiclamino. No. Right.
- [11:10]
Spencer Martin
Yeah. By two points.
- [11:11]
Johan Bernal
Okay. Tomorrow we probably will have a change again.
- [11:15]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, I would, I would anticipate Narvaez takes it tomorrow. The. It actually is tougher than you think. I was doing the math on this because if Monier wins the final stage, he gets 50 points. So Narvaez is going to have to pick up probably three stages of intermediate sprints, plus top three, a stage, you know, to even be up there.
- [11:35]
Johan Bernal
So it's probably winning the last stage.
- [11:39]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, we should say that it probably most likely does not win the final stage. Let's see. And here's where it gets really interesting. So first place is 50 points. Second place only 35. Third place, 25. So if he gets third, Narvaez is going to win this. So, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm loving this points jersey classification.
- [11:59]
Johan Bernal
I mean, you know, the race is within the race. Right. So I think that's what we have to look for now. I mean, you know, good for Visma, good for Jonas. But unfortunately for us fans, the race for GC for the first place is long over again. Jonas, today Looked exactly the same. Like the other day. He was time traveling up the mountain, looked completely in control, had to suffer, face on a little bit. I don't know if that's real. I mean, I think.
- [12:27]
Spencer Martin
I mean, he was pushing huge numbers on the funnel climb, so I would hope he was suffering.
- [12:31]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah. But, but, but this is not his limit, you know, I think. I think he's not at his limit yet. So, yeah, not so good for. For everybody else. Who. But you could. You could clearly hear also in the interviews, Felix Gall. Who was it? Felix Gao. And I don't know who the other one was, if it was Hindley or Arnsman. They just said, you know, there's nothing. It's nothing we can do. Jonas is just in a league on his own. His team is extremely strong. We just need to ride our own pace as fast as possible to the top of the climb and then see who's the best of the rest. That's the situation right now. That's the atmosphere, and that's the motivation of those other guys.
- [13:15]
Spencer Martin
Yeah. And I. Do you think. I. I kind of feel like he is. If you remember back to 2024, Tadipogatra didn't ride a single kilometer outside of his comfort zone. Basically, he was training. He was getting paid a lot of money to train for the Tour de France. It's kind of the same thing with Jonas. Right? Like, he's not, you know, he did an effort on the final climb today, but you'd have to be riding hard and training at some point. He's essentially just here training and then happens to be winning the race.
- [13:43]
Johan Bernal
Well, yeah, it's. It's. I think it's a bit. It's a bit simplifying, you know, It's. It's still hard, right? It's still hard.
- [13:50]
Spencer Martin
Well, I mean, these training camps are super hard too, you know.
- [13:53]
Johan Bernal
I know, but it's not three weeks after each other, you know, these consecutive efforts. But it's.
- [13:58]
Spencer Martin
And you're in a different hotel every night. Right. Like, that's got to add.
- [14:01]
Johan Bernal
It's great training for the system to, you know, to train how to recover, especially if you're not at your absolute maximum. So I think it's. Yeah, it's a really good, very intense training camp for him.
- [14:14]
Spencer Martin
And then I was thinking about this on the rest day. So y. Let's just say Tadipaga, he's a. He's a barista in Ljubljana. He never rides a bike. Jonas Fendergaard would have won.
- [14:25]
Johan Bernal
He.
- [14:26]
Spencer Martin
He would have in his pocket 5 Tour de France victories, he'd be cruising to this Euro win. He'd be going to the Tour to win his sixth Tour de France. He would. So he'd have five Tours, a Giro of Vuelta, and he would have won Paris, Toreno, Catalonia, Basque country, multiple Dofanat.
- [14:48]
Johan Bernal
Like he.
- [14:49]
Spencer Martin
We would say this is the best guy stage racer we've ever seen, right?
- [14:53]
Johan Bernal
Yep. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he is the second best stage racer taking, I mean, after Tarepo Gachar. But yeah, unfortunately for him, there's, you know, there's Tadepogachar. Let's see. You know, we're, we're always comparing, Right. And especially when they're not racing together, we're always, I mean, any race we're talking about, Spencer, where it is one or the other, we end up talking about the Tour de France. Every, every podcast which is telling about cycling, how important the Tour is and how, you know, secondary the other races are. But yeah, I mean, listen, for Jonas, listen, already having the Palmares he has in the era of Bogachar is already impressive. You know, that's not, I mean, not a lot of people can say that.
- [15:41]
Spencer Martin
No, no, no. He will have beat him at least two times in the Tour de France. That's going to seem ridiculous in the future. People are going to say, how did that happen? It's also funny how the presence of one person can completely shape the perception of another writer. It's the same thing with.
- [15:55]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, but it's the same. I mean, it's been the same for, for years, for ages. Spencer. You know, look, if, I mean, if you would. I mean, when Bernard, he know was there, there was so many good writers who got second. When Eddie Merckx in the ride mean, you know, a guy like Johnny Buno, imagine what Johnny would have won if Inder did not exist. You know, it didn't race. So when Chris from appeared, you know, Quintana, Contador, others, I mean, they would have, I mean they would have won the Tour. So, you know, there's always these riders who appear and they are super dominant. So we are, I think we're lucky to see this ourselves. This domination. Some people say it's boring. But listen, I think, I think a sport is really nice and fair if it's the strongest guy who wins. I like that.
- [16:57]
Spencer Martin
It is good. Also, Chris Froom's lucky he didn't have to go against Jon Spin Guard. Also, it's. What's crazy to think about is if Chris Frim's not around, which he almost, I mean, didn't make it into professional cycling. Roman Bardet wins a Tour de France and we think of, oh, wow, what a. Like what? He's the French savior. But yeah, he just, he doesn't, he gets second instead and you don't think about him the same way.
- [17:17]
Johan Bernal
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Spencer Martin
Few other things I was going to ask you about. So Sep Kuss is doing the Tour of France, correct?
- [17:22]
Johan Bernal
Yeah.
- [17:23]
Spencer Martin
And so is Victor Campenaerts.
- [17:25]
Johan Bernal
Yes.
- [17:26]
Spencer Martin
Is that playing into how they're managing this? Because Jonas is. Jonas, like his body can handle things other people can't. But do these guys have to think about how they spend their energy the rest of this Euro because of that?
- [17:39]
Johan Bernal
I would say. I would think so. I mean, I would definitely take that into account. But you know, it's still, I mean, it's still at. When you have the favorite, when you have the leader, it's the whole peloton against that rider, against your team. You always need to be there when it's, when it really matters. Doesn't matter for how long you need to be there. Right. So today it was, it was impressive. They had four riders on that last climb with 9k to go and every, I mean, the rest was swinging already. So I mean, in terms of strength, it looks pretty good. But yeah, I mean those three riders at least will do the double 000 involved and tour de France.
- [18:20]
Spencer Martin
And if you were Ornamentsman or Henley, how, how would you. Because I don't think they can drop Gall on a climb. How are you going to get rid of goal? How would you approach that?
- [18:30]
Johan Bernal
I mean, they have to try. I would be hopeful. I would be hopeful because, you know, like today Felix Gall tried. He wrote smart. He wrote smart. You know, when he saw he couldn't make any ground, he saw that Bernal was pulling for Arnsman kind of, I mean, I'm not going to say waited for them, but he did start, he did stop his, his effort and, and you know, went to sit on the wheel, which was, which was, you know, smart. But then he finally, he got rid of them at the end with a few seconds. I personally, I mean, I would have expected him a little bit more dominant for that second place, let's not forget. I mean. No, no, he's, he's, he's Austrian. I keep thinking he's Swiss, he's Austrian. So.
- [19:15]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, in his home country of Switzerland, Italian speaking. Switzerland.
- [19:21]
Johan Bernal
Yeah.
- [19:22]
Spencer Martin
I mean, yeah. The thing, the thing that would give me concerns if I was those guys is he has a bad day and Then did you see him accelerate away at the end? It's like he still kind of like has an extra gear they don't have.
- [19:33]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:34]
Spencer Martin
I mean, I think they probably have to try to target him on stage 19, some sort of maneuver, basically do what Red Bull did.
- [19:44]
Johan Bernal
At this point, there's, you know, there's no more tactics, man. It's the legs. The legs who do the talking. In these, especially in these hard mountain stages, there are no tactical choices. You just have to, you know, go, you know, make sure that you're there with the favorites at the bottom of the last climb. And then whoever has the best legs gets it. And one of them will probably have one day where he's, you know, a little less. And that's going to be what makes the difference between third and fourth place, I think. It's not like all of a sudden aren'tsman and Jai Hindley or all of a sudden that much better than Felix Goal. I mean, for the moment, he's still in second.
- [20:25]
Spencer Martin
Don't you think they have to target him on that ascents, though, like a Catalania?
- [20:29]
Johan Bernal
That could be. Yeah, that could be. But it's. It's not easy. And you know, the last week of a. I would, I would see that more in the first part. The first, the first half of a Grand Tour, but then at the end, you know, your body is on autopilot and, you know, but also, and also on the descents, you know, it's not like you have. Even if you're the best descender, you're worn out. And you also need to make sure you don't crash yourself. Right.
- [20:57]
Spencer Martin
That's a very good point.
- [20:58]
Johan Bernal
Yes.
- [20:59]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, that is key. That's. No one ever talks about that. Like, you gotta go after goal in that ascents, like. Well, you can't. You are not immune to the crashing that you're trying to cause. We should also shout out Gregor Mohlberger. This guy's been.
- [21:13]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, I mean, another thing, another thing. Spencer, for example, one situation when if one of those stages, it's bad weather. That's different.
- [21:20]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:21]
Johan Bernal
Then. Then you could say, okay, you know what, we're going to push him here and we'll see if we can, you know, push him so far that he starts to make errors. Yeah.
- [21:29]
Spencer Martin
I don't know if we're gonna get. I don't know. The way Europe is trending this week. I don't know if we're gonna get back.
- [21:34]
Johan Bernal
Let me tell you, man, it's hot. It's hot. Here now, I mean here in Madrid today was 33, 34 degrees. I saw today in, in Italy was 30 degrees in Switzerland. And you know, let's not forget they're in the mountains, you know, so should be a bit cooler. So yeah, it's gonna be, it's, it's very hot in Europe and I think
- [21:57]
Spencer Martin
that's all I have for the stage. Right. Do you have anything else?
- [22:01]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, I think so. You know, fourth stagement for Jonas already 4, 4, 4 wins for him.
- [22:07]
Spencer Martin
Yeah, that's pretty good. He could win every uphill finish at this race.
- [22:12]
Johan Bernal
Well, the thing is, I mean you can also see Spencer, you know, the, the way he is in, he's, he's confident, he's happy, he's smiling. Everything, everything goes smoothly for him now. The way he feels, the way, the way the team is riding, the way they deliver him to the last climb, it's pretty impressive. So he has a reason to be happy.
- [22:33]
Spencer Martin
And who do you think finishes on the podium after today?
- [22:39]
Johan Bernal
I'm still going to say so. Jonas, Felix, G. Hindley. The first three of today, that's probably going to be the podium.
- [22:47]
Spencer Martin
Interesting. You think Ironsman gets dropped or he just gets like paper cut to death by Henley? I mean today at the end, he still puts time into him, you know, who was that? Like Henley, they finished together. But Henley puts three plus he puts seven seconds in Arnsman. You know, if he does that every uphill finish, it's a problem, insignificant.
- [23:06]
Johan Bernal
But it is kind of, you know, an indication of what's to come also. Now, for example, Hindley is now the, the sole protected leader of Red Bull. I think, I think Belizari lost 18 minutes today. No, something. Yeah, he came in, he came in like 18 minutes and he must have,
- [23:29]
Spencer Martin
they must have known this right before the stage. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [23:32]
Johan Bernal
I think so. I think so.
- [23:34]
Spencer Martin
What do you think? It's an ill. I mean, I guess we. It's use. Useless.
- [23:37]
Johan Bernal
I mean it could be an illness. It can be, you know, empty, just out of energy. You know, I've said it already before, you know, he peaked early already and once you're in that downhill spiral, downward spiral, it's, it's not easy. It's like, okay, lights out. No more, nothing more in the tank. Just, you know, survive and make it to the finish.
- [23:58]
Spencer Martin
Well, let's take a quick break and then I'm going to ask you, I have a question for you. Then we're going to talk about tomorrow's stage and who's going to Win. But we'll be right back. So, Johan, tomorrow. Stage Stage 17202 kilometers. Multiple, multiple categorized climbs. One, two, three. None over a cat. Three though. Just three cat. Three climbs and then an uphill finish that I don't think is categorized, which is kind of weird. Two and a half kilometers at 7%. That sounds like a hard climb to me. I wouldn't want to do that in a race. But is Julia, before we talk about the stage, is Julia Chocone going to win a stage here? I mean, he was strong today. He was off the front. He's pushing it. But he, you can tell he wants it potentially too bad because he's just blowing up every move. Look. Starting to look not good for him.
- [24:43]
Johan Bernal
Well, I mean, you know, he's obviously in great shape. He was probably the strongest guy of that breakaway. I think for tomorrow he has, he has one problem and that his problem is called Jonathan Narvais.
- [24:58]
Spencer Martin
Yeah.
- [24:58]
Johan Bernal
For the stage win, Narweis needs to be in the break. We said, you know, he already won three stages but now he's going for the points jersey also. He probably will be in the break with the form he has. And then on a stage like tomorrow, it's more Narvaj terrain than Chicona terrain, I think because those climbs are not. If it's not for real climbers, it's more like an all rounder, a puncher who can climb decently. So yeah, I think tomorrow, you know, dude, it's. It's hard. I. Spencer. I mean 3250 meters. So there's more innovation tomorrow than in today's mountain stage. It's double the distance almost.
- [25:37]
Spencer Martin
But yeah, still in the first climb is hard. It's 8K at 6%. That's not an easy climb.
- [25:44]
Johan Bernal
It's going to be difficult to be in the break. So it's going to be strong riders and I, I'm going to predict that both Narvaeis and Chicone will be in there together with others, the same guys again. You know, Chris Harper looked good. Aiden Rubio looks good. You know, those guys are going to be there again, you know, and then. Yeah, let's see. But I think I'm gonna predict the Jonathan advice for a fourth stage win and tie. Be tied. Tied with Jonas tomorrow for. In terms of stage widths.
- [26:13]
Spencer Martin
I. Yeah, I think that's a good pick. I'm. The only thing is I'm gonna pick Chicone. I don't feel good about it because I feel like he is telegraphing everything too much. But if Narvaez has to go for these sprint points, the sprint point is on top of a 5k long climb. I just worry it's hard to be sprinting mid stage and that you see it with Kom all the time. But then that's also Chicona. He's sprinting for every KoM point. It's hard to do that and win the stage. I'm going to go Chicone that climbs pretty tough. I think this is the stage for Ciccone. If he's going to win one, I think stage 20 is going to be a lot harder. I think stage 18 is going to be too easy. That could be in our VI stage as well. But I'm gonna go Chacone. I. I've been trying a different strategy this, this Giro, not that complex. I wait for the summit finishes and then I bet on Jonas. And it going pretty well. Like, yeah, I couldn't believe today. He was a plus 175 on DraftKings. So you almost triple your money.
- [27:14]
Johan Bernal
Yeah.
- [27:14]
Spencer Martin
And I kind of wonder, like, are the books not fully calc, like calculating that correctly, like how maybe they didn't anticipate Visa to pay so hard. But on 113 kilometer stage, it's much easier versus tomorrow, 202 kilometers. It's very hard.
- [27:29]
Johan Bernal
There is always the possibility that a breakaway gets clear and then all of a sudden this must. You know, what, you know, we're not going to spend the whole team on this. Which I think will be the case tomorrow.
- [27:39]
Spencer Martin
Yes, exactly.
- [27:40]
Johan Bernal
If, you know, tomorrow. If you look at Jonas tomorrow, his odds, that's. They're not going to be up there. You know, they're gonna. They're. I think it's going to be very, very high.
- [27:50]
Spencer Martin
And you see this. I mean, they don't have to control it. They shouldn't control it. That's going to be a long stage. Like over five hours, probably. If not around five hours.
- [28:00]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see this, like four hours
- [28:05]
Spencer Martin
from Lombardia to the base of the Dolomites is almost always a breakaway stage. So I would expect it to be the same tomorrow.
- [28:13]
Johan Bernal
Yeah.
- [28:15]
Spencer Martin
All right, Johan. Well, do you have anything else on the stage?
- [28:20]
Johan Bernal
Not really. I mean, good. Listen, good comeback, good performance of Derek G. I would say, you know, he was good. You know, he's not been there yet at this level for. For one reason or the other, he was, you know, sometimes a bit below expectations. But today he did a great stage today, I think. And he gets closer in the top 10. Is he seven or eight. Now he's six, I think.
- [28:43]
Spencer Martin
Moves up three spots.
- [28:45]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, six. So that's pretty good. You know, that's where he belongs. You know, he's. Derek G. Is, you know, like fourth, fifth or sixth normally in, in this type of race. So it's going to be great for his morale.
- [28:57]
Spencer Martin
And the key, he puts two minutes into a Lalio and he's two, like two minutes, a little under two minutes behind him currently. So he could probably finish fifth if he continues.
- [29:08]
Johan Bernal
He could, yeah, definitely can finish fifth. Yeah.
- [29:11]
Spencer Martin
Which is a good. That's like. To think about where, where Dar G started fourth this year. To tell you fast forward 12 years fifth with Jonas, like, well, that's not so bad. It's like. Well, a lot happened in that 12 months.
- [29:23]
Johan Bernal
Especially the, the way. Especially what happened in between, you know, like the, the offseason, the uncertainty about the team. Then I think a crash probably in, in Catalunya if I'm, if I remember correctly, or something happened to him. I don't remember what.
- [29:37]
Spencer Martin
I think it was a crash in Catalonia.
- [29:39]
Johan Bernal
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:41]
Spencer Martin
You know, which, which affects people more than, you know, like Oscar Onley crashed out of Perry knees, I believe, and then didn't break anything. But it affects. But if you don't break anything, people just kind of like, yeah, whatever, he'll get over it. But it does affect you and it affects how you then prepare for them.
- [29:58]
Johan Bernal
Sometimes, man, if you have an injury, a lingering injury that you can't really find, you put your finger on it. And sometimes it's actually even better to, to have a fractured bone.
- [30:09]
Spencer Martin
Yeah.
- [30:10]
Johan Bernal
You know exactly how long it's going to take to heal rather than something that you're trying to like. Knee injuries are like this. You know, there's. There's some guys that are out with knee injuries. Two, three, four months.
- [30:19]
Spencer Martin
Y.
- [30:20]
Johan Bernal
It's better to break an arm, man.
- [30:22]
Spencer Martin
It is. And it's so like, the soft tissue injuries are so hard to come back from. Like, look at Nielsen Palace. That guy's been on and off for two years at this point with a soft tissue knee problem. Just a personal question for you. Do you prefer this exhibition we're getting from Jonas or would you prefer him not to be here? And we're going into stage 17 with Gaul, Arnsman and Hindley all within a minute of each other for the lead.
- [30:49]
Johan Bernal
I. I prefer, I prefer Jonas. I mean, a Grand Tour deserves a champion winner. Not saying the others, but, you know, um, yeah, I think it's better for the sport, man. If the big. The big names win the races, it's better.
- [31:07]
Spencer Martin
I do tend to agree with you on that. You would think it wouldn't be that way, but I even think the viewing numbers barely. Obviously, the end of last year's zero was unbelievable. And those are some big personalities, like Carapaz, Olympic. You know, he's an Olympic champion. Del Toro, up and coming. Simon Yates. He's. He's won a Grand Tour, so it's not like these were nobodies. But I do think the viewing numbers tend to be better when you have a dominant superstar, which you would not think. You would think it would be the other way around. But Denmark's going to be dialed in on this Giro because.
- [31:38]
Johan Bernal
Oh, yeah.
- [31:39]
Spencer Martin
So. Well. Yeah. Well, thanks, Johan. And we will talk tomorrow about stage 17 and then preview stage 18.